← Stay True with Madison Prewett Troutt
Stay True with Madison Prewett Troutt
The Secret to Building a Marriage that Lasts with Jimmy Rollins
01:03:28
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- [00:07]
A
What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Stay True podcast. I am your host, Madison Pruitt Trout, and I'm here with special guest Jimmy Rollins.
- [00:18]
B
Special guest.
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A
Special guest. And he is special. And we're missing his amazing wife, who is supposed to be here, but she's here with us, you guys. I mean, two equals one, right?
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B
She's here in spirit.
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A
She is here in spirit. It's like she's in the room.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
But we do miss her. So we'll just have to do a rerun. I'll come to Dallas this time and then be on our podcast. Yeah. Oh, perfect. Amazing. Well, Jimmy, I'm so excited that you're on Stay True podcast. I actually saw Jimmy, heard Jimmy for the first time when my husband and I went to Shoreline City Church shout out in Dallas, Texas, and you were preaching, I looked at Grant and I was like, this is one of the most powerful messages I've ever heard in my life.
- [01:01]
B
Wow.
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A
And I was so fired up. I was like, I don't even know how to contain. Like, I wanted to just run out of the church. But you're so anointed to preach the word, and so I am so excited to have you on to preach truth, to share truth, to share wisdom. But also, I remember you talking about your story and you and your wife's story. And so I am so excited to dive into that because that really stuck with me. Just your vulnerability and transparency and also God's power and redemption through what he's done through Yalls marriage in your life. And so I know this podcast is going to help so many of you guys, because no matter where you're at, we're gonna be talking all about marriage, just to let you guys know. But no matter where you're at, you know, single, dating, engaged, married, married with marriage problems, divorce, doesn't matter where you're at, relationship status wise. I really do think this podcast is going to help a ton. And so I'm excited. Jimmy and his wife have a ministry and a new book out called two Equals One. So I'm going to link that for you guys to go and check out. And so we're going to be talking a lot about that. So, yeah, welcome to Stay True.
- [02:10]
B
Well, thank you. I'm honored to be here. Even though I am wifeless, you know, we're still together. Like, we're still married, you know, because that would be occupational hazard, right? But she's not feeling well. And thank you for still having us, because I was like, man, maybe they're going to cancel on me now?
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A
No, I'm just joking. After I heard that message, I was like, I got to meet Pastor Jimmy. Because you. You seriously preached the house down. I think it was all about, like, the Israelites getting out of Egypt or something like that. But it was. It was so good. So now I need to go, like, find that message and link that too, because now everybody's like, I want to hear the message. But we actually have so many mutual friends. We were talking about that.
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B
We do before this. We have Mayo and Kai, all the Highlands folks. Dino and Del.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And then just some people who live here. You know, John and Lisa. I think Lisa was on your last podcast, and I texted them, we'll see if they text back. We'll see what happens.
- [03:00]
A
We'll see if they have time. Right. No, I'm excited to talk about relationships and marriage and to dive in, because I'm excited to just learn, even. I mean, I'm two years in, so I'm a marriage expert at this point, you know?
- [03:13]
B
Absolutely.
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A
We've got it all figured out. No, and. But you guys have been married for how long?
- [03:18]
B
25 years. We celebrated on in June. I even know the date. June 5th.
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A
Did you do something romantic?
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B
No, we didn't.
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A
Oh, okay.
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B
Literally, I think we ate. We just ordered it in Chinese and ate, and it was great. And I went to bed, and she went to bed, and we woke up the next day. 25 years in.
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A
Amazing. Amazing. And sometimes it's those nights that are the best kind of night.
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B
Absolutely. Watch the movie. It was great.
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A
Yeah. You know, that's perfect. Well, 25 years of marriage. You guys have been through a lot. You've learned a lot, and we have a lot to learn from you guys. And so I am. I would love to just hear, like, a little bit about you and your marriage. I got. Well, I got to hear some of it when you were preaching at Shoreline. But for those who don't know, Pastor Jimmy and his wife Irene, I would just love to hear Yalls story.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
What God has done.
- [04:13]
B
Well, thank you. What's up, everybody? I am excited to tell our story because that's what we do when we testify. Like, we overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our. And testimony requires you to talk about what you don't want to talk about.
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A
Yep.
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B
So that God can get the glory. And I think a lot of times we have to normalize that marriage is hard. We have to normalize that people get dysfunctional. We have to normalize Family of origin, you know, issues and family trauma and past. We all have a past, and we don't talk about it. And I think if we start talking about it, then maybe we can overcome more things, because the word is very clear. Confess your sins to God that you may be forgiven. Confess your sins to one another that you might be healed. I think too many Christians are walking around forgiven and not healed because they don't want to be in relationship with people. Even single people say, I refuse to get married because of hurt, because of trauma. And so Irene and I, as I said, We've married 25 years. It's been about the best 10 years ever.
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A
The best 10 years ever.
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B
The best ten years ever. And I will never forget being on a stage on another podcast, and there was a comedian who was kind of hosting it, and he asked us, how long you guys been married? And I told him, how long y'all been in love? And he separated the question. And I said, about 10 years. And tell me more about that, he says. And I was like, well, love what I've discovered that I kind of liked my wife for 15 years, but I wasn't in love with her trauma. I wasn't in love with her pain. I wasn't in love with her past. I did not know or accept that God gave me the assignment to help heal the things inside of her, to be the tangible hands and feet of Jesus to my wife. And this is the two equals one. This is the equation that God uses in this thing called marriage. I mean, that first commandment to be fruitful, multiply, subdue, so that we could have dominion, that we can bring heaven to earth. Well, he needs a vehicle to do that. And the vehicle of fruitfulness is marriage.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so of course the enemy is going to fight hate it. Of course we're going to have 15 bad years. Right. And we might have more. But what we know now is that we are one another's blueprint for healing. And I think that's the thing, that when people get married, they spend all of this money, all of this time on a day, and not much time on a life. And I am excited on this side of it. We walked through it. I'm talking. We're pastoring, we're doing ministry. Our church is growing. I'm traveling around the world. I could preach to tens of thousands, but couldn't talk to the one I laid next to every night. And it was a recipe for disaster. But I love the fact that what the enemy meant for bad God turned around for Good. And so that's like a. There's details. There's. You know, I don't mind talking about the rated R version of it. I don't mind, like, I'm not going to just talk about the PG version of it, because people who are listening right now, they're going through real life, they're going through real struggles, they're hiding real past trauma. And when you recognize that the safest place that God gives us to share our greatest hurt is with your spouse. But if we're hiding and we're not free and all the things, then we're going to stuff that, and that resentment builds up, and then that disappointment builds up. Or maybe if you're single and you keep. You're stuck in the cycle of the same person, that just looks different. Why do I always attract this kind of person?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Oh, it's because you're not healed.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So I know I could talk for days. You might have questions, but you gave.
