How Does the New Earth Tie in with Going to Heaven After We Die?

Summary

Podcast Summary: #STRask – How Does the New Earth Tie in with Going to Heaven After We Die?

Date: June 4, 2026
Hosts: Greg Koukl (B), Amy Hall (A)
Main Theme:
Greg and Amy answer listener questions about Christian understandings of the afterlife, resurrection, and the new heavens and new earth, as well as about biblical teachings about communicating with the dead. They discuss common misconceptions, scriptural clarifications, and the complicated nature of eschatological (end times) prophecy.

---

Episode Overview

This episode addresses several common theological questions:

• What happens immediately after death for Christians?
• How do the concepts of “heaven” and the “new earth” interrelate?
• Are only special figures like Elijah and Enoch taken directly to God?
• Are biblical prophecies about the future literal or metaphorical?
• Can people in heaven observe earthly events?
• What does the Bible say about talking to the dead?

---

1. Heaven, the New Earth, and the Intermediate State

Listener Question:
“If we go to heaven after we die, how do the new Earth and New Jerusalem in Revelation fit in? Also, only Elijah and Enoch were taken directly to God—are we as worthy?”

Key Points:

• Distinction Between Heaven and the New Earth

  • “There is a difference between heaven and the new heavens and the new earth.” (B, 01:06)
  • When Christians die now, their souls go to be with the Lord; their bodies remain until the resurrection.
  • At the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15), believers receive imperishable, resurrection bodies.

• Immediate Presence with God

  • “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” (A, 01:31)
  • Jesus to the thief on the cross: “Today you will be with me in paradise.” (B, 01:33)
  • No significant waiting period is suggested; presence with the Lord is immediate after death for believers.

• Resurrection and the “Rapture”

  • The resurrection and so-called “rapture” are not separate events, but part of the same process at Christ’s return.
  • “That the mortal will put on immortality in a blinking of an eye ... in a twinkling of an eye, the trump will sound.” (B, 09:18)
  • Everyone who belongs to Christ (whether dead or alive at His return) receives a resurrection body.

Notable Quote:

“When you die now, you be with the Lord in your soul, spirit, and then after the resurrection, you are with the Lord in a bodily form, a resurrected bodily form. I think that's pretty standard.” – Greg Koukl, (05:41)

---

2. Worthiness, Grace, and the Examples of Enoch and Elijah

Listener Concern:
“Surely we are not as worthy as Enoch or Elijah to be ‘transported’ directly to God.”

Key Points:

• Enoch and Elijah’s Exception
  • Their exception is that they did not experience death; most believers do.
• No One is Worthy
  • “Nobody is worthy. God gave them that grace...” (A, 08:01)
  • Even the thief on the cross, who had nothing good to show, was promised paradise by Christ.
• Entrance Into God’s Presence
  • The basis is always God’s grace, not human merit.

Notable Quote:

“The fact that we're being transported directly to God once we die, it's not like after we die, we're going to pay for it in some way, and then we're worthy to see God. The only reason we're with God at all is because of grace.” – Amy Hall, (08:45)

---

3. Interpreting Prophetic Literature (Isaiah and the New Creation)

Listener Question:
“Is Isaiah 65:17–25 metaphorical, especially about having babies, given that Jesus said there’s no marriage in the resurrection (Matthew 22)?”

Key Points:

• Jesus’s Teaching About Marriage
  • “They will neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven.” (B, 10:47)
• Isaiah’s New Heavens/New Earth
  • The passage mentions babies being born, people dying at 100, etc., suggesting mortality.
  • Greg suggests this could refer to the Millennial Kingdom—if one holds a premillennial view—but admits ambiguity.
• Possibility of Metaphor or Dual Fulfillment
  • There could be both near-term/partial and ultimate/final prophetic fulfillment.
  • The imagery may simply communicate complete blessing.

