Someone Who Died Saving the Life of Another Shouldn’t Be Punished with Hell

Summary

Podcast Summary: #STRask – "Someone Who Died Saving the Life of Another Shouldn’t Be Punished with Hell"

Hosts: Greg Koukl, Amy Hall
Date: June 1, 2026
Podcast: Stand to Reason (#STRask)

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Episode Overview

This episode grapples with two primary listener questions from a Christian perspective:

1. Should someone who dies saving another be punished with hell, even if they're not Christian? (Prompted by heroism during the December Bondi Beach shooting)
2. Why does anyone need a relationship with God if a just God will simply judge us according to our deeds?

The conversation delves into theology, biblical justice, human nature, and the nature of salvation. The tone is earnest, thoughtful, and pastoral, with careful exposition and personal reflection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Should Acts of Heroism Exempt a Person from Hell? (00:12–12:20)

• Context: A listener asks how Christians should respond to the idea that someone who dies saving another's life shouldn't be punished with hell, referencing real-life events like the Bondi Beach shooting.

• Human Bravery Recognized:

  • Greg and Amy both acknowledge the nobility and courage involved in acts of self-sacrifice, emphasizing the profound good in such actions.
    • "These are magnificent manifestations of courage, bravery, and self-sacrifice." — Greg (00:56)
    • Reference to Jesus' teaching: "No greater love has no man than this, that he sacrifices his life for a friend.” (01:26)
  • Historical examples such as Oskar Schindler illustrate that extraordinary good does not erase all wrongdoing.

• Salvation Is Not Merit-Based:

  • The core argument is that good deeds—even heroic ones—do not counterbalance sin in a way that merits salvation:
    • "Sometimes we have this idea in our mind that the act of good somehow outweighs any of the evil… but it's not as if there's a balance. Good deeds outweigh the bad. And this is a constant confusion." — Greg (02:12)
  • Legal analogy: The law doesn’t offset crimes with prior good behavior; similarly, God’s perfect law demands total obedience:
    • "You are supposed to do the first and the second, keep all the laws." — Greg (04:23)
    • "The law requires that you be completely good or else you're a lawbreaker." — Greg (04:41)
    • "If you don't commit adultery, but you do commit murder, you’re a transgressor of the law." — Greg referencing James (04:49)

• Theological Basis:

  • Drawing on Anselm's Cur Deus Homo and biblical texts, Greg argues that all good we do is already owed to God; salvation is not a matter of accumulating credits.
  • "It isn’t giving our lives for someone else that earns us our salvation. It’s rather Jesus giving his life for us that earns our salvation." — Greg (06:58)

• Sobriety and Perspective:

  • Acts of heroism are morally admirable but “all have sinned” and need grace.
    • "Thinking about the fact that even someone who could do something like this, die for someone else, is still in a situation where he does not deserve heaven—well, what does that say about you?" — Amy (08:08)
  • The seemingly harsh doctrine is intended to highlight everyone’s need for grace.

Notable Quotes

• Greg Koukl (02:12):
  "Sometimes we have this idea in our mind that the act of good somehow outweighs any of the evil... but it's not as if there's a balance."
• Amy Hall (08:08):
  "Thinking about the fact that even someone who could do something like this, die for someone else, is still in a situation where he does not deserve heaven—well, what does that say about you?"
• Greg Koukl (06:58):
  "It isn't giving our lives for someone else that earns us our salvation. It's rather Jesus giving his life for us that earns our salvation."

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2. If God Is Just, Why Do I Need a Relationship with Him? (12:20–23:40)

• Listener Question: Why seek a relationship with God if you believe God will judge everyone justly by their deeds?

• Preaching in the Book of Acts:

  • Greg observes that the appeals of the apostles in Acts focus on judgment and need for mercy, not enticements to a relationship.
    • "It turned out they never offered relationship with God as something to make an appeal for people believing. It was totally different." — Greg (13:10)
    • Amy clarifies that while relationship is described for believers, the original gospel invitation focuses on justice and forgiveness.

