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- [00:13]
A
Welcome, welcome. We're glad you're here. And we're going to get right into the questions. Greg, this first one comes from Will. Many are appalled by Christians near World War II concentration camps who at best failed to resist them and at worst profited from their evils. Yet we invest in or use firms like Amazon, which offer healthcare plans covering abortion services for workers. How are we any different?
- [00:41]
B
I tell you what, what's difficult about answering that question is how are we any different? Now, I know a lot about the Second World War. I read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Scherer painstakingly. I've watched many documentaries and films about. I have actually been in Poland, where I visited two of the six killing centers, that was Majdanek and Auschwitz. And yes, there were Christians, that is, people who claimed to be Christian, who were either silent or maybe even participated. There are many who didn't claim, who didn't participate and tried to rescue Jews. It strikes me on the one hand, first of all, that this example is so extreme, this other one is so extreme. I'm sympathetic to people, even genuine Christians, who were not willing to risk their lives to save Jews or to stand up against the Third Reich, because that's exactly what you'd be doing in that circumstance. Now, it would have been justifiable, as many did. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, for example, and Corrie 10 boom. And many, many who face the music for standing up against the Third Reich. But that doesn't mean everybody is morally obliged to put their life on the line because of what was going on there. I mean, there are lots of other considerations that are involved with that kind of thing. And to kind of consider there's any kind of parity between people going to Amazon, because people who sell goods on Amazon or maybe even the whole enterprise are leftist in their views and maybe give money. It's not even. Not on the map. It's not even close, okay? And even saying it's not even close makes it too close. They're universes apart. The second question, this has come up a lot. Are we. If we purchase a product from someone who uses whatever profit for some other use that we don't morally agree with, are we participating in the immoral use of the money that they make? And the answer is no. And in fact, it were the case because I'm not giving money to help that person. I'm giving money to get a product. And when I get the product, then whatever that person does with the money, that's on their conscience, not on Mine. Now, some people might say, I know they're doing this. I'm not going to shop at Amazon. And you're free to do that. But that's not the question. The question is, are we somehow morally complicit? And I don't see that in the moral equation at all. And in fact, if we were, then we are complicit every single time we spend money on anything because the people receiving the profit in different ways are fallen people who use their money in immoral ways. And we wouldn't be able to spend a dime if we were somehow morally connected to the way people use their funds. Now, you can find some organizations, a big sponsor of Planned Parenthood, and you say, I'm going to boycott them. I'm not going to buy their stuff because I'm not comfortable with that. Great. Vote with your pocketbook. However, to claim that anybody who doesn't do the same thing is somehow complicit in abortion in the same way. Well, and then trying to make a parallel with the Third Reich and the Christians. Just because a person says they're Christian doesn't mean they are. I mean, that ought to be obvious, but I think that whole circumstance was entirely different because of the nature of the oppression and the cost that there. It's one thing not to use Amazon, it's another thing to put your head on a chopping block by opposing the Third Reich because your head's going to get chopped off. And anybody who's read anything about that, I'm just stunned that when people would make comparisons like that or use the word Nazi in frivolous ways, you have no idea. You have no idea. So do a little reading and study. You see, there's no. No. But on a moral basis, I think that there's no parity here either.
- [05:09]
A
Now, I will say, if it bothers your conscience, then don't do it. I mean, that's totally fine. One way of how we're different is we're not just being silent about it. We're arguing against pro choice views. We're arguing for the life of the unborn. We do this all the time. We write about it, we talk about it. We try to persuade others. We. Not just staying silent. I mean, and I'm not just saying we as in you and me, Greg, but pro lifers, we are doing what we can to stop it. We're not staying silent. We're not just giving money to abortion clinics or ignoring them. We're actually arguing against them. People are going out there and they're protesting them, they're passing laws. We're doing all sorts of things to fight. Now, if you don't want any money going to Amazon because you don't want them to have it in their healthcare plan, I think actually it might be the case that in a lot of states it's required. I'm not positive about that, but I think that it might be required that people cover abortion. And didn't people have to fight against that and win a Supreme Court case? So it's everyone, like you said. Now if there's someone who makes a big, like some company that makes a big deal about it so that their whole product is tied up in that, I can think of examples of this. So, for example, let's say like Ben and Jerry's, they have certain leftist positions that they do tie up into their whole enterprise. And in that case, it could be that if you go there, people think that's the abortion plan. I'm not saying that this is Ben and Jerry's, but let's say there is
- [07:06]
B
a company, our ice cream is lousy anyways. I don't eat that stuff.
