Fame, Suffering, and How to Protect Your Marriage with for KING + COUNTRY

Summary

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Stay True with Madison Prewett Troutt

Episode: Fame, Suffering, and How to Protect Your Marriage with for KING + COUNTRY
Guests: Joel & Luke Smallbone (for KING + COUNTRY)
Date: March 30, 2026
Host: Madison Prewett Troutt

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Episode Overview

Madison welcomes Joel and Luke Smallbone, brothers and members of the Grammy-winning band for KING + COUNTRY, for a rich and authentic discussion on the themes of fame, suffering, faith, and protecting marriage. The conversation is honest and vulnerable, diving into the Smallbones’ immigrant story, their family’s journey from loss in Australia to a new life in Nashville, how suffering and struggle have shaped their faith, and what it means to value marriage and community above the accolades and applause of fame. They offer practical wisdom on staying grounded, intentional, and dependent on God through all seasons—success and hardship alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Smallbone Family Journey: From Australia to Nashville

[06:10 – 08:40]

• Immigrant Story & Early Struggle:
  • Family moved from Australia when Joel was 7 and Luke was 5, after their father’s concert promotion business collapsed.
  • Faced intense hardship in the US: "We were sleeping on beds made out of clothes... weren't always quite sure where the next meal was going to come from. We didn't have a car." — Luke Smallbone [06:39]
• Generosity of Others:
  • Received crucial help from neighbors, including the Smith family—“sometimes [generosity] has generational consequences for the better. And we were the benefactors of so many people’s generosity at that time.” — Luke [07:27]
• Rebecca St. James' Break:
  • Older sister Rebecca’s music career opened doors, with Joel and Luke serving as crew and stage hands, laying the foundation for their own path.

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2. The Genesis of for KING + COUNTRY

[11:52 – 14:53]

• Early Tension, Then Partnership:
  • Joel: "Luke and I... we didn't really get on growing up... We were opposite sides of the same coin... Music's actually the thing that sort of flipped the magnet around the other way that brought us back together." — Joel [12:11, 13:34]
  • Luke’s sports injury was an 'inciting incident' that drew the brothers together creatively and relationally.
• Failures Before Success:
  • “We spent about five years just fumbling and stumbling around, failing as musicians. But that really brought us together.” — Joel [14:26]

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3. Suffering, Faith, and Transformation

[15:53 – 28:01]

• Redemptive View of Suffering:
  • “Sometimes the greatest way I think that God can love you is by allowing you to suffer and go through some struggle.” — Luke [15:45]
• American Attitudes vs. Biblical Truth:
  • “In our Western society, we think we're being punished... but when I read in the Bible, you so see suffering... produces faith, obedience.” — Madison [16:20]
  • “The greatest way you can love your children is by actually allowing them to go through some of those processes.” — Luke [15:53]
• Community in Suffering:
  • Family and community, not individualism, are what enable perseverance:
    “It was actually when dad was weak enough to invite everyone in... that he was actually the suffering that was created…” — Joel [26:29]
• Hopelessness vs. Hope:
  • “If you don't actually, in the midst of suffering, turn to Jesus... you actually end up with more hopelessness.” — Luke [18:31]
• Quote Highlight:
  • “For those doubting and struggle, allow it to do a thorough work. God is so good that he is just that thorough to allow you to go to the end of yourself and allow a good work to be done in your heart.” — Luke [20:31]

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4. The Role of Community and the Church

[28:01 – 28:53]

• The Messy Goodness of Church:
  • “Our generation wants to sort of tear down these institutions... But if you weigh out the pros and cons... there is a lot of healing that can come through it.” — Joel [28:45]
• Healing and Vulnerability:
  • “I was hurt by the church, but I was also healed. When you pray and confess to one another, that is where you find healing.” — Madison [28:53]

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5. Navigating Fame, Praise, and Staying Dependent on God

[30:54 – 34:56]

• Temptations of Success:
  • “It's so easy when you're in the hard to be desperate and dependent on God. And then when you're in the success... you kind of forget to be desperate, independent...” — Madison [30:54]
• Stewarding Gifts:
  • "Did God give you the gifts? So then why are you soaking up the praise?... Are we absorbing the praise or are we reflecting it and giving it right back to him?" — Luke [31:27, 34:56]
  • “Humans are not designed to hear applause, but when it happens, we've got to do something with it. Are we a reflection—do we toss it to heaven?” — Luke [32:23]
• Ongoing Struggle as a Way of Life:
  • “I don't ever feel that gifted... I feel like we try to steward the opportunities that God's given.” — Luke [32:10]

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6. Marriage & Family: Staying Grounded and Protecting What Matters Most

[36:56 – 46:47]

• Including Their Wives:
  • Their wives are partners in the band’s journey—featured in music and providing critical support.
• Lasting Love Over Instant Sparks:
  • “There's a lot of emphasis in this culture on the infancy of love... but what about the love that lasts?... That is a real love to celebrate.” — Joel [39:50]
• Marriage Wisdom:
  • Be equally yoked, practice vulnerability, forgive quickly, avoid the “slow drift,” and preserve fun and intentionality.
  • “Men are usually the ones letting the side down...not willing to look at themselves in the mirror... slow drift is the most dangerous thing in marriage.” — Luke [45:16]
  • “Play the game of who can forgive first… Your words really, really matter.” — Madison [46:47]

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7. The Value of Struggle, Endurance, and Character

[52:17 – 55:25]

• Everything Worthwhile is Uphill:
  • “Everything worthwhile is uphill... If you get it easy, it's not as sweet and your heart maybe isn't as pure because you didn't have to go through the depending on God and the hardships.” — Madison [52:17]
• Allegory of the Trees:
  • "Scientists gave a tree the perfect environment—no wind, no storms—and it would fall over. Struggle and the elements make the roots bear down... if you don't face storms, you never really grow strong." — Joel [53:36]

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8. Serving, Creating, and Embracing the Unsung

[59:03 – 63:22]

• Upcoming Projects:
  • New film “Drummer Boy” and a forthcoming album—themselves seasons of harvest, not just labor.
  • “At some point the seeds that are planted do have to be harvested. We think this is the year of harvest.” — Luke [59:27]
• Everyone’s Gift Matters:
  • “There are parts of the body that are more seen—doesn’t mean more important... Are you stewarding the gift you’ve been given to edify Christ?” — Madison [61:55]

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9. Closing Thoughts & Prayer

[64:43 – 65:35]

• Dependence Through Highs and Lows:
  • “That you see them, you love them, you care for them—that whatever they might be going through, whether it is the greatest heights or the lowest of lows, that you're with them. You're with them in both.” — Luke (prayer) [64:43]

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Notable Quotes

• “Music's actually the thing that sort of flipped the magnet around the other way that kind of brought us back together.”
  — Joel Smallbone [13:34]

• “Sometimes the greatest way I think that God can love you is by allowing you to suffer and go through some struggle.”
  — Luke Smallbone [15:45]

• “When you get into the Galilean accent of the Jesus story... the tenet to that story was that we did it together. We weren't individuals.”
  — Joel Smallbone [25:04]

• “If you don't actually, in the midst of suffering, turn into Jesus... you actually end up with more hopelessness.”
  — Luke Smallbone [18:31]

• “Are we absorbing the praise, or are we reflecting it and giving it right back to him?”
  — Madison Prewett Trout [34:56]

• “Everything worthwhile is uphill.”
  — Madison's mom (quoted) [52:17]

• “Struggle and the elements make the roots bear down... if you don't face storms, you never really grow strong.”
  — Joel Smallbone [54:22]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Family’s arrival in Nashville & struggle: 06:10 – 08:40
• Band formation & sibling dynamics: 11:52 – 14:53
• Suffering and faith (personal stories, perspective): 15:53 – 28:01
• Navigating fame & humility: 30:54 – 34:56
• Marriage and prioritizing family: 36:56 – 46:47
• The allegory of trees & struggle: 53:36 – 55:25
• Upcoming projects & finding purpose in serving: 59:03 – 63:22
• Closing prayer: 64:43 – 65:35

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Memorable Moments

• Homeschooler “unreasonable confidence” and sibling rivalry led to the band’s formation [12:06, 13:34]
• Luke’s story of his infant son’s medical emergency and miraculous recovery [19:10]
• Lighthearted reflections on favorite siblings and “peacemaker” roles in the Smallbone family [04:11]
• Madison and guests sharing practical and vulnerable advice for marriage [41:46]
• Closing with spontaneous fun—matching socks and intentionality in even the little things [63:23]
• Joel’s tree allegory connecting science and spirituality [53:36]

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

The episode is genuinely vulnerable, encouraging, and conversational—marked by humor, humility, and wisdom grounded in faith. The Smallbone brothers and Madison normalize wrestling with struggle, the temptation of pride, marriage challenges, and the need for strong community. Listeners are reminded: suffering isn't evidence of God's absence but can be a mark of His love; success must be stewarded with humility; and love—whether in marriage, family, or community—demands intentionality, forgiveness, and faith over the long haul.

