NOT AGAIN: The Iran Conflict Is Starting to Feel Familiar | Guest: John D. Davidson | 4/30/26

Summary

Steve Deace Show

Episode: NOT AGAIN: The Iran Conflict Is Starting to Feel Familiar

Guest: John Daniel Davidson
Date: April 30, 2026
Network: Blaze Podcast Network

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Steve Deace and his co-hosts tackle the mounting Iran crisis, exploring the echoes of past U.S. military entanglements and the political consequences of ongoing conflict. Senior Federalist editor John Daniel Davidson joins in to analyze America’s murky “theory of victory,” the consequences for Middle East alliances (especially the Arab bloc), and the challenges of sound conservative messaging amidst rising domestic discontent. In the second hour, the team embarks on a rare deep dive into Eastern Orthodoxy, sparked by a viral clip and broader questions of Old vs. New Testament continuity in Christian theology.

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Key Segments and Insights

1. The Iran Conflict: "Operation Epic Siege"

00:01 — 29:14

• Blockade as 'Genius' or Quagmire?

  • President Trump hails the U.S. naval blockade of Iran as “genius” and claims near-total military dominance ("They have no military left. It's all the Navy's at the bottom of the sea. The Air Force is never gonna. We've got an amazing military now." — John Daniel Davidson quoting political spin, 00:20)
  • Treasury Secretary Scott Besant details economic sanctions, including threats to freeze assets and target foreign buyers of Iranian oil

• Political Realities of 'Siege Strategy'

  • Deace notes the U.S. campaign resembles a classical siege: blockading Iran’s vital Strait of Hormuz to choke resources without full-scale invasion
  • Historical context: Compares strategy to ancient examples like Nebuchadnezzar’s siege of Jerusalem

• Mission Creep and Domestic Fatigue

  • The hosts compare Trump's “mission accomplished” rhetoric to George W. Bush’s declaration after the Iraq invasion, warning that such pronouncements can backfire if setbacks arise
  • Open acknowledgment that Americans' patience is already thin: “When you're just saying they're at the bottom of the sea and using jingoistic messaging like that... We saw how this worked. Mission accomplished. In many ways, the Bush administration never recovered from that loss of trust.” — Todd Erzin, 20:25

• Political 'Point of No Return'

  • Deace argues that once the blockade of Hormuz became central, the U.S. forfeited the option of a limited, face-saving withdrawal. Anything short of total regime change and reopening the strait will be seen as failure:
    • “Now, politically, we cannot [leave]. We have to walk out with a significant victory.” — Todd Erzin, 20:47

• Wider Repercussions

  • Arab allies like Saudi Arabia and the UAE are risking political capital by supporting the coalition; a perceived U.S. withdrawal or half-measure would leave them dangerously exposed to their own radicals:
    • “If we do that, people in Beijing are watching, people in Pyongyang are watching, people in Tehran are watching.” — Todd Erzin, 22:04

Notable Quote:

“There's a lot of tentacles to this, which is why I was against going in at the beginning, because I just didn't think we had the wherewithal to navigate and negotiate all those things with a myriad of our own problems. But since we're there now, we do have to consider the world that we're in, not the world that we prefer it to be.”
— Todd Erzin, 24:06

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2. Guest Interview: John Daniel Davidson (The Federalist)

31:40 — 41:06

• America Lacks a Clear Theory of Victory

  • Davidson criticizes the administration’s shifting goals — from regime change to nuclear containment to control of Straits of Hormuz:
    • “They have not been able to articulate in a consistent way what the goal of the war is... I think part of the frustration for the American people and why the war is increasingly unpopular as time goes by is that nobody in the administration has been able to articulate a clear theory of victory and a plausible path to get there.” — John Daniel Davidson, 32:34

• Current Scorecard: America Is Losing

  • "If we stopped today, we would have lost the war. The regime is intact. They now control the Strait of Hormuz, which they didn't before the war." — Davidson, 33:30

• The Arab Coalition’s Predicament

  • U.S. bases in the region have proven vulnerable to Iranian missile attacks; Arab partners face backlash at home for siding with America/Israel and risk fallout if U.S. support falters
  • America’s promises of 'protection' appear increasingly hollow

Memorable Quote:

"What is in it for them? And why are we investing so much of American taxpayer dollars in this part of the world if, as Trump says, we don't need their oil, we're energy independent?"
— John Daniel Davidson, 38:55

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3. National and Cultural Identity: Immigration & Americanism

41:06 — 45:39

• America: Idea or People?

  • The episode pivots to Trump’s recent remarks about “shared English and Christian patrimony” during a state visit by the King of England
  • Davidson and hosts discuss what makes someone “American”: Is it paperwork and laws, or a common heritage and culture?
    • “Our institutions are English. Our way of thinking about governance and society and our relationship to one another... all derived from England.” — Davidson, 39:13

• The Limits of Assimilation

  • Davidson contrasts assimilation of European immigrants from "a common Christian civilization" with mass migration from cultures lacking those shared roots:
    • “The common Christian religion of Europe made mass Immigration from that continent possible in a way not without problems... but it made it possible for them to become fully American and assimilate to our English Christian culture.” — Davidson, 44:26

Notable Exchange:

“That is the answer. But. But we're gonna have to be prepared to give that answer to make the case you want to make, because that's going to be the challenge.” — Todd Erzin, 44:32

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4. Preview & Teaser: Eastern Orthodoxy and Trinitarian Differences

51:48 — 63:50

• The next hour is set up as a deep dive into the beliefs and distinctions of the Eastern Orthodox Church, prompted by a viral clip from Archpriest Josiah Trenham
• Deace outlines major differences between the Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant branches:
  • Nuances in trinitarian structure (On Orthodox “hierarchy within the Trinity”)
  • Sola Scriptura vs tradition and authority
  • Views on sacraments, salvation (“long obedience in the same direction”), and the Eucharist

Notable Moment:

“We're kind of trying to pick up, in sports terms, trying to pick up a new offense to some degree here.” — Steve Dace, 63:35

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5. Viral Clip Breakdown: “We don't follow the Old Testament at all” (Fr. Josiah Trenham)

65:24 — 90:00

• Clip Summary

  • Trenham claims, “We don't follow the Old Testament at all. The Old Testament is our root. … Christians read the Old Testament through the New Testament because everything in the Old Testament was about Jesus Christ. … Once [Pentecost] happens, a much higher way of life...is established as normative. So it would make no sense for us to follow the Old Testament.” (65:24)

• Panel Reactions

  • Both Todd Erzin (Catholic) and Aaron McIntyre (Protestant) see nothing controversial in context; agree that Christians do not live under Old Testament law, but understand it as fulfilled in Christ.
    • “Nothing about this is remotely controversial from a Catholic perspective.” — Todd Erzin, 68:03
    • “I'd need to know more, but what he did, I wouldn't have said it the same way, but what he did, I would need to know more to be a little bit more concerned.” — Steve Dace, 71:10

• Marcionism or Not?

  • Deace clarifies the difference between true Marcionite heresy—severing Christianity from Judaism and asserting the Old Testament as a “different god”—and traditional readings that see Christ as the fulfillment of the Old Testament

    • “I want to make sure we're calling actual heretics heretics. ... The automatic 'Israel is my homeboy' position that a lot of you are used to hearing is dying out…” — Steve Dace, 82:30

  • The group concludes Trenham’s comments are not Marcionite or heretical, but an Orthodox articulation of standard Christian belief about law, fulfillment, and redemptive progression

    • “Of course not.” — Aaron McIntyre on whether Trenham is a Marcionite, 94:31

Key Quotes:

"If Father Trenum was here, we'd have to ask him, what does follow mean? If it means follow the laws of the Old Testament ... that has been finished. Christ finished that work at the cross.” — Todd Erzin, 86:47

“Heretics do not go deep. Otherwise they'd be nuanced and not be heretics.” — Steve Dace, 95:47

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Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• "They have no military left. It's all the Navy's at the bottom of the sea. ... We've got an amazing military now."
  — John Daniel Davidson, sarcastically referencing official spin (00:21)

• “We can't allow the precedent to stand, that now that we've attacked Iran, Iran gets to control and blockade the Strait of Hormuz. ... That's a worse scenario, That's a worse outcome than before the war even broke out.”
  — Steve Dace, 21:06

• “If we stopped today, we would have lost the war. The regime is intact. They now control the Strait of Hormuz, which they didn't before the war.”
  — John Daniel Davidson, 33:30

• “You do not get America without England.”
  — John Daniel Davidson, 39:13

• "It's simply because of that common, you know, culture. It comes from the word cult. Right. Culture is the outgrowth of religious beliefs and practices. And so the common Christian religion of Europe made mass Immigration from that continent possible...”
  — John Daniel Davidson, 44:26

• “Heretics always keep it shallow, go hard.”
  — Steve Dace, 95:47

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Key Takeaways

• Iran Crisis:

  • The U.S. is engaged in something like a siege, blocking Iran’s resources rather than direct assault in hopes of regime collapse. The administration’s lack of clear end-goal and shifting rhetoric is fueling domestic doubt and risking broader foreign policy setbacks.

• Abortive Withdrawal Risks:

  • Quitting now would signal weakness to adversaries and betray Arab allies, possibly causing ripple effects across the region and diminishing American credibility globally.

• National Identity Debates:

  • There's tension within the right about “what makes an American.” Historic assimilation depended on a common Christian cultural foundation—missing in current waves of migration.

• Orthodoxy Segment:

  • The show delivers a careful introduction to Orthodox Christianity, its theology’s relationship to Protestant and Catholic traditions, and the danger of mislabeling disagreements or unfamiliar formulations as heretical.

• Online Discourse Caution:

  • Panelists urge discernment when clips are shared (e.g., by state media) and warn against knee-jerk judgment based purely on who’s sharing content.

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:01 – 29:14: Iran conflict: Blockade, political context, “siege” metaphor
• 31:40 – 41:06: John Daniel Davidson interview on U.S. war aims, Arab coalition, theory of victory
• 41:06 – 45:39: American identity, immigration, shared heritage vs. “nation of ideas”
• 51:48 – 63:50: Orthodox Christianity 101
• 65:24 – 90:00: Viral clip and analysis: “Not following the Old Testament” (Fr. Josiah Trenham), heresy or not?

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Summary Style

Faithful to the show's “principled conservatism with a snarky twist,” the conversation rhythmically moves between dead-serious policy stakes, accessible history and theology, and sidewise humor and inside references. The hosts balance skepticism of mainstream/right-wing orthodoxy (military, political, and religious) with an eagerness to hash out sincerely held differences and push their audience towards greater discernment and nuance.

Transcript

[Steve Dace]

It's the Steve Day Show. And here's what happened while we were away, brought to you by laying siege. As the naval blockade of Iran continues and more rumors of renewed military strikes start to stir, President Trump at the White House says the blockade is genius.

[Todd Erzin]

Okay? The blockade has been 100% foolproof. It shows how good our Navy is.

[John Daniel Davidson]

I can tell you that.

