Jeremy O. Harris Returns

Summary

StraightioLab: Jeremy O. Harris Returns

Podcast: StraightioLab – Big Money Players Network & iHeartPodcasts
Hosts: George Civeris & Sam Taggart
Guest: Jeremy O. Harris
Release Date: March 24, 2026

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Overview

In this intellectually riotous episode, playwright and iconoclast Jeremy O. Harris returns to StraightioLab for a career-spanning, hyper-current, and deeply candid conversation with hosts George Civeris and Sam Taggart. Mixing high-art insight, Hollywood gossip, trauma and redemption, and incisive cultural critique (all laced with irreverent humor), the trio tackle topics ranging from the nature of fame and creative risk-taking to the realities of being jailed abroad, the state of independent film, queer friendship, reading lists, and taking a stand (often literally) at industry parties.

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Episode Structure & Key Themes

• Reminiscing on Jeremy’s First Visit & Legacy (05:04 – 07:58)
• Fame, the D-List, and Modern Celebrity (07:16 – 09:02)
• Hollywood Gossip, Theater Kids in Cinema, Sarah Pidgeon & the Kennedys Curse (09:03 – 11:37)
• Long Engagements & Nontraditional Relationships (12:10 – 14:03)
• Jeremy’s Imprisonment in Japan: The Surreal Memoir (14:34 – 23:56)
• Moral Responsibility, Bullying the (Rich, Often Queer) Powerful (34:05 – 39:43)
• Art, Activism & Protesting at Parties (Sam Altman/AI Discourse) (36:14 – 41:39)
• Collaborative Art-Making & Mutual Aid Cinema (53:19 – 61:31)
• Multilingual, Multicultural Art & Empathy (65:41 – 70:30)
• New York vs LA: Outsider Romance and Value Systems (74:18 – 75:52)
• Cultural Curiosity, The Case for Classical Music, and Risking in Art (79:16 – 85:10)

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Detailed Breakdown & Timestamps

Reunion, Fame, and The D-List

[05:04 – 09:02]

• Reminiscing on Jeremy’s pandemic-era debut on the podcast—the importance of that era and personal apologies. Jeremy jokes about apologizing for being Sam's high school bully.
  • “[previous episode] was a defining podcast that put us on the map.” – George (05:43)
• Discussion on the elusive A-list in the TikTok era, the democratization (and dilution) of fame:
  • “There's no A list unless you were famous in 1995.” – George (07:48)
• Queer solidarity, close agent ties (with Ariana DeBose), and theater performers’ struggles transitioning to screen. Funny aside:
  • “Did you guys hook up?” – George
    “Yeah, we’re both queer performers.” – Jeremy (08:59)

Kennedy Curses, Relationships, and Marriage Anxiety

[09:48 – 14:43]

• Sharp, funny riffs about pop culture obsession with the Kennedys (Ryan Murphy, cursed lineage, and risk-seeking behavior);
  • “No, this family is cursed…there are so many more interesting deaths.” – Jeremy (09:48)
• Relationship chat: Jeremy on resisting marriage, embracing long engagements, and the “right before” stage of love.
  • “I really believe in long engagements.” – Jeremy (12:23)
  • “We own an apartment together, we own art together… if we disentangled, that would be normal. If we had to call people who flew to my destination wedding, it would be a real issue.” – Jeremy (13:02)

Imprisonment in Japan: Kafkaesque Realness

[14:34 – 23:56]

• Jeremy details his 23-day imprisonment in Japan, subverting trauma with humor and sharp observation:
  • “White people would pay for it. I could get white people to pay to do what I did.” – Jeremy (15:00)
  • He lost 10 lbs, read 23 books (including the Norton Anthology and Aphra Behn's Oronooko), and experienced Japan’s analog, hard-boiled judicial process.
  • “They brought me books every day. I had photo books, plays…” – Jeremy (16:05)
  • “You don’t get to make a call. You don’t get a lawyer… It’s like Adult Swim, but real.” – Jeremy (19:39, 22:54)
• The process—prosecutor and judge culture, cultural differences, weirdly serendipitous book recommendations as a way to win over the judge, the deliberate cruelty of the press release outing Jeremy by name while sparing others.

Industry Parties, Activism, and The Necessity to Speak Up

[34:05 – 41:39]

• Viral story: Jeremy confronts Sam Altman (OpenAI) at Vanity Fair Oscar party:
  • “I said, are you excited about being remembered as, like, basically the Goebbels of the Nazi party?” – Jeremy (34:07)
• On calling out those in power:
  • “It's weird that so many people destroying the world are just there and everyone's just sort of like, completely chill.” – Jeremy (35:09)
  • “I want other people to do this at more parties.” – Jeremy (39:35)
• Debate on the limits of social media “posting as activism” versus real-life confrontation:
  • “I felt like I could do better talking to people IRL…leaning in over dinner than posting things.” – Jeremy (42:10)

Queer Culture, Therapy, and Celebrity Tangents

[43:09 – 46:20]

• Chat about gay pop culture icons, psychoanalyst Ed Droste, psychoanalysis as a “gay hobby.”
• Beef with Bella Freud and “nepo babies,” critique of shallow celebrity podcasts.
  • “Say one interesting thing challenge. You’re related to Sigmund Freud and Lucian Freud…and you’re releasing crewnecks that say ‘slay’ on them?” – Sam (44:33)
• Cate Blanchett gossip—how truly famous people behave, lounge, and the connection to queerness and openness in relationships:
  • “Kate has a way of sitting that looks so comfortable, so relaxed, so free.” – Jeremy (45:45)

Blue Ruptia: Collaborative Film-Making in Crisis

[51:03 – 61:31]

• Jeremy explains the origin and process behind his new film (with Charli XCX), Blue Ruptia, shot in Poland in a two-week, improvisational, “mutual aid” style (“Table of Bubbles” methodology):
  • “He [Pete] has a style called Table of Bubbles. What if every day we write three scenes…if three scenes are three minutes each for 12 days, you have a 75-minute movie.” – Jeremy (54:21)
• Serendipity brought Charli XCX into the project, collaborative writing, poetic improvisation, and why mutual/DIY cinema is the future as big studios falter.
  • “It’s like, mutual aid movies to, like, exercise creativity.” (61:31)
• Themes of “main character syndrome” and meaning-making, with deep analysis from the hosts:
  • “The movie’s about searching for meaning in your life, trying to make yourself a main character.” – Jeremy (62:29)
  • “I loved that part of the Charlie and Nel’s relationship, where…everything’s—the world revolves around us, and [it doesn’t].” – George (61:49)

Transcultural Cinema and Language as Empathy

[65:41 – 70:30]

• A mini-manifesto on the attraction of bilingual or multinational films as global cinema fragments, and how subtitles and code-switching force audiences to listen more deeply.
  • “What subtitles do, what a different language in a text does, is it forces you to lean in.” – Jeremy (68:03)
• Personal reflection on the feeling of cultural/linguistic dislocation and identity, and how it shapes creative work:
  • “He [my friend] realized he's not swaggy in Spanish… I'm the same way in Greece, I just, I've lost it.” – Sam & Jeremy (69:17–70:04)

Late-Stage Capitalism, Outsiderhood, Digital Detox

[74:18 – 77:36]

• Wry observation of LA's stratification (“Everyone’s unhappy with it and yet upholding it constantly.”) and NY vs LA.
• The aftermath of Japanese jail: cell phone withdrawal and the addictive grip of social media.
  • “I dreamed about group chats. I had phantom buzzing for a week and a half.” – Jeremy (77:06)
  • “The first three days I was out, I didn’t answer my phone. I felt free.” – Jeremy (77:56)

The Case for Classical Music, Cultural Curiosity, & Representation in Film

[78:54 – 85:47]

• Jeremy’s work with LA and NY Philharmonic, advocating for people (especially the young and curious) to participate in “high” arts:
  • “If you have disposable income, become a member at a theater…the fun is that you won’t like everything, but you’ll always have something to talk about.” – Jeremy (79:16)
• More curiosity, less cancellation—on complex representation and criticism in art (esp. black women, queer people, and casting):
  • “Would we rather artists never step outside themselves…for fear of failure and ridicule?” – Jeremy (85:15)

Notes for Hollywood: Oscars & the Art of “Giving Notes”

[86:33 – 89:33]

• The hosts and Jeremy roast and lovingly dissect the recent Oscar slate, calling for more shower scenes, longer (or shorter) runtimes, and yes—more visible queer people.
  • “We all have notes—my main one, they’re all 30 minutes too long.” – Jeremy (84:57)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Netflix/A-list era:

  • “There's no A list. Unless you were famous in 1995.” – George (07:48)

• On jail as a writing retreat:

  • “White people would pay for it. I could get white people to pay to do what I did.” – Jeremy (15:00)

• On confronting tech leaders:

  • “I said, are you excited about being remembered as, like, basically the Goebbels of the Nazi party?” – Jeremy, about Sam Altman (34:07)

• On activism IRL:

  • “I felt like I could do better work talking to people IRL about the crisis than I would have posting things.” – Jeremy (42:10)

• On curiosity in art and criticism:

  • “Few humans are trying to hurt you when they make art…but we should have a lot of grace for people trying and failing.” – Jeremy (85:10)

• On mutual aid, collective filmmaking:

  • “It’s mutual aid movies…to exercise creativity.” – Jeremy (61:31)

• On genre-bending, code-switching cinema:

  • “Subtitles…force you to lean in, and I think that’s becoming very attractive when there’s so much dopamine filling our brains.” – Jeremy (68:07)

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Timestamps for Standout Segments

• 05:04 – 07:58: Reunion & high school bully apology
• 14:34 – 23:56: Japanese prison story, book list, legal system
• 34:05 – 39:43: Sam Altman/AI confrontation at Vanity Fair
• 53:19 – 61:31: Blue Ruptia film origin & “Table of Bubbles” cinema
• 62:29 – 63:18: Main Character Syndrome & narrative meaning
• 65:41 – 70:30: Multilingual art, empathy, and the nature of identity
• 74:18 – 75:52: NY vs LA–outsider reflections
• 77:06 – 77:56: Digital detox after jail
• 78:54 – 85:47: The case for classical music & representation
• 86:33 – 89:33: Roasting the Oscars—“giving notes”

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode swings nimbly between sharp, self-aware humor, biting social and industry criticism, and moments of genuine vulnerability and insight. Jeremy O. Harris is characteristically unguarded—probing, gossipy, serious, sometimes outrageous, but always intellectually alive. George and Sam facilitate a vibe that is at once high-minded, playfully messy, and allergic to platitudes. For listeners, it’s a sprawling portrait of contemporary creative life—its dangers, its privileges, and its responsibilities—seen through queer, artistic, and sharply critical eyes.

