Ben Higgins (1:44)

And in my mind I thought that was really smooth. I thought it was like a good

Madison Pruitt Trout (1:47)

way to buffer friend zone.

Jessica Higgins (1:50)

I was completely friend zoned.

Madison Pruitt Trout (1:59)

What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Stay True podcast. I'm your host, Madison Pruitt Trout and I have in the podcast Studio 2 Friends. We have Ben and Jess Higgins in the podcast studio. Welcome.

Ben Higgins (2:14)

Thanks for having us.

Jessica Higgins (2:15)

We're excited to be here.

Madison Pruitt Trout (2:16)

I'm so excited that you guys are here.

Ben Higgins (2:18)

Jess doesn't do a lot of these.

Jessica Higgins (2:20)

I'm super excited to be here.

Madison Pruitt Trout (2:23)

You're so cute. And listen, guys, she has her whole whole, like, skincare brand thing that she does, and I'm just sitting here like, your skin is glowing.

Jessica Higgins (2:31)

Thank you.

Madison Pruitt Trout (2:31)

I'm like, oh, help. I need to, like, I need to come check on your stuff anytime. But you guys do a lot of fun things. I remember one time I was in New York. I think I texted you, but I was in New York in this, like, coffee shop, and I see generous coffee, and I was like. And I think. I think we talked about this at some point. But anyways, you guys. You guys do a lot of fun things. You're co host of Almost Famous.

Jessica Higgins (2:52)

You.

Madison Pruitt Trout (2:52)

You have a new podcast that we can talk about now coming out.

Ben Higgins (2:58)

Yeah.

Madison Pruitt Trout (2:58)

What is that?

Ben Higgins (2:59)

It's the. I mean, it's something I'm so excited for.

Madison Pruitt Trout (3:02)

Yeah.

Ben Higgins (3:02)

I have prayed for, like, how to align this, like, past of my life when it comes to reality television with this platform that was, like, handed to me. And then the thing I'm most passionate about, which is talking about Jesus and hearing people's stories. And so I heart has given me the ability to invest even more into that. And so we are. We started a show called can you hear me? Interviewing people from all walks of life on their experiences with the divine and what it's done to change their life, what it's done to their careers, to their relationships. I am. I'm fired up about it. It's out now. You can go listen. But it's been really fun. We've got some great guests, and we will continue to get some great guests. And I'm. I'm really thankful to iHeart for giving me that opportunity.

Madison Pruitt Trout (3:52)

Yeah, that's so exciting. I know we were talking a lot right before this podcast and just catching up and just talking about, like, bridging that. The gap between, you know, the world and the church. And I think it's so easy to just be in, like, the church bubble. I think it's so easy to be in the world and not understand the church. And so I think it's a beautiful way to kind of, like, have these conversations with, like, different people in different walks of life and. Yeah. And to get to, like, talk about Jesus, but also, like, hear them and hear their perspective. And so I'm really excited. I'm excited to tune into that.

Ben Higgins (4:27)

It's. It's. What I've learned is there's obviously consistencies, but people. When God interacts and when, like, when You. We've had stories of people just getting on their hands and knees, crying out, like, I don't know your name, God, but I feel your presence. And Jesus showing up and just knowing how the spirit has moved in different people's lives and what it's done for them, I think is, like, so beautiful. In short, it was explained to me once that if we look at, like, the human experience, it's like a stained glass picture. Right. So there's all these different colors that make this picture out and all these different experiences and upbringings and where you grow up and all these things that happen. But then when the. When you put it all into one window, the picture makes sense. And I think that's what I'm seeing is it's amazing what God is doing in the world, and it's fun to hear people's experiences.

Madison Pruitt Trout (5:18)

Totally. I love it so much. And you also wrote a book, probably on a lot of things that you'll be talking about on the podcast called Alone in Plain Sight, which I just think the title and the subtitle is just so powerful because it feels like it's really is the cry of our generation of, like, we're so hyper connected. We are so seen in kind of, like, the social media space, but yet so many of us don't feel like anybody really knows us. And we feel lonely and we feel isolated. And so I'm really excited to talk a little bit more about that because you just came out with an expanded edition, so I'm excited to talk a little bit more about that. Excited for Jess to be on. Jess and I met. Did we meet at Bolt Farm? Was that where.

Jessica Higgins (5:59)

Yes, but we'd, like, been Internet buddies. We had. And then that was, like, our first.

Madison Pruitt Trout (6:04)

And then we met. We were like, we're twins. We're besties. We were separated.

Jessica Higgins (6:07)

Everyone said we needed to meet each other.

Madison Pruitt Trout (6:08)

Yeah. We just immediately connected. Yeah. And. And you have. It's called Higgy Skin.

Jessica Higgins (6:14)

Higgy Skin.

Madison Pruitt Trout (6:15)

Okay. Tell me about that.

Jessica Higgins (6:16)

It is my skincare clinic. I started it in 2021, and we're in Denver. And then I have a lot of virtual clients that started as an acne clinic, because I had acne my whole entire life and then went on Accutane, did all the things, and realized that there is a more holistic way to heal acne for the long haul. So really educated myself. I know you've dealt. We actually talked about that at bulk farms. It's been like, it's a big journey for a lot of people. And I. I've dealt with, like, eating disorders and body image my whole life. I'm not like a health coach or anything, but lots of times people's skin can be that thing for them that, like, you are stuck on and it's an addiction. And like, I see people addicted to picking their skin and, like, it's all they think about and all they see. So acne was where it started to help that. And then clients have stuck around, so we've expanded into anti aging pigmentation, all the things. And I currently have two employees. One of them is moving on in February, but hopefully we'll. We'll be able to find another one. So.

Madison Pruitt Trout (7:14)

Yeah, that is so amazing. And I bet you have, like, such an opportunity to just, like, share the gospel and like, encourage people, because it is so. It's so interesting. And I'm. I don't know, maybe you work with guys too, but especially for females. Like, I remember when I was really struggling bowed with acne. Like, I was so insecure, I didn't want to leave my house. Like, it was truly. And I'm like. And I know who I am in Christ, and I know that I'm loved and I know. Know that, you know, my looks don't define me, but I was so embarrassed by, like, the acne that was on my face, and I just. It was hard not to, like, look in the mirror and only see that. Yes. And I'm sure that even some people listening, like, feel that. And so before we even dive into the episode, I'd love for you to just, like, even speak to that really quick of, like, what would you say to the person who is in the middle of, like, a battle with something physical and maybe it's acne and, you know, they're looking at themselves in the mirror and they're just like, man, I don't like what I see and I don't know what to do about it.

Jessica Higgins (8:09)

I've dealt with it, like I said, in a lot of different ways between body image, between acne and I. I've been in and out of therapy and recovery, all of it. And now I have this opportunity to talk to people who. It is their skin that it's all they see. And first of all, like, we are our harshest critics. And I actually think having a daughter has helped me the most and given me personally the most freedom. So I can speak to what's helped me because with my clients, I can listen to them and I can encourage them, but I think it's a choice that you have to make. To see past it. And the biggest thing for me is looking at Winnie, our daughter, and being like, you are so perfect. Like, I see you as so perfect. And that is how I know that God sees me. He made me so perfect. And if Winnie came to me one day and was like, mom, like, I hate my nose or something like that, it would devastate me because I'm like, no, you were made perfectly. And so, like, when I'm looking at my body and I'm like, oh, God, I hate this about myself. And he's like, no, but I made you perfectly. Like, I think that Winnie has been the perfect example for me to find that freedom. And, like, that's what I, like, hope over my clients. Like, I've had girls come in crying and not leaving their house or, like, not wanting to go on dates. And then three years later, they're married, you know, and because of their skin, which was their thing that they couldn't get past. And I'm. I'm an instrument. Like, I just know the science. I don't know. I can't do all the miracles. But I, um. I do think that when. When you can see yourself and put yourself in that position of, like, no, I was made exactly how I'm supposed to be made. And even if you have acne, like, there's a reason and you just have to get past it. And maybe it's so that you can be more confident in, like, who you are internally. But then once you get past that outward thing, it just gives you this confidence. You can carry your head higher. Um, but I always. I. I do think that Winnie has changed how I can even speak to that, because I think it was hard to verbalize it for a long time, but now, like, having this. This little perfect thing, you know?

