1508 - How and Why People Cheat on People They Love w/Jenn Pinkerton

Summary

---

Strictly Anonymous Confessions

Episode 1508 – How and Why People Cheat on People They Love

Host: Kathy Kay
Guest: Jen Pinkerton (Psychotherapist & Connection Coach)
Date: July 4, 2026

---

Episode Overview

Kathy Kay welcomes psychotherapist and connection coach Jen Pinkerton for a candid, insightful discussion about the complexities of infidelity: “How and Why People Cheat on People They Love.” This episode explores the paradox of cheating within loving relationships, the root causes of betrayal, and what healing and transformation look like for couples on the other side. Through professional and personal anecdotes, Jen challenges black-and-white thinking, emphasizing that both love and betrayal can coexist. The conversation also unpacks the emotional landscape for both partners and offers actionable advice for anyone impacted by infidelity.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Myth: Cheating Equals Lack of Love

• Jen Pinkerton: “In clinical experience, we actually know that many people who cheat are still deeply in love with the person they're betraying. The problem isn't this lack of love. It's usually a lack of emotional health, self-awareness, and having relational skills, because love by itself doesn't protect the relationship.” (09:15)
• Kathy: Affirms the need to avoid moral absolutism: "I don't think you can put every single cheater in the same category...the cheaters come in all different shapes and sizes, and they do it for all different reasons." (08:09)

2. Root Causes of Infidelity

• Cheating rarely stems solely from relationship problems; more often, it reflects unresolved issues in the cheater.
  • Jen: “There's something that they were lacking inside, whether it's emotional maturity, whether it's safety, whether it's vulnerability, whether it was ego, addiction, trauma...” (11:49)
• Quote: “Affair isn't the wound, it's the unhealthy attempt to soothe the wound.” (19:53)
• Emotional neglect, unmet needs (validation, reassurance), attachment wounds, past trauma, shame, and ego are all explored as driving factors.

3. Healing After Betrayal: Building a New Relationship

• Healing requires both partners to “decide right now that your old relationship is dead. You're going to decide to build a new one that is going to look and feel very different than what you had before.” (11:48)
• Stages of recovery mirror grief (denial, anger, bargaining, acceptance).
• Both individual and joint work—with a focus on the “betrayer” understanding the underlying why.
• Jen: “Once they've both been raised up...then it's coming back together in a way to say, how can we have true apology, forgiveness...now create, with brand new tools, an entirely different relationship where you both feel totally seen and heard?” (27:17)

4. Individual Reflection and Accountability

• Kathy: Offers a personal account of cheating stemming from insecurity and her journey of growth—highlighting that “once a cheater, always a cheater” is an oversimplification. (12:56)
• Importance of self-inventory: “Who's ever sitting across from you...they're vibrating at the same energy you are.” (18:21)

5. The Role of Childhood & Attachment Patterns

• Dysfunctional relationship patterns often reflect unresolved early attachment wounds.
• “Marriage doesn't heal attachment wounds. It exposes them.” (19:17)
• People's partnering patterns and chemistry frequently stem from familiar childhood dynamics, not necessarily what’s healthy. (13:29)

6. Societal Stigma, Shame & the Pressure to Leave

• Many feel immediate pressure to leave upon discovering infidelity, but “hasn't your marriage or your relationship...been worth the exploration to see what you both learn?” (25:38)
• Jen challenges “deal breaker” thinking and urges couples to “hit pause and see what could happen.”
• Quote: "We will always repeat what we don't heal." (36:36)

7. Therapy Process & Timeline

• Therapy involves joint sessions, individual exploration, and a transparent timeline—healing takes years, though relief and progress can be felt quickly. (29:39)
• Therapy provides a “safety net” during emotionally turbulent times: “When you know every week you have this place to talk...it's much easier to kind of hold on to things and not flip out.” (30:24)

8. Cheating Is Not Gender Specific

• Kathy and Jen note both men and women cheat; stereotypes around gender patterns in infidelity can be misleading. (27:47)

9. Sexual Mismatch & Communication

• Sexual incompatibility is a vulnerability, not a cause for cheating; the silence and lack of communication about sexual needs is more damaging than mismatch itself.
  • Jen: “Sexual mismatch never destroys a relationship. It's the silence about the sexual mismatch that'll destroy it.” (46:25)
  • Couples need the courage to discuss desire, fantasy, rejection, and needs openly—healthy relationships revisit these conversations regularly as preferences and bodies evolve. (45:52)
  • Quote: “You can't yuck somebody else's yum.” (44:49)

10. Action Steps for Couples Facing Infidelity or Sexual Disconnect

• Build emotional safety through vulnerability and honest sharing of past wounds.
• Prioritize curiosity over ego or blame; strive to see and understand each other's inner experiences.
• Invest in therapy early—ideally together, but even one partner can start the process.
• For the “reluctant spouse,” seek solo help to gain tools and approach the conversation productively. (51:08)

---

Notable Quotes & Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• “Love by itself doesn't protect the relationship. The only thing that's going to protect...is having emotional safety and vulnerability.”
  – Jen Pinkerton (09:15)
• “Affair isn't the wound, it's the unhealthy attempt to soothe the wound.”
  – Jen Pinkerton (19:53)
• “Marriage doesn't heal attachment wounds. It exposes them.”
  – Jen Pinkerton (19:17)
• “If you leave them, you have to go build a brand new relationship with someone else probably eventually. So why not give this a little time to see what happens?”
  – Jen Pinkerton (35:15)
• “We will always repeat what we don't heal.”
  – Jen Pinkerton (36:36)
• “Sexual mismatch never destroys a relationship. It's the silence about the sexual mismatch that'll destroy it.”
  – Jen Pinkerton (46:25)
• “You can't yuck somebody else's yum.”
  – Jen Pinkerton (44:49)

---

Important Timestamps

• 07:27 – Jen introduced; episode theme set: Can you love someone and still cheat?
• 08:53 – Jen debunks the myth that cheating means a lack of love.
• 11:48–12:30 – How healing after betrayal means building a new relationship.
• 13:29–15:30 – Chemistry, attraction, and the role of childhood wounds.
• 19:17–19:57 – Marriage as an exposer of, not cure for, attachment wounds.
• 22:11–24:27 – Why “variety” is rarely the real reason for cheating; getting to the root causes.
• 25:38–27:47 – Deal breakers, shame, and why society pressures us to leave after cheating.
• 29:39–30:24 – Therapy process and how quickly couples can start feeling better.
• 37:24–38:52 – Emotional safety versus just communication; creating true intimacy.
• 40:12–46:25 – Sexual mismatch, rejection, and the importance of honest dialogue.
• 51:08–54:43 – What to do when your partner refuses therapy or communication.
• 56:49–58:18 – Likelihood of couples staying together after infidelity with therapy.
• 58:52–63:23 – Jen’s approach to connection coaching, 30-day relationship intensives.

---

Advice & Takeaways

• Growth is for everyone: “Everyone can grow and learn. I love it when both [partners] do [the work].” (53:45)
• Healing is possible but not guaranteed: When couples address infidelity head-on, 60-75% (or higher) can stay together and thrive; avoidance or denial almost always leads to failure. (56:49)
• Therapy is a gift, not a punishment: Both partners must approach with interest and commitment; discomfort is temporary, transformation is possible. (49:36)
• Start where you are: Even if only one partner is willing, solo work can catalyze positive change—or clarify your next step.

---

Where to Find Jen Pinkerton

• Website: jenpinkerton.com
• Instagram: @jennbpinkerton
• YouTube: Search "Jen Pinkerton" for long-form content and her podcast.

---

This episode offers hope, nuance, and practical steps for anyone who’s ever wondered how betrayal can coexist with love—and what it really takes for couples to rebuild trust and intimacy on the other side.

Transcript

[Jen Pinkerton]

This episode is brought to you by Google Health. Stop chasing someone else's definition of health. What matters is what's healthy for you. Google Health offers a new kind of coach built with Gemini for effortless tracking, sleep insights and holistic coaching tailored to you. Visit googlestore.com to learn more and start a new relationship with your health. Requires Google Account, Google Health App, Internet and Google Health Premium subscription. Features subject to change. Availability and results vary. Not intended for medical purposes or works independently of Gemini apps. Check responses for accuracy.