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A
Me, like, 40 questions.
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B
Let's go. Let's rip it apart.
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A
And I would love. I actually would love for you to. To dive in if. If you're open to a little bit more about what. That. What those years of. You said 15 years of struggle and tension and, I mean, marriage problems looked like, because I think, you know, we have two different groups of people who are probably listening. Some who are, you know, married and either married and happy or married and struggling, and then some who are single and want to be married. But maybe, like you said, they're attracting the wrong people or they're not dating well or are unaware of what, you know, the weight of marriage, the cost of marriage, the gift of marriage, the true meaning of marriage. And so I think we're speaking to different groups of people, but it's a helpful conversation for all.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
So I'd love for you to dive in a little bit more about what that looked like.
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B
Absolutely. I think for the first 15 years, it looked like, you know, modeling our marriage after culture. Right. Modeling our marriage after a slow jam, a song, you know, and we all have this picture and this highlight reel of what marriage is. But I didn't know marriage was hard. I didn't know marriage was, you know, times of sick, you know, her being sick or me being sick. I didn't understand that marriage was time of me being hurt by or betrayed by a friend. You know, we're pastoring a church. I didn't know that living in the fishbowl of pastoring a church, that would also. It would bring tension to our marriage. And so I think through that, you know, we, me personally, I started winning at the wrong thing. And I didn't know that my marriage should be the number one priority. I thought my career should be because I'm here to provide. No. But I'm also here to protect. And I got it out of balance. And I learned that winning at the wrong thing was actually losing at the right thing.
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A
Wow.
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B
I was behind a pulpit and loved the cheers of the crowd and loved that. Hiding issues with pornography, hiding issues with control. And because I wasn't pastoring at home, alcohol started pastoring my wife. That one drink that I need to calm down, that I need to de. Stress turned into hiding water bottles, hiding vodka in water bottles over a five year period. And it literally dysfunction took over our marriage. Alcohol didn't take over our marriage, Pornography didn't take over our marriage. Those were medicating the dysfunction in our marriage. And who do you talk to? And so I'm a pastor. Who do I say?
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I remember never forgetting the Easter of, I think, 2012. We just launched our church. You know, 3,000 people show up. It looks successful to Everybody, you know, 500 salvations. And that's, you know, that's Instagramable. Right. And no one knew that I hadn't seen my wife for two weeks because I was staying at a hotel. And I remember going back to the green room and saying, God, if you're using me to bring people into the kingdom, if you're using me to grow the bride of Christ, do you want me. What do you want me to do with my own bride? And it was in that moment that I called an overseer, I called a friend, I called Dino Rizzo, and I said, man, I'm tired of pretending. It's impossible to keep up with who we pretend to be. And I was faking the funk for a long time. And it looked like fights every night. It looks like. It looked like literally us fighting. You know, we're two. You know, we say it in every marriage is a tiger and a turtle. We are definitely two tigers. It looks like cursing each other out and then going to preach the word of God on a Sunday morning. And I got tired of it and I just said, I can't do this anymore. And I remember giving my wife an ultimatum and saying, you either deal with your alcoholism or we're done. And at that time, I thought that that was the only option, but I had no idea that our rock bottom was the foundation that we would build the rest of our Lives on. And she was away at rehab for. We took a year off from church. She was away at rehab for 45 days. And I'll never forget what the counselor said to me, Maddie, she said, you can't leave Irene. I said, why? And I said, I'm paying you, lady. You know what I mean? She said, because the healed Irene that's going to come back won't have the opportunity to address the wounds that the sick, dysfunctional Irene created. And another friend said to me, you will never have the wife you want until you learn to love the wife you have. And that was the beginning of hundreds of hours of counseling, hundreds of thousands of dollars of intensives and counseling twice a week. And doing all the things in this November 12th, Irene just celebrated nine years of sobriety. Come on.
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A
Praise Jesus.
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B
Come on. God's good.
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A
Praise Jesus.
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B
And I have lost because I got unhealthy because I not only had a pornography issue, I had a Kentucky Fried Chicken issue. And it spiraled into £420 and I've lost £168, praise God, since then. Just getting healthy.
- [13:09]
A
Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing all that. Absolutely, man. And, and I love, there's so many things you touched on that I, I, I love that you addressed the power of confession, the power of bringing things into the light, because that's something I talk about a ton on this podcast. Because only when we bring things to the light can we truly begin to start getting healed. And it's our secrets that kill us. It's our secrets that, you know, where Satan thrives, where Satan just. You stay in the same cycle, so your secrets make you sick. And so I talk about that all the time. Just the power of confession. Not only confessing to God, which is so important, like you said, in which we receive forgiveness, but also that power of confession and calling up a friend and saying, hey, I can't, I can't. I need you to step in. Like, I don't, I don't have the faith to keep going right now. Like, I need to borrow some of your faith. Like, I don't have the strength. I don't know the prayers to pray. I don't know the wisdom to walk in. Like, I need your help right now. And we're all going to have those moments. And so thank you for sharing that, man. I love for you to even just, like, take a second and speak to. You were talking about just, like, winning at the wrong thing.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I thought that was so powerful. Would you take a second and speak to, like, Men right now. And yeah, I'm like, that fired me up. I'm like, and then, you know, we can say some things to the ladies too. But I would love for you to speak into, like, what does it look like to be a godly husband?