Madison Pruitt Trout (10:01)

She is perfect, though. I mean, come on. She's. She's pretty perfect.

Ben Higgins (10:05)

I think so.

Jessica Higgins (10:06)

Yeah.

Madison Pruitt Trout (10:06)

I also think so. She's pretty perfect, man. I think that's such a beautiful view. And I hope that that encourages. I know it encourages a lot of people because it is so true. It's like we were made in the image of God. And so when we have this, like, moment of. I hate this about myself, it's like a direct, like, hit to God in a way. And not in a way that if that's something you've said that it should cultivate shame that you've said that, because we've all had those moments. I've had those moments of, like, I don't want to leave my house. Because of the way that my face looks right now. But it is so true of like when the Lord looks at, as it talks about in the Old Testament, like the Lord looks at the heart. He doesn't look at outward appearance like man does. But we can get so consumed with that and it's all we see. And it can just like create a like self shame or self hatred. And, and it is just that reminder of like, I am fearfully and wonderfully made. I am made in the image of God. He sees me as, as his daughter. And I need to have that reminder of like, I can live from that place. Instead of like trying to like get other people's like approval or attention or whatever it may be. And simultaneously it's like, and then get the skin care. Like, you know, do the things, like I, I did the things I was like, okay, I'm gonna like find an esthetician that's gonna like help me with my skin while also like speaking scripture over myself and reminding myself of like, does God say about me?

Jessica Higgins (11:26)

Well, and I have people come in and they're like, I want your skin. And I'm like, well you can't have my skin cuz we're different. But I can get your skin to a place that's like the best for your skin. And I think that that's the other thing is like, if all of us had like the exact same bodies, the exact same face, the exact same skin, like, how boring is that? You know, like if you and I looked exactly the same, what's the point? I don't, I don't know. It just. I always love to remind people that

Madison Pruitt Trout (11:50)

like, yeah, we're all different totally from

Ben Higgins (11:53)

a like and from a bystander who listens to a lot of these when she says she knows the science.

Madison Pruitt Trout (11:59)

It's girl knows the science, it's wacky.

Ben Higgins (12:02)

There's, there's words that get said multiple times in our household that I, I can't pronounce. But I think the thing I've learned from just like how you care for your clients too is like there's environmental factors that allow you to care for your clients in a way that gets them to be like their best self. And a lot of times like internal inflammation or it's a reaction to a food, these are things that are just like so much. These are just things we deal with as humans that make us the best version of ourselves, which I think is completely of God and that God is looking at and being, hey, like, you're inflamed inside, right? That's like, nobody feels their best when their stomach is churning and their face is breaking.

Madison Pruitt Trout (12:41)

See, that's a really good point. We just had Dr. Josh Axe on. On the podcast. I don't know if you know who that is. He's. He's amazing. Nutritionist, like, health. He's just amazing. But we talked a lot about, like, diet and how important that is, because that has such an impact on your mental state, on your physical state, on your appearance. And I think that was a big part of. Even my acne journey was, like, a lot of what I was eating. And so it is like, yes, I'm made in the image of God and having that truth as the foundation, but it's also like, okay, but I'm also like, the temple. Like, I'm God's temple. So, like, let me take care of my body in a way that's pleasing to God, not in a way that I idolize it, but in a way that. That's truly pleasing. Of, like, what am I feeding myself? You know, what am I? Like, am I taking care of my body? Am I. Am I getting the exercise? Am I. You know? And those kinds of things I do think is. I'm glad you pointed to that, because I do think that that is such a. It's not just like, yeah, I'm made in God's image, so I'm just gonna keep, like, feeding myself trash and, like, hope my skin gets better or hope that this thing gets better. It's like, no, no. Like, know the truth of what God's word says about you. But also, like, you have a responsibility of, like, getting, like, go find an esthetician. Like, have a healthy diet. Like, take care of your body and take care of yourself. So, anyways, that's not necessarily what we're all talking about today, but I thought that was a really good. I really.

Jessica Higgins (13:52)

And I'm happy to talk. I mean, it's my favorite thing to talk about. I'm so lucky. It's my job.

Madison Pruitt Trout (13:57)

It's a huge thing. I have so many people. I remember one time. It's so funny, you know, like, Instagram engagements, like, all over the. It's wacky. But, like, I remember this one time I posted about my. My acne journey, and it was this picture of my face, like, breaking out. It was, like, one of the worst, one of the lowest moments for me of, like, my skin journey. And I truly felt so embarrassed by this picture, but I was like, I'm gonna post this in hopes that it, like, helps Other people of like, hey, you see sometimes a lot of like people online that everything seems perfect, everything seems great, but they have these like internal battles or struggles offline that they're not always sharing. So I'm just gonna share with you, like this moment for me, that was a really hard moment. And I got, I mean, the views on that photo. I'm like, you guys, you're telling me like 600,000 people just like saw the worst photo of me in the whole entire world. Like, but it helps. So many people were dming me. Like, I struggle with this and I've. And I've like never done. I don't know what to do. Like, I hate the way that I look. So it's a very, I would say, common thing. And like you said, it comes in different forms. Whether it's like the way your body looks, whether it's the way your skin looks, whether it's your hair. And I've also had different forms of that too, like from a long time. For me it was skin and hair. And so those have kind of been like the two things for me, but it's different for everybody. Postpartum's been a whole nother and we can get into that in a second because that's a whole other thing because I, I want. Cause I want to like get into this, this, this conversation of where I want to take it today on this idea of like loneliness and isolation and being in a hyper connected world today and even how that translates into marriage and into like motherhood and postpartum and all of those things. But first I just want to hear, like, how did you guys meet and what is Yalls love story? And then also, what's your faith journey? Because I just want to like invite people in if maybe they don't know. Kind of like yalls whole story individually and together. Hey friends, it's Maddie. If you've read my new book, Dare to be True, I would love to hear what you think. Your reviews mean so much to me. They help more people discover the message and the heart behind this book.

Jessica Higgins (15:58)

So.

Madison Pruitt Trout (15:59)

So if this book has encouraged you, challenged you, or reminded you to live with bold faith and honesty, would you just take a minute to leave a review? It truly makes such a difference. And if you haven't gotten my new book yet, Dare to be True, you can go and find it anywhere books are sold. Thank you so much for being a part of this journey and for daring to be true right alongside me. Stay True Merch drop. We got a new Stay True Merch collection, you guys. And this is my favorite collection yet. I am wearing the jersey from the Stay True merch collection. And you guys, it is so amazing. It says Stay True on the front, Stay Free on the back. It's got John 8:32. It is the coolest jersey you've ever seen. But we have sweatshirts, we got T shirts. This is seriously my favorite collection yet. This is the perfect Christmas gift, birthday gift, New Year gift to yourself. You guys, you need to check out this new collection. I'm so excited about it. And you can go to Stay True podcast dot com. We'll also include the link to the exact merch landing page in the show notes. You guys gotta go and check it out. Let me know what you think. If you rep it, tag us. We wanna see it. Go and check it out, you guys.

Ben Higgins (17:07)

Do you wanna share how we met?

Jessica Higgins (17:08)

No, I want you too.

Ben Higgins (17:10)

Oh, good.

Madison Pruitt Trout (17:10)

She's like, please.

Jessica Higgins (17:11)

I love hearing you.

Ben Higgins (17:14)

So I was in. The short and kind of expedited timeline is. I was in Las Vegas for iHeartFest with a bunch of people that were. This was fairly soon after my breakup from the show. And I wasn't dating. I've never been a guy that likes to stay up late. I'd never have liked, like, going out. I had. I was living in Denver at the time, and I really didn't have, like, a great friend group because I had moved there and went on the show and then kind of, like disappeared for two years.