[Todd Erzin]

Nobody's gonna play games.

[John Daniel Davidson]

I mean, militarily, we've wiped them out. They have no military left. It's all the Navy's at the bottom of the sea. The Air Force is never gonna. We've got an amazing military now.

[Todd Erzin]

They have to cry uncle. That's all they have to do.

[Steve Dace]

Iranian Supreme Leader Mataba Khamenei, or somebody writing on his behalf, sent out a series of angry screeds this morning stating that Iranian forces will put American forces at the bottom of the sea, that Hormuz is Iran's and that Iran will continue to ensure regional security. Treasury Secretary Scott Besant outlines what the American strategy is at this juncture of, of the conflict.

[Scott Besant]

We've been in a long race and we are sprinting for the finish line. And we have gone to the buyers of Iranian oil and told them that we are going.

[Todd Erzin]

We are willing to do secondary sanctions

[John Daniel Davidson]

on your industries, on your banks who

[Scott Besant]

tolerate Iranian oil in their system. One of the big mistakes out of many that the Iranian leadership made was

[John Daniel Davidson]

bombing their GCC counterparts because for years

[Todd Erzin]

we had heard that there was no

[John Daniel Davidson]

IRGC money in their bank accounts.

[Scott Besant]

Now they've become more transparent and we

[Todd Erzin]

are freezing those bank accounts for the Iranian people.

[Steve Dace]

Back on domestic matters, the Voting Rights act is not the only activity at the Supreme Court this week as the court heard oral arguments in a case trying to figure out if Haitian nationals, among others, have a right to be in the country. Here's Justice Sotomayor.

[Aaron McIntyre]

We have a president saying at one point that Haiti is a, quote, filthy, dirty and disgusting s hole country. I'm quoting him.

[Todd Erzin]

And where he complained that the United States takes people from such countries instead

[Aaron McIntyre]

of people from Norway, Sweden or Denmark.

[Todd Erzin]

No, you're not wrong.

[Steve Dace]

In another decision handed down around the same time as the Voting Rights act ruling came down, the court ruled nine to nothing, yes, nine to nothing, unanimously in favor of New Jersey Pro Life women's clinics that had come under scrutiny for reasons by the state's Attorney general, with the latter attempting to force the Pro Life center to reveal the names and contact information of its donors. The court ruled even Ketanji, Brown, Jackson, the crisis pregnancy centers can indeed go to federal court to block such subpoenas in the future. In Florida, that state's redistricting map, which likely adds four Republican pickups in the House, is as good as law, passing both state chambers during a quick special session and will now be signed into law by Governor Ron DeSantis. In Minnesota, a federal grand jury handed down indictments for Christopher Deanna and Paige Ostrucco connected to the assault On Turning Point USA reporter Savannah Hernandez at a U.S. immigration and Customs Enforcement protest in Minneapolis earlier in April. While it was initially reported that two of the three would be facing charges, Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche has announced all three were indicted and will be facing charges. The incident happened on April 11 outside the Whipple Federal Building, where a protest was taking place over a local ICE field office that serves as a detention facility. In New York City, Mayor Zoran Mamdani says he has not yet begun to spend other people's money.

[Aaron McIntyre]

New York City faces a budget crisis of a historic magnitude.

[Steve Dace]

Okay, then. And moving on. Erica Kirk, widow of Charlie Kirk, recorded a video message yesterday explaining why she went to the White House Correspondents Association's dinner over the weekend, saying she went there to meet some of the very people slandering her face to face. She says the country is getting increasingly sick.

[Todd Erzin]

Our country has become unrecognizable.

[Aaron McIntyre]

These people have perverted the truth to the point that they motivated the murder of my husband. They have continuously tried to assassinate the president, and anyone who stands in their way is labeled hateful, racist, fascist, and

[Todd Erzin]

every other trigger word that is grossly dishonest.

[Aaron McIntyre]

We want the best for our country. They don't. This is why Charlie started Turning Point

[Todd Erzin]

USA in the first place.

[Aaron McIntyre]

He didn't trust the radicalized liberal teachers.

[Todd Erzin]

And this past Saturday, it was a schoolteacher, of all people, a schoolteacher that attempted to change our history for the worst with bullets.

[Aaron McIntyre]

While we may have big problems with

[Steve Dace]

illegal immigration in this country, I have

[Todd Erzin]

to tell you we have an even bigger problem when it comes to the systemic indoctrination and radicalization of our own citizens. Sam, you can. Are we good? All right. Yeah. Sorry about that, folks. I have no idea what happened there because the first minute and a half of what Erica said there could not have been more correct. So, I mean, there's a ton to talk about based on that montage. By the way, I've been to Haiti, seen most of the country, and Trump is entirely and sadly correct about that. No one, absolutely no one has a right to come to America. And how Bad is your case on the left when you can't even get the DEI judge to side with you? We'll get to that more here next on the Steve Day Show. All right, greetings. Happy Thursday here on the Steve Day Show. I am him. He is Todd Erzin. He is Aaron McIntyre. We're brought to you by our friends over at Birch Gold as you continue to see the instability that is happening around the world. Keep in mind that gold has increased by over 12,000% in value since we went off the gold standard before Todd and I were born. 12,000% in value. And Birch Gold just announced their Learn and Earn Precious Metals event. It's a free online event that rewards you for learning the basics of investing in precious metals. Sign up to get free silver on your next purchase and get even larger incentives as you go because the more you learn, the more you're gonna earn. But you must act now, as this special event only runs through April 30th. The dollar lost its anchor in 1971. Don't lose yours today. Text my name, Steve to the number 989-898 to join Birchgold's Learn and Earn Precious metals event by the end of today. Today's your deadline. All right, text Steve to 989-898. Again, text Steve to 989898. And also don't forget, the final episode of the COVID up is out now. Lab leak is the promo code for you get a discounted subscription to Blaze TV so you do not miss it. Gives you $40 off at fauci coverup.com dace that's fauci coverup.com Dace the Code Lab leak gets you $40 off a BlazeTV subscription so you don't miss this. And then all the other previous episodes that led up to it@fauci coverup.com DACE code lab leak. All right, coming up on today's show, John Daniel Davidson is going to join us, senior editor over at the Federalist. We'll be talking to him about what happened yesterday at the Supreme Court with voting rights and then a comment that Aaron included in his montage yesterday that we did not address at the time because we were going to save it for this conversation where the president as, as he was welcoming in the king of England, talking about America's heritage and where it comes from and why that matters. And we're going to discuss that as well, coming up with John at the bottom of the hour. And then next hour for theology Thursday. You know, it's dawned on Me, we've really, really never, I mean we've been doing it used to be called Worldview Wednesday and then about a decade ago it became Theology Thursday. We've, we've never really delved into the Eastern Orthodox Church and we see them as part of our overall trinitarian coalition of small O Orthodoxy. They would consider themselves capital O Orthodox. And so we're going to do that. Coming up in the next hour of the show, we'll tell you a little bit about the Orthodox Church, some of the variations that exist between them and Catholics and Protestants. It's not a huge community. I think there's only about 2 million Orthodox Eastern Orthodox Christians in America. And to put that in perspective, there's over 8 million Jews in America. Right. So it's not a huge contingent of people. I think it's about 9 million, I think Mormons. So it's, it's not a, it's not a huge contingent of people, but it is an ancient church. And, and, and, and we're going to take a look at some recent comments by I guess we'd say kind of the Orthodox American, you know, Orthodox Church version of a Mike Schmitz, maybe in, in, in your tribe or, and I got that name right. Right. The, because he's the priest that's like dominating the podcast world right now.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Yeah.

[Todd Erzin]

And on our side, the guy who's kind of dominating things right now is the, is the Texas pastor Josh Howerton. So we're going to look at a guy named Joseph Trenum who is kind of the leading, one of the leading influencers online and around the country for American Orthodox Christians. And we're going to spend some time next hour talking about him at that church. And then what we think he has to say about one of the more controversial issues in the church right now, and that's what's our relationship to the Old Testament? Is it still valid? What's that mean for the nation of Israel, etc. Etc. All right, so we're going to get into that coming up in the next hour of the show. But let's, let's get going with what Aaron was able to highlight in his montage before we had a technical snafu there. I think what you're watching take place when you look at the comments now from Scott Besant. You look at the president saying yesterday that they're essentially prepared for a long term blockade of the Straits of Hormuz. I think what you're watching and it's never going to get called this, okay. And, but I think you're watching Operation Epic Fury. I think you're watching its next phase. It's transitioning to Operation Epic Siege. And I've been talking about siege strategy now for about a week on the show. And you see siege strategy in the Bible, by the way. You see Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians do it to the Israelite people in the Old Testament. That's just one example where they essentially wait them out and they blockade any more goods and services coming in through the city walls into Jerusalem so that once they've exhausted their existing resources, now the kingdom kind of implodes on its own. Because in ancient times, cities were fortified by giant walls, so it would not be easy to invade. And this is before we have cannonballs and the kinds of things that, you know, could do great damage to these kinds of superstructures. We're still centuries away from that kind of wartime technology. And so these giant city walls would do a phenomenal job of repelling invaders. And so the way that invaders would respond is they would launch what's called a siege. And, and that siege entailed instead of trying to get over the wall, instead of trying to deconstruct the wall, you surrounded the wall, and you did not allow anything in or out. And you made the. You made the occupants inside of the city walls essentially choke on their own wall. And now, sieges would take a long time. In the ancient world, a lot of civilizations would have resources backed up for weeks, if not months. And then, of course, once they knew they were under siege, they start rationing those resources, right? And so sometimes you could. This could, you know, grab a Snickers, you're not going anywhere for a while. This. This could happen. This could go for a long time. But it was done so that you don't risk your own soldiers trying to come up over the wall where they're sitting ducks while their army's just sitting there waiting to pick you off. And it was also done so that maybe you could also lessen the casualties on the back end of coming over the wall, because there's fewer soldiers and resources on the other side waiting for you hand to hand, combat style, because that's largely what warfare was in the ancient world. And if you look at where we are, and by all means, as I lay this out for the next couple of minutes, gentlemen, feel free to tell me I'm completely wrong, okay? Not that I ever have to give you guys permission to do that. You always have permission to do that. That's part of your Job description, but I just want to make sure I'm not. I'm observing something here. I'm not selling something. Okay. I'm trying to connect dots here, and I might be totally wrong, but if you look at the two realities of the three realities, if you look at the three realities of where we are with this war, I would rank them in the following order. Number one, whether you thought we should do this or not, and I did myself posit several concerns and hesitations about this going in, did I not?

[Aaron McIntyre]

Yes.

[Todd Erzin]

Despite my near lifelong disdain for the Iranian regime is also very well documented, correct?

[Aaron McIntyre]

Yes.