Notable Quotes:

“There is something coming that is going to have mortal people in it, but not affected in the same way by the fall as people are now.” – Greg Koukl, (12:45)

“If it's a metaphor, the question is, what are these details a metaphor of?” – Greg Koukl, (14:14)

---

4. Can the Dead See What Happens on Earth?

Listener Question:
“At funerals people say the deceased is ‘smiling down on us’—is this biblical? Can people in heaven or hell see what happens on earth?”

Key Points:

• Biblical Ambiguity
  • Hebrews 11–12 and Revelation suggest some awareness.
  • “Surrounding us” doesn’t necessarily mean observing.
• Open to Interpretation
  • Amy: “I think it's probably, certainly the case that they have a general idea of what's going on because of what the martyrs say.” (A, 16:53)
  • Greg: “My sense is they're aware, but it's open to interpretation.” (B, 17:46)

---

5. Communicating with the Dead (Necromancy)

Listener Question:
“The Bible says don’t communicate with the dead. Does that mean don’t try to get them to respond, or don’t even talk to them at all?”

Key Points:

• Necromancy Strictly Prohibited
  • “Making an appeal to dead is an occult, a dark occultic practice that is forbidden in the Old Testament.” (B, 18:44)
  • Applies regardless of whether you expect a response.
• Contrast with Innocent Expressions
  • Casual remarks (“I wish you were here”) may be innocent, more about emotions or memories.
  • Formal prayer or “requesting” something from the dead crosses the line.

Notable Quotes:

“It doesn't matter whether the dead talk back to you or not or whether you're asking them to come back and communicate with you. Making an appeal to dead is an occult, a dark occultic practice that is forbidden in the Old Testament.” – Greg Koukl, (18:50)

“What I have done in the past is I've asked God, like, can you tell so and so this for me ... I don't think that's quite the same thing.” – Amy Hall, (24:19)

---

6. Eschatological Uncertainty and Humility

Big Picture Reflection:

• There is ambiguity in prophecy; fulfillment often clarifies earlier confusion.
• “The fulfillment will be the final interpretation ... Before that, I think there's ambiguity and uncertainty and there are different options.” – Greg Koukl, (05:20)

---

Timestamps of Key Segments

• How “heaven” and the “new earth” relate: 00:54–06:42
• Enoch, Elijah, and worthiness: 07:15–09:18
• Isaiah & end-times prophecy (babies, death): 10:24–15:43
• Awareness of the dead about earth: 15:43–18:29
• Communicating with the dead: 18:29–25:07

---

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “Nobody is less worthy than a thief on a cross who has not done anything good after his salvation. But there he is where Jesus is saying to him, today, you will be with me in paradise.” (A, 08:02)
• “The only reason we're with God at all is because of grace.” (A, 08:45)
• “Necromancy ... is prohibited. Prayers to the dead are prohibited. It doesn't matter whether the dead talk back to you or not.” (B, 18:50)
• “The fulfillment will be the final interpretation.” (B, 05:20)

---

Conclusion

The hosts emphasize the importance of distinguishing between biblical teachings and cultural assumptions about the afterlife. They underscore the centrality of grace, the limits of our present understanding of prophecy, and the need for care regarding practices the Bible forbids. Ambiguity in some areas is acknowledged, but on essentials—immediate presence with God after death, the certainty of resurrection, and the prohibition on necromancy—the hosts present a clear, scripturally grounded perspective.

Transcript

[A]

Thanks so much for joining us on the STRS podcast, Greg. This first question comes from M. Deo. If the church teaches that we go to heaven after we die, then how does the new Earth and New Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation tie in? Also, only Elijah and Enoch were taken directly to God's presence. Surely we are not as worthy as they were. I just can't see that we would be transported directly to God once we die. Scripture hints and alludes to many things about the afterlife, but lacks defining it. Are we perhaps misleading people based off assumptions? This idea was greatly debated until Milton wrote Paradise Lost. Then it became generally accepted, I guess.

[B]

Well, I'm not sure about Milton and Paradise Lost and what was debated. And then something became generally accepted, I

[A]

think going directly to heaven when we die as opposed to later on.

[B]

Okay. There is a difference between heaven and the new heavens and the new earth. Okay. And I think this is a fairly standard eschatology, depending on how people may divide it up a little differently. But when we die, we go to be with the Lord. That is, our souls go to be with the Lord. Our bodies stay behind until the resurrection.

