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A
Foreign.
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This is Amy hall, and I am here to ask Greg Koukl the questions that you send in through X with the hashtag strask or through our website. And Greg, at the end of the last episode, or actually the last episode, we spent the whole. We spent the whole episode talking about where Scripture teaches that Jesus is God.
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By the way, that's an easy question to answer because there's so much to talk about. There's so much in the text about this issue.
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But the one thing we didn't get to in the question was the claim that Jesus also said he wasn't God when he was called a blasphemer. So this question that we're gonna start with today is along those lines, and it comes from Rob. Can you give a more detailed explanation on the verse where Jesus says, it is written that you are called gods? John 10:34, 36. I know what he means when he talks about their being called gods, but when he turns to himself and calls himself the Son of God, to me that's an entirely different category. And meaning, it seems like he's downplaying the fact that he's God by comparing himself to that group that are merely called gods. I'm missing the connection there for some reason and would like to have better insight so that when a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness brings it up, I can explain what Jesus was saying.
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A
Sure. There's a couple things going on here, and this is a passage that lends itself to maybe a couple of different interpretations because Paul, rather John Jesus, in this case, is making a reference to a passage in the Psalms, Psalm 82:6. So we're going to go there in just a moment. But I want to make an observation about something, and one of them is the notion of entailment, and that is that certain concepts entail other things. Naturally. I don't know if I have ever said. Let me back up. Oftentimes the challenge is put to Christians, especially by Muslims. And I actually address this very specific thing in Street Smarts, and I'll give you the answer. The challenge is Jesus never said I am God. Maybe not those exact words. You might be right. I don't think I have ever said I am a father. I lots of times said, I have two daughters. The idea of being a father is entailed in the idea of having two daughters. And therefore I can't be faulted or denied that I am a father because I didn't use the words I am a father. What we have to look for in the case of Jesus, if there are any things that entail the notion that he in fact is divine, that he is God. And last show together, we talked about a lot of stuff. Okay? There's also a way of arguing that is called a fortiori. That means from the lesser to the greater. Jesus will sometimes use language like if this, how much more than this. Okay? And that's a standard way of arguing. You argue from the lesser to the greater. Okay? And this is what Jesus is doing here in John 10. He is not arguing that. He doesn't say he's God in this passage. And let me just read the passage in question. It's kind of interesting. Let me just start above it. Because Jesus is talking about sheep, hearing his voice. My sheep, verse 27. My sheep hear my voice. Which let me start in verse 26. I'm sorry, but you Jews do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep hear my voice. Now, notice the parallelism between believe and hear. In other words, his sheep believe him. The Jewish leaders did not believe him. He says, I know them and they follow Me, and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me is greater than all. Now, the Father has given these sheep to Jesus. And metaphorically, where are these sheep placed?
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In his hand.
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In his hand, I. Continue. My Father, who has given. I give them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the flesh. Father's hand. Wait a minute. Jesus, that's confusing. You just said, the Father put them into your hand, and now you're saying that no one could take them out of the Father's hand. Which is it going to be? Read the next verse. I and the Father are one. So I had a clever teacher describe this as the divine sandwich. Right. I like that we're captured right here, but notice the equation. My hand, the Father's hand. I and the Father are one. Now, how did the Jews react? Oh, they picked up stones again to stone him. Now, just as a point of information, this is an unambiguous claim to be God. So whatever follows afterwards cannot be a denial of a claim to be God. And there's a real good reason. I'll get to in a moment. Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered, I showed you many good works from the Father for Which of them are you stoning him now? This is tongue in cheek. He's poking fun at them. Oh, what nice thing that I do that you're mad about? And they said, for a good work we don't stone you, but for blasphemy and because you being a man, make yourself out to be God. Okay, what we're doing here is we're just seeing exactly how they understood his statements, which it's not hard to see that this is the claim now, the rejoinder. Jesus said to them, is it not been written in your law? I said, you are gods. And now he's quoting Psalm 82. If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken, do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? You are blaspheming because I said I am the Son of God and if I do not do the works of my Father, that's the evidences that he's true. Don't believe me. But if I do them, though you do not believe me, believe the works, let that testify to me so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father. That's co penetration. And we see that concept developed a little later in John and John 17 in the high priest priestly prayer. So none of this is backing away from his claim, but he does offer this odd reference to Psalm 82. We'll get to that in a moment. I think you and I might have different views on what that means. But the point is he's saying, look it, you got a psalm that calls someone, maybe leaders, maybe some rulers of some sort, gods, I say, you are God's. If you're okay with that, why are you upset when I, who am doing all of these things in the power of the Holy Spirit to show that my claims are true, why are you mad at me? He's arguing a forteriori from the lesser to the greater. If you accept that, how much more should you be accepting me? So he is not denying that he's got here at all. He's deflecting the challenge with this particular kind of argument. And then what's interesting, I know the atheist Alex o' Connor has brought this passage up and in this passage he's saying, well, see, Jesus obviously is denying that he's God, because here's a perfect place for him to say, you got it right, you got it right. But he doesn't say that. And so implicitly, and this is, I think the spirit of the question. Implicitly, he's denying that. There are so many things wrong with this analysis by Alex. But here's the most obvious, and I'll give you the second most obvious. Then maybe we look at Psalm 82. The most obvious is these are people that are trying to kill Jesus. If he was denying that he was God, and his life, at least at the moment looks like it's on the line, then he is going to say, I am not God. Put down the stones. You're misunderstanding me. He doesn't say that.