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For Further Exploration

• Jeremy O. Harris’ reading list from Japanese jail (16:51)
• Blue Ruptia and its collaborative, “mutual aid” film methodology (53:19–61:31)
• The role of confrontational activism in elite circles (34:05–41:39)
• The rise of multilingual and transnational art-making (65:41–70:30)
• How to be curious (not just critical) as an audience member (79:16–85:15)

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This episode is essential for anyone interested in:

• Modern fame and its absurdities
• The backstage realities of art production
• Navigating identity, queerness, and protest in elite spaces
• The possibilities of new (and old) forms of creative collaboration
• The joy of having—and giving—notes

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Stream Blue Ruptia, support mutual aid art, and, as ever, keep being curious—just don’t expect Jeremy to stop speaking truth to power (or to Sam Altman) anytime soon.

Transcript

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[Jeremy O. Harris]

Foreign.

[George Severis]

What's up everybody? It's Sam here with a quick little show announcement. I'm doing my hour two more times in Los Angeles, California on March 24th and April 1st, and there's actually quite a few tickets available for those, even though they're intimate little shows. So I would love if you guys got tickets to those that would make my life life much less humiliating. So see you there. Enjoy the episode. Bye.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, it's not. No, it's not. It's never the time for racism.

[George Severis]

Okay, podcast starts now. This is an amazing start to an

[Sam Taggart]

amazing and we're keeping that in.

[George Severis]

We're keeping that in.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

You're not gonna delete it like Shane,

[Sam Taggart]

like the possibility of racism. I want the possibility of racism to be sort of the want everyone to

[Jeremy O. Harris]

think about what it was gonna be

[Sam Taggart]

for Elephant in the Room.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Chekhov's Gun.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I thought I was on therapist for a second.

[Sam Taggart]

Chekhov's Slur.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Chekhov's Slur.

[George Severis]

Chekhov's Slur I mean, without further ado, he's already here. Please welcome to the podcast, Jeremy O. Harris.

[Sam Taggart]

Hello and good afternoon, Jeremy.

[George Severis]

Good afternoon, Jeremy.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Wait, do I not get a welcome back?

[Sam Taggart]

And welcome back and welcome back.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Do you guys want to. Or do you want to erase that podcast?

[George Severis]

No, that is. That is a defining podcast that put

[Sam Taggart]

us on the map. Such a little queen. During that episode, do you remember you were carrying your laptop around your, like, Paris hotel room and smoking cigarettes while recording?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, I remember deeply apologizing.

[Sam Taggart]

You did also deeply apologize.

[George Severis]

No, that was a very beautiful, touching episode. We were all on Zoom. It was.

[Sam Taggart]

We were all on zoom. It was COVID lockdown era, and we had not quite. It was like, one of the very early episodes. We had not even quite figured out, like, the rhythm of the podcast yet.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

And in comes Jeremy O. Harris, and he apologizes for being your high school bully.

[George Severis]

It's true.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

And, you know, things have been amazing ever since.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Well, no, it's just kind of crazy because I have a lot of friends who are like, oh, my God, do you watch Listen to Radiolab? I'm like, I've been on it. And they're like, never heard of your episode. And I'm like, I would like to think that that episode was a major episode. It would be, like, in the hall of fame.

[Sam Taggart]

I think it is in the hall of Fame, but it was before we had as many listeners as we maybe did later on. So it's a real niche hall of Fame episode.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Okay. Okay.

[George Severis]

It is complicated because in my mind, I. Everyone has heard it.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

But I agree. Like, I'll bring it up to people, and they're like, what?

[Sam Taggart]

I would say in that era, you were basically doing us a favor. You were like, let's have a phone call. And then we published.

[George Severis]

I argue, in most eras, you're doing us a favor.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, I still, to this day think you guys are way more famous, because I think people who make people laugh are more famous.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, now we are famous, to be fair. But we weren't then. Now we've had Kathy Griffin on your peer.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Wow.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. On the D list with me.

[George Severis]

What?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

I think. Don't you think it's time someone did a current My Life on the D list? And I want it to be like, it's like an aspiring influencer. Actually, this is something you could potentially write and direct. An aspiring influencer that, like, really wants to be, like, a lifestyle influencer that is doing my life on the D list and is getting, like, the Worst, most flop possible brand deals.

[George Severis]

But it's so hard to tell because everyone is on the D list now. Like, there's four people who are genuinely famous.

[Sam Taggart]

There's no A list.

[George Severis]

There's no A list. Unless you were famous in 1995.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. Timothee Chalamet and Timothy Chalamet. Maybe he's on the B list now. Listen, it's not the Michael K. No, I'm just kidding.

[Sam Taggart]

You think Michael B. Jordan is not a list?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, Michael B. Jordan is a list. He has an Oscar. Yeah.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, that doesn't mean. Well, so does you know Ariana DeBose.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I love Ariana DeBose.

[Sam Taggart]

I do, too.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

When Twitter did their list of, like, who did the best performance, I was very happy that somebody who were like, Ariana DeBose is in the top three

[Sam Taggart]

of best supporting actress wins.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. Of the last five, to be clear,

[Sam Taggart]

she's incredibly talented performer.

[George Severis]

And she's amazing in that film.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Of course. Good friend.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh. Oh, okay.

[George Severis]

So I can already tell this is gonna be a bit difficult considering your connection to fame. You know, sort of this podcast.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

We don't hold back. We can kind of say whatever we want.

[Sam Taggart]

We can just be like. We can. We can call anyone a flop. And it's. I just think that celebrated.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Listen, I'm a flop.

[Sam Taggart]

That's not true.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I totally celebrate that.

[George Severis]

So when. When. So you're. So you're Ariana Devos's close friend.

[Sam Taggart]

Did you guys, like, get brunch?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Did.

[George Severis]

She was after.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Ariana still has an outfit of mine.

[George Severis]

Oh.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

From. Because we. We have.

[George Severis]

Did you guys hook up?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, we're both queer performers.

[George Severis]

Did you hear.

[Sam Taggart]

Did you go straight? Angela Bassett did the thing.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I wish I had. I talked to her about it a lot. That's what I was wondering.

[George Severis]

The week dial. Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, but we aren't. No, we aren't super close. We have the same agent and we hang out sometimes. But I really like her. We're theater girls. I mean, I support the theater girls. The theater girls who make the transition into film and television. Let me tell you, that is a long road. And the people who do it fast.

[Sam Taggart]

Sarah Pigeon.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Sarah Pigeon. She's. She's on the fast track. She's on the crazy. I saw her the other day with that blonde hair, and I said, you're never going brunette again, are you? You're never going brunette again.

[George Severis]

She's gonna look at pictures of herself and say, I don't know her.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, it's dead. Yes.

[Sam Taggart]

Which I am. I don't even know her. And I'm like, I need to send her a muffin basket to congratulate her.

[George Severis]

When I watch her, I'm like, I need to be a beautiful blonde woman.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Okay, so I was going to say this. I don't give a fuck about Carolyn Bessette. And I definitely don't care about JFK Jr. Didn't know who the fuck they were. Like, kind of Knew that, like, JFK Jr. Died in a plane crash. And honestly, my biggest note for the show, Ryan, I hope you're listening. Why aren't you making it about the plane? Right. Like, they keep going back to the plane as though it's like this like mythic thing. Is that the plane is like, no, the. The Kennedy curse is the thing. The Kennedys are cursed people because they're. They did some cursed behavior. But like, all. There are so many more interesting deaths. Like, you know the one that died doing ski football.

[Sam Taggart]

Yes.

[George Severis]

There's this thing, a ski football when

[Sam Taggart]

you're, you know, Rosemary Kennedy.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yes. Well, that's a dark one.

[George Severis]

What's. What happened to her?

[Sam Taggart]

The bottom ized.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Lobotomy. So I'm like, why? Like, but why is the show, like, why is it acting like, oh, like they got on this plane and the plane. No, it's like, no, this family is cursed. In the episode when they go to. I forget the name of their place. Like, whatever their Camelot was. Yes. And they're like, we're going to all go like, like on the water, on the little ski. I was like, that's crazy. That lean into that.

[Sam Taggart]

Yes.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Being the reason why he died.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, but it's complicated. The curse is complicated because on the one hand, yes, they're cursed. On the other hand, they do all this risk seeking behavior not to victim blame, not to literally be a Republican during the.

[George Severis]

I was going to say the same thing, though.

[Sam Taggart]

But it is. But like, at every point they're like, you are being warned. Don't get on this plane because there's a huge rainstorm. And guess what? You can't drive it.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I haven't watched an episode yet.

[George Severis]

And then we need prep for the Kennedys.

[Sam Taggart]

No, we need prep for the Kennedy.

[George Severis]

We need weird disasters.

[Sam Taggart]

Yes.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I got to the Battery park episode and I was like, I think I've seen all I need to see. This is who I am.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, the big secret is that neither of them is an interesting person, which is why it's such an incredible challenge for the Ryan Murphy team to make a show about them because they are Just two stunning, beautiful, gorgeous people that fell in love because they were like, you're hot as hell. You're a Kennedy, and you're kind of a hot blonde.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And also a cokehead.

[Sam Taggart]

And also a cokehead, which I think

[George Severis]

find adds so much texture. I'm, like, so glad that she's a cokehead.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

But they don't lean into that enough.

[George Severis]

I know. They should show it.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And also, there was a woman on Twitter. I think it's Heidi B. Moore. Hope it's you. Maybe I just made up your name. But she did this whole thing. It was like, why aren't we talking about the fact she changed her style when she started dating him and constantly had this sort of, like, insecurity thing where, like, she was a different girl before she worked at Calvin Klein. A different girl when she started dating him. And I'm like, that is a thing that's interesting to me. All I will say is the whatever version of Carolyn Bessette, Little Miss Sarah Pigeon is playing. I want to be.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And I also see myself in her so much. Do you know how mean I was? My fiancee, when he asked me to marry him. Crazy. I told him no. Did not for as long as she did, but I did tell him.

[Sam Taggart]

Now you've been engaged for 15 years.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

100%.

[Sam Taggart]

What's going on there?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Well, so I really believe in long engagements. Really? Yes. Yes.

[George Severis]

Tell me why.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I think that, like, you really know your person when you're engaged for a long time.

[George Severis]

Really?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

It's the potential. It's like the. The right before. The space in the right before is where you know someone best. And when you do the thing, it's like, well, where. Like Angela Bassett from here? Yeah, like Angela Bassett. You don't want to go Angela Bassett mode.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I don't want to go Angela Bassett. No. I think that one of the things I like. We own an apartment together.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

We own art together. Right. Like, those are already like, sort of these, like, this big sort of financial entanglement.

[Sam Taggart]

And you own a big cause statue that's like Mickey Mouse.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Exactly.

[Sam Taggart]

And it says, like, you. And that's, like, in your entryway carrying bags of.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

We actually have something that's like, gay enviable. We have a SALMAN tour.

[Sam Taggart]

Wow. So when did he become the hot. The hot gay guy on set?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Because a couple years ago, gay guys can't paint anymore.

[Sam Taggart]

I know.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

It's crazy. Gay guys suck at painting now.

