"Lady Gaga and the Concept Of Time Pt 2" w/ Amy Zimmer

Summary

Podcast: StraightioLab Episode: "Lady Gaga and the Concept Of Time Pt 2" with Amy Zimmer Release Date: March 11, 2025

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Introduction

In the latest episode of StraightioLab, hosts George Civeris and Sam Taggart delve deep into the intricate relationship between Lady Gaga and the concept of time. Joined by guest Amy Zimmer, the trio explores Gaga's evolving artistry, her recent album "Mayhem," and the broader implications of time in pop culture.

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Revisiting Lady Gaga's Evolution

Amy Zimmer kicks off the conversation by reflecting on Gaga's transformative journey since her "Chromatica" era. She notes, "Lady Gaga has always been a chameleon, but with 'Mayhem,' she's embracing a more grounded and mature persona" (05:39). This shift marks a significant departure from her earlier, more flamboyant styles, signaling her growth both personally and professionally.

George Civeris adds, "It's fascinating to see how Gaga balances her theatrical roots with a newfound sense of normalcy" (07:39). This balance allows her to remain relevant while also appealing to a broader audience.

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Themes of Dark Pop and Nostalgia

The trio delves into the musical style of "Mayhem," categorizing it as "dark pop." Sam Taggart explains, "Dark pop here isn't just about the sound; it's about the themes she explores—illness, fame, and the passage of time" (10:07).

Leah interjects, highlighting the nostalgic elements: "Songs like 'Disease' and 'Abracadabra' pull from her past while infusing modern twists" (12:16). This blend of old and new creates a rich, multi-layered listening experience that resonates with long-time fans and newcomers alike.

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Concept of Time and Aging

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the passage of time and aging, both in Gaga's life and her music. Amy Zimmer states, "In embracing her age, Gaga is challenging the norms of pop stardom, showing that growth doesn't mean losing your edge" (16:25). This introspection is evident in tracks like "Shadow of a Man" and "Blade of Grass," where Gaga contemplates legacy and mortality.

Sam Taggart adds a philosophical layer: "Time in Gaga's music is not linear. It's both a reflection of the past and a commentary on the present" (72:01). This duality allows listeners to engage with her music on multiple levels, appreciating both its immediate impact and its long-term significance.

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Reheating the Nachos: Referencing and Originality

A recurring metaphor in the conversation is the concept of "reheating nachos," used to describe the act of referencing past works or styles. Leah points out, "Reheating nachos is Gaga's way of paying homage to her influences while creating something entirely new" (28:43).

Amy Zimmer concurs, stating, "It's a delicate balance. Too much reheating can feel stale, but Gaga adds enough fresh ingredients to keep it exciting" (37:11). This approach underscores Gaga's ability to innovate within established frameworks, ensuring her music remains both familiar and fresh.

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Fan Community and Cultural Impact

The episode also touches upon Gaga's relationship with her fanbase and her cultural impact. Lisa Green Lewis remarks, "Gaga's community is a testament to her ability to foster genuine connections through her art" (87:34). This connection is further explored when discussing how Gaga's music serves as a unifying force for her diverse audience.

George Civeris observes, "In a fragmented cultural landscape, Gaga's music provides a cohesive narrative that fans can rally around" (87:34). This sense of unity not only cements her legacy but also highlights the enduring power of music as a communal experience.

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Critical Reception and Future Directions

As the conversation wraps up, the hosts and guest speculate on Gaga's future projects and potential directions. Amy Zimmer expresses excitement about upcoming releases, while Sam Taggart muses, "If 'Mayhem' is a mature reflection, what will the next chapter hold?" (80:18).

Leah concludes, "Whatever direction Gaga takes, her commitment to authenticity and artistry will undoubtedly keep her at the forefront of pop culture" (95:06). The trio leaves listeners with a sense of anticipation for Gaga's continued evolution and the ongoing interplay between time and art in her work.

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Notable Quotes

• Amy Zimmer: "Lady Gaga has always been a chameleon, but with 'Mayhem,' she's embracing a more grounded and mature persona." (05:39)

• Sam Taggart: "Dark pop here isn't just about the sound; it's about the themes she explores—illness, fame, and the passage of time." (10:07)

• Leah: "Reheating nachos is Gaga's way of paying homage to her influences while creating something entirely new." (28:43)

• Lisa Green Lewis: "Gaga's community is a testament to her ability to foster genuine connections through her art." (87:34)

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Conclusion

StraightioLab's episode "Lady Gaga and the Concept Of Time Pt 2" offers a profound exploration of Gaga's artistic journey and the thematic depths of her latest album. Through engaging discussions and insightful analysis, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how Gaga navigates the complexities of time, originality, and cultural influence. Whether you're a die-hard fan or a casual listener, this episode provides valuable perspectives on one of pop music's most enduring figures.

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Note: The timestamps provided correspond to the segments within the transcript where notable quotes and discussions occur.

Transcript

[Matt]

Hi, I'm Matt.

[Leah]

And I'm Leah and we're from the Grown Up Stuff Podcast.

[Matt]

And just in time for tax season. On this week's episode, we're chatting with CPA Lisa Green Lewis about how small businesses can tackle their taxes using TurboTax Business.

[Leah]

A Forbes study mentioned that a whopping 93% of small businesses overpay their taxes and 17% of Gen Zers believed that you could write off any expense as a business expense.

[Matt]

So can't blame them.

[Leah]

It's really important to do your taxes.

[Matt]

Listen to Grown up stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Grown Up Stuff At Lowe's our members get more with the Mylo's rewards programs. You can shop member only deals for your home and business every week. Plus members earn points on eligible purchases. Members so what are you waiting for? Join for free today. Lowe's we help you save loyalty programs.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Subject to terms and conditions.

[Matt]

Details@lowe's.com Terms subject to change. Free standard shipping not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Exclusions and more terms apply. Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's Stock up savings time now through March 25th. Spring in for store wide deals and earn four times a point. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible beverage items like Red Bull and sparkling ice, or breakfast favorites like Kellogg's Pop Tarts, Kellogg's Frosted Flakes and Kellogg's Eggo Waffles plus many more. Then clip the offer in our app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.

[Leah]

Where'd you get those shoes? Easy. They're from dsw. Because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're into right now. You know, like the sneakers that make office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off.

[Matt]

The many sides of you from daydreamer.

[Leah]

To multitasker and everything in between. Because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or dsw.com hello.

[Matt]

Hello, this is George and this is your final reminder if you live in Philly, Boston or New York City that this is your last chance to see me do stand up comedy before I record my special on April 1st. If you are in Philly, the show is tomorrow. I repeat tomorrow. If you are listening to this on Tuesday, the show is Wednesday, March 12th at Philamoca featuring Sam Ruddy, who is one of my absolute faves. If you are in Boston March 20, there are two shows, an early show and a late show. And if you're in New York, I'm doing Joe's pub on Monday, March 24, and I hope to see you there. I love Philly, I love Boston, I love New York city. And after April 1, you will never hear from me again for like a month or two. Well, enjoy the show. This is a special one. Bye.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Okay, okay, now I'm rethinking. What if we start out sort of with our maybe. Okay, so first of all, I think format wise, it's, you know, discussing the time that has passed. You know, how we were here for Chromatica. What has come? What has passed?

[Matt]

Did Sam tell you that? I like. I really like your idea, Sam, of. So the first time you were on for Gaga, it was Lady Gaga in the Passage of Time. And this is going to be Lady Gaga in the Passage of Time, Part.

[Leah]

Two that I love.

[Matt]

And so I actually think the fact that she said her age on snl, which is no, insane. Like, I think our way in is like the passage of time. You don't like that?

[Leah]

I don't want to. I don't want to.

[Matt]

We're keeping this in, by the way.

[Leah]

Great.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Okay, so then. And then I think we will have to do a track by track and then where we list our health conditions.

[Leah]

With each one or since the. Since 2020.

[Matt]

I'm like crying for some reason.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Okay, let's just start.

[Matt]

But I do actually think it would be funny to keep in the last, like two minutes.

[Leah]

Fine.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Okay, podcast starts now. Welcome, little monst.

[Matt]

Like big monsters.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

More like big monsters. So we are here today with a very, very special episode because, you know, we're throwing our whole framework out the window and we're saying, enough. It's time for us to become what we were meant to be, which is a Lady Gaga. Stan Podcast Lady Gaga recap podcast the week in Gaga. So last time on Lady Gaga, it was 2020 and oh my God, was it 2020?

[Matt]

Not even 21.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

It was 2020. The vaccine was nowhere to be found. We were locked in our homes and we had Amy Zimmer on to discuss the release of not Chromatica, but rain on me. It just rain on me. Chromatica had not come out yet.

[Matt]

Oh, I didn't even know that.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

And so that episode was titled Lady Gaga and the Passage of Time. And so now you are entering Lady Gaga and the Passage Of Time Part two with our guest, Amy Zimmer. Welcome to the podcast, Amy Zimmer. Hi.

[Leah]

Thank you for having me.

[Matt]

I do want to say one thing, which is that PODC episode produced one of Amy's big, biggest ideas of many. There are many things Amy says that kind of I put away in the. In the library of my mind. And I say in the spank bank, in this. In the spank bank, in my intellectual spank bank. And I say, when you need to jerk it intellectually, you can always reach for these. You can always go into the Amy folder. And one of those things is when Amy said Lady, like, respecting Lady Gaga, something along the lines of, like, Lady Gaga means the 2000 and tens meant something like, to let go of Lady Gaga completely, to be like, you're hopeless means that the 2010s were for nothing. So you have to respect Lady Gaga. If you think the 2010s had any significance and can be salvageable in any way.

[Leah]

Well, I think that is hung in high relief now, wouldn't you say?

[Matt]

Yeah. And it actually is funny to think now. Now I think of that as so long ago, but you said that in 2020. So it really was about the decade that had just ended. I mean, this was very kind of, you know, New York Times opinion section, like, let's take stock of the last decade.

[Leah]

It's amazing because I completely black out 85% of that episode. And to hear what I said back to me about 20 years later is really profound. But I agree with that. Yeah, sure. And I think, you know, what a tragic patina it has now.

[Matt]

Completely the patina giving the Titanic, first of all, that feeling when the patina is tragic. Second of all, that patina, it's like the Titanic. It's the first scenes of the Titanic where the little camera is under the water and they're finding things and they're all covered in that sort of like.

