← Stay True with Madison Prewett Troutt
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A
What's up guys? And welcome back to another episode of Stay True podcast. I'm your host, Madison Pruitt Trout, and I'm so excited because we have a very special guest joining us today. Today we will be sitting down with pastor and bestselling author Kyle Idleman, someone I have looked up to for so long.
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C
Long.
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A
He is the pastor at Southeast Christian Church and the author of books like Not a Fan that have impacted so many people's faith journeys over the years, including mine. He also has an amazing new book out called the Missing Messiah. And you guys, this conversation is going to be so good. It's so timely. Today we're going to be talking about how easy it is to create a version of Jesus that fits our culture, our preferences, and even our politics. Instead of truly following the Jesus we see in scripture, we we get into some really powerful questions, like why people are more comfortable with Jesus as Savior than Jesus as king. How culture and social media can shape our view of him without us even realizing it. What parts of Jesus's character modern Christianity tends to soften and what it actually looks like to move from just consuming Christianity to truly following Christ. This conversation is challenging, convicting, encouraging, and honestly, just so important. So with that being said, please welcome to Stay True podcast Pastor Kyle Idleman. Kyle, welcome to Stay True podcast. I'm so excited to have you on. I told you this.
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D
Excited to be here right before, but
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A
I have been literally changed and transformed by your books, and so I'm so excited to talk about it.
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D
You have in your hand there a book I wrote a long time ago. Did you read it? A long time ago?
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A
So I read it, let's see, two years ago when Grant and I were living in Waco, Texas. This is his book. Not a fan. For those of you who are listening and not watching.
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B
And.
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A
And it. It just was. It's so good. There's very few authors that I read, and I'm, like, so hooked. Like, I can't put the book down because from, like, humor to storytelling to scripture to everything. Like, I just love your writing style.
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D
Okay.
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A
And so I read this book so fast, and I was also saying this right before we prayed, before we press record, but the message God has put on your heart is one that I feel so burdened to. Like, everyone listening to the podcast right now is like, yeah, like, Maddie, you know, is very passionate about this message. And all friends laugh because I'm the person who's like, yeah, yeah, but is he Lord? Like, okay, yes, he's Savior, but is he Lord? Like, is he Lord of your life? And I just feel like that is a message that God has so heavily put on your heart and that you have blessed so many people with, of just really calling out, like, don't just live a comfortable Christian life, you know, and calling out the idols and just all the things. So I'm so excited to dive in. And we also were talking about right before this that you live in Kentucky, and so horses, Kentucky. There's lots of, like, mutual friends, connections, things. My husband has a horse farm in Kentucky, and so we got to come out to the church.
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C
Yeah.
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D
Love to have you come see. And, you know, I. I should say, too, just following you a little bit from a distance, the not a fan message or what we'll talk about today in Making Jesus Lord. And what's that look like? I've appreciated the way that you've lived that out. I. I think so many people hear that idea, and it feels like, I don't know, maybe a little oppressive or that they're missing out if they. If they take that path. And the reality is, like, there's so much joy in it. So, you know, even in approaching this conversation with the spirit of, like, hey, this is not God trying to rob you. This is God trying to give to you that in living a life of submission, in going all in, we actually end up finding what we're afraid of losing.
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A
Amen.
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D
And. And so I appreciate watching how you've lived that out and called people to it.
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A
Amen. That's so good. In your new book, the Missing Messiah, I am like five or six chapters in audio version. I've been listening to it, and it's so good. I was listening to you talk about at the beginning of the book how we've kind of, in our world today, customized Jesus and who we want him to be. And you kind of give this, like, build a bear reference. And I thought it was so interesting and so good. Such a good, like, vis visual of how we kind of decide, oh, I like this. This part of Jesus. I like this part of Scripture. Like, I'm going to kind of build, you know, God into who I want him to be, as if God is, like, made for us. Right? And, you know, and that's kind of how we a lot of times view and even how we share our faith to other people. And so I want to talk about this idea of how we've customized Jesus into who we want him to be that you talk about in your book. Why do you think that is? And how do you think we got here?
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D
You know, I. I would say we all do it. So give yourself some grace on this. If you're listening to it, like, it is not new culturally. With Western culture, we see this throughout the first century as Christianity is born. Just this instinct to compartmentalize faith, this instinct to make it as comfortable as possible. Like, some of that's just intuitive. However, you know, our Western culture really emphasizes personalization. Think in terms of an algorithm, like, everything's just built for you as the consumer, as the customer. So without even meaning to, we're going to do this. I talk in the book a little bit about this as, like, the Netflix ification of faith, that, you know, there's something working behind the scenes that tailors everything to you and your preferences and what you like and avoids things you don't like. Like, you're not consciously making that happen. It's just geared that way. And if you approach Jesus as a consumer instead of a follower, it leads to some really bad places. But we have to try to make the argument in the book. We have to consciously be aware of that and fight against it, because just culturally, we are programmed in that direction. Like, we're gonna do that. And if you add culture to just our, you know, common love for comfort, everybody loves, loves, comfort, it's going to draw you into that. You mentioned the, the build a bear example of, you know, where you kind of pick and choose what you want. That, that's the idea of that image of, you know, you. I want it firm or I want a little bit more soft or I want it to say this but not say this. And when you, you come out at the other end of it and it's exactly the way you want it. And, and that tends to be our approach. There's a huge emphasis of like Jesus as personal savior and that's good. But to understand the difference between personal and personalized as really a part of the challenge. Like Jesus is a personal savior, but we don't want to personalize him where we just box him up and frame him up for what is most appealing or comfortable for us.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting and I feel like you allude in, in both of your books, like how there's been this narrative and it almost feels like we've swung from the pendulum like so hard. It feels like there was a time where it was such like a truth focused gospel. Like, you know, like turn or burn, like you, like, you know, you better choose God or you're gonna, you know, I don't know, it's just very intense. And then I feel like we've swung to this like grace filled gospel where it's just like Jesus is savior, he'll forgive you of your sins, you know, he loves you so much, accept him into. And I feel like you've alluded to like there's really nowhere, there's nowhere in scripture where it's talking about Jesus's invitation is accept me into your heart, but rather deny yourself and follow me. And so I would love for you to talk about that of just like the difference between and even like there is like a belief, but then there's also like the action of following and it requires both. And I know you've differentiated the two and how both are crucial and essential of like believing him in your heart. But also as he talks about, Jesus talks about in scripture, hey, if you love me, you will obey me. Like, you'll, you'll do what I tell you to do and you'll follow in my footsteps. And so I would love for you to kind of talk about like, why have we swung, does it feel like so hard into like kind of like the grace gospel where we're just really giving people. You talk about like, Jesus is your life coach, Jesus is your self help guide. Jesus is, you know, your cure for all of your like stress and anxieties and it's like, yes, he can be some of the, but that's not who Jesus. And so I would love for you to talk a little bit about that.