[Sam Taggart]

It's like every book cover, SALMAN tour, every, like, you know, sort of like the COVID of, like, A brochure for a new boutique hotel.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

The film Joyland Salmentour painting. Yeah, he's the best.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay, so you have a Salmatour composer.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

We have Salmantour. We have a Jonathan Lyndon chase.

[George Severis]

Wow.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

3. We have some good art. Anyway. Wow. I literally just told people to rob me.

[Sam Taggart]

Anyway.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And we will.

[Sam Taggart]

And tell us your address. We'll include it in the episode.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, but I think that because of that, I think there could be nothing more embarrassing if we were to disentangle. Now, that would be normal. It's great. We had to figure out how to split assets. If I had to figure out how to call all these people who flew to my destination wedding, it's like, yeah, it didn't work out, it would be like a real issue.

[Sam Taggart]

I agree.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And I feel like the. The lessons and questions we've asked each other over these last two and a half years. It hasn't been 16, it's been two and a half. Have been really, really good questions to have about, like, what does it mean to like, date an artist during a writer strike? Right. Like, like, you know, what are the. What are the other like, sort of stresses and pains of like. Like, what does it mean to date a partner who goes to jail? You know, like, like, you know, all these are things that he's had to deal with for me. Right. Chaos, chaos, chaos.

[Sam Taggart]

And you went to jail for murder, right?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Do you agree?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Nope.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Not at all. I think murder is important. Gays murder. Really? Well, don't paint what we murder.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, it is true. There's more gays murder than paint. Well, I would say in the grand scheme of things, that's really true. Yeah. They can certainly do photography.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yes.

[Sam Taggart]

They can do kind of like a one act play.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

We love photography and we love one act plays.

[Sam Taggart]

Yes.

[George Severis]

Are you allowed to talk about the jail?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, I just wrote an essay about it.

[George Severis]

What was that? Like, what happened?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Honestly, this is gonna sound really fucked up. White people would pay for it. I could get white people to pay to do what I did.

[Sam Taggart]

Because it's like a writing retreat.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

It was 100% the best retreat ever.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, I wanted to run by a headline about you that we saw. Playwright Jeremy O. Harris reveals he lost 10 pounds and read 23 books while imprisoned in Japan for 22 days.

[George Severis]

So that's more than one book a day.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yes.

[George Severis]

And how long were these books?

[Sam Taggart]

We're talking novellas, so our heads.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

So one of the things I got at the very end, which really helped me, like, boost up the number really fast. I got the Norton Anthology of English Literature, Part 1.

[Sam Taggart]

So here's a question. Was there a Barnes and Noble on site?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I think there was one down the street. Well, it's a very literate culture, like being in Japan. Like, they really love the Analog and they love books. And I was there to make a film. And so the people I was making the film with came and visited me. They brought me really nice clothes, really nice clothes to work because they wanted me to be comfortable. And they brought me books every day. Said photo books. I had, like, plays.

[Sam Taggart]

Wait a minute. Are you counting photo books in the 20?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, I'm not counting photo books. I'm not counting a photo book.

[Sam Taggart]

You're reading coffee table books. Reading the Kim Kardashian selfie book. You're saying, check another one.

[George Severis]

You're looking at 100 pictures of Rihanna and saying, did it.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, no, I read Aphrobrine's. Or I'm going to say, say it wrong. Afrobens or a note. Oronkano or Oronico. It is that play is. I mean, that it's like a novella. It is one of the best novellas I've ever read. Is. It is. Aphra Ben, one of the first female writers in the English language, literally decided to, like, write a story about why we need to abolish slavery from the point of view of a woman who met, like, an African slave prince.

[Sam Taggart]

And you read that while in prison?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was amazing.

[Sam Taggart]

So have you released the reading list? The Jeremy Oharas prison reading list?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I'm going to.

[Sam Taggart]

We would love to be involved in that if you want.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I reread Kafka on the Shore. Realized.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah. You hate it.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. Not very good. Not very good. Very. I have questions.

[Sam Taggart]

I know. You know, people have been turning on him. I feel like it's. I guess, you know, it used to be that was kind of a sign that you're a serious reader when you're, like, 24, 25 and. Or like, you know, when. 1Q. What was that? 1.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

1Q 84.

[Sam Taggart]

1Q 84. I feel like that was such a, like, sign. Like, I'm serious because it's fat. Don't hear about him anymore.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

100. You hear about him running. We love that he runs. Yeah. Part of the run club.

[Sam Taggart]

Right. That's his whole thing. And sort of like how George Saunders whole thing is being like posi vibes only.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. Well, so I also read a book that was. That I did love by another famous writer who's never going out of Cell. I read Clara and the Sun. A book. I. I hate books about robot children.

[Sam Taggart]

No, he's the real deal, Claire.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And the sun is so fucking good.

[George Severis]

I like that book.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I was like, gag. I was like, gag. Taika Waititi. Can't wait for the movie.

[George Severis]

Oh, they're making a movie of it.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. Waititi making the movie.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah. Let's hope his wife, Rita Ora, plays Clara.

[George Severis]

That would be nice.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I. Another friend.

[George Severis]

Oh, my God.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

We're never gonna get through this.

[Sam Taggart]

Please give her our best and tell her we would love to have her on the pod.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Did you see what she looked like at the Vanity Fair party?

[Sam Taggart]

No.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Stunning. Unrecognizable.

[Sam Taggart]

Did you read the article about how the Vanity Fair party lighting was so bad?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I did read that.

[Sam Taggart]

That people's publicists are, like, trying to get photos taken down.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

That's crazy.

[George Severis]

I thought people looked good.

[Sam Taggart]

I agree. I don't know.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Are people just Kris Jenner.

[Sam Taggart]

Do you know what it. Well, yeah.

[George Severis]

Well, that's a big part of it.

[Sam Taggart]

But I also think people are, like, excited to be, you know, the new Mark Deducci, the new editor in chief. Vanity Fair, is a gay guy. And I think people are, like, excited to be mean about a gay guy.

[George Severis]

Well, right. They're testing.

[Sam Taggart]

Which is very vintage.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

It's good to be mean to gays again.

[Sam Taggart]

I know. It's about time.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Listen, I. As you know, I started it.

[Sam Taggart]

I know. That's right. By bullying Sam.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

You invented it.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. I really. I think that's important.

[Sam Taggart]

That's really important. And you've really learned your lesson now. You're going to prison.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

So when you were.

[George Severis]

So when they're like, hey, guess what? You're going to prison, like, emotionally, were you, like, wait, this sucks?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

The first thought I had was, okay, but when do I get to go to dinner? Like, legitimately, Like, I'm not even kidding. I legitimately kept thinking, like, but you're not serious.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah. And it sounds like they were sort of like, yeah, we have an omakaze dinner all set up for you.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No. I was genuinely like, no, but this is crazy. And the biggest thing that I was shocked to learn was that, unlike America, if you're arrested abroad, in most places, you don't get to, like, call a lawyer and, like, put up bail to leave that night. Like, it's like, they're like, no, we get to keep you until we're done.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Investigating. Crazy. I didn't get to make a call for 23 days.

[George Severis]

You didn't make A call the whole time?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, you don't get to make a call.

[George Severis]

That is crazy.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

They told me that.

[Sam Taggart]

So how do people know to visit you?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Well, they found me.

[George Severis]

Did your socials team take over?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, no. They just. Someone was waiting for me at the airport and were like, he's not here.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah. Ariana DeBose.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Ariana was waiting with a sign. Multiple flowers, balloons.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, she was practicing herself.

[George Severis]

She was like, japanese police did the thing.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, that's what she put it. That's how she put it together. She was scatting. It was. It came to her. No. Yeah, it was like this thing where 36 hours later. Because, like, they were like, you have to give us a statement. I was like, I will not give a statement until I speak to a lawyer. And they're like, you don't get that.

[George Severis]

They're like, that's your statement now.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Exactly. And I was like. I was like, no, I need to speak to a lawyer. No, you don't get a lawyer. I was like, what about my phone call? You don't get that either.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And I was like, I refuse. I was like, call the embassy.

[Sam Taggart]

You're like, can I tweet?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, exactly. They were like, yeah, there's no. There's no recourse. But then, luckily, I have a very smart husband who is not a husband yet, but who's also a lawyer, who, with the help of my friends on the ground, found, like, a lawyer in Okinawa. That lawyer came to, like, called all the jails, found out where I was. Oh, my God.

[Sam Taggart]

They had to investigate.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

That's crazy.

[Sam Taggart]

So I'm sorry. If you hadn't done that, like, what's the plan? You just, like, stay there.

[George Severis]

You've been chilling there.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Well, I would've stayed there for 23 days, because here's the thing. Love my lawyer. You were great. But your lawyer doesn't talk to the prosecutor with you or the investigator with you. Like, you are doing all that by yourself for 23 days.

[Sam Taggart]

But your sentence was 23 days.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Because I read there was no sentence.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, but I.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

They get to investigate you for 23 days. Here's what happens if you get arrested in Japan.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

You get arrested. They have 72 hours to have you meet with the judge and the pro or prosecutor. And the judge. The prosecutor meets with you and is like, here are your charges. What did you do? You make a statement to them.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And then they decide based on your statement if they believe you and if they want to investigate you. Obviously, my statement was, I'm Innocent. They were like, no, you aren't. And so then they.

[Sam Taggart]

You're like, interesting perspective.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

That's weird. We have a few different ideas. Yeah. And then they sent me to the. The prosecutor. I'm the prosecutor. I literally thought I had won her over. I thought that I was like, listen, babe, like, obviously this isn't mine. Like, I'm a good person.

[Sam Taggart]

Thinking, you want a woman.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

She had a bob. I was like, done. Yeah, she was young. She had a bob. She knew how to pronounce Loewe.

[George Severis]

How did that come up?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Because they were asking me about my travel. Cause they were thinking I was a drug smuggler. So they were like, you've traveled a lot. And I was like, oh, I went to this thing for this Loewe dinner. I went to this thing for this.

[Sam Taggart]

Can't with you.

[George Severis]

That's so funny.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

But they were looking at my thing. But again, I have to talk to a translator who then translates it for her. And so he's trying to figure out what the translation is for Loewe. And she's like, it's pronounced Loewe. And I was like, so you literally speak English? And so I was like, she's my friend. We go to the next. The next day I go meet up with the judge, which also is its own sort of like, I'm writing about all this for people to read. But, like, it was like this really weird, like, sort of like Adult Swim episode. It felt like. Because, like, again, everything in Japan was like. Their height of technology is 2004. Maybe this video was made in 1997. Yeah, like, because they're all hardware, right? They never made, like, software.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, I see.

