Loading summary
Transcript44 lines
- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:13]
B
Welcome back. This is Amy hall, and I'm here with Greg Kokel. And Greg, the last time, in the last episode, we were talking about questions about if your child comes home and tells you they're gay and how to kind of approach witnessing situations with people who are lgbt. So I had a couple other questions along those lines. So we're just gonna continue with that. And I wanna direct people back to our previous one. If you haven't heard that one yet, it's a good idea to go back and listen to that one.
- [00:46]
A
It's a great show.
- [00:47]
B
Cause we set.
- [00:48]
A
We did so well.
- [00:49]
B
We said a lot of things.
- [00:50]
A
Oh, Amy did so well. And that was a great contribution. I learned a lot. Okay.
- [00:55]
B
Okay. So this first question comes from Pia. How do you tell the difference between someone righteously offended by homosexuality and a bully?
- [01:07]
A
I guess it seems to me that the distinction would be easy to discern. I'm trying to parse this out in my own mind because I've never thought about this issue before. Obviously, Jesus was righteously offended by certain things, but he didn't bully people. Sometimes he responded very aggressively and sometimes very gently. It all depends, you know, Just think of the words, come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest, for my yoke is easy, etc. It's such a comforting way he put it. But other times says you hypocrites, you know, and this is towards the end of his ministry, by the way, when he was really, really strong. What, Matthew 25 or whatever. Boom, boom, boom, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. On you. And he's speaking to these religious leaders that really were spiritually corrupting the people, and he was mad at them. Okay, so there are different ways, I think, to respond. If you look at Jesus, various responses. I think if a person was righteously offended, was that the way it was put?
- [02:14]
B
Righteously offended, Righteously offended versus bully.
- [02:18]
A
I think they're going to be. I guess there's going to be a mixture of anger and sadness. Anger and sadness. Because when people sin, and it's not just that they sin, in my mind, what creates the anger for us is not that they're sinning, but there's a distortion. There's a distortion of misleading. There's a good thing that is being corrupted and it's being championed as such. It reminds me of Romans 1, where Paul talks about homosexuality as an evidence of mankind's rebellion against God, suppressing the truth and unrighteousness. Then he talks about a whole bunch of other nasties at the end of the chapter. And then he says, not only do they do these things, but they give hearty approval, not righteous, hearty approval, to those who do them. And just think of one month out of the year how the whole country champions homosexuality as an example of that Gay Pride month coming up in June.
- [03:22]
B
And isn't it 2. Peter. That also talks about drawing other people into that also. That's another part of the sadness, is that they're deceiving others and bringing others.
- [03:33]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. And so. We have this combination of things where this is something that's beautiful, that has been twisted and distorted, and this is true of lots of different sins, not just this one. And so there's a sense in which it ought to make us really sad. But I can see how it would make us angry. I have two particular religions. I'm not going to go into it right now that I have a lot of animosity towards, but I have animosity towards them because of the way, the peculiar ways they distort the truth. Okay? I am angry about that because of the twistedness, the beautiful thing that's offered in the Gospel and the way it's corrupted by these particular groups. So I think that if we are righteously angry, I think it should be softened in some measure by the sadness that we have about what has been corrupted. But it stimulates this response of anger regarding the distortion. So I understand that. And I don't know if the question is entirely how can we tell it in another person or how do we tell it in ourselves? But bullying, though, is quite obvious to me. A bully is somebody who's just going after somebody else and pushing them around, returning evil for evil, being nasty, being mean. I mean, there's no positive side to that at all. Even if they might be correct in their moral assessment of whatever it is that they're bullying a person on. The bullying itself is unconscionable. Now, bullying happens all the time here, but almost entirely by the left in our culture. Used to be, I guess, by more conservative types, but not for the last 30 or 40 years. It's been the left that are the biggest bullies, even though they take. They say they take the moral high road and we're against bullying, but they don't stop the bullying of Christians kind of thing. And I'm not whining or complaining. We should expect that. But the point I'm making is that bullying is coming more from one side or the other, and it's attitudinal it's obvious when you see it. It's ugly. It isn't a righteous standing firm for what's true. It's an abuse of the other person in the way that you're posturing. And it almost looks like you're using the alleged righteous indignation as an opportunity to be cruel to the other person. Not that you really care about the issue itself.
- [06:26]
B
Or the person.
- [06:27]
A
Or the person. Yes, that's right, obviously. So that's the distinction that I would make there.
- [06:35]
B
I think what makes this. Answering this question difficult is because the culture often defines bullying as the mere effect of saying that it's wrong. So here's where it can be difficult. As we're being shaped by our culture's view and we're being told we're bullies just for saying it's wrong. This is where we have to really understand and be really clear about what it means to love and what it means to bully. Because remember, this is what Paul says about love. This is just one of the things. It does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. So nobody who loves another person, who sees them destroying themselves and thumbing their nose at God, and all the pain and the misery and the loss that will happen from that, nobody affirms that if they think that it's causing them loss and tragedy. Remember, the best thing you can do in this life is know God and glorify God. That is the best thing you can do with your life. If you get caught up in a lifestyle where you're thumbing your nose at him and you're running away from him and you're seeking other things, you will be destroyed partly now and in the end, completely. So love bullying is not telling someone that. So that's something. I think we have to be clear.