[A]

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

[B]

Exactly. And Jesus said to the thief on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise. This is very standard. And to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord is decisive as a statement. So there is no, I think, lag time, no significant lag time. There may be a kind of an existential journey. You experience something and people have NDEs, near death experiences. Sometimes they'll talk about things happening before they finally get to heaven and then are sent back or whatever. But basically to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. But you are present in a disembodied state. It isn't until the resurrection that the mortal, the perishable, puts on the imperishable. This is 1 Corinthians 15. And the mortal puts on immortality. In other words, the dead will rise first. That's the perishable puts on the imperishable, the new imperishable body. And there's going to be a generation that don't die before they receive their resurrected body. That's the mortal taking on immortality. And this happens at the resurrection. Some people make reference to the so called Rapture as a separate event from this. I don't think it is a separate event. And I think the word rapture, it comes from a Latin word that is out of which a section of or used in translation of a section of 1 thess 4. I think that word is misleading because it makes it sound like the resurrection and the rapture are two separate things. But even in the context of 1 Thess 4 Corinthians 15, these things happen at the coming of the Lord anyway. So the point is, depending on when you die, different things happen. If you die now, then you go to be with the Lord your soul, but your body doesn't. At the resurrection, then you receive your resurrection body, and those who are on the earth now receive a resurrection body, but not having died. I think that's the force of the first Corinthians 15 passage. Okay, now what? Well, this is where people have different ideas. It could be that the Great White Throne judgment comes later and you got a thousand years of a millennial kingdom where different things are happening, which looks like possibly a lot of the promises that God made to national Israel and regarding the other nations will come to pass during that period. But that won't be the end of all things. After the Great White Throne Judgment, the end of all things, then there's a new heavens and a new earth that are created. And our place of abode with our resurrection bodies is going to be here on this earth, but it's going to be a new earth. And new heavens means new atmospheres, I mean skies, not a new heaven in the sense we think about going to heaven to be with God. The Word is used differently in different contexts. So how that all plays out I think is confusing. And I think some broad elements can be established as to what takes place. And mostly what I discussed is an example of that, although one particular part that is the millennial kingdom is a premillennial view. Jesus is returning before an actual thousand year kingdom and things are going to take place there and then the new heavens and the new earth. And not everybody holds that view. But anyway, broadly, I don't think there's too much controversial about what I just said, but working out the details, that's really hard. And the same thing was true about Jesus first coming. As we look back on it now, we can see all of these particulars, these typologies, these prophecies that were maybe embedded in other texts that didn't seem so obviously in their first reading to refer to Christ. But then it kind of all gets put together and Jesus talked to the boys on the road to Emmaus and reflected back at all of the prophets and the law, et cetera, and how Jesus was prefigured there. So it's come together more in its fulfillment. And I think we have a similar thing about the second coming. That the fulfillment will be the final interpretation is what I like to say. And there are different ideas of how this will play out, but when it happens, oh, that's going to be it. That's the correct way to understand it. Before that, I think there's ambiguity and uncertainty and there are different options. But the ones I just explained that when you die now, you be with the Lord in your soul, spirit, and then after the resurrection, you are with the Lord in a bodily form, a resurrected bodily form. I think that's pretty standard. After that, we'll see.

[A]

And it's not just standard in terms of teaching. It's also. That's what the scripture says. It's not just that, because there's somewhat of an idea here that maybe we started off making assumptions based on Milton and that's how this all came about. But you mentioned some Bible verses. And another example would be the martyrs who are with Jesus now between their death and the creation of the new earth. So that's another example of people we see with God now before the resurrection.

[B]

Hebrews 11 talks about them and chapter 12 talks about this great cloud of witnesses that are some sense beholding what's going on.