• The Real Problem: God's Justice and Our Sin:

  • Greg points out that if God judges by deeds, that’s actually bad news since everyone’s moral record is fatally flawed.
    • “You stand before him now and either Jesus pays or you pay. You want to pay? That will take forever. Just saying. That’s the whole point about a forever hell; that will take forever.” — Greg (16:18)
  • Amy stresses God’s perfect justice:
    • "God cares more about behavior than [Dennis Prager] thinks... He is very strict and he's perfectly just. That is the whole problem." — Amy (18:04)
  • The need for salvation isn't about needing “relationship” for its own sake but about being rescued from just condemnation.

• Belief in vs. Belief that:

  • Greg distinguishes between merely assenting to truth claims about God ("belief that") versus actually relying on Jesus for salvation ("belief in" or trust).
    • "I believe that plane is going to be able to take me there... but I don't exercise faith in all that... until I get on the plane. And getting on the plane is what matters." — Greg (19:18)

• What Should the Seeker Ask?

  • Amy reframes the question for skeptics:
    • "The question you should be asking is not, 'Why isn't God just?,' or, 'How can I get justice from God?' The question you should be asking is, 'How can I get mercy from God?'" — Amy (23:27)

Notable Quotes

• Greg Koukl (16:18):
  "You stand before him now and either Jesus pays or you pay. You want to pay? That will take forever. Just saying. That's the whole point about a forever hell; that will take forever."
• Amy Hall (18:04):
  "God cares more about behavior than [Dennis Prager] thinks... He is very strict and he's perfectly just. That is the whole problem."
• Greg Koukl (19:18):
  "But I don't exercise faith in all that... until I get on the plane. And getting on the plane is what matters."

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Memorable Moments & Illustrative Analogies

• Legal Analogies:
  Breaking the law just once (even if you keep it the rest of your life) still classifies you as a lawbreaker—there’s no “credit” built up for prior good.
• Airplane Metaphor:
  Believing a plane can fly you somewhere isn’t the same as boarding it. Trust is what counts, not just mental assent.

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Important Timestamps

• 00:12 — 01:42: Introduction and framing of the "Bondi hero" question
• 03:14 — 05:06: Legal analogies to clarify why good deeds can’t undo sin
• 06:00 — 07:29: Clarifying the difference between heroic actions and salvation
• 08:08 — 09:29: Amy on the emotional heaviness and its benefit (realizing our need for grace)
• 12:20 — 15:09: New question: Do we need a relationship with God? Analysis from the Book of Acts
• 16:18 — 18:04: The bad news about just judgment; the gospel’s real point
• 19:18 — 20:50: The difference between "belief that" and "belief in" (airplane metaphor)
• 23:27: Amy reframes the seeker’s question: ask for mercy, not justice

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Final Thoughts

The episode confronts weighty questions about justice, heroism, and salvation head-on. While deeply sympathetic to the nobility of self-sacrifice, the hosts consistently point listeners back to the gravity of God’s perfect standard and the universal need for mercy rather than justice. The discussion is challenging yet pastoral, aiming to help listeners better understand both the seriousness of sin and the magnitude of grace offered through Jesus.

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Transcript

[Amy Hall]

Welcome, friends. This is the STRS podcast from Stand to Reason. And this first question, Greg, comes from Anonymous. How would you respond to someone who thinks that someone who died saving the life of another shouldn't be punished with hell to truth is seeing some of the Bondi heroes who died shielding others feels heavy. And this is referring back to for anyone who doesn't remember or missed this, back in December, there was a shooting in Australia on Bondi Beat where some Islamic terrorists shot a. It was some sort of a Jewish festival on the beach there and killed people there. So what do you think about this question, Greg?