[Todd Erzin]

So I shared many of the concerns. As I see where the inflation rate is now back to 3.5% and everything. Again, the stuff that I'm seeing right now, these are all the things I was concerned about. All right? But I also now believe if we're gonna go, we have to win, and we have to come out of this with something sellable. And. And once we got to the straight of Hormuz blockade, which I'll talk about as one of the other factors to consider here, I think the odds then, once we decided to blockade Hormuz, I think the odds that we could just say, hey, we've killed enough of their high command. We've demolished enough of their military readiness and capability. We're done here. We mowed the lawn. Okay? This is the shortest the lawn's ever been. We plucked out all the weeds. We even put some fertilizer down. All right. You know, maybe call us again in a few years if we have to come back, but back to, you know, standard operating procedure, there was a window, I believe that we could politically sell that as that's our big win. Right. And I think we were even talking about that like, a month ago here on the show. What if we had to, like, every few years, go back and mow the lawn in Iran? All right, okay. I think once we decided to blockade Hormuz, I don't think politically, and I want to make sure. I'm. By the way, I'm. I'm speaking about this politically. I. I don't have any. Any critical mass of information at all to be speaking about this from a military militarily. I don't. From a strategy standpoint, from a capability standpoint, I want to make that very, very clear. That's a pay grade way above me. Okay. What I do get paid fairly well to do is analyze political situation. So I'm just looking at this politically clear.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Yes.

[Todd Erzin]

All right. Never been there, don't know the region. I've not. I'm not getting intelligence briefings. I am not qualified in any way, shape or form to be making any kind of militarily or military assessments of strategy and readiness. And none of. I'm not doing any of that. I'm just doing what I do. I'm looking at it politically, that's all right. I think politically, therefore, the window for us to just say, all right, hey, the lawn is shorter than it's ever been. We plucked out as many weeds as we could, all right, Sent a message. They're not nearly the clear and present danger they were, you know, three weeks ago. And back to standard operating procedure. Once we did. Once we, once we made the Strait of Hormuz a key part of our messaging to the world. I think the window to close that as your win closed. And I think if we do that politically now without a secure Hormuz, we will have given the Iranian regime a rallying cry they would not have had if we just would have left before we got to the Strait of Hormuz. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

[Aaron McIntyre]

Yeah.

[Todd Erzin]

Okay. And so now that we've chosen to blockade the Strait of Hormuz, that broadens the scope then of what it means that now that we're in it, we have to win it. And now, now it's not just going to be enough to say that we greatly, significantly, maybe mortally wounded the Iranian regime's military capability. But now we can't. To me, we then politically cannot go until it's pretty clear the Strait of Hormuz is open for business for virtually anybody that wants to use the top, the open water to transport goods, services, particularly petroleum, from that part of the world to the rest of it. Because if we leave without doing it politically, I think we've undermined our own messaging. And it's. And it would only be done politically out of a sign of weakness, meaning that the support here at home is just totally collapsed. We can't take on the political baggage of what it's costing us to do it anymore. And then what that message that sends to. The message that sends to other despotic regimes in the, in the going forward is just wait for the, you know, it's a reverse siege, since our mindsets are under siege. Just wait out the American people in their short attention span, all right, they'll come in, throw some bombs around, you know, play a video game for a few weeks, but then they'll just go back to being fat and lazy and complacent. And myopic. Not saying that that's who we are. That's what our enemies are going to say. They, they really won't. They really won't go the distance. All right, so just wait them out. Let them have, you know, let them, you know, play their shock and awe video games and they'll go, they'll want to go back home and get back to playing their video games in their basements, and they'll leave us alone. I think that's a message that will be sent. Let's take these things actually point by point. Disagree or agree with that?

[Aaron McIntyre]

No, I agree with that. And I would just add the fact that's why I'm concerned about Donald Trump's messaging there. I mean, he's just talking like Donald Trump, so I'm used to that. But I think I mentioned this on the roundtable in Dallas. That felt very mission accomplishy banner that in his language, all it takes is one thing to go sideways. Sideways, militarily. Terrorism through a proxy economic gas. We're just, he's got to be way more careful than he is when he's just dealing with the Democrat schmucks over here domestically, because that thing can boomerang around on you fast. And that's what I'm.

[Todd Erzin]

And if it does, it totally changes your claim of victory messaging. When you say that's why mission accomplished. For people that don't remember it because it was 20 years ago, that's George W. Bush landing on an aircraft carrier in the Middle east saying, hey, we finished the mission, but then for the next year, the whole thing devolves into an outright quagmire and becomes a Shia Muslim satellite country.

[Aaron McIntyre]

And this is why you're so profoundly right when you say we've just broadened things. It's one thing to say, yeah, we're responsible. We did this military, and maybe we had to. But it's kind of an indirect cost that gas is now up. Now you're the guy running the gas station over there in many respects, because

[Todd Erzin]

we're also saying we're in control of the strait and everything else.

[Aaron McIntyre]

And I'm not saying that we have

[Todd Erzin]

to act like we're in control.

[Aaron McIntyre]

I'm not saying that's not necessary either. But you are now obviously on the hook. And when you're just saying they're at the bottom of the sea and using jingoistic messaging like that. We saw how this worked. Mission accomplished. I mean, in many ways, the Bush administration never accomplished from that loss of trust.

[Todd Erzin]

Never did. Of course, it did not. No. Aaron, do you agree with my first point politically? Now that we're there, we have to walk out with a significant victory.

[Steve Dace]

Yeah. Marco Rubio agrees with that as well. I mean, you heard that? I think I played it in the montage earlier this week. He said, hey, we can't allow the precedent to stand, that now that we've attacked Iran, Iran gets to control and blockade the Strait of Hormuz.

[Todd Erzin]

Correct.

[Steve Dace]

That's a worse scenario, That's a worse outcome than. Than before the war even broke out.

[Todd Erzin]

I mean, I'm seeing friends of mine and people whose opinions I respect. I like, they've been guests on our show, so, I mean, obviously, we think they have significant things to say. Saying stuff like looking at the economic news, hey, it's time to come home. I get that sentiment, but I'm just telling you, if we. If we. This is why don't go in. Okay. So you don't have to have these conversations later on, but since we did, okay, we now have to have them. Right? And it's a. It's a little bit like I was somebody that was really lobbying for Alito and Thomas to retire this year so we could replace them while we could. And we had Molly Hemingway on last week talking about her new book on Alito, right. And asked her what she thought, and she goes, I completely disagree. And I said, okay, tell me why. And the reason that she gave me, you know, kicked me right in the shins and made me think, yeah, you might be right about that. Okay. She goes, because who would we replace them with?

[Aaron McIntyre]

They don't make Alitos and Thomas.

[Todd Erzin]

They're not making them anymore. I mean, Trump's had three Supreme Court justices, and the best one is the libertarian who gave us Bostock. Okay. You know, you know, training Madness, basically. He's the best judge of. He is. He is there. He is Trump's best judge. Of course, it's just been great. But, like, on 80% of things, he's like most libertarians, and 80% of things, he's 100. Right. In the other 20%, it's like, what world are you even a part of? How are you even. How are we even connected to the same ecosystem here? Right? And so her decision, her. Her mindset was, you know what? Actually, I kind of. I would much prefer to put these guys on a vitamin drip. All right, I'm paraphrasing Molly. She's more eloquent than I just put it, but she's like, I'd much rather put these two Guys on a vitamin drip, man, and just try to make sure we drain every last, you know, decibel of life force out of those two before we even contemplate who would come next. And I guess I hadn't even thought about. We don't have a next to these two guys necessarily. I'd not even thought about it. Okay. From that meta angle. And that's what I would say now. Just like what Molly did to me on. On an issue I felt very strongly about at the beginning, from the start of this year with, with our two best judge justices, is now what I would do to some of my friends who I greatly respect, saying, hey, enough. We got to pick up and go home. If we do that, people in Beijing are watching, people in Pyongyang are watching, people in Tehran are watching. And then our Arab allies, who are also, they. They're risking political capital in places like Dubai and Riyadh. They're risking political capital, too. And if we're like, hey, we need you guys to plug your noses and pretend you don't hate Israel for a few months while we get rid of your shared enemy, Iran. And then before we get rid of them, we're like, guys, the, you know, our polls in America are too bad. We got to eject. What's that do to your Arab coalition?

[Aaron McIntyre]

Right.

[Todd Erzin]

And when those guys go back now to their bases because they're dealing with some of the craziness and the radicalization that Erica Kirk's rightly concerned about in our country, they're generations into that in their country. Right, okay. And if, and if, if they go back to their people and say, well, guys, we were going to get rid of Iran, but the Americans can't cut and ran on us, how does that embody, how does that not mobilize and embolden their own radicals that they're trying to keep at bay to be a more contemporary nation? You see what I'm saying? There's a lot of. There's a. This is a hydra. It's a flowchart. There's a lot of tentacles to this, which is why I was against going in at the beginning, because I just didn't think we had the wherewithal to navigate and negotiate all those things with a myriad of our own problems. But since we're there now, we do have to consider the world that we're in, not the world that we prefer it to be. Thoughts on that.

[Aaron McIntyre]

My, My main thought is, I was just thinking about how many of our own listeners and people on the right who absolutely hate the conversation we're having because they feel like, you know, what I'm not hearing, it's like what Sarah Gonzalez was talking about last week. I'm not hearing anything about me and my problems at home here. And that's what Donald Trump is really ultimately in trouble with here. It's gas prices is a specific thing there. But broadly, people aren't feeling America first about this at all.

[Todd Erzin]

That brings me to point two. Okay. And why I think we're looking at a siege here. Hormuz is one reason why we cannot leave the Iranian regime with a significant peace. Well, we could have. We could have chosen to do that, like I just said. But, but once we, once we voiced that Hormuz is a key part of this operation, now, politically, we cannot. And so if you do that, you leave the Iranian regime with essentially its own ways of its own, its own leverage to reboot itself, and it will now go back to its people and say, see, we stare down the great Satan. Yes, they sent us their bombs and everything else, and now we didn't. Now, they didn't kill a whole bunch of members of the Iranian high command. They were martyrs for Allah. They were martyrs for Allah and they gave their lives to a noble cause. We still, we stood up to the great state and Allah delivered us, and we were left. We still have all the same leverage we had going in. We still control the most strategic straight in the world. We still do that.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Just.

[Todd Erzin]

That can't happen now, given how narrow that. I did. I did a little more research. I was asking my. I was kind of thinking myself, why didn't we just go in there and just blow that thing up? Well, doing a little more research now, and I did have to do some, you know, military research and stuff. That's kind of beyond me. So I'm trying to understand what it means. But essentially, the narrowness of the straight limits the totality of our military advantage. You see what I'm trying to say that it wouldn't. Iran doesn't have to defend the entirety of the strait at a single time. It can defend essentially just the mouth of the strait, put all of its forces there, because the narrowness of the strait makes it hard to go around them. All right? You essentially have to go through them, through the forces they have on. On Carg island in there and everything else. And there's. There's just really not a way to do this.

[Steve Dace]

About a 20 mile correct. Wide strip that they have to defend.