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Which is what people do throughout the Bible. When people think that they're saying they're God, they'll say, I am not God.
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Look at Paul. There's two places in the book of Acts, one in Galatia and the other one towards the end when he's in.
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And the angel in Revelation.
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Oh, yeah, there's another one. And Paul is, you know, the snake bites him and they think they're falling down. And then in Galatians, he says, stop doing that. But no, Jesus doesn't say that here. So this is not the perfect place for him to deny he's God if he really wasn't. I'm sorry. The perfect place to affirm that he's God if he really was. Which is what Alex o' Connor says. But it is the perfect place for him to explicitly deny he's God if he's not, because his life is on the line.
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That's a great point.
- [10:27]
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He doesn't do that. Okay, but not only that, where do we find this passage? We find it in the Book of John. Now, if John, who is writing all of this, knew that as he's recording, he is recording Jesus denying to be God, why does John start his entire account with, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things came into being through him, and apart from him, nothing came into being.
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And we went through that whole thing in the last episode, if anyone missed
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that, he starts out with saying, jesus is the uncreated Creator. So the author. If anybody understands what's going on here, it's John. But John has already made it clear from the outset, right out of the gates, first thing he says, this is God come down. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. So whatever we do with this passage, we can't do with this passage. We can't draw conclusions from the passage that fly in the face of John's complete testimony, consistent testimony throughout the text about Jesus, especially the way he starts The Gospel of John. I mean, this fails in so many ways. But we do have this question about Psalm 82. So I'm going to read it. It's a short psalm and I won't read it all. But there's a problem God is complaining about. Wait, I'm not on the right page. That's the wrong Psalm. Well, 82, yeah. God is taking his stand in his own congregation. He judges in the midst of the rulers. Now, initially, it sounds like human rulers. Okay, we'll just go with that.
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B
This is what he's quoting, right? In Psalms.
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Yeah, this is the reference. Jesus is citing the Psalms. So we're reading the whole thing. Never read a Bible verse. Right. How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Vindicate the weak and fatherless, do justice to the afflicted and destitute? Because rescue the weak and needy, deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. Now that seems like straightforward kind of directions to leadership of Israel. All right, but then comes kind of a weird part, the second half of the psalm. They do not know nor do they understand. They walk about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken. Okay, here's a verse. I said you are gods. I think the word in Hebrew is Elohim. There you are Elohim, and all of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless, you will die like men and fall like any one of the princes. So there's at least argue. Then the final verse. Arise, O God, judge the earth, because these people aren't doing the right thing or these leaders, for it is you who possess all the nations. Now, Mike Heiser has made this point. What's the name of his book? The Unseen Realm.
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Yes.
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Okay. And he makes a case that there are rulers in the heavenly realm, Elohim, gods that are not the God, but they are lesser spiritual beings that have authorities, authority in the world. And he makes his argument. And so his case here would be that this is making reference to those lesser spiritual beings, those Elohim that are going to die like men. They aren't men, but they're going to die like men. They're going to fall like the princes, because they are acting and executing their own responsibilities that God has given them as Elohim, the council of the gods. They're doing it unjustly and they're going to judge them. So on this take, Jesus is making reference to this passage where there are those who are called gods. Elohim. It's right here in the text. And then for Teori, from the lesser to the greater. If they can be called gods, I can be called God too. All right. Especially since how much we're qualified to be the God and for the reasons that he gives there. Now, there is an alternate understanding here as to human rulers, and I don't know, this sounds like it might be your view, right, of the Psalm 82.