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B
Wow. I think the foundation of that is who we're modeling being a husband after. And I think a lot of people who are listening to this podcast and a lot of people in our society, they have not had a good model of a godly man. They haven't had a good model of someone that's not perfect, but someone who knows how to get back up once they have fallen down. And I think we, we attribute godliness to perfection, not godliness to that. He can bring a greater purpose out of our pain. He can be, bring a greater purpose out of our past. And I will say that the most comfortable time of me being a father is right now. And I have a 22 year old son. And not because I'm perfect, because I passed down to him redemption and reconciliation. And this is how we get back up. And this is what we do when we fail and fall. And the body of Christ teaches us how to knock it out of the park. How to be perfect, but not how to find purpose out of our pain. So when we look at this model of godliness to a man, I think there's no better than Joseph. Right. Like, I'm talking about the, the, the, the husband of Mary. Like, and if you read the begats. I never read the begats, by the way. I just skip over that Matthew. But so and so begat so and so. And it's literally giving the lineage.
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Yeah, right.
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Of Jesus Christ. And all of these people are named in the begats based off of what they, or what they. What's the word I'm looking for? Produced. I produced the son. I produced this, I produced that. And then it says, gets to Joseph and it says Joseph, the husband of Mary. It doesn't talk about what he produced. He's named for what he protected.
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A
Wow.
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And in this phase of my life for so long, I was so concentrated on what I produced and what I provided in my legacy and my lineage. And now I'm thinking we're going to change that. I'm going to protect the anointing on my wife. I'm going to make sure that she walks in the things that God has called her to walk in. And if you literally pick apart that passage of scripture, you see that they got to go on a 70 mile, some theologians say, from Nazareth to Bethlehem and a donkey and through Jezreel and through horrible terrain and horrible circumstances of her could be stoned. Right. Because of what the angel Gabriel said to her. And I love the fact that in my picture, Joseph walked while she rode. Joseph preferred her purpose and her destiny. I feel like that that is what I want to model to my son and to the men who are listening to this podcast. It is not about what you produce, but you will be assessed if you will. You will be find purpose in what you protect.
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A
Wow.
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And so you know, my word to grant is protect the anointing on your wife, homie. But I think that that is the model of a man, is what I protect, not just what I provide.
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A
That's so good. And not. You don't hear that. You really don't. You don't hear that talked about. And that's so powerful. Okay. I would love to now speak to. For those who are single.
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Yes.
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A
And they want to be married. Yes. Maybe they are afraid of marriage. Maybe they've had really bad relationships in the past. Maybe they are putting their hope in marriage. Wow. I would love for you to speak to. And this was actually in. In your notes about your book. So you guys need to go read Two Equals One. And I'm excited to read it, actually.
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B
I think it's pretty good.
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A
I mean, I'm excited to read it, but what are three signs that you should not get married to someone that you're dating? What are three signs that would keep you from marrying someone that you're potentially interested?
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B
That's a great question. And I think the number one sign is, are they emotionally healthy? And you don't know that until you go through something while you're dating, how did they respond? Did they check their anger? Did they make it about what's going on in them versus what you did or what you said or the characteristic that you presented so emotionally healthy is. It says, huh. You know, if we had an argument right now, I'd say, matty, I'm so sorry that you felt that way. Is there something in me that made you feel that way? And then I would address that. I'm so sorry. And then I would look inside and ask myself, what's coming up for me? Not blaming you for what's coming up for me, not attributing that. No. No one can make us do anything. Hopefully everybody brushed their teeth this morning. And when you took that toothpaste out and you put some pressure on what was in came out.
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Yeah.
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And I think so many Single people are waiting for other people to fix us when we need to be emotionally aware enough within ourselves to ask ourselves what's coming up for us. If you can't ask that question the first time you feel something, you ain't ready to be married. Number one.
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Yeah.
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Number two, do they have a relationship with God? Like, are they? You want abs, but you gonna need anointing, right? Like, I ain't never had an AB in my life. I have a keg. Come on. Never had an AB in my life. I'm so glad my wife wasn't after Abs because she's fit, she's all the things. And when I'm traveling, people are like, how did you get her? Because I'm me, just to let you know. But are they anointed? Can they pray? Do they have a prayer life? You know, do they worship? Because here's the deal. Women are going to want intimacy. And if he doesn't lift his hands in church, if he doesn't sing the songs, if he's not worshiping, if he's not reading his word, he's not a worshiper. And the only way that you can be sacrificial and live sacrificial is if you live with the mindset of worship. Like, worship requires sacrifice. So if they're not worshiping, they can't sacrifice for you. Sorry.
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Yeah, that's good.
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That's just the truth, number one. Number two, and I would say that number three is, I don't want to say this. I think we go after the wrong things. You know, I've got three young single adult children, you know, 23, 22, and they're all talking about, what is my son? What does she look like? What's her curves look like? All the things he's going, and my daughter's like, you know, is he fit? Does he have, you know, a shape up? You know, all the dumb things. Right? And I think the thing that is most valuable is, is do they have the capacity to love my humanity?
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A
Wow.
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B
If they don't got capacity, and how do you find that? Look at their family and see who they love that don't love them back. Look at their relationships with their co workers. When someone ticks them off, did they just cut them off or do they love them back? Like the nature of the God we serve, Right? Like, in order for love to be defined in its purpose, it has to find sin.
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Yeah.
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God is love. He doesn't decide to love. He doesn't wake up and say, you know what? You cooked me Dinner. So I love you. You know, you made your promise, or you stayed to your promise. So I love you. No, no. While we were yet sinners.
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Yeah.
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Christ died for us. Love. Let me say it this way. Love is at its best when people are at their worst.
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A
Wow.
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B
So you got to go through something to see does he have the capacity or she. I think those are three good points. That might be a book right there.