[Todd Erzin]

Yeah. And in the scope of a globe, it's about this, it's a, it's about this thin. Okay? So they could essentially take whatever they have left and whatever they have in that island and aim it right at the mouth of that thing. Okay. And, and, and, and create a level of damage that if we had a wider playing field, they would not be able to inflict on us. And so there is, there is a significant casualty threat by doing. Going straight in there without having it secured. Yes.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Again, this is why it's really dumb to be saying your planes can't fly and all your ships are at the bottom of the ocean, yet a guy named Steve can just do some cursory research and realize there's still some sketchy military.

[Todd Erzin]

I'm telling you guys, the regime is still alive for the reasons I'm telling you. That's all I'm telling you. I'm not telling. We haven't given, we, we've dealt them. If they believe me, if they could have wreaked a lot of havoc in response to what we've done to them, they would have done it. Okay? But I'm telling you right now why they aren't completely gone. It's the, it's. These two points are why that straight and the way it's constructed and the tactical advantage it gives an underdog like them in a showdown. Okay, and then that brings me to the third point, which is we don't want to go in with massive ground troops up against whatever's left of their national army who we still don't know where their loyalties are. And they're, and the, in the Revolutionary Guard. We know where their loyalties are. We just don't know how many of them have been killed, you know, in the collateral damage. And we don't want to have to do that. And so essentially what you're watching is a siege. We're going to blockade that straight. We're going to blockade the country Besant now saying, hey, we're going to go to Iran's partners and we're going to tariff and penalize you for funding them. We are. This is a siege strategy. We're going to essentially try to have the regime implode because in the end, it just runs out of resources. There's nothing coming in, nothing coming out. And that's essentially what I think is going on here. Thoughts? So I would, I would buckle in. I would buckle in and I would hope that with, with UAE pulling out of opec that you're watching the beginning of and I'll have more about that on the day script tomorrow. But you're watching the beginning of an alternative oil consortium cartel being emerged to at least patch things up for the time it will take to smoke out the Iranian regime. I think that we are in a full on regime change siege now. That's what I think.

[Aaron McIntyre]

This is all feeling very coveted. I'm just going to be honest.

[Todd Erzin]

Yep. You mean from two weeks to four weeks to.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Yeah.

[Todd Erzin]

And then at the end they told us, well, you know, it's not the flu. And then when the first time they gave us a map of the actual symptomatic spread, they call it the influenza like virus.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Yeah. And Trump just saying things and everybody knows that the reality is kind of different than what he's saying. This is. Yeah. Danger.

[Todd Erzin]

Well, it's where I think we are. I think that we are now in a siege strategy to remove the regime is what I think is happening. More in a moment. The steve day show. Back here on the Steve Day show powered by our friends over at Patriot Mobile. Make the switch today. You won't regret it. There were a few years where we just talked about Patriot Mobile, but I thought it's just going to be a huge hassle to switch our entire family to a new mobile phone provider. And then it was almost exactly six years ago that T Mobile sent out a mass text to all of its users saying they're going to start editing your texts during the scamdemic for quote, misinformation. And that's when I thought, all right, that's the last straw. I don't care how inconvenient it is. I'm making the switch today. And that's when I went from pitch man to customer. And you know what? They could not have made it simpler and more seamless. And I've heard this story from countless other people too over the last few years with their outstanding US Based customer service team. They'll customize it to you and or your family's needs. Keep your number, switch your number, keep your phone, upgrade your phone again. They want to be there for you. And if you're in a bad contract with a communist corporation, they've got contract buyout programs to maybe get you out of that as well. Get started today by using my first name, Steve as your promo code. You'll get started with a free month of service [e-mail] Steve that's patriot mobile.com Steve promo code Steve for a free month of service@patriot mobile.com Steve. Well, if we had John Daniel Davidson on this show, a couple of years ago for an outstanding book that he wrote called Pagan America that rocked our world at the time. And we quoted quite a bit from that book in that interview for the next several months on the show. And we've been following his work ever since as the senior editor over at the Federalist. And so it's good to have him back on the Blaze here today. John, good to see you, man. How are you?

[Steve Dace]

Hey.

[John Daniel Davidson]

Doing well. Thanks for having me.

[Todd Erzin]

John, I know you've got some strong opinions on this, and so I would be remiss if I did not get your take on where things are right now with the war in Iran. And I, I understand the thing about we should just, we got to end this and come home. And I'm very sympathetic to it. But I'm also now concerned that if we leave Iran with control of the Strait and we leave that, then we leave the regime the means by which to reboot themselves, and then we kind of send a message to enemies around the world that we're not really committed. We'll kind of go. And then the minute it, you know, the politically gets difficult, we'll kind of cut and run. And so I'm torn because the worry about this expanding is why I was not enthusiastically for it to begin with.

[John Daniel Davidson]

Yeah.

[Todd Erzin]

But now that we're here, I kind of feel like we have to get a decisive victory. Otherwise, it looks like we took on all this political capital for nothing. What do you think?

[John Daniel Davidson]

Yeah, there are no good options, I think. And unfortunately, you know, you're. We're in a situation, as you said, there's sort of a sunk cost here. But you also have a sunk cost fallacy. Right. I think the main problem is the problem that we had before the war started, which is that we don't have. The Trump administration does not have a clear theory of victory. In other words, they don't exactly have. They have not been able to articulate in a consistent way what the goal of the war is, what the end state is that they would like to see. It keeps shifting from regime change. In the early days, Trump telling the Iranian people to rise up, then telling them not to rise up. Then it was about nuclear weapons and nuclear materials and the nuclear program. Now it looks like maybe they're going to keep their nuclear materials.

[Aaron McIntyre]

And.

[John Daniel Davidson]

And then now the Strait of Hormuz is a war aim, apparently. But that was not part of the justification at the beginning because the Trump administration didn't think that Iran would close the Strait of Hormuz, didn't think maybe it even had the capability. And so I think part of the frustration for the American people and why the war is increasingly unpopular as time goes by is that nobody in the administration has been able to articulate a clear theory of victory and a plausible path to get there. We're not really sure what it is that we're doing over there and how we're going to get to a state that we might consider peace or a victory right now. And I think a lot of people don't quite realize this. As things stand right now, we are losing the war. If we stopped today, we would have lost the war. The regime is intact. They now control the Strait of Hormuz, which they didn't before the war. And we haven't achieved anything like a plausible victory. And so I don't have a good strategy of my own. I think that we just are faced with a set of very bad options in Iran right now.

[Todd Erzin]

One more follow up on this, and we're going to discuss this more next hour or two with Theology Thursday. So I don't want to get into this angle of it right now. As you know, there's a lot of debate happening on our side right now in terms of our relationship with Israel, how that maybe has impacted this war and everything else. But there's another angle to this that I don't think is being discussed enough by really anybody, including our own side, and that is the Arab angle to this. Okay. And I pointed out a few minutes ago that there's a lot of Arab countries that also do not want the Iranian regime to continue to exist on the Earth and have been very friendly, if tolerant to friendly to our efforts here. And so if you are in Riyadh, if you're in Dubai, you're risking your political capital, too, as being, you know, with your own crazies at home, looking like you're on the same side of Israel up against another Muslim country. It doesn't help the Arab coalition that Trump has put together, which is the most significant Arab coalition we've ever seen in American history. I'm concerned that if those, if those Arab countries stick their necks out for maybe we don't want forever war with Israel anymore. And maybe there's a way we can all, as Todd likes to say, be groovy together. And then we kind of just kind of bolt because our polling numbers are bad and they're going to go back to the back home, you know, that young, that young crown prince there in Saudi Arabia who's our best friend right now. All right. And buying up all our sports leagues. He still has Wahhabi schools in his own country. And they're going to look at him and say, so you went over there and befriended Israel and the, the great and the little Satan, for what? For the, for nothing. You came back home with nothing. All right. I mean, you see what I think there's political calculations on the US Arab side of this that does not get talked about really at all because of the whole Israel controversy that I think we have to consider too. We cannot just have the Arab allies that are sticking their, you know, what's out for us right now, okay, and aligning with us publicly and then just end them with. And by the way, now you guys have to negotiate now. Now you have to pay the jizzy to your Iran for the straight of Hormuz. We can't do that to those guys either, regardless of what you think of Israel.

[John Daniel Davidson]

Yeah, no, I, you're right. And this isn't as big of a subject of the discourse here in the United States or partly because there's not the Zionist element, the Christian Zionist element. You know, that's a big part of the discussion right now. But you bring up a good point, which is that, you know, from the Arab allies perspective, this war has exposed a lot of things as maybe not true that we all thought were true before for, for them and also for us. For example, those bases, those U.S. bases. The deal was let us put U.S. military bases in your country and in exchange you'll be protected. Well, that has turned out not to be the case. We can't actually protect those countries from missile strikes from Iran. And also we can't really protect our own bases. Last week, or maybe it was earlier this week, NBC News came out with a story about how the initial, in the initial days of the war, the Iranian missile strikes on US Military bases were far more extensive than anybody thought. Fixed wing Iranian aircraft and F5, which is a warplane from the 1950s, got through and made strikes on the US Air Base in Kuwait with extensive air defenses, got through our air defenses and caused massive damage to that base and to a bunch of other bases. And so the whole narrative, I think, is up for grabs in the Middle East. Why do we have bases there if we can't protect them? Why do they allow us to have bases there? What, what, what is in it for them? And why are we investing so much of American taxpayer dollars in this part of the world if, as Trump says, we don't need their oil, we're energy independent, we're a net exporter. I think these are all things that we're going to have to be discussing and adjudicating here at home to really find out and hold Trump's feet to the fire about what is the America first agenda in the Middle east and why exactly are we investing so much in this war against Iran? I don't think there's any. We've had any good answers to those questions yet, and I would like some.

[Todd Erzin]

All right, let's get a couple of other topics we wanted to address with you. The president's comments that he made when hosting the King of England a couple of days ago, talking about our heritage and I that caught you and several other people's eye. Explain why.

[John Daniel Davidson]

Yeah, because this feeds into a discussion that's been ongoing that's really a very important discussion. It's the discussion at the heart of our immigration debate. Our immigration debate is not really about immigration. It's about identity. It's about what American identity is. Are we a nation of are we a people and a nation? Or is America an idea that anyone from any part of the world can subscribe to and become American simply by moving here and filling out the paperwork and following our laws? Does is that what makes an American, or is it something else? And Trump spoke to this when he hosted the King of England the other day at the White House. And I thought it was very well put, what he was saying. He spoke to our shared heritage, our English and Christian patrimony as Americans. You do not get America without England. And a lot of people don't want to hear that, especially on the left. You know, multiculturalists, globalists don't want to hear that. They think it's racist to say that. It's actually just historically accurate, and it's currently culturally accurate, too. The hallmarks of American society and culture and heritage are are all English. Our institutions are English. Our way of thinking about governance and society and our relationship to one another, our obligations to God and to the country, all derived from England. And so I think this is a discussion that's going to become more important as time goes by, as we deal with mass immigration, legal and illegal, we're going to have to really have a serious debate about what does it mean to be an American and what makes an American and who really can become an American. Can anybody become an American? I think these are important questions that we've neglected for too long.