Madison Pruitt Trout (17:42)

So we're talking about the Bachelor. You were on season 20.

Ben Higgins (17:44)

I was on season 20. The Bachelor.

Madison Pruitt Trout (17:46)

Crazy.

Ben Higgins (17:48)

And the guys at the table were like, you gotta start messaging people on Instagram. That's how you're meet a girl. And I was like, that feels so weird and creepy and, like, awkward, but I had it in the back of my head. And I was like, maybe this is how you meet somebody today, Right? This. I wanted to get married and I wanted to start a family, but I'd never really done that. And a couple months later, I came to Nashville for a fundraiser for an organization I'm a part of. And I was staying downtown at the Hilton Hotel, right next to Bridgestone Arena. And by God's goodness, there is a hockey team checking in to the hotel. A professional hockey team.

Jessica Higgins (18:24)

And I was on that team.

Madison Pruitt Trout (18:25)

Yeah, that's the moral of the story. Jess is a boss at hockey.

Ben Higgins (18:31)

And I was. I went up to my room, I had the night free, and I was just, like, on social media. And I don't even know if it still exists. But there was a way back in the day, you could click on the location that you were at and it would show the pictures that had been posted from that location. And I was like, I know one of these people taking a picture with this hockey team has posted a picture of them. I just wonder what hockey team it is. I was just curious. So I clicked on my location at the Hilton and Bridgestone arenas. Pictures popped up and she was on a date. But I saw her picture and I read her bio and her bio had nothing. It was just like a short. It was either a Bible verse or it was something about Jesus. And I was like, goodness, she's good looking and she loves Jesus. And so this is what I did. I screenshotted her picture and totally forgot about it. But I was like, now I need

Madison Pruitt Trout (19:19)

to see the picture.

Jessica Higgins (19:19)

I'll show it to you.

Ben Higgins (19:20)

Yeah. And so it was Thanksgiving of that year. So it was a few months later and my phone had ran out of storage and I was deleting old pictures and I came across her picture and I had not dated. I was still single. And I just sent her a message and it said something like, I don't know if you're single. I don't know if you've ever been to Denver, but if you're not single and you don't want to come to Denver, take this as a compliment. But if you are single and interested in Denver, I'd love to take you out sometime.

Jessica Higgins (19:49)

And it was that confusing too.

Madison Pruitt Trout (19:52)

She's like, trying to interpret like, okay, so is he interested in me?

Ben Higgins (19:57)

And so we just like, she messaged back and we messaged each other for a bit and then we did. It was actually, I think I remember one of the. One of the first, like, calls we had was right when I was leaving church and I had a lot of, like, questions about the service. And I think we had planned to have our first phone call that day. And so I called her and I was like, what do you think about this? And we had this conversation about this service that.

Jessica Higgins (20:21)

You're remembering it wrong.

Ben Higgins (20:22)

Okay. That's why I wanted you to tell it.

Jessica Higgins (20:24)

Well, you remember this? I like you doing the beginning part,

Madison Pruitt Trout (20:27)

but yeah, she's like, I like you

Jessica Higgins (20:29)

saying that you saw me, but the. You were texting me about your church service. And it was about, like, giving and, like, generosity. And I was selling postage meters at the time. That was my job. And if you don't know what postage meters are, that tells you how hard my job was. Because no one had them. I would go to accounts, and they would ask me to take them away their postage meters. And I was, like, trying to upgrade them. And so I had no money. I was making, like, negative dollars. And Ben was, like, asking me if it was harder to give with time or money. And I was like, well, I'm gonna be a jerk when I tell him money. And so I voice memo'd him. And I was like, listen, this is the situation I'm in. It's really hard for me to give with money right now because I don't have any. And then he called me after that voice memo, but I was actually on a run, so I ignored his call. And then I called you back. And then when we hung up, Ben was like, well, I think I made a really good friend out of this, and hung up. And I was like, great. I'm never hearing from him again.

Ben Higgins (21:29)

And in my mind, I thought that was really smooth. I thought it was, like, a good way to buffer. I thought it was a good way to buffer.

Madison Pruitt Trout (21:35)

Friend zone.

Jessica Higgins (21:36)

I was completely friend zoned.

Libsyn Ads Narrator (21:38)

Yeah.

Ben Higgins (21:38)

And then a few weeks later, she came to Denver. I opened my first restaurant, and she came for opening night, and we spent the day. We went and had our first date at this, like, little cool restaurant. And on that date, flashback a little bit, I had asked my dad. My dad and mom have this, like, incredible marriage, and they're the best of friends, and they bicker and they argue and they love hard. And I was like, goodness, like, this is just like, I don't see this in the world today. And. And I. I love what you guys have. And I remember my dad and I were working on my house out in Denver, and I had asked him, dad, how do you know when you meet the one? My dad is a. Is. Is a funny guy to talk to about, like, deep stuff. It's not like, something we. We do often. And I was like, okay, I want to ask my dad this. I want to give him the opportunity to speak into this. And he said, ben, when you know, you know, it's like, that's terrible. Like, that's all you got. And he's like, when, you know, you know, go back to this first date, and I'm sitting across from her at lunch, and I remember going, like, this is either going to be the best thing that ever happened to me or the hardest. And I mean, from that moment on, I. I think we both knew, like, I think we're gonna get married. And my dad. I say that to say my dad was right. Like, when you know, you know,

Madison Pruitt Trout (22:57)

it

Ben Higgins (22:57)

was just this, like, flow of conversation on, like, what we're passionate about and where our faith journey is and where we see our lives going and. And we were in such different places back then than we are today. But I looked across the table, and for whatever reason, I was like, this is. This is it.

Madison Pruitt Trout (23:16)

That's literally how it was with Grande.

Jessica Higgins (23:18)

Isn't it crazy?

Madison Pruitt Trout (23:19)

Yeah. First date, I called my mom after, and I was like, I'm going to marry that man. Yeah, I just knew that's so crazy. And did you. So you were feeling the same way?

Jessica Higgins (23:26)

Yeah, I was. I'm a big journaler. Like, I process by writing, even, like, still to this day. And I got on the plane after that visit and, like, I still have the journal entry of, like, I think I just met my husband. You do? You just know. And. And we. I was like, a big dater. My. I was a famous first date. They called me the one date wonder because I would go on one date,

Ben Higgins (23:48)

and then because she had no money, she had to get some.

Madison Pruitt Trout (23:51)

Yeah, I just needed a free meal tonight.

Jessica Higgins (23:53)

Yeah, okay, I'll go on a date. But I do think that through going on a lot of dates, I learned a lot about what I liked and what I didn't like. Like, I never. I've never had a big heartbreak. I've never, like, had a crazy breakup. I've never had my.

Madison Pruitt Trout (24:06)

Wow, what a blessing.

Jessica Higgins (24:07)

It is a blessing.

Ben Higgins (24:08)

I think it's been really hard in our marriage.

Jessica Higgins (24:10)

It's been hard in our marriage because, like, he's the one that's loved me the most, but also one that's hurt me the most because I've never. I've never really had, like, even a fight with a friend. Like, I'm just. I've never had that.

Madison Pruitt Trout (24:22)

So confrontation. Not your thing?

Jessica Higgins (24:23)

Not my thing.

Ben Higgins (24:25)

Two years of couples therapy.

Jessica Higgins (24:27)

Yeah.

Ben Higgins (24:27)

It's now her thing.

Jessica Higgins (24:28)

Now. Now it's fine.

Ben Higgins (24:29)

Now she's feisty.

Jessica Higgins (24:30)

But I still. Well, I'm still learning how to do it with, like, grace and humility because I can be, like, really defensive and snippy. And so I'm learning to, like, sit back and listen. But a lot of it is just, like, I've never. I've literally never had that before.

Madison Pruitt Trout (24:43)

Yeah.