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A
Those are really good points. And I know a lot of people just took a lot of notes. I was even taking some mental notes, but that's so good. Okay, so. And I love that you talked about the capacity component, too, because I think some people are. Are willing, you know, to love you, but don't have the capacity to love you, don't have the capability to love you. And then some have the capability, but they don't want to. They don't want to put in the work and effort, you know, and so paying attention to both of those things is important. And you kept speaking to really, even, like, patterns, like, pay attention to their patterns. How do they respond when something doesn't go their way? How do they respond when their anger is triggered or they don't get, you know, the. The love or the affection from, you know, someone in their family or, you know, like, paying attention to those things is so, so important. I talk about that a lot. I wrote a relationships book and talked a lot about the emotional patterns.
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B
Listen to it. Listen to it.
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A
Y. A hot pink cover, so maybe let Irene hold it, and you can kind of secure. Okay, good.
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B
And what God has called me to be as a man, I don't mind. I got a pink hat reading that.
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A
But I talk a lot about patterns, and I talk about how important that is, because I think a lot of times we can go off of passion, and then we realize, oh, dang. Like. Like you were saying, you know, abs, instead of anointing, it's like we can go off of looks or the superficial and then realize when we're. When we're in deep, it's like, oh, man. Like, I don't just need someone who, you know, gets me going. Like, I need someone who be a rock. Like, I need someone that I can count on. I need someone that's reliable, that's consistent, that's on their knees, that's, you know, interceding for us and for me in prayer. And so I love that you spoke to that. And now I'd love to kind of shift into marriage for those who are. Are listening and they're married, they Want to be married. What if they're in a place right now where their marriage feels like it is on the line and it's. It's struggling and they feel like they're kind of barely hanging on? They don't really know. I get. I get a lot of dms and messages, actually about this. And because I'm still so newly married, sometimes I don't feel like I'm in a place to really speak into that other than finding scripture about it. But I feel like this will be really helpful to hear from you when you're in a place, when you're married and your marriage is on the line and you just don't know what to do.
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B
Wow.
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A
What are ways that you can revive your marriage?
- [25:14]
B
Yeah, What a great question. I think if you're listening, just understand that you're in good company. Like, if things are hard, you're in good company. If marriage is tough, you're in good company. The enemy wants us to think that we're alone in it.
- [25:29]
A
Yeah. So true.
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B
Everyone is struggling. You know why? Because life happens to everyone. I like to say it this way. Life will always be lifing, and so marriage is always going to be hard.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I think this principle that I'm going to say, this first one, I don't want it to sound, you know, harsh, but it sometimes does, is we're not allowed to complain about the marriage that we refuse to work on. And so many people say it's hard. So many people say it's tough. God, you need to change him. You need to change her. What we're not saying is, God, change me. That takes work. That takes worship. That takes. You know, I've never, ever, ever seen my blind spot, ever. So how many people do you have around you to just say, hey, girl, you tripping? Right, homie, you need to chill. Stop talking about your wife with people who can't solve it. So many single people or so many people married, they're talking about, dude's got a bad marriage, and you asking advice. No, what you're actually doing is bearing false witness against your spouse.
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A
Wow.
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B
Right? So I would say the first thing is just say it's hard. It's never easy. Because our relationship with God is never easy. We have to sacrifice. So that's the number one is, are you ready to sacrifice? Because I have to lose all of me to find all of him. I have to say, God, more of you and less of me. In the weakest moment, in the hardest moment, it is so easy to pray. For God to change them. What I need to start doing is say, God, show me me. Your marriage is a mirror for you to see you.
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A
Yeah, that's the truth.
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B
Anytime Irene is ticked off at me, anytime I'm doing something that she has a facial expression that I'm trying to still figure out, like, stop cussing me out with your face, you know, God, what is it in me that needs a change? We don't ask that question. So if your marriage is hard right now, your prayer should be, God, show me me. Show me me. I think the second thing, if things are really, really, really hard right now, is do something different. Most people call their family members, call your sister, call your pastor. Well, if you always do the things you've done, you'll always get the things you've gotten. So I'm going to go to coaching, I'm going to go to counseling, I'm going to read a marriage book. I'm going to go to a marriage retreat. I'm going to go to intensive. I'm going to do something to work on this thing. I'm going to work on me. I'm going to look in my marriage Rolodex and say, who in my friends, in my friend group, my community, have a good marriage. I'm going to go talk to them about it. I'm going to get community. That's what you have to do. The enemy's greatest tactic is isolation.
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A
Yeah, right.
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B
And I like to say it this way. He'll always remind you of things of your past if you're not talking about those things in the present. The enemy can't keep you up late at night about stuff you're already talking about.
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A
Yeah, that's so true.
- [28:48]
B
Right. And I think the third thing in the marriage is forgiveness. Well, he never said I'm sorry. Well, she never said I'm sorry. Well, I just want to say it this way. Forgiveness is a decision. Reconciliation is a process. Forgiveness, it's the pre. It's the before of reconciliation. And in Irene and I's hardest moments, I had to wake up every day, even when she got back from rehab. And I was still finding water, vodka and water bottles. And I was still triggered because her location was at a liquor store. And I was still triggered because we didn't have reconciliation with her family yet. God, I forgive her every day. God, I forgive her. God, I forgive me. I forgive me. And in the practice doesn't make perfection. It makes permanent. And in the everyday nuance of worship and God, help me to forgive my wife. Help me to see her with eyes of grace. Now I'll take it on my own. God, help me have eyes that only seek after the body of my wife as a man. Uh oh, I said it. Help me with these lustful eyes looking at, you know, what I'm calling greener grass. But someone's actually taking care of their marriage. I was married and had already decided, you know, 10 years ago to be divorced. So I'm traveling around the country preaching, looking for my next wife. I had to ask God and repent and plead the blood of Jesus over eyes that coveted something else.
- [30:43]
A
Wow.
- [30:44]
B
Every day I pray, I wake up today, God help me that my eyes only desire the body of my wife. I think those are very practical things.
