The Man Who Built Conservative Radio: Phil Boyce's Untold Story | 7/1/26

Summary

Podcast Summary: Steve Deace Show

Episode: The Man Who Built Conservative Radio: Phil Boyce’s Untold Story
Date: July 1, 2026

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Overview

This special edition of the Steve Deace Show features an extensive, candid interview with Phil Boyce, Senior Vice President for Spoken Word at Salem Media Group. While Steve Deace is typically at the helm, illness kept him sidelined for this evergreen episode, allowing Boyce to reflect on his journey from small-town radio to shaping some of the biggest modern voices in conservative talk media. Their conversation explores the past, present, and uncertain future of conservative media, from the heyday of talk radio to the challenges and schisms facing the industry today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Phil Boyce’s Origin Story and Early Career

• Started in radio at age 14 at a small AM station in Pueblo, Colorado; credits his Sunday school teacher for opening the door.
• Moved through various markets (Oklahoma City, Wichita, Denver), mostly in news capacities, before breaking into program management roles.
• Breakout opportunity: After being let go in Denver, landed a prestigious program director role at WJR in Detroit, then later at the iconic WABC in New York.
  • [06:30] Phil Boyce: "I just kept climbing the radio ladder... My real breakthrough was after they let me go in Denver."

Inside the Golden Age of Conservative Talk Radio

• Recounts managing stars like Bob Grant—balancing audience demand, corporate limits, and personal expression.
  • [13:32] "I realized... that I really can't fire a talk show host for what they think. I could only fire them for what they say."
• Details the challenging but foundational decision to fire Bob Grant after a controversial on-air comment resulted in a listener exodus and a period of ratings turmoil.
  • [19:24] “That was all it took to fire him... Bob left and immediately called my old friend Jerry Crowley... and Jerry wasted no time in hiring him.”
• Discovery and nurturing of modern talk stars:
  • Sean Hannity: Discovered and brought from Atlanta to New York; slowly promoted him from late night to drive-time.
  • Mark Levin: Identified by Boyce; started unpaid for 14 months at WABC, developed into a major syndication force.
    • [26:11] “...we ended up keeping Mark on for free for 14 months. We probably owe him a couple hundred grand in that pay.”
  • Mike Gallagher: Recruited for mornings; later became a close friend and syndicated standout.

Industry Inflection Points & Leadership Lessons

• Mentorship Over Management: Boyce sees himself as a coach/guiding force, recognizing talent (including Steve Deace) and crediting his faith for discernment and professional success.
  • [40:13] "I'm a Christian, so I look for the Lord to help me... I give God all the glory for my ability to find talk show talent and then to manage them."
• Unheralded innovators: Played a role in helping Glenn Beck break into talk radio, even if corporate politics sometimes prevented a direct hire.

Transition from Legacy Radio to Fragmented New Media

• Rush Limbaugh’s revolutionary impact: Boyce recounts hearing Rush for the first time—“he turned the AM band around”—and the effort to build a galaxy of talent.
  • [33:42] “Rush became the answer to a declining AM format. He turned the AM band around. We need another Rush right now...”
• Describes the rise of syndication, the beginnings of podcasting, and the eventual challenges posed by media fragmentation and the loss of gatekeeping.

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The Modern Landscape: Fragmentation, Feuds, and Future Uncertainty

Technological and Cultural Crossroads

• Fragmentation in media:
  • Easy to get a modestly-sized audience, hard to scale; advertisers struggling to make targeted buys.
    • [51:32] Steve Dace: "There's never been an easier time to get an audience of a hundred thousand and never been a harder time to get an audience of a million."
  • Political campaigns unsure where to spend, as the classic “mini Rush Limbaughs” on local airwaves have all but disappeared.
  • [54:09] Phil Boyce: “AM talk radio is in a bit of decline…not because people aren’t interested…but because of the competition factor. You can find almost every slice of that bread somewhere out there on the Internet.”

Dangers and Integrity in a Democratized Era

• Discussion of major podcasts selling interviews—sometimes to disinformation operatives.
  • [57:36] “You’ve got to be prepared to say no... Even though the money might be there, it’s not something that we want to do.”
• The problem of unregulated podcasts/platforms accepting money with little editorial oversight.

The Schisms and Infighting

• Candid assessment of recent right-wing media feuds (Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, Turning Point) and the dangers of internal division.
  • [54:09] “There’s problems with the infighting, there’s problems with the feud...I wish it would go away because I’m more concerned about the future of the country.”

The Rising Generation and the Risk of Nihilism

• The challenge: Addressing younger conservatives’ substantive concerns about foreign policy, faith, and America’s future—or risk losing them to more radical, nihilistic voices.
  • [66:29] Steve Dace: “We have to let the young people ask the questions...If we don’t do that...we’re just going to become an RSS feed for the nihilistic voices...”
• Boyce calls for deeper, historical, faith-based education to counteract indoctrination and instill resilience in young listeners.
  • [67:31] "We need to go back 2,000 years... We've got to do a better job bringing these young people up."

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Memorable Quotes and Moments

• On talk radio’s boundaries:
  • [13:32] "I realized...I really can't fire a talk show host for what they think. I could only fire them for what they say."
• On finding talent:
  • [40:13] "I'm a Christian, so I look for the Lord to help me...I give God all the glory for my ability to find talk show talent and then to manage them."
• On the new media landscape:
  • [54:09] "AM talk radio is in a bit of decline…not because people aren’t interested…but because of the competition factor."
  • [57:36] "We've got to be very careful when we're agreeing to do that. We've got to be very, very careful."
• On industry direction:
  • [81:03] Phil Boyce: “I don’t know.” — a frank admission of uncertainty about the future of conservative media, despite decades of leadership.
• On division vs. accountability:
  • [72:03] "To me, that's crossing the line...when people attack [Charlie's widow] for no apparent reason, I think we have to stand up and defend her."
• On hope and fear for the future:
  • [75:14] "My biggest concern is that the ability that we have to communicate with our audience will be taken away from us at some point...My biggest opportunity is to somehow coalesce and come together with a message that resonates."

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Phil’s Entry into Radio: 04:56–06:17
• WABC Era, Bob Grant Saga: 06:30–24:05
• Hannity and Levin Origins: 19:24–28:47
• Expanding Conservative Radio (Glenn Beck, Gallagher, Ben Shapiro, Ingram, Savage, etc.): 32:19–40:32
• Fragmentation, Ad Buyer Challenges, & Podcasting: 51:32–54:09
• Media Infighting & Coalition Discussion: 54:09–60:41
• Addressing Next Gen Concerns & Risk of Nihilism: 66:28–67:31
• Division vs Accountability, Industry Morality: 72:03–75:02
• Most Critical Moment—"I don't know" re: the future: 81:03
• Reaction Panel (Todd & Aaron): 79:13–91:48

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Tone & Takeaways

• The tone is reflective, conversational, and frank—by turns nostalgic (radio’s golden era), instructive (talk radio’s boundaries), and candidly concerned (industry fragmentation, audience decline, moral dilemmas).
• Phil Boyce serves both as an institutional memory and a (sometimes reluctant) prophet about the turbulence ahead.
• The episode’s value lies in its rich behind-the-scenes storytelling, the inside baseball of programming and talent discovery, and the open acknowledgment that conservative media faces a generational crossroads with no obvious roadmap.

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Closing Thoughts

In the final reaction panel, co-hosts Todd and Aaron underscore the powerful role of unheralded influencers like Boyce, noting the profound shift from legacy media gatekeeping to an atomized, unpredictable landscape. As Boyce himself admits, even industry veterans “don’t know” what comes next, making discernment, principled mentorship, and a reliance on first principles more important than ever.

The episode stands as both living history and a dispatch from the leading edge of conservative media’s search for relevance in a shifting world.

Transcript

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style, every home hey, it's Aaron for the Steve Day Show. Now is typically the time when you'd hear the montage, but no montage today, unfortunately, Steve woke up with a really serious nasty bug and he's not going to be able to come into work today or do anything, nor should he. He is down for the count. In fact, he told Todd, Todd, I want to die. Do you want any more details? No, I don't think so. But we're excited to bring you a special edition of the Steve Day show here today with Phil Boyce, vice president of Salem Media Group. He is a guy you may have never heard of before, but he has heard of and knows all of the people you've heard of before. In fact, he's found a lot of the people you've listened to every day when conservative right wing media. It's a conversation you might think sounds a little bit like inside baseball, but we're going to get into where we've come from in conservative media, where we are and maybe more interestingly where we're going. Here's our conversation with Phil Boyce, vice President for Spoken Word Salem Media Group on this special edition of the Steve Day Show.

[Steve Dace]

And greetings. Welcome to a special evergreen edition of the Steve Dase show. Which means we're not here live today, but you are getting a brand new and original episode. I'm Steve Dase alongside Todd erzin and Aaron McIntyre. You'll be hearing more from them coming up later on in the program. Now you guys know the drill of how these evergreens typically work. It gives us an opportunity to go more in depth, a longer form interview with someone that I think you're going to find very interesting or has something interesting to say. And in the case of today's guest, if you're just a casual listener of conservative or Christian content, it's likely you may not have heard of the person that we are talking to here today. But more Importantly, everybody you have heard of has heard of him, because this individual knows a lot of where the bodies are buried in the history of conservative media. He's been there, really, from the ascendancy of it, worked with many of the biggest names that you are accustomed to. And then there was a brief moment in his otherwise stellar career where he, for a limited period of time, thought I had some talent as well, quickly thought the better of it, and moved on, which, of course, he's been the better for it ever since. But it is. It is my distinct honor to bring on someone in all seriousness, certainly had a role in helping me have the success that I've been blessed to have. Phil Boyce is the senior vice president of spoken word over at Salem media. He's been the program director at legendary wabc in New York. He has been everywhere. He has seen it all. And as we kind of come to this crossroads in the history of this thing called conservative media, and where are we going in the future? Is there a schism happening? Is a new generation emerging? I thought it might be fun to take a look at the past and present as Phil has seen it firsthand. Catbird seat. But also to give us an idea of where we're heading towards the future. So, Phil, it's a pleasure to have you with us, brother. It's good to see you again. It's been a few years. How are you?