[Leah]

Chunky, chunky substance where little cameras are under the water. That's pretty much where we're at, I would say.

[Matt]

I think. I mean, I guess the 2010. The 2010s are sort of, you know, the Titanic main narrative. Leo Rose. And then the 2020s are more little camera under the water, finding chunky substance.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I mean, now more than ever, I. I almost want to start with just so listeners, I don't know if they know with all of our relationships with Lady Gaga.

[Matt]

Yeah, Amy, Amy, please kick this off my relationship.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Even if it, if it. Because since we talked, Grammatica has come out There was a tour, there's been a whole. And then now a new album. I want to know if anything of your relationship with her has changed in the last five years.

[Leah]

Yeah, I think it would be a little. A little distressing if it hadn't. I actually think this entire. What it seems to be like her sort of promotional cycle around this album is that how much things have changed, which is a big part of time. I don't know if you know about this, but I would say, yeah. I mean, there's always something that changes in your relationship to a mega pop star in the course of a life. And I also think who I am, since I even said that, has changed a lot, so.

[Matt]

Yeah, since you just said that, like, since you said that.

[Leah]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's. Yeah. The mayhem of my mystery. But there is something eternal, I think, to being interested in her work, which is to, like, constantly sort of not know how you're feeling at any given moment until you do.

[Matt]

Yeah, there's a productive ambiguity there.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah. So as I want to know, like, as mayhem is coming out, you know, tell us what's going through your brain. Tell us if it's sort of the emotions that it's sparking as she's promoting. I want to know, like, are you, like, is it fear? Is it wonder? Is it excitement? Is it anxiety? What are you feeling as she is, you know, debuting her black hair and her. This font? And I want to know. I want to know it all.

[Matt]

Yeah. How do you feel about the font.

[Leah]

About the orange font? Yeah, it's the last thing on my mind, I guess, when it comes to everything. I mean, I've been seeing a lot of these things where it's like, compare Lady Gaga's fonts over the years, which I think is symptomatic of something much darker in the culture.

[Matt]

100%.

[Leah]

That's the real mayhem to go over the font of a. Of a business is kind of crazy. But I was really excited. I have been excited to see her going dark, dark pop. I think I was part of the majority or a lot of people who suspected it would be a hardcore return to dark pop. And then I think I was in for a surprise when the album dropped. Not an entirely unpleasant surprise, but I did take some adjusting or something to it.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

So when we say dark pop, because I have to say I'm very much on the outskirts of this, by the.

[Leah]

Way, that's not a genre that kind of exists, but.

[Matt]

But is that we're talking like, Alejandro.

[Leah]

I think we're taught. Well, I think that obviously the two, the two lead singles that came out were featuring like a really more goth heavy sound, a more industrial sound, which everybody came to know her for. And I felt that the visuals in Disease in particular were exciting. I love the choreo with Paris, the new direction. I thought, you know, okay, there's effort, energy and momentum. Which I think as you. If you're going to chart anything through the discography, those three things are. It's hard when those three things are aligned. But, you know, what are the three things? Again, I don't know.

[Matt]

Okay, I wasn't trying to catch. That wasn't a gotcha.

[Leah]

I just, I think it's effort, energy and momentum.

[Matt]

Effort, energy, momentum, energy and momentum.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah, that's our sort of charisma, uniqueness, nerve and talent.

[Matt]

Effort, energy and momentum is huge, Amy.

[Leah]

Is it really?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah, it's huge. Effort, energy, momentum. Because I do agree because actually when disease first dropped, it was like there was just the single, no music video. And I was like, is there effort, energy and momentum? Like, I was like, there's a little effort. Like you did put the song out, but is it energy? Is it momentum?

[Matt]

You felt disease was not energy or momentum.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I did. I felt like it was effort.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

And then once the video came out, then I was like, okay, now we have energy, effort, momentum.

[Matt]

Yeah. What's interesting about those three is that it's not quite that, you know, you have one, that's one third, you have two, that's two thirds. It's not like that at all actually. Because if you have effort but not energy and momentum, that actually is a self defeating effort. Because then an effort without energy and momentum just seems desperate. And it's almost worse than not having effort at all. It's worse than being just static, you know, effort without energy and momentum is someone on the street just sort of like slapping themselves and being like, notice me, notice me.

[Leah]

Yeah, well, that's a key part. That's a key part of this anyway. But I'm interested what you said, Sam. You weren't sort of excited by disease when it happened or you didn't feel all three were happening?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I didn't feel all three were happening.

[Matt]

So my relationship, whereas I did, I.

[Leah]

Was like, all right, I did too.

[Matt]

I did too.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

That's awesome. I was jealous of that. As, as you know, Chromatica was nearly a mental illness for me. I, you know, I think it's, it's.

[Leah]

It'S unilaterally that for almost everybody involved, I can't imagine a universe where it was, you know, like a tranquil ambience.

[Matt]

Yeah. Where you're healthy, you're just sort of like, oh, yeah, I'm just having a sip of wine, listening to Chromatica.

[Leah]

Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I listened to it so much, I bought over five T shirts.

[Leah]

Your merch that I didn't know.

[Matt]

Your merch addiction was actually crazy, Sam. And I'm still finding out about new T shirts that you own from the Chromatica.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Currently wearing the dawn of Chromatica shirt.

[Matt]

And can I ask something? All of these you paid for. It was not the Gaga team. Gaga didn't send them to you as an LGBTQ influencer. You didn't maybe get them at a concert, like, as a free promotional gift?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

No, I was lost. I was lost, and I think I needed it so bad.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

So I was buying merch left and right, and I was sort of like, well, this is the only time I can buy Chromatica merch. Is this moment in time, the summer of 2020, when they're. When we are all locked in our homes.

[Matt]

Of course, except all the various people that completed your order say that.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

So, yeah, pretty much. I had to buy as many shirts as I could.

[Matt]

And do you feel then. And when disease came out, you didn't feel the need to, let's say, Google Gaga disease T shirt?

[Leah]

Yeah. Where's your merch stance now that we can leave our homes freely and sort of go about in the social climate that is, you know, reaching a fevered pitch?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I mean, I literally have. I did look up, you know, I said, I can't wait for the Mayhem merch to drop. Then I went to the website. Turns out it already did. And it's just sort of not exciting to me, which I think is growth. Like, I think is, like, a good sign. It's a sign that I'm healthier at least. And I think when disease came out, I was sort of, like, sort of expecting to go into a psychosis once again.

[Matt]

Totally.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

And instead I was like, oh, okay. Like, okay. And that was healthy. And I think, you know, we talk about our relationship with her. I think in 2020, I was like, literally, like, this is the only thing I'm looking forward to, and this is the only thing that is fun to me. And now I'm like, there's more in my life. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Leah]

I think a big part of this album subtextually, actually is, like, it a really noble millennial embracing of getting older, at least on Gaga's part, which I really respect, because I do want to talk about that. I'll talk. When did I say I didn't want to talk about that?

[Matt]

At the very beginning, when I was like, you know, a big part of the album cycle is the passage of time. And I was actually very struck by the fact that on snl she said, specifically her age.

[Leah]

Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

And we said, do you want to talk about that?

[Matt]

And then, you coward. No, you literally were like, I can't talk about that.

[Leah]

I didn't want to be like, I'm 42 and have sinusitis since Chromatica came out. You know what I mean? Like, I do want to talk about, you know.

[Matt]

Okay, you want to talk about her embracing aging as an elder millennial.

[Leah]

Well, as a pop star specifically. I think that's an incredibly. It's a beautiful moment, I think, in a larger recording artist's.

[Matt]

Of course, it's the ray of light.

[Leah]

And it's critical to their. Their artistry, which is a favorite word, I think, of Stephanie. And I think, like her, it just seems like in the promotional efforts, she's pretty dead set on being grounded and adult or at least a presentation of stability after. And that I think she's trying to make it pretty clear that this is about her enjoying making Lady Gaga music again and that she is 38 and that she's. I don't know. I don't know.

[Matt]

Do you think?

[Leah]

I think, yeah.

[Matt]

So. Because I'm obviously Gaga, whenever she's promoting anything, there is a certain character she's playing. And, you know, for artpop, it was like mermaid. For Star Is Born, it was ingenue. In her first big starring role for Joker 2, she was, like, on the verge of murdering. And for this one, I find it interesting that she is actually choosing to be kind of like, sort of normal.

[Leah]

Yeah, it's like down tempo grunge, like Tampa Girl, which I can relate to.

[Matt]

Exactly. And she's. It's actually crazy how she's, you know, you think of her as someone who is inherently, and I say this in a positive way, inherently weird. Inherently theater kid esque. Inherently, there's something a little bit off. And the way that she has managed to just turn that off completely and be just like, charming, doing her SNL monologue, kind of talking very matter of factly about embracing joy and finding love. There is one part of me that's like, so has it all been a lie to this point up until now?

[Leah]

That's critical. I mean, to wonder about if anything's been a lie or not is to, like, is to fool yourself in this. You know, the whole. The lie of Lady Gaga is the essential core of Lady Gaga.

[Matt]

No, it's.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I fully agree.

[Leah]

I don't think it's about whether or not she means anything or not. I don't think this is like some kind of trickster album rollout either. I think it's like. I think she's simply saying, like. I mean, maybe it's a good segue into perfect celebrity, but. And I don't know if you want to go track by track or what.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Let's go track by track, starting now.

[Leah]

Okay.

[Matt]

Okay. Hi, I'm Matt. And I'm Leah.

[Leah]

And we're from the Grown Up Stuff podcast.

[Matt]

And just in time for tax season. On this week's episode, we're chatting with CPA Lisa Green Lewis about how small businesses can tackle their taxes using TurboTax Business.

[Leah]

A Forbes study mentioned that a whopping.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

93% of small businesses overpay their taxes.

[Leah]

And 17% of Gen Zers believed that you could write off any expense as a business expense.

[Matt]

So can't blame them.

[Leah]

It's really important to do your taxes right.

[Matt]

Listen to Grown up stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. It's tax season, and by now. I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to hear. $16.5 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Here's another 20%. That's the overall increase in identity theft related to tax fraud in 2024 alone. But it's not all grim news. Here's a good number. 100 million. That's how many data points Lifelock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it, backed by another good number, the million dollar protection plan. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock Identity theft protection for tax season and beyond. Join now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off terms apply. Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's stock up savings time now through March 25th. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible snacks like lay's chips, garden veggie straws and planters nuts or sweet treats From M&MS. And Oreo, plus many more. Then clip the offer in our app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.