- [30:54]
A
Yeah. And so powerful of. It's so easy to see the speck in the other person's eye, you know, to see the sin in someone else's life. And that was mine and Grant's. I mean, first year of marriage, like, I was just constantly, you know, ticked off at him and just annoyed at how I didn't feel like he was loving me the way I wanted to be loved and deserved to be loved. And I, you know, started getting on my knees in the prayer closet, and it started out full like, God, change him. God change him. And then. And like you said, you know, and then God does something beautiful and he begins to change you. He begins to change your heart. And it went from God, you know, make him a better husband, to God, help me be the wife you've called me to be. God, show me how to love my husband when he does sin against me, when he does fall short and he fails. And I want to scream or I want to punch something or I want to withdraw and run away. Like, show me how to give grace in those moments. Show me how to forgive you. Forgive. I don't deserve forgiveness, so who am I to withhold it? Help me. I need you. And it was in those moments where the Lord began to do a work in my heart. And the crazy thing was, was as he began to work on my heart, our marriage started getting better. I mean, how crazy? You know, how it works, huh? And. And then. And I did start seeing, you know, you know, things in Grant him growing. And then I was growing. Then our marriage was growing. And it leads me to another question that I want to ask, too, because I've had a lot of even friends, like, reach out with going through marriage, you know, issues and struggles. What. What if you're in a situation where only one person is putting in the effort.
- [32:39]
B
Yeah.
- [32:39]
A
Where it feels like only one person in the marriage is, Is praying, is worshiping, is seeking counsel, is. Is making that effort. But the other person, maybe they're, maybe they had a really, really bad growing up home life experience and it didn't get exposed until marriage. You know, maybe whatever the case is, they lost their job and it ripped their identity away. I don't know, whatever the situation is, but it feels like there's only one person fighting for the marriage. What do you do in that situation?
- [33:13]
B
I think first I have complete empathy for that person. Like, if you're listening and that's you, you're like, yes, that's so me. Thank you for saying that. Like, I'm sorry. You know, my prayer is for you. My, my. I wake up. Irene and I wake up thinking about you. We wake up praying for you. We wake up. You know, when we do book signings, we have, they got this little process where they, you know, write down the name so I can spell it right on a sticky. And then I sign the book. We keep all the stickies so we can pray over them.
- [33:44]
A
Wow, that's awesome.
- [33:45]
B
And so we're praying for you. And I think one of the things that Jesus modeled, like, we have to go back to scripture, right? When he called the disciples, they were on a three and a half year crash course to represent the kingdom, right? To represent the gospel, the good news. And he started out with this phrase, follow me and I will make you fishers of men. And I think in that we can say God's calling us to be evangelists. But sometimes we have to evangelize our spouse. And the way we do that is just model it. The way we do that is not come at them, but speak in parables and speak in love and take time to pray and isolate. Let's look at Jesus. Jesus said, follow me, but then had places that they didn't go, right? Like, look at Scripture. He went in the garden alone. He prayed like he only took a little bit of people, you know, a few people. So follow me. And I think as husbands and wives, if we're feel like we're the only ones, we got to represent and go ahead and lean into the title that I am discipling my husband or my wife to learn and accept grace. I am discipling them to forgive. I am discipling them in healing. All the things that Jesus modeled to the disciples. We are called to evangelize our spouse. I look at the story in Mark, chapter two with the paralyzed guy on the mat. And so many Christians. God, send me. Send me God. I want to go on the mission field.
- [35:30]
A
Yeah.
- [35:31]
B
Sometimes your husband is a mission field. Sometimes your wife is a mission field. And why ask God to send you to the four corners of the earth if you refuse to grab one of the corners of your spouse's mat? I had to model forgiveness. I had to model to my wife the things of God. Again, it goes back to that protect. I protected our marriage based off of what I modeled. And now I'll never forget my wife a few weeks ago, you know, we had another family member struggle with addiction. And she said these words, and I'll never forget it. This is hot off the presses. She said, I just feel so bad because I might have passed down addiction. I said, babe, you need a turnaround thought. And she goes. She starts, oh, I've passed around something more powerful. Recovery.
- [36:30]
A
Wow. I have chills. It's so good.
- [36:33]
B
That's. That modeled to me that no matter what I go through, my wife has the anointing in her house to disciple me in that area.
- [36:43]
A
That's so powerful and in such a. I feel like I have not heard that response to that type of question. And I'm really thankful that you said that, because I think for a lot of women, we feel we don't know our place when our husband isn't leading or when our husband isn't, you know, being the leader of the home. It's like, well, what am I supposed to do? Because I'm supposed to submit to him. And so if I'm fighting for, you know, our marriage, and I'm the one praying, and I'm the one seeking the Lord and begging him, you know, to. To save our marriage. But my husband is, you know, yeah, he's stuck in porn, or he's turning to alcohol, or he's just disinterested. Like, he could care less. He doesn't want to go to counseling. He doesn't want to have the convers. I think for a lot of women, it can feel like a really helpless place to be. It's like, I don't really know what to do. And I think that's such a cool encouragement of just. You have a role of discipleship, too. You have a role of modeling the love and grace of Jesus Christ, too.
- [37:43]
B
Absolutely.
- [37:44]
A
And I'm so thankful that you said that. What can we talk for a second about just the. I love that you talked about forgiveness and offense, because I do think for a lot of relationships and for a lot of people in general, I was even reading in Second Corinthians a couple days ago, and it was talking about, like, forgiveness. And Paul was saying, like, we need to make sure that we're walking this out, because if we don't, like, we're get. We're giving Satan a foothold. Absolutely. We. We need to be aware of his schemes, because there's something to forgiveness like, that it has a hold on our heart like nothing else. And so when we're walking in unforgiveness or we're harboring bitterness or offense, the way that it. It robs us and it keeps us from operating in who God's called us to be, even, it's not just reserved for that relationship. It's like it bleeds into everything, everything, everything. And so for the person who is struggling with forgiving, what would be your encouragement? Because there are some people who have. I mean, they've been through some stuff, and they've been really hurt, you know, and, you know, maybe they've been cheated on or, you know, they've been abused or whatever their story is. It can be really, really hard to forgive. And it's one thing to say, like, I forgive you, and then to actually believe it and walk it out and to be free from that unforgiveness and that bitterness. And so what would your encouragement be to the person who's just really struggling with letting go of that unforgiveness?