[Greg Koukl]

Well, in some ways it's hard to respond to because you, you countenance this amazing thing. And the Bondi beach thing was a lot of video footage related to it. And so you see a lot of this carnage. You also see people tackling the gunmen and disarming them and things like that. And I wasn't aware of people who had shielded other people and then got killed themselves. But you don't want to give any of those actions the short shrift. These are magnificent manifestations of courage, bravery, and self sacrifice. No greater love is no man than this, that he sacrificed his life for a friend. And even if they weren't friends,

[Carissa]

Paul

[Greg Koukl]

says in what Romans 5. He says that even while we are yet sinners, Christ died for us. And it was meant to manifest as a manifestation of God's love for us, because it wasn't even we were friends, we were hostile. So when you have human beings that are in a similar circumstance, we have to take our hats off and to them for the thing that they did. But that doesn't accomplish what some people thinks it might accomplish. Because even though it's a great act of good, sometimes we have this idea in our mind that the act of good somehow outweighs any of the evil. Who was the guy, the businessman in the Third Reich who saved all those Jews. But he was kind of a Schindler. Yeah, Oskar Schindler. So here's a guy who did a lot of great good. He was considered a righteous Gentile and honored by the Jewish nation as such. But he was also a cad in a lot of ways and kind of came to his senses part way through this whole process of hiring these Jews to do a factory work for him. And then he figured out ways to save their lives. But his life was still filled with all of these other immoral behaviors and things. That it isn't as if there's a balance. Good deeds outweigh the bad. And this is a constant confusion. And I think all one has to do is think of any system of

[Carissa]

law and realize that you're not going to get. If you haven't broken any laws, you're not going to get a letter from the DA saying, gee, I've just checked your record here and you haven't broken any laws. You've been a law abiding citizen for

[Greg Koukl]

the last 10 years.

[Carissa]

Go out and knock off a few gas stations. You have credit in your account. The law requires that we keep it all consistently. Now, I read, I think, a summary of Anselm's writing around the turn of the millennium. His piece was Cur Dus Homo by the God Man. And in that piece he argues, I think very persuasively that all the good things we do we already owe to a good God. Just like any other law.

[Greg Koukl]

We are obliged to the government to

[Carissa]

keep the law that they make and we can keep them all.

[Greg Koukl]

And we break one law.

[Carissa]

Okay.

[Greg Koukl]

Oh, drive an 85 and a 65.

[Carissa]

You got me dead to rights. But you know, officer, before I got

[Greg Koukl]

the freeway, I stopped at 10 stop signs.

[Carissa]

I mean like full, you know, full and complete stop. None of this California rolling stop business. No problem. No, he's not going to buy that

[Greg Koukl]

because you are supposed to do the first and the second, keep all the laws.

[Carissa]

And it's so unfortunate that people have

[Greg Koukl]

somehow seized upon this element as if it was mattered. As long as your good deeds outweigh your bad, you're basically a good person. You're basically a good person. The law requires that you be completely

[Carissa]

good or else you're a lawbreaker. And this is something that James makes

[Greg Koukl]

very clear in what James? One or two. Early on in the book of James, he said, look, if you don't commit adultery, but you do commit murder, you're

[Carissa]

a transgressor of the law, not in one way, but in another way.

[Greg Koukl]

And therefore you are obliged to keep the whole law.

[Carissa]

And again, this is true not just of God's law, but any law, name

[Greg Koukl]

any particular law in any jurisdiction that you could break with impunity without expecting

[Carissa]

or at least deserving punishment for breaking the law.

[Greg Koukl]

Now, sometimes you don't expect it. You go 72 and a 65. They're not going to stop you.

[Carissa]

So you can get away with certain things.

[Greg Koukl]

They don't fuss about that. But you see, God is not like that. God's law is perfect. And at the final judgment, they open the books and there's your rhapsody. The deeds or misdeeds actually that you have performed. And every single individual who's judged on that basis ends up in the lake of fire. You read the text now. Oh, this sounds crazy. Well, that's because we have softened things for our benefit. We have viewed things very differently because, you know, we're the criminals. I think I write about this in a story of reality. You know, we have a tendency to take a view that favors us and doesn't understand God's holiness properly. So we can say on the one hand that the behaviors that we witness there in Bondi. And by the way, that's just one example. In every battle, there are bunches of examples of that kind of thing, you know, and every. There are heroism all over that we can applaud. But no one's salvation is based on anything they did good. They are at risk because of what they did bad. And everyone, their sins are legion. Some more than others, obviously. And too many of us, we look at other people say, wow, that's a really good person. But if you look in the cracks and crevices of their lives, you're going to see something entirely different. That's the way God sees it. And so it isn't giving our lives for someone else that earns us our salvation. It's rather Jesus giving his life for us that earns our salvation.