[Leah]

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[Lisa Green Lewis]

Let's start with disease. We've discussed it briefly. Personally, it really grew on me and now I'm obsessed with it. I also love how Azealia Banks is obsessed with it and that has informed me a lot.

[Leah]

We'll talk about the passage of time. To see, literally to see some beautiful things blooming from 2013 to now is really nice to see. But yeah, I was excited by the grit and the grist of it and I really liked, I have always liked when she's doing something a little more sledgehammery. And so I really liked the, the bass in this and, and the visuals and I was like, all right, you know, nothing that would make me, you know, buy five or six T shirts or something like that. But I was certainly really excited. And my baby.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I give disease 3T shirts.

[Matt]

I give disease 3T shirts. I'm excited. We'll get more into this later.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Four T shirts. Four I would say I give goes from one to six.

[Matt]

I give it three and a half.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Okay.

[Matt]

Something I like about this album is that it really solidifies a lot of the Gaga themes and motifs. There's like a real world building element to it. Like there are These themes of illness, murder, fame as a prison, a lot of the stuff that we've seen before, but re examined in slightly different ways. And I really do appreciate that. Something about the passage of time, aging, and also her being normal. I actually sort of think it's not that the passage of time is like this linear thing where it ends with her being normal at 38. I actually think for a pop star, the ages of approximately 38 to 42 are when they almost like transcend in this way. It's kind of like when Madonna had Ray of Light. And I actually think after that, you almost have permission to get even weirder if you want. But it's like this is almost the peak of something where you have to make your grand statement of like, okay, we have now seen what I've done the last 20 years. This is. This is who I am as an artist.

[Leah]

Yeah, well, that's always the hope I have with. With artists at the peak of their popularity while they're approaching that age range, which I think you're, you know, by force or by decision, you have to kind of release the trappings of you ingenue, you know, an ingenue Persona or really just any youth of the pop star and hopefully push your vision as far as it can go. I'm always wanting like huge stars to go as experimental as possible. And there are examples of that, but I find there's a lot less, I don't know, risk taking nowadays. But yeah, I agree. I think it's a moment where you can reach an apotheosis of your talents and charms and also just really do things out of left field, like a Ray of Light or something. Something like this or some of Prince's albums from that time, those years.

[Matt]

And I do think this isn't quite a ray of. This isn't quite out of left field. I will say, as much as I am enjoying it, it's a return. It's a return.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

It's a return with a twist.

[Matt]

It's a return with a twist. But it. It isn't. It isn't a left swing in the way that Artpop was after Born this Way.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah, well, I think we should move on to Abracadabra, the second track. The second single even. Well, I guess third, if you can't die with a smile but to die for. I feel like I give this five T shirts. When this came out. I said, oh my God, I'm gonna be so taken care of for the next few months. And I said, I want to hear this out and about. I said, talk about return to form, but with a twist. It felt like a combo of sort of all of the eras in one song. And I was so. And continue to be so into it. It's so fun. And I love the choreo. That's my thoughts. Five T shirts.

[Leah]

That's awesome.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

You hate it.

[Leah]

I don't hate it. I don't hate it. I think I had this one moment because she. What was it, like the super bowl or the Grammys or something? She dropped the video as a commercial.

[Matt]

As an American Express commercial.

[Leah]

It was like a MasterCard commercial.

[Matt]

MasterCard commercial. Excuse me. Sorry, sorry. To the MasterCard team. It was a MasterCard commercial.

[Leah]

If you really want to throw me back to my youth, it's like, let me get excited about a MasterCard commercial.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Leah]

But, yeah.

[Matt]

Lady Gaga dropping a video. Priceless.

[Leah]

Yeah. Well, I think the 2010s idea that I said seven years ago holds up here, which is like, you know, her music is sort of dovetails with a liberal ideology that we, you know, will unspool for, it seems the rest of our lives.

[Matt]

You are completely right there. And I actually think that, like, the fact that it's all these things that she's doing are harkening back to the kind of majesty of the bad romance era, but are also sponsored by mastercard is part of the wistfulness of it.

[Leah]

I know. And, well, I guess my joke and also my feeling, which is just like, let her cook, so to speak. I don't know. It's sort of like, this is sort of what she does. And I. I was like, wow. I like the song. The sort of like, spark of recognition where you're like, oh, my God, I think I like the song, like, to be brought out of some kind of slumber whenever Gaga has an inkling of something. It's a bond between listener and star. That's like, I think ultimately kind of unhealthy. But I am here, there and everywhere.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

But I'm really trying to, like, parse out your headspace right now.

[Matt]

I know. Me too. It's actually really fascinating. It's like listening to a public intellectual.

[Leah]

It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be like that, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Here's something I will say about. About abracadabra.

[Matt]

Where.

[Leah]

And I don't want to say this phrase any more than need be, but I did want to ask you guys opinion about this sentiment of reheating the.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Words we need to.

[Leah]

I'm going to say once. No Let me. Let me finish. Ok, yes, of course, of course. Let me finish. Obviously, that's a phrase that's going around.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

It's the new epidemic. It's the new COVID 19.

[Leah]

Certainly. And I think you can always argue that an artist pulls references and re. Originates things, recontextualizes things into a new form or things of this nature. But I find it a little distressing that the au courant kind of phrase at the moment is literally pointing to a culture of leftovers. Do you know what I mean?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yes, I do know what you mean. I think we are. I think the nachosification of pop music has gone really far. I know everyone's always pulling. I know everyone's always referencing, but I am sort of like this album. So for Disease, for example, I was sort of like. I think what originally didn't spark with me is I was like, this sounds like the Kim Petras Halloween album. The production sounds identical to the Kim Petras Halloween album. So this doesn't excite me because I'm like, this happened five years ago. This isn't old news. And it's like, wow, she brought back the sound. It's like, this is so recent. But I do think the more I've listened to this album in general, I would say it's Nacho's the album. It is fully. Every song reminds me of another song in ways that at first I was annoyed by and now I'm liking.

[Leah]

Yeah, well, I actually don't think, like, I'm faulting her for any of that. I just think it's interesting in the way we talk about popular music now, which is just like, if somebody is to successfully kind of. You just have to sort of successfully reference something and not recontextualize it too much for it to be enjoyable.

[Matt]

And I find that this goes back to my big idea. It's not content creators, it's context creators. All we're doing is recycling the same things, but giving them slightly different context.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Well, for example, also you, Sexua, which I loved. I Stan. But there are songs on there where it's literally Ray of Light. Like, it sounds like identical to songs on Ray of Light, which you know, is having its flowers once again. But it is just like Ray of Lights.

[Leah]

Like, you know what. What can be said, It's a. It's a pinnacle album in music.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah.

[Leah]

In music history. And those sounds are. Are still futuristic, I think, is what you're saying. Like, they're still leading edge, they're still cutting edge. And I think that's an album where the core of it is about huge experimentation and huge experimentation into the, into the, like, iconography of Madonna herself. It's like a huge, it's like a integration of sorts for her, you know what I mean, where she's introspective, she's spiritual, she's futuristic.

[Matt]

Well, also, in terms of the integration of it, it is literally her artificial celebrity self and her quote, unquote, real, authentic self integrating. That is a big part of the, of the kind of theme of Ray of Light.

[Leah]

Mm.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

So. So, so talk to me.

[Leah]

So talk to me.

[Matt]

I'm struggling with. I, I, I'm struggling with the nachos conversation, because here's one take, here's one way into it. I, I want to just reject wholesale the language of TikTok. I don't. Just because three people said this phrase and then people saw it and thought it was, you know, pleasing to the ear in some way, thought it was like an interesting lens through which to view pop culture. So then they repeated it and the other ones repeated it. It gives you this idea that somehow that is how everyone is talking currently. And actually, I am not talking like that. You know what I mean? Yeah, well, I, I'm like, I'm not. You don't have to accept the terms set by the dumbest people on the planet.

[Leah]

Well, when you're talking about popular music, though, I kind of feel like you have to hear it out.

[Matt]

You almost completely. Right.

[Leah]

I don't think you can avoid, sort of.

[Matt]

You can't. You're right.

[Leah]

It's like sort of saying, like, I mean, would James Joyce refuse the language of his day? No.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Leah]

I just don't think that's real. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt]

I guess what I'm, I'm still holding on to this nostalgic feeling that Internet language, language native to the Internet, is less substantial and less real than language that is created in real time and space. And that is just. It's over. It's over.

[Leah]

Yeah. I hate to say it, but I think language is going the way of the dodo, which I don't want.

[Matt]

I mean, now, that's a great phrase.

[Leah]

My whole deal on words, and I think it might be time to nacho reheat.

[Matt]

Time. Nacho reheat. Hello.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Time to nacho reheat. Do we want to move to track three?

[Leah]

Garden of Eden.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Garden of Eden.

[Leah]

Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I'll take you to the Garden of Eden.

[Leah]

Well, this feels like a, you know, a return to a variety of Gaga's past. I do think overall mayhem Is. Is. Is a Brunette album. Not just because she's in this album cycle, but It's. It's the 2007 sort of situation. And I. It's like this is, you know, one of the. The Story demos or something. And it took me, of course, it took me by surprise. On first listen, I was. I know she said that she was gonna sort of. This would be full of twists and turns, but I really was like, whoa. It is kind of like an art pop track. It's like a 2007 track that's fun.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I was taken aback, but then in a positive way, like, I was like. It was like seeing someone wear like a Von Dutch hat. Like when that came back, and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't know we could do that.

[Leah]

I do think there's something like, kind of really truthful about. I mean, she's really going back to 2007 in a way few can understand in this moment because she was there. And so I think the dynamism that she brings to, like, her the songs, it's like, it's got true 2006 vibes in a way that's shocking. It's not just sort of cherry picked.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's true. Because actually, so many of the people referencing that era are in fact 23 and named Tate McCrae or something.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

And so it is very different when she does it. It also. It almost makes you. Well, I don't know. What I was about to say is that it almost makes you wish that is what Madonna was doing. Like, how fun would it be if Madonna was referencing the 80s or 90s or like the Material Girl era in a fun way? But on the other hand, I'm like, I don't know.

[Leah]

I don't know.

[Matt]

I don't want someone to look back.