[Kathy]

Did you know with the Sam's Club app, you're technically in the club no matter where you are. Like, this is a club. This is also a club. And this is sh. A club. My bad.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Come join us.

[Kathy]

Sam's Club. What's up, baby? It's Bretzky. And I'm here to tell you that spinquest.com is giving out free sweeps coins. All you gotta do is is purchase a $10 coin pack. And guess what? They're going to give you the coins from a $30 coin pack that lets you play all your favorite games like Blackjack, Wanted, Dead or Wild. And we're talking real cash prizes, baby. Spinquest.com Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. American express encompras ele hibles gana tres puntos porcadola.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Business credit. Welcome to the Strictly Anonymous Podcast. Strictly Anonymous Podcast Conversations with online strangers. We place ads online.

[Kathy]

The Craigslist is definitely like gift that keeps on giving. Real people respond.

[Jen Pinkerton]

You go to Singapore or Thailand, you can't not do it. The temptation is just too much. Real problem.

[Kathy]

Does your friend know that you're banging her?

[Jen Pinkerton]

No, no, he has no idea. And anything goes.

[Kathy]

Motto of the show. Let your freak flag fly. Probably the only good advice I'll ever give you is to rehide your whips and shame. Here is your host, Kathy. Hey, welcome to the Strictly Anonymous podcast with Kathy. If you want to follow the Strictly Anonymous podcast on Instagram or Twitter, follow me at Strict Anonymous if you want be on the show. It's called Strict Strictly Anonymous because they change everyone's voices and names. Okay? So if you have an interesting, secret, naughty life that you want to talk about while remaining anonymous or not anonymous, if you're out and proud, you could email me at strictly anonymous podcast gmail.com or go to my website, strictly anonymous podcast.com and click on be on the show. Now listen, I'm also looking for people that have any kind of like, regular interesting stories or any kind of health journey stories like you lost a lot of weight or you started working out and you completely transformed yourself or anything to do with health. If you have an interesting story, I do a Sexual Health Saturday series and I'm looking for regular people to call in and tell their health stories, if that makes sense on my show. You know, like I said, I mean email strictly anonymous podcastmail.com now listen, if you have a naughty confession you want to leave on my Confessions line, you could do that 24. 7. The number is 347-420-3579. That's 347-420-3579. Call from a quiet place. I can't use ones when people call where they're driving. Some of those confessions make it onto a Confessions episode. The Just go on to My Patreon. Now my Patreon is super fun and it's very inexpensive if you ask me. It's only $7 a month and you get every single episode. I do seven episodes a week. You get every single one of them early before anyone gets them. As well as intro and ad free. You also get all the confessions and you also get Q&As that I do like every other month where I answer a lot of questions as well as you get anonymous picks of probably every single girl that has called into my show. Every single female guest. I got pictures of them over on my Patreon. Like I said, It's $7 a month. The link to Patreon is in the description. If you do sign up for my Patreon or buy my book, I wrote a book. It's called Strictly Anonymous Confession Secret Sex Lives of Total Strangers. It's all stories from my show told in the third person. They're super fun. And the audiobook is coming out in August. So if you buy my book, either in paperb or ebook or audiobook version, the links are all in the description. I will also give you access to my Private Discord. Like I said, if you join my Patreon or if you call into my show or if you buy my book, I will give complimentary access to my private Discord. My Private Discord is not a paid site. It is free, but it is private and you can only get in if I send you the link. I promise you you will not be disappointed. My Discord is full of great effing people. Okay, so if you buy my book, send me a screenshot of your purchase and I will send you the link to my Discord. Last thing I'M going to tell you about is if you want to sign up for SDC.com I do have a free trial for my listeners. SDC is like the world's largest online dating website. And it's not just a place where you could hook up with people. You could learn all about the lifestyle. You could find out about all the lifestyle events and meetups and all kinds of things going on in your neighborhood, as well as if you're going to travel and you want to have a little fun, you're going to find it all on SDC.com Like I said, you get a free trial if you use my code, 37712 or just go to the description and click on the link. That's 37712 or just go to the description and click on the link. Okay. Today I have on Jen Pinkerton such an interesting topic. She is here to talk about how and why people can cheat on people even when they are in love. Okay. She's here to say that both things can exist. Somebody could be totally in love with someone and cheat on them at the same. We get deep into all of that. Jen is a. A psychotherapist. She's a connection coach. She talks about how she helps couples in therapy deal with an affair or betrayal. She talks about the reasons why people cheat. She talks about how she works with couples to get them on the other side of cheating. She talks about how long, you know, the therapy typically takes. She talks about, you know, why people cheat and think all of the reasons are really super interesting. She talks about how she helps couples when they come to her. Not just the person who was cheated on, but more so the person that cheated. You know, she talks a lot about how, you know, that person sort of getting to the root of why they cheated is, like, super important. And like I said, she's here to tell you why a lot of people wind up cheating, even on people they are in love with. This episode is packed with great information. She's available. Okay. If you want to hire her a connection coach, she's also a psychotherapist. Psychotherapist. She's like, super great. I'm going to put the link to her website in the description. But you're going to learn so much on this episode. So I'm going to get right to it and be right back on with Jen Pinkerton.

[Jen Pinkerton]

This is the Strictly Anonymous podcast. Strictly Anonymous podcast.

[Kathy]

Oh, hi, Jen Pinkerton. I don't know why I want to call you by your first and last name, but that's because you are an expert. Welcome to the Strictly Anonymous podcast. How are you today?

[Jen Pinkerton]

I'm great. How are you doing?

[Kathy]

Good. I'm excited to have you on. You are a psychotherapist and a relationship expert. Is that what you said? Did I get it right?

[Jen Pinkerton]

I'm a connection expert on relationships. So you're not wrong.

[Kathy]

Yeah, we're talking about relationships. That's why I have it in my head, because you are here to talk about why people cheat even when they're in love. And I love this topic because, you know, listen, I am a podcaster that will have cheating episodes on my show. Now, I have some podcaster friends that would never have, like, cheating people on their show, you know, for one reason or other. But the reason why I do, and I allow it, is because I really believe that people could learn from those episodes. It's not like nobody cheats, like tons of people do. It's a very unfortunate thing that happens all the time. And I feel like people could learn so much from those episodes. So I have them on all the time. Plus, I don't think, like, you could put every single cheater in the same category. There's so many different variety, right? Like, on one end, you have the totally monogamous person. On other end, you have the total philander. And then you have a lot of people somewhere in the middle, right? Like, the cheaters come in all different shapes and sizes, and they do it for all different reasons. And I love that you're here to say that, like, just because maybe someone cheats, it doesn't mean that they're not in love, right?

[Jen Pinkerton]

Absolutely. And there are, you know, fundamental reasons why we see people cheat and why people betray their partners. And it's often this whole topic becomes very emotionally charged, obviously, and very misunderstood. And, you know, there's these ideas, this misconception about infidelity in general, that if someone cheats, then they don't love their partner.

[Kathy]

Right?

[Jen Pinkerton]

And in clinical experience, we actually know that many people who cheat are still deeply in love with the person they're betraying. And the problem isn't this lack of love. It's usually a lack of emotional health, self awareness, and having relational skills, because love by itself doesn't protect the relationship. The only thing that's going to protect your relationship, or a fair proof, if you want to call it your relationship, is having emotional safety and vulnerability, right? And that's two things that sometimes can be really hard to achieve.

[Kathy]

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, that's like, very loaded. It Sounds easier said than done, right?

[Jen Pinkerton]

For sure. Because love and betrayal can exist at the same time. I mean, we know that two things can be true at the same time in life.

[Kathy]

Right? No, I don't think. No, no. But the sad thing is. Jen, I'm sorry to interrupt, but, like, the sad thing is I don't think people understand that. People try to, like, make everything so black and white, but it's really not. And I do believe that a lot of times those two things can exist, but a lot of times people cannot believe that they do, you know, and that's why I think this is such a great topic.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Well, because a lot of people sit in ego. It's. Sometimes there's a lot of ego thoughts and feelings, which. Which makes sense. You're feeling so bruised, and we feel a lot of personalization around infidelity that they didn't want me, they didn't choose me, they weren't faithful to me. And oftentimes it has very little to do with their partner and so much to do with their own emotional health.