[Phil Boyce]

I am good. I'm good. And I'm down here in Florida, so the weather's nice. Yeah, we're loving it.

[Steve Dace]

So, first of all, how's the family? How's the. How's the life? How. I mean, how are you on a personal level? How are you doing before we get into all the business stuff?

[Phil Boyce]

Doing fine. I got the six brain kids in New Jersey, and they're still up there. I am actually going up there. I'm going to see them this coming weekend. I'm going to speak at the talker seminar. And then in a couple more weeks, I'm going to speak at the Barrett seminar. So two trips to the New York City area in the month of June.

[Steve Dace]

Now, what you guys need to know is I asked Phil before we started, hey, is there anything or anybody you don't want me to ask you about? He goes, nope. All right, so here we go.

[Phil Boyce]

All right, let's talk about anybody.

[Steve Dace]

All right, let's. Let's. Let's start at the beginning. All right? How did you get into this thing? How'd you get into this racket of ours?

[Phil Boyce]

Yeah, I was 14. When I got my first radio job, it was a little AM day timer called KFEL 1000 watts. My Sunday school teacher was the program director, and I asked if he would take me to the radio station because I had an interest in it. And he did. And by the end of the week, they had hired me. Now my voice hadn't changed yet, so I didn't sound like I do now. I sounded like a girl. There's actually a tape floating around somewhere of me doing a newscast, talking about the Vietnam War. That's how far, long ago it was. But it ended up being a great start to radio. I. I was growing up in Pueblo, Colorado. There were 11 radio stations and too many for a size of a hundred thousand people. So it was fairly easy to get a job and bounce around. And I did that. I bounced around, eventually became a disc jockey, drove a news car while I was still in high school. That was a little bit weird when, when you, your pager would go off and you'd actually have to leave high school, grab the newscar and go cover a news story. But it was a fascinating time, and I just love getting started in radio. Still love radio. It's. It's in my blood, and I think it always will be.

[Steve Dace]

How do you get from there to, you know, overseeing the talk radio division of one of the largest media companies in America? How do you do that? How do you get from that point to the point you're at now?

[Phil Boyce]

I just kept climbing the radio ladder. So after Pueblo, I went to Oklahoma City, was a news guy there. After there, I went to Wichita, was a news director there. Then I went to Denver, where I became news director there of the legendary kimn, and kind of got my breakthrough in a really big market and a big station. I did lots of news coverage there. They were very big on breaking news and did live coverage of various big major breaking stories, snowstorms, you name it. After that, I was able to get on in Oklahoma City in a news capacity there. So it was a fun ride. But my real breakthrough was after they let me go in Denver. And I thought I'd be probably homeless. I thought I'd never work in radio again. And I got a call from a guy named Lee Larson, who was the general manager of KOA in Denver, and it was a very big station. He had considered me to hire me as program director about a year before, so he knew that I was good material. And he had recommended me to Don Belucas, who was the president of radio at abc. And they had A program director. Opening in Detroit at WJR a big 50,000 watt flamethrower. You, you know it well. And so after I lost my job there, he recommended me for the job I got it moved my family to Detroit. It was a little bit scary. We didn't really know much about Detroit. My wife thought that as she was flying into the city with the two kids that she could see flames burning outside in downtown Detroit and probably could. But they were just. People started trash cans on fire and kept their hands warm over them. So it wasn't anything to be fearful of. But I stayed there for four years. It was a great opportunity to learn the news talk business. WJR was kind of an mor, they called it mor back then, Music of the Road or something like that. But it, we, we gradually converted the station into a news talker. At that time I had a legendary morning man, JP McCarthy, that had been there like 25 years, was number one in the market, owned the market, knew everybody. We had the Detroit Tigers, we were the flagship station for them. We had the Michigan Wolverines, we were the flagship station for them. So we just began to turn that station into something special, which it still is I think today. After that job opportunity, Don Belucas, who was in New York at that time, who had recruited me for the Detroit job, asked me if I wanted to come to New York City and take over the programming reins at wabc, which was at the time the most listened to news talk station in the nation. And I did. And we jumped in there and I had 14 good years there. And it was during that time that I had to fire Bob Grant. If you remember, he was one of legendary. He had a 7 share, which in New York City is a big number. But he was slightly racist. I don't want to say completely racist, but he would say things that you would construe as racist. And the company was not too pleased with Bob's reputation. He thought, well, I'll tell you who thought this was too much for us. It was a guy named Bob Iger. Now, Bob Iger today is the outgoing CEO of the Walt Disney Company. But at that time he was a rising star inside abc. And I remember a week after getting the WABC job, he called me up and said, I want you to come up here and meet with me and some other general managers and program directors and we're going to talk about the new mantra that I want to put in place for the news talk stations that we own. And I made the mistake when I got There. We had a nice dinner. There were about a dozen of us. I sat next to him, which meant I was the last guy as he went around the table, sort of like, you know, the scene out of the Godfather. And he got to me, and he said, you're Boyce, right? And I said, yes, sir. And he said, you're the new program director of wabc. And I said, yes, sir. And he said, you've got this guy in the afternoon, Bob Grant, who's sometimes makes racist comments. And we're not going to allow that anymore in this company. Whatever he's been doing to get us all in trouble, get himself in trouble, get you in trouble. If he. If he does that one more time, you're going to have to fire him. Now, he was my number one host, so that was a difficult thing. So I swallowed and said, yes, sir. If that's what you want, that's what we'll do. I didn't know Bob Grant at that time. I'd only been at WABC for a week, and he didn't know me. But I went back to him, sat him down, and I said, bob, you're a great host, but you've got a target on your back. And we're owned by a very big corporation, abc. And this was right before Disney had bought us. But ABC was probably much more liberal as a company than WABC was as a radio station. So I said to Bob, if you cross the line one more time, which you have been known to do, they're going to make me fire you, and I don't want to do that. So it'd be nice if we could learn to work together and learn how not to cross the line. Well, he looked at me, kind of cocked his head, kind of gave me a funny look, sideways glance, and said, well, that's fine, Phil, but where is the line? Nobody's ever even told me there was a line. I realized at that time that my predecessor, a very good program director named John Minnelli, had never really told Bob that there were limits to what he could say. And in fact, would go in there on some days and throw raw meat at him and. And say, look what they did here. Or, look what these people did here. This might be good for you to talk about. So he was encouraging Bob to take some of these horrendous positions that were getting us in trouble. So I said, look, I don't know for sure where the line is either, Bob, but we'll find it together. If you have any questions about a position you want to take run it by me and I'll give you my take on it and we'll try to stay out of trouble together. So we did that for probably six months before we had a problem. And I was starting to think that maybe we've got Bob to the place where we wanted him to be and maybe I wouldn't have to fire him. And one day there was a breaking news story, and I see Bob walking down the hallway. He had smoke pouring out of his ears. He was visibly upset, visibly angry. This was the day that the O.J. simpson verdict had come in and O.J. was found not guilty of killing Nicole Brown Simpson. And this infuriated Bob because Bob thought this was a racist decision. He thought it was. The whole trial was unfair and racist, and he was just livid. And so I called him in right minutes before he went on the air, and I said, Bob, I see you're visibly upset and you're shaken about the O.J. simpson verdict. Do you think you can go in there and hold it together? Do you think you can do a show and not say the wrong thing and get me fired and get you fired? And he said, what do you think, Phil? I'm not a professional. You think I've never been through this before? You think that I don't know how to go in there and do a show without getting us all in trouble? And I said, no, Bob, I think you can. I think you will go in there and do your best. And he did. I sat in my office. It was a 3 to 6pm show, so I usually would leave the office around 5 and catch the train out of Manhattan to get to my Jersey house. I couldn't leave. I wanted to hear every word he had to say. I sat in my office gripping the armchairs and hoping and praying that Bob could hold it together. Bob did vintage radio that day, and he was really, really good. But at the last minute, here's what he said. Sooner or later, O.J. simpson is going to get what he deserves. Now, I can't tell you what that is, but I can think it, I can hope for it, and I can pray for it. I'm Bob Grant. See you tomorrow. That was his standard sign off. I'm sitting there gripping that chair. I can't get up out of the chair. I don't think I left for another half an hour. I waited for the phone to ring. I wondered, did he just cross the line or not? And it was hard for me to know, but I was expecting to get some blowback from corporate I finally went home. I couldn't sleep that night. I came in the next morning, phone had not rung. And I called Bob in before the show, and I said, bob, you did a great show yesterday. It was vintage Bob Grant. But that thing you said at the end about O.J. getting what he deserves, I'd really rather you never repeat that, because somebody will pull that tape out and they'll hold you accountable if somebody does something to him, and you'll be blamed, and then we'll be blamed, and we don't want that. And he looked at me and he said, you know what, Phil? I think you're right. I won't say it again. I said it once. I won't repeat it. And he never did. Now I look back on that and realized after the fact that wasn't by accident what. What Bob said about Sooner or later, OJ's going to get what he deserves. Bob had prepped that. You know, a lot of good talk show hosts prep their monologues. They prep their content during the show. Very few of them prep what's going out at the end of the show. He did. He would prep that, and he was prepared to tiptoe up to the line and say, I can think it, I can hope for it, I can pray for it. But he never did say what it was, so he got away with that. And I learned from that. One of the things I learned was that I really can't fire a talk show host for what they think. I could only fire them for what they say because I don't know what they think. They may think horrible stuff that would never be allowed on the air, but if they don't say it on the air, how can I discipline them for that? So I learned that, and I still follow that mantra today, and I educate talk show host about that. Just be careful what you say. You can think it, just don't say it. Be very careful what you say. It was about six months later that I did fire Bob. And if you'd like to hear that story, I'm sure I was going to

[Steve Dace]

ask you ultimately, what happened to Bob. Yes.