Jessica Higgins (24:44)

And so when. When I met Ben, it was like, oh, he has all the things that I have loved and guys I've been on dates with before, but, like, they've all been missing something. And he, like, has. I don't know. I think that you have challenged you. Even when we first started dating, you've challenged me the most of anyone I've ever dated. And I needed that, like, as someone that's gonna, like, make me better.

Madison Pruitt Trout (25:07)

She's like, all those first dates, you know, couple years in marriage.

Ben Higgins (25:10)

For me, yeah, it's a wild. I mean, you know, just. I mean, I think most people that are. Have gotten married and are in love feel this way. But, like, I look back and think about all the things that had to go right, you know, for this totally marriage to exist. And it's the most beautiful thing that's ever happened to me. But it's wild to sit here today and look across here and see my wife and be like, yeah, I. I flash back on those, those moments and those times. And for somebody who never got their heartbroken, went on a lot of first dates, and then somebody like me, public, who went on tv, dated and dated. Yeah, we're coming from two very different places.

Madison Pruitt Trout (25:51)

Honestly, that's great. And I really. Yeah. Very similar to Grand.

Ben Higgins (25:54)

I.

Madison Pruitt Trout (25:54)

Was it hard for you that he had a public relationship experience that, like, people knew about his. That, like, you were like, okay, I don't have necessarily this relationship experience in my past. And he has a relationship in his past that's public.

Jessica Higgins (26:09)

Yes. Was that hard in the beginning? It was really hard because I. I had never watched the Bachelor. I was very unfamiliar with all of it, and I didn't understand, like, the fan base piece of it either. Like, what would happen in my life when I started dating him, because I met him two years after he'd been the Bachelor. Three, I think three years after he'd been so. But he had been broken. They'd broken up. And so he was like this single guy from the show that people loved. And so when I started dating him, there was a lot of like, oh, the ex had X, Y and Z that you don't have. You know, I was compared a lot, which I wasn't expecting, and that was a little bit hard. And then, like, if I saw clips of the show, it, like, hurt. My, like, stomach would churn because I can't imagine, you know, that the person you've dated has probably had an ex or, like, been on a date with him in the past. But you've never watched those dates. Like, you're not supposed to watch.

Ben Higgins (27:05)

I remember the first time we. We were getting more and more serious. We were watching, like a show on ABC and a commercial popped up and it was like flashbacks of the Bachelor there. I think it was during COVID They were, like, reminiscing on old seasons, and it was like, next is Ben's season. And it was like a minute long of that, of my season. And I remember us both just being like. It was like one of those, like,

Madison Pruitt Trout (27:32)

do we turn it off? Do we look away? Should we talk about it?

Ben Higgins (27:35)

And it hurts. It's just not healthy. I think, especially at the beginning, before there was the, like, commitment and the confidence, and it was still like, what. Where is this going? Like, I think we're going to get married, but I don't. We haven't made that commitment to each other yet, and we haven't talked about that. I think it was really hard for both, like, for her especially to have to consume all this. She's never watched it.

Libsyn Ads Narrator (27:55)

Yeah.

Madison Pruitt Trout (27:55)

That is crazy. Like, how. How has, like, relationship from dating to marriage been, like, under the spotlight? Like, how do you guys just, like, process that? Boundaries. Yeah, just like. I mean, and especially for you, like, you just, like, kind of, like, stepped into it. I mean, Grant and I have processed through this a lot because it's a very similar, you know, situation in that way. So I'm just curious from Yalls perspective and point of view how that's been.

Ben Higgins (28:21)

I mean, honestly, for me, at times, it was. I don't want to make light of it. There was also moments of pure comedy, and, like, you know, we. We made the commitment to not have sex until we got married. It was something that we had talked about in private, we had decided on as a couple, and it had kept it that way. And I really don't know how the public found out about this. I think somebody maybe, like, in passing during a show had said, like, what's your physical relationship like? And we're like, actually, like, it's not what you think it might be. And I think that's probably what we said. Well, of course, the headlines picked us up that we're like, we're not having sex. And this is where the comedy comes in for us. It's like, for me, I guess I was like, whatever. This is just another headline, another weird thing for her. She's still on postage meters. Like, the world has just been introduced to her. And she's like, oh, my goodness. Like, it's shocking.

Jessica Higgins (29:16)

And my boss sees it, and then

Ben Higgins (29:17)

her dad brings it home on his phone when we're visiting, when I'm visiting, and he's like, my COO showed me this today, and he holds up his screenshot, and I'm like, this is the. This should never happen. Like, we should not be having these conversations with my future in laws.

Madison Pruitt Trout (29:32)

Yeah, that's crazy.

Ben Higgins (29:34)

And so it was. There was comedy to it.

Jessica Higgins (29:36)

Yeah.

Ben Higgins (29:37)

And I also think for. For us, for me, it was such a relief. I didn't love the spotlight. Like, I. I wasn't good at it. I didn't like the, like, stay relevant thing. I didn't love going out to LA to these things. It just wasn't made for me. And there was this, like, relief to find somebody who was not dating me to do any of that. In fact, she would have rather done none of it. She would have rather. My life never been in the, you know, public eye. And so I think for me, it was a relief to navigate it and just to kind of stay quiet, honestly.

Madison Pruitt Trout (30:07)

Yeah.

Jessica Higgins (30:09)

Yeah, it definitely was, like, not where I thought my life would go by any means. I intentionally hadn't been on reality tv, you know what I mean? Like, it just wasn't what I thought was gonna happen for me. But it's been interesting to navigate and I think the, like, responsibility piece of it has been something that, like, still is pretty heavy on me of, like, what do we do with this? Like, I don't think that there's. I don't think any of it's by accident. There's not an accident that you were on the Bachelor. There's not an accident that I'm the one that's married to you. Like, all of that is on purpose. So, like, what do we do with it? And I think that's a question I ask myself often. But it's fun and funny, and I think a lot of it, you do just kind of have to giggle at

Madison Pruitt Trout (30:48)

sometimes, like, and just have an unoffendable spirit. You're just like, you know what? Like, there's gonna be certain things with my life that because I'm a follower of Jesus, like, the world's not gonna understand. But it's also just like. Yeah. I mean, similar to what you're, like, wanting to do with your new show. It's like, let's. Let's talk about it. Like, let's. I want to understand your perspective. I want to offer you my perspective. And I love that, like, people really do love to talk about saving yourself for marriage. I mean, that was a huge part of my little bachelor story and a big thing that everybody wanted to talk about and pick up on. It's like, sure. Like, you know, that's just like a decision that I. That I've made for a long time. And it's like, you want to go there. We go there. Like, whatever.

Ben Higgins (31:31)

Yeah. There's also the moments like, I don't want to talk about with my in laws.

Madison Pruitt Trout (31:36)

Right.

Jessica Higgins (31:36)

Yeah.

Ben Higgins (31:37)

I prefer not any. I would prefer this as a conversation Jess and I had and the public wouldn't know. But I have never. And I think this is one of the reasons my, like, relationship, at least at the beginning, after the show was so weird with the church was. I've never been remorseful about my decision to go on the show. I don't know if she responds to my message on social media without the blue check mark.

Jessica Higgins (32:00)

My mom knew who he was.

Ben Higgins (32:01)

My mom had watched and her mom gave, said, you should talk to that guy. Like, there's so many good things that has happened from it. It's not a part of my life. I bet we, we talk like, I bet we talked about the show in our relationship. This is honestly five times. Like, this is not a. We don't talk about the Bachelor. We don't talk about, like, the ins and outs of it all. It's not. It's been so far removed. And it was with her because she loved me. She really probably could have cared less that I was on this experience.

Jessica Higgins (32:31)

But you're right. I probably wouldn't have met you without,

Ben Higgins (32:32)

like, there's so many good things that have come from it.

Madison Pruitt Trout (32:34)

That's exactly how. Yeah. Like, that's exactly how we feel.

Jessica Higgins (32:37)

Yeah.