[Public Investing Ad Voice]

I see.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. So it's like Sony. It's like, you know, all these, like, you know, the TVs and shit and all the technology, like that, like, houses stuff. But they didn't, like, like, get better software. They just sort of like stopped there. And so they put in like, a laser disc into, like, this thing. And I watch the videos, like, so you've been arrested. This is what happened. It's like this, like, they act it out and it's like, it's so crazy. So you have to watch this video. Then you go and you figure, you sit and you talk to a judge. The judge is like, so the prosecutor has recommended that you. That you have to stay for nine days. Because also you meet up with the judge in those 72 hours, and then he decides if you had to stay for nine days so they can investigate you. I'm thinking she's gonna be like we're throwing this out. This isn't a real case. She he was like she decided that you need to be investigated immediately. She also thinks that you are a threat and so you shouldn't have visitors. I said say what?

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[Sam Taggart]

If your crime is drug smuggling, which again, you're innocent of, how would you be a threat inside a jail?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Because maybe my drug smuggling friends are outside.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, and they're bringing.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And I'm whispering things to them about where other drugs are or who, you know, whatever the thing is, you know. And I was like, this is ridiculous. Like, she knows that I wear Loewe. I had a Tory Burch purse with me.

[Sam Taggart]

I mean, I have a dinner.

[George Severis]

Certainly.

[Sam Taggart]

I've certainly never met anyone in Loewe who has done drugs.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Neither have I. That's one of the things I love the most about Loewe.

[Sam Taggart]

No, it's for sober people.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. 100%.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Spanish. I was like, okay. And he was like, tell me about yourself. And I was like, I was a Japanese literature minor. Like, I really love Japan. Like, and I'm like, bowing.

[Sam Taggart]

I mean, talk about gay guy. You think you're gonna charm them by saying you were a Japanese literature miner?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And guess what I did. Guess what I did? He said, you were. Who were your favorite writers?

[George Severis]

Oh.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And I said, okay, let's go down the list.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah. You said, I hate Kafka on the shore.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. So let's start there. Kinzabura Away is one of my favorite writers ever. I was like, yukio Mishima has been in the background of my phone for a Decade. He wasn't impressed by those. He's like, those are. We all know those. And then I was like, you know, Convenience Store Woman is one of my favorite books. Earthlings changed my life. Like, you know, I love. And he was like, that's my favorite book. And he and I had this whole connection about this one writer. And I was like, I'm reading this book right now. My friends just brought it to me. It's by Suzumi Suzuki. It's called Gifted. He was like, she just won a prize two years ago. I haven't read that one yet. And he's like, you know what? You get visitors.

[Sam Taggart]

And this person is the judge. Is the judge.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yes, the judge youe're having book talk.

[Sam Taggart]

You are recommending books. You're giving a. You're giving a social justice reading list to the judge.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yes. Yes.

[Sam Taggart]

Wow.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And he. I think, like me, he gave me visitors again. Unlike the mean prosecutor lady with the bob. And then I got nine days. And after those nine days, they get. She can choose to opt in to. Because you go and meet with her every day. Every other day. And the guy who's investigating you, who was really hot. Nice. The guy who investigated me was very hot. So I like talking to him.

[Sam Taggart]

Sure.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And he like. Yeah. So we would talk. And then at the end of that week, they were like. So you had to say nine more days. Because we tell him, gotten all your tests back? And I was like, what do you mean you haven't gotten all my tests back? They're like the drug test you asked for us to give you on the day. First day, we still haven't gotten back because it's Japan. Everything's analog. It takes two weeks. I was like, what? So, like, you had to say nine more days? And I realized it's just like kind of their tactic. Like, you stay like, they're gonna keep you for 23 days if you get arrested for drugs.

[Sam Taggart]

So here's my question. When it was reported in the New York Times, did your team, like, did you want it to be public so that people would know?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No. Here's what happened. So I told them the first day they arrested me. I said, drug test me. Those aren't mine. I promise you, they're not mine. Drug test me. They drug tested me. It was negative. They went through my entire phone over 23 days. Nothing was in. Was like, chill. And they basically had no case. It seemed like they could have still charged me if they wanted to, but they didn't. And I think that because there was no Evidence to really stick anything on me. Their way of getting back to me from the customs agent and the prosecutor was to release a press release. Was my full name minute? Because I know there are. So, like, over. I was there for 23 days. I saw everyone that came in left out. And, like, you know, I was put in a cell. And you couldn't talk between cells? There was a cell. There was, like, a guy who kept trying to talk to me who spoke English, who was Taiwanese, and then there was another guy who was in there who was, like, French English, who tried to talk to me. I knew he was gay. He had Aussie bum underwear on. Oh, my God.

[Sam Taggart]

To be in jail and see Aussie bum underwear.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. I was like, that guy's gay. He's like 6 5, British with a French accent. Like, definitely, like, whoa. Yeah, you're turned on a little. Yeah, he was there, and so I clocked him. And then there was another guy who was really hot who was in the other end, who I asked one day, like, do you play basketball? Because he was, like, really tall, and he was like, no. Turns out that guy who's in the other cell and the Aussie woman guy are husbands.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, my God.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Were arrested together. Yes. And they told me because they DM me when I. When they got out, they're like, sorry, this happened to you. They got more time than I did. Like, a lot more time.

[George Severis]

How much time?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Like, more. I don't want to put all their business out. I'm gonna get. No one knows who they are, so.

[Sam Taggart]

Do they recognize you?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, yeah, because, like, they Google, like, I see.

[Sam Taggart]

I see.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And, yeah, I don't know how they knew who I was, but, yeah, they

[George Severis]

were like, google me.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Exactly. No, no. I mean, I guess. I guess, like, it would. Because I told my cellmate because my fiance sent me pictures, and they were like, there was one funny date. So I became really good friends with my cellmates, Tomo and Ruki. And they did not speak. They spoke, like, very little English. But Tomo, I was showing him my pictures, and he was like, oh, these are so cool. And he was like, who is this man? Is this best friend? And I was like, oh, yeah. And it was like, more and more pictures of us, like, hugging, hugging, kissing. And he was like, best friend. I was like, no, fiance. There was a woman blurred out in the background, and Ruki was like, that fiance? I said, no, this is my fiance. And then they were like. And then there was a picture of me, like, at an opening or something. They were like, Very rich man. I'm not gonna do the accent. That would be not good. They're like, very rich man. And I said, no. And they said, what do you do? I told them I wrote plays, and then they asked if they could read them. So I told them my name and stuff.

[Sam Taggart]

I see.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

So I wonder if that's how they found out. I don't really know how they found out. Anyway, they messaged me and told me that she really threw the book at every single person that got out after me. Like, all of them, she threw the book at. They can't come back to Japan for five, five to ten years, maybe longer. And she released a press release and didn't say their names. So I'm the only one they released a press release with, like, my full name.

[Sam Taggart]

She said, like, bob woman.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Bob woman. Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

So, wow. It's interesting, you know.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

So my punishment was that, like, I would be globally shamed.

[Sam Taggart]

Do you think she's jealous of you for going to the Loewe dinner? Maybe because she's kind of like a fashion girl.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

I mean, she's dreamed of fashion her whole life.

[Sam Taggart]

I mean, she has a bob. She recognized Loewe. She's saying, I'm sorry, this f slur gets to go. Not me.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, I think that might be.

[Sam Taggart]

But I have a Bob.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

That might be it.

[George Severis]

Wow, there is just so much jealousy in this damn world.

[Sam Taggart]

We found another headline about you. Jeremy O. Harris drunkenly called OpenAI's Sam Altman a Nazi at the Vanity Fair Oscar party. True or false?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I wasn't that drunk.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And I didn't call him a Nazi. I said, are you excited about being remembered as, like, basically the Goebbels of the Nazi party? I meant to say Frick, but.

[Sam Taggart]

And did you. Was there context, or did you just go up to him and say that?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

We had been there all day, and I felt like a sort of. Like I was being asked to consent to like a sort of politic at a party that I did not consent to. And I felt like, you know, after watching Paul Thomas Anderson win so many Oscars, I had to channel my interview on Apple and say, you know, kick me under the table while you won't. I won't shut up.

[Sam Taggart]

I won't shut up.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I won't shut up.

[Sam Taggart]

So after all these years, you're still bullying gay guys?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I am. Name?

[George Severis]

Sam.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, wow.

[George Severis]

Wow.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Well, that's why you should talk to him about this. I did go up to him at the middle of the party while he was talking to you, a famous gay guy, and said, I have something to say.

[George Severis]

Well, honestly, it's like, about time. Like, it's so weird that he's not bullied.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Well, it's weird. No, it's weird that so many people who are actively destroying the world are just there and everyone's just sort of like, completely. And the thing I will say about, like, you know, at least Bezos brings Lauren around. Cause Lauren, that's a look. There's something going on there.

[Sam Taggart]

I see what you're saying.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

You know what I mean?

[George Severis]

It's certainly something going on.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

It's so camp. And also, he at least owns a television.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, no.

[Sam Taggart]

I was shocked that Sam Altman was inv. What is the T?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Like, you'd have to talk to. Listen, you know what? Here's actually the thing. I will say I talked to Mark about this. I said. I basically said, like, I get it for your magazine, right? Like, me being in the same room as Sam Altman, like, was bound to make something interesting happen.

[Sam Taggart]

It's a vibe.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

It's a vibe. It's a vibe. And it's like, again, I think that, like, if you are in the failing, like, you know, publications business and, like, your party is, like, the main source of, like, income and attention for your. For this global brand every year, why not bring someone who's, like, you know, causing a genocide to a party full

[Sam Taggart]

of artists, sort of see what happens

[Jeremy O. Harris]

and see what happens. And like, you know, I know other people were, like, dying to say things. I think that, like, maybe I said this to my friends. I think a lot of times black people are always the first ones to get. Get to get themselves in trouble in these situations. We love to be like, we're all gonna do a thing, right? And everyone's like, yeah, yeah, you go do it.

[Sam Taggart]

No, you're absolutely right.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Because all these people, all the rest

[Sam Taggart]

of the people that were around there with you, they're. They're tweeting about how they hate AI.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

But then in the moment, they're like, oh, my God, I love when you did the. You know, when I did, like, Simpsons animation style selfie of myself using Chat GPT.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. I feel like Eartha Kit maybe, like, you know, like how Eartha Kit, like, like, you know, popped off at Lady Bird Johnson and, like, then was blacklisted. Like, I. I do wonder if I'm putting myself in one of those situations. I doubt it, though, because, like, again, like, who the fuck cares? Like, like, blacklist me from what? Like, like, well, right, Like Basically, like, Warner Brothers is being bought by a fucking, like, like, insane person who's in the pocket of the president. The AI company he had, he. This guy owns is like one of many that are draining all the water from our country and also bombing, like, half of the. Helping the Department of War bomb half of the Middle East. Like, we kind of have nothing to live for right now. And if we aren't throwing rocks at people like that, if we are still trying to like, save an access to like 5 pennies, then, like, we might as well just like, all kill ourselves. Which is also what I told him. I was like, I don't know why you haven't killed, like, why you can't. Why you. How you can look in the mirror every day knowing that your technology might be used to, like, blow up another 177 girls and haven't already decided to kill yourself.

[Sam Taggart]

And he said.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

You said that? Yeah.