[Phil Boyce]

Yeah. So Bob was doing great radio, but we had a little incident that occurred about six months after that story that I told you. The plane that was carrying Ron Brown, who was the Secretary of Commerce under the Bill Clinton administration, crashed in Bosnia. And There were about 41 State Department officials on that plane. And there was a frequent caller to Bob Show, a guy named Carl of Oyster Bay. I don't know if Carl's still around. But he would call Bob from time to time, about once a week. And he called and got in on the show. And he knew that Bob was a frequent critic of Ron Brown, who was an African American, maybe the only African American member of the Clinton Cabinet.

[Steve Dace]

So

[Phil Boyce]

Bob joked with Carl of Oyster Bay. Carl said, what do you think? Do you think anybody will survive that plane crash? And Bob said, well, there is a news report here that one person out of the 41 did survive. With my luck, it'll turn out to be Ron Brown. That was all it took to fire him. I was at a corporate conference in Key Largo, Florida. I think it was Key Largo. And they called me in, put me on a plane, sent me back and said, you job is to fire Bob Grant. And I went in there and called him in, and I was more shook up about it than he was. I mean, remember, I'm a program director under the most listened to news talk station in the nation. And Bob Grant was my number one host. And I was sent to fire him. Nobody else was with me. No other management was there. I called him into my office and I think I got cloudy. I think I teared up. Bob said, what's the matter, Phil? You look like you're about to fire me. I said, unfortunately, Bob, that is exactly what I'm here to do. I appreciate everything that you've done for us all these years, but you are now officially released from your employment here because of that comment. So Bob left and immediately called my old friend Jerry Crowley, who was the general manager of wor. And he said to Jerry, I've just been released from wabc. Would you like to hire me? And Jerry wasted no time in hiring him. And Bob took half of my listeners at WABC to wo. We were beating them at the time with about a 4 share. That's a radio term for those of you don't know. And they had a, like a two share. It reversed within a week. They had gotten the 2, 4 share. We went, dropped down to the 2 share, and I had a real mess on my hands because I had to replace a legend, a legend who our listeners adored. And it was a difficult decision, but looking back on that, it was the right thing for me. And my career is the right thing for Bob and his career. And we found a guy named Sean Hannity. Sean actually wanted to come back to New York. He was in Atlanta at the time doing afternoons, I think it was on wgst. But he grew up in Franklin Square, Long Island. He wanted to come back to New York City. And he called me immediately after Bob was fired and said, I'd like to come replace Bob Grant. Shawn was like 32. I didn't think he was quite ready for the opportunity. But looking back on it now, he obviously was. And so he, he was talking to this startup outfit called the Fox News Channel. They had not gone on the air yet. Roger Ailes was recruiting him. So he called me up a few weeks later and said, they're flying me up to New York to interview for the Fox News Channel job. And I said, let's go to lunch. And we did. Sean told me later that he thought I was going to offer him the job at that lunch, but I didn't. I said, get that job at Fox. Let them bring you up here, get started, do television, but leave in your contract a clause that lets you do a radio show for me. And I really expected him to write WABC into the contract. They didn't. But he did get in that contract a right to do radio on the side. And sure enough, after a few months, I called him. We got him to join us for 11 o' clock at night at WABC. So he would do Hannity and Combs from 9 to 10. Then he had an hour to make it over about six blocks down 6th Avenue to WABC. And he was number one, his first book, second book, third book, fourth book. And then we decided, okay, you paid your dues, you're good enough, you're ready to fight the dragon, you're ready to go into afternoon drive and take on the legendary Bob Grant. And he did that. It was January of 1998 and you know what happened that week? A big news story happened, but I doubt if you remember it. It's the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

[Steve Dace]

I was gonna say that. Yeah. That's when the scandal broke. Yeah.

[Phil Boyce]

And Sean was all over that like you wouldn't believe. It was built for him. He was great at it. He was already a heavy critic of Bill Clinton and now Clinton had done something horrible. Violated the terms of the office. And within two months the numbers came out and Sean Hannity was beating Bob Grant on wor. And within maybe a year or two, WABC returned to its rightful place as the most listened to news talk station in the nation. Number three in New York City, the number 1am in New York City, beating 1010 wins and CBS NWOR. During that time we had the Clinton impeachment trial. And Sean became friends with a guy named Mark Levin. And he would bring Mark Levin up to be on the set with him and they would rip Bill Clinton to shreds. And one day I see Mark Levin walking down the hallway with Sean Hannity, and I bring him into my office, and I said, mark, if you ever wanted to be a radio talk show host, you might have the right stuff. And he said, yeah, I've kind of thought about it, but I never thought I'd be given the opportunity. And I said, well, why don't we put you on on the weekends at wabc? We'll give you a couple of hours, you can hone your skills, you can get good at it, and you can see if this is something that you want to make a career out of. And that's what he did. We put him on Sundays, noon to 2, and he wasn't very good at first.

[Steve Dace]

Let me interject, Phil, a little bit high. What did you pay Mark from noon to 2 when he first started? What was he getting paid?

[Phil Boyce]

That's an interesting story. That's why I asked, you probably have heard this story. That's why you're asking.

[Steve Dace]

Yes.

[Phil Boyce]

So I brought in my general manager and I said his name was Tim McCarthy, good friend to this day. And I said, tim, I found the guy that I want to replace the 6pm show with. I want to add Mark Levin to the lineup. Oh, you know who he was replacing? It was Michael Savage, because Michael Savage was on WABC and got himself fired for saying something about, go choke on a sausage and die, you vile Semite. And so he got fired for that. And I wanted to put Mark Levin in this slot. So I asked my general manager, can I hire Mark Levin? And he said, how much do you want to pay him? And I said, well, I've talked to his agent. I think he wants about 100, 120,000. And he said, I've got your budget right here. You don't have that kind of money in your budget. The Savage opening was a syndicated show, so you were not paying Michael Savage anything. You don't have any money in your budget. So I said, well, what can I do? He said, well, you can hire him, but I'm not giving you any money to hire him. Now, this sounds insane that we did this, and it violated the after rules that governed New York City radio at the time. But I called Mark Levin up, and I figured he'd throw me right out the door. And I said, mark, the good news is I'm going to give you Monday through Friday, noon to 2. No, Monday through Friday, 6. 6 to 8pm But I can't pay you anything right now. They won't let me have the budget to pay you. Would you do it and learn the business? And he said he would. He said, I will do it if you'll coach me and it'll be on the great wabc and I won't be able to do this forever. So at some point, you're going to have to start paying me. Well, we ended up keeping Mark on for free for 14 months. We probably owe him a couple hundred grand in that pay. Don't tell him this, but Mark turned out to be, as you know, one of the great talk show hosts of all time. So I was blessed at WABC that I found not only Sean Hannity, but Mark Levin. I also was able to find Mike Gallagher and bring him on. Great story about Mike.

[Steve Dace]

So let's put a pin in it right there, because I'm up against a break here.

[Phil Boyce]

You got a break.

[Steve Dace]

You know how those work, brother. You know how those work.

[Phil Boyce]

Yes, yes, I know how that works.

[Todd Erzin]

Yes.

[Steve Dace]

All right, so we'll put a pin into here. See, folks, you're learning why I wanted to do this today. Because this guy has seen it all. And he's gonna have, I think, because of what he's seen and been a part of. A lot to say about the. The current dynamics that we are presently mired in and what that means moving forward. All right, so more with the one and only Phil Boyce here on a special evergreen edition of the Steve Day show here next,

[Phil Boyce]

The Stage day show.

[Aaron McIntyre]

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[Steve Dace]

Now, we got a question. Earlier this year on the show, if I do another movie, would I consider doing a documentary or another fictional film? And we're actually in the process of working on another fictional film as we speak, but we're kind of doing a documentary today on this show right now because we have the one and only Phil Boyce here with us who has. Who has seen it all from the inside here at the ascendancy, really, of conservative media. Once this guy named Rush Limbaugh broke through and blazed a trail for an industry kind of, you know, kind of. That's the big bang of this whole thing we call conservative media, Right? And so now that, you know, galaxies and solar systems are forming and rivers and tributaries are flowing here, what came next? And Phil was a big part in watching the formation, the terraforming now of putting, you know, basically the. The solar system around Rush Limbaugh's son. What was this going to look like? And so you've already heard the origins of planet Hannity and planet Levin. All right, so, Phil, I hated to interrupt you there, but you know what? A hard break is better than me. So pick it up where you left off, my friend. Go ahead.