Madison Pruitt Trout (32:38)

And what about, like, you. You alluded to, like, you guys talked right after, like on the phone or something right after you came out of church. Has faith, like, always been a big part of, like, yalls journey? And what has, like, your journey with Jesus been like, and how did that, like, has that changed since coming off the Bachelor? Like, in coming off the Bachelor, like, in your relationship with Jesus, your relationship even with the church, like, has that changed in any way?

Ben Higgins (33:08)

Goodness. Yes. Yeah. Has it always been a yeah? My answer. My answer to that is yes. I think when you, when you meet Jesus, I think it's impossible for not to be the cornerstone, the foundation, the. You can. The lens at which everything else flows. And that has been the case in my life because of God moving and me accepting his grace and forgiveness years ago. And with Jessica, I think it was a beautiful thing. It was one of the first times I think I ever had this, maybe the only time that I had somebody that I loved, that I was dating, that I could call and be like, hey, I'm struggling, or I have questions, or God's doing this and I'm really excited. Like, it was just, it was always, it was, it's always been the thing most prevalent to us. And so yes, the answer to that is yeah, I think for me I've struggled for how many years has it been since the show? Because I went on as a 25 year old, deeply involved in my local church, always been, I've kind of gone on the more Christian like social justice like side, like a lot of like non profit work, a lot of like care for like the poor just based on some upbringing and me being exposed to at an early age. It's been a big focus of mine way before the show. And then I get on the show and I'm handed this platform for no reason other than the fact that I dated a bunch of people on tv and it's like my buddy called me one. I called my buddy one day and I was like, I don't know what to do with this. And he's like, well one, humans were never made to be famous. There's only one name made to be famous. You've been handed a platform. Use it to enhance the life you already had, not change your life completely. And, and then he, he closed and said, ben, this is never meant to be about you. And so I was super excited. Honestly, coming off the show, I was like, I have all this, these people that are paying attention now that like, what projects can we work on, what things can I do with this? And honestly, the church was very critical and as a 26 year old it beat me down. In fact, made me stop attending church. Didn't change my relationship with Jesus. I stopped attending church for a long time and I always struggled with that. Why this thing that feels. I prayed before I went on the Bachelor, like, God, close the door if this is not meant for me. And all doors swung open and I went on and it's like, I feel so good about this decision. I feel like you were such, so much behind this decision. Yet why is my community of believers so critical and harsh and dismissive of my life now? I don't need to be on their stage. I just want to be invited in. And I've really struggled this still to this day. And then a really wise voice just recently, a few months ago told me the reason that the church maybe hasn't like invited you back in is because you've never been remorseful for this decision. You, they, they look at this and say this is weird and you're kind of proud of it or you're excited about talking about it, or you're wanting to Share it. So I still sit in a weird place. I think today I have great friends of faith and a great community of faith and great leaders in our life, but I've never felt like. It's always. It's still like a wound. I think today for me.

Madison Pruitt Trout (36:35)

Yeah, you know, I have a very similar. And I've talked about it a lot on. On my podcast, but very similar. I was such a church girl. Like, I'm talking. Spent all of my time at the church, got a Bible degree. Like, just wanted to spend my life talking about the church. My first job out of college was in foster care and adoption. So very similar. My, My. I got a degree at Auburn, also in communications and minor in nonprofit. So, like, very big heart to just, like, I just want to, like, love Jesus, tell people about the gospel, and, like, adopt a bunch of babies. Like, that was literally, like, my mind. And had a friend apply me for the show and same thing like, okay, this is crazy. This doesn't make sense. I don't even watch. So I've never even seen the show like, this. This is wild. Lord, if this is not of you, like, close the door takeaway piece. I don't want to do it if it's not of you, because, like, that sounds terrifying. And it door kept swinging open. Felt so much peace. Said yes, went on it. And it's crazy. Yeah, it's like, I. I really was hopeful that the church would be wise counsel and support and encouragement, and I felt a lot of backlash and judgment, and that was a really hard season for me. And I carried that for, like, a couple years. It really impacted, like, my ability to be plugged into the local church. It was easier for me to show up and speak at a church than go and attend a church and be known by the church. And that was a struggle for me for a long time. I had a lot of, like, bitterness and hurt toward the church. I just remember, like, when I met Grant, he loved the church, was very plugged into his church, and was challenging me. Like, you got to get plugged back into the church. Like, you need to find your local community. And I was like, no, you don't understand. Like, the church judges me. And I remember telling God a while ago, because I had dated a guy, you know, for years that was a pastor, and I said, okay, I will marry whoever you call me to, but I will not marry a pastor, Lord. And. And Grant and I are about to get engaged. And he had never, ever, ever thought about being a pastor. And he's literally, like, I feel led by the spirit to like, be a young adult pastor in Waco, Texas, under Jonathan P. And I'm like, you've got

Jessica Higgins (38:34)

to be kidding me.

Madison Pruitt Trout (38:35)

Like, I literally, like, I will do anything. I will not do that. And. And then the Holy Spirit, you know, gave me so much grace and, and peace, I think, to just be like, okay, yeah, like this. This actually does feel right. And you know, and Grant was like, hey, if this is not like, what you see for you, like, I will never be like, we are gonna go to Waco. I'm gonna be a pastor. Like, if you don't feel a piece about this, like, I just trust that, then maybe this isn't what I'm supposed to do. Like, I feel like the Lord will align our hearts in this. And. And he did. And the Lord, like, laid it on my heart. And it's crazy because in that journey, I think of living in Waco and getting plugs back into the local church, I realized, like, in James 5, it talks about like, confess your sins to one another and pray for each other so that you may be healed. And in my experience, I've seen that the church has hurt me, but the church has also healed me. And in those moments of inviting community and gathering people together and talking about my bachelor experience, weeping, like, I'm talking like, uncontrollably crying, where I'm like, I didn't even know I could cry like this. Like, I'm like. And then she said this, and then I'm like, I can't even get it out. And they're probably just like, what is happening? And clearly there's like, trauma, there's hurt, there's, you know, and. And it was like through that, that, like in reading scripture and then praying over me that I feel like I started like, really getting healed and, and started really healing. And I think I'm still kind of on that journey as well. I think I've come really, really far. But it is. It is a crazy concept. And I. And you know, I would be curious, like, what is your response when. Cuz I get this question all the time of like, why would a Christian ever go on the Bachelor? Like, what. What do you even say to that? Because that was. I think one of the biggest things people were asking me is just like, oh, if you like, you know, say you like, really loved Jesus, then like, why would you even go on a show like that? Like, how do. Do people ask you that? And. And if so, how do you respond?

Ben Higgins (40:30)

Well, you know, I think a little bit of this is still a struggle. Like, personally, I say it's a wound, not because I feel like I'm not also to blame for this. Like, I don't want to take a victim mentality here and be like, goodness, the church has been so bad to me. Me, it hasn't. I just haven't felt. I. I at the time was so confused by that question you just asked me, why did I do this? That my response was, I don't know. I prayed about it. Yeah. And every door flew open. My family, my friends, my. My work all said, go do it. And so I said yes. I don't know why. I don't. I didn't know what the purpose of this is. I don't know what, like, the bigger meaning is. I hope that shows up at some point and now I can see more of what the bigger meaning is. And so now when somebody can ask that, I was like, well, I met my wife. You know, I'm able to talk about Jesus to more people than I was before. We've raised some incredible funds for some organizations that I really care about. I've been able to write a book about loneliness that, you know, people have read. And I hope at least one person is like, hey, I'm. I feel less alone. I want to take one more step from this. There wasn't this. I'll be honest, there wasn't this grand plan of, hey, I'm going to go on the show and now be able to, like, yeah, do. Be a pastor.

Madison Pruitt Trout (41:44)

Yeah. Like, this is the end goal. This is what. What I'm gonna go to and show.