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D
You know, I talk about this and write about it partly because it's a struggle for me. I, over the years of being a preacher, pastor, writer, I love people who are hurting. When someone is in a really vulnerable place, like man, there's just something in me that is very drawn to them, cares deeply for them. And out of that I can really justify and rationalize in my mind giving them a message that is just very tender and gentle and as you say, filled with grace, but grace minus truth, which really isn't grace at all. But I, I, I, I guess I give people, when I see the pendulum swing over there, I often give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm guessing they care a lot and they're wanting to approach someone, you know, in a way that this is going to be relevant for them in a way that's going to meet their needs in a way that they're going to see. Jesus cares about me, but that leads to some, some places that can take us very far away from what Jesus invites us to, which is to deny ourselves, to take up our cross daily to follow Him. And, and so when I write about these things, I'm writing about it as someone who's had to confess at times of being like, okay, you know, I, I have sometimes gotten into this rhythm of preaching and teaching around things that aren't hard for people to hear. I'll give you an example from this weekend. I'm working my way through Genesis, and I was in Genesis 18 and 19 this, this past week, which is a story of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is just like this really heavy story, this really disturbing scenes. And there was this part of me that said, you know what? I don't know that I want to preach this. Like, let's go through Genesis, but let's skip 18 and 19.
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Yeah.
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And yet, you know, the more I dug into that story, I'm like, okay, God's judgment is on display here, but so is God's mercy. They're both on full display. And if I avoid talking about God's judgment, His mercy doesn't mean that much.
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Wow.
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And the same is true. Like, grace is really cheap. If, if it's not held in balance with conviction and truth and confession and repentance. And if I really want to make much of grace, then I am going to need to be honest about the reality of sin. And the call of Jesus to surrender. Like, those two things have to go together. You know, temptation, I think, is to sometimes look at that pendulum one way or the other and. And feel like maybe there's ulterior motives and maybe sometimes there is. Like, maybe sometimes in an effort to draw an audience or to get a crowd, you only say the things that people want to hear. But I tend to think that more often than not, it comes from a genuine place of care. And what we need to do is understand that what is most caring is speaking truth. That sometimes is hard to hear. Because Jesus said in Luke 9 there, he said, for whoever once. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it. And whoever wants, you know, whoever loses his life will save it. And the reality is that that's where true life is found. And just reminding ourselves, like, okay, I'm doing this, or I'm emphasizing this because I care.
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A
Yeah, it's so true. You were alluding to that at the beginning, too, of how there's this pool to, like, you know, selfishness and autonomy and, like, finding our worth, value, whatever it may be in the world. And we feel like sometimes, you know, if we follow God, the commands of God, that we're being ripped off. You know, we're gonna have to lose all of those things. We're gonna have to forsake all those things. But it is so crazy because the enemy is so coming and cunning and how he's kind of twisted it. But it's actually when we lose our life and when we forsake those things and we wholeheartedly go all in with Jesus and see face and seek his presence and follow his word and meditate on his word that we find life. Yeah, but there's such a pool, and I would just love to even get practical for a second of, you know, many even listening to this maybe feel a conviction and a stirring in their heart right now of, well, one, how do I know if I'm not submitted to the lordship of Jesus? How do I know if I'm not, you know, fully following his commands? How do I measure that? And then what does it practically look like to commit yourself to the lordship of Jesus?
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D
Yeah, you know, I think a question to ask yourself. When is the last time that Jesus convicted me of something where he or he changed my mind about something, or he didn't agree with me on something? Meaning that if I find that Jesus always thinks I'm right as a husband, you know, there's. There's probably something wrong there. If I find that Jesus Always agrees with me politically that what I think politically is what he thinks politically. This crazy coincidence that we always agree, what are the odds of that? Or if. If I find that Jesus is always on the side of what is most culturally accepted. You know, that to me, those questions are good questions to ask yourself to see where you're at, you know, to. To try to get some kind of honest metric of am I following. If. Am I following Jesus in a way that challenges me? Am I following him as Lord?
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Yeah.
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You know, if he's always agreeing with you and that conviction is not a part of your life as a follower, then you're doing it wrong. One of the scariest places to be spiritually is in a place where not only have you. Not only are you not practicing repentance, but it's been a long time since you've. You've been convicted of something. And, And I think that, you know, I think that's a good question to ask yourself. One of the things I would say, too, that helps with this a lot is, is studying scripture with other people. Like when I, When I'm trying to study scripture and it's just mostly me personally doing it by myself, I don't always see things in myself as clearly as when I listen to other people. I'm challenged by them. They know what's happening in my life. They help me be more objective in how I'm approaching what it looks like to be a follower of Jesus. And. And so I tend to think that if someone is trying to follow Jesus in isolation, where they're not doing it in community, I tend to think that most of the time they're going to be lacking some, you know, objective conviction. Like they, We. We need each other. We need to help each other with that.
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Right. Because there's so many blind spots and there's so much of interpretation of Scripture that is from our own experiences or emotions. And so having those people, the accountability, the wisdom of others to process those things with is so good. And you talk about that of, for. For so much of us, you know, we want to build up our own kingdoms. We want to have these, like, individual platforms. We want to kind of run this race. And at the. We forsake this, like, committed community. The gathering together at the church, the serving at our church, the gathering together and holding each other accountable, confessing to each other, and then actually holding each other accountable in what you confess. And I think we so often can take the easy route, you know, and the easy way out, whether it's. We call Our therapist, whether it's. We go to a priest, whether it's. We, like, say a quick prayer to God and be like, all right, I'm gonna keep going on with my life. And we forsake the committed community of doing life together in order to, like, iron sharpening iron, you know? And I'm curious, like, what has that journey been like for you, and how would you encourage others to. To seek that out?