[Phil Boyce]

Yeah, Rush was at WABC when I got there, and I'll tell you an interesting Rush story. So I was in Denver news, director of a station there, and was driving home. I did the morning shift, so it was about noon when he comes on. And they had somebody on vacation at KOA and they brought Rush in to sub for this person just to give him a taste of what the market would be like. And I was blown away. I'd never heard anybody that good. And I turned the car around, I drove back to my station, which was KHOW. KHOW went into the GM's office, and I said, turn on KOA right now. I want you to hear this guy. We had thought about turning KHOW into a talker right then. It was still playing music. And we listened to Rush for about half an hour. And he said, you know what? You're right. I'm going to find out if this guy really is available. And he called a guy who was running the company named Bill Figginshu. And Bill had been a roommate of Rush when they were both on the AM rocker in Pittsburgh, kqv. They were roommates together and Bill thought Rush was a bit of a slob. They didn't really get along well, as sometimes roommates don't.

[Steve Dace]

Yep.

[Phil Boyce]

And Bill said, absolutely not. You're not going to pick up Rush Limbaugh and build a talk station around him. Well, famous last words. I don't know where Bill is now. I don't know if. I don't think he's still working. So, Bill, if you're listening to this, I hope I told the story correctly. But Rush became the answer to a declining AM format. He turned the AM band around. We need another Rush right now because am suffering a bit now, but man, was he the answer to so many people's questions. So I was going to tell the story about Mike Gallagher. So after we fired Bob Grant, we. We had a morning guy named Lionel. We moved him into afternoons, which meant I had a morning opening. And I heard about this guy Mike Gallagher in Albany at the iheart station there, wgy. And he was just a character. He was very conservative, very good, very entertaining. So I called him out of the blue. I got his home number. His son, who was a teenager, answered. And I said, it's Phil Boyce at wabc and I want to talk to your dad. And he said, well, my dad just left on a cruise in the Caribbean, so you'll have to wait a week before you talk to him. And I said, well, just fine. When he gets back, have him call me. About a half an hour later, I get a ship to shore call from a cruise ship in the Caribbean and. And it's Mike Gallagher. And Mike said, I don't know you, Phil, but I understand you're trying to reach me. And I said, well, I am. I heard that you were a great talk show host and I'm looking for one to do mornings here. And he said, I will get my butt off this cruise ship early and fly up there to see you. And I said, no, finish your cruise when you get back, get up here, bring your wife, we'll sit down and we'll talk. And he did that. Mike today is probably my best friend. He ended up doing well in mornings for us. Then he Ended up leaving and syndicating his show with a great guy named John Dame. And they ended up building his syndicated network to about 200 stations. And then Salem bought that show. So it was years later that I joined Salem. Mike was already there. I inherited my best friend and he did. To this day I talk to him every day and I just love the guy. He's on the nine to noon day part on the Salem Eastern time on the Salem Radio Network.

[Steve Dace]

So I am, I'm remembering some of these anecdotes that you used to share with me at lunch or things of that nature when, when we were together. And I seem to remember that you then also from wabc, that you went to one of, one of the first startups of trying to do a national syndicated network outside of kind of the local media sphere called trn. Right. Talk Radio network. And I think that would have been Laura Ingram, the aforementioned Michael Savage. I think that's where you and Ben Shapiro first connected. Am I right about that?

[Phil Boyce]

You're right about all of that, yeah. I stayed at WABC for 14 years, but I could read the tea leaves. Things were changing. We were bought by another company for each. Suleiman became our CEO, who by the way, I think is a good guy. But it was time for me to move on and I was offered this job as president of programming of Talk Radio Network. They had some very good talent working for them. Laura Ingram, as you said, Michael Savage and others that were good. And Ben Shapiro was not a talk show host there. He was actually the legal guy. Ben is a brilliant lawyer. He graduated from Harvard in three years with a. A Harvard law degree. And so I got to know Ben through that arrangement. And it was years later that I was able to hire Ben. And we tried to create a morning show at KRLA in Los Angeles. When I was at Salem, we had Ben Shapiro, Brian Whitman and Alicia Krause. Alicia Krause was, oddly enough, Sean Hannity's first producer. So we had a very good time there. But at one point Ben Shapiro said to me, I really think I'm bigger than this. I don't want to be a three person show anymore. I want to have my own show. If you'll give me a show, I'll stay with Salem, but if not, I'm going to look for another opportunity. Well, that was good that he told me that I wasn't able to get him that opportunity. So he eventually left and went to work for what he built, the Daily Wire and is still doing great work today. So I've had an opportunity to work with some of the really, really good camera, and I just feel blessed. And I have to tell you this, Steve, and I was blessed to find you, and I was blessed to get you on the lineup for a while and, you know, you went off to do bigger and better things. But I don't look at myself as some guru or somebody that's got an unbelievable ability to find talent. I'm a Christian, so I look for the Lord to help me. And in every one of these situations, God has led me to one of these hosts. And I give God all the glory for my ability to find talks or talent and then to manage them. It's not enough just to find them, you have to manage them. And my joy in my career has been to put these people on the stage, nurture them, groom them, give them the guidance that they need to become superstars. And I've been very blessed that many of them had. You know, I've been able to find guys like Sebastian Gorka. He worked for me for six years. Now he's back at the White House. Someday maybe I'll get a chance to bring him back. What a wonderful, wonderful guy. Eric Metaxas, who I found. I actually heard Eric when he did the day of prayer in front of Barack Obama and he lectured Barack Obama about Obama's belief in abortion. And I thought, this guy has guts. He's got passion, he's got fire. And I put Eric on and he did really well for me for about six years. So it's, you know, finding these talents is a joy. And I've had a chance to find some really good ones, you included, Steve. So it's a pleasure to be on with you.

[Steve Dace]

Well, that's very, very kind. And one of the things, you know, there's an old saying, never meet your heroes. And in fact, I just said this to Mark Levin the other day that it blows. One of the things that I heard growing up listening to him and to Glenn and all these guys is I heard Mark Levin say one day, we're not a nation of immigrants, we're a nation of citizens. And it was one of those mind blowing moments. I've cited it on my own show and tried to give him credit for it every time for numerous occasions during the course of my career. But one of the things that I learned early on, the first local talk job I had is the guy who was kind of the dean of the station, and I was the junior upstart, he was the dean in the mornings. I was the junior upstart in the afternoons on ho. And he, and he took me side aside and said, Steve, because of how intense you're going to be on the air, it is vitally important that you treat people well off the air. That, that people see that you do care, that you're a real person, not just a construct. And that because you're going to push their limits with how you're going to do the show, they need to see a human being there when you're not on the air. And so I've taken that to heart. I've gone out of my way. I, I mean, I had a, I had three people stop me in the middle of the workout at the gym this morning. And I stopped my workout. I don't have time to stop my workout, Phil. I'm doing 19 hour days. I stopped my workout to talk, though. I've, I've, I've taken, I've taken that to heart. And I'm, I'm curious what you've seen there. Like, I, for example, I don't know Sean Hannity at all. I've, I've actually met him, I think, once. But I will tell you, his reputation in terms of how he treats people within the circles that we both run in is very, very high. I've never heard a negative word about him as a person whatsoever.

[Phil Boyce]

It should be high because Sean has that same view that you just expressed. Trust me, Sean does have a temper. Sean does have an opinion. Sean doesn't suffer fools easily, but he doesn't let you show it. And especially when he's out on a remote and I used to go with him on some of these remotes, he would be the kindest gentleman to anybody that was a stranger. When listeners would come in, he would shake every one of their hands. When he would do a book, he would sign every single book from everybody that was lined up and would not leave. He did, he cultivated that reputation very, very carefully. So, yeah, he's, he's a great guy. Just a great guy. Still a very good friend. And you mentioned Glenn Beck. It's interesting. Glenn gives me credit for getting him started into talk radio. He was at a rock station in New Haven. He was doing mornings. I think it was an AM Walker. But he deeply wanted to talk and be a talker. So the company, it was iheart, they had a talk station in their cluster. So he talked the program director into letting him have a weekend show. And he called me one day and he said, I'm doing talk on this weekend show. I was at WABC in New York, and he said, I'd really like you to listen to something that I'm doing and let me know what you think of my ability as a talk show host. I did listen to him. I thought he was extremely talented. I brought him in to do Saturday nights on wabc. I think he did three Saturday nights in a row. I really wanted to hire him, but I had a corporate executive who wasn't a fan of his and wouldn't let me hire him. So I told him, glenn, I can't hire you, but I'm going to recommend you to a few other program directors that I know well. It wasn't long after that that the legendary Jack Swanson called me, who was the program director of KGO and KSFO in San Francisco. KGO was one of the number one talk stations in the nation, and KSFO was their conservative talk version. He was looking for new talent, and I. I wrote him an email back and I said, there's this guy in New Haven. I really liked him. His name is Glenn Beck. You might want to give him a call. I had his number. I sent it to him. And you know what? Jack held onto that email. And 10 years later, I see Jack appearing at one of these radio talker seminars. He's on the stage talking. And he pulled up that email and he said, this is what you do when you want to find new talent. You just keep looking in the most unusual of places. This is what Phil Boyce foundation with Glenn Beck in New Haven. And now look where Glenn Beck is now. Because by that time, Glenn had become a national sensation. So it's nice when people remember that and remember what it takes to be a talk show host. Glenn is an incredibly gifted man and hopefully will always be doing this with us.