[Todd Erzin]

Let's then try to see if we can preemptively answer a challenge that perspective will face in the public Square. So I look at my own life on one side of my family, I've got family that goes all the way back to the beginning of this, of the thirteen colonies. But then on my biological father's side, a lot of them were Italian Sicilian immigrants that came here during the last mass migration at the turn of the 20th century. Okay, so when we say things like that, they're going to say, well, why? Well, we took a bunch of immigrants from Ireland, you know, from Scotland, from Italy at the turn of the 20th century. And that didn't undo America. And in fact, those generations went on and saved us from the Great Depression and from, from, you know, from Hitler. They were the greatest generation. They were either the ones that immigrated or the children of those that did. They were their greatest generation. So what's different about them than and who we are as a people compared to back then than taking mass immigration from the third World? Okay, and given who the people we are now, what's the answer to that?

[John Daniel Davidson]

All right, so without getting into some of the assumptions that were baked into what you just said about the greatest generation and saving us From World War II and all that, you know, the mass immigration from Ireland and Italy was not an unmitigated good in this country. It's what gave us the mob. Right? We didn't, didn't have that in the same way before that mass immigration. We also completely shut down immigration in 1926 for 40 years to assimilate those that, that second wave, that late 19th century wave that came in. And so there was a very, very concerted, popular, bipartisan effort to basically put a moratorium on immigration beginning in the 1920s that allowed those Irish and Italian immigrants to fully assimilate to American life. But I'll say this more without getting into all that more broadly, the difference between third world immigrants and earlier waves of European immigrants is really the core difference is that the European immigrants were part of a common Christian civilization that all European countries shared, a thousand year old Christendom that formed those societies and those peoples. And so that when they came here, there was a cultural nearness, there was a cultural commonality. It's a lot easier for, you know, Presbyterian Dutchman to assimilate to American, the American way of life than it is for, you know, Islamic or Somalian, you know, Berbers or voodoo practicing South Africans. Right? It's simply because of that common, you know, culture. It comes from the word cult. Right. Culture is the outgrowth of religious beliefs and practices. And so the common Christian religion of Europe made mass Immigration from that continent possible in a way not without problems. As I said, there still had to be assimilation, but it made it possible for them to become fully American and assimilate to our English Christian culture. And I'm sorry if that offends people, but that's simply the truth.

[Todd Erzin]

That is the answer. But. But we're gonna have to be prepared to give that answer to make the case you want to make, because that's going to be the challenge. Right?

[John Daniel Davidson]

That's right.

[Todd Erzin]

Good to see you, John. Thank you for joining us again, brother. God bless.

[John Daniel Davidson]

Thank you.

[Todd Erzin]

You bet. Gentlemen, what do you think?

[Aaron McIntyre]

Well, he's absolutely right. Reverse the conversation. The second thing first, because we need to be clear, very clear in ways that now make us even uncomfortable on much of the. Right. Because now Jesus is a nice guy and our duty to one another is just to be comfortable until we get to the core of that word. It's so important. Cult. And the nature of who we are as our people, our identity is right there. Then go to the first thing we talked about. Iran. If we're wrong on that part, we're going to be a much harder time to tether ourselves to what our true meaning and purpose is in Iran and all other manner of things. That's really one of the main reasons John says we are vacillating Iran. What is our purpose here? What is our language and express? Explaining to the American people why this matters to you? It's because we are very unclear of who we are in our cult.

[Steve Dace]

That's kind of a problem. And it's exacerbated when, you know, as you were talking about earlier, Todd, let's just say everything has gone peachy keen. Let's just say everything has just gone swimmingly, just according to plan. And this is all part of the plan. When it comes to Iran, you're still left with the problem that the average American person I just heard overheard in the gas station this morning getting my coffee. People complaining about $3.99 gasoline here and attributing it to what? Attributing it to what? The war. They know exactly what's up. So even if this thing had gone swimmingly, we were planning on higher gas prices, higher oil prices. We anticipated the Strait of Hormuz people. Still, people still take this as nobody really cares about me. So what's the point of engaging at all? That's the average person, not the commie. The American communist is going to be max lit all the time until they're defeated, until that ideology is ground to a dust. So that's kind of where we are right now. You know, Secretary of Defense or Secretary of War Pete Hegseth talked about yesterday, one of the congressmen, you know, maybe rightfully hitting him, saying, you know, you're attributing, you're calling this affair in Iran a quagmire, and that does no service to the service members who have, who have served admirably for just two months. We're two months into this and you're calling this a quagmire. Well, maybe abroad, that's not a fair description yet of the war in Iran. It's maybe starting to creep towards that. But at home, domestically, it does kind of feel like a quagmire on a number of fronts. Not every front. We just talked about some good news yesterday. But on a number of fronts, it still feels like a quagmire, at least messaging to the American people that, hey, we're working for you.

[Todd Erzin]

When we come back, Theology Thursday, we're gonna look at the third leg of our Orthodoxy coalition here, the Orthodox Church church and one of its key, one of its key influencers. We're going to discuss that next hour here on Theology Thursday. Don't miss it next. All right, back here live and on demand on Blaze tv, radio and podcast. I am Steve Dace. He's Todderson. And he's Aaron McIntyre. And you can let us know what you think about what we think via the stevedace.com inbox by emailing the show. Steve dace.com that's D E A C E like us on Facebook, Me, we and Gab. You can follow us at Steve Day show on X Instagram and Tick Tock. You can also subscribe to our YouTube channel at Day show on YouTube. That's @Dace show on YouTube. And then finally, if you would not mind, if you love the podcast version, we love you back. Thank you for loving us and love us enough to click one more button. If you haven't yet, hit that subscribe button on your podcast platform, unless it's Apple itunes. In that case, hit the follow button and that way you're going to know for sure that you never miss an episode in your feed. And we love that. So thank you. Tens of thousands of you have left us five star reviews on your podcast platforms. We love all of those as well. And we would love it if you would add yours today, too. And we love our friends over at Angel Studios. They had an incredible year. Last year, three of my top 10 films of the year were Angel Studios films now, hey, I don't just give blanket approval. A blanket of angel movies. I did not care for Caprini as a movie. I thought it was very well made. But I definitely got some feminist undertones watching that film. It just felt like every, every male was terrible. Okay. But I do love Animal Farm. It's one of my all time favorite stories. Got a note yesterday from a dad who, hey, I'm coming up with a summer reading list for my 15 year old son. What do you recommend? Could you give me two or three books? One of the books I gave him was Animal Farm. I used to read it every single year. It's a tremendous work. It's one of the greatest English speaking works, I think of the last 200 years of Western civilization. Now, I know there's a lot of controversy about this, even though a lot of people haven't actually seen the movie yet because of who the cast is and what the cast is saying. It could turn out to be true that, that Angel Studios got completely co opt and worked over here that that's possible. I mean, we've, we've all been disappointed a time or two in the, in the last few years, correct?

[Aaron McIntyre]

A couple of times.

[Todd Erzin]

I'm sure I disappointed a bunch of you just last hour, in fact. Gonna disappoint you if we're about to embark on Theology Thursday. I can promise we're gonna disappoint a few more. We've also though, seen a lot of these lefties in Hollywood way overselling how left wing their content is. So they can kind of try to have it both ways, right? They can get the communists on blue sky and threads, all right, to fawn over them while also, you know, collecting money at the box office from people like us. We've seen a little bit of that too. Have we not?

[Aaron McIntyre]

Sure.

[Todd Erzin]

If I had to guess, I think we're seeing that now. But hey, I'm gonna go see this movie this weekend if I can make the schedule work and tell you for myself. All right. And I can promise you, as much as I love Angel, I mean, if, if they, if they essentially, you know, assume the position for the spirit of the age, I'll tell you on Monday, I'll tell you, or whenever it is that I see the film, I promise you I'll tell you, I just, I'll be very surprised if that's actually true. All right, so get your tickets today. It opens in theaters tomorrow, May 1st. All right. Angel.com Animal Farm that's Angel.com Animal Farm recommended for ages 11 and up. Angel.com Animal Farm. Okay, theology Thursday, you know, we have. It dawned on me after I saw this clip last week and I said, hey, we're gonna do this for Theology Thursday.

[Steve Dace]

And I thought, am I supposed to have a clip here?

[Todd Erzin]

Yeah, I thought I sent it to you in the email, didn't I?

[Steve Dace]

Let me see.

[Todd Erzin]

Yeah, it's in there. Yeah, that's great. Heads up, folks. Yes, incoming.

[Steve Dace]

Glad I said it now instead of. And now listen to this.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Yeah.

[Todd Erzin]

Yes. Yes. We've never done anything on the Orthodox Church, I don't think, like, in the history of the show. Like, I don't even think as a local show I got into it that much. Not really sure why. It's a relatively small community. Right. There's about 2 million Orthodox Christians in America, and to put that in perspective, there's twice as many Jehovah's Witnesses, and that's a cult. Okay. There's about four times more Jews. So it's a very small population of people here in the United States. But we've always talked about the small o Orthodox coalition that we have in Western Civ. And they are a part of it. Okay. They're the smallest part, but they are a part of it nevertheless. So I saw this clip that we'll play here for you in a little while. Trending on online. Last week I looked up the individual. I did not previously know him because again, I don't run in those kinds of circles. And I looked him up and saw he has a pretty widespread within Orthodox circles following. I'd kind of compare him, like I said at the top of the show, Father Mike Schmitz, who's kind of dominating the religion category podcast rankings all over the country for the. And he's a Catholic. He's kind of the Orthodox version of that. Josh Howerton is kind of a real hot name right now in evangelical influencer and podcast ratings. So this guy, Father, actually arch priest, is the official name Joseph Trenum would. Would fit into that category because the Orthodox Church is way smaller. His audiences are nowhere near where Father Schmitz is or Josh Howerton's are. But, you know, relative to the population size of that of that sect, he is an influencer that is extremely well known. But I thought before we got to him in his comments, I thought maybe we should address just as a. This is just very general. Right? So what are some of the differences here within our Orthodox coalition? And by now you guys should at least be well versed enough in the differences between Catholics and Protestants to be dangerous because it gets discussed quite often on this show with Todd being a Catholic and Todd and I and Aaron and I being evangelicals. So just a very general overview. All right, and what are the differences here between these various sects? Okay. The. One of the biggest differences, and I would call it more of a nuance than a difference, because all three are trinitarian. All three believe that Jesus is God. All right, How do I make this as simple as possible? The. The Orthodox Church looks at language that Christ uses in the New Testament like, you know, I can only do the will of the Father who sent me. Okay. And while they believe that in terms of essence and substance, all three persons of the Trinity are of equal power and fully God, they also believe that there is a hierarchy within the Trinity and that the Father sits as the. As the. As the head in terms of. Of authority within the Trinity. And they would take the words of Christ right. Right out of the Scriptures where he talks about submitting to the will of his Father as evidence for that. All right, so there's a, There's. There's a nuance there in terms of what the Orthodox Church teaches about the Trinity compared to what Catholics and Protestants teach. And their views are almost identical, but it doesn't differ in terms of the divinity of Christ and that God exists in three persons. Did you guys know that at all? How much have you guys studied the Orthodox Church at all?