[A]

Oh, and I was talking about Revelation where they're saying, how long until you. Until you bring about justice in both cases. Now, I also want to note here the question, you know, Elijah and Enoch were taken directly into God's presence. Surely we are not as worthy as they were. Well, two things here. First of all, the special situation for Elijah and Enoch was that they didn't go through death. That was the special thing for them. We know that other people are with God after death because here are the martyrs. And nobody is less worthy than a thief on a cross who has not done anything good after his salvation. But there he is where Jesus is saying to him, today, you will be with me in paradise. So the special thing that Elijah and Enoch got was that they didn't die. They didn't have to go through death, whereas everyone else has. But even beyond that, surely we're not as worthy as they are. Nobody is worthy. Nobody is worthy. God gave them that grace. And obviously they had played huge part in God's plan. And they were certainly righteous people in terms of what's the word? I'm looking for relative righteousness in terms of other people and what they did for the Lord. But we are in God's presence by his grace. Even they were in God's presence by their grace. By his grace, I mean, sorry, by his grace for them. So the fact that we're being transported directly to God once we die, it's not like after we die, we're going to pay for it in some way, and then we're worthy to see God. The only reason we're with God at all is because of grace. So this idea that our unworthiness means we won't be with God, that is just to miss how we're with God in the first place. And it is by grace.

[B]

By the way, it's not just Enoch and Elijah, but that entire generation who are alive at the visible return of Christ will also not taste death. And we talked about that already, that the mortal will put on immortality in a blinking of an eye. You know, in a twinkling of an eye, the trump will sound. First Corinthians 15 talks about this. So there is a whole generation that will not. And you can't, because these people are alive. When Jesus returns, the dead in Christ rise first, but what do you do then? They are, in a certain sense, resurrected without having died. That is, they get their resurrected bodies. It's the moment that many people refer to as Rapture. And there's debate between different people about when that's going to take place. I think it's just obvious reading the text, which tells you when this event that is called the Rapture takes place. And it happens on the second coming of Christ at the coming of the Lord, which is the second coming, not the first coming. And there's no third coming. And that coming is visible, powerful and conclusive according to the Olivet discourse.

[A]

Let's go to a question from Julie. Is Isaiah 65, 17:25 metaphor, especially the part about having babies. In Matthew 22, 29, 32, Jesus says, We won't be married after the resurrection. I'm just curious about your thoughts on this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you want to summarize?

[B]

I'm looking at the Matthew passage, says Jesus answered to him, you are mistaken. This has to do with the resurrection. He's being challenged about the resurrection regarding the resurrection of the dead. Let's see, they will neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven. So I take that at face value. After the resurrection, bodies may be, in a certain sense, sexed or gendered, because human beings are gendered. They're male or female. So I think we are going to sustain that, but we will not have the reproductive capacity. There's no need for that. So there's not going to be any marriage in heaven and that sexual relationship that accompanies it. Something else is going to be going on. Now the book of Isaiah talks about the new heavens and the new earth. And this is Isaiah 65, 17 and following. And it talks about children there, the children that you won't hear, the voice of weeping and the sound of crying. No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days or an old man who does not live out his days. For the youth will die at the age of 100, and the 1 who does not reach the age of 100 will be thought accursed. So it's clear in this passage that there is something coming that is going to have mortal people in it, but not affected in the same way by the fall as people are now. But they're mortal because they're dying. And this is, you know, they live out their full days and if they don't live to 100, people are going to think that's weird. This may be something. Speaking of the millennial kingdom, where at least on one view you have a thousand year reign of Jesus on earth where human beings are still reproducing because there are people after the resurrection. Remember, the resurrection is just for believers. When Jesus returned, it seems there are going to be human beings that are humans during this time that can reproduce. But after the end of this reign there's another rebellion where Satan is released for a time. Now that's a very particular theological position called premillennialism. It seems to make a lot of sense to me and would make sense of this passage. But just keep in mind, it certainly is that all of the believers in Christ up until the second coming of Christ who get raised have new bodies, but that doesn't mean every human being on the earth does. And there will be people that come afterwards that don't get resurrected who ended up believing in Jesus after that resurrection or at least survive that and then go into the millennial kingdom in which there's kind of a glorious thing happening where Jesus is ruling over that. These are the parts that are a little bit vague. It's uncertain.