[Steve Dace]

So I've got two minutes before the next break, and then I want us to look at where we are in the present as an industry and what that means moving forward. But I've got just enough time. I've told this story to the audience many times. I don't think I've ever communicated this to you, but when you guys brought me in for a week to try out on your new New York station in Salem when you debuted, the answer.

[Phil Boyce]

That's right.

[Steve Dace]

And I came in for a week and I did my best. I was also paranoid I was gonna get the job because I really didn't wanna move to New York. But it's one of those things you couldn't refuse if it's offered, you know? And so at the end, when you guys brought me in to kind of give me some feedback, you and your team, and the feedback was overwhelmingly positive. And I was like, well, there's gotta be something negative, something I did wrong. And I've laughed about this. I think that was back in 2014, I want to say, maybe so a while ago.

[Phil Boyce]

Sounds right.

[Steve Dace]

And I've laughed about this ever since. Your team told me you thought I was too nice, and I've laughed about that. Too nice for New York is what you guys thought. Because back home here, where I'm from, I am the dark lord of the Sith. It's the only time that's the. I've been called everything you could possibly be called in this business, Phil, in the 20 years I've done it. But the only time I've been called too nice was by you and your team. That was maybe the greatest piece of criticism I have ever received. And I've always wanted to thank you guys for that. So this is my opportunity.

[Phil Boyce]

You become mean after that, Steve.

[Steve Dace]

I did not. No. In fact, I was like, wow, I didn't know it was possible to call me nice, you know, So I, I, I took that criticism as one of the, one of the, one of the greatest compliments I've received as well. So, well.

[Phil Boyce]

But you were in, in a very nice town when I found you. Des Moines, where people are generally nice.

[Steve Dace]

Yeah. Iowa, nice. Yes. Yeah, exactly.

[Phil Boyce]

So that's probably why you seem nice compared to the New York City. Crass crowd.

[Steve Dace]

Right. Like, I can't imagine saying anything. Like, I hope he gets his at the end of a show in Des Moines, Iowa. I can't imagine even contemplating saying something like that. All right, when we come back, we are at a crossroads as an industry right now. Not in just in terms of technology with podcasting and everything else, but also as a reflection of our overall coalition. And since a guy, he's been there at the dawn of this whole thing, he's got to have some wisdom about where this is going. And we're going to get into that with Phil Boyce here when we return. Stay tuned.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Kexi is celebrating America's 250th anniversary in a big way. Right now, Kexi is running their biggest sale of the year, 25% off their standard boxes. They also launched that brand new limited edition 4th of July cookie box. Don't know if it's still available, but might as well find out [e-mail] once those boxes are gone. They are gone, though if you're planning get getaways and cookouts all through the summer. Heading to a family gathering you're sending as a gift or want something other than the boring dessert tray? The time to order is now. Kexi just launched their brand new Hawaiian Coconut loaf for the summer as well. Oh man, that sounds really good. Loaded with sweet shredded coconut, touch of crushed pineapple and tropical flavors. Make every slice feel like summer. Baked in fresh small batches. Works for breakfast, brunch, dessert or gifting. So grab your 25% off on the standard cookie box right now at kexi.com kexi.com Biggest sale of the year to celebrate America's 250th. Get them today at kexi.com it is here we are on the cusp of the Independence Day holiday. 250 years old is this great country in which we live. And it is a great country because God is good. That's the subtitle, of course, to Steve's new book, why Independence Day. The children's book America Is Great Because God Is Good looked at the history of the United States, its founding documents, really, the things that made this country the 3,000 years in the making. That's all detailed in a way that a child can understand. And why Independence Day America is great because God is good. I said something on the show the other day about the launch of this book and I said I didn't want to say it out loud. But now that we're on this occasion when I'm doing this live read, I am absolutely blown away with the response to this book. In particular, this has been one of the best, most smoothest launches of one of Steve's book that I can remember. And it's all because of you. So thank you for that. Order yours today if you haven't [e-mail] still think there's the hard cover available, but those are running out fast. Get those search for why Independence Day America is Great Because God is Good. Find yours today at Amazon.

[Steve Dace]

All right back here with hour two on a special evergreen edition of the Steve Day show here on Blaze tv, radio and podcast. You'll hear from Todd erzin and Aaron McIntyre. Get their reactions to this conversation with Phil Boyce, VP of the Spoken word format over at Salem Media. Looking back at the history of conservative media and radio, which you've already heard, he has seen a ton of it and lived it and been a part of it. But now we're going to talk in a moment about where we are now and what that means moving forward into the future. But don't forget that you can let us know what you think about what we think. Use the stevedase.com inbox by emailing us steve dace.com like us on Facebook, me, we and Gab. You can follow me at Steve Dae show on x Instagram and TikTok, subscribe on dayshow, @daeshow on YouTube and and then if you're a podcast listener. Thank you guys. You're the biggest part of our audience. We appreciate you. Leave us a five star review. Tens of thousands of you have. That's if you like the show. If you don't like the show, we'd never ask you to lie. If you kind of like the show, though, we would ask you to exaggerate if you wouldn't mind doing that. So go ahead and leave us a five star review.

[Phil Boyce]

Thank you.

[Steve Dace]

And then we don't, we don't ask anybody to bear false witness just to exaggerate our fragile egos. Phil. And then you can hit subscribe as well on your very or follow on Apple itunes to make sure you guys never miss an episode. So now that we're back here, Phil, let's set the scene of where we are. We have technological realities. We have a greatly democratized information delivery system. Now I was talking to somebody at amfest last year who is a top salesperson for a media company and she said to me, there is, there's never been an easier time to get an audience of a hundred thousand and never been a harder time to get an audience of a million. That everybody's bandwidth floor is raised, the ceiling is lower, and that makes it really hard to figure out where to take advertisers who can really move, whose numbers are real, whose are not. I was in D.C. recently with a major conservative media advertiser. I won't mention any names. It wasn't on your network, so don't worry. Okay, but it was, but it was a couple of big huge names on other networks. And he flat out told me your show delivers way more in terms of what your company charges to what you give us. They are ba. He told me they're basically charging us Rush Limbaugh level rates for the, the supposed audience they have and they cannot deliver that. You know, and, and then finally, Phil and see, these are practical things that I think our audience will understand impacts what they do or do not get on their, on their, on their devices, what they do and do not hear. We just went through at the time you and I are recording this. We're wrapping up the 2026 primary cycle. All right, it's mid spring 26, so this might run a month from now. It might run in the fall. I don't know yet. Just want to set the stage for people. And the number one thing I hear, with all the various political contacts I have around the country, from pollsters to media buyers to consultants to candidates themselves, I don't know where to buy political media. Used to be, if I wanted to win a primary, go buy up the 50,000 watt blowtorch and the number one local guy in that community, that guy doesn't exist anymore. There's not a bunch of mini Rush Limbaughs on all these major markets anymore. I don't know where to go. I feel like I have to buy Fox News to reach most, you know, Republican primary voters in Montana. But that's still not nearly the level of audience that the local talk radio guy used to generate. And there's like 50 independent podcasts that all have a few thousand. But I don't know. I mean, this thing is really spread out and really democratized. Can you just talk to our audience in a way they would get how that is impacting what they do and do not hear what they do and do not see and even really, who's winning elections right now across the country.

[Phil Boyce]

Right. Well, first, let me talk about radio. AM talk radio is in a bit of decline, and it is in a bit of a decline. Not because people aren't interested with the stuff that we talk about, not because we don't have good hosts. We still have the same good hosts we always had, but it's because of the. What you just said. It's the competition factor. You can find almost every slice of that bread somewhere out there on the Internet. Podcasting has taken off like gangbusters. And, you know, we just have to. For those of us who are committed to radio, we have to keep doing what we're doing because I think people will stay with us. But we also have to expand into the podcast world, into the digital world, into the OTT television network world, where we've got Salem News Channel and several others are out there. There is so much fragmentation going on that I can see why a politician would wonder, where do I put my ad dollars? I think you have to be very careful where you put your ad dollars. The host today, if you're not on the radio, if you're on podcasting, you got to be very careful what kind of host you're talking to, because there are some out there that are not all that truthful, that are not going to be all that respectful. And there's problems out there. I mean, there's problems with the infighting, there's problems with the feud, the feud going on between Turning Point and Candace and Tucker and all of these things. I wish it would go away because I'm more concerned about the future of the country. And I don't think this is helping anybody to denigrate and tear down and destroy the people that might disseminate good information to our audience. And I hope it goes away. I hope that we're able to survive this blip in time because it's not helping anybody.

[Steve Dace]

What about. I'm going to come back to that because that's part of the coalition discussion in a second. This new thing we're seeing in the podcast world of major shows, selling interviews and one of the things I've wondered is, is this being done? Because if you're, this is one way, if you, if an advertiser is like, hey, I'm not getting from you what I thought I was going to get for what you charge. But somebody has a one time message they want to get out and they'll pay a premium to do that once. I can see why you'd want that as a revenue stream. But I had an invest a gal who's a friend of mine, Brianna Morello, an investigative reporter on our side, and she was showing me recently, this gal, and she was just showing me documentation. This gal is a Russian operative and she is literally just going around and buying shows on various podcasts and to essentially just spread forms of disinformation. There's just no way. It's not like some kind of disinformation by a, a foreign government. Right. And so how do we police that? Right. On one hand, you know, gatekeepers usually suck at their job, historically. On the other hand, we got to have some gates, you know, I mean, we, you know, so how do we, how do we police that and maintain our integrity for our audiences?