Ben Higgins (41:47)

I was 25 years old. I was just. And I think one of the messages I would say would be, I get excited. Maybe this is something that Jess can check me on in the car on the way home. I get excited about stepping into dangerous places. Like, I don't want to say no to experiences that are dark or heavy or that have. That are defined by, like, hey, this is not a show a Christian should go on. No, I get excited about that because I know that I have a complete trust in my. My relationship with God to know that God is not walk. Is going to walk beside me in that. That God is not leaving me. And so if I can step into the, like, grimiest of situations as a believer, I don't know what God's going to do in those moments.

Jessica Higgins (42:37)

Yeah.

Ben Higgins (42:37)

And I want to be a part of those. I want to sit at the tables that are not comfortable. I want to get uncomfortable. I want to get messy in this world. And maybe the reason is the bachelor felt so messy that I was like, this is an opportunity, and I don't know what God is going to do with me and through me in this moment. I don't know, you know, God's big plan for this. But goodness, today I sit here and I'm like, I'm glad I did.

Madison Pruitt Trout (43:03)

Right?

Ben Higgins (43:04)

I'm. I'm so thankful I did.

Madison Pruitt Trout (43:05)

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so true. It's like, we can't. Like, the Lord determines our steps. Like, we're just called to, like, be faithful with what's right in front of us. And it's like that opportunity was presented. You had peace. Your wise counsel spoke into it and affirmed that peace. And it's like. And then you just had no idea what God was going to do with it. And that's. I was 23 years old. I'm like, bro, I just got out of college. Like, my brain's still forming. Like, I'm like, I don't know. But I. I really prayed. Like, it wasn't. And I'm sure same for you. Like, it wasn't this crazy, emotional decision. The bachelor called, and you're like, yeah, I'll go on. It's like, no, you spent a long time processing and praying and bringing people into it. And then, like. And you're like, and we'll see what happens. And it's cool that. That the Lord has, like, just done so much through it and that you guys have been able to be. And do people go on it for, like, self promotion and to, like, glorify themselves and to, like, build their own life.

Jessica Higgins (44:00)

Sure.

Madison Pruitt Trout (44:00)

But I. What I see in you guys that I think is so beautiful is, like, you literally started a coffee brand that. That does the opposite of that. Like, you are being generous. Like, you are giving away money and time and resources. Like, you're writing books to help people, to point people to Jesus. And so, like, you're starting a skincare brand to, like, encourage people that you're made in them a job of God. But also, like, here's how I can help you right here and right now. And you're listening. And it's just like, that is what I think is so beautiful of just, like, being faithful with what's right in front of you and stewarding it all for God's glory. It's like, you didn't know what was going to come out of that experience. But it's like, okay, now I have a platform, so how can I steward this for God's Glory. Like, you weren't chasing that, but it's like, well, now I have it. So, like, now I'm just going to give it back to God and be like, what do you want with this? I want to dive into you. You brought up the book alone in plain sight. I want to talk about that. What led you to write the book? And like, what would you say is your biggest heart for this generation that is so connected online but feels so disconnected in real life and they don't know how to. A lot of them, a lot of people, I've even fallen into this, how to have deep connection and, like, authentic connection with one another. There's now just like such an increase, I think, in like, social anxiety and, you know, in all kinds of different things. And so what would you say is like, the lead cause of that? What's your encouragement for that? And then also. Yeah, like, just why you wrote the book in the first place.

Ben Higgins (45:36)

Yeah. I mean, I think you pointed to something that right away I was like, that's beautiful. You mentioned that you posted your acne on your social media and the response was crazy, right? 600,000 people or whatever. Solid. That's what I'm talking about. I think I've seen this fleeting and really 15 minutes of fame from an experience and saw my friends from that experience or people I've met along the way and them in private struggle with this idea of, I've got to keep up, I've got to stay relevant. I've gotta share this and share this. And I saw it being exhausting and I saw it being very isolating also in my own personal life, since I was a kid, I've struggled with this feeling of being the outsider. I explain it like this. I think the clearest picture I've ever heard, I think it came from a therapist, was I feel like the kid looking through the window at the party he wasn't inviting to and wishing I was inside. That's been a common insecurity. It's been a common thought. If I'm in a weird situation or in a room of people I don't know, I still fall back in that. But I've. I've done a lot of work on that as well. And so there's tools that I've developed in my own personal life and words spoken to me. One of them is writing down how I know God sees me and repeating that to myself. And in my weakest moments, or there's a whole doc on my computer right now called My Values and the Things that I really care about and things that are important to me and repeating those over myself so that I can remind myself who I am and how God sees me. But I also think there's this ability where people see this and they're like, okay, you were on TV and you got married and you have a family and there's no way you feel like an outsider. There's no way you feel alone. And I'm like, no, that's the exact reason why I wrote this. Because I think when we least expect it from somebody, they might be the one really wanting to tell us, hey, I feel alone. So my solution to this is I think we have to get around the table more together. We have to sit in person more. We have to have conversations with each other, check in on each other. And I wrote alone in plain sight with the whole hope, sounds very simple, but the whole hope that the reader, wherever they're at, closes the book. And if anything, and nothing else, feels less alone. They just say, I can take one more step, I can take one more breath, or I can reach out to one friend. Today, it isn't what I expect to be this life changing book, but what I hope is it encourages people to keep going. Because I think in this generation currently is there's so many people who are going, I don't want to go any further. Yeah, I'm exhausted, I'm tired, I'm beat up. And so I get to ride alone in plain sight from my own story. But I also have this amazing opportunity that in, in life today, I've been able to meet some incredible people. There's stories of this little girl named Annie who was in her early 20s and had three lung transplants and was denied a fourth. And she had about three weeks to live. And she gave me the opportunity to speak with her for an hour and a half with three weeks left in her life, and she knew she had three weeks left in her life. She knew that she was dying and talk about what she wants to tell her family, what she wants her friends to know, and what she wants the public to know about what it looks like to stare death right in the face, because we all are, but it's not quantifiable like her situation was. Or a guy named Brandon who was a college athlete who moved to Denver. And I met him in a week into moving to Denver, he hit a sign skiing and broke his neck and is paralyzed from the shoulders down. And what that's done for him, he just got engaged. And it's all these stories of people who have had big things happen in their life that's drastically changed their course. Yeah, but they're not victims in it. They're victors in it. And they talk about it in a way that taught me a ton. And I just wanted to share that with, with whoever would listen.

Madison Pruitt Trout (49:37)

That's so, that's so powerful. And I, I do. I think this generation is crying out saying, like, does anyone see me? And does anybody care? Yeah, that like, that's just what, hey, does anybody love me? Does anybody see me? Like, I just want to know. Like, hey, like I'm waving my hand. And maybe like they're response to that is different. You know, go to something to numb it. You isolate you, whatever it may be. But I, I do. I think we were all wired with this like, innate desire to be loved and to be seen and to feel safe and, and that's why, you know, ultimately you can only find that in Jesus. But it is something that it's like, and I don't think it's really talked about enough honestly, of like, how you wrestle with it as a Christian. Of like, you have Jesus but yet you still feel depressed, you still feel lonely, you still feel isolated. Is there anything you would add to that? Of like, if, if someone's like, no, like, I am a Christian, but I still feel this way, like, and I don't know what to do about it.