[George Severis]

Wow, that's awesome.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And he said. He said, like, sort of robotically. He was like, well, I don't want to kill myself, actually. I really believe in the rule of law. And for me, you know, I don't think any company should be bigger than the government. And many of many companies have worked with the government. Government. It was really crazy.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, so you really had a back and forth.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, and I was really trying to, like. Because I was like. I was like, listen, like, again, another reason I'm not going up to Jeff Bezos is like, I can't talk to him. Gay to gay, right? Like. Like he's doing that thing with Lauren. I don't know what that is. I like to look at it. I'm like, this is crazy to look at. I will watch from the side, but, like, another gay guy I can. I think I can go and talk to. I know a lot of us have the tism. I can navigate the tism. Whatever he has is something beyond that.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And it was so, like. It's like, you know, even when I talked to him about greed, he was like, I don't have very much money. I was like, you literally do. You literally do. You were like, like unequivocally one of the most powerful people in the world right now. And you were telling me that, like, you had no power to say no to the president when Anthropic did. And then he was like, so you care more about Claude than you like Claude more? Is that what you're saying? I'm like, I don't like any of you. None of you should exist. None of you should Be working with these people. All of your heads are quitting and being like, hey, guys, I think we just, like, created the atomic bomb, but, like, 5 billion times worse. Sorry about it. Going to go read for five years before it's all over,

[Sam Taggart]

so go ahead.

[George Severis]

Well, I'm. First of all, I just want to say I'm. That's so cool. I'm so glad you, like, said something.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Also, I want it to be known I didn't tell the New York Post about it. I didn't, like, need this to come out. I wasn't like. I wasn't like. Like, you guys know that this was booked weeks before. Wasn't like, I was like, I'm going to go to studio lab and I'm going to set the record straight. Literally, it's just something that happened.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I'm also not gonna shy away from talking about it because I'm like, why the fuck would I? But because I want other people to do this at more parties.

[George Severis]

Well, that's the thing. I'm so confused as to how people are so close to these psychopaths and, like, don't do anything. I mean, obviously easier said than done.

[Sam Taggart]

I mean, that is quite literally, what's the Hannah Arendt, the banal. That's literally what the banality of evil is. And I actually. It's funny. I'm actually clocking in myself that my reaction, like other sort of libs, is quote, unquote, why was he invited? But I think you're absolutely right that he should be invited. And then more people should create drama like that. The whole point is like, yes, if he's invited and then he's treated like any foreign dignitary, then nothing is stopping him from going to these parties. But what if he's invited and, you know, Cate Blanchett punches him in the face?

[George Severis]

Yeah, that would be huge.

[Sam Taggart]

That would be great. And you could probably make it happen.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, I could ask her.

[Sam Taggart]

Because you're working with her friend.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Another friend. Love her down. And also, that would be also crazy of me. Right. I just did a show with Cate Blanchett where I told her you had to take to the streets. Like, look where I wrote for her to say to an audience in la, philharmonic, take to the streets. Do not stand idle. Like, awaken your sacrum and do something, anything, scream. Right. Because, like, it was about Egmont, who got, like, fucking martyred for, like, trying to stand up, like, as the Inquisition was happening. And for me to, like, write that and be like, well, my work here is Done. You know, it would have made the thing that. Again, another thing that Sam said to me. I'm not this Sam.

[George Severis]

Sam Altman.

[Sam Taggart]

Sam Altman.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Sam Altman said to me, he was like, well, you could be outside protesting, but instead you're at this party. And I said, oh, bitch. And I said, I protested my work. I protested my work. And like. And again, if I would. If I were to be someone who's like, writing work that's saying this at the LA Philharmonic, I would be potentially speaking to the crowd, except for the five people every night that walked out discussing.

[Sam Taggart]

Also, you're accosting the CEO that is pro.

[George Severis]

That's.

[Sam Taggart]

So he wants you to protest without him being physically involved.

[George Severis]

He's like, hello. Protest on the street.

[Sam Taggart]

He's like, you can email me. Here's my card.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Exactly, Exactly.

[George Severis]

So crazy. I can't believe he hit you with a. Like, why aren't you posting more Defense. Like, that is so crazy.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Oh, and also, this is the other thing I want to tell my friends who just post. I, like, I got in trouble by a lot of people. Like, you didn't post about this enough. You didn't post about that enough. Guess what, guys? I was literally at dinners with CAA heads being like, like, why don't you care about Palestine? Literally, actually, factually, like, I. And I felt like I could do better work talking to people irl about, like, the. A global crisis that actually is really close to people's politic and really close to, like, how they grew up, how they see their identity. Like, it isn't just like black and white. It's not like, conceptual for some people. It is like their lived experience. And I think I made a lot more headway with certain people by talking to them and leaning in over dinner than I would have posting things.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, that's like the entire defense from kind of like out of touch powerful people is like, why join the woke mob when we should be having conversations with people we disagree with or whatever.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

And so it's sort of like, okay, well, let's have those conversations. But it's gonna be a little awkward.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

And you're gonna have to kind of, you know, eat the creme brulee with a little clenched jaw while I explain to you what's going on.

[George Severis]

Damn, you're like Thanksgiving every event. I love that.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Well, I do think. I don't know. I think that I. I'm a double Gemini, but I'm also a Cancer Mars.

[Sam Taggart]

We're both cancers.

[George Severis]

Cancers.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. And so I feel For a lot of people. I feel like I can see every side of every argument. And I do think that, like, I am, like, my friend Rastan Batmanglish, who is a big fan.

[George Severis]

Really?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, big fan. Wants to be on the Pod.

[George Severis]

Well, we love him.

[Sam Taggart]

We would love to have him on the pod.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

You should have him on the pod.

[Sam Taggart]

I heard. A long time ago, I heard a story about him. I know who introduced him to the podcast, and they listened to it in the car.

[George Severis]

Really?

[Sam Taggart]

Yes.

[George Severis]

I shared my nudes with him on Scrub Rough.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

You did?

[George Severis]

Well.

[Sam Taggart]

We're keeping that in.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Did he like it?

[George Severis]

He responded with, like, nice.

[Sam Taggart]

He responded. Thumbs up, exclamation point.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No address.

[George Severis]

Well, I wasn't really looking. I was just like. Well, for us to. Masks. I'll share my.

[Sam Taggart]

Sure.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Whatever.

[Sam Taggart]

He's a foundational gay guy. It's like. Like, without him. He's. He really is, you know, the. The. The Harvey Milk of all gay guys in the 2010.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Wait, so what. What is Ed Droasty?

[George Severis]

Well.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, Ed Droste is sort of the Lucian, the Sigmund Freud, because he's now a therapist.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I think he might be retired.

[Sam Taggart]

I know. I saw that. Well, you know, being a psychoanalyst for gay guys is like a hobby you can kind of pick up and put back down. It's like our birthright. Like, I am, in some ways, a psychoanalyst.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

That's what we're doing right now.

[Sam Taggart]

I can do it. Like, I can practice if I want to or not.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

This is the podcast that all the girlies are going to now. I think she's Freud granddaughter.

[George Severis]

Yes.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay, let's talk about her. Let's talk. No, you don't want to talk. You don't want to talk about.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I'm not friends with her. We can talk about it.

[Sam Taggart]

Do you know about this?

[George Severis]

No. Well, I sort of.

[Sam Taggart]

Bella Freud.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

I have beef with Bella Freud.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

What is your beef? Let it out.

[Sam Taggart]

I'm, like, say one interesting thing. Challenge. You're related to Sigmund Freud and Lucian Freud, two of the, like, true geniuses of the 20th century. And you're releasing crew necks that say, like, slay on them. That's your contribution to society. And then you're getting luminaries on your podcast and not asking them a single interesting question. And somehow, by the way, she did an ad for Claude. She did sponcon for Claude.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Shut the fuck up.

[Sam Taggart]

She did sponcon for Anthropic, but I'm not even gonna go there. Ask your friend Cate Blanchett. Went on the podcast. One of the best we've got. Ask her something interesting.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, you're Bella Freud. But I bet it was really comfortable for.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, that's the thing.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I think that one of the things I love about it.

[Sam Taggart]

She's the therapist of 60 year old Nepo B.

[George Severis]

What a sentence.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Kate does love to lie. She loves to sprawl.

[George Severis]

How do you mean?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Like, I think if there, if there was a bed here and Kate was here, she would. Oh, oh.

[George Severis]

This is actually like the famous person thing. If you like a true famous person, you can tell because they will like get like this completely. There will be people standing that want a seat and they will not move an inch.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yes.

[George Severis]

I have had famous people sit on my fucking couch and like sit up. Like more people need to sit down.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, Kate has a way of sitting that looks so comfortable, so relaxed, so free.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

She also apparently. Kate, I love you. I know this is gossip.

[Sam Taggart]

She's listening.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

She's never got something I heard from someone else. But apparently after we did our show in Palm Springs, Rostam was staying with me in a house I rented and she had lunch with my friend the next day. She was like, I met. So I met Rostam. Very lovely. So I'm assuming he's the boyfriend when the husband's away, which I thought was a good.

[Sam Taggart]

She was like too woke. Yeah, she's like, so you are. Fuck it.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I just like. I love that as a way of like understanding, like, you know, like open relationships, queerness. He is not the boyfriend when the husband's away. But it was very cute that she like had that thought and didn't say it to us, you know.

[George Severis]

That's very nice.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, it's like a mom.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, definitely.

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[George Severis]

Should we talk?

[Sam Taggart]

You have a let's talk about the movie.

[George Severis]

Yeah, when is it coming out, by the way?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

April 17th.

[George Severis]

That's crazy.

[Sam Taggart]

That is when our last guest movie is also coming out. You guys are literally in competition.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

We're not in competition. It's an arupsia. Blue Heron.

[George Severis]

Blue Heron, Blue Heron Double feature.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Blue Heron, Blue Ruptia, Blue Rupia.

[Sam Taggart]

They're calling it Blue Ruptia.

[George Severis]

Blue Ruptia.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Blue Ruptia, Blue Ruptia. We can also mile in Kicks comes out that day. There's another movie that comes out that day. Oh, Mother Mary comes out that day. Yeah. Another Charlie X movie. Sort of.

[George Severis]

So Charli XDX is in this film and she plays a normal girl. She does such a good job.

[Sam Taggart]

As far as bisexuals can be normal. Of course.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Is she bisexual?

[George Severis]

It seemed like it to me.

[Sam Taggart]

Sorry, go ahead. You had a question?

[George Severis]

Well, how did you train her to be normal?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I think that that was the power of our director. Our director's really good at just being like, hey, don't do that.

[Sam Taggart]

Totally.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

His direction style is like the most radical directing style I've ever had. Cause he's just someone who says no.

[George Severis]

Just like, less.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, not just less. He's like, I don't like that.