Best to experience with comfy sweats, a favorite snack, and an open heart.

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Transcript

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[Joel Smallbone]

With Instacart, we didn't really get on growing up. We were opposite sides of the same coin. You know, I've always had to work for everything in my life really hard. When it came time to, like, invite him in, I just was annoyed.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

How do you stay desperate and dependent upon the Lord in the good seasons and in the successful seasons?

[Luke Smallbone]

Dad lost that job that we moved for, and so we were on the other side of the world and their friends and their family. It was pretty difficult times for us. You know, we were sleeping on beds made out of clothes. You know, weren't always quite sure where the next meal was going to come from.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

How do you lip suffering on its head to see it as I'm going to let this produce more faith?

[Luke Smallbone]

Did God give you the gifts? So then why are you soaking up the praise?

[Joel Smallbone]

And music's actually the thing that sort of flipped the magnet around the other way that kind of brought us back together sometimes.

[Luke Smallbone]

The greatest way I think that God can love you is by allowing you to suffer and go through some struggle.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of the Stay True podcast. I'm your host and Madison Pruitt Trout and I have with me in the podcast studio in a new setup. By the way, I have two new friends that I'm so excited for this episode for you guys to get to hear from. We have Joel and Luke Smallbone here for King and Country. I'm so, so excited. You guys have multiple Grammy awards. You guys have multiple number one hits. You guys have the new unsung hero film, which I saw, which was amazing, by the way, and also received awards. And so I am so excited for this con conversation. We were talking right before this. Luke and I have met before, but I have not met Joel.

[Joel Smallbone]

Never.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

This is.

[Joel Smallbone]

But it is weird. Okay. There's. This is. There's a lot going on here.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah. I wish I would have heard the prior conversation. Honestly.

[Joel Smallbone]

This is a big deal because we've got these microphones. You. This is your new setup. It's a new season. It's the spring.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah.

[Joel Smallbone]

So if you're not. If you're not watching, if you're just listening, you need to jump on YouTube and watch because she's got this, like, the Stay true situations here box microphone.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

But I've met. Okay, so I've met Luke, and I've also met your sister Rebecca, because we were at this conference together and speaking together, and she was singing. I was speaking, and then we had this.

[Luke Smallbone]

No, a different event.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Different event.

[Joel Smallbone]

Okay.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

We talked a lot.

[Joel Smallbone]

You don't know me, but I know you.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Oh, no, but I've seen you on movies. So listen, there's so many. There's so many things. We've seen each other from afar.

[Joel Smallbone]

It might not be prudent to get this out of the way so soon, but for a time, my wife and I were Bachelor fans.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

We were.

[Joel Smallbone]

And we felt like the season you were a part of was like the last great season. And I'm sure very heartbreaking as well. But that's why I say so. You've seen us on.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

You know, I know it's a whole fun. Because I've seen. I. I feel like I've seen a lot of actually of the movies that you've been in, because I've seen Unsung Hero, seen Priceless, Very passionate about human trafficking and get into all that. And then I've also seen A Journey to Bethlehem. So, you know, probably others, but, like, you know, I've seen a lot of them.

[Joel Smallbone]

Well, it's. It's. It's finally nice to have us all in the room because I feel like we've been splinters just all over the place. Yeah.

[Luke Smallbone]

I mean, we've met three small bones. There's seven of us. But so far, you gotta favorite.

[Joel Smallbone]

You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Which one's your favorite?

[Joel Smallbone]

It's all right. Luke can be your favorite.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Does he. Is he, like, everyone's fate is that how it typically.

[Luke Smallbone]

I'm very intrigued to know the answer to this.

[Joel Smallbone]

Luke is the peacemaker if we're gonna get. And I'm sort of the little engine that could like I'm the deprived middle child.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Okay. Yeah. What is the.

[Luke Smallbone]

I'm the third youngest in the family.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Third youngest.

[Luke Smallbone]

And Joel is next one up. So he's the directly in the middle. There's three. So it's. Rebecca is the oldest star.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Okay. She is the oldest.

[Luke Smallbone]

She's the oldest.

[Joel Smallbone]

And then there's five boys.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah, five boys in the middle. Yeah.

[Joel Smallbone]

Ends with a girl.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

She's a rock star. Star.

[Joel Smallbone]

She's a rock star.

[Luke Smallbone]

Rebecca, Daniel, Ben, Joel, me. I got a little brother Josh, little sister Libby.

[Joel Smallbone]

And all those siblings are actually my siblings as well.

[Luke Smallbone]

Love that I sometimes do that. I say my and he's right here. That's gets a little weird but.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Well, I remember when we were on this panel, Rebecca was talking about how there was like a film coming out about her family and she is so humble cuz she just downplayed that film. So she's just like, yeah, this like films coming out. And I'm really, you know, looking forward to it and hoping that the Lord uses it. And I'm like, girl, I watched that movie and I was like, this is the film that you guys were talking about. I mean you guys just did such an. It was amazing. It truly was amazing and inspired me in so many ways. And I want to talk about some of the themes that were woven throughout it. But first I want to hear for those who maybe haven't seen the movie. I mean don't give away all the things because they should go watch. If you haven't seen Unsung Hero, you should go watch it. But I want to hear some of your family's stories as well as Yalls story and how you came to starting the band for King and country and just, you know, whatever you want to get into just where you are today.

[Joel Smallbone]

And we're going to get into all

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

the things my husband laughs at me because we'll sit down at dinner and I've like seen him all and I'm like tell me everything.

[Joel Smallbone]

Everything.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And he's like, mariah.

[Joel Smallbone]

And I do the same thing. Every detail. I want to hear what happened.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joel Smallbone]

And I'm probably going to tell you every detail of usually I like when

[Luke Smallbone]

my wife does that, I'm like, I mean it's not that interest. She's like, I still want to know Anyway. So originally born in Australia and our dad was a concert promoter in Australia. And on one particular tour that he brought back to Australia, the tour didn't go very well, and we lost everything that we had as a family. And so he was looking for a fresh start for his career and for the family and got a job offer actually here in Nashville, Tennessee. We originally lived actually from this house.

[Joel Smallbone]

We actually indirectly lived in this same community.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah, yeah, like, well, 30 years ago. It wasn't quite as nice as it is now. So anyway, we moved here and moved for a job, and then soon after we arrived, dad lost that job that we moved for. And so we're on the other side of the world. No friends, no family. It was pretty difficult times for us. You know, we were sleeping on beds made out of clothes. You know, weren't always quite sure where the next meal was going to come from. We didn't have a car. And, you know, the list went on and on and on. And the film kind of talks about that story is just kind of how we kind of figured it out here. You know, there's a lot of people that were extremely generous to us, you know, and I think generosity. Sometimes we forget that, you know, generosity impacts us as people, but we forget sometimes the.

[Joel Smallbone]

The.