[Leah]

Yeah, I think it's a weird. It's a different delineation. I mean, I'm thinking about like, MJ and Prince and Madonna and now not just Gaga, but like, this is. I guess that's what I mean. And so I don't want to say nachos again, but when I brought up that point, the whole point being that, like, this is a demand now of our current pop stars that I think, like, transcends, like, reinvention, which was like kind of the 80s and 90s demand.

[Matt]

Oh, interesting.

[Leah]

You had to reinvent and change. And now it's like you have to reinvent and change and successfully reference this thing that we all remember that we loved and to like, infuse that nostalgia into your current project successfully. Whether or not it's sort of, like, presented in a new way is a demand of the moment that I think is like. I don't know if I've worked out how I feel about it, but it's.

[Matt]

Yeah. It used to be that the demand was originality, and you were judged based on how innovative you were being. And now the demand is the reheating.

[Leah]

Yeah, that's what I mean.

[Matt]

And you are judged by how successfully it has maintained its crunch, its flavors. And potentially, if you're adding maybe some fresh parsley or something, or cilantro on top, you know what new twist you are bringing to it.

[Leah]

Exactly.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

This is, like, unfortunately, why nachos is an effective framework.

[Matt]

I can't.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

No, it is an effective framework. It, like, gives you language to talk about, like. Like how things are repackaged. Because, like, some stuff, it is. It is bad. Sometimes you're like, I reheated these, and they're soggy and horrible. Sometimes you reheat it and you're like, oh, this is actually to die for. I'm loving these reheated nachos. There is an art to reheating.

[Matt]

Can I say something about reheating, by the way, in Lady Gaga, you know, a lot of people forget this. When she first came out, one of the big accusations, which. That was that she was reheating Prince, Bowie, Madonna. That was the accusation from the skeptics was that she was pastiche. It was that there wasn't the new thing that you got from, like, a Janet Jackson. The new thing. The. The quintessentially even. Even Britney or, like, the quintessentially someone thing was not Gaga. She literally had a. The. The, like, what's it called on her face, like, Bowie.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

The lightning bolt.

[Matt]

The lightning bolt. Like, she literally had a lightning bolt referencing Bowie. I mean, imagine if I don't know. When Britney had debuted, she had been wearing a cone bra.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah, Right.

[Matt]

So the point being, it's actually very interesting. Gaga, Gaga, reheating her own past is almost the fuck you to the initial accusations that she was reheating that of others. Because now she's saying, there is enough that I have contributed here that I can reheat it over and over and over again. And the stench of the initial reheating is gone.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

But you say that. But that's only this song. Then as we move forward, it's so many reheated nachos.

[Matt]

Okay, let's move on. By the way, I love Garden of Eden. And I want that on the record.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I love Garden of Eden, and I want that on the record.

[Matt]

Okay, Perfect celebrity. Now I want to know what everyone thinks.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Well, first of all, the Gaga not reference being a plastic doll challenge, but again, that's another.

[Leah]

That's another Sam. If you want that kind of challenge. I question your fandom.

[Matt]

Yeah, no, it's illness.

[Leah]

Fundamentally question what you believe about the woman. We're talking about love. Because I think this is her great art.

[Matt]

Plastic. Yes.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I mean, I love the song, but when I was close listening, on my first listen, I heard like that first verse that's about being a plastic doll. And I was like, we cannot literally say the phrase plastic doll again. But nevertheless, she persisted. And then when it gets to the chorus, I am standing and I love this song.

[Matt]

The first time I listened to it, I thought, this is a quote unquote, bad Gaga song, but bad in a fun Gaga way. But the more I listen to it, the more I actually think it's a good song.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

No, I think this is a great one.

[Matt]

It actually isn't. It's not Plastic Doll, which I think is a bit of a kind of fun Gaga flop. And of course I like it, but it's cause I'm a big fan. Oh, interesting. You think.

[Leah]

You don't think it's a club?

[Matt]

I think Plastic Doll is like. It's like, I. I don't think plastic.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I don't.

[Matt]

I don't think Plastic Doll is a song you're gonna show someone to be like, look, this is a good Gaga song.

[Leah]

I think it's like I said, it's. It's really hard, I mean, to discuss whether a song is good or bad. And in this conversation, I feel like is besides the point.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Right. It's a flawed binary. It's a flawed binary.

[Matt]

That being said. Yeah.

[Leah]

That being said, I love how her voice sounds in this. I wish sort of the last 10 seconds of the song were in more of the song itself. You know, there was. I feel like the grungy thing was like, turned up a little bit more at the end. But yeah, I like. I also want the. This is my personal thing that I like of all pop stars. And I think it's really hard and maybe impossible to do, but I would love if more pop stars talked about how much they hate their fans.

[Matt]

I completely agree.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

You know what I mean? She talks about hating her fans.

[Leah]

Yeah. I mean, because I think. I don't think it's like a hateful or vitriolic thing to talk about this Very unnatural, like, symbiotic thing, which I think is like a sort of. I think it's a beautiful evolution of human connection, but I think it's, like, flawed and crazy. You know what I mean? You become such an intimate figure in somebody's life, and you're a stranger, and to talk about how upsetting and demanding and strange it is and how much you want to fulfill on that promise and how you fail at it or how you succeed is, like, really, really interesting to me. So I would love.

[Matt]

In a sense, she is sort of reheating Jesus's nachos.

[Leah]

George, promise me we'll never say that phrase again for the rest of this.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

We cannot promise that.

[Leah]

Oh, well, I do like what you said. If you had said that sort of normally, I think I would have had a different reaction.

[Matt]

Yeah. Ye.

[Leah]

But I do.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Leah]

I mean, the Christ narrative is inherent in the American pop star.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I mean, that feeling when the Christ narrative is inherent. I. Yeah.

[Matt]

I mean, it's what I also like. What I also like about perfect a celebrity is. It's almost like she's actually tried to give this message in for Gaga standards more subtle ways. It's like she had paparazzi. She had Plastic Doll. And with this one, she's like, okay, guys, I'm gonna say this one last time. I feel like a plastic doll, and you're all ruining my life, capiche? Like, that is it sort of like. It's like she hangs.

[Leah]

I think it's the last time.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I don't think it's the last time.

[Matt]

But there is something about it, even the title being so literal. Like, it's so. It's not even trying to be, like, metaphorical. At least. Plastic Doll. She's doing a metaphor.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

She's just. I think I really appreciated that because I was expecting, when I saw the title, I was like, oh, it's gonna be like tongue in cheek. And it's gonna be like a glossy pop song about how she's a perfect celebrity. And it's gonna be like, commenting. And then it was, no, she's just, like, complaining in a positive way.

[Leah]

Yeah, I like it.

[Matt]

All right.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I like it. I'm in. Next track. Vanish into you.

[Leah]

This I enjoyed.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

This I enjoyed. I will say this is. Look, Amy, here we go.

[Leah]

Here we go.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

She's starting. Look. This is where the nachos thing gets complex. This, I would argue, is Gaga reheating her nachos, but she added shredded chicken that she found at the store. I think I feel punished.

[Leah]

I feel punished. And I feel wounded and I feel like a plastic doll. Pretty much, yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

This song, literally, the chorus sounds like bad romance. Like she just does bad romance again, but slowed down with like a different, like last.

[Leah]

Because she does a couple II's. You're gonna. You're gonna falter on that.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I'm not faulting her. I'm say I'm crediting her and saying she is doing that. Did you not feel this way?

[Matt]

Is it the ultimate. Is it the ultimate. Sorry. To use this term flex to reference yourself.

[Leah]

I have to take time with that. Is it the ultimate flex to reference yourself?

[Matt]

Rather than referencing. You're saying, like, look at me. I'm referencing the classics. What are the classics? My old tracks.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I think the ultimate flex is to pretend you have a limp with a cane and then fall and do a flip and then stand up and walk normal.

[Leah]

The ultimate physical flex. Like hip flex.

[Matt]

Artistic, artistic, artistic, physical.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I think Willy Wonka ate with that. But I think this is a close second. I think referencing yourself as a close second, I do.

[Matt]

Do we think originality on its own is over completely? I mean, did we just leave that behind in the 20th century? Is it a modernist or has it ever existed?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

This is my mike. Okay, here's what I was thinking. Okay, it still exists in the sort of indie sphere. Like, I was thinking about originality and whether or not it exists. And then I was like, okay, what about like. Ok, Lou, Like, I was like, that's. That's original, right? Or am I just uninformed?

[Matt]

Sam Oklu is the most reference heavy. Well, but this is also like early aughts, like Euro pop I've ever heard. It's literally like. It's like a period piece. It's like Keira Knightley in Bend It. Like Beckham dancing with a going out top.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

But it's so, like, subdued. It feels fresh. It feels new to me.

[Leah]

Yeah, I think you have to argue what the quality of freshness means, because I think you can always argue endlessly that an artist's job is to reference or not reference. We can.

[Matt]

No, keep going, Keep going.

[Leah]

Yeah. To reference or not reference to. God, I wish I remember the rest of that video. But I'm sort of meta sexually doing it even right now. I think an artist's job is always to learn about things that happened before them, decide what it means to their work, and to either integrate it, change it, or not in their work. And so I don't think you can avoid being referential, but you can ask yourself how much your references are Buried or sewn into the things that you're doing. And how you do that, I think, is how you be an artist in one sense, how you fold things into your own. Into your own thing.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Did you guys listen to the new Panda Bear album?

[Leah]

You're completely shutting me down. Not yet, but I have heard the single, and I really liked it. I really liked it.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

It's really good. I really like it. But it's also nachos. It's fully just like. It's like a very straightforward. Like, I'm gonna make music from the 60s again. And in a way that I'm like, well, no one's doing that right now, I guess. So that's cool. I really enjoy it. But it's like, is this. Am I allowed? Is this, like, lazy? That I even like this? Like.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

So I'm torn on this, is what I mean. I'm thinking a lot about nachos.

[Matt]

I mean, you know that famous essay we read, Sam, that said the last unique thing was Amy Winehouse?

[Leah]

When did you guys read that syllabus?

[Matt]

It was on the syllabus, Amy. We forgot to send it over.

[Leah]

You sent a lot over. But I actually.

[Matt]

I almost have a different. Okay, here's my. All right, get ready for this theory. I think there was a break in culture when Taylor Swift and I knew you were trouble included a drop that. That was like, oh, oh, trouble, trouble, trouble.