[Phil Boyce]

Yeah, you've got to be prepared to say no to some of the things that come across the door. They're not helpful, they're not good. And even though the money might be there, it's not something that we want to do. I think the problem is with the economy where it is, with some of the revenue for talk radio being down, with some of the, you know, with all these podcasters that are out there, it's hard to find advertisers to fill up all of the slots on these shows. So that's where you're vulnerable to somebody coming in saying, I'll pay X amount of dollars if you'll buy that interview. If you'll interview me, I'll pay for that. And we've got to be very careful when we're agreeing to do that. We've got to be very, very careful.

[Steve Dace]

That brings us to the coalition, and I wanted to make sure we had plenty of time to discuss that here in the final 19 minutes because in many respects it is a reflection of the political landscape on our side at the same time. And, you know, over the last couple of years of his life, Charlie and I got to be very good friends. And one of the last times we were together was at Terranea in August of last year, almost exactly a month before he was murdered. And it was just three people at the table for about 90 minutes, me, him and my wife with his security detail outside. And I was one of the headline speakers he brought in for the pastors conference at this event. And, and we were discussing the future of our industry, his future, where he was going to go, what he was going to do, the desire for him and I to work together moving forward. And just a lot of very blunt conversations about things before the rifts that you're talking about now ever emerged or even on the horizon before Tucker went on some kind of Muslim world magical mystery tour he's on now. And I say that again as a guy, I love Tucker. He's been great to me. I, I'm, my, I'm heart sick by what's going on with him right now. And, and, and Charlie's entire thing was, you know, the coalition. He was big on that, maintaining the coalition. Right. And I, I look at this moving forward and I'm, and I'm not really sure where this goes. It feels like maybe the Israel thing is creating a schism.

[Phil Boyce]

He.

[Steve Dace]

Here, that, that there's there that you're, and I don't know that this will get reunified. You know, I don't, I, I, if, if your reaction to the, you know, again, at the time you and I are recording this, we, we just watch Muslims try to burn France down over the weekend. Right. And if, if your reaction to that is, as Ben Shapiro used to once coined it, the Jews. If that's, if you, if your reaction to that is that, then, I mean, I'm not Jewish, man, but I just don't have the same world. I must, I just don't think I'm, I'm looking at the same reality.

[Phil Boyce]

You Are.

[Steve Dace]

I don't. I don't know what we have in common, and I know there's a lot of nervousness about this. It drives a lot of the online conversation right now. So I'm just with that as a setup now. I. I yield the balance of my time to Yoda here. Okay, so you've seen it all, You've lived it all. Where are we going here, Phil? What's the future look like?

[Phil Boyce]

I don't know. That's the scary part. I really don't know where it's going. I can tell you that finding Charlie Kirk was a. A God thing for me. I found him, probably. What was it? About six years ago, I saw. I've been watching him and following him and very impressed with him. And I see him walking down the hallway at CPAC there in Washington, D.C. and I got a few minutes with him, and I said, have you ever thought about being a talk show host? And he said, it's been my dream since I was a kid. And I said, a good place to start would be podcasting. Have you ever started doing a podcast? And he said, I just signed a deal to do a podcast for Podcast one, a guy named Norm Pattis, who is now gone. But Norm was the owner and starter of Podcast one. And I said, well, how long is that deal? And he said, it's about a year and a half. And I said, why don't you do it for a year and then call me and let me know how it's going, and if you're happy with it, stay there, but if you're not happy with it, we'll talk to you about coming over to Salem. So he did that, and sure enough, a year later, a guy who's now a good friend of mine, Andrew Colvitt, called me up out of the blue and said, charlie would like to talk to you about moving his podcast from Podcast one over to Salem. And I'll tell you a funny story about that. I. I got a chance to look at Charlie's contract, and I realized that Norm, who was a very shrewd manager, had put a poison pill in the contract that would make it extremely difficult for Charlie to get out of Podcast one and join us at Salem. But I knew that Charlie wanted to do that, and one of the reasons he wanted to do that was that he recognized that the sellers that were selling for Podcast one did not share his political belief, and he knew that Salem did. So he wanted to go with a sales force that believed in him. So, long story short, I flew out to see Norm, who again was a friend. And I said, norm, what can I do to get Charlie out of your network and over to mine? And at first he said, well, there's nothing. If you make him an offer, I'll match it. And I said, well, I'm not going to make him an offer because I know you have the right to match it, but what could I do to get that right? And I was able to give him a briefcase full of $25,000 in cash if he would let me negotiate with Charlie Kirk and get him out of that deal. And then another 25,000 in cash I would give him if he would, if we signed the deal with Charlie, which we eventually did. So it took me $50,000 to do it. Now, remember, right about that time, Joe Rogan was signing his deal for 100 million. So I felt pretty good about the $50,000 investment.

[Steve Dace]

Yes.

[Phil Boyce]

And Charlie became a huge hit and became our number one revenue generator. And most of it was coming in from the podcast. As you said, he was getting Rush Limbaugh, like, money. But it was a really. The podcast was where he was huge. He said he wanted to be the next Rush Limbaugh, which he really did. He was a Rush baby. He grew up on Rush. But, and I think had he been able to continue, if he had not been killed, he would have been the heir apparent to the Rush Limbaugh shoes and would still be out there doing what we're doing today. But here's the problem. He cared about the country more than he cared about his own success. He was willing to sacrifice anything to save America. He was willing to sacrifice anything to save the young people on college campuses who he knew were being indoctrinated with horrible thoughts and untrue things, Marxist things and communist things and all of these things that he was fighting against. And it was because of those things that he was killed because they wanted to silence his voice. There have to be other Charlie Kirks coming forth. I really believe when they killed him, they would open the door to others coming through. And I hope and pray that there are more because we've got to fight this battle in this country or we're going to lose this country.

[Steve Dace]

Last thing let's talk about for the final 10 minutes. I, I think, you know, I've got a. At the, you know, I've got a 19 year old son. He's in the midst of launching into his own life. And I know how he was raised because I did it. Okay. And yet he still has some of the Questions that some of the young men that are caught in the vortexes of the Nick Fuentes of the world have, which is why is it so hard to find a Christian girl who's not had three abortions or doesn't want to one day? Why do we have to do all these endless wars in the Middle East? I think these are all valid questions, generational questions. And I think we have to leave room for the younger generation to have a reckoning about why they're being handed a country where it's at least guaranteed that the American dream of you pass on a better country than you received to the next generation. They will get to realize that. I think they're owed that. And I will tell you what one of my struggles just is in this job is I want to. I'm kind of in the in between generation. I'm a Gen Xer, right? You know, and so the boomers are my parents, you know, and then millennials and Gen Z are my kids, you know, and I hear their complaints and I hear my parents complaints about them. And I think they both have valid complaints about each other. And then I have complaints about both of them.

[Phil Boyce]

All right?

[Steve Dace]

You know, and so, but I think on some, we have to let the young people ask the, the questions. I, I do think we need a better answer. And I say this about, I love Ted. I used to work for Ted Cruz. Okay? But we do need a better answer as to why we support Israel than Genesis 12:3. I think we need some practical answers for the next generation because we can't just make assumptions that maybe we could in the past. And my fear is if we don't do that, then we're just going to become an RSS feed for the nihilistic voices like Fuentes and others who's going to drive the younger generations, write to them, because it looks like we don't have answers and we're afraid to answer their questions. But then there's a balance of, you know, when are we asking questions and when is it that we are deconstructing at the same time? And I, I am trying to balance that out. I don't want to be an agent of deconstruction, but I also think there needs to be some kind of a generational reckoning here. And I'm trying to constantly, you know, pilot that ship through that narrow corridor there, here on my own program. Phil, do you have any thoughts on that?

[Phil Boyce]

Yeah, I do. And I think you're right. We have to do a better job educating our young people about how this situation that we're in now came to be. We need to go back 2,000 years. We need to look at how the country of Israel was formed. We need to look about the stories of Joseph and, and Abraham and Jacob and all of those which were the foretelling of what became the Jewish nation and became the Jewish people. And then eventually it's because of the Jewish people that we had Christian people. And I think we have done such a poor job educating our young people. And you're right, you've done a good job educating your son. But even then you worry that you're sending him out into the world where he's going to get indoctrinated with some of these beliefs that are just completely wrong and untrue. And so we've got to do a better job bringing these young people up. Look, I don't know whether we can completely save the nation. You look at some of the great books out there. Robert Jeffress wrote a book called Twilight's Last Gleaming. And it talks about the end days of America. And it's not a real feel good book, but it does tell the truth. It's foretold in Revelation what's going to happen to America. I think our job as communicators like you and me, Steve, it's to keep this thing going as long as we possibly can, to bring as many people with us into heaven as we possibly can. Because if we don't, this thing is going to go down very quick.

[Steve Dace]

Agreed. I don't want to be an agent of Division, but I also don't want to do nothing while wolves devour sheep at the same time.

[Phil Boyce]

Right.