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Well, you know, one of the questions I was going to ask you is, like, did you have somebody model that for you?
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Man? Honestly, I feel like my husband Grant was one of the best. I joke with him all the time. I'm like, you're like a professional confessor. Like, you're so good at confessing and living in the light and doing life with community. Because I actually feel like I was the oppos. I was the person people were coming to for confession. People were asking if I see. So I felt like I couldn't.
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Yes.
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For a long time.
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Really good. Like, that's a big deal. Like, the. In fact, there's some research on this that would say that the more you're in a position or you're what's called the source person, where the people are coming to you to confess or coming to you because they struggle or coming to you because they need help, the more you're in that position, the less likely you are to. To do that in your own life.
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Yeah. And.
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And it's because of this pressure that we put on ourselves, you know, that I. I don't want to be the one who is rescued. I want to be the rescuer, you know, and that becomes part of our identity. That's not. Not bad. Like, it's good to. To want to be used by God in that way, but it can be hard to, you know, to all. To make sure that we're doing it too. Well, the reason I asked about if you had someone model it is, I think. I think that for many people who grew up in Christian culture, that my experiences. If they had an example of someone like you mentioned with Grant, of someone who modeled confession, then they're like, oh, that's what that looks like. But it's amazing how many people never. They don't.
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Well, jp, was that for Grant.
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D
Okay.
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Jonathan Pacluta. And so that was huge. And then I started getting mentored by Jenny Allen, and she, you know, was that, for me, where I saw people in leadership.
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D
Yes.
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You know, walk out this continual confession, repentance, you know, and that was so convicting and inspiring. To me.
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D
Yeah. And I saw that with. I had some examples of this where people connected for me in their example, what it looks like to follow Jesus in an area of life where it's typically compartmentalized. Right. So I had a pastor friend who, you know, early on, you know, really helped me understand that, that how you deal with money is a way to model the lordship of Jesus in your life. I hadn't thought of that. I. I, like, I checked boxes when it came. Came to finances, but I wasn't approaching money. Like, oh, this is a metric for me to know how I'm following Jesus. I hadn't thought of it like that. And, and watching somebody do it just challenged me, and it kind of normalized something that the culture would say makes no sense. One of the examples I give in the book is, as a kind of a metaphor, is we tend to think of faith as a. Our spiritual lives as a drawer in a dresser. And, you know, so you got finances, you know, sexuality, you've got your career, you've got faith. Right. And the more you don't think faith should go through your other drawers, the more, you know, you're missing the Messiah in your life. Like, you're missing the lordship side of it. And. And I've just found that as a pastor, so many people come to church and they're like, yes, open up the spiritual drawer and let's talk.
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Yeah.
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But the minute you start reaching for another drawer, they're like, hey, listen, that's not what I signed up for.
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Yeah.
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I had a guy who sent me a. An email who said he was leaving the church. And as he was kind of explaining why, one of the things, some of the language he used is, I feel like you're trying to interfere with my life. Like, that was the reason he was leaving. I'm like, well, that's kind of the job description. And. But it just shows, you know, our. Like, he didn't. He was saying that very openly, like, of course. Well, I don't come to church for you to interfere with my life. Like, well, yeah, you do. Like, that's part. That's part of. It's part of it. But. But that feels very unnatural. And so to get to a point where you recognize, okay, Jesus is not just a drawer in my life. He's the chest that all the drawers fit into. Like that. And that is a much different frame to live your life with is to say, okay, I'm. I'm going to transition out of this idea that Jesus is just one of these drawers. To saying, okay, he's got access to every area of my life.
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Yeah, that's so good.
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And, and once that gets unlocked, like for example, you know, the more I will look at things, I'll give an example of, you know, as a 50 year old man, you know, the more I look at my taking care of myself physically as a spiritual issue, the more I'm like, okay, like that makes sense to me. Instead of approaching it like it's, you know, just being my best self, you know, now I'm seeing it as a way to honor Jesus as Lord of my life and then that that change. Now I'm doing it as a disciple of Christ rather than because, you know, self actualization or because I, you know, everybody's cold plunging. Right. I want it to be a way to honor him.
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A
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D
You know, I love the example that you gave because, as being a mom, because it kind of forced you out of your routine in a way that you go one way or the other with it. Like, you either say, okay, I'm gonna let this be a part of all of it, or I'm not gonna have much space for it. And to me, like, the image that came to my mind as you were talking is when, you know, when someone gets, someone who's had some vision issues, they get a pair of, of glasses, and they wear those glasses a little bit of time, and it helps them while they're wearing them, but they're not used to wearing them, so they don't put them on that much. And so maybe when they read or, you know, maybe, you know, maybe when they're watching TV or something, they put them on. But, but if that same person goes and gets like, Lasik and now everything, they see it through that lens. And to me, spiritually, we have kind of our, I'll use the idea of Sunday glasses right where we, we put them on, and maybe it's for a few hours in the morning and we kind of take them off and we go throughout the routine of our day and having a shift where we say, okay, I want this to be the lens that I look at my life through. I don't want it to just be, you know, something that I do on occasion or at certain moments. And I think that God really responds to, to, to that prayer. You know, if, if you, if you pray and you say, Jesus, you know, here's what I have today. Would you show me what it looks like to let, let you be the Lord of my life in this conversation, in this meeting that I have in this, you know, my work. I, I had this moment when I go somewhere by myself. I, I, I, like, I'm very happy with a Motel 6. Like, I, I, I, I stay, I stayed cheap. And I, I was stepping outside of My room. And I was feeling pretty stressed out about just being behind. I was speaking at this thing, and I was moving down the hallway pretty quick, and I. I could hear the. This lady who was cleaning one of the rooms singing Great Is Thy Faithfulness while she was cleaning this room.
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Room.