[Luke Smallbone]

The people that are on the receiving end of that generosity, sometimes it has generational consequences for the better. And we were the benefactors of so many people's generosity at that time. So our sister, soon after, in that kind of being here for a few years, she started, you know, as an artist. She got signed to a record deal, and we were still all fairly new to America. And mom and dad were like, well, you know, if we're going to do this, we're all going to go out on the road together. And so Joel and I were crew guys for most of our childhood child labor laws. I was running a spotlight. I think I was 9 or 10. You know, I think I was a lighting guy, head lighting guy at 14 or something. We did the stupidest things, but it was the foundation to kind of what we're doing now. And I played basketball growing up in. In high school. And then one year I tore my ACL and kind of realized that God didn't want me to play basketball anymore. And then Joel had been working on some music and actually came and said, hey, man, what do you think about working on some music together? And in some cases, you know, the rest is. Is history. We kept it. It was pretty rough there for a few, few, few years, us working together, lots of failure. But here we are now chatting with you.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Before we get started today, I have an exciting announcement here on Stay True podcast. I am introducing an additional episode each week. Woo. I'm so excited. So you guys can check back every Thursday morning for episodes from me or Grant or us together. And it will be like our own mini Bible study time together. I'm so, so excited. We will study and read scripture, we will speak, spend time in prayer. And I want you to think of these episodes as this quick reset for your heart and your mind that will just set you up for an amazing day. You will grow deeper in your love and knowledge for the word of God. We will spend time together in prayer and reflection. And these shorter episodes we will be addressing lies we hear questions we carry the weights we all feel and what God actually says about it. All these will be short and simple and really intentional episodes. Something you can listen to on your way to work while you're getting ready or. Or just when you need a peaceful moment in the middle of the day. Cause I know I need that too. And my heart is that these Thursday episodes become a consistent place that you can come to be grounded, encouraged and reminded of what's true. And now my Monday episodes are typically interviews with amazing guests. But I'm so excited to now have these Thursday episodes to have time to just open the word and grow in the truth together. I'll see y' all Thursday morning. That's so powerful.

[Joel Smallbone]

All led us to this point.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I know this is like, for sure the like peak.

[Joel Smallbone]

This is the end.

[Luke Smallbone]

Here we are.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Man, that is amazing. So you guys were how old when you moved to the US?

[Joel Smallbone]

Luke was five.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah, nearly five.

[Joel Smallbone]

We were young, young lads. I was, I was seven. It was the 90s. And I mean we've gone back a load obviously since all our relatives are back there, our grandparents are back there. They've since passed. So it's still very much this kind of magical land for us and home. But yeah, this is where we married Americans. Luke's created four half American children. You've got some catching up to do.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I do, yeah.

[Joel Smallbone]

And it's Nashville particularly. This town has been really kind to us. The people have been kind to us. Fun fact. Going back to unsung hero, Luke mentioned that there were some, just some people that were really kind to us early in our time here. And we'd mentioned that our home, our first home here was this depicted in the film was in this community. The Smiths, Kay and Ed Smith and their family, literally their houses across the road from you.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Wow.

[Joel Smallbone]

It's like right here at the front

[Luke Smallbone]

of the street, that is that house.

[Joel Smallbone]

I think it's one of those houses across the road.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Crazy.

[Joel Smallbone]

So they were in the film. Again, we're getting way ahead of ourselves because most of you probably haven't seen the film, so this means you need to go watch the film. But in the film, it was Jed and K. Yeah, those two characters right there.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Wait, that's crazy. That's wild. Good old Brentwood, Tennessee.

[Luke Smallbone]

Brentwood, Tennessee.

[Joel Smallbone]

It's all happening here, everyone.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Man, that's amazing. And how did you guys. Okay, so you kind of came to Luke and you were like, what do you think about making music together? When. What was that conversation? Like, how did you come.

[Luke Smallbone]

There's a little bit more to it than what I made it out to.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It's so casual, you know, Listen.

[Joel Smallbone]

No, I didn't. So I. I had worked on music a lot of my life. So when we. We started with Rebecca, our sister, I was the. The stage manager, and then I became the background vocalist.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Okay.

[Joel Smallbone]

And Luke and I were both homeschooled. And look, shout out to homeschoolers. We love home. Were you homeschooling?

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I wasn't home.

[Joel Smallbone]

Okay, fair enough. So we're a very peculiar bunch, and I love us like we're world changes us homeschoolers. But you. I. You can develop something I call unreasonable confidence as a homeschooler, where you have no right to be as confident as you are. You just are. And I had an extra dose of that unreasonable. So I just thought I was going to conquer the world. Sixteen years old, I was like, it was the era of boy bands. I was like, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. Either be in a boy band or start my own boy band. Then about 21, dad, who manages Rebecca, also is part of our management team. He came to me and he said, hey, I really think you should work with your little brother Luke. And I was like, nah, I don't think so. And look in. So Luke and I had. We didn't really get on growing up. Like, we were. We were opposite sides of the same coin. You know when you flip magnets around the wrong way, and instead of, like, attaching. They replaced. They repelled each other. That was Luke and me. And music's actually the thing that sort of flipped the magnet around the other way that kind of brought us back together. So dad was just really persistent, and Luke had, in my memory, at least a dose of that unreasonable confidence as well, which was very annoying to me because he's really good at everything. You can't see him when he's sitting that he's. He's six foot tall, six foot four. Excuse me. He's a great sportsman. He's got a great voice. He kind of has that natural knack. He can do anything really easily.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Those people.

[Joel Smallbone]

Those people.

[Luke Smallbone]

This is so nice. I've never heard him say these things before.

[Joel Smallbone]

Yeah, you're hearing it right now. I'm staying true, guys, but, you know, I've always had to work for everything in my life. Really, really hard. You know, things didn't come quick to me. So when it came time to, like, invite him in, he just. I just was annoyed. He got taller than me, all the things. Better sportsman than me. And so, like. No, no, no, no. And then, like you mentioned, he tore his ACL in his. Like, it was his first game of his junior year. He was like. I was gonna go. He was probably. Probably would have been a great sportsman. Well, he was. And there was something about that, like, was over the Christmas holidays, and it was really sad. He was. And he was heartbroken. He was. Because we all. He went to mom. He's like, we all the kids have their thing and I don't have my thing. And so it was kind of that. It's funny. That was the inciting incident. Isn't it funny how tragedy tends to, like, create.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Oh, yeah.

[Joel Smallbone]

Intimacy and connection and, and, and. And I imagine if it weren't for his torn acl, we might not be sitting here today. And what's cool is, again, the magnets flipped. And then we spent about five years just fumbling and stumbling around, failing as musicians. But that really brought us together. You know, we fell in love. Both of us kind of met, fell in love with our spouses during that time. And then a few years after, for King, country was formed.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Man, that's crazy. It's so true that you say that, though, because so often it's like when you hit the lowest moment or when you're going through something really hard where you really get to the end of yourself and you're like, who am I? What. What it. What am I here to do? And I feel like that's even similar to my husband's story. He was playing basketball in college at UC Santa Barbara and wanted to, like, keep playing and all the things. Was doing really well and had a career ending injury. And it was, like, devastating and sent him on a really bad spiral. But it was in that spiral where he got to the end of himself and found God And I'm like, it's so crazy to think about. I'm like, if you hadn't had that injury, how different, you know, would life be? And it sounds so similar to, to what you guys are saying. And such a testament to, like, God works all things together.

[Joel Smallbone]

Yeah. Imagine you. You two wouldn't be together.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Right.

[Joel Smallbone]

And you wouldn't have created a little human. Right. Like, think about all that.

[Luke Smallbone]

Sometimes the greatest way I think that God can. Can love you is by allowing you to suffer and go through some struggle.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

So true.