[Leah]

The dubstep phenomenon.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

The dubstep, yeah.

[Matt]

Taylor Swift. Dubstep, I think, actually was the. It was the big bang that produced the microwave that was then used to reheat all nachos from that point forward.

[Leah]

Well, maybe we're touching on something that is terrifying to realize, which is like, dubstep was a truly original portion of the 2010.

[Matt]

So literally, Amy, that is exactly what I was leading to, because I'm trying to think. Think of the 20th century, how much innovation, hip hop, just like, all the various chapters of rock and roll innovations in jazz, whatever. What was the. In our young adulthood and adolescence, what was the last new thing? It was dubstep.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

It was dubstep.

[Matt]

And it was literally like, I swear to God. It was also like, lmfao, well, is pretty singular.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Well, and I would argue LMFAO is in tandem with early Gaga. It was just like, how can you have, like, the loudest, danciest. Like, no moment of quiet at all? Just like.

[Leah]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And this is something that is forgotten, I think, by the. By potentially some younger fans of Gaga is that the initial glam was indie glam. Gaga was Santa gold. But then took it a step further.

[Leah]

I can't follow you there.

[Matt]

It was. It's.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

You mean like the visual, like the costume?

[Matt]

It's sequins, but it's dirty.

[Leah]

Mm.

[Matt]

You know what I mean? It's not.

[Leah]

It was a reaction. It was a reaction.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

It was American Apparel.

[Matt]

It was American Apparel. Yes.

[Leah]

It was a reaction to the previous couple years of like, intense folk dumb.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Leah]

You know, it was like a folk, folk heavy Bush years led way to a kind of glitter phonic Obama years.

[Matt]

Yes. And then. But. Yeah, but then the glitter was not.

[Leah]

Let's not dwell on it.

[Matt]

No, I think we have to. I think there was a chance to embrace the glitter, but people were afraid to. I don't think Obama was glitter. I think Obama on the.

[Leah]

I didn't say that.

[Matt]

What did you say?

[Leah]

I didn't say Obama was glitter.

[Matt]

I said that I think Obama. You know, there's. On the one side of things, you have just a single leather boot, and on the other side, you have a bucket of glitter. And I think Obama went for the boot more than the glitter.

[Leah]

Wow.

[Matt]

So then how did we get here? The next track is Killa Killa.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

So Killa Killa is obviously the next single.

[Leah]

Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Because she performed it on snl. I personally, you know, here's what I'm gonna say. I think every time I talk about a song, I'm gonna start by saying I personally really like it. So, you know, I think fans may think I'm not critical enough and that's okay. But this song is sort of Prince Bowie, but with classic little Gaga isms. And I think it. At first I was like, jaw on the floor. This is so corny. And then it's really won me over. I'm addicted now. I think the breakdown is so genius. I do wish it started there and stayed there, but I. And like, with moments, I wish the outro was, like, way more prominent and it would, like, have breaks of the, like, little funky, funky part. And then I would go back to being kooky.

[Leah]

I respect that. I. Yeah, I mean, well, the fame reference is so hardcore in it that it really took me by surprise, I gotta say. But I. I like the SNL performance. I thought it was cool. And, like, I liked the CCTV kind of moment of it. And yeah, I give it a couple T shirts.

[Matt]

Yeah, I give it a couple T shirts. Once again, she's going back to themes of murder and death and specifically killing and kill.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah, I think kill, ah is quite funny. I think I love Gesafelstein.

[Matt]

So who is that?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

So who is that? I mean, I just love the name. I love saying featuring Geffelstein.

[Matt]

And he's French.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

He's a French DJ producer, so pretty much that's what legend. Do you know who Gesoffelstein is, Amy?

[Leah]

Yeah, Amy, I know they're a legendary producer from French producer.

[Matt]

Are they legendary?

[Leah]

That's what I hear.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Okay. Many. Many of my sources are saying that Gus Haveelstein is quite legendary in the French DJing and producing space.

[Matt]

Okay.

[Leah]

Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

So, Amy, I feel almost that you're beating around the bush. Do you not enjoy the song?

[Matt]

Yeah. And also, Amy, can I ask something? Like, what else are you hiding?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I don't know.

[Matt]

There is something deeper about this album, and I actually. There is something. Here's what it seems. Here's what it. All right. Here's how I feel about Gaga at this stage. All right. I almost feel like that moment when things are so dire that you're not allowed to criticize the Democrats.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt]

I think that it is. There is something. Culturally speaking, I have to. We. Our community has to hold on to Gaga so much right now that it feels unethical. Even if I do have an issue with one of these songs or even if I potentially have a. An opinion regarding the reheating of nachos, that this is not the time to be critical in the same way that when it is time to be united and resist and coalition build. I shouldn't be making fun of Nancy Pelosi.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Wow. I think that's scaring me.

[Matt]

What do you think of that?

[Leah]

I think I. Well, I think that's probably true. I think I'm going back and forth with this thing where it's like we're talking about getting older and talking about this album, and I think I keep going back and forth about what it means for a pop album to be resonant to me or not at this stage in life. And I don't think that the album's not in life. This is why I don't open up.

[Matt]

Amy, come on.

[Leah]

This is why I don't open up.

[Matt]

We were getting somewhere.

[Leah]

No, let's not believe we just did that.

[Matt]

I'm getting Amy to say that, to address the elephant in the room, and you're gonna go and do that in life? Amy, please keep going. Ignore him. Ignore him, Amy. Well, no, I like what you're saying, that it. Of course. What does a pop album mean to you? As. What can it ever mean?

[Leah]

I think I'm personally hitting this moment where I'm like, I want every single pop release to electrify me. And I think there's something larger going on that's preventing me from feeling really electrified. And I actually think it's a classically natural thing about, I don't know, like, getting older and in the resonance of a pop album. It's. I. And I really mean, like, I don't think it's not a resonant piece of work. I'm not trying to, like, tiptoe or like, like you said, you know, not criticize the Democratic Party. I don't really. First of all, anyway. First of all, anyway. I don't.

[Matt]

First of all, anyway, I actually want.

[Leah]

People to enjoy themselves. And I think, like, coming down on it one way or the other is like. I really do believe it's sort of irrelevant to the enjoyment of Gaga as a superstar. It's like, I want to enjoy her. I want to enjoy her enjoying this. And I. And that's how I feel. I don't know if that's a little bit like Kid Gloves or something, but I'm sort of.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I hear what you're saying.

[Leah]

I think what we're doing actually is the endless loop of. Of interpreting Gaga's music, no matter what period of time we're actually in, like, it all, you know what I mean? Like, wondering if we're adequately summarizing it or criticizing it. Are we enjoying it enough or are we not? Like, that is the joy that she's trying to bring to us. And that's also this bizarre. The bizarre nature of, like, a. Like a. A fan's listenership. It's like. It's like what you. It's the mechanism in which we're all, you know, operating within. So I'm sort of. I. I feel a little bit like it's moot one way or the other, and I'm like, I want. I want people to enjoy themselves, for God's sake. You know what I mean? It's because. It's just because it's not all like, dance in the dark, you know, just because I want everything to be dance in the dark. Like, that's my fucking problem. Do you know what I mean? That's my problem.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

That's a tough feeling, though. I know what you mean. I feel that way about, honestly, like, so many pop stars that don't speak to me, I get like. I do feel like I don't want to bring them down, but I'm like, this is. Something's up, like, I'm like, why can't I feel it?

[Leah]

Yeah, well, she does. I mean, out of anybody she speaks. She has spoken and speaks to me, but I'm just like. I don't know, like, to.

[Matt]

She can't fill it.

[Leah]

She. What?

[Matt]

I said what?

[Leah]

I said she can fill it.

[Matt]

She can't fill it.

[Leah]

She can't fill it.

[Matt]

We've grown enough that it's not enough to fill it in the way that Bad Romance or Dance in the Dark or even Guys.

[Leah]

And by the way, were she to fill it is like. What does that mean? Do you know what I mean?

[Matt]

Yeah. It's like, if she could fill it, that actually is a. You would have a personality flaw because you would be so small that you could be filled by it.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Drag me.

[Matt]

No, not you. You're not being filled by it.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Should we move to the next track?

[Matt]

Yeah, the track by track thing is tripping me up because I'm like, I know it's getting almost close to something and then we have to move on to the next track.

[Leah]

What's after Killa Zombie Boy and see Zombie Boy. I love.

[Matt]

I love Zombie Boy.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I love Zombie Boy.

[Leah]

I love Zombie. So it reminds me of nights I've had at the Standard.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Wow.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I mean, you know, Lady Gaga grew up in the Standard. Like, pretty much that was her whole.

[Leah]

Life in the Standard Hotel.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah, yeah. You know, going to the Standard. Going to the bar at the Standard.

[Matt]

I do like a 2010s version of the Chelsea Hotel, where instead of, you know, Patti Smith, it's like, like, it's literally like all the people that were at Pitchfork Fest, but they're like, put. Being put up at the Standard. Well, it wasn't. They're all, like, honestly doing fine financially. They're just sort of like partying at the bar.

[Leah]

Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I mean, if you weren't. What's the bar called at the Standard?

[Matt]

Top of the.

[Leah]

The Boom Boom Room.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

The Boom Boom Boom Room.

[Leah]

Yeah. Yeah. It made me think of the Boom Boom Room where I saw the Zombie Boy.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Zombie Boy. Yeah. I'm. I think some. The funny thing about, like, killer Zombie Boy disease, like, I think it is funny. Part of me is like, did you intend for this to be a Halloween album? And just like.

[Matt]

Well, that is the dark pop of it all.

[Leah]

Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

And she's so literal.

[Leah]

Yeah, well, she's literal.

[Matt]

The Beast.

[Leah]

Pretty literal. I mean, for her fantasy and for her. You know what I mean?

[Matt]

Even Die With a Smile. That is also Halloween. Even if it's much more of a Uber song, target song brand. Like, Abracadabra is magic. It is a Halloween album. I'm really realizing it's a Halloween album.