- [29:35]
D
And so I'm rushing down the hallway of this Motel 6 and listening. I stop. It kind of stops me. And I just stand outside the store while she's cleaning the room, and she's just kind of singing to herself this old hymn of greatest thy Faithfulness. And, you know, it was just this point of conviction to me for. For to see this lived out where here she is, you know, cleaning a room in Motel 6, just talking to God, just singing about his faithfulness and, you know, thinking, okay, that's what I want my life to look like. I want my faith, I want my walk with Jesus to be reflected in, you know, in every moment. Not just. Not just some of the moments. But to answer your question, like, how, you know, where practically, how do you do that? Where do you start? I think you just start with something. I think you choose an area and you just say, God, what would it look like in this area of my life to really follow you as Lord? And I'm going to give an example that's just come into my mind. I don't think I talk about this in the book. If you were really struggling with bitterness towards someone, there's a lot of content that you can access out there that would say, hey, here's why you should forgive the person. It's better for you emotionally. You know, it's better for you psychologically. You're not. It's not doing any good for you to hold on to that. Like, there's a lot of good content to try to motivate you to get to a place of forgiveness. Bible talks a lot about, you know, the root of bitterness and what it does in your life. Lots of, you know, lots of practical reasons to do it. What if it. What if forgiveness is just a decision you make because Jesus is your Lord? Like, what if, like all those other things may be true and they may be important and they might encourage you? And I'm not saying it's bad to let that motivate you, but what if your real motivation is, you know, what? Jesus is my Lord? He has told me to love my enemies. He has told me to bless those who curse me. I'm going to do it, and I'll trust him with these, you know, to work. Work it all out But I'm. I'm gonna do it just because. Just because he's. He's my Lord. And. And if, you know, so to the person listening to this and they're not sure where to start, that's where I would start. I would start with something like that, where you just. Instead of trying to talk yourself into it, like, here's the pros and cons. If. If this is what God has called you to, if this is what it looks like to live under his kingdom.
- [32:09]
A
Yeah.
- [32:09]
D
Then just let that be your reason and then trust him, you know, with
- [32:15]
A
all the other stuff that's so good, it's so true, because especially in our time, I feel like there is so much of. Of wanting the arguments and the reasons and the rat and trying to, like, make. And it's like there are going to be so many moments where it's like your emotions and your logic, they just fall short. And it's like at the end of the day, like, will you trust that he is God, that he is sovereign? Will you obey and follow His Word? And there are so many moments like that in my own life where I'm just like, lord, you know, I don't know how to be a loving mom right now. She's having temper tantrums for the first time. And I'm like, God, I. I don't. Like, can you just. Can you help me? Like, I'm submitting to. To you, to your authority, and I need your strength, your power. Like, God, I don't know how to love my spouse, this friend that hurt me, that I feel a bitterness towards, that I don't want to forgive because what they said was hurtful to this family member that I feel just like I can never do enough for. And I am constantly pouring. Whatever the situation may be. There are so many moments where it's like my logic and my feelings, it's not matching what God's word is commanding me to do.
- [33:19]
D
Yeah.
- [33:19]
A
And it's like at the end of the day, like, is he the final authority in your life? Like, is that. Are you going to submit to His Word even if your feelings and your logic doesn't measure up with God's Word? And I think that's where so many people are missing the mark, because they're picking and choosing the parts of. Of God, of God's Word that they like and that they want to, you know, run with and work with. But then the parts that actually challenge them or actually get them uncomfortable, you know, they kind of run from that. And it is Such a. Like, I don't know. I feel like I'm still growing in this. Like, you know, you never arrive at this.
- [33:57]
D
No, you don't.
- [33:58]
A
But I do think it's like, the fear of God. You've gotta have such a right view of him. And so what has that journey been like for you? Like, have you always had this fear of the Lord and this, like, love for following and obeying his word and this, like, push against, like, society's kind of. Of pull and the cultural norms? What has that journey been like for you? Because I know a lot of people listening are probably like, okay, Kyle. Okay, Maddie. Like, maybe it's easy for you. Like, you teach the word of God. Like, you do this for a living. Like, of course you believe that God's word is the authority and you submit to his lordship. But, like, for me, like, I don't know that it really matters. I don't really know how to do that. So I'm curious what the journey has been like for you.
- [34:39]
D
I love your example of, as a mom with young child, of saying, okay, I'm trying to figure out what it looks like to like, to follow Jesus, you know, when. When my child's having a temper tantrum, like, looking at that through that lens of discipleship. And I think I've had a lot of those moments over the years where, you know, I'll feel like, okay, I'm kind of figuring some things out here, but then I'll have a new season of life. And I'm trying to figure out what that looks like now. What I've been more intentional with in. In more recent years is asking for help. Help on that. I think one of the things that really stunted my growth as a follower of Jesus for a long time is I would study God's word in community, and I would make effort in this. But if I was struggling, I wouldn't necessarily say to somebody, can you help me? This is just hard for me. And there were times when we were. I've been married 30 years, early on in. In our marriage, when we were having a hard time with something, my wife would be like, hey, let's, you know, let's ask somebody for help. And I would be like, we can't do that. You know, well, let's pray about it. Let's, you know, let's work on it. But I didn't. I didn't. We were surrounded by people who would have helped us. If I would have just said, can you help us? When. When we had. With one of our Kids, and we were really struggling with one of our kids. And what was working on all the other ones didn't work on that one. She, she would say, let's. Let's ask somebody for help. And, and eventually that did help me get to the place of breaking free from that. But. And I found so much power in it when I did, so now I will do that. I'll ask for help. I, I, you know, one of the things I've really been reconvicted about lately, which is in some ways, you know, humbling. I mean, as I'd love to, I would love to think that I'm way past this, but I've just been reconvicted lately about how much time I spend on screens. And I'm embarrassed to tell you that. I mean, you'd think I'm a grandfather. I've been a pastor for 30 years.
- [36:40]
B
No, it's not.
- [36:41]
D
Just snuck up on me. And I found myself, like, one day, I looked at my screen time, I'm like, oh, that's not good. And immediately I made the connection in my mind, like, this needs to, this is a discipleship thing. Like, if, if, if I'm following Jesus as Lord, then this is a metric that should concern me. And, and then I reached out to a friend of mine and said, hey, this is where I'm at. You know, I, I just, I need you to, to help me kind of be more intentional here and be more careful with it. And so, you know, now you. We talk every week and, and every week that's part of the conversation. And, and so if you have an area like that, like sharing it and, and saying, hey, I'm trying to figure this out, but I want, I want to honor Jesus as Lord in this area. I'm not sure how to do it. And, or I'm. I'm not sure how to do it consistently. You know, Jesus says to take up your cross daily and follow me. It's that daily part that gets you. But asking for help along the way, I think is, Is often overlooked.