[Kathy]

Right. And I think that that's hard for someone to understand. And then there's also that huge part which is like the betrayal. Right. And just the lying and all that kind of stuff, which I think is another separate thing.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Sometimes, yes, it can be. And sometimes you can have this entire ptsd, you know, problem to get past just from the lying, just from the consistent complex trauma of being lied to again and again. But I urge all people clinically that when you're suffering from betrayal, you've got to get help. Because there's true structure to understanding the why, to. Not that the why excuses it. It doesn't erase the betrayal. But understanding it and understanding that mechanism allows for a path to healing. It allows for some couples to get through this and have an entirely different relationship. I tell my clients that if you're coming to get help from infidelity, you need to decide right now that your old relationship is dead. Right.

[Kathy]

I like that.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Now, yeah. You're going to decide to build a new one that is going to look and feel very different than what you had before. Because without a doubt, if there was betrayal, there is something missing. I'm not saying something's missing in the relationship, but something was definitely missing in the person who betrayed. There's something that they were lacking inside, whether it's emotional maturity, whether it's safety, whether it's vulnerability, whether it was ego, addiction, trauma. There's something in there that caused them to actually. To actually move forward with that rather than address whatever they were feeling.

[Kathy]

No, totally. That's why, like, you know, people sometimes think that, you know, once a cheater, always a cheater is a true story. And I'm like, it's definitely not the case. I have cheated in my life, and I'm totally not a cheater. And when I cheated, I, like, I've been sober, like, over 20 years, and when I cheated, I always cheated out of insecurity. You know what I mean? It was like, it was something that I was lacking for sure. Like, once I got clean and sober and I worked on myself and everything, I would never do that. It was something that wasn't, like, who I was, you know, But I was doing it because, like I said, out of insecurity. If I was with a guy that was treating me like instead of leaving, you know, I cheated on him. And that was like my way of, like, sort of helping myself, you know, be okay with staying or so whatever it was. You know what I mean? It's not conscious, right? But I could look back and say that's where it was coming from. And like you said, there's so many different reasons why people do it. Sometimes it is something lacking in the relationship, though. For sure.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Sometimes. But oftentimes it really starts with that betrayer, the person that did that.

[Kathy]

Right.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Also, I like to teach this idea that chemistry isn't about compatibility. Oftentimes chemistry that we have with someone is familiarity. We repeat what we don't heal. Our nervous system is drawn towards what feels familiar, not necessarily what is healthy. So if you grew up in an environment where chaos was familiar, where emotional distance was familiar, where emotional inconsistency was familiar, you may mistake activation for attraction.

[Kathy]

Oh, my God. I know. But could I ask you, though? Because me and my friend were just joking about this yesterday because he's like, really on the hunt for a chick and he's obviously always attracted to a girl that's going to give him his story, right? And when, when, when you find that person, it is like, oh, my God, the best chemistry ever, right? If you have, if you're, if you do have issues like that. So, like, what. What are you supposed to do? Go for the person that you have no chemistry for? You know, like, it's like a weird, weird kind of a place to be. Or, like, will it. And if the person does do that, will that chemistry grow in a healthy relationship eventually? Like, how do you break that pattern of being.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Well, if your friend is listening and your friend's probably not going to, like, My answer?

[Kathy]

Yes, I know. Tell me what the answer is.

[Jen Pinkerton]

If. If your friend is continually only attracted to that, then that means that your friend needs to do some emotional work.

[Kathy]

Yeah.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Because if the attraction is only about that, that means that either maybe they didn't have enough emotional attunement to seek that. You know, we. We change what we're attracted to based on the level of our own emotional health. When somebody is really emotionally healthy and they have learned how to. That they. They've healed the things that have hurt them. They've learned how to have healthy boundaries. They understand what emotional maturity and self awareness looks like. They're no longer attracted to the train wrecks they might have been attracted to, you know, 20 years ago. I can speak from. From experience, even before being a therapist. I mean, it all changes. The more work we do on ourselves, then we. We attract different types of people.

[Kathy]

Okay? Anyone who listens to my show knows that I love data, okay? I like to know everything, actually. And because I'm very into health and fitness and I'm on hormones, I love health data. And that's why I'm so excited to tell you about rhythm. Rhythm is the world's easiest at home blood test, and it's the most painless, okay? Because there are no needles. I swear to you, you put that device on and you click it, you feel absolutely nothing. Now, I was a little afraid at first. I actually had my son push it for me because I was, like, nervous, but trust me, I felt nothing. And when you're done, they make it super easy. You set up a FedEx pickup and you get your results in just a few days. The first time I submitted my blood work, my B12 came back, like, off the charts. I was like, oh, my God, it was almost like 2000. And I was a little freaked out, but I knew I was going to test again, so I stopped my beat supplements. And when I did the test the next month, my B12 was totally normal. What I love about rhythm also is they check so many different levels. Your hormone levels, your vitamin D level, your. Your ferritin level, your cholesterol level, as well as so many other levels that are super important. And what I love is that I could get all of the information without ever having to leave my house and with no one jabbing a needle in my arm. Okay? This is the perfect test for anyone that's afraid of needles, anyone that's doing hormone replacement or anyone that wants to track their health. You could do it monthly. You could set it up every three Months, and you could cancel it any time. Rhythm is only 79amonth, which is a fraction of the cost of regular lab testing. So what are you waiting for? Go check out Rhythm right now. Rhythm is offering my listeners 15 off your first month and free shipping at Rhythm Health slash Strictly Anon. That's rhythm with 1 h, r, y t, H M. Health slash strictly anon for 15 off your first month and free shipping. Stop guessing, start testing. Rhythm Health slash strictly non. Or just go to the description and click on the link.

[Jen Pinkerton]

The grill is shot. The chairs are held together by optimism. And what happened to the rug? Sounds like your outdoor setup is not ready for patio season. Fix it all with Wayfair. Shop Wayfair for grills, rugs, furniture and more. With 20 million 5 star reviews, Room of choice delivery, and expert setup on qualifying orders, it's never been easier to do more for less. Get 10% off your first eligible purchase. Hurry to Wayfair.com or download the app now.

[Kathy]

Wayfair. Every style, every home. Oh, 100, you know, yeah, of course, everyone's. It's a mirror reflection. And that's why, you know, I mean, I could always look back at my past relationships. I always had bad ones with terrible guys. But, you know, at the end of the day, once I got over being mad at them, I kind of had to look at myself and be like, but why was I staying with that person? You have to take. You have to look at yourself. At the end of the day, no one's like a total victim. And I do believe that, you know, who's ever sitting across from you, for better or for worse, they're like, vibrating at the same energy you are. Maybe you're not the same. You don't have the same exact issues, but you're on the same level. Like I said, for better or for worse. Sorry, you know, and as I bettered myself, I sat across from better guys, you know, but I had to do the work, work first.

[Jen Pinkerton]

That's exactly right. And. And people sometimes think that the attachment wounds they had growing up, things that hurt them in their life prior to, they're going to disappear when you get married. But marriage doesn't. It doesn't heal attachment wounds. It exposes them.

[Kathy]

Right?

[Jen Pinkerton]

Because someone with, with abandonment wounds, maybe they're going to be desperate for reassurance. And if they don't get that in their relationship, guess what? They're going to seek it elsewhere. Someone with the rejection room maybe want constant validation, they're going to find that elsewhere. Someone with shame that they have not been able to manage or maybe they numb in their life for it. They're going to hide and seek to further that shame rather than repair and grow from it. You know, if somebody has emotional deprivation, they're going to be vulnerable to outside attention. And those are things that have nothing to do with the partner. With. That's their own stuff they're bringing into that marriage and into that relationship. So affair isn't the wound, it's the unhealthy attempt to soothe the witch.