- [08:14]
A
Wait, I'm confused about your statement. You said bullying is not telling, in other words.
- [08:19]
B
No, no. The definition of bullying is not telling someone that what they're doing is wrong.
- [08:24]
A
Gotcha.
- [08:24]
B
Okay. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for asking me to clarify that. I think what we need to do is be. And this is also difficult, especially in this culture where people make memes and you get a lot of points for saying funny things and the temptation is to make fun of people. You'll see this all the time, and not just. And I'm not talking about this category, just anything anyone you disagree with. Go online. You'll find the memes. You have to decide now that you are not going to make fun of people. And I think that's where it's either denigrating them or personally or making fun of them, either of those two ways you're harming their human dignity.
- [09:12]
A
Even in private, by the way.
- [09:13]
B
Even in private. Even in private. And let me tell you, there will be times when you'll be tempted to make a joke that is funny, but if it's at the expense of someone's dignity, even someone you don't know, sometimes people feel like. Like celebrities are fair game because they're not real people in their minds. And I have stories about that. But I don't wanna get off track where I realized, oh my. I was thinking about this person as not a real person. And it turns out they're a real person. And certain things can bring that home at times. Just remember they're all human beings. Every person who disagrees with you. And just make up your mind now not to make fun of them or not to gain points at their expense. So that is one thing I would say.
- [10:04]
A
By the way, the verse you read there in 1 Corinthians 13 about love does not rejoice in unrighteousness. It also says that love does not act unbecomingly.
- [10:13]
B
Yes, right. The second thing is, how do you tell if they're being a bully or they're righteously offended? I would say that I always think of this quote from John Piper. I saw this. It must have been more than 20 years ago. And it has stuck with me. And I even looked it up to make sure I had it right. And I did have it word for word because it impacted me so much. He said, the salt of the earth does not mock rotting meat. Where it can, it saves. In seasons. Where it can't, it weeps. Is that the person's attitude?
- [10:54]
A
Say it again. So good.
- [10:55]
B
The salt of the earth does not mock rotting meat. Where it can, it saves. In seasons. Where it can't, it weeps. To me, that summarizes exactly what our attitude ought to be. And if that's not your attitude, then it may be that you're trying to win points with people and get a following and make them laugh, but you don't actually care about God's name and his glory and the other person's good.
- [11:28]
A
We have an ethic at standard reason, and it's that these engagements with people, especially when they're public as apologists, these are not gladiator events. We are not looking to draw blood. We are not looking for mic drop moments. There may be some mic drop moments, but we're not playing to that. We are trying to communicate the truth clearly, effectively and persuasively, but we are not trying to win points and draw first blood. But that's the way a lot of the Internet is right now, even with Christian influencers. Right?
- [12:06]
B
Right. And I would also say if you're evaluating whether someone is being a bully or they're righteously offended and trying to speak the truth the best way they can. And look, we're all going to mess up, okay? So you just have to have some grace for people. But I would say the second thing is you look for someone who's reflecting the gospel. And by that I mean there's an acknowledgement and there's a humility there that, yes, cares about God's law and cares about God's glory and the truth and all of those things and the good of the person, but they also have an awareness of their own sin and need for grace. And so here's what Titus 3 says. It says, remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. And now here's the reason for we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love for mankind appeared, he saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy.
- [13:31]
A
That's a favorite passage. It's great.
- [13:33]
B
So you have to come into this, if you come into this with that awareness. And I would also read through 1 Peter, which talks about how we reflect Jesus in the way we treat people who disagree with us and who are persecuting us or whatever it is they're doing. We are reflecting the gospel back when we treat them well, even if they're not treating us well. That's what we ought to be doing. But don't fall into the trap to think that treating someone well means never telling them they're wrong. But all of these things, I think, can direct us in figuring out who's the bully and who's actually speaking the truth in life.
- [14:13]
A
That's a great question, Pia. Thank you.
- [14:16]
B
So here's a question from Michael. My friends who seem to be more cultural Christians, were complaining about how some people in public are dressing in bizarre ways, more often like men in women's dresses. I want to challenge them to think Deeper beyond a nominal Christian mindset, how might you approach this topic?
- [14:33]
A
Well, I am. Long pause here because I guess, at least initially, maybe I'd like to hear from you first. But I don't know exactly how I do that. Part of it is I'm not sure. I mean, I think I need to know more about these nominal Christians and what their motivations are and what's going on with them. I mean, if they're nominal Christians, it means they're not Christians. My presumption is they're people who. I almost said posers, but that's not quite what's going on. It's people who self identify as Christians, but they don't understand probably what a rich and full bodied commitment to Christ is and to live a life like that. So I get that. So that would be the problem. It's like, what do they expect? We live in Southern California for goodness sake. I mean, everywhere you go there's kind of craziness. And actually it's not just Southern Cal. You go to any major city in the US I remember when my wife and I were in Denver a couple of years ago and it was just so like we're downtown. It was like, wow, this is crazy here. So it was so many weird things going on and manifestations of people's trips and whatever. But these are just what people are doing, I think, to largely compensate for. I mean, this sounds judgmental, but I say a shallow sense of self. What are they working with? They're not working with a theistic worldview they don't understand and they're made the image of God and they live in the world that God made. They've gotta make their own way and they've gotta stand out and somehow make their own splash.