- [39:19]
B
I think, first of all, I'm so grateful that you're doing this podcast. I'm so grateful that you have us on. I'm so grateful because there's so many people that just need help, and I feel like you're talking about real things. So thank you. I think God's pleased with this. You know, I think one of the things about unforgiveness is we can look at the current infraction, the current fracture, and say, I can't forgive. Unforgiveness is contagious, and it travels through seasons, it travels through years. You grew up, you got older, but the hurt was still there. And we think that the current situation that happened is why we don't forget. No, it's passed. Yeah, 100%. And I know this. I was sitting in counseling while Irene was going, while she was in rehab, and I was in my own rehab. Like, you know, I was, like, talking to a counselor almost daily, and I said, you know, just trying to figure out this whole unforgiveness thing. And she said, you know, she traced it back to my relationship with my mom. And I'm like, lady, I ain't paying you to talk about my mom. You know? And she said, no, we need to lean in here because your issue with Irene is not your issue with Irene. Your issue is with your mom.
- [40:44]
A
Wow.
- [40:45]
B
And I said, no, there's some things that I don't understand. And there was some. Literally, I got emotional. Like, I can feel it right now coming up in me because I'm emotionally mature. And I'll never forget her saying, because I had some things with my mom that I had, stories that I made up and things and built up resentment. Admit I'm 50 years old, but I'm still hurt from five. And she said to me, your mom did the best she could. I want you to look at her pain. Do you know anything about her story? I'm like, yeah. So I started talking about it. And she said, so if she were to come in your church and come to your altar, would you turn her away? You're a pastor. And I was like, ooh, that hurt. I was like, no, I'd pray for her. Well, why aren't you doing that now? We are to love our spouses as Christ loved the church. You are a church to your spouse. And every time you just decide to not forgive them their past, you're basically saying, you know what? This grace ain't for you. This gospel is not for you. Unforgiveness steals our ability to have empathy. It steals the power of compassion. The Bible says that when Jesus looked at the crowds, the sick, the diseased, the hurt, the demon possessed, he had compassion on them, and he saw them as sheep without a shepherd. Shepherd. So the next time someone does something that would. Generally your response would be unforgiveness or hate or like, I'm cutting them off. Are you seeing them as sheep without a shepherd? Because you may be the only Jesus that they ever see. And so I don't. I've never said these words before. This part is not in a book. This might be book two.
- [42:43]
A
We need a book. We keep it going.
- [42:45]
B
But I'm literally sitting here thinking of all of the people that just have unforgiveness in their lives. And it has come before. You ever said, I do. You had already said, I don't.
- [42:58]
A
Wow.
- [42:59]
B
And what we have is then two people that get together that are completely unhealed of their past, and they end up divorced, and then they're trying to look for somebody else. Look at the stats of people get divorced. Get. Get divorced again. Why? Because you will follow you everywhere. You Go every person you're with. And I have decided, and I am. I cannot walk in God's favor and grace and hold on to unforgiveness and hold on to resentment and hold on to pettiness. You can't walk in purpose and be petty.
- [43:38]
A
Amen.
- [43:38]
B
You can't.
- [43:39]
A
Amen.
- [43:40]
B
And I have to ask myself, when something makes me mad, where is that coming from? Our emotions are not to be reasoned away. I believe that they are intuitive indicators that the Holy Spirit allows us to feel that lets us know it's safe enough to heal. I had bars right there. I didn't mean to have bars right there. I just. That's a rap video.
- [44:06]
A
It's good stuff.
- [44:07]
B
But. But I know I'm talking a lot, but I just. This is new. This is the Holy Spirit. Right now, in this moment. Your spouse is probably not the issue. They didn't cheat on you because lady, ma'am, wife. That you're not attractive or you're not. No, no, no. It was in them to do way before you. And God has allowed it to happen. Now it's happening so that you can heal them, but if you just cut them off, it's gonna play out again. We gotta break strongholds.
- [44:43]
A
Yeah. Amen.
- [44:44]
B
You can't have a strong marriage without being willing to break a stronghold. Oh, I feel like preaching right now.
- [44:49]
A
That's so good. There's like 45 sermons.
- [44:52]
B
Oh, my gosh. I feel like preaching right now.
- [44:55]
A
That's so good. And I love that we keep going back to the life of Jesus, too. Because you see, even in the very last hours of Jesus's life on. On earth or before he, as he was dying on the cross, he has this moment as these people are mocking him, persecuting him, crucifying him, taking his life. And he looks up to heaven and says, father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. His last hours, he is demonstrating the power of forgiveness. And so clearly that is something that we need to be walking in. And when you think, like, no matter. Like, we think to ourselves, no, no, you don't get the situation. Like, they've. They've hurt me too badly. I'm like, there is no situation that's worse than what they did to our Jesus Christ.
- [45:42]
B
Come on.
- [45:42]
A
And in that moment, for him to take all that and say, forgive him, God, forgive him. I'm just like, man, that is. That's a. That's a message for someone. Because who. Who are we to. Not if we call ourselves Christ followers, if we call ourselves Christians, and we're following in the steps of Jesus. We have to follow in the steps of forgiveness. Yeah, we have to choose to forgive even when it's hard and even when they don't deserve it because we didn't deserve it. And so I love that you went there and that was really, really good. I, I would love to talk about like the, you mentioned this earlier when you get triggered by something in marriage, because it's one thing to forgive and have this like reconciliation moment. You know, you have this conversation and it feels like breakthrough. It's like, wow, this was such a good healing conversation between, you know, husband and wife. We've been through counseling. But then maybe something else happens again and you get re triggered or that memory plays back in your mind. I would love to go there because I feel like it's really easy to talk about the one time moments. A lot of people like to focus on. I went all in with Jesus and it's like. But then they neglect the day to day sanctification, the day to day dying to self, the day to day discipleship and commitment and that process. And so in the same way with forgiveness, it's not just a one time moment. It's that continual, you know, walking out in choice every day. And so what do you do when you have forgiven someone but then you get triggered again and that trauma is replayed in your mind and what do you do in that moment?