[A]

Do you think it's possible it's some sort of metaphor or just creating the idea that there won't be any sadness, there won't be any corruption, there won't be any, I want to say death, but it also says they'll live out their days, which implies a death. I don't know.

[B]

I really don't know how I. I guess it's Possible. But if it's a metaphor, the question is, what are these details a metaphor of?

[A]

Could there be more than one fulfillment? Like this is talking about something in their time, but also something at the end.

[B]

It's possible. Whenever you have prophetic stuff, there is that possibility of kind of a dual fulfillment, an earlier partial fulfillment, like John the Baptist was Elijah, but there's also an Elijah to come. And Jesus talks like this. So those are all possibilities.

[A]

And these are also. I think they're all the blessings are promised in the old covenant. So this could just be a way of saying, all of the promised blessings will be fulfilled to you. All of my promises will be fulfilled to you. All of the results that were promised for faithfulness will be given to you.

[B]

Well, there's quite a bit of detail in these, what, seven, eight verses. And I think that lends itself to something more substantial than a mere kind of metaphorical characterization. But I'd lean in that direction, but I can't be dogmatic about it. These kinds of things confuse me because, again, we're trying to in advance imagine what exactly is taking place. And that's fraught with difficulty about the future. And as it turns out, like I said, the fulfillment will be the final interpretation. We'll see.

[A]

Here's a question from Trombona at Tramina. It's not uncommon to hear people say at a memorial service or funeral things like so and so the deceased is smiling down on us. Thoughts. Are people in heaven or hell aware of things on earth?

[B]

Yeah, I think. And we made reference a little bit ago to the cloud of witnesses that we see in Hebrews 12. And also he made reference to Revelation, where the martyrs are crying out, how long, O Lord, until he executes justice on the world. So whether they're smiling down or whether the individual they're referring to is smiling down, that's another question. People have a way of. This is eulogy, right? You say a good word, so you assume the best. Yeah, well, now they're in a more peaceful place, et cetera, et cetera. And there may not be any evidence in their life that they actually knew Christ and received the forgiveness that would qualify them for heaven and smiling down on us. But in general, I think. Yes, I think that's certainly possible.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know for sure. I think it's probably, certainly the case that they have a general idea of what's going on because of what the martyrs say. I think the witnesses could just be. We have all these people we're looking to. So I think that could go either way. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't rule it out

[B]

after chapter 11 in Hebrews, which is the great people of faith. All right, therefore, chapter 12, verse 1 and following. Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, I guess it doesn't say looking down, but surrounding us, of course.

[A]

Are they witnesses to God and faith or are they witnessing us? I think that's the question,

[B]

but it's also surrounding us, so I don't know. My sense is they're aware, but it's open to interpretation. Let us also, like them, lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us. Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, sat down with the right hand of the Father. Consider him. Except now Jesus is the model. I've read quite a bit there. It's a beautiful passage. I like it. So I guess that's open to interpretation. I guess.

[A]

All right, here's a question from Katie. The Bible says don't communicate with the dead. Does that mean don't try to get them to respond or don't even talk to them, even if you're not expecting a response and even if you know response is not them?

[B]