- [37:47]
A
Yeah, so true. Because scripture, you know, is so clear of, like, we confess our sins to him for forgiveness, but we confess our sins to each other, and that's where we find true healing and freedom. Because for. That was my story for so long. I was confessing to the Lord all the time, you know, and I was receiving that forgiveness, I was receiving that grace, but I was still stuck. I was still stuck. And whatever it was, whatever secret sin it was that I was too ashamed to share with someone Because I thought, you know, they'll think of me differently or I won't be, you know, the leader that I want to be in the eyes of other people, you know, my own pride. Right. And I felt too embarrassed, too scared, or maybe I feared, you know, their rejection of rejecting me as a friend or whatever it may be, but I was too afraid to share those things. And it's crazy how again, the enemy is so cunning because it actually became the opposite of what I feared. And it was like, not only did it lead to so much freedom, but it also led to such a deeper connection and friendship with that person. Because I think so often we just wanna portray our strengths, but it's actually our weaknesses and our vulnerabilities that leads to such, like, deep connection. And it took me such a long time to get there because I, I want to be the like, strong put together person who like never struggles. But it wasn't until it was like, okay, look at my scars, look at my weak spots, look at my, that anytime I, you know, share on a podcast or on a stage or whatever it may be, or a coffee with a friend, it's never the moments where I have like the crazy one liners, right. Where I'm like, man, that was pretty fire. It's like the moments where I'm crying and I'm like, that's actually so embarrassing that I am sharing this and confessing this. And it's, it's what you're saying of having those people that actually know what's going on in your life, they actually know how you really are and they're holding you accountable in those areas.
- [39:32]
B
Yeah.
- [39:33]
D
Sometimes you have to find that like you, you step out in faith and you do it and then you realize, oh, it really is true. And then it becomes a little easier the next time because you've personally experienced it and, and then you'll find, I mean, I'm sure this is already true, but like what I just, just shared with you a minute ago, I'm like, that wasn't that hard for me to share, you know, years ago, but I shared it years ago and I would like, I want people now to think I don't, that's not an issue for me. Right. That's the journey of humbling ourselves. And, and, and one of the tests for me as a follower of Jesus on this is, you know, where am I following Jesus right now? That's not comfortable. Like the example that you gave. The example that I gave, like, those are not comfortable examples. And I, I want to Be able to give, like, I want to be able to look at the course of the week and say, I followed Jesus this week in some ways that weren't comfortable for me. There's so much joy in it. Like, the adventure is so much better when you're not trying to follow Jesus in a way that's, that's always comfortable for you. And, and so that might be a good question to ask yourself too, is like, okay, I, how am I following Jesus right now? That's not comfortable. Yeah, maybe it's conversation I'm having. Maybe it's the confession that I'm practicing, but where am I following him that is challenging my comfort.
- [40:56]
A
Yeah, that's so good. That's so true. Do you, do you intentionally put yourself in positions to be uncomfortable? Like, how do you. Because I think sometimes we're like, okay, I don't want to have comfortable Christianity. I don't want to be a comfortable Christian. But then we're just like, okay, like, I don't want it. Like, you know, and it kind of just stays at that level of conviction, but there's no action that follows it. It. So how do you challenge yourself and how would you challenge those listening to put yourself in a position to continuously get uncomfortable, to make sure you're not just living kind of the comfortable American Christian, you know, bubble kind of life?
- [41:30]
D
Yeah, I, I think the test is, can you replace kind of the poetic language of, you know, not being comfortable with the story? If you can't tell a story, you're living a pretty comfortable life. And, you know, so for me, if I, I'll give you an example of this, Maddie. So if, like, if I can't tell a story about being uncomfortable and sharing my faith that doesn't date back three or four years ago.
- [41:55]
A
Right.
- [41:55]
D
That's, that's a problem. Right? Like, if, if I can't give an example of being uncomfortable in my generosity, then, then, then that's a problem. Like, I, I, I want to move past, like, just language of, hey, I don't want to follow Jesus in a way that's comfortable to being able to share a story. And so to let narrative kind of be your test of, you know, so if I ask someone, are you following Jesus in a way that's uncomfortable for you? What I'm wanting is a story. Tell me a story.
- [42:27]
A
Wow.
- [42:27]
D
Not just tell me, yeah, I think I am, but, like, what's the story? Like, my favorite stories to tell are those stories. Stories, like, you want more of those stories to tell because God shows up he meets you there. There's again, so much adventure in faith when you live that way. But that would be a test is like, can. Can you tell a story?
- [42:47]
A
That's so good? Because that literally happened to me the other day. I was at my local Target and I took hosanna and we were just shopping around. And I remember, you know, when you have that feeling, you're like, share the gospel. Share the gospel. And, you know, sometimes I don't listen because I'm like, I don't, you know, whether I'm in a hurry or whether I'm just too uncomfortable, like, I don't want to. Fear of man, whatever. But this time, like, I listened. I felt, you know, I felt the spirit speaking. I was like, I'm gonna do it. And so I leaned in and I'm, you know, asking questions and there's like, people around. Like, there's people behind me, you know, and like, there's eyes everywhere. So it's like, you know, can feel intimidating, but I'm like, I'm gonna go for it. You know, I'm gonna be bold, I'm be joyful. I'm gonna, you know, be intrigued. I'm gonna ask questions. And it was so interesting because there was no crazy moment. You know, the person didn't fall in my arms and give their life to Jesus. But, you know, as soon as I walked away from that conversation, well, I have no idea how God used that for the person I shared that with. But what was interesting was there were multiple people, I guess, that overheard that then came up to me and were. And they were like, hey, I'm so like, inspired because that's like such an uncomfortable thing to do. That's literally like what they said. And I was like, man, it's crazy because I felt so uncomfortable doing it. And I almost didn't. And there are times when I don't. But what's wild is not only does it become such a blessing for me and the person that I, you know, shared it with, but even those who are like, seeing from a distance or looking at, you know, looking at that situation from a distance, you just have no idea how God's gonna use it. And so often we just opt for comfort or like, we fear man. And so we just don't lean into those situations or we don't have the time for it, but it's like those are life changing moments.