[Luke Smallbone]

And, you know, I think in our Western society, we think we're being punished. But, you know, obviously, even having kids, the greatest way you can love your kids is to raise them up the way that they should be raised, teach them right from wrong. And if you're doing that, there's going to be discipline, there's going to be a little, you know, pain, there's going to be some hardship. But it's. The greatest way you can love your children is by actually allowing them to go through some of those. Those processes.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

You know, that's so good because I talk about it often on the podcast of how we, especially in America, I feel like, run from suffering. And we see it as God is withholding something good from us or God is punishing us from. For something. And I, when I read in the Bible, when I read through Scripture, it's like, man, you so see suffering and persecution tied to, you know, learning obedience, true obedience. It says in Hebrews 5 that Jesus learned obedience through what he suffered. You see all throughout Scripture just the. What suffering produces. And I feel like that's even something that was really interwoven so beautifully in the film Unsung Hero of kind of persevering through adversity and setbacks and, you know, suffering and all of the different things. And I'd love to touch on that a little bit because I know so many people listening can feel that or, you know, either have or are currently going through something that feels really, really hard where they're asking God, like, where are you? Why does this feel so hard? Why have you not shown up in this way? And suffering can, I think, oftentimes make us question our faith or question God's goodness instead of the. The opposite of, you know, when it talks about in Scripture, like, let suffering produce all of these amazing things. I feel like so many times, often it produces not amazing things. It produces, produces doubt, it produces fear, it produces control, it produces all of these other things. And so what was something you guys learned with Your family and in your own lives of how do you kind of flip suffering on its head to see it as. I'm gonna let this produce more faith. I'm gonna let this drive me to my knees. Independence. I'm gonna choose to trust God even when I don't see how this could turn out for good.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, for me and Joel may have a different answer. I often try to, to think through the opposite of that question. Meaning, okay, so if I don't lean into Jesus, what's the alternative? Continual hopelessness. Because if you don't actually in the midst of suffering, turn into, you know, turn to Jesus, turn to what is actually true, you actually end up with.

[Joel Smallbone]

That was a little low key shout

[Luke Smallbone]

out to actually true.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Come on, you know, I love it.

[Luke Smallbone]

You actually end up with more hopelessness. Hopelessness continues to breed more and more hopelessness, greater distance from who Jesus is. And so I think for us, you know, when we were kids, you know, I could talk about more recent suffering, but when we were kids, I don't think we really realized how bad it was. It was kind of some grand adventure. Now I do remember always realizing that we were poor. And I realized that anytime we had an extra, if we found $20 like Joel did in the grocery store, we were going to pick it up and give it to mom and dad. We remember the first time that we were paid for some of the work that we were doing, but usually we would just go do what we're doing, give everything to mom and dad, and away we went. It's not until later on in life and in some cases, my suffering is an interesting word because suffering is relative. Suffering in America compared to other cultures is very, very different. So I'm very careful to use the word suffering. But the struggle in my life actually took place for the most part when we started working as Fikian country. I got very, very sick when I was, you know, early stages of, of, of the band and had to come off the road for three or four months. And soon after that, you know, my wife went through her own kind of individual journey, which was challenging. I nearly lost our two month old son. He woke up and he had blood coming out of his nose, not breathing. And my wife, you know, prayed these amazing prayers over him, like came back to life, took him to the hospital. Then they said, hey, he's going to need a crazy surgery at 6 months old. I've had vocal surgery, I've had, you know, we've had all sorts of crazy things happen. But for Me, I think I've had the gift of a little bit of struggle because, you know, one thing I would like to correct at times for people who think they're being punished when there's a level of suffering. Job, basically, there's no one who struggled more, who had more struggle than Job. And if you remember at the beginning of that book, what is it talking about? I love this man so much, and he loves me so much that even if you were to put him through all of this, he will still choose me. We forget that. So in some cases, the mantle that Job and he had to walk through a lot of stuff was the mantle of love. This one here is set apart. I love him so much. He will not depart from me. So I think for some of us when we walk through these things and the other thing I will say for people that are, are doubting and struggle, allow it to do a thorough work. You know, God is so good that he is just that thorough to allow you to go to the end of yourself and, you know, allow a good work to be done with, in your, in your heart and in your mind through the suffering that God allows to take place in your life.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I want to talk directly to the college women listening right now who love Jesus and are craving more intentional community. This is for you. Delight Ministries is a college women's community with chapters on over 200 college campuses. Each chapter hosts host weekly gatherings with incredible curriculum written just for college women. This gathering unites women on your campus and creates vulnerable conversation centered around Jesus. They also host worship events and fun gatherings that create a true sense of community. It's a place you can be known, challenged and can ultimately change the culture of your entire campus. I know for me, some of the most impactful seasons in my faith came through being in community with other women who were chasing after Jesus. And sometimes stepping into that starts with one simple yes, even when it feels a little scary. And here's the really cool part. If there isn't a Delight chapter already on your campus, you could be the one to start it. Here's how it works. Fill out an interest form. You'll get connected with your own delight coach who will equip and train you to build a team, become an official campus org, and hopefully see hundreds of girls gathering together in the name of Jesus at your school. If you get the sense that God is calling you to be a leader on your campus, head to delightministries.com start a delight to get started today. It's crazy to think about what God could do through your simple yes, that's delightministries.com start a delight to see revival on your campus. Before we get back to the episode, I want to share something really special with you, especially as we head into Easter. There's a podcast called the Christ and it's honestly such a powerful way to experience the story of Jesus. This isn't your typical Bible podcast. It's cinematic four part audio drama that brings the Gospel to life from the manger all the way to the resurrection. And it's done with incredible storytelling, music and sound design that really pulls you in. It traces the life, death and legacy of Jesus through moments of courage, suffering, betrayal and hope and really highlights how his story didn't just change history, it redefined love, sacrifice and what it means to live with purpose. The cast is amazing. You guys have to check it out. The whole series unfolds across four episodes, releasing during Holy Week starting March 30th. So here's what I'd encourage you to do. Go ahead and open your podcast app, search the Christ and follow the show so you don't miss it. It's a really beautiful way to slow down and reflect on the story of Jesus this Easter season. It's so true. I. I don't think we get true deep dependence on God and also even like the fruitfulness that we can experience and obtain on this side of eternity without a level of suffering. And like you said, suffering so relative. And I think so often we can be so obsessed with our own lives and in our own world that we're only thinking about ourselves all the time. And so our suffering feels so big and it feels so much harder than other people's. But scripture is just, it's so encouraging. So often when it's just like, hey, you will experience trouble. Take heart, I've overcome the world. Hey, count it all, joy. Count it all as joy. I mean, just what you're going through, you're not the only one. Your brothers and sisters all around the world are going through the same kind of temptations and struggles. I mean, scripture just reminds us like, hey, you're not in this alone. Like those who were before you, like went through it too. And as you read stories like Job, I just recently went through that. And I love that you pointed out that it was actually God's love for him. It was actually his righteousness, you know, that set him apart and that the Lord entrusted that suffering to him and let him go through that. And he still chose God, but he still had moments, you know, he had his moments, and we're going to have our moments. And I think that's. That's such a powerful reminder. So thank you for. For sharing that. Any. Any other thoughts or things you would add to that.

[Joel Smallbone]

Oh, I like what he said. I. I want to go back to something you said earlier, too, and that is talking about the culture that we find ourselves in, because there's this weird cognitive dissonance between what it means to be Jesus follower and what it means to be, I dare say, part of the Western culture or even American, because as. As Luke mentioned, if you're suffering in this culture, it represents, okay, this is a problem. You're doing something wrong, like, something's broken. It's very based on, and built on an individualistic mindset. Like, have it your way. You know, we're being promoted, this sort of thing every day, all day. And yet when you get into the sort of. The alcohol, the Galilean accent of. Of the Jesus story, or if you want to come back to the unsung hero story, like, if you want to pull the tenant to that story, it was that we did it together. We weren't individuals. It was actually when dad was trying to be the he man and sort of. And spoiler alert, for those of you don't know what we're talking about. I play our dad in the film. And so it's. That was a whole other excursion we could talk about. But. But what I realized, even in playing him, was that when he was trying to do it on his own, trying to be the guy, it didn't work. It was actually when he was weak enough to invite everyone in, in this case, his family and the community, that he was actually the suffering that was created. And partly, by the way, I need to recognize we do create our own suffering a lot of the time. The truth is, like, trouble will find you, but sometimes you created your own trouble. And that's okay.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

That is true.