[Sam Taggart]

Was Charlie just trying to like, power walk holding a purse around the room all day?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Exactly. No. But I also think she was ready to be normal. I think she was like, she was like, like, let's take the makeup off. She said, let's pull the hair down. Let's just, let's just walk and talk. And it was really weird because it was like in this. It was like, like all the Bratz stuff was out and she was about to go on tour, so it was like, this really weird pocket of time where I think, like, the first day we were on set, like, I think the bear. The Barry I was calling Barry. I don't. I don't know him. Never met that one. Why is that Barry who? Obama. Oh, the Barry Obama?

[Sam Taggart]

Like Keoghan?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, the Barry Obama list came out that day. That was like, her song is on it, like, the first eight realms. And I was like, this is crazy. She's like, I know. You know? And I was like, oh, you're in a really crazy spot. She was also, like, editing the remix album. Like, while she was. Like, while she wasn't on set, it's.

[Sam Taggart]

Does she sleep?

[Jacob Goldstein]

How did she do it?

[George Severis]

How did she come together? Like, how long did you guys film? Like, how did you do this?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Okay, so, so much happened. It's like some heartbreaking stuff happened. Like, it's like a really. It's an impossible situation. So Pete and I were in town because we made a documentary together. We had also made another movie together the year before. That doc was about to premiere at Tribeca. He was hanging out in my neighborhood. It was like three o'. Clock. We had been talking about other movies we'd been making. And I was like, let's go to Clandestino. Go to Clandestino. We're getting drunk in walks, like, fresh from Brooklyn. Like, remember when she did that? Like, 360, whatever, party in Brooklyn. Fresh off of that day, Charlie comes into Clandestino.

[Sam Taggart]

Wait, coincidentally or you invited her there?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, coincidentally.

[Sam Taggart]

Wow. Charlie Clandestino.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Charlie be going out in Dime Square. So I was like, charlie, she's like, fear me. And you know when you have a friend who's straight, maybe different, just a different vibe, you, like, really big up them to your new friend so that, like, the vibes aren't awkward. Like, so you aren't just talking to the new friend who's, like, famous or whatever. So I was like, charlie, meet Pete. Pete is amazing. He's the greatest filmmaker, blah, blah. And I was like, really trying to work this out really hard. What I forgot is that, like, cool girls love, like, guys with a little tism, you know?

[George Severis]

Sure, sure.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Like, they love a straight guy with little tism. So I'm thinking, like, I've, like, really tried to make a new relationship happen. I come back, they. It's like explosions. Like, I'm invisible now. Like, there's. I don't exist. They're talking about indie movies, like, old movies, like future movies. And somehow in the midst of this, like, you know, hour long. Like, you know, we're just throwing them back at the end of this night. She said, I'm gonna watch your movies tomorrow. But I'm down to come to Poland in August to shoot for two weeks. Because all of Pete's movies are done, mathematically, he shoots them, or at least for now. It's called the. He has a style called Table of Bubbles, right? He's made six movies in the style. He used to be a computer programmer, but he also always loved making movies. And after he made his first film in like, sort of the normal way, he was like, I hate this. And during 2020, he was like, what if I just started doing something? Like, I don't want to keep waiting to make movies. I don't want to keep having permission. What do I make movies just based on what? I have stuff at my disposal. Like, I can rent a house on Airbnb for two weeks. I have four actors that I can write this thing for. I have a half an outline. What if every day we write three scenes? If three scenes are three minutes each for 12 days, you have a 75 minute movie. Like, that's the math. Like, that's the thing. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna be the crew of one. I'm gonna edit it myself. They did it with the first movie. It was called Jessica did very well at south by. And. Or not. That wasn't the first one, that was the third one. But second one. Fuck. Anyway, whatever. I'm getting them mixed up. Anyway, he created the system. He told her about the system. She really liked the system. She was like, I can make a movie in that time frame in that way with you in Poland. If it's these two weeks. He says, yes. We're like, great, let's find the money to make this. The reason it was in Poland is because he had been living in Poland with a girlfriend. This time, straight director shout out to listen. Straight people need representation too.

[George Severis]

It's true.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And so he wanted to make a sort of love letter to the city he'd been living in and, like, making sense of. And then in June, and Pete, forgive me if I got the month wrong, tragedy struck. And his father, who was incredibly healthy, had a freak accident and passed away. And I was like, oh, I don't think we're gonna be able to make this movie anymore. Like, this is crazy. Like, take your time, do whatever. Also, we're seeing, like, Charlie on every, like, every, like, screen you pull up. It's just, Charlie, Charlie, Charlie, I'm Just like, I don't even know if it's gonna be possible for her to be here. Like, we're talking to her team, like, that's feeling more like, you know, big and crazy. And I'm like, I don't know. He's like, no, my dad would be really happy if I made this movie. Like, he would be very upset if I didn't do this. Like, my dad was someone who made things. My mom is someone who makes things. Like, they love that I make things. So I'm gonna keep making this thing. So despite everything that was going on, somehow we all ended up in Poland. On the day we said we would end up there, Charlie and I stayed at the Nobu Warsaw. Shout out Nobu Warsaw. For doing us really cheap, really free rooms. You guys are the best. If you ever go to Warsaw, stay at Nobu Warsaw. I'm not contractually obligated to say that, but I will.

[Sam Taggart]

I should hope not.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Also shout out, airbnb, we love you too. Might be contracted to say that. So we're gonna try to lift them up. But we. Yeah, we did it. We did it. You know, we start. The first day is the best day because that's the day you get to figure out your character. Like, we've drawn these characters over the last couple weeks together in this notes app with him, where it's like, I'm gonna play Claude, she's gonna play Bethany. Like, you know, we're gonna. Will's, Rob Lena's now. Like, we're figuring out our dynamics. We're doing zooms together, and it's all like, sort of like a really advanced cinematic devising process. And the first day is the first day we meet our characters, right? So we go to all these different, like, vintage shops, we put on all the clothes, we figure out how these people dress, how they live in Warsaw. And then every day, either that morning or that night, sometimes in the middle of the day, we are writing our scenes and figuring out the story together and building it together. And it's kind of like having, like, a roving writer's room.

[Sam Taggart]

And Charlie is involved in the movie and Charlie's involved.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. The reason that that. Spoiler alert. We read a poem in the movie. The reason that poem is read in the movie is because when she and I were at the Soho Farmhouse for, like, the GQ man of the Year celebration or whatever, British GQ man of the Year celebration, It's different.

[Sam Taggart]

Thank you for fact checking yourself.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Different British gq. Also, Adam coming over to America, so happy Editor in chief of British eq, coming to America. Gq. Got it. We love him.

[Sam Taggart]

Wait, he's read where.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

When she walked in, this poem was being read over the thing and she was like, this feels like it's the movie. And so then she had it, sent it to Pete on her last day. She was like, I'm leaving, I think I should. We were like, I think it's the poem. She's like, I think it's the poem. So we wrote that into the movie that day.

[George Severis]

Whoa.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

But you know, the movie's about coincidence and this process is about coincidence. And I think that. Cause there was so much feeling going into this moment. Cause it was about the town he was in because he had been like in this long term relationship there. Because, you know, you know, Charlie had all this life happening. You know, Lena, who is phenomenal in the movie, had so much going on for her. Like Nell's apartment is Lena's apartment. You know, like, it's like, you know, her partner Michal was like, you know, was our. Basically our PA and like our producer on set. You know, like her dog is in the movie who sadly passed. You know, like there was so much love and care inside of this thing. But also the fun thing about making a movie with Pete is that like, it's just about the act of making, right? It's like someone tweeted this thing about David lynch the other day and they're like, we really like David lynch because he does this. And I was like, oh, this is why. Because David lynch basically said, like, when no one wanted to say yes to his movies, he would just make something no matter what. And that's what I love about Pete is that Pete has made a movie a year, sometimes two movies a year, like since he made the decision to choose himself. And not like, wait for Neon or A24 or Sony Pictures Classics to buy his script. He just said like, I'm gonna make a movie and I'm gonna invite other people who wanna make a movie to make a movie with me and see what happens. And it's been really inspiring to other people and I want it to inspire a whole new generation. Mainly because I don't think we're gonna have all these companies that are using like, you know, Saudi and Qatari money to keep the lights on, to depend on in the next five years. Like we might have to like band together and do like mutual aid movies. And in some ways that's what these are, you know, like mutual aid movies to like, like, you know, exercise creativity

[George Severis]

I. Yeah, I love the movie. I liked how, like, sorry, I just

[Jeremy O. Harris]

talked for so long.

[George Severis]

No, that was great.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I think that's because I don't listen to podcasts.

[Sam Taggart]

The writing of it collaboratively is so fascinating because it's not the Mike Lee model of improvising. It's actually making a makeshift writer's room.

[George Severis]

Well. And the whole thing feels very. Saying that that's her apartment makes so much sense. It all feels very grounded. And you feel like you do. Like, I was like, I want to go to Warsaw. I've never thought about Warsaw in my life. I want to go here. And I liked how it's so grounded and really stylized at moments. Like, there's these cool little flourishes. I also like it's about coincidence, but it's also kind of about telling ourselves stories in order to live. Like, we're kind of lying to ourselves and trying to seem like a main character. I loved that part of the Charlie and Nel's relationship where they're like, everything's. The world revolves around us. And then is it your character that's like, no, it doesn't.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Well, you know what's crazy about that is that we almost called the movie main character syndrome. It was, like, one of our first, like, ideas for it. And I love. I feel like there are people who, like, are coming to it because they're like, this is the gay Charlie movie. And then are being, like, not letting the movie be what it is and not seeing it, because they're just, when is the lesbian gonna happen? And I really am grateful for you really seeing the movie. Cause I think that that is what the movie at its core is. It's about trying to search for meaning in your life, trying to make yourself a main character when.

[George Severis]

And the sort of cowardice of main character stuff, too. She just can't just say how she actually feels. And it is like, there wouldn't be a movie if she could say how she feels. And so it's like a push and pull. That's why she's the main character. And it's toxic.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Listen, Sam, look. That's it. Deep reading that. Uva. Uva. Right.

[George Severis]

That's true.

[Sam Taggart]

English major.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

You know who was analyzing those texts?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, yeah. Some of the girls read.

[George Severis]

Some of the girls, they try. They try.

[Sam Taggart]

Whether you're in jail or not, pick

[George Severis]

up a book, you know, you don't have to go to jail to read.

[Sam Taggart]

Wow. And I'm learning that for the first time.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

How many callbacks have we done this episode?

[George Severis]

Not enough.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I feel like this has been the most callbacks I've ever done in a podcast, and I really love it. God, it's really keeping me on my toes.

[George Severis]

I'll say.

[Sam Taggart]

I should hope so.

[George Severis]

This and, like, I don't even know where to go from here. I feel like.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Tell me more things you want to know about Warsaw, because I feel like one of the things that we're really excited about is that, like, yes, we want all of the Charlie fans to come, like, please come watch our movie. This is really. I think one of the great things about the moment was that you got to see Charli as. Paint herself, right? Truly paint herself. I think what's really great about this that you get to see Charlie really be amused for someone else and really be at the center of a narrative in a way that, like, I think tells you a different story about her as an actress and presents, like, I think, I don't know, a really dynamic relationship between her and Nell. And, like, you get to meet Lena Gora, who's like, such a phenomenal actress

[George Severis]

and, like, that's who plays Nell. Yeah, she was so good.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

She's amazing.