- [44:24]
D
That's a great example, like that, that inner argument that you're having in your head in that moment. I still relate to it. It that Jesus in Luke 9, where he says, if anyone would come after me, he must deny himself that word, deny is this idea of saying no to yourself so you can say yes to Jesus. And like, what you just described is exactly what, what's happening. Like, your, yourself is saying no. Like, this is awkward, this is uncomfortable, and you know, the people around and you're having to say no, no, no, no. And, and I will say that one of the practices or one of the spiritual disciplines that, that really helps in making Jesus, Lord, is learning to say no to yourself. Like, I have a friend who, who does this with food. I've not adopted this, but he, you know, he'll always leave a little food when he orders a meal. And the reason he does this is because he says, I just want, I want to practice telling my flesh no. I just want to practice on my. He's not judgy about it. You know, he doesn't have an ego about it. He's just like, this is just an easy way for me to learn to tell myself no because he wants to say yes. And, and there's practice in this. So the more we, we learn to identify, like, oh, that's me telling myself, you know what I want to hear. I'm going to tell myself no. And, and paying attention to like, okay, how am I going to do that throughout the, the, the course of the week? Like, so, you know, if, if you're, if your daughter is in her, you know, throwing a temper tantrum, like, there's some certain ways your flesh wants to respond, but saying yes to Jesus means I'm going to say no to that. So recognizing the no in these different moments. Okay, this is how I'm saying no to myself. And I, and it's, I'm saying no to myself here so I can say yes to, to Jesus over there. And, and that's what it looks like to, to deny yourself so.
- [46:22]
A
Good. Because, so it, it's like, yes, it's like missional and our purpose in sharing the gospel and what we're called to do there. And it's also, like, should be something in our own hidden, private, personal lives that we're practicing with ourselves.
- [46:37]
D
Yeah.
- [46:37]
A
And in every area of our life, we should be asking the question, does this glorify God? Is God Lord of my life in this area?
- [46:45]
D
Yeah.
- [46:45]
A
And so even something Grant I continuous with, you know, we live in a pretty nice house in Brentwood, Tennessee, in, you know, a nice little neighborhood, a little quaint, cute neighborhood. And we're constantly like, is this okay, should we sell this and go live in a little town? I was literally having a conversation with a friend yesterday about this. And these are, like, conversations we're, you know, having continuously. Is it okay to have the clothes that we have in our closet? Should we get rid of it and have, like, our 10 outfits? You know, is, you know, and then constantly asking, like, like, have we been giving into food too much? Should we cut out sweets? Should we fast for a little bit? Like, those are the kind of things of, how can I starve my flesh? How can I say no to my flesh, but then make sure, like, I'm continuously feeding my spirit and making sure that, you know, God is lord of my life. Because we just. You're. You're. You're never going to naturally drift that way. You have to, like, make yourself go there.
- [47:44]
D
And the saying no to yourself is kind of a good test for this because everything is relative. Right. You mentioned, like, house or cars or what. It's all relative. The question becomes, is there are. Am I practicing denying myself? You know, for the sake of the kingdom? My dad used to, when I was growing up, he. I did not do this with my kids because it drove me nuts when I was a kid. But he would say, we'd ask for something, you know, and he would say no. And when you'd say why, he would. His line was so stupid. He was, because you need practice at taking a no. And I just was infuriated. Like, that is the worst. You're just saying no to me because you think I need practice at taking a no. However, there's something very spiritual about that discipline of being like, the harder it is for me to take a no, the harder it is for me to. To say no to myself. Yeah. The greater the indication is that I need to learn to. I need more no's in my life.
- [48:49]
A
Yeah. Recently, Grant, I got off of social media because same thing you were confessing was I noticed, like, my screen time was so high, and I was like, lord, I'll be honest, I think you're a lord in a lot of areas of my life. But when it comes to work and when it comes to screen time, I don't know, because I am constantly in control mode and work mode and on my phone because of that and screen time. And I just got so convicted of it, and I. And then, you know, even fell into the traps of, like, on social media comparison and, you know, I'm doing this, but, you know, she's doing this, and. And I just was like, it's not worth it. Like, I don't even know that I'm fully trusting God with my calling and purpose because I'm constantly comparing my calling and purpose to this person or this person. And it just, I constantly felt convicted. But it was like, okay, now what? What am I going to do about it? And so I made the decision to get off social media for a year. Year.
- [49:38]
D
And I'm like, for a year?
- [49:39]
A
For a year. You guys know I'm really passionate about making decisions that align your faith with your values, especially when it comes to your family. And one area where that can really feel challenging right now is healthcare. Costs keep rising and it's hard to feel confident that you're choosing the right path. That's why I wanted to share something I've been learning about called Liberty Health Share. It's not health insurance, it's a healthcare sharing ministry, which means you're joining a community of believers who come together to help carry one another's medical expenses. And what I love about it is that it's not just practical, it's rooted in faith. It's people living out the idea that we're stronger when we support each other and show up for one another. I know so many of you are in seasons where you're making big decisions for your future and your family. They offer programs for different stages of life and different budgets. So whether you're newly married, starting a family, or just looking for a better, more aligned approach, it's worth checking out. If you've been praying about a better way to navigate healthcare, this could be something to look into. You can learn more@liberty healthshare.org that's liberty healthshare.org Liberty Health Share a Force for Good I'm a big believer that the way we steward our bodies matters, and one of the most overlooked parts of that is getting good sleep. We can eat well, stay active, and have healthy routines, but if we're not resting well, it affects everything. That's why I've genuinely loved having our Brooklyn Bedding mattress. There's something so comforting about ending a long day day climbing into a bed that's actually supportive and waking up feeling rested and ready for whatever God has planned that day. I also love that every Brooklyn Bedding mattress is designed and assembled right here in Arizona with incredible craftsmanship. They are one of the few mattress brands endorsed by the American Chiropractic association for spinal alignment and back health, and they have options for every sleep style. So there's truly something for everyone. And if you're Hesitant to buy a mattress online. They even offer a 120 night comfort trial so you can make sure it's the right fit for you. Go to BrooklynBedding.com and use my promo code Stay true at checkout to get 30% off site wide. This offer is not available anywhere else. That's brooklynbetting.com and promo code stay true for 30% off site wide. Support our show and let them know that we sent you after checkout. BrooklynBetting.com promo code Stay true.
- [52:02]
C
Wow.
- [52:02]
A
And I'm, I don't know, four or five months in, and it's actually been the most, like, incredible thing. It's been the most incredible thing. It's like I'm. I'm. I'm five months sober and I'm like, I see the world through a new. A new lens and I'm so much
- [52:14]
D
more present harder initially or. I mean, does it feel easier now or not?