[Joel Smallbone]

Like, I look back on our life and my life, like, a lot of the time I created my own trouble. But that's the beauty of God again, he's not. He's not sitting there going, well, that's on you, man. You did that one. He's sitting, going, hey, like, I'm standing at the door and knocking, like, I'm. I'm still here. And all things work together for good. Like, for those love him and, And. And there's that beautiful redemption. Like, I think Luke and I are two, you know, brothers and the band, and anything we've done is sort of the follow on of this great redemption story of great suffering. But then out of that suffering, not isolating. I think when you talked about like anger and shame and, and loneliness and depression, all those things happen in isolation. Like the enemy just wants to trying to get you away from the rest of the crew. And the two things we learned was, yeah, there will be suffering. But then when there is suffering, if you pull together with people that you love and that there's trust and understanding, it's incredible what you can do, you know, and what you can overcome.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

So true. Because, yeah, we can't do it alone. And I think so often we think we can. And it's only when we get to the end of ourselves and we're like, actually, I'm so weak and apart from him, I can do nothing. And also apart from community, I can only go so far. And so having those people, having, you know, your, your family, your church, your local church, having those people around you is so, so important. I want to talk about.

[Joel Smallbone]

And it's messy too. It's not. You get into the church environment, you know, we, that's another area that I feel like we've started really focusing on, on sort of dismantling the infrastructures of these great. They're not corporations, but like the church being this, this sort of. What's the word I'm looking for, Luke? An institution. Our generation wants to sort of tear down these institutions. Institutions are actually, there's, there's really good things about institutions. There's also really tough things about institutions. But I think if you weigh out the pros and cons of, you know, take the church, for instance. It's not perfect.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah.

[Joel Smallbone]

But you will find there's, there is a lot of healing. You got to keep your wits about you, but there is a lot of healing that can come through it, you know, oh, 100%.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I, I say on this podcast a lot, you know, I was hurt by the church, but I was also healed. You know, I experienced a lot of church hurt. I experienced rejection and betrayals and gossips and all kind of things within the church body. But I've also found healing within the church. And James 5:16 tells us that, you know, when you pray for one another and confess to one another, that is where you find, heal, healing. You can't do that in isolation. You can't do that by yourself. And so, you know, we, we have that relationship with the Lord to find the forgiveness that we need, but we have relationship with godly community to find the freedom that we need. And that we were made for, to be able to continue to walk out that freedom. And that is such an important part, especially when you're going through hard seasons. And so for anybody listening, like, would just so encourage you if you find yourself in a hard season, it's the easiest thing to want to pull away and like, isolate yourself, but press in, find your community, get plugged into a local church. And even if you've been hurt by a church in the past, like you said, churches aren't perfect, people aren't perfect. But we were made to do life together. And so just like pushing past that is, is so important. I want to talk about. So you guys have, like you mentioned when you first started, you know, you experienced some failures, some setbacks. It was hard, but now, I mean, I said it in the intro, like, you guys have experienced a lot of success, success, a lot of awards, a lot of blessing, a lot of opportunity. And it's not always true that when you go through something hard, there's going to be, you know, this, like, great reward and great success. And I never want that to necessarily be like, you know, the message. Because what is reward? Right? Like reward. How do you measure that? Jesus is the reward. Right. And. But at the same time, you guys have had an opportunity to impact a lot of people. How do you now kind of on this side of things? I think it's so easy when you're in the hard to be so desperate and dependent on God. And then when you're in the really good and in the success, you kind of forget your, you know, that you need him to kind of forget to be desperate, independent because you're like, well, I've kind of, like, I've kind of

[Joel Smallbone]

made it, figured it out.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I've kind of figured some things out. And I'm now being praised for my gifts. I'm now being recognized for the things that I bring to the table. And so I guess it's a few questions within that of just how do you stay desperate and dependent upon the Lord even when in the good seasons and in the successful seasons. And how do you also resist the temptation of allowing other people's praise to, you know, kind of be that thing that makes you feel good and important? And how do you resist that by continuing to remember, like, your why and what it's all for?

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah, well, I'll take a stab. I think that we've got to remember, do you praise the person who has been given a gift or praise the person who is actually giving the gifts to the person? Because the thing is, for me, I don't know about Joel, but I don't actually ever feel that gifted. I don't actually ever feel that talented. I feel like I try to hard with the opportunities that God's given. But I don't know about you, Joel, but I don't feel like. I feel like that we've arrived or I don't feel like there's been because I try not to ever really look at charts. It's not really helpful for the soul. Awards are extremely uncomfortable because it'll all burn. None of it will last. And so I think I actually joke about this a lot, you know, you know what, what, what? Where are you storing up your treasure? You know? And so when everybody does something nice, I say, I look forward to visiting your castle in heaven. You know, like it's a joke, but I think it is a mindset. Like, where did God give you the gifts? So then why are you soaking up the praise? Because at the end of the day, what you really should do is when people are. Should is a difficult word. But when people are throwing applause your way. And once again, I think that humans are not designed to hear applause, but when it happens, we've got to do something with it. Do we, do we absorb it or are we a reflection that we take it and we toss it to heaven? Because I think it's very, very important for us to actually, when someone comes up and says, great job, to not go and say, man, I'm actually worthless. Because at the same time you're actually saying that the talents that God gives you are worthless. No, he's given those talents to you and he actually wants you to give an account for those talents later on in life. To say, hey, I gave you something very special. What did you do with it? But I think it's very important for us to recognize that it's a gift that God gave that we are to steward. And I think the thing that we try to, to the best of our ability, we don't do this perfectly is man. Are we stewarding our time well? Are we stewarding our gifts well? Are we stewarding our relationships? Well, how am I as a father? You know, do my kids look up and, and say, that's a man that I aspire to be like, because he loves who Jesus is. So when it comes to struggle, we've never really felt the reprie of fully. Hey, I don't struggle anymore. Because at the end of the day, we live on earth and it's difficult. There's all sorts of difficult things going on. I have been given the gift, obviously, to be married and to be a father. And that's gonna always come with a rub of I'm failing my wife. I'm failing as a father here. Lord, help me lead them, help me love them, help me be selfish, help me to forgive, help me to do these types of things. So, you know, long story short, I don't feel like we live in a stage where Fikian countries got this thing figured out. I feel very similar now to the way that I did early on. Where I want to now take as I'm, you know, I'm 39, getting ready to go into my 40th year or 40th decade. How am I stewarding the things that God's given me? And I hope to ask the same question when I'm getting my 50s. Hey, how am I stewarding what God's given me in my 50s? Because God's given me something. What am I going to do with it? And that's my hope. With. With what, you know, what we. What we rap, what we wrestle with now. That's how I hope we wrestle with it.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

That's so good. I love that you're talking about focusing more on the giver of the gift than the gift itself, because it's so easy to focus on the gift itself, you know, and to feel the pressure to live up to that gift. And it's like, oh, if I just remember that he is the. The good gift giver, he's the one who gave me the gift. Therefore, he's going to be the one that empowers me and sustains me and carries me through to be able to steward this gift well. And I think that's such a good reminder. As James 1:17 tells us, like, every good and perfect gift comes from above. It's from him. And being reminded of that and not focusing as much on the gift as you do on him and just letting it be. I love that you said, like, are you absorbing the praise or are you reflecting it and giving it right back to him? Him who is the one who's worthy of. Of the praise. So that was. That was so powerful. Thanks for sharing that. I would love to kind of go into another direction with Unsung Hero of another theme that I kind of took away from the. The film. And you were touching on. On it with just family and husband and father. And I admire just the way that you guys prioritize your marriages and your families. It just. It feels so evident to anyone who's Seen you from afar. And, I mean, I haven't known you that well from up close, but I'm sure is those who get to walk with you up close and personal. And I just saw your new release song, which is ever before. I just watched the music video, and I had chills. I was like, this is gonna be everyone's favorite song for weddings. I was like, this is gonna be, like, so many first dances. So many. So I'm really excited about this song. But it just was evident even in watching the music video and in just the way that you guys, I don't know, really prioritize family and the way I saw it even in the film. And so I'd love to kind of park there for a second of how do you prioritize your family and your marriages in the midst of touring and, you know, acting and songwriting and traveling and all the different things that. That you do.