- [07:10]
A
Let's say there's a company that wrapped up in their identity is the whole idea of abortion and pro choice and we are for women and this is our identity. Now, in that case, now we've got a different situation. Now, even though you're not giving directly to abortion, in that case, you're still not giving directly. But now when you go, people see, oh, she's giving money to that place that loves abortion. Now, I don't think Amazon is at that level. I really don't. I don't think people see Amazon and think, oh, they're the people that support abortion. So I don't think that applies here, but I can see situations where that might apply. I can't think of one in specific, but there probably are companies that make a big deal about that. So, I mean, what I'm doing is I'm kind of touching on some of the ideas that Paul talks about in Romans 14 and in 1 Corinthians 9, I think it is 8 and 9 maybe. But he's talking about how sometimes when you do something that maybe it isn't even in itself wrong, and I know that's up for debate here, but maybe it's not in itself wrong that you buy something at that company. But if you are causing other people to think that you're saying that abortion is okay, then now you've got a problem. And then they're enabled to have abortion, because they're like, well, look, it's fine with that, Christian. So therefore it must be okay. That's when things start getting dicey. So I would look at what you're giving your money to, and if other people identify that as promoting abortion, then I would stay away from that. And other than that, don't give to Planned Parenthood. Don't give to places that provide abortion, because in that case, you are actually. You are paying for abortion in itself, not as a byproduct of them using
- [09:14]
B
their money, incidentally, just as a historical curiosity. Going back to Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Now, he was part of a plot to assassinate Hitler, and he got caught, and he was actually executed just a few weeks, I think, before the war ended. But if I remember right, he was part of the Abwehr. In other words, he was part of Nazi intelligence, military intelligence. And there were a whole bunch of people in that and also in the military that really wanted to get Hitler to kill Hitler. I mean, there were many different plots and they didn't work out, but he was part of the Nazi hierarchy participating in war planning and stuff like that. Now, he wasn't making that kind of contribution, but the fact that he was able to he penetrated in that level and worked with them so that he then had more opportunity to oppose the Reich. But I think it's interesting that that's the case, you know, so.
- [10:23]
A
All right, let's take a question from Jim. What is a polite response to the claim that putting up Christmas decorations at work discriminates against other religious holidays? I want to reply that I'll happily honor any other true religion, but that opens an entirely different discussion.
- [10:41]
B
Well, part of the difficulty here is the word discriminates. And I guess I'm tempted to say, well, yeah, I guess you got a point. So what? So what? When a Jew celebrates Passover and not Easter, is he not discriminating? In other words, he's against Christianity. Yeah, he's making a distinction. He discriminates between the two. They are different worldviews. They are different religions, and he aligns himself with one and not the other. So what happened here is the word discrimination has a very bad connotation. It's so ironic because when I was early in broadcasting, Standard Reason, too, the whole thing with the Boy Scouts was going on, and they were trying to hold the line morally and not have homosexual leaders and stuff like that. And they got into all kinds of trouble for discriminating against gays. Well, they were discriminating. Of course, they're making A distinction morally between two kinds of behaviors. And given that their organization is committed to raising young men that are morally straight, that was the language they used. I was a Boy Scout, morally straight, that this was not consistent with it. And so therefore they made this kind of distinction. But they also discriminated against girls, too, because there were Boy Scouts, not Girl Scouts. They had their own organization. But what was interesting is, of course, they use public facilities and whatever. And when this issue became public, a big deal about the gays and the Boy Scouts enterprises said facilities, said, we don't believe in any discrimination, and you discriminate, therefore you can't use our facility. I'm not making this up.
- [12:43]
A
They didn't see the irony of that?
- [12:44]
B
No, they didn't. Absolutely not. They were discriminating against the Boy Scouts. Okay? Now, maybe that discrimination was legitimate, but the point I'm making is discrimination itself is not wrong. It's only if you discriminate for the wrong reasons. And that's what the Civil Rights act of 64 was meant to clarify legally. But it took out a whole. Everybody discriminates. Everybody draws lines of distinction in and out, and they think that those lines are morally justified. Okay? So the issue isn't whether they discriminate. Of course they discriminate. That's why I'd say, in response to this person says, you're discriminating against other religions. Of course I'm discriminating. I'm not member. How come you don't wear a turban? You're discriminated against. Sikhs. You should wear a turban like a Sikh. Or if you don't wear a turban, then you're not. You're discriminating. I mean, that's silly, obviously. Silly. It's what people come up with. It's just really, this is what you spend your time thinking about. That's discrimination. Oh, please.
- [13:53]
A
It's unclear to me if he's talking about at his own desk or as a company. So I'm not sure if it's at your own desk. I think what I might respond is say, maybe what you need to do is ask what your definition of discrimination is. Maybe that's a good place to start. But I think I would say, look, I am celebrating my religion. Do you have a problem with me celebrating my religion? Are you going to discriminate against me because I want to celebrate my religion?
- [14:24]
B
There you go.