[Aaron McIntyre]

Very little. About the same.

[Todd Erzin]

About the same.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Okay. I know the gist.

[Todd Erzin]

Okay. On authority. So Protestants are sola script. Scriptura. That doesn't mean solo, doesn't mean that the Scripture is the. Is the only authority that matters, but that it is the ultimate authority. Scripture alone is the ultimate authority.

[Steve Dace]

We're good.

[Todd Erzin]

All right. You guys know that Catholics, you guys believe that Scripture, along with sacred tradition in the magisterium, so essentially, rightly divided and contexted through those two things, is the ultimate authorities, which you guys think, right? Orthodox people agree with you guys. They just have their own different church authority. All right, so they would look at holy tradition as well, that they consider to be sacred patristic writings of the church fathers. And because they're separated from Rome, they don't go by your papal magisterium. They have their own tradition structure. All right? Church structures are different. I don't think most of you guys would. Would care about any of that. In terms of authority, in terms of the. The papacy. Protestants reject the papacy outright as an office, don't believe it to be biblical or to have a biblical foundation. Specifically Catholics, of course, view that view that apostolic secession going back to St. Peter. They believe in apostolic succession within the Orthodox Church as well as. But they reject the universal jurisdiction and infallibility of the Pope of Rome. And they have for about what now? 2,000 years, essentially, or about a thousand years. I'm sorry, bad math. Once we get past one plus one equals two, apparently the math is difficult for me. Yes. I mean, 1,000 minus 2,000 be 1,000, Stephen, not 2,000. Thank you, Todd. Yep. Okay. They. Well, and because of their view of the Trinity, okay. They believe that the Son proceeds from the Father as the. And. And. And that the Holy Spirit, what Catholics and Protestants believe is the Holy Spirit descends from the Father and the Son. And, and so this is why sometimes particular. I don't know how, if you guys feel as strongly about it in some Protestant circles, like a few years ago, Hank Hanegraaff used to be the Bible answer man and had a very popular show. And he took over for Walter Martin, one of the great Protestant apologists of the 20th century. It was the original Bible answer man. And then he converted to the Orthodox Church. And there was some controversy about that because some Protestant denominations believe, because they believe in this line of ascension within the Trinity, that they really aren't trinitarian and reject the actual Trinity. And so Hank Hanegraaff kind of got taken off a lot of evangelical radio waves across the country once he went to the Eastern Orthodox Church because it was causing some controversy within Protestantism.

[Aaron McIntyre]

That's one of the final straws that broke the camel's back is the. It's called the filial correct controversy.

[Todd Erzin]

Yep. Yeah, I was going to use that term, and then I thought it's going to be kind of really technical. So I thought I'd maybe try to explain it as elementary as I possibly could. And given the fact that I couldn't just add one plus one a second ago, I think this was pretty elementary, don't you? Right. And then when it comes to salvation, their views would look very similar to Catholics. All right. That it takes faith plus works. They would view works as a lifelong form of transformation or kind of what the great. Well, I wouldn't. I don't know if he's great. The theologian Eugene Peterson, who wrote the Message, he did give maybe the greatest definition of discipleship I've ever heard, which is long obedience in the same direction. And that's kind of how the Orthodox Church views it, that through works and sacraments similar to the Catholic liturgy. But you Demonstrate this over a long lifetime of consistent devotion. Okay. And of course Catholic Protestants believe that justification, once you are saved, you are justified by faith. And then the works that you will do will proceed for from that justification and salvation, they do not lead to it, but proceed from it. Right. Okay. So those are. When it comes to the Eucharist, they don't believe in transubstantiation that you guys do. They think it's, it's, it's a mystery whether we're really truly taking part in the literal substance of Christ. Okay. They would call it a mystery. So they have some nuances and delineations there. They agree with the Catholics that there should be more Old Testament books than the Protestant canon has. And then that's about it. That's about it. So for the most part, except for the line of ascension within the Trinity, we're really talking about variations of themes within these structures of these three houses of Orthodoxy. And then the one that has the potential. I'm sure Todd, as a Catholic would view their views on the Eucharist is a substantial difference and that's fair. The one that they would differ with Catholics and Protestants on. And we could then argue to what degree does this difference matter? Is the filiac which you talked about. All right, is there a line of secession or ascension within the Trinity or are they all three co, equal persons and God simultaneously? Any thoughts on that before we move on? Or questions or comments or insults?

[Aaron McIntyre]

Well, I'm certain I'm going to get. Todd, why didn't you push back on this or this or this? That's in the broad that is getting us to where we need to go to what we plan on doing next. Also remember, within the Orthodox Church there are multiple houses that may or may not bend what Steve said closer to what you think are further away. So I'm just. What Steve did there in the round

[Todd Erzin]

is trying to make this as accessible in general as much as I can. And also I'm trying to play referee and be as fair as I possibly can as well.

[Aaron McIntyre]

I mean, for the Catholic Eucharist we refer in the Mass, it's the mystery of faith. So that language is there too. I don't know all the particular bells and whistles of Greek Orthodox eucharistic professions, but I do know that unlike we can't, I can't go as a Catholic, I can't go to communion and participate in a communion ritual in any Protestant church. That's not a non negotiable from the Catholic point of view. Going to the Greek side, but to the Orthodox side. But as I understand it, the other way around, the Orthodox Church is not open to it, but I don't know if that's every version of Orthodoxy. So, again, we can get into the weeds if we wanted to, but we have a particular clip we're going to play in the round. What Steve did was more than fair.

[Todd Erzin]

Aaron, you have any thoughts? Thank you, Todd.

[Steve Dace]

We're just, we're kind of trying to pick up, in sports terms, trying to pick up a new offense to some degree here.

[Todd Erzin]

Yes.

[Steve Dace]

Trying to understand some of the concepts imperfectly from a preconceived notion standpoint, from the various perspectives on this show.

[Todd Erzin]

And that's why even my attempts to be as broad and general and fair as I possibly could, I cannot avoid my own biases. And I'm sure that, I'm sure that if there are any Orthodox listeners, they bristle at me describing it as a line of ascension within the Trinity. I'm just not sure how else to describe an authority structure. I'm sure that there is a. They have their own way of describing it. That's, that's, that makes sense. And, and, and as to why they have the convictions on this that they do, but that's the best that I could come up with because, Aaron, you're right. That's a good analogy. We're learning a new offense here and trying to pick up the terminology on the fly. Fair. Yeah. All right. I also think I referred to Father Josiah Trenum as Joseph earlier, so forgive me for that. It's Josiah Trenum, actually. So Father Josiah Trenum was originally a Presbyterian minister and then ultimately flipped over to the Orthodox church. He runs St. Andrew's Orthodox Church. It's in, it's in California, I believe. Yeah, yeah. Riverside, California. And he's been there for many, many years. And he has a very substantive following within the Orthodox circles. Some of you probably heard his name for the first time. Oh, it was about two weeks ago that Tucker Carlson had him on his show as a theologian. And then some of you may have heard his name. If that wasn't it, may have heard his name for the first time when the clip you're about to watch was circulated widely by Russia Today. Watch this.

[Scott Besant]

We don't follow the Old Testament at all. The Old Testament is our root. The Old Testament is a preparation for the New Testament. But Christians read the Old Testament through the New Testament because everything in the Old Testament was about Jesus Christ. So for a Christian, we understand the Old Testament to be For a. An earlier, what St. Paul would call a childish age, an age in which the, the human being had not yet been redeemed, God had not yet become man, sin had not yet been atoned for, and the Holy Spirit had not been given to believers until the day of Pentecost. Once that happens, a much higher way of life, the Christian way of life, is established as normative. So it would make no sense at all for us to follow the Old Testament.

[Todd Erzin]

All right, so the reason why this caught my eye, and I thought, if we're going to discuss this, then let's discuss the Orthodox Church broadly. So we're not just picking on Father, you know, Trenum out of context. Okay. And we've never really discussed the Orthodox Church all that much and its nuances and differences with Catholicism and Protestantism. So this is an excellent opportunity to do so, so that we can look at everybody and their claims here in the fullest context and the fairest context we possibly can. All right, so there's a few things about this I have jotted down I want us to discuss. But before I prejudice the conversation by introducing those questions, I just want to simply ask Todd and Aaron your reaction to what you just saw.

[Aaron McIntyre]

My reaction is so understated that I really can't wait to see what you have to say about this, because I am taking what he said at face value. I don't know if there's. This is a cut and paste job that this was attached to something he said beforehand or after and we haven't seen it. I know, but, you know, if it's you being used by Russia today, who knows? Who knows? But I don't, I don't. This. Nothing about this is remotely controversial from a Catholic perspective. I mean, I'm speaking charitably. He could mean follow in a different way, but we follow Jesus in terms of following action. We do not follow the Old Testament. The Old Testament is used as a route to inform us of what Jesus ultimately fulfilled.

[Todd Erzin]

So it sounds like. So pardon me, were you finished?

[Aaron McIntyre]

I'm sorry, but I don't like. I don't find him to be saying anything controversial.

[Steve Dace]

See, I kind of had the same reaction from a certain point of view. Yet we don't follow every jot and tittle of the Old Testament because it is pointing to Jesus, whom we do follow. So therefore you are kind of following from a certain point of view. You understand what he's saying. It's kind of semantic. But to say we don't follow the Old Testament because the Old Testament is about Jesus, but we do follow Jesus. That's kind of. Well, you kind of do from a certain standpoint. You see what I'm saying? So it's kind of a semantic type of thing.

[Todd Erzin]

All right, I want to come back to that. But first, Aaron, I'm going to come back to you because our friends at Chef IQ are back. Just used it this week. And I know. I mean, just like I gave Todd the, you know, the water filtration product. I gave you the Chef IQ about a year ago, and you've been raving about it ever since. So tell us how it went.

[Steve Dace]

I know Todd loves this commentary, because if there's one thing that Todd loves, it's his heated seats in his car. You know, once Todd got the heated seats, he's never going to go back. No, but it's kind of like the heated seats in your car. You never think that you're going to need them until you get a car with heated seats, and then you're not going to go back to a car without heated seats. It's kind of like this. I mean, the Chef IQ without the wires that get all dirty and you can never clean them up. You're never going to go back to an old typical Bluetooth thermometer for your long smokes, your long cooks. You just plug it in, connect it to the app, and bada bing, bada boom, you've got a fresh display there. And if you let it go for a few minutes as well, you let it go, it'll kind of give you an indication of when you should expect your meat. Whatever you're cooking, whatever you're smoking to be done as well. Very handy. You're never going to go back to the old style thermometers again.