[George Severis]

She's really great.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And Will Madden is like, I think, the most, like, beautiful, pathetic straight man ever.

[George Severis]

Well, it felt interesting that he's a bald guy and Charlie's real husband is a bald guy. I'm like, was that on purpose?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, it's an accident. It's just that Will is Pete's muse. Will is his. Will is Pete's Leo, right? He's been in three movies with him. They adore each other, they're best friends. Pete works as Will's brother, who's also a filmmaker a lot. They have a really tight connection. I love watching them work together. And I would say that the thing that we also really want are, like, Polish people to see this movie. Polish Americans, we're really pushing this to a lot of Polish communities being like, hey, guys, this isn't necessarily Polish, it's not necessarily American, it's definitely not British. But it's some weird hybrid of all these things. And if you want to see a little piece of home, or if you've never been to Poland, but your parents are from there, come check this movie out.

[Sam Taggart]

I actually. This is something I do want to talk to you about because I'm noticing, and this is obviously because we just interviewed Amy, who is in Blue Heron, which is a Hungarian co production and is half in Hungarian. Sentimental value. Just had all this awards success and it is, you know, sort of like, it is Elle Fanning. But it's also not in English. There's a way in which, as you're saying, when there isn't the support from the big American companies, American and American adjacent filmmakers are almost like, borrowing a little bit from the European model. And I wonder if the future of independent film is all, like, bilingual movies that have, like, both Charlie XCX and, you know, a European actress from, like, you know, either a Scandinavian or, like, a West European country or something.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I think it is.

[Sam Taggart]

And I'm like, that's cool. To me, it's almost like third culture cinema or something. Like, it's every. Like this. Amy's movie, the Family is a Hungarian immigrant family living in Canada. And it's half in Hungarian and half in English. And it's very, like, effortless. And it's sort of like, yes, this is how a lot of the world is, like, you coexist with. With people that are ex pats, people that are immigrants, people that have just moved somewhere. And I don't know, maybe that's, like, the only way to make movies that used to be made by Sony Pictures Classics. Totally.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I mean, I also think that, like, you know, my new play is about Mexico and specifically Zipolite. And it's half in Spanish. Amber Heard is one of the leads. Amoramos is the other lead. And then it's like, you know, Amanda Jahava and eight gay guys. And it was really amazing to, like, do a play that, like, challenged me to listen differently. I think that's what's drawing me to other languages, involving other languages in my work and in my text. Because, like, I think that there's a lot of passive listening right now. And I think that, like, one of the things that subtitles do is one of the things that, like, just having a different language interact with English does is, like, it forces you to lean in, you know? And I think that there's been a lot of passive watching, which is why people can watch a lot of movies and come away with, like, really crazy opinions about them that feel like, did you watch the same movie as I watched? And I'm not gonna drag us into any Twitter conversations now, but One Dollar

[George Severis]

Cannot Do Another has been insane to see on Twitter. Twitter.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

But I feel like. I feel like there is. There is a different, like, valve our brains go to that when we're asked, when we ask them to slow down because they just simply do not understand the language. That I think is becoming very attractive as well in, like, a time when there's, like, so much Dopamine filling our brains.

[Sam Taggart]

You know, I also think when you switch switching between two ways of speaking and being enables you to contextualize each one in terms of the other.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And this is just as a bilingual.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, that's what I mean.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Like growing up

[Sam Taggart]

during the time when we lived in America, before we moved back to Greece, it's like we spoke a different language at home and had different relationships with one another in that language that then were recontextualized when we are in public speaking English. And that just helps you be generally more self aware, you know, it's like it is a. The infrastructure of a language makes you process the world in a different way, just like by virtue of how it is. And so maybe it's like, I don't know, maybe it is a way in which you can actually create empathy in some weird way. Or maybe not.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Well, also my best friend Malta, who's the translator on Spirit of the my new play, which hopefully you guys will see next year in New York and maybe in Mexico, is that he is really swaggy in English, you know, like he's like short king with like a tall wife. You know, like he like, you know, really is just like the coolest guy you will meet. And he told me that when he went back to Argentina with his wife and they were all speaking Spanish, which he's fluent in. Yeah, he realized that he's not. He does not have swag in Spanish, especially the Argentinian Spanish.

[Sam Taggart]

I am the same way in Greece. I just like, I've lost it. Yes, I've lost it completely. I don't have a sense of humor. I don't really keep in touch with people I want went to high school with. So I basically only speak Greek with my family. I don't know the contemporary slang. Like I go back and I feel like a complete loser.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really, I'm really curious about that. Like that's an experience I really like because like I don't speak any other language well enough to like not be myself in that language. I'm sort of like low, like konnichiwa, you know, like.

[Sam Taggart]

And we saw how well that worked out for you.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah. Oh, guess what? It worked out pretty well. 23 days, no charges, get into it. But babe, I can still go back to Japan. Can you? I guess we'll see.

[George Severis]

I guess we'll see.

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[George Severis]

Well, you know, I, of course, feel like a loser when I go to la. And it's not because of the language, just because of the town.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

What do you think? Do you. Are you one of those people who, like, has an LA number? You think you are? I'm like A New York 5 in the LA 10.

[George Severis]

Or like the value system of New York, I, like, really understand, whereas the value system of LA is so confusing to me and I don't know where I fit into it, or maybe I'm too aware of it and I'm like, so here I'm valueless in New York. I have fun ideas. I'm charming. There's fun here in la. It's like, so you're not on the show. And I'm like, fuck, I'm a loser here.

[Sam Taggart]

There's a romance to being an outsider in New York, whereas there isn't in la. If you're an outsider in la, it's like, get him out of there.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Well, do you feel like that's neighborhood dependent and also community dependent? Because I feel like, like, you know, there are people who don't do comedy in la. Do you think they walk around for the.

[Sam Taggart]

Unfortunately, I know that some comedians also fit into that category.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I mean, I just. I wonder, like, I wonder if people feel that same energy in, like, Boyle Heights or, like, you know, in some parts of Silver Lake or. Actually, I think everyone in Silver Lake, they feel it. Yeah, they feel that, that sort of stratification.

[George Severis]

I think they feel the stratification, but it's weird. The stratification hurts everyone. Like, no one's happy with it and yet they're upholding it constantly.

[Sam Taggart]

Except for David Zaslav.

[George Severis]

He's chilling.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, he's having an amazing time.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

How much is he getting like, $900 billion.

[Sam Taggart]

Crazy.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

What was the number?

[George Severis]

I think it was, like, 900 million.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

It's 900 million. Yeah. It's not a billion. It's close to a billion. He really tore. Honestly. Honestly, Papa tore. Like, we all were like, honey, you have 30 minutes. You have 30. He's like, I do, and I'm gonna walk out of here with a Billy, and no one guesses.

[Sam Taggart]

No, he absolutely.

[George Severis]

First of all, you're not gonna have jobs. Second of all, I'm fucking paying for dinner.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay, I'm aware of the time.

[George Severis]

I'm aware of the time.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I think we can stay for 15 more minutes.

[George Severis]

Well, do. This is a complete pivot. That is not necessary.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I just want to say, though, whoever made this coffee hates gay people. This is homophobic coffee. Why is there milk in it?

[George Severis]

Don't attack me.

[Sam Taggart]

Did you ask for milk?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, I didn't.

[George Severis]

We heard you.

[Sam Taggart]

You literally asked for.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I think I said no milk, but I would never ask.

[George Severis]

This is diva behavior.

[Sam Taggart]

That's crazy.

[George Severis]

I'd be like, I want milk. And I'd be like, who the fuck put milk in my car?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I did not ask for milk.

[Sam Taggart]

I heard it as.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Okay, wait, well, so maybe then what is happening is that I'm still asleep. Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

No, this is all a dream. You're still in jail.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I'm still in jail, actually. You know, the craziest thing about jail that I really realized is that I. The only thing I am addicted to on my own life is my phone. I dreamed about group chats.

[Sam Taggart]

No, I know.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I dreamed about group chats. I, like, would have phantom buzzing for a week and a half. And, like, the biggest. The. The craziest thing was that the first day I was out, the first three days I was out, I didn't answer my phone. I was like, I'm free. I was, like, gonna get a flip phone. And like, an addict the minute I still haven't gotten back on TikTok. Okay, but like, an addict. The minute I was able to open up Instagram, it was like. And I was just back. I still haven't posted as much. I'm being, like, better.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

But it's like, my. My digital hygiene is a little bit better, but I'm fucked. I'm still fucked.

[George Severis]

I mean, to do a cleanse and then come back must be so scary.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

It was really crazy to realize how fucked I am.

[George Severis]

I mean, that first moment, were you, like. Like, oh, my God, I have to catch up on so much. Like, did it feel like you had missed something?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I felt free.

[Sam Taggart]

Wow, you are so right that people would pay for this experience 100%. And in fact, I'm ready.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Here's what you gotta do.

[Sam Taggart]

Can you set it up?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Here's what you gotta do. Leave your bag around people who do drugs. Yeah. Just. And tell them. Do what you will.

[Sam Taggart]

That'll be very easy for me.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And then once you are on a plane, it doesn't matter where you are. You might be in Japan, you might be in. Someone will stop you at some point and just say that one. Look in that one. That's where all my face stuff is.

[Sam Taggart]

Arrest me, officer.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

That's what I did. Cause I literally was like, guys, my bag doesn't have it. Literally, just look at my face up. That's where all the liquids are. I have nothing.

[George Severis]

Yeah, well, not nothing.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And then I got in trouble, but. Or maybe. Or maybe I got free.

[George Severis]

Wow. I mean, what do we.

[Sam Taggart]

Wait, I actually want to. One more thing in terms of things you're working on. So you worked on this LA Phil thing with Cate Blanchett. Is that coming to Lincoln Center?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

It's coming to. No, it's coming to New York. Philharmon Harmonic with Dudamel Dismay.