[Kathy]

It. Yeah, no, totally. I mean, and so, you know, and I do believe, you know, the end of the story can be after the. After they do work through it, that a lot of times couples do wind up having a much better relationship at the end of the day. I'm kind of like a realist. So to me, like when comes up and even if it's like really terrible, I'm always kind of like, look at it like, well, like finally you're living in the truth. Right. And like from there then maybe you could repair and you'll be better. Because it's not like, because before like that truth came out that things were that great, they were just hidden a lot of the times. You know what I mean?

[Jen Pinkerton]

And exactly.

[Kathy]

That's just like you're a disaster waiting to happen.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Exactly. And they're finally maybe willing when, when everything has fallen apart, you have nothing to lose by truly saying, I, I've been so lonely in this marriage.

[Kathy]

Right.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Or I don't feel seen in this marriage or I struggle with my own self worth or, you know, I, I love the feeling I get from attention. Things they would never say to their partner.

[Kathy]

Yeah.

[Jen Pinkerton]

You know, or maybe I don't feel that I can be truly vulnerable with you because I feel like you judge me. Who knows? Or maybe it's sexual mismatch. I've never felt safe to tell you my fantasies because I know you wouldn't approve.

[Kathy]

Yeah.

[Jen Pinkerton]

You know, there's, there's things that finally get said that never would have been said before.

[Kathy]

Yeah, no, totally. I have those stories on my show all the time. So now are you typically talking to both. Both people in the, in the, you know, relationship? Like the person who cheated and the cheater?

[Jen Pinkerton]

Yes. Usually it's, it's. Wait, I'm usually talking to the couple.

[Kathy]

Right, right.

[Jen Pinkerton]

The person. Yes. Together.

[Kathy]

Yeah. And so how do you, like, I mean, you know, obviously they're both dealing with different things. I mean, it's. At some point you do like, I mean, is a lot of the Times like, does the cheater even, sometimes even know why they're cheating? Or you have to sort of get them to that place. Like. Because I feel like sometimes I get a lot of guys who call in and they'll be like, oh, I cheat because like, I just need variety. But after I talk to them for an hour and I'm like, I'm a very curious person. I. I like to dig deep and pull back the layers. Like, I find out that they're not cheating for variety. They're cheating for a whole different other reason. There's like, there. You know what I mean? That maybe they weren't kind of in touch with. So, like, is that something that you typically have to deal with with the person that's cheating, like, to get to the reason why?

[Jen Pinkerton]

Sure. Because it's a lot easier and safer to just say, oh, yeah, I want variety versus instead of saying, you know what? I realized that I've got some really deep wounds that I've never dealt with.

[Kathy]

Yeah. You know, or I don't feel loved at home and I wasn't getting the attention. You know, I think it's hard for a guy to feel very vulnerable or be in touch with vulnerable emotions. Even as a girl, I've been that kind of person at when I was younger, you know what I mean? So it's like, you don't want to cop to that kind of stuff, so you hide it with all this other kind of nonsense. And then I think it's also, it must be challenging for the person that got cheated on to make them understand that it's not personal.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Exactly. Because it's very rarely ever personal. That's not what normally happens. I feel like it's so very often this sense of. Many times it's the roommates. Many times we are in the business of marriage. We pay our bills, we raise our children, we coordinate schedules. But there's no curiosity, there's no sharing of your deepest feelings. There's no risk of being vulnerable. And so it's like this relationship can die from emotional neglect, although no one did anything wrong per se. And that, that, that is a relationship that is vulnerable for outside validation or external, especially if there's loneliness in the marriage. And again, it's not about whose fault. And it's not that the person who didn't cheat that they're to blame at all because that other person could have just as, just, just as easily chosen to be honest about what was missing instead of going the other route. So it's still not about some people Say, oh, it's my fault we didn't have that. No, that's not at all. It, it's that something is, is a problem here. Whether it is things in the relationship that are challenging, but most oftentimes it's really about the person who cheated. It's really about their own emotional work, their journey. They need to figure out why they feel the way they feel. You know, what, what, what is, what is the wound that is affecting them now? Are they numbing? Are they seeking validation? Are they seeking, you know, this, this external feeling of self worth? And what is that? What does that look like? And being able to, to get to that, being able to understand that the experience makes sense and let's share that experience so that we can get past that and grow from now.

[Kathy]

Right? And I, I do, you know, because, listen, I love reality tv. I watch it all the time. I'm obsessed with all the Real Housewives. That's like my, my, that I watch all the time. I love it. And you always see like, you know, the way, you know, regular people, when someone cheats, like, oh my God, he's such a, like, dump him, don't ever talk to him. You know, like, people really think like if someone cheats on you, you just like have to leave them. You know what I mean? And, but like, I don't. Like, I've had many couples on my show who have gone through cheating situation in their marriage and been able to work through it and they're so much happier and on the other side, you know, living a much better life. Right. It's just. But so many people, like, I feel like would give people like, you know, think that you, you have to leave somebody, but you can't work through it.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Yes, exactly. And, and I do think there's like shame, right?

[Kathy]

Like, yeah, yeah, sure.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Some people feel like it's a, you know, this is a deal breaker. I'm done.

[Kathy]

Yes.

[Jen Pinkerton]

And I would challenge that. The word deal breaker means that the pain is so much for you, you don't feel like you can get past it. Yeah, yeah. And I, I try to express to people that you still have that choice later. If you go through this process of trying to work through this journey and at the end you still feel like, I don't want to be here, so be it. But hasn't your marriage or your relationship, whatever time you've invested, worth the exploration to see what you both learn? Because at the, at the minimum, it's going to help you heal and at the maximum, you might be able to build an entirely new relationship together.

[Kathy]

Yeah. And what is the process of like, you know, having. Having a couple work through it?

[Jen Pinkerton]

You know, everybody's a little bit different depending on what they go through. But, but it's, it's, it's definitely coming in together and talking about what happened, being very vulnerable, being very real. And, and then I meet with each person individually to get a better understanding of where they are. And then I'm very upfront and direct about this timeline. It takes a long time to be able to, to get past that pain. There are moments of disclosure, there's moments of acceptance. It's kind of like the stages of grief. You know, you're going to go through anger and denial and acceptance and bargaining and the same things you do if someone dies. Because that is what it feels like often to the person who is suffering from feeling that their partner was with someone else, whether it was emotionally or physically or both. And so there's working to support that person through their grief and their pain. And then there's also on the other side, working with the other person to help them understand what they were feeling, what they're suffering from, and what caused them to do what they did. And so those two separate levels of work and support are happening. And then once they've both been raised up to a place where they are able to hear, you know, something different and they're able to look at things differently, then it's coming back together in a way to say, how can we have true apology, how can we have true forgiveness? How can we now create, with brand new tools, an entirely different relationship where you both feel totally seen and heard? And we now have emotional safety, which is the barrier to going elsewhere. You know, we actually have this safety in our relationship to work through anything together because we see each other differently than we ever did before.

[Kathy]

Yeah, no, of course. And like, you know, because a lot of times people think like, oh, it's mostly guys that cheat, but, you know, women cheat too. Right. I mean, do you feel like it's a 50, 50. Are there any stats that you know of that say, like, the difference between, you know, men versus women when it comes to cheating?

[Jen Pinkerton]

There's a lot of stats out there. I'm not sure, you know, how, how much I buy into that.

[Kathy]

Yeah.

[Jen Pinkerton]

And to me, what does that do? Anyway, I, I think that it's more about recognizing that as much as. What I wish people would know is that as much as you are hurting that your partner cheated, as much as you are hurting that they did this to you, can you have a tiny bit of space to recognize that there is something they are struggling and suffering from? Also, you probably can't see it because it's internal. It's their own wounds. It's everything that they've experienced in life that's brought them to this relationship. And it probably has very little, if anything to do with you.

[Kathy]

Right.

[Jen Pinkerton]

And can you hold space enough? Can you hit pause enough to be curious enough to say, can we work on that? And. And looking at the relationship at whole, not just in this one moment, not this one thing that was wrong and bad, because sometimes you could have a relationship. You have been married for 30 years. They've loved each other. They still love each other. And that's why it's such a shock, because it seems so unbelievably wrong. And yet aren't those 30 years worth something to hit the pause button and see what could happen? Again, you always have the choice to leave and end it.

[Kathy]

Right.