[Leah]

Well, I do think that the part of the imagery around the album is talking about this thing. I think we're maybe struggling to articulate, and maybe we're not, but it's just sort of like this. The resuscitation of Gaga itself, herself, like, the Gaga of her life is like this sort of, like, endless, combative resuscitation. This, like, coming back from the dead and all of this kind of stuff. It's. It's. This seems to be like, her struggle, which I. I always find that stuff kind of very interesting. Want to want pop stars to write all about it. So I do think, like, obviously the imagery is pretty literal in the songs, but I do think she's trying to pepper that in there. To be, like, what happens in this, like, rebirth is actually, like, constant death also. And it's really exhausting on me who's, like, actually an alive woman in a relationship and wanting to be. Wanting to be a woman. Do you know what I mean? Like, and wanting to be, like, alive.

[Matt]

You are. So Rebirth is constant. Death is so true. It's not like you are reborn and you're stronger than ever. You're still carrying the weight of having just died.

[Leah]

Well. Or. Yeah, you're meant to sort of ask what you take with you.

[Matt]

Exactly. And also, you know, a rebirth can. Doesn't. Can be a zombified rebirth. I mean, a zombie is in a sense, undead, is in a sense alive. And, you know, to go from colors in chromatica to black and white in mayhem, there's a symbolism there as well.

[Leah]

And what do you think that is?

[Matt]

That we've lost the color?

[Leah]

That we've lost the color, folks.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

We've lost the color.

[Leah]

Well, I wonder if there's kind of like an inverse. It makes me think of, you know, I think this album, we're talking about how referential it is. It's very intentional. I think that it's this referential 100%, all these different iterations. And I think about the fame monster, what that meant, the. The departure that it had through that darker imagery in the monster stuff. And she. There was a lot of, like, animation, you know what I mean, in that. In those songwriting, she was animating different desires, different ambitions through, like, this kind of horror imagery. And I almost feel like now it's, like, a little bit inverse where, like, the music itself is full of a lot of life, actually, but it has the sort of kitschy more. More like tongue in cheek, like, horror language. It's not as dark as the fame monster, but it's. It maybe has more life.

[Matt]

And also both the Fame Monster and Mayhem are Halloween albums because the Fame monster also played with themes of monsters, zombies, etc. And by the way, the fame was color and the fame monster was black and white. Just like color and Mayhem is black and white.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Wow.

[Leah]

And you can't argue with that. But what do you think Born this Way is?

[Matt]

I hate.

[Leah]

Because there's color and black and white.

[Matt]

I think Born this Way is, like, isn't even part of this conversation, really. Because to me, Born this Way is like Gaga at her most commercial. I'm not saying that in a negative way. Like, there are great songs in Born.

[Leah]

This Way, but Sam just heard Alarm Bells, Gaga.

[Matt]

Gaga at that point was the number one pop star. And she released Born this Way.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

It's a different mean. But she also. It's a bit of a like, I think this actually does relate to Born this Way because it's so, like, look how many genres I can do. I think Born this Way was very like, this is going to be a Bruce Springsteen song. This is German dance. This is country. And I think Mayhem is like that a lot.

[Matt]

That's actually a very good point. So in a sense. In a sense, what's being reheated is the eclecticism. It's not like each song is reheating different.

[Leah]

I just feel like I created a monster.

[Matt]

I'm not saying the word so referential, but I'm gonna say the word.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I think, honestly, that's what feels most refreshing about the album as a whole, is the eclecticness. Because now everything is so market tested and so, like, this album is about blank. This album is like my 90s house BL. This album is for this. And this is like I'm everything at once. And it's like, actually very confusing. And I'm like, wow, this actually makes it feel refreshing.

[Leah]

And that is what is the only constant that is.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And that is what pop was in The, I don't know, 90s and early aughts. Like, pop was. In fact, the criticism of it was that it lacked cohesion and it lacked a coherent vision. And it was just like an album for a pop star was just a series of singles or a series of songs that could be played without any context. That was a criticism of it. And to make an album like Ray of Light or even something even more cohesive than real life, like something that's like a concept album was the exception. It's like something that someone would do when they wanted to really make a statement. And then at some point everything became a concept album. Like at some point it was like each album was supposed to be like a built in narrative.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leah]

I think that's part of the game. I think. I mean you. I think you're sort of stuck as a pop star. Either to be like intentionally anti narrative or you have to build the world, you know? And I do like what you said, that I do think of a constant part of Gaga's work is that she's always doing something different than anyone anticipates, which I think is like how I've met this album where I'm like, oh, it's completely different than what I thought it was going to be. And I. I always, I always find like love and affection for every project. It's just sort of a manner of how it, how it washes over, you know?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah, I do know. Should we go to the next track?

[Matt]

So the next track is Love Drug.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So now this is. I mean, so it's Love Drug.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

So pretty much it's gonna go ahead and be.

[Leah]

Heard of Love. You've heard of Drug.

[Matt]

I've heard of Love. Heard of Love Games.

[Leah]

And.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

So Love Drug.

[Matt]

Love Drug. And I actually like this one, so.

[Leah]

I like it too.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Let's start there. I like this as well, although. So I'm going to listen to it on my headphones really quickly so I can.

[Leah]

That doesn't feel true.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Exactly. I'm going to say something that Amy's going to get mad at me for.

[Leah]

I don't want to get mad at you. Just so you know. You just do stuff that makes me mad.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Okay. On first listen, when I was really close listening to everything, I was like, what does this remind me of? What does this remind me of? Katy Perry's I Kissed a Girl.

[Leah]

I've seen people saying that. I didn't really like hear that on first listen, but I get that. I mean, there's similar.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

It's very like, it felt so wrong, it felt so right. Don't mean I'm in love tonight. It's like very similar, you know, it's not illegal. Perry doesn't own that. But I was. I. A lot of this album was like. I kept being like, what is that? It's so familiar, but it's just like a little bit off.

[Matt]

Hi, I'm Matt. And I'm Leah and we're from the.

[Leah]

Grown Up Stuff podcast.

[Matt]

And just in time for tax season. On this week's episode, we're chatting with CPA Lisa Green Lewis about how small businesses can tackle their taxes using TurboTax Business.

[Leah]

A Forbes study mentioned that a whopping.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

93% of small businesses overpay their taxes.

[Leah]

And 17% of Gen Zers believed that you could write off any expense as a business expense.

[Matt]

So can't blame them.

[Leah]

It's really important to do your taxes right.

[Matt]

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[Lisa Green Lewis]

So be sure to use condoms and.

[Matt]

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[Lisa Green Lewis]

Run through the tracks. We're going to move quickly, okay, because, because we want to talk broader and okay, so how bad do you want me? The Taylor Swift sounding song. Obviously this scared me.

[Matt]

I loved it.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

But George texted me, I love how bad do you want me? And I said what I did not realize.

[Matt]

I mean I, I was, I was like barely awake listening to the album for the first time. It came on, it was catchy to me. I texted Sam, oh my God, I love how bad do you want me? And he was like, the Taylor Swift and I had no idea what he was talking about. And then I guess I looked it up and. What is the story there?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Well, I think it's a rumor that she like did background vocals on it or something.

[Leah]

I think that's fake.

[Matt]

I mean, it's fake, but I mean.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

It just sounds identical to Taylor Swift.

[Matt]

Sounds like a Taylor Swift funk, but it also sounds like a Taylor Swift song. By way of Gaga. In the way that, you know, I don't know. Edge of Glory is that type of song by way of Gaga.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah, it's just as like. I'm just. I look forward to one day finding peace with my relationship with Taylor Swift, but today is not that day.

[Matt]

You're just allergic to that sound, so you can't let it into your heart.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Exactly.

[Matt]

Interesting.

[Leah]

I think it also has a little bit of the Cure in it. Not the band, but the song.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Leah]

Although if I made a connection, now that it had references to the Cure of the band, I think this would be a perfect episode for me.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Okay, let's move on to the next track. Don't Call Tonight. This is sort of reheating Alejandro's nachos.

[Leah]

Oh. Oh, I see what you mean. Like ace of Don't Call Tonight.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Don't call tonight.

[Leah]

But there's also. It made me also think of. I'm not having fun tonight. Another song with tonight in it.

[Matt]

Tonight is such a. The idea of tonight really looms large in pop music.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

We'll talk about the concept of time.

[Leah]

I could have a whole other episode talking about the concept of tonight.

[Matt]

No, but truly the concept of tonight is one of the most powerful. Is one of the most powerful concepts. Because to talk about the passage of time, the idea of tonight is both now and not now. It is tonight. It's coming, but it's basically already happening.

[Leah]

And it's almost already over.

[Matt]

Yes, exactly.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Oh, my God. The temporariness of it is really scary.

[Matt]

It has this dual meaning where you can actually. It can be morning and you can be talking about tonight, and it's in the future and it can be tonight. And you can be like, I'm having fun tonight. Currently.

[Leah]

Right.

[Matt]

It denotes both future and present.

[Leah]

Yeah. I think it's a compression of like actualizing on your desires. It's like you've got about 8 hours, 12 hours, maybe 15, 16 hours if you stay up all night, which becomes dawn, which Sam can speak to dawn of Chromatica later. But you know what I mean, you have a certain amount of time in which you can make the most of things. And that is a really, like, you know, that has a lot of charge to it in a pop writing landscape.

[Matt]

It's also. It's so. It's such a short amount of time. It's like, make the most of tonight. Like, make the most of the night. But also it is infinite. You know, it's like it's forever.

[Leah]

Tonight will last forever. Or it's tonight will start tonight.

[Matt]

Yeah. Okay. Shadow of a Man.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Shadow of a Man.

[Matt]

You love Shadow of a Man.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I heard Shadow of a Man. This is a. It's hard to do. We should. I want to continue rushing, but. Damn. Shadow of a Man is crazy to reheat Michael Jackson's nachos in, like, in such a way, like, the production. Her voice sounds like Michael in a way that is jaw dropping. My jaw was on the floor picking up crumbs because it sounds so much like Michael. And I. I was, you know, gagged in a positive sense. I think this song is so slay. I think it's so crazy. And I loved it.

[Leah]

I. I loved it too. And I saw that it was. That she had used it in, like, Chromatica or something at the Chromatica Ball or something.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

She used the little intro sound.

[Leah]

Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

And when it's like, it doesn't feel.

[Leah]

Fair that you guys are re. Listening to it during the app and.

[Matt]

Sorry, I had to. I literally have not remembered a single song that we have talked about.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Really?

[Matt]

Yes. I mean, I. I. And I listened to the album multiple times. I tried to prepare. We're saying the title of each song. I have no idea what we're talking about.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Dancing a banner. This was at the end of.

[Matt]

Yeah, it is very. Okay. Okay. I'm getting the Michael Jackson. Yes.