[Joel Smallbone]

Yeah, there's a lot to it. I feel like we could ask you the same question. Like, it's a. It's a juggle. And what's been beautiful. I mentioned earlier that Luke met Courtney and I met Mariah, right as we were sort of stumbling and fumbling around in the dark with the band. So as a result, we've been sojourners with them. I mean, they're so much. They're partners in fiki and country. So we've had these couple opportunities to do these songs, as we call them, kind of quartets, literally, because it's the four of us. One was pioneers a few years ago on the Burn the Ships album then. And then the second time to sing ever and ever Before. But what. What's so special is these songs are really an expression of what is. Like, what. When you. When you get back behind the curtain of what for King, country is. It's like, it's Courtney, and it's not, you know, Courtney's function at points. Luke's wife has. Has been. Yes to. To raise the kids. They bring them out on the road a lot, and that's been very key, and that's the way she's partnered with the band. But that, you know, the way she's poured into Luke's life, the way she's poured into these songs, the way she's, you know, even poured into women similar to you. She has her own book with Technicolor Woman, and she. She's doing so much so. And my wife is no exception. She has just. I remember early days going to him going, like, should I really do this thing with My brother, like, you know, and should we be. Should we be doing this type of music? We started out as sort of a indie pop band, and because we have such a heart for going, you know, beyond. We love the church. We're going beyond the four walls of the church, hence some of the films and whatnot. But. And she was one of the biggest advocates of going. Absolutely. Like, you. You need. You need. This is important. Your voice is important in this as a. As a duo, as a family. And from that day to this, just her continual enthusiasm and passion for the song. I remember we've been working on a new album, and I remember playing her one of the songs. One was late one night. It was just on my iPhone, and we were sitting by the fire, and I literally pulled it out and she just started crying. She was like, that's so important that this song is written, you know. And so again, and for those of you that haven't seen ever and ever before, we kind of took you back to this, like, Victorian Pride and Prejudice Bridgeton era.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I love it.

[Joel Smallbone]

And did the, like. I think they call it English Bond dancing. Is that right?

[Luke Smallbone]

Contra dancing.

[Joel Smallbone]

That's exactly what I said.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah, we. We know so much about.

[Joel Smallbone]

But speaking of homeschool, a shout out to Charlie, who.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah.

[Joel Smallbone]

Who's a homeschooler and has nine kids. So you've got a lot of catching up to do.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah.

[Joel Smallbone]

Who did. Orchestrated the dance. But it was just this opportunity to express lasting love. There's a lot of emphasis in this culture on the infancy of love, the explosion of being in love, which is beautiful. I'm not. You know, that's the show that you. That's why people watch the show that you were on, because it was the beginning. It's the beginning of love. But what about the love that lasts? What about the love that is a love of decades and a love of. Of lifetimes? That's a real love to celebrate, you know, because it is actually tried and true. It's been through the fire, like Luke talked about. And so that's what that song. It's funny at face value, it looks sort of whimsical and light, and it's fun and it's us dancing. But when you dig, like, when you get underneath the song, it's like. It's. It's 15 years of me knowing my wife and. And 12 years being married, and it's 17 years for Luke and Courtney knowing each other. Like, it. That's it. There's a lot of. There's a lot of Miles. And, And. And we're richer for it, you know, in many ways.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Come on, I want to hear. You're talking about a love that lasts. Like, what would be your. Your best advice there to. To marriages, those who want to be married to. Of how to cultivate a love that lasts, how to make it about the most important thing, how to stay, like, keep that fire lit. You know, we do need to put

[Joel Smallbone]

a disclaimer under the scene. Hey, we're not experts on any of this just because we sing a song or act in a movie.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

We're figuring it out totally as we all are, you know, but. But I mean, with 17 years, and you said 15 years, I mean, you guys have been through some things. Like, what are some things you've learned and you've seen. Seen that you would encourage others who are maybe newly married or want to be married or maybe their marriages are struggling. You know, what, what would be some advice of going through the hard time, keeping the fire lit, continuing to be intentional and prioritize one another?

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah, I mean, look to the, to the single ones out there. I would say, hey, just make sure with all that is in you, that you're. We. We hear this term in the church a lot. But this is where I see most of the issues in marriages happen, is they're just not equally yoked. So whatever you can do to find someone that is, you don't have to be the same person. Actually, you, you know, oftentimes not being the same person is very helpful to the strength of your marriage, but you're going after the similar things. You know, Eugene Peterson says, you know, following Jesus is like a long obedience in the same direction when, you know, when you're finding a spouse, a mate for life. Like, is someone on that same journey? Because if they're on that same journey, then that's someone that you should actually really go and explore, which is dating. Explore the idea of what would this look like. So that would be a prerequisite to me. Like, you just have to be. Are they on that same path? Right. Because if they're not, you know, it doesn't mean that that relationship's over forever when it comes to a romantic relationship, but probably not right now. You know what I mean? So that would be one thing that I would say when I look, when I would, you know, when it comes to having a, you know, a marriage that lasts, I would say, man, learn to learn to forgive and look in the mirror and ask is some of the issues that are actually happening in our marriage Are they? Is it because of me? A lot of times I think in marriage, we look at it and we're like, I just wish my spouse could get this right, right? And we're really actually doing, when we're doing, what we're subconsciously doing is we're pointing the finger at the other person saying they need to change, they need to do this. What I would say, particularly to men, is if you can model the way that you hope to be treated by the way that you forgive and you love your spouse, it is very unlikely that your spouse will not start treating you with that same respect, dignity, honor and forgiveness.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

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[Luke Smallbone]

And so to me, most of the times, and I speak more directly to men than I do others, is because men are usually the ones letting the side down, often in marriages, because they're not willing to be vulnerable. They're not willing to look at themselves in the mirror. And at times we have to look at ourselves in the mirror and say, I'm not living up to the Standards that I might project. I'm not living up to the standards of what I said on my wedding day. I'm not living up to my vows. And to be totally honest, that's okay. That's actually how you know that there's a chance that your marriage is actually stronger than you think. The other thing I would say is slow. The slow drift is the most dangerous thing in marriage because you just slowly get to the point where you're not engaging. We started. I don't know if this was on air or not, but when it was, hey, I want to hear all about your day. I want to know everything.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I want to know everything. Tell me everything.

[Luke Smallbone]

The moment that we just kind of don't. I mean, not. It doesn't necessarily have to be every day, but the moment that we're not engaging in those things, it's a problem because you're slowly drifting away. And the other thing I would say is, don't underestimate the power of fun in your marriage. Go on that date, Go on that trip. Go do something a little reckless and silly and fun because it's just you two together. If your husband or spouse, your wife wants to go do that thing, just go be with them. It usually ends up being so much more fun. Laugh together, play together. You'll be amazed at how the. The outlook of your marriage. After just a, you know, a date like that or an evening like that, the rest of the week just all of a sudden looks a lot brighter, looks a lot more joyful.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

That's so true. It's so. It's so crazy how it is the, you know, and even scripture talks about, like, pay attention to the little foxes that get in and ruin a whole vineyard. I. I even treat that as, like, within marriage. It's like there are little things that can get in that can ruin the marriage. There are little. Little drifts, little things that you overlook or dismiss. It's not that big of a deal. We'll get to it eventually. And then before you know it, it becomes this bigger thing. And so being so intentional, asking intentional questions, continuing to pursue one another, being quick to forgive. You know, playing the game of who can forgive first, who can be the fastest to ask for forgiveness and. And genuinely mean it. You know, like, we don't even practice. Like, and I'm sorry. It's like a. Will you forgive me for. And then name the thing. Like, what is it? Like, will you forgive me for the thing I said in the way that I said it? Because I know that was disrespectful and it wasn't loving, it wasn't kind. And to like, actually have that moment and mean, it goes a really long way. And I love that you were. Yeah. Speaking to the, to the men and to the women. You know, your words really matter. Your words really, really matter. And so that's even something that I got convicted of this week. I'm like, I've just been like, complaining for no reason, you know, like, there's nothing even to complain about. But I've just been nagging and grumbling and complaining for no reason. And I think that's something that even when you read through proverbs, like, it talks about continuously, that the woman in particular has to be so intentional about is like, watch your words. Because your words can tear down or they can build up, your words can pierce or they can heal. And so what are your words doing for your spouse and for other people? Like, what are you. How are you using your words? Because they're either promoting the kingdom of light or the kingdom of darkness. And there's just really no neutral ground. But I think oftentimes we try to, like, coast in that neutral. But that's just my encouragement to the women out there.