Ben Higgins (50:44)

I mean, I think there's some beautiful things that have happened in my life where, where like it's affected our marriage. 100 we joked about couples therapy, but we, we love couples therapy. We went to a couples therapist for years when we were struggling this. Because I come into situations with Jessica sometimes feeling unlovable, feeling like whatever I say or whatever I do, she's not going to like me. And so I either get angry or I cower and, and kind of get paralyzed in my own thoughts. And that affects us as a couple. I also say, I think what you just said is completely true. And I think the, what I would say would be the first advice I would give is to admit that you love Jesus and that you, you have this relationship with Jesus, but that you still feel this way. And that's okay. You're not alone. Would be what I say in that. Like, if you feel that way, that's, that's fine. Like, you're not doing anything wrong. You shouldn't feel the shame and the guilt around that. It doesn't mean you're. That your relationship with God has changed. God is still reaching out to you and still. And still adores you. And I think it's okay to admit that and just know that I felt that way. I know she's felt that way. Like, you're not alone in that. And then some practical steps to work towards that is I do think a few friends in your life who you just pour these concerns, these thoughts, these feelings into is very helpful for them to speak into you and make sure they're speaking not platitudes, but they're speaking truth. It might be hard truth, but it might be the truth that you need to say, hey, I know that you struggle with this, or hey, here's some habits in your life that are. Are pushing you away from people and pushing you away from the Lord. Here's some things I've noticed and I just want to tell you that, like, I want to hold you accountable to try to change those things. But it's. It's also. There's this beautiful thing. And I think. I don't want this to sound just like too simplified, but there's this beautiful thing that I've seen in 36 years of life that the Lord does. I have never met anyone who's gotten on their hands and knees and cried out to God in all their honesty and all their truth and everything they're feeling. And God hasn't responded yet to see it. I've never known God to stay silent for too long. Now. There might be a season of silence, but he's. He's working still. He's still there. He still hears. I don't want it to sound over simplified, but I would love for people who love the Lord and are feeling separated and feeling all these things to cry out and pain and anger to a God above who can handle it and say, God, I need you. I need you. Because this is what's going on. And be honest with the Lord and I. Hundreds, thousands or whatever of times, God has shown up at some point.

Madison Pruitt Trout (53:34)

Yeah.

Ben Higgins (53:35)

And rocked your world. It might not be easy, but God shows up.

Madison Pruitt Trout (53:39)

Yeah. No, that's so good, having that moment. There's been a lot of those moments in my life where I've. I've done that. And I specifically remember one in college of just like crying out to the Lord, feeling so alone, feeling so unlovable, feeling rejected, like, and at that time, it's like, I look back now and I'm like, you know, why was I feeling it so intensely? Because it was a lot of it was tied to, like, sorority life and like, getting dropped by a lot of sororities And. And so it's like, now I look back and I'm like, why did I feel that so intense? But in that moment, it was so heavy, and it was like, okay, I'm unlovable. I'm not pickable. Like, I'm rejected. I'm not good enough. I feel alone in this. It feels like everybody else, like, fits in. Everybody else gets their thing. And I know probably a lot of people listening in some way, shape or form have felt that or are feeling that. And. Yeah, and I just. I love that you're just saying, like, you're not crazy for feeling that no matter where you are in your faith journey. Strong believer, you know, not a believer, figuring out your faith. Like, we all have those moments, and I think all of our advice would be the same of, like, call out to God, cry out to God, and ask him to reveal himself to you. And I love that in scripture, you know, the Holy Spirit's name is, like, comforter and counselor. And so, you know, I fully believe and, like, get. Get therapy. Find godly community. I talk about that on this podcast a lot. And, like, the beautiful thing about the God that we love, and if you don't know him, I encourage you to know him, because the best decision I ever made is that he is the comforter. And, like, he will come through and he will answer. I don't know about the timeline, but he will. And. And he will counsel you and lead you. But then also, there's going to be moments where you have to take those steps, where you have to take some accountability, where you have to take some action. And I know for me, it was getting plugged into my local church at the time, joining a small group and doing some really awkward things to build, like, authentic, deep connection with people. Um, because I was like, I know I'm not meant to stay in, like, this, you know, season of, like, isolating myself. How have, like, you guys been, you know, how, like, what practical, I guess, advice would you guys encourage, you know, someone who maybe finds themselves in that, like, season of isolation? Has there been anything that's been helpful for you or that you would encourage with them to take those next steps to, like, build that authentic connection?

Jessica Higgins (56:16)

I think. Getting uncomfortable. I am an internal processor, which is another hard thing to bring into marriage, because I. I don't let people until I think I have my thoughts fully developed and perfect. But a lot of that makes you even more isolated. I dealt with that a lot postpartum. It was the first time I'd ever felt Anxious. I had really bad postpartum anxiety, which is not something people warned me about. I got warned about depression, but never anxiety. And it would be things that, like, did not make sense. Like, it was irrational anxiety, but I was scared to say it out loud. And so I isolated and I got really, like, sad and withdrawn in that postpartum time, and I didn't feel, like. Feel like anyone understood me. And I wish that what I had done is, like, even come to Ben and been like, this is so crazy that this is how I'm feeling, but this is how I'm feeling. Because I think when you let people in, I always say vulnerability breeds vulnerability, and you'll realize and, like, talking to someone else, like, you're not alone in it. And I. And I think it's just important to bear all of those things with somebody because it'll make. I think it makes you understand yourself better, too, when you can say it out loud and you verbalize it. And even if I had said some of the things I was feeling anxious about out loud, I think I would have realized that there wasn't any power in them. But I just held them in and it made it worse.

Madison Pruitt Trout (57:37)

That's so true. Like, the enemy only really has power with the things that we keep in the dark. As soon as you bring it to the light, it's like the chains immediately start falling off. And that's why there is so much power in confession. Confessing to God, confessing to godly community. And, you know, if that's your spouse, if that's a friend, that's a mentor. Like, finding someone to confess those thoughts, those lies, those feelings, because they're real, but it doesn't mean they're true. Um, and I think that's what. It gets hard sometimes, because it's like, oh, I feel this so deeply, so it must be true. And then it festers, and then it turns into this whole belief system that you've isolated in and nobody else knows about it. And that. I mean, that's been true for me so often. I'm very much a, like, independent. I can do this. I can conquer this. I can figure this out. And I've just learned, you know, that's not true strength at all, actually. That's like.

Jessica Higgins (58:31)

No.

Madison Pruitt Trout (58:31)

Like, true strength is being able to say, like, I don't have this together. And I want someone who's an expert, AKA God. God, to, like, speak into this and also invite in wise counsel and to confess these things. And, you know, talked about it earlier, but James 5, like, confessing to one another and praying for each other is where we find healing and freedom. But when it stays in our mind or it stays in our soul, like, it really is so tormenting. And I know for me, in seasons of, like, even just, like, battling shame, it's like, if I kept that inside, it just, like, continued to grow and spread into different areas of my life, and that belief system would just, like, keep growing and keep growing. And. And I talk about on this podcast, like, to kill shame is to confess shame. It's to kill sin. Confess sin, like, to whatever it is. The lie, like, to kill the lie, confess the lie, and. And then have someone, like, speak the truth over it. And I love that you were talking about, like, on your computer having, like, the truth on your computer, because as soon as we step foot out of our house, maybe even before then, we're going to be hit with so many lies. And especially in a season like postpartum, it's so. We're so, like, vulnerable in so many ways, and our life just changed drastically. And you've never been needed like this in your whole life. And you're just like, what is happening? Your hormones are going crazy, and it's hard to figure out what's true and what's real. And. And I love that you're just talking about the power of just, like, speaking into the light, bringing other people into it, because holding it in really only creates more harm because then you can't figure out, like, am I crazy? Is this true? What's real?

Jessica Higgins (60:11)

And I actually confided in a friend in that because I thought I was the only one that was dealing with this anxiety. And I have a lot of friends who've had babies before me. And I texted her and I was like, I feel like maybe you said you dealt with this, like, tell me more about it. And she sent me this long list of things that she did because she had felt the exact same way as me, like, down to, like, the body shakes. Like, all of it was exactly the same. And I was so thankful that I reached out to her and I confided in her for weeks. And, like, we just sent voice memos back and forth, and, like, it changed everything for me, and it made me, like, get through. I think I would have been completely debilitated, probably got on medication without this friend. So I just think it is. It's so important, and you just don't know until you talk to somebody.