[Steve Dace]

I, I tell pastors when I speak to them all over America, your job is to feed the sheep and metaphorically speaking, shoot the wolves. That is your job. As Augustine once said, there are many sheep without many more wolves within. You know, and when we see things like I will tell you, I mean, you work in politics for 20 years, as I have now. This year you've seen some stuff. The tormenting of Charlie's widow is the straight up free based, most wicked thing I've ever witnessed with my own eyes and ears what's gone on with Erica in the aftermath of Charlie's murder. And it's hard for me to sit here as his friend and not push back on that and push back on those that are doing that. And yet I also don't want to, like, further spread, you know, dissension in the ranks too. So what's the, what's the Dividing line between accountability is. Is accountability and division, Are they totally subjective, Phil? Like, if. If, If. If. It depends on your perspective. If you agree, it's. It's accountability. If you don't, it's division. Or is there. Is there more. Is there a more objective standard than that? Don't tell me, Phil. Did Phil freeze up? That was, like, the. Maybe the best question I've asked yet. Oh, can we see if we can get him back? Because I would really like to. All right. We're working to get him back. I thought maybe he was just so blown away by the caliber of that question, he just had to pause for a second and contemplate it and think about it for a minute. I didn't know that it was because the screen froze. Oh, he got him back. All right, Phil, you're there. Okay, good. I don't know. I don't know how much you heard of my question. I'll try to ask it. Less mediocre than I did before you froze up, brother. Is division and accountability, are they subjective? Right. As I said, before you froze up. I think the most wicked thing I've seen in my career is the tormenting of Charlie's widow. I mean, I just. I don't even know. It violates every tenant, the spirit and letter of God's law, the tormenting of widows, particularly one who's the widow of the most. What will likely be the most viewed murder in all of human history is what happened to Charlie.

[Todd Erzin]

And.

[Steve Dace]

And so am I. Am I when I defend them? Is that accountability for those that are tormenting them? Or am I spreading division? Should I just let it go? What's the. What's the line there between accountability and division?

[Phil Boyce]

To me, we draw the line there. To me, that's crossing the line. To me, that's, as you say, that's attacking a widow who had her husband killed on national television. And I don't know very many people who didn't see that video and didn't come away horrified. I think Erica is trying her best to carry on the legacy that Charlie tried to bring to this country. And I don't see any reason. What gain do you have to attack this poor woman? She's done nothing wrong. She didn't want this. She was thrust into this position through tragedy. And I just think it's horrible what's happening. And I think that's where we draw the line. When people take that position, when people attack her for no apparent reason, I think we have to stand up and defend her. If enough people Will it'll push back the demons that are attacking her? That. That would be my answer.

[Steve Dace]

What about something more ideological or philosophical at least? Maybe it's not. Maybe it is more spiritual like Tucker. Because when we talk about people have a good reputation and how they treat others privately, I put Tucker in that group, at least as far as I know. And I think that's why a lot of our brethren were slow to kind of confront his dissent here, because he, he has so much, you know, personal goodwill built up with a lot of our peer group. So is, you know, if we're going to retcon, maybe, maybe Churchill was the bad guy. Maybe we should reconsider Hitler. Maybe, you know, Nick Fuentes has something constructive to say. Maybe Israel really is the center of evil in the world. Right. Are those. Where's. Where. Where do you think the line is in terms of entertaining those conversations as opposed to. Yeah, that's just beyond the pale.

[Phil Boyce]

Well, we have freedom of choice in this country. Fortunately, we still have it. The left hasn't taken that away from us. So I would say be very careful what you spend your time with, what you allow to get into your brain. The, the opinions that are expressed are not always good, positive, and worthy. And I think you have to be very careful. I think right now people have this conspiracy minded way of looking at things, and they're willing to believe things that years ago I don't think we would have ever believed. I hear people believing because they saw it on the Internet, they saw it as a podcast, they saw the story, they saw the opinion, and it was said in such a convincing way. Look, you have to admit Tucker's really good. He's a great communicator. So is Candace. But I don't know if what they're saying is the thing that we should be paying attention to. We shouldn't be listening to some of these things. We've got to turn the country around and come together, not destroy each other, but to come together. That, to me, is the answer.

[Steve Dace]

I've got three minutes left. Your biggest concern and your biggest hope for what we do moving forward and what that may or may not mean for the country.

[Phil Boyce]

Yeah. My biggest concern is that the ability that we have to communicate with our audience will be taken away from us at some point. I was very concerned when Trump was running for his second term that if, if Kamala Harris would win, they would use that as an excuse to take away our freedom of speech, to take away our freedom of religion, to make it incredibly difficult for those of Us who do opinions, spoken word, that's like me and you, to make it difficult for us to express our opinions, especially using the FCC governed methodologies, radio, television, et cetera, they might try to take away what we say on podcasting as well. That, to me, is my number one fear. My number one concern, will they try to shut us down? The truth is they don't like what we say. They think what we say is evil, even though what they do is evil. And the only answer to it is open dialogue and free speech. And let the truth be told. Let the truth rise to the top. And if you take away our ability to tell the truth very quickly, you'll destroy this country. So that's my biggest fear, my biggest opportunity is to somehow coalesce and come together with a message that resonates with a message that makes so much sense that people are able to see it as the truth and the way to go forward, look after Donald Trump. I don't know whether we'll ever have a president like him again. I think that Donald Trump has great, great qualities. He also has an unhinged mouth. I w that he could control it because what he said is caused damage. But his policies have been miraculous. And that's where I think we have to look for the next person to follow in his footsteps.

[Steve Dace]

Well, we're down to the final minute. Phil, thank you for giving us these 90 minutes here to do this today. I mean, I enjoyed it greatly. My producer, Aaron grew up as a radio nerd. He. And he was fascinated, he told me during the break, by this entire exchange. And if I've not said it sufficiently before, thank you. I mean, there's a handful of people that without them, I would not be where I am. You're one of them. The dearly departed Stuart Person senior certainly is one of them. So thank you guys very much and greatly appreciate you, brother. Thank you.

[Phil Boyce]

Thank you. Appreciate it. Steve, thanks for what you do because we wouldn't be the same without you either. So thank you so much.

[Steve Dace]

Very kind. We'll see you soon. God bless. All right, let's get some reaction to this conversation from Phil Boyce here in a moment. Stay tuned.

[Phil Boyce]

The Steve Day Show.

[Aaron McIntyre]

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[Steve Dace]

Back here. Now this is where Todd and Aaron come in as our ad hoc focus group to react on your behalf as they listen to everything that you guys did, watched everything you guys did. And let me just say this before I hand it off to you guys. To me, the most important part of the interview is the question that I asked Phil before it started. And I. Because I, I certainly don't want to put a guy with his relationships and connections. I mean, obviously he agreed to do this, so he knew I, you know, we'd want to get to interesting content. He's a program director. He's. He wasn't going to just give us like a seminar here. He was going to make it interesting. But I also didn't want to put. Fill in a position to betray any friendships or anything like that, you know. So I asked him beforehand, you know, hey, is there anything or anyone you want you're not comfortable with me talking about? You know, we're technically, we're all part of an industry movement here, but we're technically there. He's technically on a competing media entity, you know, so I don't want to set him up to fail. And he said, nope. And so that's when I knew we were going to be able for sure to get into some of these more complicated matters as we did towards the end of that conversation. And I'm not surprised that Phil said nope, because he's Phil friggin Boyce. I mean, he's seen it all. So he's kind of at that stage of his career. Like I really get to say what I want. And I think you heard that here today to our benefit as well. So, gentlemen, the floor now is yours. Reaction.

[Todd Erzin]

Go ahead, Aaron.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Yeah, I just. That whole thing was. Was fascinating. But I think what resonates with me the most is where we are now and where we're going. Because if there's Anybody who could maybe provide an answer as to where this whole thing is headed, meaning the industry of right wing media, conservative media, whatever you want to call it, not the legacy media, whatever you want to call that. If there's somebody who might be able to have an answer on where we go from here, it would be somebody like Phil Boyce. But you heard him say there, I don't know.

[Steve Dace]

That was something I don't know. Yeah.

[Aaron McIntyre]

And he's one of these people. They are in every industry and politics and things like that, there are these kind of unseen, unheard fulcrums doing work in the background, on the background. And this is not a complete and total endorsement of Sean Hannity or any of these huge names that you've heard of. I would just say this. I would rather live in a country of 300 plus million people where a Sean Hannity is a huge voice rather than somebody who is a total leftist, rather live in a country where Mark Levin certainly has a huge voice and a huge platform, than a total lefty. So you need these fulcrums in the background who are doing hard work, doing good work, who you don't really know. And I think Phil Boyce, as you heard today, throughout the last several decades now, has been one of those kind of unseen, unheard forces that are elevating voices that have done, turned out to do some good work as well. But I think what he's talking about at the end there, the democratization, the fragmentation, the splintering, whatever you want to call it, of information sources, of broadcasting sources. This is every bit as much an industry problem as it is a people problem. Go back 15, 20 years ago. Most, most, with the exception of like the Drudge Report, most information, and I'm bringing that one, it was just top of mind. There are other websites like that as well. Most of the information that most people got was sourced by legacy media outlets, by legacy media, by the old media, the AP wire, the New York Times, the paper of record, the major networks, things like that. Most of the information kind of filtered through those organizations. That world is gone now. Does anybody want to go back to that world? Nope.

[Steve Dace]

No.