- [14:25]
A
So maybe put it in the words of celebrating rather than discriminating, because I'm trying to figure out what they would Say what? What do they mean by the fact that he's discriminating? Does he? Is he? Is he. They're saying that by celebrating Christmas, he's telling them that they're wrong. And is that discrimination? Why is telling someone they're wrong discrimination? There's so many, like you pointed out. This is, this is self refuting.
- [14:59]
B
This is where I kind of get to the end of my rope and I want to say, yeah, I'm discriminating. Okay, get a life that's kind of let the dead bury the dead, you know, because some of these kinds of objections are just so infantile and silly. If you choose to walk away. No, then in my view, you're justified. How is anybody going to be persuaded otherwise with that kind of objection? It's so nutty.
- [15:28]
A
I don't know.
- [15:28]
B
I think your question. You want to discriminate against my celebration? I think it's fair because now you're using their rules against them. And I think that's always a smart move, I guess.
- [15:41]
A
Again, I wish I knew if this was a company or just someone's desk,
- [15:46]
B
but Christmas, for example, is a national holiday. I know in California they just made a holiday out of some religious thing. Now that now your religion, Christmas is not celebrated in this country as a religious holiday. No Christian religious holiday is celebrated here. People who are not Christian, people who are atheists, people who are even Jews celebrate Christmas. It's a national holiday. That's a whole different category. You know, and if Easter wasn't on Sunday and it was on Wednesday, you wouldn't get the day off because it's Easter, because that's a uniquely Christian holiday. And our federal holidays are not meant to celebrate uniquely religious things until just recently in something in California. Goofy California.
- [16:30]
A
Yeah. Okay, let's go to a question from Jordan. How do we navigate a hostile work culture that denies us the hours and funds we need to live, save and prepare for our financial future simply because we have specific availability to engage with our church obligations? I don't know if that means on Sundays, like he wants Sundays off, or let's just assume that's probably the.
- [16:54]
B
Well, how do you navigate? Look, every job has requirements, and some employers are more flexible than others. But if you're choosing to. I know. I remember many years ago when I was working at Hope Chapel, we went to Chiat Day, which is in Santa Monica, was a very famous marketing organization. And we were looking at how they managed things and did stuff, and it was pretty cool. But they said, yeah, we only work half a day here, 12 hours, okay. That's their work environment, that's their culture. You want to work for Chey at day, you work 12 hours, that's it. And that may be seven days a week. You want the job, that's our thing. You don't like that? Okay, go somewhere else, that's fine. And I think that's how you navigate. I don't think it's characteristically, I don't think it's a good idea to go into. Accept the terms of a particular work culture and then complain about it if you can get the time off. My daughter Annabeth. Eva, not Annabeth, the younger one, the 18 year old, she went to work at Starbucks and also Cold Stone. She had two jobs there for a while. And she said, I don't want to work on Sundays. I go to church on Sundays. That was my terms. They accepted them. That she could say now if they would have said, no, you got to work on Sundays. She said, okay, I'll go somewhere else. And I kind of think that's the way to navigate these things.
- [18:31]
A
You do it beforehand before you take the job. Yeah.
- [18:33]
B
Well, you generally have an understanding of what your job requirements are and how much time it's going to take you. And then you just have to decide whether that's consistent with your own convictions about the use of time and religious activities and stuff like that. I think it's a mistake to walk in and say, well, I got my rats, I don't want to do this for you because I'm having a Bible study on Wednesday night and I'm going to church, blah, blah, blah. Then I can't go out of town for you. Well, get another job then. That would be. I think the employers, characteristically they're exceptions, has a point. Now. I'm thinking of one thing with the First. First Liberty. Is that the name of the organization? Yeah, First Liberty. And they're defending a woman who had a cross next to her desk and they wanted to fire her because she displaying a cross, well, that's a clear violation. She could do her job, everything. But they just didn't want the cross. And now that's being litigated. That's different. But not being able to have Sundays off and that's an intrusion in your private life. And well, you got to make a decision.
- [19:40]
A
I think there are laws that they, if they can reasonably accommodate your religious requests, like I think they do actually have to accommodate you. But I. So you could look into that. Cause maybe they're springing something new onto you that you didn't have to deal with before that you didn't know about. If that's the case, you can look into that where they do need to accommodate you. So you said First Liberties or Elias Defending Freedom. They could probably.
- [20:04]
B
These are other organizations, right?
- [20:05]
A
Yeah. They could probably help you with that. But the best thing would be to ask ahead of time.
- [20:09]
B
Yeah.
- [20:10]
A
Yeah, I agree with that. All right. Thank you so much, Will, Jim and Jordan, we appreciate hearing from you. We'd love to get your question on X with the hashtag strask or on our website@str.org thank you for listening. This is Amy hall and Greg Kochl for Stand to Reason.