[Todd Erzin]

So they've got a Mother's Day sale going on right now, folks. Perfect time to get one, because Mother's Day, kind of the beginning of grilling season for a lot of us, particularly in the northern climates. And maybe you want to give mom a great gift for when she cooks you a meal and, you know, most the rest of the year. And you want to give her a great gift when you're going to cook her that meal on the grill on Mother's Day. Perfect meat. All right, 30 off right now with the promo code [e-mail] promo code steve for 30% off. Chef iq. Chef iq.com promo code stevefor 30% off. All right, let's make a. Let's make a large, larger point here for just a second in that the two of you. One is a Protestant, one is it a Catholic? Did not have a fundamental. Aaron, you said there's some nuanced things, and we're going to get into some of those nuanced things here in a second. But fundamentally, just at face value, the two of you did not have. None of your theological bells and whistles went off as Christians at what you just heard. Right?

[Aaron McIntyre]

Yeah. And to make the point, I should have been very explicit. There's nothing that makes me think of Marcione in terms of what he said.

[Todd Erzin]

Well, see, that's, that's, that's what we're gonna. Yeah, you're, you're, you're, you turned. You turned a page or two ahead of me in the book, but that's where. That's the conversation we're gonna have. Correct. All right, go ahead, Aaron. What were you gonna say?

[Steve Dace]

Same thing. So if you just cut it off after. We do not follow the Old Testament at all. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

[Todd Erzin]

Agreed.

[Steve Dace]

If he followed up with, with kind of what he did, I wouldn't have said it the same way, but what he did, I would need to know more to be a little bit more concerned.

[Todd Erzin]

Okay. And so this is a key lesson for everybody in the audience before we get now into some of the more nuanced theological questions that maybe puts more into context what we think he did or did not mean. This clip was circulated by Russia Today. And so this is a, this is a thing where we're just living in an era. We have. I have no idea what Russia Today's motivations were in circulating this clip. No clue. On a. On a daily basis, I'm giving, I'm going to guess, my own personal motivations. In Russia today's Do not align on a. At a consistent rate. Fair. Probably. Okay. And so we're. You're just going to have to learn in this day and age to take things based on the substance of the thing more than the thing it's associated with. Let me say that again. You're just going to have to learn to take things based on the substance of the thing more so than the thing it's associated with. So if, if, if, if Doug Wilson had said this exact word for word, if Doug Wilson had said this exact word for word, and it was a clip spread by TPUSA Faith. I'm going to tell you right now, we're probably not even talking about this, probably not even discussing it, because I'm the host of the show and I'm fully aware I've known Doug Wilson for years. I'm fully aware of the. Of the context of what he means when he says this. And it's being circulated by an organization tpusa, Faith Helm, by one of my best buddies on the planet right now in Lucas Miles. So I know what he's about. You see what I'm saying? So I, So I get the context of it. But when it's circulated by Russia Today, there's going to be. And it's not that Russia Today is not necessarily earned some of this. Okay. But there's going to be an instant. Well, what's this really mean? All right? And it's. It. Well, Steve, you know who else wants to be in Iran forever? Lindsey Graham. I mean, dude, who's made more fun of Lindsey Graham in the last 10 years than I have, is that literally anybody has.

[Aaron McIntyre]

There's no.

[Todd Erzin]

I mean, if there's.

[Aaron McIntyre]

There's no possibility.

[Todd Erzin]

I mean, if. If there's anything I'm a proud trailblazer in, okay, it's outing the secretly homosexual, traitorous Lindsey Graham. Fair.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Fair.

[Todd Erzin]

I mean, I was way ahead of the curve on that one, bro. Okay? That all being said, if Lindsey Graham was like, you know, I really like mint chocolate chip ice cream, you know, I'd be like, that's one of my favorite flavors, too. You know? I mean, think you're just gonna. We're living in a world now that's way more complicated than, well, if this person's for it, then I'm automatically against it. I mean, that can be true. But. And, And, And I. I don't have a clue if Father Josiah Trenum aligned with Russia Today to circulate the clip or if they took this clip from him. I mean, he, he's not responsible for that baggage, per se, of the name Russia Today either. You see what I'm saying? So we're. You're. We're all going to have to be way more sophisticated about stuff than we. Than we ever had to be before. So let me say this again, all right? This. The. The. You're going to need to. To care much more about the substance of what's being said than the association of the person doing this that's saying it or the entity that's saying it. If Russia Today publishes pictures from Artemis and says, turns out the Earth is round, do we immediately just say, well, it must mean it's flat? Is that how we live? No, we're not. You know, we can't just be perpetual reactionaries. Now, there's a time to be a reactionary. Right. Like if Lindsey Graham does seem in favor of a prolonged military engagement, I think given his record of forever war, I'd be skeptical of that because of the context of his record. Right. But doesn't mean, though, even though you should be skeptical, does that mean he's always wrong every time, though, he'll never be right? Is that what it means? No, that's, that's. To quote Father Trenum, that's some childish thinking. And we have, we're going to have to move beyond that. And I think that's a, that's a very important point in terms of how we're going to consume content in the 21st century moving forward. Because the buzzwords are everywhere. It's why I won't answer your label question when you ask me, but I'll just say, well, what question do you want to ask me? Ask me what you think. I think theologically and literally anything, and I'll tell you if I have a position. It doesn't mean I know I don't have a position. Everything, because I don't know everything to have a position on. But I can promise you, if I have a position, I will tell you and why I have that position. But if you ask me, which camp are you in? Who do you associate with? I'm like never going to answer that question. Ask me what I think. I will tell you. Ask me who I'm with. I probably won't thoughts on that before we now get to Father Trenum's comments specifically.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Well, that's a shame that it's come to that for many people. But, you know, we are, you see what X is every day. And it's just an attempt to basically make it's. Listen, Jesus said it's going to be a narrow gate, but then he's got a lot of people that are just

[Todd Erzin]

like narrower than the straight of Hormuz, brother.

[Aaron McIntyre]

I know.

[Todd Erzin]

Yes.

[Steve Dace]

Yeah, yeah. So if anyone, I don't care if it's this guy or anybody else, gets up, records a video and says, christ is Lord, that's the video. That's the start and stop of the video. And Russia Today publishes that video, what do we say?

[Todd Erzin]

Or Al Jazeera or anybody else?

[Steve Dace]

Amen.

[Todd Erzin]

Yeah.

[Steve Dace]

If Russia Today publishes the video of the guy getting in front of the camera and saying Christ is Lord, we say amen. If it's Prussia yesterday and a guy gets in front of the camera and says Christ is Lord, we say Amen. If it's Poland tomorrow and a guy gets in front of the camera and says Christ, we say Amen. However, if a guy gets in front of the camera and says a lot more than that, Christ is Lord. Here's why I believe that we may or may not agree from a certain point of view. Kind of like what Todd and I just said. Okay, we can have that conversation. But given the source and given all of those different codicils and given all those sorts of details, you might need to have that maybe just at the back of your head going into your analysis that Russia today, a propaganda outlet, might be using this for nefarious purposes.

[Todd Erzin]

At least. At least might not be. They might not be, but they might be. Right? All right, let's get into the specifics of what he said and why it isn't or is marcionism next. The Steve Day Show. All right, Aaron, get that clip ready to go again, because I want to. To let the audience see it again now that we're to talk about it, specifically after we talk about our friends over at Jevity. And I know what you're thinking. I. I'll get to it. I'm too busy. It's too expensive. I don't know where to start. Well, Jevity is about to eliminate all of that when it comes to taking a serious look at your health and where you are. They just launched a free tier that's free so you can upload your latest blood work there that you've already had done elsewhere, and have Jevity build you a custom longevity blueprint from there. If you don't have recent labs, you can purchase a comprehensive panel right through them. It's where I got my last panel done from. I was extremely impressed. Over a hundred different markers and levels were looked at. Real stuff like inflammation, hormones, metabolic health, nutrient levels, and more. Everything now is completely a la carte. You pick the supplements that you want. You add the specialty test when you think you're ready, or maybe never. If you never are. All right? You can move at your own pace. All right, and that's. That's because that's what JEVITY stands for, right? Longevity. All right. G E V I T I is how it's spelled. G E V I T I get 20 off. If you do decide to join and take advantage of their full complement of resources there, use the code dace for 20 off at jevity. @gojevity.com days that's gojevity.com day scojevity g e v I t I goevity.com days code days for 20 off. All right, here Here again, now that we've kind of, kind of given the broad strokes of the differences between the Orthodox Church and Catholics and Protestants etc. Etc. And we've seen Father Josiah Trenum's remarks on the Old Testament more broadly. Now we're going to talk about it more specifically, but let's reset them again. Here they are.

[Scott Besant]

We don't follow the Old Testament at all. The Old Testament is our root. The Old Testament is a preparation for, for the New Testament. But Christians read the Old Testament through the New Testament because everything in the Old Testament was about Jesus Christ. So for a Christian, we understand the Old Testament to be for a, an earlier, what St. Paul would call a childish age, an age in which the human being had not yet been redeemed, God had not yet become man, sin had not yet been atoned for and the whole Holy Spirit had not been given to believers until the day of Pentecost. Once that happens, a much higher way of life, the Christian way of life is established as normative. So it would make no sense at all for us to follow the Old Testament.

[Todd Erzin]