[Amy Hall]

This should feel heavy for this reason. It opens our eyes to the fact of our actual situation. Because like you said, we look around, we think we're pretty much all good people because we're comparing ourselves to the people around us. And it's heavy to think that we in that category, we're in that category just like anyone else, deserve punishment because of God's perfect justice, that is heavy. And it's very hard for us to see. It's very hard for us to comprehend because we're just used to it. But everybody knows if you are around someone who is better than you are, suddenly you see yourself in a different way. Suddenly you can see, like when you see someone who's very giving, suddenly all of your selfishness seems much more clear to you. And I think of like Isaiah, I mean, who. Isaiah wrote a book of the Bible. He was a prophet, he was great. But when he saw a vision of God, he says, woe is me, for I am ruined, for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips. So seeing God revealed shone a light on all of his darkness, and he realized what his real situation was. So thinking about the fact that even someone who could do something like this, die for someone else is still in a situation where he does not deserve heaven. Well, what does that say about you? That's very heavy on what you deserve. And that ends up showing you the grace that you need. And that ends up helping you to understand grace a little better, which isn't a bad thing. So that heaviness of knowing that even somebody who would do something this good deserves punishment for his sins.

[Carissa]

That's something for the things he did bad.

[Amy Hall]

For the things he did bad. Right. Not that that's a sin. Obviously not. And I was thinking about this actually reminds me of Romans 9 We were talking about in the last show, but we didn't mention this part. But the fact that not even is that person good enough. And the fact that that reveals the depth of the grace that we require. Romans 9 says, what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. And he did so to make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy which he prepared beforehand for glory. So the fact that some will face this justice actually reveals the grace. It helps us to understand better the grace that he's offering to us. And it helps us to appreciate that more and see it better for what it is. And I don't know that we will see it for what it is until we are actually standing before God and we understand, like Isaiah. Yeah. So we may not get that in this life, but even now I think that heaviness is appropriate because it's very sobering to realize what we are and our situation.

[Carissa]

I just want to add, too, that I am sympathetic to this concern. As human beings, we respond to these incredible examples of self sacrifice. And we don't want to take any of the nobility away from that, any of the goodness away from that. We don't want to just simply be dismissive. Well, their sin is so much greater. Well, we can understand this in human terms and be deeply moved by it, but ultimately we can't assess it in human terms, merely human terms, as if we know better. I mean, I could go ahead and give some illustrations about how it put all that perspective. I used the example of Oskar Schindler there. Even though all those good things that he did. I mean, it comes out in the movie, but you find there's a lot of other stuff, too, that wasn't so good. And if you just committed ten sins a day, which is like really low from the time you're 10 to the time you're 60. It's like 176,000 infractions of the law. You know, that's a pretty long rap sheet. And that's best case scenario. We have to assess these things, I guess, for lack of a better word, theologically based on what God says from God's perspective. And then these things kind of come more into proper focus without taking away anything of the nobility and goodness of these acts of heroism and self sacrifice.

[Amy Hall]

And it's actually an image of Christ whenever anyone dies for someone else. And that's why I think it touches us so deeply. It's a beautiful thing. All right, let's go on to a question from Carissa. How would you respond to someone that asks why they need a relationship with a God they don't need? It doesn't matter if they go to heaven or hell. If there is a just God, then we should all be judged according to our deeds.