[Luke Smallbone]

It's good, it's good.

[Joel Smallbone]

Well said.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

But I love. And in a part of the song, like, you guys even talk about, like, for better or for worse. And I think that is so easy, you kind of like forget that. It's like you get married and then the for worse comes and you're like, you start freaking out.

[Joel Smallbone]

Oh, it's all poetry until it gets real, right? Like, it's like, oh, this sounds so lovely. Sickness and in health, better or worse, death do us part. And then you get into it and you go, no, this is, this is, this is real. But again, we're fighting this cognitive distance dissonance, Maddie, where it's like on one hand you have sort of this ideological culture that's saying, hey, if it doesn't come quick, it's probably not worth it. If it's not a relationship that there's not sort of electricity, then then probably don't invest in it. Like, if, if you, if you don't love the vocation immediately, don't stay with it, like, and yet and come call me crazy. Talk to chat gp, chat GPT. Maybe they'll say something else. But when I look at lives that I respect the most, when I look at people that I feel like are the most balanced and well rounded and God loving humans and people loving humans, because Sometimes God, quote, unquote, loving humans cannot be very. People loving humans, which is a major contradiction there. But when you. When I see. When I study these mentors and these people that have gone before us, not 9 out of 10 times, 10 out of 10 times, I find that there's always been long suffering. There's always been this attitude of I'm going to, I mean, lay down my life for my wife, as Christ did for the church. Like, I'm actually going to defer my preferences, like, and again. And I'm not. There's a whole other side to this. That is another podcast for another day about boundaries and abuse. And you cannot save the person they. It takes two to tango, man. If your spouse is not showing up to the dance, there's only so much you can do. So I've got all the respect in the world. And do not hear us say that. You just got to tough it out, because that's. That's not the conversation we're having. But I do think the people that show up, the people that, that, that, that become friends, like Luke said, that try, like, and fail, by the way. And when they fail, they pick themselves back up again and then they try again. Those are the people. I go, man, you've done it. Like, you. You've actually. Because going back to where we started, this whole idea of, like, tension and failure and, And. And struggle. I've never equally met a person that. I go, you just had an awesome life and you became a great human accidentally. Like, I. I'm right. I meet them and I go, you. You went through it and. And you use that refining fire to either. I often say, make you. It make, you know, does it make you bitter or doesn't make you better? And they've just used it to make them better by the grace of God. And, and that I. I feel like, again, sojourner here. That's been the beauty of. I think I can speak on behalf of both of us with Courtney and Mariah, with both of our marriages is like, we've just been these sojourners. And I'll say this as well, just to stick a fork in this conversation about marriage. Courtney and Mariah are way cooler than Luke and me, and they're so much greater than us.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I want to hang with them.

[Joel Smallbone]

They got to you. Must. You would love.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Which, by the way, they sing, too.

[Joel Smallbone]

Yeah, evidently.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

That's crazy. Their voices are.

[Joel Smallbone]

And they sing better than us.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Their voices are amazing. I was like, wait, this is them. This is crazy.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah.

[Joel Smallbone]

No, Courtney, like, Plays guitar really well. Grew up singing in church. Mariah's a Latin country artist. Like, yeah, they've got their own. They're Superwoman over there.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

That's. I love that so much. Yeah. Something you said reminded me. My mom used to always say, everything worthwhile is uphill. So anything that's worth it in life

[Joel Smallbone]

is gonna come with some struggle. That's good. Everything worthwhile is uphill.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah. Anything worth it is gonna come with some resistance. It's gonna come with some discipline. It's gonna come with some hard work. It's gonna come most of the time with things that are uncomfortable and naive, easy. And so often we just want that instant gratification. We want that instant reward, we want that instant view, we want that instant whatever it is. But it takes the hard work to get there. It takes the struggle to get there. And it makes it so much sweeter when you do get there. And I think if you get it, because, I mean, to be honest, we just live in a time where it's like, you really don't have to struggle that much anymore. Like, you really can go viral in an instant and have this, like, career and this platform in a moment, and you didn't have to work for it. And I would say what happens so often in that situation is it's not as sweet and your heart maybe isn't as pure because you didn't have to go through the depending on God and the hardships and the failures and the things. And then you have to learn the hard lessons in public. And that's hard in and of itself. And so I think it is. It's so beautiful when you have that mindset of, like, yeah, it's going to come, like, marriage itself, relationships, life, your calling, all of it. Like, it's. It's gonna come with some hard work, intentionality, discipline, struggles, moments of failure, you know, and, like, working hard at it. But those are the best things in life.

[Joel Smallbone]

There's a. I love allegories. And I. I often feel like, you know, science and, you know, spirituality shouldn't be disconnected. Like, the more I feel like the further we get, the more we're gonna see these two converge. And so there was this. These scientists did this test because they were just in random tests. They did this test on a tree. They basically gave this tree optimal and perfect environment for it to grow. Perfect nutrition, perfect soil, no wind, no storms. Literally, just. They gave this tree. They plant it in the ground. It's in this greenhouse, and it would grow up, and it got to A point of maturity or lack thereof. And every time it would just fall over.

[Luke Smallbone]

Wow.

[Joel Smallbone]

They plant another one, grow up. It would get too top heavy and it would fall over. And I feel like this is us with. I'll call it charisma instead of character. Because you talk like charismatic. People can have the moment, they can have the pop, the. And the sizzle, but it gets too top heavy. You fall over. The reason the trees were falling over is because it's actually the storm and the elements and the struggle that make the roots bear down into the ground to hold on. We've just seen this with the snow apocalypse here in Nashville. You see all these trees that have fallen over, like the struggle, literal storm, the wind. It's what makes the tree persevere. It's what it makes the tree bear down into the ground. And if you've ever seen those in San Francisco, those redwoods or whatever they've been around for hundreds and thousands of years, know it's because they've faced the elements. You know, they weren't given this little perfect curated environment. Otherwise you just grow to a certain point and.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah, fall over, man, that's so, so good. Yeah, we were actually shocked that none of our trees fell over. And I was like, man, that's some good. Those are some good trees. Good trees building their life on the right thing.

[Joel Smallbone]

Put them through the struggle.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

No, I know. And it makes me think of Matthew 7, where it talks about the house built on the two different. Different foundations and how one house was built on sand and another house was built on the rock. And in the same situation, storms came because you can't. Whether you build your life on Jesus or you build your life on the world, storms are still going to come because we live in a broken, fallen world. So storms will come. But what is your life built on? Because that's going to determine whether you get through the storm with some peace, with some hope, with some, you know, some foundation, and you don't crumble and fall to the ground when those elements, you know, forces come. And I. I think that that's so true because we so often, like, crave the perfect bubble. Like, we so often crave the comfort, and we crave, like, things, you know, our plans going accordingly. We want everything to look a certain way and be a certain way and appear to other people a certain way. But it's really through, like, the hard and the storms and the. That. That character that you're talking about is forged and our dependence on God is. Is deepened. I mean, I know for me, in some of my hardest seasons of life, I look back and I'm like, man, praise God for those seasons. Because who. Who God was to me in that time, how my. My intimacy with him was. Was just so deepened and. And how I truly had nothing but him. Like, I just look back at those seasons and I'm so thankful. And what God does in those seasons, I feel like I even, like, live off of for so long that then, like, he'll then take me back into, you know, another season. And. And we still have. It's like he's our daily bread. We need him. Need him every single day. But those seasons of, like, despair and hardship and storms, it's like, I don't know, it really can strengthen you and produce so much in you that withstands, you know, whatever. Whatever comes next. Man, this. This has been such an encouraging conversation, and I'm.

[Joel Smallbone]

I hope so.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I'm learning so much.

[Joel Smallbone]

Count how many times you said the word struggle in this conversation.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

But it's good. Like, the struggle. Like, the struggle can be good. And I think because we live in a time where so many people are chasing the success, so many people are chasing the crown. It's like you look at Jesus and he's like, no, no. Like, to follow me is to deny yourself and to chase the cross.