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Yeah. As of now, I'm still more convinced that he's talking about human rulers. But the point I want to make doesn't even matter which you're referring to, because here's the important thing to note here. Listen to what he says in verses 35 and 36. If he called them gods, to whom the Word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken. So if he called those gods, whether you're talking about humans or not, if you're talking about human rulers, they received the law of God. They were ruling with the law of God, and they're called gods because they're ruling in God's place. Okay, so if they're called gods, to whom the Word of God came, do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? You are blaspheming because I said I am the Son of God. In other words, if you're calling them gods, and that's fine, to whom the Word of God came. But this is the key thing. He's saying the Father sanctified and sent him into the world. So this goes back to our last episode. We're talking about divinity here. There's no human being, no one. We mentioned the verse where no one. Let's see, no one ascended into heaven except he who descended one person. So what he's doing here and in the question, Rob, you say, seems like he's downplaying the fact that he's God by comparing himself to a group that are merely called gods. But in fact, he's not downplaying himself at all. He's actually saying he is greater than they are. He's in a different category. That is why, if you're okay with the first, you ought to be okay with the second, because he deserves it much more. So they merely received the Word of God, but he is. Let's see, he's the one who was sent into the world. So he is the Word that came into the world. They merely received the Word. So he's actually, actually making a giant contrast here between whoever he's talking about in Psalm 82 and himself. And he's saying they're much less than I Am. So if you are calling them gods, then you shouldn't be angry at me because I actually came from God unlike them.
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And this took a long time to explain. But if you have this idea of from the lesser to the greater. However, as Amy pointed out, however, you understand what's going on in Psalm 82. And some might read Mike Heiser's book, it was very popular. He's gone. He's gone to be with the Lord a few years ago. But the unseen realm. The unseen realm. And there's others that he's written as well that are worth reading. However, you understand Psalm 82, the point here is Jesus is saying if they can be legitimately called gods who received the Word and are functioning this way, the true word coming down out of heaven can certainly be referred to as God. So much greater. Yeah. So that's the argument.
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Yeah. And remember you pointed this out, Greg, that this is John who wrote John 1:1, and he's using that language of the word coming. And so that makes sense in this context.
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Yeah. It's interesting how it ends. And this is a point that I think is very supportive of doing apologetics. He if I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe me. But if I do them, though, you don't believe me. In other words, you do not believe in my words what I see about myself. Believe the works so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me. I and the Father, another divine reference because of the interpenetration of the two. Therefore they were. Watch this next verse. Therefore they were seeking again to seize him, and he eluded their grasp and he went away beyond the Jordan. Now, why did he go beyond the Jordan? Because that's where the Gentiles. He's getting on. Well, not all of them, but he's getting out of town. Things are getting too hot. He goes beyond the Jordan where John was baptizing. So anyway, I just. This underscores two points, I think, Amy, in terms of reading your Bible accurately. One is never read a Bible verse. When you follow the flow of thought here. Instead of kind of isolating a passage and saying, see, Jesus is claiming he's not God, which he never does here, obviously. In fact, when you read the whole thing, he doubles down in a number of different ways. Never read a Bible verse. But the other thing is interpreting the clear and light of the clear. If you have uncertainty about some of these passages, and this came up last show when we talked about similar things, you have to go back to the passages that make clear what the text says about Jesus. Indeed, this one. And you made reference again to this. The apostle John himself, who's writing this passage, is not mystified what he's talking about. And this is the very person who says in the very beginning, introducing the whole thing in the prologue, this guy's God.
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And not only that, but this guy is the word, which is what he says. If you compare if it's okay to say it to those whom the word came, then certainly it's okay to say it to the word who came.
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Yes. That's great. This is so good. I love working together with you because I get these. I never thought of that. And so you're just offering a more robust understanding of this passage for me and I think for the listeners too, as well.
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Well, thank you, Greg, and thank you, Rob. That's all we have time for, but we will continue talking about Jesus in the next episode as we go on to a new question. So thank you so much. Please send us your questions on X with the hashtag strask. This is Amy hall and Greg Koukl for Stand to.