[Leah]

Of course. It's mj. I do think about how she has his clothes a lot and what that must be like.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Like, she has his clothes.

[Leah]

Yeah, she, like, bought a bunch of his clothes.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Oh, I didn't know that. But yeah. I remember watching the Chromatica Ball tour video, and it ends with, like, lady Gaga will return. And it plays the very small snippet from the beginning of this song, which is funny. Okay. We love what is the Beast? The Beast is a ballad that, to me, is the. I think. Here's what I'll say. I think it works in the context of the album, but to me, it's the one song where I'm like, I'm okay, okay.

[Matt]

And then Blade of. Go ahead.

[Leah]

Oh, that's okay.

[Matt]

No, no, go ahead.

[Leah]

Then we'll leave it There. Blade of grass.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Did you want to see this? Blade of grass. Okay, here's, here's a. Okay, Amy, get ready to scream. Guess whose nachos this is reheating.

[Matt]

Uh oh.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I was listening to this and I was like, this sounds like something. It sounds like Coldplay. What's it called? Is it Viva la Vida? Yes, it's Viva. It's Coldplay. Viva la Vida.

[Leah]

Walk me through, walk me through.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

So it's like, like.

[Leah]

Yeah, I know Viva. Oh, I know Viva. I know.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

So Blade of Grass is like the same. It's like, like, like, it's like slower. But I have to play it to listen to it, to hear it.

[Leah]

Let me play into the mic or is that going to explode everything?

[Matt]

I can play it into the mic.

[Leah]

Cuz I didn't hear Viva la Vida like that.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Let's see.

[Matt]

Wait, are we both playing it?

[Leah]

What is behind you? I get that. I get that, actually. Totally.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

It's Viva la Vida coded.

[Leah]

And by the way, in about four months, it's going to be Coldplay core.

[Matt]

Oh yeah.

[Leah]

Calling it now.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

What did you say?

[Leah]

I said, I said in four months time, it's going to be Coldplay core.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

In four months time. Set your cows now. Talk about the passage of time. In four months. Four months.

[Leah]

I feel like whenever I do this podcast, I'm like, I'm like an owl that you consult.

[Matt]

We're insulting you.

[Leah]

No, no. I just feel like I speak in complete, incomprehensible riddles. But there's so much that has to understand me.

[Matt]

You are. What's funny about what you said is it's exactly the kind of thing we would say. But then, like, it would. It's so us to be like, in four months, Coldplay is making a comeback. But then you said it and we're acting like you're insane.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

That's what I mean.

[Leah]

I feel like, I feel like this is a critical part of us doing this together.

[Matt]

You're literally coming at us and you're like, yeah, I'm speaking your language. Like in 4 once it's Coldplay Court. And we're like, what the fuck is she talking?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

So July, July, we will be seeing Coldplay corps. People will be blasting yellow at the 4th of July party.

[Matt]

I do think, I do think that there is something so down the middle about Coldplay and that is sort of where we're headed. I think.

[Leah]

I just think there's going to be sounds. I think Benson Boone, in a way, is like a precursor to Coldplay core. Yeah, but he's too big of a voice. I guess maybe he's too big of.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

A voice because there will be an indie Benson boon. There will be like somebody being like, I can be indie and still be anthemic. And that's how we get to culture.

[Matt]

Yes. Imagine dragons.

[Leah]

So, yeah, I heard Viva la Vida in Blade of Grass, but that means.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

That I understand Blade of Grass.

[Matt]

People are saying that this is a worst song on the album. What?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Beast is the worst song by far.

[Leah]

I had trouble with the Beast, but I also. You know what I liked about the Beast? I know we're not talking about the Beast, but I really liked how I like that little like, doot doot doot, doot doot.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I thought that was sure, sure, sure bold.

[Leah]

But anyway, yeah, she's gonna have these. She's gonna have big, big ballads that are sort of, you know. I think a piano ballad is essentially her soul. Whether.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yes.

[Leah]

Whether you want it to go this way or that way.

[Matt]

Does the Beast have what it takes? I mean, we haven't gotten a uni in a while.

[Leah]

Well, I think these are supposed to be sort of in. If we're doing an umbrella of the types of songs she does underneath a little bit. I mean, she does a piano ballad about love. Like she's got a lot of those. And I think these are part of that.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Blade of Grass is very Thousand Doves coded. To me, that's.

[Matt]

That was my first thought too. In fact, I think I would almost proposition that we change our rating system from 0 to 1000 doves to 0 to 1000 blades of grass.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I think that's a genius move. And I think moving forward, you know, save for the pre recorded episodes that we have coming out in the next few weeks, we will be changing it to blades of grass. 0 to 1000 blades of grass.

[Leah]

And it's funny because you guys didn't prepare straight shooters for me and so I don't even really get to even be a part of that. Which is kind of also how I feel sometimes doing.

[Matt]

It's so interesting because we put you on such a pedestal, like to learn.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

This is a very special episode.

[Matt]

Yeah, like I, to me, I'm like, this is the. This is. We're interrupting our normal programming because, you know, a queen has entered the chat and yet you are thinking of it as us disrespecting you or something.

[Leah]

I feel. Yeah. Like a plastic doll.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Oh my God.

[Leah]

No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

[Matt]

What do you think about the. Because to me, something interesting about Blade of Grass is compared to all the other titles and all the other visual motifs that we're seeing. A Blade of Grass is very different. It's actually not. It's not Halloween coded.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

No.

[Leah]

Well, it's got a story behind it. The Blade of Grass.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Do you know the story?

[Matt]

Yeah. What's the Blade of Grass story?

[Leah]

I feel like this is the only thing I've ever learned in the history of learning things, which is that she talked about being proposed to by her fiance, Michael, and he asked how to do it and she was like, just take a blade of grass and wrap around my finger.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Oh, so this is classic Gaga, where I'm like, that that's a lie. No, like, that's a lie.

[Leah]

But don't you think, like, having bluegrass around your finger is so cool? It's so Kindergarten Core, which was in the next five months.

[Matt]

Yeah. After Coldplay. Well, it's going to be Coldplay into Kindergarten Core.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah, yeah. It's going to be Kindergarten Fall. Like, everyone's going to be back to school, I guess.

[Leah]

Nailed it.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

And then die with a smile.

[Leah]

Well, I will say I was shocked, much like everybody else to see that it actually made some kind of sense on the record.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Me too. I think it makes a lot of sense in the context.

[Leah]

Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

And I could have never predicted that.

[Leah]

Not in my wildest dreams could I ever think a song such as this could flow so perfectly into the opus that is mayhem, which I believe it's mayhem.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Mayhem. Yes. Yes.

[Matt]

Okay, so we've gone through the album.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

We've gone through the whole album. Here's a stray thought regarding Michael. I think it's funny that people are talking about Gaga in context of bear community. People are saying that Michael is a bear, that she's one of us, that she likes bears in a way that I think is so funny because. Because also I actually do think it's charming and like refreshing that she's just like found a like, average guy, like looking like he's like, not like svelte or like 15 years younger or something.

[Matt]

Have her previous boyfriends also been sort of normal looking though? Because she's not someone who has ever gone for the.

[Leah]

The hot in the roster, has she?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I just found an article.

[Leah]

What do you think temperature is on hunks?

[Matt]

Yeah, no, that's a good question. I actually think people are so hungry for a normal guy because they don't exist anywhere.

[Leah]

Right. This is what I mean. I think this is kind of the normal undercurrent we're talking about.

[Matt]

And I actually think you Know who's a real pioneer there is Lana Del Rey.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Well, I mean, I think she sort.

[Matt]

Of opened the doors. Yes. Well, no, there's no time. But she opened, I think the ultimate fetish for straight women. White. Straight, white women especially. The ultimate fetish is a normal guy. Because it's something you don't find anymore. More because on the one hand you have, you know, you know, you have sort of brook guys, like Brooklyn fa. Menswear guys. And then I. Huh?

[Leah]

Did you say faff?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Did you say faff?

[Matt]

No, I said Brooklyn faf.

[Leah]

Brooklyn faf. Weird pets.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I don't know. You said Brooklyn faff.

[Matt]

I did. Are you making.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

What did you say?

[Matt]

I said Brooklyn menswear guys. I did not say.

[Leah]

You said something with an F. I literally did not say the letter F. Or like. Like you were British. Like faff about.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I heard that too.

[Matt]

What?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I was like, oh, Brooklyn faff.

[Leah]

Brooklyn faff. I mean, it doesn't make sense.

[Matt]

On the one side of things you have Brooklyn menswear, you know, this sort of like boy. And then on the other side of things you have incels. And so those are the two options for women currently. And so there's this. Well, they are trying to find who is the normal one. Who is the normal one in the middle.

[Leah]

I think there's so many more varieties of weird guys you didn't touch on.

[Matt]

I mean, I guess.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Do you care to fill in the blanks?

[Leah]

I think. What about the guys that have sort of the Seneca profile pictures and the people that. Streamers.

[Matt]

Yes, there's streamers.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Christian photographers.

[Leah]

Christian photographers. Christian.

[Matt]

There's still the poets. Of course there are of course. Something I didn't mention is the so called called finance bro. That's a big archetype. They do exist this day and age. Is the. The finance bro. There's of course a crypto bro.

[Leah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

But again all these. What they have in common is that they're not normal. And so women are desperate for something that's down the line.

[Leah]

Well, he's a tech guy, isn't he?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

He's a tech guy. Yeah.

[Leah]

Next. Let's go over the track list again. Disease. I love that. Abracadabra. Do it again.

[Matt]

Abracadabra. Great.

[Leah]

Garden of Eden. I love those chips. Next.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Do it. Let's talk broad. Okay, Broad strokes. What do we think? I think personally I want to say I'm stanning. I think I was. I think it's settling really nicely with me. Where at first I was like, hold on, this is not what I was expecting. And now I'm finding it to be so fun. I'm finding part of the charm to be her confidence in it and her, like, joy in it, where she doesn't seem like she's saying, like, do you like this? Like, she's saying, like, I like this. And that is all that matters.

[Matt]

There's no desperation.