[Sam Taggart]

So, okay, Dudamel is sort of like the one person in classical music with name recognition sort of globally right now.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

And so in light of the Timmy comments about the opera and the ballet, what do you want to get out of doing more pop classical music stuff?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

One of the things. Okay, so my New York LA thing is simply that, like, the cool thing about New York is that, like, I can go to the Met Opera, the fucking, like a shitty, like, play off Broadway, a weird dance in like Brooklyn all in like the same week. Right. And also eat at like some of the best restaurants in the world. And that's really accessible. And it's not that those things aren't like, possible in la, but you just are driving hours to get there. And the thing I want more people to do who live in New York City or live near any of these things is just like, take advantage of. Of it. Right? Like, literally, like, if you have disposable income, which a lot of people do, like become a member at a. At of. At a theater, right? Like the. Or like get a membership to the opera or whatever. You won't like everything. That's actually the fun of it is that you won't like everything, but you'll always have something to talk about with your friends when you go. You'll start to learn things. You'll meet New people who can teach you a lot. I know nothing about classical music, but now I have, like, you know, all these people and. And, like, the symphony and, like, people behind the stage at the New York Phil and the LA Phil who, like, really taught me a lot and, like, brought me along. And now I know what to look for in, like, that concerto. Like, I know that when Yuja Wang is in town, you want to be there. Because that's a diva, right? Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

I also think there's a. Because I also know nothing and I'm trying to learn and, like, asking dumb questions and, you know. You know, you think that people are gonna look down on you for not knowing, but actually they're so excited that someone, you know, under the age of 45 is interested. Under the age of 65 is interested. Not to be Timmy myself, but it's like, then they're excited to teach you.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

And also, like, I mean, there's so many crazy things to learn. Like, did you know that when Beethoven was doing this, people were not. Like, everyone was an amateur musician. Yeah. So, like, we are literally hearing this better than, like, I mean, he couldn't hear, but, like, we were hearing it better than Beethoven could have ever heard it in his time. Because, like, people did not do music as a job. Right. And also, people were so bad at learning the new ones that, like, they'd be, like, working through his big, long, like, opuses, like, for 14 hours, everyone just be getting drunk and fudgeing and hanging out for 14 hours at the concert. It was, like, truly the most raucous, crazy event you could go to.

[Sam Taggart]

It was Berg Hutton and we.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Exactly. And we could have that same version of that experience in some way, shape or form with our friends. Like, it's a little more, like, stuffy, etc. But, like, the more of us that are there, the more of us that ask for different ways of engaging, the more they'll do it because they want to have fun. Right? So I think that's my biggest thing. I'm like, just like, you hear that story, those stories that Fran Leavitz tells about, like, the type of gay guys you. That used to exist. Like, guys we can't all just know. Like, every, like, Wikipedia note about Bebe Rexha and think that that's the end of, like, cultural criticism. Right? We should all. We should not be.

[Sam Taggart]

That's where we disagree.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I love Bebe Rex. I love Zara Larson. Zara Larson, please, if you hear this, I love you, Zara. We love you, Zahra. We love you. But like, if you. If it stops at Zara Larson, you won't be able to appreciate, like, the things that Rosalia is doing in her album or the ways in which, like, there are questions about what Rosalia is doing in her album. Like, I loved talking to, like, all the, like, classical music gays, like, who are, like, here are my issues with, like, the Rosalia album. I was like, cool. I don't have those. For me, it's Master and Peace. Okay? But then to have them ask questions about, like, how it was orchestrated, like, what. Like, what it means to have a lot of violin sound that way meant that, like, if. If I'm ever in conversation with her or her producer, I could ask them these questions. Be like, what does that mean? I had this thing come, you know, and who knows what that might make pop music sound like in five more years? So I don't know. I think that, like, we should have more curiosity. And that goes back to the one battle after another thing. But we'll. I will dip into it, please. As someone who has written. Who's written, like, a complex portrayal of a black woman and faced, like, fierce criticism for it, like, I'm like, just happy the smoke's off me, right? I'm like, take it over there. But what I will also say, though, is that, like, I hear and hold space for all of my friends who dislike. And just like I did with some of the people who had criticism for my play. I mean, there were people at criticism for my play who I thought were just being cruel and, like. Like, talking about me as a person, I feel like the thing that I wanted them to know then was that, like, I don't think. I didn't think that I knew all the answers to any of the questions I was posing in my play. And I don't think anyone should. I don't think anyone's gonna do a perfect representation, and I don't think we should expect them to. And I think what becomes really interesting is to think about the ways in which a representation does or doesn't fulfill its purposes for you while also listening to the people who are embodying those things and just navigating why they said yes. Right? We can't decide that Teyana Taylor, the Grammy winner, and Regina hall, one of the greatest actresses of our time, they just didn't have any agency inside of these portrayals. They just decided, oh, yeah, I'm gonna be a fucking cudgel in a white man's imagination because I need to. They didn't need him. You Know what I mean? They were fine without this. And I think so. I think that, like, we should have more curiosity about what they saw that maybe we didn't see. And also still say, well, I disagree, right? Like, there are plenty of movies that people love that, like, I have notes about, right? Like, plenty of movies, I love that. I have notes about. I have notes about one battle after another. I have notes about sinners. I have notes about sentimental value. I have notes about fucking Marty Supreme. And you know what the main note is? All of them are 30 minutes too long. Well, say that.

[George Severis]

Say that.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

But that's also a note that people have for my play. So it's like, it's great. It's great that we can meet these things and also recognize that humans made them. No human is trying to hurt you when they make art, but few humans are trying to hurt you when they make art.

[Sam Taggart]

I was about to say some are,

[Jeremy O. Harris]

and I think that often be.

[Sam Taggart]

Rexa.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Bebe.

[George Severis]

Rex is trying to cause physical pain.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

But I also think that we should have a lot of grace for people, like, trying and failing. Because would we rather. I mean, I really do wonder. Would we rather artists never step outside of themselves and, like, you know, render identities that aren't theirs for fear of failure and ridicule, right? We're like, on one hand, people are screaming like, how dare. Like, you know, he put black women in his movie in the lead and, like, fuck it up and not do it, right? And then also being like, where were the gays? In Ryan Coogler's. In Ryan Coogler's Sinners.

[Sam Taggart]

And let's wake that up. Where were they?

[Jeremy O. Harris]

That is a question. That is a note as well. Where were the Vogers?

[Sam Taggart]

You know, oh, my God, where were the Voguers? I hadn't thought of that.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

But also, at the end of the day, like, Ryan Coogler. Ryan Coogler had queer people on Black Panther, too. Ryan Coogler is someone I know is an ally that does not need to be something that I'm sitting out here being like, Ryan Coogler obviously hates gays because in his rendering of 50,000 cultures on the screen, he forgot about vogueing. Because my biggest thing about that scene, too, again, again, love you, Ryan. Love that movie. But I know when someone does theater, and I know when someone doesn't. And that was not a scene that was made by a theater maker. And I think it would have been different if it had been.

[Sam Taggart]

And let's end there.

[George Severis]

Well, I want to end on my note.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

You can't end on me giving a note to sinners. That's gonna be the part that's clipped and everyone's like, jeremy hates sinners. I love sinners. I love sinners.

[George Severis]

We can balance it. Do you have a note for a movie? Movie? I have a note.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay. I have a note. This is a good way to Austin

[George Severis]

Powers the Spy who Shagged Me. It needs an extra half hour.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

No, he should have gay sex. The notes should be for movies this season nominated for Oscars. F1, not F1.

[Sam Taggart]

I have a note for Hamnet. I have a note for Hamnet, which is. I believe that William Shakespeare's wife should have known what a play is when she went to the theater and she started freaking the fuck out when someone said the title of the play during the performance.

[George Severis]

I have a note for Train Dreams, which is like, there should have been an extended shower scene.

[Sam Taggart]

I agree.

[George Severis]

The whole time I was like, this

[Sam Taggart]

guy's dirty as fuck and he's hot.

[George Severis]

Let's take a shower. After you come home from logging. Give me the release. I feel all the tension of the logging and no release of the shower.

[Sam Taggart]

Yes. And I would even say Jesse Buckley needed a shower in hamnet potentially before attention. I mean, it's out of respect.

[George Severis]

It's out of respect, folks.

[Sam Taggart]

I could see your dirty ass fingernails.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Were there any shower scenes in the film the Secret Agent? There should have been.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, no, there was, but you saw him shirtless, which is, you know, what I sort of wanted.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

And there was, of course, public sex.

[George Severis]

Public cruising.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Yeah, public cruising. And there was a lot of butt shots of Gabrielle Leone.

[Sam Taggart]

Yes. No, I think it. The Secret Agent was, I can't believe I'm saying this. The horniest of the movies that was gone. It was one of the least horny best pictures. Well, one battle after another actually is probably the most.

[George Severis]

That's true.

[Sam Taggart]

That's true. Horny in kind of violent ways, but horny nonetheless. But, yeah, it was just those two movies that basically engaged with sex in any way.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Secret Agent was my favorite movie of the year.

[Sam Taggart]

It was great.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I loved it. I didn't vote for it for number one, but it was my favorite movie of the year.

[Sam Taggart]

It was just an accident.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I loved it.

[Sam Taggart]

It was just an accident.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

That's my favorite screenplay of the year. Favorite original screenplay. Secret Agent, though, is, I think, just such a sublime film. We don't do anything like that. And. And the other thing that's, like, so annoying about the Academy, my note for the Academy. Why was Ms. Mama not nominated for best supporting actress, bar none. Is the best supporting actress of the year.

[George Severis]

No, she was really great.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Like, there's no question. Like, love Amy Madigan. Politics down. Like, she would have said something to Sam Altman at the party.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, my God, yes.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Her and Ed Harris. They would have went right up to him. Love Amy Madigan. Note for that movie, timeline doesn't make sense.

[Sam Taggart]

You know, for that movie, what's going on with the machine Gun on top of the House?

[George Severis]

No, for that movie, let's Coco Chanel take one thing off.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Who. Who is the little girl talking? The little child talking?

[George Severis]

I mean, there's some notes for that movie. I think that's fair to say.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

But guess what I found out from the. From someone that works on that movie. They were like, oh, my God, I gave all these notes to Zach. You know what Zach said? No one's gonna care. And guess what? He was right.

[George Severis]

He was right.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Oh, I respect.

[Sam Taggart]

I love him. I love him when he's filmmaking ethos.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Also, comedy was boy, here is brightest boys.

[Sam Taggart]

You know, more comedies. We Splitsville. Best picture. Go ahead.

[George Severis]

We need to wrap up. They need the room.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay. They need the room. Stream BB Arupsa.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Stream.

[Sam Taggart]

Stream Splits Bill and Arupia coming out on April 17th.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Were you going to say August?

[Sam Taggart]

No, I said April.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

I heard August.

[George Severis]

And this episode has been obviously unconventional. We're going to call it Jeremy Oharis Breaks the Silence. And that's our pod.

[Sam Taggart]

Goodbye.

[Jeremy O. Harris]

Bye.

[Sam Taggart]

Podcast ends now for our visual learners. You can watch full video episodes on our YouTube channel and subscribe to our

[George Severis]

Patreon for two extra episodes a month

[Sam Taggart]

at patreon.com Stradiolab Stradiolab is a production

[George Severis]

by Will Ferrell's Big Money players network

[Sam Taggart]

and iHeart podcasts, created and hosted by me, George Severis and Sam Taggart, executive

[George Severis]

produced by Jenna Cagle, co produced by

[Sam Taggart]

Becca Ramos, edited by Lauren Stumpf and mixed and mastered by Doug Behm.

[George Severis]

Artwork by Michael Fails and Matt Graham. Scrub theme music by Ben Kling.

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[Jeremy O. Harris]

Night.

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