[Jen Pinkerton]

But I urge people, don't end it immediately. Go to someone who specializes in this work like I do, or someone else who does that, who truly can walk you down a very different path. And healing.

[Kathy]

Right. And how long is the typical process? I mean, is it like. I'm assuming it's years.

[Jen Pinkerton]

It is years before you are totally to a place where it feels like it. It's in the rearview mirror. But that doesn't mean it takes years to feel better.

[Kathy]

Right.

[Jen Pinkerton]

I would say within a very short time, you can feel a lot better about the person you're with.

[Kathy]

Right.

[Jen Pinkerton]

In a very short time, the hurt doesn't feel so monumental for the person who was betrayed. And the person who did the betraying is able to sit with their shame in an easier way, and they're able to actually connect the dots and understand what they're bringing to the table and what their wounds are. So I would say pretty quickly you have some form of relief. Now, is it healing and behind you? No.

[Kathy]

Right.

[Jen Pinkerton]

But is there relief that can be done quickly? Yes.

[Kathy]

Yeah. And I think a lot of people, if they've never been. I. I've been in therapy many times in my life. Like, I'm very pro therapy. I talk about it all the time on my show. You know, it blows my mind that some people have never been to therapy. I'm like, you know, and that there's still some people out there that are so anti it. But like, what people don't know if they've never been. Like, when you know that every week, like you have this place where you're going to be able to go and talk about things, it's much easier to, like, kind of hold on to things and not flip out. You know what I mean? Because it's like, there's a safety in that. And that kind of of a thing, I think really helps in a time like that. You know what I mean? You know that every week you're going to be going. You're going to be able to talk about your. Someone and you have some help somewhere, you know, I mean, because when you're doing. Trying to navigate something like that alone, I. I don't know how someone could do it.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Right. It is. It takes time. I mean, it. It does take time, because the idea is you've got to recognize, well, to this person, it feels like, wow, they just made this decision. They just cheated on me. It is so much bigger than that. And it wasn't something that happened impulsively almost always. You know, I give my clients a list of, here are the reasons people cheat. Which one of these sound possible? Because you're looking at a lot of different things. Is this addiction? Is it trauma? Is it ego? Is it sexual mismatch? Is it lack of safety? Is it the inability to feel seen? Is it lack of validation and attunement? You know, is it it. Is it something even bigger? And. And it's. It's. People want to look at it in a bubble, in a vacuum, and you just can't. It has to be so much bigger than that to truly understand the why. Right?

[Kathy]

And it's not like everybody that cheats is a terrible person. Okay, now listen. We all know that the best sex is when you're not in a hurry and you get to savor every moment. And listen, isn't summer the best time to kind of like. Like slow down and rediscover how good on hurried sex can be? And you know where you're going to find help doing just that? It's at beducated. Beducated.com is like the Netflix of sex education. They have over 150 courses on everything to do with sex for both couples as well as singles. They have slow sex classes, they have yoni classes, masturbation classes, you name it moment, they have it. And what I love about Educated is a lot of the classes have video tutorials to go with them. So you don't just learn by hearing someone talking to you or reading about it. You learn by seeing real people in action showing you exactly what to do. So what are you waiting for? Go check out Beducated. All you got to do is go to the description and click on the link to kick off your summer of love by taking the Beducated quiz. Once you take the quiz quiz, you're going to get your own personalized roadmap to a slower, more pleasurable sex life. All you got to do is go to the description, click on the link to take the quiz, and you're going to get your personalized roadmap to a slower, more pleasurable sex life.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your $1 per month [e-mail] specialoffer I'm Hannah. I've lost 75 pounds in 20 months with GLP1s diet and exercise on row. I've gone from struggling to run a mile to running farther every day. You can access FDA approved GLP1s online. Get the support you need to reach your weight loss goals. Go to RO Co Weight to see if you qualify. I'm a paid row partner. 20% average weight loss in one year in non diabetics with obesity or overweight with a weight related medical condition versus 3.1% in placebo arm Rx only. To stay informed about serious side effects. Go to RO Safety.

[Kathy]

Maybe it's a terrible thing to do. I mean I, I love these. I get, when I used to have a YouTube channel, I used to get these, you know, comments when I would have cheating episodes where people are just like very black and white and like this person, person's like a terrible person. They should have just left. And I feel like, yeah, in fantasy land, right? When someone has like a problem or an issue or maybe something's being presented or they're about to cheat, like the, the right thing to do would be just to end their whole marriage and leave and not cheat. But like in real life, like sometimes that doesn't happen a lot of times. It doesn't happen a lot of times. There's so much more involved than Lee, you know, that people can't leave a relationship. You know what I mean? I just think that people see it's so much more simplistic than it. It is.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Yes, and what if I ask each person, what if? What if instead of being impulsive and go sitting in a place of pain and ego, what if instead you hit pause and you become curious to say, I do know there's something redeeming about this person because I've been with them X amount of time.

[Kathy]

Yeah.

[Jen Pinkerton]

And just because of that, because I love them once and I felt in love with them once, I'm going to hit pause and see what happens. I'm going to see what I learn and what they learn. And I might be curious enough to build a brand new relationship because frankly, if you leave them, you have to go build a brand new relationship with someone else probably eventually. So why not give this a little time to see what happens?

[Kathy]

Yeah. Not only that, you know, I, I. Besides cheating on people in my past life, I was cheated on first many times. And you know, I have to say, I remember my first boyfriend who cheated on me when. And he, you know, it was like crazy making. I didn't trust him. I stayed with him and. But I didn't trust him. I was like a crazy person. Of course I left the relationship. And he was like, oh, you're just gonna be like this crazy, distrustful psychopath when you leave me. And I was like, no, like, this leaves, leaves. You know, this is, this is only because of you. Like, I'm gonna leave and I'm gonna be fine with the next person. But that wasn't true. Like, that distrust stuck with me, you know what I mean? Because of that trauma. Like you said, there is some PTSD that happens when that happens to you, you know, and so you might just take that on to the next relationship if you don't fix it. Even if you don't stay with that person, you kind of have to work through that stuff because it will follow you and it can go with you. It's not like just because you're not with that person, if you were really betrayed, that, you know, like, that could stay with you and you could become very distrustful in your next relationship. And that's. You don't want to dump that on somebody else 100%.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Because we will always repeat what we don't heal.

[Kathy]

Right? Exactly. Yeah.

[Jen Pinkerton]

And sometimes people have this very, very myopic goal of, okay, we're successful because we. There's no more cheating. But that's too low of a goal to me. The real goal is to create a relationship where your emotional safety is so unbelievably strong that partners naturally bring their loneliness, their insecurity, Maybe it's their disappointment. Maybe it's attraction and pain back towards each other instead of away from each other. And that's real intimacy. That's. That doesn't mean you're not going to struggle. It's not perfect, but you're choosing to work through things together, even when life becomes very difficult. And that is the real goal.

[Kathy]

Yeah. And that's all about shift. Right. And what is that all about? Communication?

[Jen Pinkerton]

No, it's about emotional safety.

[Kathy]

It's about how do you get that to your part. Like, how do people give that to each other?

[Jen Pinkerton]

By being vulnerable enough to talk about what has hurt you your whole life before you even met this partner. By understanding what is it? That. What is the wound I carry? Because all of us carry wounds. We all have wounds from our life experiences. Some people call it trauma, some people can call it wounds, but we all experienced something. It doesn't mean your parents weren't amazing. It could be on the playground. It could be your first boyfriend. There is something in life that happened that shaped you, that affected you. I mean, I would say that our personality is nothing. Nothing other than a set of our own trauma responses to life. You know, we learn how to cope with feelings at a very young age. And so understanding who you are, really, in a very deep way, and showing that to your partner and working through that and having the emotional safety that I never have to worry that my partner will accept me. They may not like me at moments. We may have to work through things. It may be hard, but they're here, loving me.

[Kathy]

Yeah.

[Jen Pinkerton]

And. And that's the holy grail, you know, because it's. It's. It's like recognizing too, that that healing doesn't happen when the affair ends. Healing is going to really just begin when both people become emotionally honest enough finally to create the kind of relationship that nobody needs to escape anything and nobody needs to. To do anything other than. Than rely on each other for that safety that we're all seeking.