[Luke Smallbone]

Truth.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And so, like, so many people are trying to promote themselves, not deny themselves.

[Joel Smallbone]

You want to become the greatest, you become the least, right?

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It's. Everything's flipped. It's like you want to find your life, okay? You find it by losing it. Like, you find it by dying to yourself. Everything's flipped. In following the kingdom and. And. Or in following Jesus and living in the kingdom of light. And so it's. I love that we're talking about this and that we hit so heavy on this because so many times we run from the struggle, and we don't want the hard, and we only want the good, and we only want the success, and we want the number one hits, and we want the Grammy Awards, and we want those things. We want to be seen. We want to be important. We want to be relevant. And I just look at the life of Jesus and nothing about, like, he. He's just like, this message of, like, fight to be irrelevant. Die to yourself. Like, don't make it about you. And it's just this, like, such countercultural message and that in the struggle, there's actually, like, such joy. Like, for the joy set before him, he endured the cross, you know, count it all, joy. Like you were saying earlier, So I just think there's so much there, and I'm super thankful for this combo, and I know that it helps so many people. And I would love to just end with, like, you guys have a lot going on. There's some, like, fun things happening throughout this year. I'd love to just give you an opportunity to share about some of those things that, you know, maybe some things that are coming out, some things that you guys have been working on and how people can stay connected to you and kind of check out those projects.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah, no, we're actually about to head over to Ireland and work on a new film. It's called Drummer Boy. It's about two brothers that end up on the opposite side of the Revolutionary War. And so that's gonna be. It's a musical, so it's gonna be a whole. A whole thing. So if there's a fear and trepidation in my eyes right now, it's because we just realized, well, we've still got a lot of work we got to

[Joel Smallbone]

do that we've ever done.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah. Yeah. So that's. That's coming. Obviously, there's. There's new music coming out, and there's an album to. To. To come later this year as well. And so this year, we. We took some time last year to. To not travel as much, and we worked on a new album, worked on this film. And. And this year is kind of where. I don't want to say it's all catching up to us, but it all. It comes to a point where, you know, all the things that. All the seeds at some point that are planted do have to actually be harvested. And I think this is the year of harvest. You know, this stuff actually has to. Has to go out. Doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the best fruit or not the best fruit. We don't know what it is, but it needs to go out and it needs to go and do its work. And so in some cases where it's a year of. Yeah, maybe I just. Maybe I just coined a phrase. It's the year of harvest for King of Country.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Amen.

[Luke Smallbone]

Here we go.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I'm like, maybe we could all claim that hopefully.

[Joel Smallbone]

Yeah, it's. It's a. It's interesting to me, going back to just the. The God story and God's interaction with humans. Is that, like, one of the first things God ever did with humanity was he put us to work? It's pretty darn quick. It was like, create this. All right? Create. You go and go and work. And, and I think that's part of what we're. The wrestle of this whole thing is like, what does it work to cultivate relationships? What does it look like, you know, to cultivate, you know, good work and strive for excellence, but not find your identity in that. Find any God. Like, these are the great questions, but I want to be careful to notate that. Like, it's really important that you. You work, that you go and you. You create. You are a co creator with God, Whether it's you creating your little child or whether it's you creating this podcast together and like, whether it's actually creating a song or a film, like, or whether it's you creating a spreadsheet or an Excel street, like, anywhere in between. Like, we're designed to create.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah.

[Joel Smallbone]

And so an encouragement to the listener and the viewer. Like, yeah, go. And we have dedicated our lives to creating these sort of sound waves and moving pictures and, and, And Maddie, you're pouring into people. What does that look like for you to create? What. What's that? And it's not on a scale, guys. Like, some of the greatest people again, that I've met that were not pop stars, they weren't rock stars, they were the farthest thing from it. Like, but they were the best humans. Like, so, yeah, cheering you on as you go and create and struggle and suffer and all the rest of it,

[Luke Smallbone]

all the things, and succeed. We can have some happy words in there and have joy and laughs.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

But here's what's cool about what you're just saying is that literally the title Unsung Hero is like, that we want to be the. The famous known hero, the one who sings on the stage, you know, but it's like, like there's also a reality where, you know, it even talks about in scripture, like, the different parts of the body, but we all work together to edify Christ. And it's like, there are some parts of the body that are more seen. Doesn't mean more important. There are parts of the body that are. Aren't seen and honestly are kind of more important. And like, you don't. You don't see physically my heart, but it's what keeps me alive, you know, and it's like there are so many parts of the body, and we work together not for promotion of ourself, you know, the hand's not over here. Like, look at the hand. Like, the foot's not over here. Like, man, I wish I was the hand. It's like, no, we're all working together to promote Jesus and to make it all about him. And so not one of our gifts are more important than the other. It's all about how are you stewarding the gift you've been given to edify the. The head, to edify Christ. And so I love, like, even viewing it that way of like, not one gift is better than the other, but treating it as like, all of our gifts are valuable. But are you stewarding your gifts? Well, are you working? I literally prayed that this morning. Like, the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Lord, raise up workers. Send out your workers. May I be a faithful worker. And I pray that over every. Every person listening, that, yeah, we wouldn't. We wouldn't grow weary and doing good. We wouldn't. We wouldn't become apathetic. You know, we wouldn't hit the cruise. Cruise control, but like, but you can

[Joel Smallbone]

go on a cruise if you want,

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

but you can go on a cruise.

[Joel Smallbone]

One of the reasons you need to be watching this podcast and not just listening to it is because if you're watching it, you would appreciate the fact that Maddie's socks match her sweater.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Okay. I was gonna wear sneakers.

[Luke Smallbone]

I noticed that it really.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

They are actually.

[Luke Smallbone]

Did you really thought about this, everyone?

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Because I have this. This is like one of my favorite color blues and I have like.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah, I can tell.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah, I know.

[Joel Smallbone]

It matches the sign behind you as well.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Different sweatshirts and shirts with the same color. And so then I got these matching socks and it was this whole thing.

[Luke Smallbone]

So, like, did you, like, get it? Like, almost like you do when you get painted your house? Like, did you hold them up and you're like, that is.

[Joel Smallbone]

Wait, is it literally a perfect brand?

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It's not the same brand.

[Joel Smallbone]

Wow.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

But we just, we. That is God.

[Joel Smallbone]

I am colorblind. I actually can't. I don't see colors very well.

[Luke Smallbone]

This is true color deficient color deficiency.

[Joel Smallbone]

But I can see that this matches that.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It does, in fact. And I did, did. I did hold it up. I did do the whole, like, this goes together. I will confess. Intention, intentionality. Man, this has been such a fun convo. I'd love, you know, you opened in prayer. I'd love for you to close us in prayer and just pray over the listeners and those who are struggling or succeeding, those who are in the best time of their life or in a really, really hard season, and just whatever God lays in your heart. Yeah, yeah.

[Luke Smallbone]

Lord Jesus, we do thank you for these moments, these conversations. We never know where they go to the ends of the earth. At some level. And so, Lord, I pray for the people that are listening to this. I pray that they'll just feel built up and encouraged. That, Lord, that you see them, that you love them, that you care for them. And that whatever they might be going through, whether it is the greatest heights or the. Or the lowest of lows, that you're with them. You're with them in both. And so, Lord, I pray that we'll carry that with us, with ourselves, as we go on our. The rest of our day and the rest of our weeks and the rest of our year, that we will be mindful of you and all things that take place in our lives. And Lord, may. May we be good stewards. May we be vessels of what you want and your will in. In this. In this world, Lord. So we pray for Maddie, her family, blessing on them. And for this time, Lord, we. We're grateful for it. In Jesus name we pray. Amen.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Amen. Well, thank you, Luke and Joel. This was so fun. And I will include in the show notes how you can get connected to them, how you can check out. We talked a lot about Unsung Hero. They also have other films and they also have amazing songs and all the things. So I will connect all of those in the show notes. And as always, guys, be sure to stay. You stay true. We love you.