- [16:16]
B
Or they have to create themselves through their own expression and their value. They have to create themselves. I think that's what's.
- [16:23]
A
Yeah. And Alan has written about this. How human beings weren't meant to carry the burden of creating their own identities. We're not big enough for that. We need a larger reference point. This is something, a theme that Francis Schaeffer used to play as well. So those are the thoughts that come to mind on this one. Maybe this is thinking deeper. You know what they're doing. They're trying to say, I'm someone, I'm someone, I'm important, I'm valuable. And maybe the way they're saying it is I'm important and I'm valuable, I'm someone because I'm doing what I want to do. I am the master of my own fate, captain of my own soul, whatever. And that's the way they're trying to say this, by the way. It looks really obvious to me when I see people in public. I'm in a lot of airports, obviously, and I see lots of people, and I get struck by what I see and what they're wearing and the way they're posturing and acting and everything that they're just saying. It's like screaming almost. I'm trying to be valuable, important, significant, whatever, whatever. It's not everybody. It's not like I'm passing judgment on everyone I walk by. But I see this and it hurts my heart for them. And I think, in my heart, I think I wish they knew Jesus. I wish they knew the Lord. I wish they were grounded in reality and accepted and loved in virtue of being made the image of God and being rescued through Jesus. I wish they knew that, because I think when people know that, it changes how they posture about themselves.
- [18:06]
B
So. And I would say if the goal here is to use this as an opportunity to draw these nominal Christians into a deeper understanding of God and the gospel. First of all, if they're saying they're Christians, you. That's. What's the word I'm looking for? You've got a. That's your ticket springboard. You could step right into there and talk in ways that include them in Christianity and they'll, you know, what are they going to say? Yeah, they're saying they're Christians. Okay. So I like what you say about kind of pointing them. That was exactly what my idea was, is to kind of use this to bring them into a deeper understanding of the Christian worldview. And what you might want to say is, you know, because with these cultural Christians, sometimes we get gut feelings about things just because we've been shaped by a worldview. And we can't necessarily explain why. So what you wanna do is move it to maybe a positive view of God's good design. So the beauty of God's design. Well, you know, we feel this way, you know, sometimes we don't really know why, but the truth is because we know the beauty of God's design. And we see this and we see that it's a twisting of. And then you could talk about God's design, and then I would move from there to. So that's kind of establishing the idea of God as creator and as good and beautiful, and then you can move from there to have compassion. You touched on both of these ideas, Greg. Move to the idea of compassion for those who have walked away from that. And that's a springboard for the gospel right there. So you kind of get the basics of who God is and what the gospel is, and now you've got all the big ideas of Christianity, all in response to what you're viewing around you.
- [20:12]
A
Yeah, I have to be completely transparent here. That's not always easy for me to do. And it's easy to look at these others that are departing and going off and whatever their trip happens to be as manifest by their clothing and their behavior and all this other stuff, and to be condescending how it won't. Well, I've got something they don't have kind of thing. And I'm not proud of that, obviously, but something I have to fight to be able to see these people as image bearers and as lost, you know, as sadly lost. And that's kind of a discipline for me. So this is not always easy to manage.
- [20:53]
B
Right.
- [20:54]
A
Just saying.
- [20:55]
B
I think the more we allow ourselves to be shaped by the gospel, the more we immerse ourselves in our own situation. And, you know, this is what Paul talks about in the first three chapters of Ephesians. It's so focused on the grace of God and what we deserved. And then he moves into chapter four, and he says, now walk in a way worthy of that. And I always, for the longest time, I thought it meant, oh, so do what's good, be a good person. But that's not actually what he meant. He meant walk in a way that's worthy of the grace you received. Because what he goes on to explain is things that go along with that, like humility, unity, all the things that result from seeing the love of God and the grace of God. Now you walk in ways that reflect that because there are specific ways that
- [21:45]
A
that plays out, manifests itself. Right.
- [21:48]
B
So notice he spent three half the book talking about the gospel and shaping them with the gospel. And then he moves to, now, here's how those things play out in your life. So that's what we need to do. We need to immerse ourselves in that. And the more we do that, the more we will be shaped to reflect that back to others.
- [22:09]
A
Nice.
- [22:10]
B
Okay, Pia and Michael, thank you so much. The last couple episodes have been, you know, I'm sure this is a very difficult topic for people, but I hope that helps you to figure out how to interact with the people in our culture who need God, just like we all do. So I hope that was helpful. Thank you so much. And we'd love to hear from you on X with the hashtag strask or on our website@str.org this is Amy hall and Greg Koukl for Stand to Reason.