[Kathy]

Yeah. Let's focus a little bit more on set, like, because I. Because I have a sex podcast and I have all these episodes on. You know, I sure have a lot of people, people who call into my show, and the cheating is a lot of times because of that sexual mismatch. Right. Whether it's their wife went into menopause and have. Hasn't been with them for 10 years, and all of a sudden they started cheating, or they, you know, were living a secret life and they had these kinks that they're into and they could Never bring it to their partner so they're living them secretly, you know, like how, like, let's talk about that specifically being an issue and how you help come couples deal with that. Because for me, what I, what always blows my mind is how much, you know, people don't communicate with their partners. You know what I mean? Like, you would think that it would be the easiest person to go to, right? To tell them, to tell your secrets to would be the person that you've been living with for 30 years. But in real life, a lot of times it's that total stranger, right? It's a lot easier to be exactly who you were with that person because you know, if you told your 30 year old partner and they looked at you and said ew, that's a, you have a lot more to lose there, right? So unfortunately a lot of times people are more able to go out and like be more honest and more communicative with someone they barely know than their own partner. And it's like so backwards, you know?

[Jen Pinkerton]

Yes, but sexual mismatch doesn't cause someone to cheat, okay? Sexual mismatch creates a vulnerability in the relationship, okay? So the decision to betray is still the individual choice.

[Kathy]

Okay?

[Jen Pinkerton]

There's a vulnerability now. So you have to address the sexual mismatch. You know, whether it's frequency, whether it's quality, whether it's types, whether it's emotionally disconnected, you know, you have to understand that there's a difference and we have to actually talk about it. Because even rejection is very rarely just about sex. Oftentimes it's emotional. It's maybe somebody says, I'm not in the mood. And the other person takes that to mean I'm not wanted, I'm not desired, I'm not being chosen. And if there's an existing wound about not being picked or not being enough or not being chosen, now this has been activated to such a big way, you know, and in reality, desire is influenced by so many things. It's influenced by emotional safety, by stress, by body image, hormones, mental load, trauma, history, and even the overall relationship quality. So you have to really look at all those barriers to desire and figure out what that means.

[Kathy]

Right? Yeah. I mean, I just had one of my favorite cheating episodes was this woman, Scarlet. And talk about sort of like it's not just about sex that it goes deeper. Like she, she was like the woman who wanted a lot of sex. She was still very young in her marriage, but her husband was not interested at all. And it got to the point where he even says she, like, she did bring up, like, you know what? I feel like maybe I will wind up cheating on you. Like, because. Because this is like. Because it was going on for so long. And he said, well, if you just do it, just, like, don't even tell me. And that was like an even bigger diss to her. You know what I mean? Like, you. Like, that doesn't feel good for somebody to say that to you. You know, it's not just.

[Jen Pinkerton]

No, but I would much. Yeah, yeah, but I'd much rather than be talking about it. I'd much rather her be saying, hey,

[Kathy]

oh, no, she was cheated. She eventually cheated on. I mean, she did cheat on him,

[Jen Pinkerton]

but she never got.

[Kathy]

She never got the official free pass. But I'm like, maybe you just needs an official free pass so that you're not definitely, like, doing it, because there were so many layers to it. It was just, like, super interesting, you know? But it was like him just saying that if you do it, I just don't want to know about. It was just another, like, to her, another kind of rejection because it was like, he's not going to give her what she wants and what she's been asking for. And this whole time, you know, it's kind of like, okay, go get it someplace else. And that's for a woman that's like, why don't you want me? You know, it was another. It was rejection. And men feel the same way. That. I mean, that's the same thing for men.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Yeah, everybody. Like, one of the deepest longings I hear in therapy from people is I want to feel like my partner wants me.

[Kathy]

Yeah.

[Jen Pinkerton]

And that's not even the same as wanting sex. That's like, the longing to feel chosen and important. And that's an emotional experience. And that emotional experience compounds that physical one. You know, it's. It's always ironic to me or interesting. Maybe they.

[Kathy]

It.

[Jen Pinkerton]

People can talk about finances easier than they talk about sex.

[Kathy]

No, I know.

[Jen Pinkerton]

And it's one of the things that when people are dating, they look at somebody's finances. Is this person a spender and I'm a saver? Do they live their life in a way that I could live my life? But nobody on a date talks about sex. And it's just as important. It's just as important to have the same thing and the understanding about what you need and what you want and what I need and what I want. And how can we meet in this place where we're. We're both validating it. And I. I tell all My clients that sexual fantasies are nothing more than preferences. And you have to view it that way. One person might like Indian food, and somebody else likes Mexican food. Neither person is wrong. But what we sometimes do is we judge. This person wants Mexican food. We judge it. It becomes a story in our head about something wrong with them for wanting something. And nothing is ever wrong. We like what we like. It's preference. And sexual imprinting about what we like happens very early, before you ever met this partner. So validating and understanding it and working through a yuck and yum kind of idea of, you know, what is your. What is your yum? What is your yuck? How can we find the yes, no's and maybes that work together? How can we build a relationship where we both feel sexually satisfied as well as emotionally satisfied?

[Kathy]

Satisfied?

[Jen Pinkerton]

Yeah, that takes some work.

[Kathy]

Yeah, for sure. Because I think the biggest. I think there's a lot of fear around sort of bringing up your fantasies and really letting your partner know what you're really into. Because like I said, there's nothing worse than if you're sitting across from someone, you tell them that you're into it, and they're like, ew, that's gross. Or, you know what I mean? Like, when they start, really, it's like the. The judgment, I think, is, like, really scary. Like, people just don't want to hear that, so they just, like, avoid it all together.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Right. That's why I say you can't yuck somebody else's yawn, you know? And one of the big mistakes couples make is they assume that sex should stay the same. But people evolve. Bodies change, Fantasies change, comfort changes, hormones change. And healthy couples have to revisit their conversations about desire all the time, just like they would in planning their vacation or talking about finances or anything else. Sex has to be something that is vital to their relationship and just as much as these other factors and to be something they can talk about freely. And it doesn't have to be personalized that something's wrong with somebody. I mean, would we say to. To. To somebody, I really want to travel here, and does that mean something's wrong with me, that I want to go to the south of France and. And you want to go, you know, you want to stay in the state. There's something wrong with that? No, maybe I don't want to do it, but would I consider doing it for you? Or it could be compromised and do it this way, or could we only do it for this amount of time? Or could we plan on it? And eventually we'll do it here. We work through those sorts of things. Why can't you do the same thing about sex?

[Kathy]

Yeah, it's, you know, yeah, it's unfortunate because I feel like the younger generation is a lot more open and, you know, sex, there's such. There's a lot less stigma around sex and sexuality and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, I have a lot of people on my show that grew up in a time where, you know, you just kept a lot of your. That stuff to yourself. Unfortunately, you know, I have a whole Fetish Friday episode with a lot of guys, you know, calling in with their secret fetishes. And, you know, I would say it's like 10% of them are being honest about it.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Right. But sexual mismatch never destroys a relationship. It's the silence about the sexual mismatch that'll destroy it. You know, when couples can courageously talk about their desire, their fantasy, their vulnerability, their rejection, their, their emotional needs too do they're going to build a relationship where everybody's chosen and everybody's emotionally safe? And when you do that, then betrayal is far less likely to happen?

[Kathy]

Oh, yeah, for sure. And like, what would you say to couples, like, if they're, you know, if there's a partner out there that feels like they're in a mismatched relationship and they're getting frustrated, they haven't cheated yet, but you know what I mean, that might be in the horizon. Like, what do they do so that it doesn't. That doesn't happen to. Down the line?

[Jen Pinkerton]

You know, number one, I would hope that you have the type of emotional safety to have this conversation. And the conversation would look like, honey, is this a good time to talk? Because we always ask for buy in before we have a big conversation. This is not something you're going to do when somebody's walking out the door or on the phone or when there's, you know, people all around. Set the time to have a serious conversation and then say, I love you and I want to talk to you about some needs I have and some things. I want to be really open and vulnerable with you because you're so important to me. And I hope that you can see me and be curious about what I have to share with you and be honest about what you need. Now if you can't feel like you can do that, then go get help to do that. Go see a sex therapist. Like, I'm an ASEX certified sex therapist. Go to somebody who truly does this work. Work a Relational therapist that works with sex therapy and go to them with that. With that presenting concern. I want to be able to talk to my spouse about my sexual needs and maybe a mismatch in our needs or desires. And I need help getting to a place where we can have a thriving sex life because I want to be with my partner.