[Carissa]

Well, yes, which is exactly the problem. This is one liability of advancing the gospel based on an appeal to relationship. This is a more contemporary way of putting it. I was troubled by this back my early days as a Christian. And that's when I went back to the Book of Acts and I wanted

[Greg Koukl]

to find out, well, as the gospel

[Carissa]

was presented in the Book of Acts, so these are the people that Jesus trained to follow after him. And we see Peter and John communicating the gospel in different circumstances, and later Paul. I wanted to see exactly what they said. What kind of appeal did they make? And it turns out the gospel is preached 13 times in the Book of Acts, either to individuals or to groups. And I really was genuinely surprised to find this. I wanted to see what was the emphasis that they were offering on relationship with God. It turned out they never offered relationship with God as something to make an appeal for people believing it was totally different. The closest thing that comes is one of the.

[Greg Koukl]

Either Paul or Peter said, times of

[Carissa]

refreshment will come, times of refreshing will come. So I mean, that's not exactly relationship, but at least there was an appeal to a subjective element. That's it.

[Amy Hall]

Now, just to be clear, Paul does talk about this to the Christians. Obviously, the Bible goes into the fact that we are in union with Christ and all of us. Yes, of course, you're talking about preaching to non believers.

[Carissa]

What was the appeal that was being made? Okay, now the problem then, when this,

[Greg Koukl]

in a sense, what's the right word, non biblical means of communicating the gospel is used, it's not unbiblical. It's not contrary to any theological principle taught, but it's not the way the apostle pursued things. And I guess the closest thing I can think of to Jesus, it wasn't like a steady piece of his message. But when in what Matthew 12, he says, come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, because I am humble of heart, et cetera, you will find rest for your souls. Okay, well, that's a subjective appeal.

[Carissa]

I get that.

[Greg Koukl]

And I think that's available to us when we get rest from the demands of the law, I think is what he's focusing on others. So the appeal's there. But when it's all about relationship with God and now, then you get these kinds of concerns, oh, well, I don't want a relationship with God. I don't need a relationship with God. I'm doing just fine all by myself, I think. And what does the end of it talk about? Justice.

[Amy Hall]

If there is a just God, then we should all be judged according to our deeds.

[Greg Koukl]

Okay, well, see, this is exactly the problem, though. We do have a just God who will judge us according to our deeds. Forget about relationships. This was the emphasis, by the way, in the New Testament, where even in Acts 10 and then what, 17 on Mars Hill. So you've got Gentiles in both cases. Acts 10 is Cornelius. He has appointed man to judge the living and the dead, and all who believe in them are not judged. You know, look at those two passages. Having provided proof through the resurrection of the dead, Paul says there in Corinth. So you've got this whole different kind of emphasis agreeing with what Karith is saying here. That's exactly the problem. God is a just God. Forget about relationship. You stand before him now and either Jesus pays or you pay. You want to pay. That will take forever. Just saying. That's the whole point about a forever hell that will take forever. So if Jesus pays perfect mercy, well, then the. The result of it is being drawn and brought into God's family, where a genuine father child relationship is available to us. Right now it's subject, sovereign, and the subjects are rebels. They're in trouble. And the text makes that really clear. And this is where sometimes we have to be careful about how we appeal

[Carissa]

to people because sometimes the appeal isn't quite biblically balanced. And I think this, what strikes me as an excessive appeal to relationship is an example of that. And then it encourages challenges like this.

[Greg Koukl]

Well, I don't want relationship with God.

[Carissa]

No, of course you don't.

[Greg Koukl]

You want to do everything on your own.

[Carissa]

You Want to be your own God, essentially. And God here kind of cramps our style.

[Amy Hall]

Well, everything we've said so far in this episode plays into this answer because we talked about not realizing our situation. Who comes to mind? The person who comes to mind here for me is Dennis Prager, who would say no, I think God cares about behavior.

[Carissa]

Yeah.

[Greg Koukl]

Not just about belief.

[Amy Hall]

Not just about belief. And my response, I wrote a piece on this one time and I said God cares more about behavior than he thinks. Because we are saying no one can get there because our behavior, he is very strict and he's perfectly just. That is the whole problem is that God cares about behavior. This is why we need to be forgiven. This is why we need someone to pay for that justice so that God can be just and show grace.