- [52:18]
A
First month was like, you know, rainbows and butterflies. And then month two, it exposed a lot. It exposed my need to be constantly busy and distracted. It exposed my, I think, FOMO of like, not seeing everything that was going on. It exposed, I think my fear of becoming irrelevant. It exposed a lot the. The second month and Grant even noticed it. My husband was like, you're taking a lot of things out on me that I. I don't think it's actually me. I think there's some other stuff going on.
- [52:54]
D
Is he doing it with me?
- [52:55]
B
You?
- [52:55]
A
He is. He actually started it, so I kind of followed in his suit. So he's actually coming up on his year being done.
- [53:01]
D
Did you replace it with something?
- [53:03]
A
Honestly, I've just been memorizing a ton of scripture and that has been so huge for me. And I talk about it a lot on the podcast, but, like, ch. Like, I. I was always someone who, like, memorized verses, but I've been memorizing, like, books of the Bible and that has. I mean, it's what Romans 12:2 talks about. Like, it literally has renewed my mind and restored, like, my idea of. Of security and purpose and calling and all of these different things that have so easily become infiltrated and defined by what culture says versus, like, what Scripture says. And so memorizing like, books of the Bible has. Is just like, it's helped me so much and it's just like, it just flows out of you so that when people have questions or thoughts or whatever, like, it's just so, you know, easily.
- [53:49]
D
Is he doing that with you? Is he memorizing with you?
- [53:52]
A
He is not as, like. Like, I have, like, my. My friends and my team and my girls. Like, we. We, like, do it together. And so we're on Colossians, the book of Colossians now. And that is really fun, but it is. It's just like. I don't know. I really enjoy it, but it's not. It's. It. It's become easier. It started out really, really hard, but I started doing it right when I entered postpartum because my quiet time looked so different, where I now didn't have this time to sit down with my B. And my study Bible and my journal and, like, three hours at the coffee shop. Like, now it looks so different. And so it's been cool because it's really developed now into where it's this, like, continual prayer, this, like, meditation on Scripture, this memorization of Scripture. Okay. And now, like, you know, Hosanna is able to be, like, more independent where I can, like, during her nap time or independent playtime, like, I can actually sit down and, like, open up the word and, like, study it. But for a long time, that's not what it looked like. So I just started memorizing Scripture. Scripture.
- [54:53]
D
You know, first let me just say that hearing you share that was really good for me. Like, that as you're talking, I'm like, that. That's. That's what I'm missing. I. Is that it's the. And what came to mind when I asked you if you replaced it with something was like, I'm trying to say no to some of this over here, but I need something to say yes with. You know, that's. That's part of denying yourself. It's not just saying no. No, it is replacing it. There is. You know, there. There is. It's the language of. This is the expulsive power of a new affection. Is this. This idea that when you say no to yourself and you don't replace it, that. That becomes a heavier burden, but if you replace it with something that is a yes to Jesus, like, that's denying. And I think that's so important. Like, the Christian life is not just a series of you saying no to things. It's a series of you saying, saying yes to Jesus as Lord. And so what that often looks like is replacement. I don't know that I've done that. I think I've been practicing saying no, but I need to practice on saying yes. The other thing that came to mind, as you were, Sharon, is my. And you might identify with this. My inclination can become okay, I'm saying no to this, and then I'm going to start, and then it becomes constant content for me. You know that it's a chapter in a book, Right? Of course.
- [56:17]
A
And.
- [56:17]
D
And my.
- [56:18]
A
I had to resist that. So.
- [56:19]
D
Oh, gosh, it's hard.
- [56:20]
A
And.
- [56:20]
B
Because I.
- [56:21]
D
Because it can come from a really sincere place of being, like, oh, I want to help people. I think that's right. I'm not saying it shouldn't be content. I'm saying that my check needs to be.
- [56:30]
A
Yeah.
- [56:30]
D
You know, okay. I'm doing this as a. As a spiritual commitment, as a follower of Jesus. And when. When my. My mind will sometimes too quickly shift towards, oh, I'll use this as an administration. Yeah, I can use this.
- [56:47]
A
Totally. And I, you know, I say on this podcast often, like, you know, God, I feel like I'm in a season of saying no to a lot of things, saying yes to other things. But it's also like this season of my life could look wildly different than what God's calling. You know, whoever. Sally or whoever is listening to this podcast right now. Two to where maybe God's not calling you to get off social media for a year, but what is the thing that he's calling you to cut out of your life, Remove from your life. That is leading to distraction. That's leading to, you know, a separation of what you could have with him. And that was what that was for me. And I'm saying no to a lot. Like, I'm saying no to all my speaking engagements. I'm saying no to writing and books. And so that it has been a huge season of. And kind of where I would love to end the conversation that I feel like you do such a good job of talking about this in your books, is what I felt. Felt the Holy Spirit speak to me was fight to be irrelevant. Like, fight to put yourself in positions where you are having conversations with people. You're serving, you're hosting, you're loving, you're seeing people in ways where you're not being praised for it. It's not seen, it's not purchased, it's not paid. It's not. And it's just between you and the Lord and whoever's involved. And. But the. Just the private life, the hidden life, the, you know, just intimacy with the Lord and. And, you know, I don't know when this season's gonna end. Maybe it goes longer than a year, but that's where I feel like God has me right now. But I. I just feel like we have to fight that so hard, especially in America, but in our world today of we want to be relevant and we want to chase the crown and not the cross, and we want to, you know, gain God and all of God's blessings, but we don't want to give it all up for God and lay our life down for him. And it's so anti how Jesus lived his life. You talk about this all throughout your book. Book. And so how can we resist that pull to chase fame and to, you know, be a fan instead of a follower? How can we, you know, resist that pull to shaping Jesus into who we want him to be because of what it benefits us instead of, you know, laying our life down for him and. And honoring, like, our private life and our hidden moments and who we are alone with God and how we serve others with no one around. And I just would love to sit there for a second because I think that that's such a huge temptation in a world where everything is about not only capturing moments, but sharing moments and for everything being seen. And so how do we resist that? Because a passage in scripture that absolutely terrifies me, Kyle, is Matthew 7, when Jesus says, many will come before me. And it, like, genuinely makes me cry because I'm like, many are gonna come before the Lord one day and say, lord, Lord, I did all of these things for you. I prophesied, I drove out demons. I posted about you. I started this brand for you. I did all of these things for you, God. And he's gonna look at them and say, but I never knew you. We didn't have a relationship. You didn't make me Lord of your life. You abused my name for the sake of building up your own name.