- [47:36]
B
I think in the context of marriage it's a little bit different than in the context of, of you know, family relationship or this whole idea of two equals one is like, well, what do you do? You've asked about one, you've asked about, but we're talking about wholeness. We're not talking about numeric. There's not a numeric two equals one. I'm talking about being whole. Two whole people coming together for one. An amazing marriage. Right. And I think one of the things in being whole is the word process. Like God is a fan of process. Right. He could have snapped his holy fingers and created the heavens and the earth in a day. He didn't do it. He did it in six. Why? Because he's a fan of the process. Yeah, he loved the process of the Israelites. Hundreds of thousand people being in captivity for hundreds of years because he's a fan of the process. A 40 day journey takes 40 years. Process. How many times Jesus should we forgive those who sin against us? 70 times 7? Process. Like the Bible just speaks of process. Jesus could have resurrected in a day. He didn't he took three. Process. I'm preaching on process right now.
- [48:59]
A
That's good.
- [49:00]
B
Process. We are all in process. No one ever arrives. I'm going to tick Irene off tomorrow, tonight, the next day. Process. And I think that if we just understood that it takes. The infraction might have happened one time, but the process to heal, it takes a long time. And if there are several infractions, there's probably going to be longer process and someone listening, like now. So what do I do? Sometimes you need space. Sometimes there's an agreed upon. We need space. Where we live, where we reside, that's a real thing. I just need time. Sometimes we go to separate areas of the house. What I have learned is this. Whenever Irene and I get into whatever, which we still argue, we still. We don't. I told God, tell him we don't really argue, but we still have resentment. We still. We just fight different. We fight with our faces now, like, you got attitude. We don't say nothing. But I just need time. And I have learned in my life that as soon as I feel something I need, I'm in a process. And everybody want to. We got to hurry up and deal with it. Don't go to sleep on what. No, I need process. I need time. But talk about it. Irene and I, in this book, two equals one. We give you communication tools to help you have a good fight. You and Grant gonna fight?
- [50:33]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [50:34]
B
So how do we have a good one? Here's a practical tool about process. We pick one day a week for 30 minutes to have hard conversations. Why? Because we have realized that our pettiness consumes our atmosphere. And so Now Fridays from 11 to 11:30, still at 25 years, that's when we have hard conversations and you have to write it down. So what you want to talk about, you submit it on Thursday. So when Irene ticks me off on Saturday or I'm upset at her on Sunday, or she gets upset at me on Monday, she has to write it down. And often when I write something down and I just had time and process, I realized that I'm 13 years old.
- [51:18]
A
You start marking it off. Never mind. Never mind.
- [51:21]
B
But I think if we just take time.
- [51:24]
A
Yeah.
- [51:26]
B
If we realize that forgiveness takes time, even though it's a decision, reconciliation takes time. And I want to say this. If you're in an abusive situation, if you're in a situation where you're being verbally abused, physically abused, that time of process, I do not believe that God wants you to be in a relationship where you're abused. But take time to pray. Take time to ask. Take time to be accountable. Take time to bring trusted people into your life. That helps you make the decision of what's next process.
- [52:03]
A
It's so good. Yeah, I'm one of those people that's like, no, I want to fix it right now. I'm this. You know, I can confess here, right? No, I'm one of those people. And I. I learned that that didn't serve our. Our marriage. There were moments where it was like, hey, that. That hurt me.
- [52:19]
B
Yeah.
- [52:19]
A
You know, we're about to step into a situation where maybe I just need something from you, like, and I'm sorry, and we can talk about more of it later. But I had to learn that as probably a year into our marriage. But that first year, it's real. I'm like, every time, you know, Grant, like, no, we're going to talk about it right now. And it would be like 2 in the morning. And, you know, he's like, maddie, let's just go to sleep. And I'm like, no. And I'm turning on the lights, and I'm like, we will discuss this. But it never resulted in what I was. It didn't lead me closer to what I actually wanted, which was unity and reconciliation. It actually led me further away from it because I'm removing compassion. I'm. I'm not seeking, you know, to really listen to, like, what he needs right now or. And I'm not even taking the time, like you said, to take it to God first, like, pray about it first. I'm just trying to be a point prover. I'm just trying to be right or just trying to feel better or something. And so I learned, yes, it's good to. To pause, to take a second, whether that's a day or a week or whatever, to. To take time to pray about it and then ask yourself, like, what? Where am I? Is there anything in me that I need to, like, Lord, search my heart, you know, remove any offensive way in me and lead me in the way of everlasting life, because I don't want to come at Grant over something that, you know, is happening in our marriage. If this is a me problem, like, asking myself, is this a me problem? Am I upset at something he said because I got an issue with it, like, because it's a Maddie problem. And I think we forget that. And. And I did for a long time. I dealt with conflict like that in all my relationships. You know, it was like, oh, if you said something that offended me no, you're gonna know about it right then. And then we're gonna talk about it, and we're gonna. And then we're gonna move forward.
- [54:05]
B
We're a lot of like, yeah, I'm.
- [54:06]
A
Like, I don't want. I don't want to shelve it. No, let's. Let's figure it out. But I've learned, like, man, it's. It's gotten me in. In some bad situations. It's hurt relationships, and it's just. It's immature, you know, And. And I've learned it actually is so helpful when I take a second and evaluate, you know, and then take it before God. Okay, this has been so good and so helpful. I'd love to end kind of the podcast talking about how to build a healthy marriage. Like, how to have. You know, we've talked about a. The real and hard stuff. And also, I want to speak to. Marriage is awesome, and it's such a gift. And it. It does take work, and it does take sacrifice, and it does take dying to self. And it is to make you holy and not just to make you happy. And it is a gift, and it's beautiful, and it's a picture of. Of you know, Jesus's love for the church and his pursuit of us. And so I would love to end just talking about what are three ways that we can build a healthy marriage?
- [55:09]
B
I think, wow, marriage is amazing. I love Irene more today than I ever have. And I think, what a great question, what a way to end, because I realized something 10 years ago, right? Like nine years ago, when we started to get healthy, is that Irene doesn't exist to serve me. I exist to serve her. And. And it is my greatest honor and my greatest pleasure. And I believe how God is proud of me, that well done.