[Kathy]

Right.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Yeah, that's workable. It is workable. It is never something that isn't workable. It's just sometimes people need help of how to get past some of the. Those barriers to get through that and talk about it and implement it. And there's so many clinical ways to do that, and people sometimes are just afraid to get help.

[Kathy]

And what do you see on the other side of. Of, you know, once you do that, you know, how does it change things? Have. I know how I've seen it on my show. Like, how have you seen. Like, what has. How. That. What are the changes that you've seen in the. The couples you've helped, you know, know, in your practice?

[Jen Pinkerton]

I see couples that are suddenly having sex like they did when they're dating.

[Kathy]

Yeah.

[Jen Pinkerton]

I see couples who say that, wow, we are doing things now that I have never done. I didn't even know they wanted to do. I didn't even know I wanted to do.

[Kathy]

Exactly.

[Jen Pinkerton]

And now this is so fulfilling and so exciting. And now we have this sexually charged environment in our life that we were missing. And a lot of times, especially with empty nesters like, this now feels so amazing. Like, I. I love this stage of our life. I feel a sense of aliveness. And that sense of aliveness is something we are all searching for. And I believe everybody can have that in their relationship. I really do. It takes only two things, and I tell every client this. It takes interest and commitment.

[Kathy]

Right.

[Jen Pinkerton]

So be interested enough to work through it together and be committed enough through the process. Because sometimes when you get help from this, When I work with clients, I'm very upfront. We might have a little bit of discomfort in the beginning because we're going to be raw, we're going to be exposed, we're going to be vulnerable, and it's going to hurt. There's going to be an ouch moment a little bit in the beginning. But if you can be committed to no big decisions while you're working with me, and if you can see this through, I can assure you you will feel change. You will feel a change. Because we're learning new information. It's impossible to not grow if you're given new information and new Tools and a new energy and zest for your relationship.

[Kathy]

Right. But what about the partners? Because I have these. You know, I used to do private calls before I was, like, super busy. And my private calls were always full of guys that were, like, very monogamous men, married to their wives, totally in love with them, but like I said, you know, and they were, like, on the verge of cheating because they haven't gotten laid in 10 years, and they really didn't want to, you know, And I would ask them, like, did you tell your wife this? You know, and these are. I'm talking about the person that has tried everything, whether it's the man or the woman. Like, Scarlett tried everything with her husband. You. He didn't want to go to therapy, and even when he did, he wouldn't talk. Like, what do you say to the one partner that wants to do something about it, that has a partner that does it? You know, like, what should they. Like, what's the first step for them? Like, for me, I would always be like, just go to the sex therapist by yourself first. And they'll probably help you, give you the tools or the things to say to maybe help your partner get on board. Right. I don't know. Like, what is exactly right?

[Jen Pinkerton]

Yeah, you're exactly right. There are ways and nuances.

[Kathy]

Right.

[Jen Pinkerton]

That clinically we know how to approach things. Right. That you're going to have a more receptive audience, for sure. And. And understanding how to be curious and vulnerable rather than attacking or defensive. You know, understanding and. And having a. A. A readiness to be able to answer and overcome the objections that might come up and working through that together. Yes. I work with individuals all the time who say, you know, I don't really feel like I could bring my partner in here, but I want to make this better. Okay. And that's easy to do. It's. Again, I feel like so often if you're sitting in your relationship and something's missing, and this doesn't matter, if we're talking about sex, if we're talking about a fair recovery, if we're talking about just overall, maybe conflict or overall just satisfaction, all those things are workable. But we don't get an owner's manual for our relationship. We have to study and pass a test to drive a car or to do anything professionally. But to marry someone and blend two lives, two sets of baggage, two sets of trauma and attachment histories and. And create a life together, everybody can just do it with. With no help. Help. All you get is the modeling you saw from your Parents, which even if they were amazing parents, parents can only do the best with what they have to give. And what did they have? What did they know? What are you seeing from them? And then what are you learning? What are you learning in your first love lessons, when you date, when you experience love and loss? You know, we're bringing so much to the table. And I think most people don't realize that all of that heavily, if not almost completely, influences your relational quality and your overall emotional health. And so if you would work on that and actually get what I call the kind of the owner's manual that you can get in therapy, in working with someone who specializes in this work, now you have an actual benchmark. You've got this baseline to know this is what we should be doing. We should be doing A, B and C. This is what, and if we run into this, we should be doing D, E and F. And if this happens, that we're going to do xyz, you know, there's actually very structured ways to thrive in a relationship if you follow kind of that new process and this new way to connect with one another.

[Kathy]

Right. So for the, for that partner, you would say, come in alone. Right. And you would help them sort of get the other partner on board. Because ultimately, I do believe, unless you're going to help them leave the relationship, I do believe, like for that relationship to, to get better, eventually they both need to be in together. Correct. Or maybe not. I don't know.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Yes. I mean, I love that, I love it when both do. Because honestly, everybody can grow and learn. I don't care where you are in your life. There's none of us that are perfect. There's none of us to know everything.

[Kathy]

Yeah.

[Jen Pinkerton]

And everybody can grow and learn. And so sure, I love it when I can get all the people in a room.

[Kathy]

Yeah.

[Jen Pinkerton]

But sometimes you have to start the other way, and that's okay. But I find that sometimes even if one person comes and they start sharing information, the other partner suddenly gets a little curious and says, you know what? Okay, I'll, I'll join that zoom one time. Especially because it can be virtual. You don't even have to leave your sofa. Okay, one time. You know, I, I, I often challenge, ask your partner if 50 minutes of their time, you know, is worth it. Are you worth 50 minutes of their time to be curious? Right. And join a call for 50 minutes and see what level of curiosity you have to see what information I'm sharing and what your partner is curious about and what we're Learning and what new tools you can have.

[Kathy]

Yeah. And I'm sorry if your partner's going to therapy and bettering themselves and you're not like, hopping on board. You know, I, you know, you, you, you got to be a little nervous because, like, what we said in the beginning, like, you know, whoever you are is like, what's sitting across from you. And like, a lot of times when I see certain divorces happen, it's because one person did better themselves and the other person just wasn't there yet and didn't want to evolve more. You know what I mean? And a lot of times people see that person that left as like this terrible person. But sometimes I'm like, well, that person, like, bettered themselves, didn't want to stay in that bad relationship and moved on. If the other person would have bettered themselves too, at that same time, they would have grown together. But sometimes that's the reason why people do go in different directions, and that's okay too. But I feel like if one person's better, the other person should hop on board because you both want to get better together. That's what I believe.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Well, we're all need to grow and evolve. I mean, every living thing.

[Kathy]

But some people don't

[Jen Pinkerton]

either grows or dies. Think about that. Yeah, everything does.

[Kathy]

Yeah.

[Jen Pinkerton]

So we, we have to do that. We have to continue to grow. That's how we're attractive to our part partners. That's how we're attractive to ourselves. That's how we feel. A sense of, of satisfaction in life is by learning new things and evolving and growing and shifting. And that's just part of, of living a life that is balanced and healthy. And yeah, if you see your partner doing some work, you damn well ought to look at yourself and think, what. What is holding me back? And maybe you need to go have your own session with somebody to see why are you holding back so much?

[Kathy]

Exactly.

[Jen Pinkerton]

What are you so afraid of?

[Kathy]

Yeah, exactly. Now for the people that you see, you know, come to you, you know, totally broken because this, you know, cheating just took place. Like, if there's like, I don't know, if you could give me a percentage of the couples that make it through and stay together to compare to the couples that do. See a therapist. Right. For this kind of a thing, but still wind up leaving each other at the end, you know, versus the stay together.

[Jen Pinkerton]

I think that that when couples actually do stay together after an affair and they've worked through things, I, I want to say, I think the statistic I had seen before was somewhere along the idea that, that if they do work on things, at least, you know, 60 to 75% will stay together.