- [59:47]
D
Yeah.
- [59:48]
A
And I just. It terrifies me because I don't ever want that to be my story. But anyone listening or anyone that I have an opportunity to share Jesus with. Yeah, I just want to. I want to touch on that for a second.
- [59:59]
D
I mean, that passage is so convicting to me, too. You know, if you look at Matthew 7, you think, okay, well, when's the last time, you know, I did those things?
- [60:08]
A
Right, right.
- [60:09]
D
And. And those seems like really spiritual examples. And yet Jesus, like, yeah, yeah, you did these things, but you didn't know me. And I. I think our tendency to build a case for ourselves by pointing to the things we do kind of reveals why this is an issue. Right. Like, if I, as a pastor, if I say, look, I. I can. I want to point to my. Here's what I've done. But what Jesus points Us to. I'll use John 15 as an example of this. Jesus says, I'm the vine, you're the branch. If you remain in me and I remain in you, you'll bear much fruit. There will be things that you accomplish apart, but apart from me, you can't do anything. And. And this idea of being. Being the branch. Like, okay, my priority is going to be connection, not production. And the shift that has to take place for me oftentimes, especially as a pastor, is I'll get into this mentality that. That confuses the two, like, oh, production is connection, and it's not. Or that production earns connection and it doesn't. Wow. It's connection. And then out of that production comes. But if. If you're trying to produce outside of connection, then stop the producing and focus on the connection.
- [61:22]
A
So good.
- [61:23]
D
And. And so one of the, you know, the ideas of just. Just God today, help me. Help me just be the branch. I'll trust you with the fruit, but let me just focus on being. Being the branch.
- [61:34]
A
So good. We literally just had. At our church, our pastor was talking on John 15 and literally said very similar words of. She. It was. I don't know if you met Noah Heron, but his wife, Maddie Heron, was actually the one teaching on Mother's Day. And she was saying. She was like, hey, just an encouragement. Today, you're just a branch. You're just the branch. And. And I. I thought that was so encouraging because there is such a freedom and a relief that I don't have to work so hard. I don't have to strive, I don't have to perform. I don't have to prove. I don't show you. It's like, there's such a freedom and, like, I get to just connect to the source. Like, who's your source? Yeah, because if I'm the source, I'm gonna run dry, I'm gonna run tired, I'm gonna be exhausted, and it's never gonna be enough. Yeah, but if he's the source, then he can do immeasurably more, and I get to just stay connected to him. And it's so freeing and it's so relieving, because that's what I fall into is, like, performance. I'm a competitor. I'm a. You know, I played basketball my whole life, and so I want to be the best of the best. And I want to perform, improve, and show. Like, I can be the best. And it's so easy, especially in our culture, when everything is measured on production. And you know what you can do to fall into that. But I love that you're speaking to that. Like, if. If your production is your focus and that is what you're pouring all your time, energy, and focus into, then maybe you need to, like, stop for a second and just focus on the connection and get back to that place of who is Jesus to me? And have I accepted him as Lord and as Savior? Like, is He. Has he saved me not only from hell, but from myself? And is he actually Lord of my life? Like, am I submitted to His Lordship? And so I love that. I would love to just have you pray for those listening that maybe they're like, man, I don't know that I've actually ever made. Like, maybe I, like, had that moment where I came down the front or I raised my hand and accepted Jesus into my heart, but I don't know that I've actually ever, like, heard that language of, you know, submitting to his. His Lordship and. And what it looks like to make Him Lord of my life. And so I'd love for you to just pray for those listening.
- [63:42]
D
Do that, God, thank you. That in you we find life, and we put our faith and our confidence, our trust in you. We believe that what you tell us is true and that what you speak to us is out of your love for us, God, where we don't really believe that. I pray that you would reveal it and expose that and convict it, convict us of it. I pray, God, that we would understand that your call to follow you with our. Our whole hearts is. It really is an invitation to life. And so, God, don't let us be people who just live with one foot following you and the other foot going a different direction. I pray that we would be all in. And in doing that, that we would really discover the joy of abundant life in you. I pray for each person listening to this that has accepted you as Savior. But it's kind of been a transactional relationship. Or maybe they are following you in a way that's super comfortable. God, I pray they would hear this and. And not feel a bunch of guilt and shame. But. But instead of hearing accusation, that they would hear invitation that this would be an invitation to follow you differently and that you, through your spirit, would just show them some different ways where they can let go of some things, where they can surrender some things. God, I know that just because I know myself, I know that sometimes the hardest thing to let go of is that thing that we're justifying, that we're defensive of. And so I Just pray you would reveal that and then give us the courage and humility to let go of it and, and trust you with it. So Lord, thank you for meeting us right where we're at. Jesus, thank you for setting us us for us an example of what this looks like to live life as your followers. And so for today, I pray that you would let us do that with our whole hearts. It's in Jesus name. Amen.
- [65:31]
A
Amen. That was so good. It's not an accusation, but an invitation. I thought that was so good.
- [65:37]
D
Oh, good.
- [65:37]
A
I wanted to say that again for those who may have missed that.
- [65:40]
D
You know, one of the things like with not a fan and with these books is I, I never want it to be like people to read it and be like, like for it to be shaming.
- [65:49]
A
Yeah.
- [65:49]
D
Because I don't think that's the, I don't think that's the spirit of the gospel, you know, but that sometimes the, the, the difference between an accusation and invitation is. Doesn't feel like much.
- [65:59]
A
But yeah, there's a difference. Yeah. Because there's so much grace and so much truth. But that's how I mean that. That was Jesus's message. That's Jesus's life. And so I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for these messages and for the missing Messiah. I'm going to include the link for you guys to go and buy the book as well as not a fan. I mean, truly, this book has changed my life and I' halfway through the Missing Messiah and it's so, so good. So I can't wait to finish that one. But I'm so grateful that you came on and shared your wisdom in this message with us. And I know everyone who listened is encouraged and impacted by your yes. And your obedience. So just can't thank you enough. And as always, guys, be sure to stay you and stay true. We love you. Stay True podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [67:06]
C
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