- [55:45]
A
Yeah.
- [55:46]
B
Is how I'm loving my wife. You know, she's recently diagnosed with Lyme disease, and it's been really, really hard. It has been my honor to serve her through this sickness. And that's when I started to realize that God chose me to help heal her. Like, I'm in my purpose. Like a healthy marriage, you realize your purpose changes. Like, I feel so fulfilled today. Stuff doesn't fulfill me anymore. Things don't fulfill me anymore. To see her wake up fighting Lyme disease, and I ask her this question, what's better today? Getting her off of what is not feeling well.
- [56:29]
A
Yeah, that's.
- [56:29]
B
I'm telling you right now, that is a joy. You can see me. I'm just happy now. Like, it is my Honor to serve my wife. And I think that is just amazing because now it trickles off in every other part of my life. I exist to serve other people.
- [56:45]
A
Amen.
- [56:45]
B
And I think we live in a culture that I'm going to do me, serve me right.
- [56:49]
A
What can I get?
- [56:50]
B
But the benefit of marriage is that serving becomes joyful.
- [56:55]
A
Amen.
- [56:56]
B
I think that's number one. I think number two is this Incredible, incredible. I was telling my son this, you know, and we all have a past. And, you know, he's got a girlfriend. And, you know, and I was like, hey, you know, he needs to stay holy. And, you know, because, you know, in the past he's, you know. Yeah, he's 19. I mean, 22, like. And I said, I want you to think about this. Both of you have history, right? You could be the one that God chooses to give her something no other guy has given her purity. He's like, I never thought about it that way.
- [57:37]
A
It's beautiful.
- [57:39]
B
When I started thinking about marriage, God chose me. So, good thing about marriage is you are God's choice to help work all things together for your spouse's good. You are God's choice to be the well that the woman met Jesus at in John chapter four. You. You are the choice of being like. You get to serve. When I was hungry, you fed me. Matthew 25:31, 46. When I was thirsty, you gave me a drink. When I was naked, you clothed me. You. You get to be the one to represent Christ to the person that God has called you to be the blueprint of healing. You. You get to be the church to your bride. That's crazy to me.
- [58:27]
A
Yeah.
- [58:28]
B
And I think that one of the amazing benefits of marriage is just keeping it a buck, keeping it a hundred. You get to have fun sexually with your spouse. Non guilty.
- [58:41]
A
Yeah.
- [58:41]
B
No pleasure, no shame. There was no shame. And you guys get to redeem each other's past.
- [58:48]
A
Yeah. Amen.
- [58:49]
B
And one of the things that has helped us like, in this area is that, you know, I got introduced to pornography at 9 years old, and I realized that, and we preached this, that your introduction will be your appetite. My wife has helped heal me with new introduction.
- [59:05]
A
It's beautiful.
- [59:06]
B
You get to be that for your spouse. I think that's pretty cool.
- [59:09]
A
Yeah.
- [59:09]
B
Those are benefits of marriage.
- [59:10]
A
Come on. Come on. So good. So good. And marriage is so good. And especially. Or actually only when it is built on Jesus.
- [59:20]
B
Absolutely.
- [59:21]
A
And the truth of God's word. That's why stay true is called stay true. It's all built on truth. And so I hope more than anything you guys are hearing, just us continually go back to truth. More than feelings, more than opinions, more than anything, it's. It's truth. And so when marriage is good, we're going to truth. When marriage is hard, we're going to truth. And we're gonna keep going back to truth. And like you said, you never arrive. It's always a journey. Marriage is a journey. You're continually learning each other. You're continuing to sacrifice and serve each other, and you're continuing to love as Jesus calls us to love.
- [59:58]
B
Yeah.
- [59:58]
A
And so I am so grateful. This was so good. Like, truly so good. It blessed me, and I know it's blessed. Bless everyone who's listening and watching. And I'd honestly love to close and have you close this in prayer.
- [60:10]
B
Absolutely.
- [60:10]
A
And pray well, just however the Spirit leads you to pray. I'm not even going to tell you who to pray for, what to pray. Just however the. The Spirit leads you to pray.
- [60:19]
B
Well, thank you so much and thank you all for listening. And no matter where the state of your marriage is, if it's not good yet, God's not done yet. Father, I thank you. For those who are listening, I thank you. We actually thank you for our past. You said you work all things together, the good, the bad, and the ugly. So, God, the things that we call ugly, can you give us a picture and a vision of how you're going to use it for our good? God, can you help us come into the understanding that pain and the pain that we've experienced, it doesn't have to just serve the purpose of pain, but it can serve a greater purpose to help heal others. Can we be a well of forgiveness to our spouses? Can we redeem the purpose of marriage as the body of Christ? God, will you help us come into the understanding and the realization that there's no better gospel than a healthy marriage? The people that feel broken, those who feel hopeless, those who feel lost. Will you just give us a glimpse of hope today, God? We trade in heavy and hard for easy and light.
- [61:43]
A
Yeah.
- [61:45]
B
May the joy of our Heavenly Father be our strong strength, not perfection, not happiness, not. He listens to me or she listens to me. But may we laugh again because you love us and you don't give up on us. I love the scripture that I may know him in the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his suffering. We can only experience the power of resurrection when we become well acquainted with his suffering. So let us see the light at the end of the tunnel. Let us see the stone being rolled away. Let us see the dry bones come together so that we can go out and change the world through our healthy marriage. In Jesus name, amen.
- [62:38]
A
Amen. So good. So good. Amen. That was fun, man. I want to like run around.
- [62:45]
B
I'm fired up. We need to have church. We need to have church.
- [62:47]
A
I'm a month away from having a baby girl and nothing's going to stop me. I, I need to go run through a wall right now. That was so good. Thank you so much for coming on Stay True podcast. Like I said, guys, I'm going to link below how you can follow Jimmy and his wife and their book, their ministry so you can keep in touch with them. You've. You've blessed me. You've blessed Stay True and I'm just so thankful.
- [63:11]
B
Absolutely. Thank you.
- [63:12]
A
Well, as always guys, be sure to stay you and stay true. We.