Well, this strikes me as an easy thing to answer. Let's just see. Let's say you have children that. Let's say you have a daughter and she had been in a not a healthy relationship with another person and you said you are not allowed to communicate with that person anymore. This is not good. You got to move away from that relationship. I don't think a parent expressing that concern would be happy with there not being a two way dialogue necessarily. But the daughter could still send missives to the guy on a regular basis, semi regular basis. No, I think that misses the point. The parents are saying, cut it off, this is over. Stop it because you are vulnerable emotionally as long as you continue to do this. Now I think that's analogous to the circumstance. God says, do not call on the dead. And this is necromancy and it is prohibited. Prayers to the dead are prohibited. It doesn't matter whether the dead talk back to you or not or whether you're asking them to come back and communicate with you. Making an appeal to dead is an occult, a dark occultic practice that is forbidden in the Old Testament. Now there are legions of people who consider themselves Christians who do this. And I don't understand why it's not obvious to them that this is inconsistent with the scripture teaches. Because they are asking dead people to do something for them that only living people are supposed to be able to do. Pray for us, intercede for us. That's what we're told in the New Testament Testament or Jesus himself is supposed to do on our behalf in intercession. And so that kind of cuts off this line. I'd want to see what the justification anybody offers me of praying to saints, for example, in light of that prohibition of the Old Testament, which just seems to me so obviously clear now. I know some people have a. There's a church tradition of this kind of thing, and then what they're going to look for is they're going to look for opportunities to justify the behavior with kind of a roundabout way of viewing it. And it's like having idols that you. I mean, having statues that you kneel before and pray. Oh, we're not praying to the statue. We're praying to the God, the statue, or to the person who the statue represents. That's exactly what happened with the Jews in the Old Testament. BAAL wasn't a statue. You can make a statue representing BAAL and the Ashtaroth, et cetera, et cetera. So it just strikes me that this is obviously wrong in light of Old Testament teaching. And it's not just a legalistic thing like, well, that's the way you interpret it. There's a rationale behind it connecting one with the dead who are gone and potentially short circuiting what got Jesus is supposed to do in your life or living people like, we pray for each other, that kind of thing, and it's just straight out prohibited in the scriptures.

[A]

Well, leaving aside the idea of, say, a more formal prayer or requesting something from them, what about someone who's just saying something like, oh, so and so I wish you were here, or little Charlie did this today and something like that. Do you put that in the same category or how would you kind of.

[B]

Well, remember the earlier question of they're down here smiling down on us kind of thing? That would make sense of that kind of thing, I guess. Let me put it this way. I'm uncomfortable with it, but I am open to seeing it as somewhat as a innocent kind of thing. It's more of an emotive thing even. You know, it might be that people who don't even believe in heaven could say those kinds of things. And I feel his presence or something, and they're talking about their own emotional thing. I'm watching a series right now called Can't Remember the Name of British Thing where a boy is murdered or. Yeah, he's killed. It looks like he's murdered. And they're trying to figure out who did it in this small town. And it's a Broadchurch. Broadchurch, yeah. And it's fascinating and so well acted and written and very mysterious. This is our second time through, so at least for the first time, first season, and people are talking about this boy, the grief for him. In that situation. They might not even believe in the soul or whatever. They can talk in a sense about his presence, referring to their memories and the like. So I think that can be innocent. I wouldn't make a big deal about that at all. But if it was a more directed way. I mean, some of these movies, they're trying to get the. The kid to communicate with him. There's another one we saw. They're trying to tell me, you know. Yeah, I feel as president, they almost have a seance, I think, and they're trying to get the murdered daughter to speak to the mother. Or there's a line of communication that's just off the charts.

[A]

I think the ease in which you could slip from just an innocent speaking things out loud into starting to do more of a prayer type thing. I think I would just stay away from it. What I have done in the past is I've asked God, like, can you tell so and so this for me, tell him this, I have done that. I don't think that's quite the same thing.

[B]

Well, no, it's a relay through God,

[A]

because I'm asking God if he can.

[B]

Yeah, you're not calling on the dead. And that's really what it amounts to. I mean, those who call on the dead, I think is the wording from the Old Testament.

[A]

And I think God's concern with this is that he doesn't want. Want us seeking help from other sources other than him. I think that's his main concern. But. But he also doesn't want us opening ourselves up to other spiritual forces that will be speaking to us, lying about who they are. I mean, I. I think there's all sorts of traps there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, that's it for today, Greg. Thank you. Mdeo and Julie and Trombona, Tramina and Katie. We got through four questions.

[B]

We did.

[A]

I think one time we might have gotten through five, but I think this is the most we usually get.

[B]

Sometimes we only get through one because it's so involved that's great, but thank

[A]

you so much for sending in your questions. And if you have one you haven't sent it in yet, send it in, go to x, use the hashtag strask or go to our [e-mail] this is Amy hall and Greg Kochl for Stand to Reason.