[Aaron McIntyre]

No. And then with the advent of Fox News and the success of Fox News, at least for our side, kind of our mainstream media, was Fox News. Does anybody want to go back to the world where Fox News was the final say on what was the Overton window? What was the polite conversation? No. But here's the thing that they actually accomplished back then, much to our chagrin, most of the time, they did serve as a gatekeeper. And as you said, most of the time people serving as gatekeeper, gatekeepers are pretty crappy at their job. But at least it reined in. And I'm not wait for me to actually finish this, and I'm not advocating for more gatekeepers, but at least it kind of reined in or provided some guardrails to conversation. That was one function of it. Like I can't imagine in the world of 2006, Israel is this and that it's the Jews. Every. I can't imagine in a media sphere, a media landscape on the right that would have ever even entertained that. But now, because of the splintering, the fracturing of right wing media, of really all of media, those guardrails, by and large are gone. They're gone now. You can find a podcast, you can find 10 podcasts about the Jews. You can find 10 podcasts about the aliens. You can find 10 podcasts about why Steve Day sucks or why Aaron sucks or Todd sucks. You can find, you can find, you can find a podcast about anything that you want to believe. If we were a people, however, that were discerning, that were discriminatory, having a great deal of democratization when it comes to the media sphere would be a wonderful thing.

[Steve Dace]

Sure.

[Aaron McIntyre]

But are we that people?

[Todd Erzin]

No.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Have we arrived to the point where we are anything but that people just at the time that that democratization happened? See, I think that's where we are right now. I think personally, I think where we're headed is that a lot of these voices, I think we're probably at the top. Is that the zenith? Yeah, that's the zenith. We are at the top of the availability of basically every topic, every subgenre, every sub, sub, sub, sub, sub, sub, subgenre of every topic. I think we're at pretty much the top now. I think people who are serious about this or serious about making money, serious about whatever, I think doing this solo, I think they're going to wear themselves out. So I do think there are going to be fewer options in the about where you go to get your information. But this is very much a people problem. We're not a moral and religious people. We're not a discriminatory people. And I'm talking about the classic definition of discrimination, discriminatory. We're not that people anymore. So now we're at the place where we're stuck. We would like to have some guardrails. We don't want the guardrails that we had 20 years ago.

[Steve Dace]

We don't trust Anybody to be the Guardsmen.

[Aaron McIntyre]

We don't trust anyone. So we're not in a place of homeostasis bringing in kind of a nautical term. We're kind of in the horse latitudes right now, which is we're not really moving the trade. I think that's the trade winds. They're not really a blowing. If you've got an audience, you'll probably hold it. If you don't, you'll have a hard time getting one. And I think that's a people problem at the end of the day because I think what we have shown is that people, people want what they want to hear. People want what they want to hear. And that's part of human nature forever. But in this unique era, in this unique place, that is a major problem. And I just pray. This is one of the things that we pray for, like real revival. Yes. Even the kind that will be painful is that people will replace their desire for having their ears itched with a desire for the truth that will set them free. And ironically, we've reset this several times on the show. It's harder to verify information than it ever has been. But the ironic part is that the word of God is as relevant as it ever has been. Because when you don't know what to believe, when you don't know what do to what is true in the news, that should send you to the pages of scripture even more because that will never change. That will never let you down. So fascinating conversation, especially talking about where we are, where we're going. And a guy like that kind of not having an answer and that's not a knock on feel because none of us totally know.

[Steve Dace]

It kind of tells you there's not an answer.

[Aaron McIntyre]

Kind of tells you that.

[Steve Dace]

Yeah. What do you think, Todd?

[Todd Erzin]

Well, in the gosh, over many years, Steve, I've known you, what is it known you? 23 now there's Phil Boyce is a name that's come up as many times over that many years of, you know, some take. Take me down a trip down memory lane kind of a thing. I don't know if there's another name that I remember Steve mentioning throughout the years. So it's. It was very neat for me. I've never met Phil. I don't even recall seeing a sound bite from him. But when I look over at Steven when he's talking to people, that Steve I was watching, that felt like Steve at a family reunion, which was neat. I like that. There's a lot. There was a lot of good memories, clearly And I can see why now after listening to him at length, because the guardrails Aaron is talking about. I heard the guardrail in there. He said, I'm just trying to help people get to heaven. That's not the guardrail of most people in most walks of life these days, even. Even when they kind of sort of are lying to themselves. That they are. It's. They've got all kinds of other things going on. And one thing you never saw Phil explicitly say in an hour and a half, and I don't remember him saying anything implicit, that that was the bottom line of anything. And the one time maybe it is, is when he made the joke about the brief, the briefcases. But did you once get the feeling that Phil believed it? There's just too much money. That guy made people a lot of money, Steve. Right?

[Phil Boyce]

Yeah.

[Todd Erzin]

But it's not because it's the opposite. He stood on principle, and he found people who stood on principle. Not perfectly, but that was the ball game to him for most people these days. I mean, right now, Phil, I don't know how old you are. I don't know how much gas you have left in the tank. Do you want to watch? Do you want to run college sports? Because really, I think I'd like to see you have a go with it because you would never lie to yourself like everybody else lies to with that one. No matter what business lane you go down sooner or later, it's just inevitable because there's just too much money. The devil loves that lie. It's a foreign language to God. And I saw a man that for the most part, apparently was never allowed, never allowed himself to believe that lie. So it was impressive to see a man in full like that.

[Steve Dace]

Back to Aaron. You noting Phil's. I don't know, given his expertise, his wisdom. I mean, Phil was there to launch the careers of Laura Ingram, Glenn Beck, Mark Levin, Sean Hannity. These are titular figures in the history of our industry, history of our movement. He is running the talk radio division of the largest Christian media company that's ever existed in Salem. When he tells you, I don't know. I think Aaron is. Maybe Aaron, if anything, even undersold it. As dramatic as his answer was, I think you need to understand how deep into the undiscovered country we are right now.

[Todd Erzin]

He's the guy who knew.

[Steve Dace]

He's the one who's plotted many of the paths that you have witnessed, including partially some of my own. Many of the paths that you have witnessed. I mean, I. I grew up listening to the paths that Phil chart, that Phil blazed for the Mark Levins and Glenn Beck's of the world. I am the second generation of paths that Phil helped to blaze when he tells you, I don't know. I think we need to understand how deep into the undiscovered country we are that, that there may not be an answer. We're all going to kind of realize this full time. And this is why I think what we're undergoing is some form of a schism on the right. And I think there's a group of, because I, I, I don't think it's just opportunism. If it was just up for some, I'm sure it is.

[Phil Boyce]

Right.

[Steve Dace]

Because it's human nature. But if it's just opportunism, the time to turn on Trump is two years from now and he's a lame duck. And he's, especially if we get killed in the midterms. You know what I'm saying? That that's, you don't do it when he's got three more years in office.

[Phil Boyce]

Right.

[Steve Dace]

He's not going anywhere for a while. So if it was just mere opportunism, you'd wait till the more opportune time when you had a lame duck there and he's not getting any younger and he got dented by the midterms. Maybe he got impeached in the House, but the Senate didn't remove. You see what I'm saying? You'd, you'd bail on a stock when it's perceived to be dropping, not when it's still operating at the level of capacity that Trump's is within our base. And so that's why I think what you're seeing here is a schism. I, I think that there is a movement to essentially become the, the kind of right wing that exists in Europe that can't win any elections. I, and I think there's that, and I think that's, and then I think there's another right wing that, that thinks we can go back to the first things of America and, and recreate those conditions to save America again. Now, I would certainly be more in the second camp for sure, but I do think there's a certain amount of naivete at times in the second camp. That's why I asked Phil the question about does the younger generation need a reckoning? We, we need to answer some serious questions for the next generation. Some serious questions. This is why I have friends of mine that get mad at me for being friends with and putting Oran on our show because I think he represents a wing of people that have some serious questions that deserve some serious answers. Doesn't mean I agree with all their questions. And I don't. I know there's a few of their answers, at least, I don't agree with, But I think they're all real good questions that require answers, and they're gonna need. And my fear is, if we don't have Orons around, We're kind of just gonna revert to getting high on our own supply and kind of just go back to the previous generation slogans and tropes, and then we're gonna lose the next generation to that, you know, European retard. Right? As Daniel horowitz describes it. Does that make sense? Now, I could be wrong, but that. That's my analytical read, and I want you to know that's what drives a lot of the decisions I make and how I comment on these affairs is. I. Is. That's my read of the environment, is that if we don't have really good answers, if you think Oron pushes boundaries, if we can't answer his questions and he's. I know him personally. I know he is a conscientious individual. If we cannot answer his questions, I promise you, what will come next will not be nearly as smart as he is, nearly as conscientious as he is. See what I'm saying? So we better answer him and his and his ilk's questions right now. That's my point.

[Todd Erzin]

Yeah. We ask iron sharpens iron. We ask the big right questions of each other, Even if we're coming to different answers. What it is, hopefully more often than not, it's making sure that. That ultimately we are trying to keep our focus on God. If we won't do that, we're just looking at ourselves, a reflection. Oh, look how pretty I am. And that's what this is, this atomized environment we're in. We got to get back to truly answering the God questions, not just the me questions.

[Steve Dace]

Preach great stuff. Can't thank Phil enough for doing that. Can't thank enough for all of. Can't thank you enough for tuning in. Hope you got a lot out of it as well. Back again next time. Until then, go hard. Romans 8. 28.

[Aaron McIntyre]

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