[Kathy]

Right.

[Jen Pinkerton]

And I think the number's really higher than that, to be honest with you. But I will say that when a repair, the number I am comfortable with is that if it stays hidden or denied or minimized or not addressed, your relationship is going to fail. That one I'm pretty certain about. Eventually it will, right? Because we have to deal with the things that hurt us in life. It's kind of like the idea of the pot on the stove. It may slowly boil, slowly boil for a long time, but at some point it will boil over. And we can't deny pain. We can't deny things that have hurt us forever. And eventually things are going to have to be addressed. And so I just think that there is never anything to lose to be curious enough to go and get some help. And I'm not saying you have to go for a year to get help. Even if you go in the beginning to learn how you feel, to really get a better judge on your own perspective and to understand the perspective of your partner and to be able to have something to work from, it can be very eye opening, very eye opening about who you are and about what your relationship is.

[Kathy]

So.

[Jen Pinkerton]

So I just think there's never a negative.

[Kathy]

Yeah, no, for sure. And so what else do you help couples with? I mean, like, because you listen. I'm assuming you do virtual sessions and stuff, right? You. Right. So I have a big audience. They're all listening. Like, what else besides, you know, like, like for me, like, what I hear from you is like, people could be seeing you if they're like, you know, if they are dealing with cheating, but also like, if somebody's like that person that might, you know, those, those calls that I used to get. Like that one partner that can't get the other partner on board. Like, you know, you could help them. Like, what else do you do? Or what else are you helping couples with in your practice? Or even single people, you know, solo people by themselves.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Yes. Well, as I'm a connection expert and I focus on relationships, that's the relationship. Relationship either with your partner or the one with yourself or the one with someone else in your life. And I work with people, whether it is dating, maybe they, they, they are dating and they keep, you know, not having success in dating. What is that about? What is going on? Who are you? Because you're the common denominator. So let's look at that right it's, it's about relationships in general. It's about staying connected during conflict. Understanding how to show up differently in conflict is a game changer for your life because we don't, we're never taught how to fight fair, we're never taught what that looks like.

[Kathy]

I know.

[Jen Pinkerton]

And the very skills that are so beautiful professionally, independence, control, self confidence, you know, all those things do not help your relationship. So being able to understand what's the opposite of that and how do we, how do we shift out of maybe professional hats into personal hats? Understanding what is healthy, what are some good baselines and benchmarks in your relationship, especially around conflict, especially around sex. And also another big topic that I work with people is co parenting and, and how to deal with that. You know, you're getting a divorce and, and maybe you've moved on and your children who are adults, you know, hate you or, you know, maybe you're having issues with your ex. How does that work? To me it's all about connection. It's about how people connect with other people and anything that's relational, that, that's what I do. I also have a specific special 30 day transformational program and that's virtual and that's intensive. That's in 30 days we're going to have, you know, two, three to four hour sessions. You're going to also have group zooms. You're going to have a library of resources that's for people who say, I, I hesitate to want to commit to doing consistent therapy. Maybe I've done it in the past and it's late, too, too slow and coming in once a week. I feel like by the time we finally get talking, it's over. And so I do these 30 day programs where they're really designed to work as a change agent for your relationship. So that's probably one of my biggest draws that I work with. I have a relational health index quiz on my YouTube that you can go to and it actually gives you a tally from 75 questions of what is your relational health? And if you're anywhere on that lower end end, why not do some work to get better? Why not do some work to show up differently romantically and relationally in your life? So those are kind of my main core work that I do. But anything when it comes to a relationship, I'm here for that.

[Kathy]

Yeah, I love that 30 day course is that, and when you commit to that, right, Is it every day? Is it three times a week? Is it when you choose to go and do it or is it like like do when you say they meet with you is there certain times?

[Jen Pinkerton]

Yes. So we would together decide which is interesting three hour intensives would be. So we would pick here's three hours at a time two times in that month. Plus you're going to have me available via via text and messaging app for other things things come up and then you have a a a group for anyone else that's in that program that you can participate in a weekly group hours as well where you learn things you don't have to share. You can just sit there and listen and observe and be voyeuristic and take what you want. There's also a library of resources things that I'm giving out each each every few days in that month Resources of Here are some rules of what you should be doing. Here are some things happy couples do. This is what a real date night should look like. This is what a real apology is. This is how bids for connection should look like. This is what your relationship bank account should look like. And it's it's structure and a program and it's like this content condensed idea of therapy in a box that I'm trying to give to clients who. Who really can't dedicate long term time. Yeah I got it to work on it but can say you know what? I will give it my all for 30 days and most people will do that.

[Kathy]

I love it.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Why don't you give it's really popular.

[Kathy]

Give a shout out to all your stuff and I'll put a link like you just tell them where to go to to find you and and everything. But I will actually for everyone that's driving that's listening put a link in the description. Just send me the link that you want me to put in whether it's your website or the link tree or whatever. Thank you. Okay.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Yeah it's Jen Jen pinkerton.com or you can go to my Instagram which is Jen J E N N B My middle name Pinkerton and I have a link tree there with everything I offer and I do probably videos every day on my Instagram which are pretty helpful. I have a YouTube with my podcast and a lot of long long form videos on all the same topics we're talking about today on YouTube.

[Kathy]

All right, awesome. So I'll put. You want me put the link tree or your website in the description which is better for you?

[Jen Pinkerton]

Just put my website.com.

[Kathy]

okay. And that's Jen with two ends. Okay. But I'll put the link in so people could find you thanks so much Jen for calling in.

[Jen Pinkerton]

I love this whole topic.

[Kathy]

It was super fun talking.

[Jen Pinkerton]

Me too.

[Kathy]

Thanks.

[Jen Pinkerton]

It's really fun. Thanks so much. Bye bye bye.

[Kathy]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for 15amonth is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] switch upfront payment

[Jen Pinkerton]

of 45 for 3 months, $90 for 6 months or 180 for 12 month plan required 15 per month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms.

[Kathy]

I started Ornod in 2013 and we make bike apparel. The best part of Shopify for me is our ability to run the business as essentially non technical people. We're able to admin everything on the back end, front end and sell things online easily. If Shopify were a bike accessory, I think it would actually be the bicycle.

[Jen Pinkerton]

It's the thing that you do the thing on.

[Kathy]

We run the business on Shopify. Start your free trial on shopify.com okay, I just want to tell you before you go that my book, it's called Strictly Anonymous Confession, Secret Sex Lives of Total Strangers, is now available not only in paperback and ebook, but you can pre order the audiobook. It's still not going to be out till August 25, but you can pre order it. The book is basically 17 different stories taken, taken from my show. I kind of picked one story from each category that I talk about on my show. Like there's a hot wife story, there's a cuck queen story, there's a cuck story, there's a gang bang girl story. Like I said, 17 stories. And they're all told in the third person and they're all true. I took the interview and rewrote it in the third person. And I wouldn't really call it like a total erotica book. Think like Penthouse letters. It's more direct. It's not so over the top like erotica. I don't really like that kind of vibe. Right. But these are true stories, 17 of them. They're really short chapters, easy read. You could read, you know, one or two and then skip around. You could read the whole book. It's available in ebag format, paperback format, and finally the audiobook is available coming out August 25th, but you could pre order it now. And if you buy my book in any format or preord preorder it, I will throw in a complimentary link to my Discord. My Discord does not disappoint. Okay? There's no way you get into My Discord any other way than getting the link from me. Okay? I give it to people who buy my book. There's tons of people in there. Everybody shares content with each other and that's what you get to do there. You could post your own pictures and videos. There's tons of channels. We have lots of contests where you could win a lot of money. It's a super fun place to to be. It's a total, strictly anonymous community and you will love it. I will be giving anyone who buys my book access to my Discord. It's private. Like I said, all you got to do is email me a screenshot of your purchase. Whether you did the audiobook, the ebook, or the paperback, send it to me at strictly anonymous podcastmail.com that's strictly anonymous podcastmail.com and I will send send you the link to Discord. So anyway, thanks so much for tuning in.

[Jen Pinkerton]

This is the Strictly Anonymous podcast. Strictly Anonymous podcast.