All right, so the reason why I thought we should have this conversation is because I first heard of Father Josiah Trenum when I saw a clip of him on Tucker Carlson show a couple of weeks ago. And, and I don't think, and I am, I have zero doubts, I, I from just following Tucker closely publicly and conversations I've had with him privately, I, I have zero doubts that, that, that if Tucker is not a full on Marcionite, then he is as close as you can possibly come before he get, before he gets there. And so who is Marcion? Marcion was one of the, one of the great, I would say maybe the three greatest heretics in the history of the church age. Marcion eras, Arius and Pelagius. They're not alone, there's others, but I would say they kind of are a unique place on Mount Rushmore where their names almost became adjectives. They were so resoundingly well known. And Marcion grew up, his father was a priest. He ended up, or maybe a bishop even and he ended up just rejecting orthodoxy altogether, claiming that the, the Old Testament and the, the New Testament were completely separate gods, separate religions and, and was a full fledged, maybe the most famous of all the Gnostic heretics. And I mean this, this, this spread all throughout this, this fallacy did and heresy did all throughout the Church in the early years. We talked a couple weeks ago, maybe just even last week about dialogue with Trifo as a response to Marcionism from the church. Father Justin Martyr, on one hand, he is saying to the. To Trypho, the. The. The. The Jew that he's talking to in the. In the work that. That your system has been finished. It is completed. There will. There's no more sacrifices to be made because the ultimate sacrifice has now been made through Christ. But he also then turns to Marcione, who's trying to divorce Christianity and Judaism altogether as completely holy and separately not rooted or even different religious takes, but completely different systems divorced from each other, and he basically calls them out for his heresy. Right? And I think you can see that language in all of Tucker's messaging these days. But I think it's also important that we understand that there are Christian traditions and orthodoxies that are not Marcionites, that if all you've heard is the most pro Israel theological angle, may set your bells and whistles off. And I want to make sure. Here's what I want to make sure. I want to make sure we're calling actual heretics heretics. I've got no problem calling actual heretics heretics. I think. I think I gave Tucker as much time as I possibly could, and then the last straw was the Book of Esther is actually about Persian genocide. That was my last straw. Okay? But I. I think I did everything I could to try to coax Tucker back from the abyss that he's currently, you know, belly flopping into. All right? That does not mean everybody that goes on a show is a heretic. That does not mean that even people that go on a show that aren't Zionists are automatically there because they hate Jews or anything of that nature. We're going to have to learn nuance here. Okay? The boomer era is dying out. Boomers are dying. A lot of the. And with every generation, a lot of its biases go with it. And a new generation emerges with its own biases and its own issues. All right? So the. The automatic Israel is my homeboy position that a lot of you are used to hearing is dying out from the generation that absorbed that. And we're going to have to learn how to work together, because the people who don't want to be coupled with Israel anymore but aren't anti Semites. And I think we just talked to one of them last hour in John Daniel Davidson, frankly. Okay, our Oran McIntyre would be in this group on our own network, right? We're going to have to learn how we can work together. People that, you know, still are. You know, still follow, you know, closely the works of one of my, one of my most respected men I know is Jack Hibbs. And you don't get more Christian Zionists than Jack Hibbs. Okay? So we're going to have to learn how to work together and unite together if we're going to save what's left here of Western civilization. And so we have to figure out where, where's the, where are the off ramps, where are the nuanced points here? All right, and then we have to find out are there nuanced points or are we just, you know, dressing up old heresies make sense. So here's some follow up questions. We don't follow the Old Testament that I took down from this, from his comments. All right, let's clarify some things. We don't follow the Old Testament at all. I think we would probably have to ask Father Josiah, what does follow mean? If we mean in keeping the law, then I think all three of us would wholeheartedly and vociferously agree, Correct? If that's what it means, yes. Okay. Now I don't think it means much more than that because he uses the term root and that is right out of the scriptures. If you guys watched us and listened to us during Romans. Paul makes the case in Romans 9, 11 that we are that, that Judaism is the root. He says earlier in Romans, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. All right? He says we are, we have been grafted in. That means there was already an existing rooted plant. Doesn't mean we are a separate root. We are grafted into an existing rooted plant. Plant. And we are living in an era where the vast majority of Jews have rejected Jesus as Messiah and therefore are estranged from God in an individual sense. But the Paul is also very clear that that era, that time of the Gentiles, will come to an end and there will be one last harvest of Jews that will come to recognize Christ as Messiah. And that is a view that many who were not even Christian Zionist or who hated the term or who were even opposed to dispensationalism all had because it's right out of Romans 9 through 11. So I think if Father Tranum was here, we'd have to ask him, what does follow me? And if follow means follow the laws of the Old Testament and the, and the sacrifices and the rituals of the Old Testament, then I think all three of us would agree, no, we don't have to do that anymore. That has been finished. Christ finished that work at the cross. That's what it is. Finished means, right?

[Aaron McIntyre]

Based on everything. He said, I don't have any reason to believe that. He's not referring to Ephesians 2:10 or John 12, 25, 26, where they use the words walk with, follow. And he explicitly says that means Jesus. So I just. I think whether he's Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant, I think he's merely being biblical.

[Todd Erzin]

Totally agree. Aaron, you agree with that?

[Steve Dace]

Yeah, if that's what.

[Todd Erzin]

If that's what it means.

[Steve Dace]

If that's what it means.

[Todd Erzin]

If that's what it means. Yeah. So he's not here to answer, but I would want to know, is that what it means? If it means what Tucker wants it to mean, that we are essentially divorcing the Old Testament altogether from the New Testament to the point that now you're turning the narrative of the Old Testament around. And now the Book of Esther is not about preserving the Messianic line. It's about persecuting Persians. Maybe next year at Passover, Tucker will tell us that Exodus was really about the. The, you know, a genocide of Egyptian children. It's not really about. You see what I'm saying? That's now where you're, You've. You have. What Tucker's doing is he is cutting the root off. He's cutting the root off. That's what he is doing. And that's what Marcion did.

[Aaron McIntyre]

And just to be. Since he is Orthodox and this should be the same case as Catholic, this is where both are different from Protestants. If, if some Protestant Joel Osteen or something, you know, says something, you can point out, but he's nuts, but, you know, that's his church over there, and he just opened up his own church. There should be, like with Father James Martin, there should be no heretic in the Catholic. There should be, yeah. Very immediate consequence. If he is saying something very unorthodox, heretical. There should be like, immediate.

[Todd Erzin]

Otherwise, what's the point you don't have

[Aaron McIntyre]

available to you as a protest.

[Todd Erzin]

Otherwise, what's the point of all the infrastructure that both of your sex have at that point?

[Aaron McIntyre]

He's got. He can't be. Just, just. He really shouldn't be playing Willie Neil. Which is why people like Father James Martin. But I'm not. I'm just using this to hurt myself, apparently. But, yeah, excommunicate the man if he's that off.

[Todd Erzin]

To be fair, you have a legitimate axe to grind there. Yes. All right, point two. He says we read the Old Testament with the New Testament in mind. I would wholeheartedly agree with that. I think all three of us Would. All right. Because the Old Testament is pointing towards the New Testament. Jesus says to the, says, I did not come to abolish the law, now I came to fulfill it. He says, I am the way. All right. Or the. I am. I'm the. I'm the Tanakh, I am the way, the truth and the life. That's what he meant when he said that. Okay. That I am. I am. I am. I am your scriptures, your Pentateuch, your psalms, your, your, Your prophets. I am. I am it. I am the manifestation of those things. I have been. I am what you have been waiting for. All right. And so we, we all would agree that the Old Testament is read with the New Testament or the New Testament. Yes, the Old Testament is read with a New Testament in mind. That the New Testament is the, is the Paul Harvey rest of the story of what? Everything the whole the Old Testament is pointing towards. Of course, we agree on that too, Aaron.

[Steve Dace]

Yes.

[Todd Erzin]

Okay. What do you think of his comments about a childish age? So he's, he's talking about. I think it's in First Corinthians when Paul says, when I was a child, I. I thought spoken reason as a child. And when I became a man, I set aside childish things. And if you look at the context of that epistle, he is scolding a church that is in the throes of a place called Corinth, which was kind of the bat Las Vegas Babylon of the Greco Roman world. The Corinthians were such a uniquely depraved culture that even by Greco Roman, Greco Roman standards, they viewed them as licentious. And they were even given their own, their own euphemism at the time, if you were especially depraved, it was to Corinthianize. And so of course, what better place to plant a Christian church, right? And they are struggling to not absorb the old world into the new world. Okay. And it is there to that church that Paul is saying and the Christians, hey, it's time to grow up here. Right now he's applying it more broadly to say now that we have the Holy Spirit post Pentecost, now that we can live a higher form of life. We can, we can. We, we can be holy from the inside out. Still not completely. We're still battling our own flesh, but we can achieve a level of holiness from the inside out, a level of righteousness from the inside out. Because it's no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me. The hope of glory. Right. That I can now live a higher form of obedience to God than I could in the old system before believers received the Holy Spirit. And so he's applying that more broadly in that context to the Christian life being superior to what the old way was, which is, you know, we practice a substitutionary atonement on a regular basis, as we would say, as a forerunner to the substitutionary atonement that Christ would do for us.

[Aaron McIntyre]

This context is everything when you're using the term childlike biblically, because sometimes we're commanded to be more childlike, and sometimes we're commanded to not be to the point you just made to grow up. I simply think he was talking about this in terms of developmental fulfillment. You were. Those were the adolescent, the adolescents of the faith. We are now the adults of the faith. We are the fulfillment, the completion. So I, again, I don't think he was being derogatory. I think he was just being developed doctrinally developmental.

[Todd Erzin]

I think it's also key, Aaron, to note he is talking about human beings moving from a childish age, not God. Because what you'll see, heretics say, is that God kind of evolved. And so, yeah, I know there were executions in the Old Testament, but God evolved. And we don't have to do stuff like that kind of. That kind of talk. All right? He's talking about us as a species evolving because of the Holy Spirit, not God in his own character evolving. At least that's how I took it.

[Steve Dace]

Yeah, that's kind of how I took it as well. Again, I. I would maybe phrase things slightly differently, but again, if. If it's a narrow callback or narrow couple of callbacks to what you kind of brought up with Corinthians, if it's kind of a narrow callback, but applied broadly yet shallowly. Broadly but shallowly. So a broader application of a narrow callback, but we're not going deep in terms of, hey, this means this has more substance or heft to it than what I mean to give it, then I'm fine with that as well. If. If this is his way of saying some sort of higher enlightenment or some sort of higher special knowledge. But I didn't take it to mean that way at all. So I'm kind of. With Tom.

[Todd Erzin]

I took it as a higher form of holiness is how I took it. Yes. Okay. All right. Before we get to a final verdict, then, a word about our friends over at Fast Growing Trees. They have the largest, most trusted online nursery. That's why they've got over 2 million happy customers. You can add yourself to the list it's that time of year and they've got everything that you're looking for, whether it's fruit trees, privacy trees, flowering trees, shrubs, even houseplants over the thousands of them on their online catalog. So they got everything you're looking for. And with their alive and thrive guarantee, they promise you that your plants are going to arrive to you happy and healthy and there's no green thumb required. They're on their plant experts will help you on an ongoing basis to plan your landscape, choose the right plants and and then how to care for them every single step of the way. So. So they've got great deals this time of year to begin with. But if you have never gone there before, go ahead and take another 20 off your first purchase. When you use my code Dace at checkout@fast growingtrees.com that's an additional 20 off your first purchase@fast growingtrees.com by using the code DACE. That's code dacerowingtrees.com Take another 20 off with that code. All right, so final verdict here. All right. Based on what we just ascertained, would you consider Father Josiah Trenum to be a Marcionite?

[Aaron McIntyre]

Of course not.

[Steve Dace]

No.

[Todd Erzin]

No. Then people are going to ask, well, then why did Tucker have him on? Because he clearly has a narrative right that he's trying to push. I think it's very possible Tucker Carlson doesn't know who Marcion is, if not likely. Okay. And thinks maybe, you know, he was part of the Sugar Hill Gang and you know, saying third backup at the on Rapper's Delight. Okay. And is. Is just at this point, just who. Who can tell me what I want? Ok. Who can. Who can. Who can just. I'm just booking people. I listen, I know of a couple major guests, people you would know who did not get booked on Tucker's show because they weren't willing to make the story that he wanted to follow Israel the villain for it. Know that for a fact, Jack. So it's very possible that he's just doing random acts of tell me something, make the Christian, the poor Christian Zionist stop.

[Aaron McIntyre]

My guess is that this father has obviously said something about dispensationalism, probably at his own. That's all he needed to know.

[Todd Erzin]

Yep. Yep. And just.

[Aaron McIntyre]

And by unflattering, I mean I just disagree with it, which I do too. But then there you go.

[Todd Erzin]

What you're gonna find is heretics do not go deep. Otherwise they'd be nuanced and not be heretics. Heretics always keep it shallow, go hard. Romans 8:28.