Madison Pruitt Trout (60:52)

I literally got full body chills when you were talking about that, because I really think that's going to be breakthrough for somebody is just to find that godly person that you can confess those lies or those feelings to that you've been so scared to share because you thought that that would make you, like, you feel like you're the only one. And it's wild how freeing it actually is when you say that thing out loud and when you invite somebody else into it, whether they have struggled with it. Exactly. Or they have struggled with something different in a different way, that they can just encourage you with scripture and pray for you and hold you accountable is. Is so huge. I'd love to end with just like, how have you guys been able to be there for one another when you find yourself in a place of. And you kind of were speaking to it a little bit. But, like, even for those who are married or in a relationship, like, what advice would you give for if someone in the relationship is struggling with anxiety or isolation or loneliness or depression, whatever it may be in the mental health space to be there for your spouse or the person that you're dating or the friend that you have, like, what is the best way to really show up and.

Jessica Higgins (61:56)

And love?

Madison Pruitt Trout (61:56)

Well, in those moments.

Ben Higgins (61:58)

Yeah, I mean, I think I. I knew I know who Jess is talking about. And so I think it's a both. And like, as a partner, I want her to be able to talk to me and confide in me. I also want to know that I have a limitation on what she can talk to me about that I'll have any clue on. And she knows that. And so there is a freedom for her to say, okay, I want to tell Ben, but I don't know if Ben will understand. So I'm going to reach out to a friend. And so when you're saying, like, find somebody. Yes, I'd say it's both. And your partner should always be let in. But there's things in my life that I really don't talk to Jess about because she won't understand. So I have a few buddies who will hold me accountable and that I can check up on and be like, hey, these things are going on in my head. And I think it would be really hurtful if I told Jess this before I really process it out. So will you talk to me about this? And so I can go back to her and maybe communicate it in a way that's going to be healthier for our relationship and not just like, dumping all of these, like, man thoughts on her. And it's helped me, I think, be a better husband, a better partner. A better friend because I've let my friends in and that's been really helpful. I'd say if you have. My advice would be if you have a partner who's struggling, I think the encouragement that I would give them is to get out there. What I mean by that is we have some passions and some purposes that are very clear in our lives and I think our best way to overcome some of this isolation and loneliness is by serving. That sounds very like Christian, I get that. But I think the Bible is, I think the Bible is truth. And I think there's some really great messages that all people in the world can pick up on, even if you're a Christian or not, is by getting out in the world and serving others. Science will tell us it brings us personally the most joy, the most fulfillment. It also connects us to a community of people who are like minded and share a similar passion. And it also puts us out into the world to do some work that we believe is helping and not hurting. And so my encouragement for anybody that feels isolated is for the partner to give their partner the freedom to say, get out into the world. Like, I can do this alongside of you. Or if you just need a break, get out there and serve others or get out there and experience the life around you. Because the longer you sit here in this like shame, judgment, depression, whatever it is, the harder it's going to get for you. And Jessica's incredible at this. Is she in our marriage has given me the freedom to explore passions and purposes that I know God created me for with the freedom to know I can do it full steam ahead and that she's going to be alongside me in it. And it's made me feel honestly less alone because of the community has brought

Madison Pruitt Trout (64:44)

me that's so good.

Jessica Higgins (64:46)

I think the advice that I would give is to check up on people even if you think that their life is perfect or you don't think they're going through anything. Because I know when I had Winnie, if you looked at my social media you'd think I everything was great, I had all together, she's sleeping great, things are good. But like internally I was having such a hard time and that friend checked up on me every single single day and it's made me check up on friends who have had babies as much as I can because you just, and even if you haven't had a baby, this is just my relevant example to me. But like if you have someone that you're like, oh, I just haven't talked to them in a While. Or I wonder how they're doing. Like, send the text, have the phone call, knock on their door, send them a meal, whatever you think that they could use, because you just have no idea. And, like, those, like, little text messages of just like, hey, how are you? Can change your whole day.

Madison Pruitt Trout (65:35)

Totally.

Jessica Higgins (65:36)

We have a.

Ben Higgins (65:36)

We have a rule in our house. We don't have a lot of rules. We have a rule in our house, and I think it's. I just shared this the other day to a group of people, and I didn't realize how, like, shocking it was. They don't. They actually didn't believe it. But when. When Jessica and I are in conversation and a name gets brought up of somebody, we have a rule that you have to send them a text right away. So if Jessica's like, hey, this friend that I have, I wonder what she's up to today. It's like, she has to stop, send them a text and just be like, hey, I was talking about you. I was thinking about you. How are you doing? And I think it's really helped me stay connected to a group of friends that maybe I would just, like, forget about. Not on purpose, just, like, they be flashing, but every once in a while, we're in a conversation like, oh, that reminds me of my buddy Gary, who, you know, from high school, and I haven't talked to him in so long, and it's okay. Send him a text.

Madison Pruitt Trout (66:19)

Wow.

Ben Higgins (66:20)

And so you send a text.

Madison Pruitt Trout (66:21)

That's a cool. That's a really cool idea.

Ben Higgins (66:23)

Yeah, it just helps.

Madison Pruitt Trout (66:24)

Yeah, that's a really cool way to just, like, constantly be thinking, because it's. I love that you're both bringing it back to this idea of, like, it's so easy. And it's. It's hard to talk about this because, like, mental health is a really. It's a hard thing that a lot of people, a lot of us and in different seasons struggle with differently. And I think what's really, really hard, mental, emotional, like, all kinds of different things that we walk through is that we can just think about that all the time, 24, 7, in our own minds about ourselves all the time. And I know I'm have done that. And it's like, one of the greatest ways that we fight a lot of the problems that we feel and carry is to, like, just stop thinking about ourselves for a second and go and, like, serve other people and check up on other people and. And still, like, get the help you need to get. Like, take, like, do the things you need to do to take care of yourself 100. I'm not saying negate that, but to. To your point of just, like, man, how can I go and serve somebody? Like, how can I. I talk about this on the podcast all the time. Like, how can I, as, like, someone who, like, maybe I, you know, struggle with social anxiety when I walk into a church, how can I then, like, walk into a church and have the perspective of who can I go encourage? Who can I see? Who can I love? Who can I serve? Who can I wash their feet? Like, how can I have that perspective rather than, you know, my own sin nature? Perspective will be okay. Like, is anybody gonna talk to me? Are they judging me? Are they thinking about me? Are they gonna, like, do, like. Like, I don't know, like, see this, that I do and then, like, think this about me or post this about me, and I have to, like, fight that consistently with the mindset. And I don't always do it well, but with that mindset of just like, how can I serve? How can I show up? How can I encourage? And I think that's such a beautiful, tangible thing that everybody listening can apply, whether you relate to everything we've talked about or you don't, but just continually having the mindset of how can I serve? Like, if my life is not my own, if I belong to God, or if I'm on the journey to figure that out, like, it will bring so much more fulfillment, purpose, and joy to my life, to not live my life only for myself, but to continue to pour out my life and serve other people and love other people. So I just love that you guys touched on that, and I think that was the perfect way to end in a tangible, little practical thing that everybody listening can take away. And I'm so grateful that you guys came on and shared your wisdom and your story and just that we get to be friends. And I learned from you guys and I'm grateful for. Yeah. Just friends that challenge me and encourage me. And so super grateful for Yalls. Yes. In your platform and your message. And I will definitely be including in this podcast the link in the show notes to Ben's book and to all the different things that you can follow Jess and Ben and what they're doing. But I'm just so grateful for you guys and would love if one of you or either one of you would just pray over those listening.

Ben Higgins (69:21)

Jessica's our dinner prayer. So I think.

Madison Pruitt Trout (69:23)

So you're a little prayer warrior.

Jessica Higgins (69:26)

My prayers are short and sweet.

Ben Higgins (69:27)

That's perfect.

Jessica Higgins (69:28)

Okay. Yeah. Dear Jesus, we thank you for Maddie. We thank you for the way that she is using the platform that you have given her. We thank you for the ability to be together in this room and to talk. Today, we just pray blessings over everyone that is listening. We pray that everyone that's listening will feel less alone in some way or form when they in this podcast. And we just pray for the rest of our day and that you'll watch over us as we travel home. Amen.

Madison Pruitt Trout (69:52)

I love it. Jesus name. Amen. Thank you, Lord. All right, well, guys, as always, be sure to stay you and stay true. We love you.