[Leah]

That's what I mean about her embracing, like, an adulthood that feels really good. And I think, you know, we're talking about all of this and I. We're talking about what, like, a modern pop star is, and we're getting, like, really heady with it, of course. But also, I think, like, Gaga's impact, you just, you. You can't deny, you can't deny her unbelievable craft and at. At least. At. At least giving us something that aims to unite, you know, a bunch of people, get together and dissect this and that, which is really, like. I think it's in a moment where that type of, like, fanfare over something is. Is struggling. So I welcome. I welcome it. You know what I mean?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah, I agree. I do think it's really nice for the community to come together. I've, like, actually most enjoyed this weekend and been like, ugh, everyone's talking about it. Everyone's, like, having their little opinion. And it's so fun to be like, God, we're all on the same page.

[Leah]

I think that's what I've been trying to say this whole time, where it's like having everybody, everyone having their little opinion is like, essentially what we're trying to do, what we're trying to enjoy. You know what I mean? Like, the rock we're all kind of congregating under. I just wanted to drop in and check in about what it even means to sort of be a fan in this moment in time.

[Matt]

I know.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

How do you guys feel about aging? Aging?

[Leah]

About aging?

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah.

[Leah]

Well, if I do it any way, like Gaga, it'll be a total victory.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Well, I do feel, I want to say, like, I find it interesting. Part of the passage of time element is that it is fun to see how she approaches pop music. Because I'm, you know, as silly people, I'm sort of like, how do I approach? Like, when I hear a Tate McCrae song, I'm like, what is my emotion supposed to be like? Am I supposed to love this and be like, I, Stan Tate McCrae, or is my emotion supposed to be like, that's for children. I'm an adult. And I think she's, like, almost giving us A path forward for frivolity where it's like, you don't need to be like. Like pretending you're 22 and nor do you need to be pretending you're 100.

[Matt]

That's genius. Yep. And actually, like. Like she has done both.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

She has done both.

[Matt]

She pretended she was 100 with Tony Bennett and with her Oscar campaign. She pretended she was 22. Kind of. Sorry, but like with parts of Chromatica. With parts of Even just like her with Aria. I. Listen, I'm. I love Rain on Me, but that there was something childlike about that. She was sort of like trying it on for size. Like, what if I'm dancing and I'm a kindness punk and I'm in the rain brain. And I do think there is this, like, she tried one side to try the other and now she's come out in the middle and she seems self actualized. And that's kind of what the best you can hope for.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah. I find that to be good, I think. Yeah. Amy. Amy, response?

[Leah]

I was going to ask a question about if you could design an album. You could design a. Either a Gaga album, I guess, or like a pop star, which you would feel like lifted up and electrified by. By this combination of things that they did. What would it be?

[Matt]

So your question is, what would our dream pop star be?

[Leah]

Is that so crazy?

[Matt]

I'm not. I didn't say it was so crazy.

[Leah]

Yeah, sort of. You were like, okay, wow, here's this. Here's this. They do this type of performance like.

[Matt]

This Nine Feet Tall.

[Leah]

All right.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

She has Whitney Houston's vocals.

[Leah]

Got it.

[Matt]

I'm writing the same, but she actually doesn't use them. She does all auto tune. It sounds really bad. It's like Kim Petra's autotune.

[Leah]

But she has a voice.

[Matt]

She has.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

She has a voice.

[Leah]

All right, keep going.

[Matt]

If she just sang karaoke, you would be shocked. But she refuses on principle to do that. When she gets into the studio. Studio.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I'm gonna say something really controversial. Her hair, it's ombre.

[Leah]

It's ombre. So. And when we're talking about what kind of colors, we're talking brown to blonde.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Traditional brown to blonde. And Beach.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

She's 9ft, 9ft tall with ombre beach waves.

[Matt]

And by the way, those beach waves are going straight down. Like down to her ankles, to her ass.

[Leah]

Ankles.

[Matt]

Nine foot beach waves from her head down to her ankles.

[Leah]

Got it.

[Matt]

She has the voice of an angel, but you literally wouldn't know it. In fact, everyone is saying she sounds. She clearly, like, has no vocal talent. That's what she always does. Auto tune. There's no one even.

[Leah]

There's controversy about her ability to sing, but. But secretly she can.

[Matt]

But. And she as part of her. As part of her act, like, as part of her performance and her, like, you know, performance of self. She. She is not revealing that she can sing.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

And she, like, every time she has a live performance where she's like, I'm doing, like, raw. Like a fly flies in her mouth. And she, like. And so people think she can't sing. Like, there's no proof that she can sing.

[Leah]

She's singing live. She's singing live.

[Matt]

Singing into an auto tune mic.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

And so it, like, she, like, you know, it's like not beating the can't sing allegations, I fear.

[Matt]

And actually there are all these. Yeah, and there are all these, like, bootleg. It's like people that have been in the studio with her know she can sing. And so there's like all these rumors, like, yeah, there's. These are the real vocals to Sound of Change.

[Leah]

But no one Sound of Change is the album.

[Matt]

It's one of the singles, but it was one of the less successful ones. So.

[Leah]

So she's. Okay, so I'm just saying the album. Okay, this is.

[Matt]

No, the album. The album is called, called Two Steps Back.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Two Steps Back.

[Leah]

Okay, now keep in mind, as you agree on that, this is like the biggest album. It's her. I would say it's her. It's cementing her as part of a great lineage of pop acts. And it's critically.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

And you have to be there. You have to be there. It's like one of those things where, like, if you try to explain it to, like, a child, they're like, I don't see why this was good. And you're like, trust me.

[Leah]

So what is that? Two Steps Back?

[Matt]

It's referencing a famous review of one of her other albums. That's saying she took one step forward, Two steps back.

[Leah]

Who wrote that? Pitchfork.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

The New York Times.

[Matt]

New York Times wrote it.

[Leah]

Amy, by the way, it's not so wild to even suggest that Pitchfork could be doing that since they review pop albums, by the way.

[Matt]

No, I know, but this is. I mean, in this, she's not commenting on Pitchfork. Like, that would be. So.

[Leah]

By the way, I think you. I think you fundamentally misunderstand the media landscape. But Pitchfork's like, whatever. Okay, okay, so New York Times said, once I. Forward Two Steps Back, she's coming out swinging with this album. What are the sounds that we're hearing.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Well, it's obviously electro clash.

[Leah]

I hear electro clash.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I'm hearing electro clash. I mean, it's, it's, it has some Euro dance dance elements.

[Matt]

It's Euro dance meets heavy metal.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

One thing is that she's always seen at clubs. Like, she actually does go out.

[Leah]

Okay. Always at clubs. George.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Anything.

[Matt]

I'm doing a mad lib here because she's, of course, nine feet tall, so she, it's like she can't really hide from the paparazzi.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Yeah.

[Matt]

She is polyamorous.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Bisexual.

[Matt]

Bisexual. And she does. She's, she says controversial things like she'll like, randomly say, like, the f. Slur.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

But it's like she kind of can. It's like weird.

[Matt]

She kind of can, but she also, in her normal life, is like, maybe super trad and, like, isn't.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

She's poly trad.

[Matt]

She's poly trad. Yeah. She's like Mormon, basically. And, and in terms of her fashion, she tried to, like, the fashion world tried to embrace her, but then she literally was like, these are just a bunch of faggots. Like, that was. She was just like, I don't want to be around this many gay men.

[Leah]

She's not fashion.

[Matt]

She is. She.

[Leah]

She is fashion.

[Matt]

It's complicated. She'll wear, like, a large nightgown.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

So. Does that answer your question?

[Leah]

Yeah, well, I'm just tallying it up and I'm crunching the numbers, so I.

[Matt]

That's the result of the number crunching.

[Leah]

Yeah, well, I, I really, I, I really didn't plan this. And I don't mean to even be saying this, but you have described more than not Lady Gaga herself, and I'm not even exaggerating or reaching here.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Oh, are you?

[Leah]

Has a voice but doesn't have a voice. Like, she's, I mean, being five foot tall is a lot like being nine foot tall.

[Matt]

That's true.

[Leah]

It's controversy. Singing line fly in her throat. I think that happens.

[Matt]

Sort of being secretly trad. I definitely think Gaga really wants a husband.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I mean, you've seen her at home, right? It's so sweet.

[Leah]

I just think the qualities you've touched on here are qualities of the woman herself.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Well, that's huge. I mean, I think that time will keep on passing and that Gaga will keep. Keep on standing, and I'm so curious as to how she'll reflect on us next time. Time.

[Matt]

I agree.

[Leah]

Yeah. God bless her.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

God bless her. Shout out to mayhem. I, you know, life is chaos, and you really proved that.

[Leah]

Yeah.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

I'm so glad the community can come together. And being in your 30s is actually rocks.

[Leah]

I wish I knew, but it was.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Like, yeah, you're 47, right? You skipped that.

[Matt]

And I just want to say, go out there and reheat your own nachos because you deserve it, Amy.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Does that make you mad?

[Leah]

No, it doesn't. It doesn't at all. And, yeah, this was really fun. And I want to say thank you for having me, because I know we can have a little fun here and there, but I'm honored to do this with you guys. And, yeah, I don't know, it feels sometimes like what we say about this could have real geopolitical impact, so.

[Matt]

And it will. And the wait.

[Leah]

Yeah, sometimes I can feel. Yeah, like a lot's on the line, but when I'm with you guys, I think I feel safe. Blade of Grass.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

It's an honor to have you on and to discuss this artist and this artwork. You have incredible insights and always have and always will. And we can't wait to have you back when we don't need to discuss some of the most important pieces of work of all time and continue just gab and goof.

[Matt]

Yeah. What's your straight topic going to be next time? Go.

[Leah]

My straight topic for next time? Hot sauce.

[Matt]

Hot sauce.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

All right, Huge.

[Matt]

Love that.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

See you in Coldplay Summer.

[Leah]

See you in the Coldplay summer.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Okay, Bye.

[Leah]

Bye.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Podcast ends now.

[Matt]

Want more? Subscribe to our Patreon for two extra episodes a month. Discord Access and more by heading to patreon.com stradiolife and for all our visual learners.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Free full length video episodes are available on our YouTube.

[Matt]

Now get back to work.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Stradia Lab is a production by Will Ferrell's Big Money players network and iHeart podcasts.

[Matt]

Created and hosted by George Severis and.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Sam Taggart, executive produced by Will Ferrell Hansani and Olivia Aguilar.

[Matt]

Co produced by Bay Wang.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Edited and engineered by Adam Avalos.

[Matt]

Artwork by Michael Fails and Matt Grubb.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

Theme music by Ben Kling.

[Matt]

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