[Carissa]

I think that part of the reason that sounds compelling is because the belief that's I think characterized in that statement is belief that rather than trust in. And that's the key. And actually Dennis and I had a conversation about this very thing on a stage during high holy days. And you were there in the audience, you might remember at least 10 years ago. It was on my spot.

[Amy Hall]

15.

[Carissa]

It was a long time spiritual birthday too, as it turned out. And I did my best to try to help him understand that it isn't just holding the correct beliefs as opposed to having correct behavior, but trusting in a savior. And that trust that is pissed out. Belief, faith, however you want to characterize. Not a belief that, but a belief in the metaphor I've used. I don't know if I said it then, but this is included in the story of reality is I can on Friday I'm heading for what? Michigan, Detroit. And I believe that plane is going to be able to take me there. It has the capabilities, the pilot is adequate to the task. Delta Airlines, you know, is reliable. But I don't exercise. I believe that, but I don't exercise faith in all that that I say is true until I get on the plane. And getting on the plane is what matters. And once you get on the plane, and you're right, there's an antecedent concern about behavior. God cares more about behavior. He's so strict about it. This is why we need a savior. But once we get on the plane, the whole relationship to follow the metaphor changes with God because now we're inside the family and now God wants us to engage in good deeds which are good and profitable for men. That's Titus 3 big strong statement there about he saves us not according to our deeds, etcetera Washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Be confident. You got that? Yeah. Now engage in good deeds. And he really cares about good deeds, but the tail's not waking the dog here. And that's what people who raise questions like this in the prior one I think are confused about.

[Amy Hall]

So I think if someone says, if there is a just God, then we should all be judged according to our deeds. The direction to take it is to just bear down on that and say, you are absolutely right, God is just and he is going to judge you on your deeds. And he knows not only what you did, but why you did it. And he knows every single. He never looks away. He didn't miss anything. He saw. Everything you've ever done, he saw. Even when you were able to convince other people, like you had reasons for it, you cannot hoodwink God. He sees it. He sees through your soul. And see, and then now what?

[Carissa]

Okay, now what?

[Amy Hall]

And now what?

[Carissa]

Yeah, that's excellent, Amy.

[Greg Koukl]

Yeah, exactly right.

[Amy Hall]

And this is why you need God, because He's a perfect judge and he's not going to sweep any of that under the rug. It's just funny to me that they think that is. That is helpful. That's the way to go. I mean, I shouldn't even. I shouldn't even chuckle at that because this is a heavy thing as we've been talking. This is really heavy. And people do not understand their situation. They do not understand it. So whatever we can do to help them understand that.

[Greg Koukl]

And just a point of clarification, Amy,

[Carissa]

and I don't understand it either. I mean, we are still in our flesh and we have an understanding of it, but it isn't like, that's perfect. It's easy for us to kind of shrug off our peccadilloes of sorts. So this is the human condition, the fallen human condition.

[Greg Koukl]

We don't see God as He really is.

[Carissa]

Scripture.

[Greg Koukl]

When God chose himself even a little

[Carissa]

bit, we get the response, like Isaiah, oh, no.

[Amy Hall]

And there are times when you give into some sort of sin where you cannot justify it to yourself. And that's when you figure out how much you're trusting Christ to pay for your sin. Because there have been times when something I feel guilty about, I realize, oh my gosh, I think I've been trusting in myself more than I realized. And that's when you have to really consciously put your trust in Christ and say, he is paying for this, even this. And at those times, I think we get a glimpse of our own sinfulness and God reminds us. Hey, this isn't because of anything you're doing, but it's only because you are joined to Christ that you can stand before me at the end and you'll be judged by the book of life. Having your name in the book of life rather than by your deeds, that is what we need. And maybe you could even say, the question you should be asking is not wise and just the question or how can I get justice from God? The question you should be asking is how can I get mercy from God?

[Greg Koukl]

Exactly.

[Amy Hall]

All right, thank you, Anonymous and Carissa. We appreciate hearing from you, and we look forward to hearing your question, either through X with the hashtag Strask or our [e-mail] this is Amy hall and Greg Kokel for Stand to Reason.