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Strictly Anonymous Confessions
1535 - Cheating, Polyamory, a Resident V & More w/Natalie Davis
01:08:06
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- [00:01]
Kathy
Welcome to the Strictly Anonymous Podcast. Strictly Anonymous Podcast. Conversations with online strangers. We place ads online. The Craigslist is definitely like the gift that keeps on giving. Real people respond. You go to Singapore or Thailand, you can't not do it. The temptation is just too much. Your friend know that you're banging her? No, no, he has no idea. And anything goes.
- [00:25]
Ad Host
Motto of the show, let your freak flag fly.
- [00:28]
Kathy
Probably the only good advice I'll ever give you is to re hide your whips. And ch.
- [00:32]
Natalie Davis
There is your host, Kathy.
- [00:35]
Kathy
Hey, welcome to the Strictly Anonymous Podcast with Kathy. If you want to follow the Strictly Anonymous Podcast on Instagram or Twitter, follow me at Strict Anonymous if you want to be on the show. It's called Strict Strictly Anonymous because they change everyone's voices and names. Okay, so if you have an interesting secret naughty life that you want to talk about while remaining anonymous or not anonymous, if you're out and proud, you could email me at strictly anonymous podcast gmail.com or go to my website, strictly anonymous podcast.com and click on Be on the Show. Now listen, if you have a naughty confession you want to leave on my confessions line, you could do that 24. 7. The number is 347-420-3579. That's 347-420-3579. Call from a quiet place. I can't use ones when people call where they're driving. Some of those confessions make it onto a confessions episode. The rest go on to my Patreon. Now, my Patreon is super fun and it's very inexpensive if you ask me. It's only $7 a month and you get every single episode. I do seven episodes a week. You get every single one them early before anyone gets them. As well as intro and ad free. You also get all the confessions and you also get Q&As that. I do like every other month where I answer a lot of questions as well as you get anonymous pics of probably every single girl that has called into my show. Every single female guest. I got pictures of them over on my Patreon. Like I said, It's $7 a month. The link to Patreon is in the description. If you do sign up for my Patreon or buy my book. I wrote a book. It's Strictly Anonymous Confession. Secret Sex Lives of Total Strangers. It's all stories from my show told in the third person. They're super fun. And the audiobook is coming out in August. So if you buy my book either in paperback or ebook or audiobook version the links are all in the description. I will also give you access to my private Discord. Like I said, if you join my Patreon or if you call into my show or if you buy my book, I will give complimentary access to my private Discord. My Private Discord is not a paid site. It is free, but it is private and you can only get in if I send you the link. I promise you, you will not be disappointed. My Discord is full of great effing people. Okay? So if you buy my book, send me a screenshot of your purchase and I will send you the link to my Discord. Last thing I'm going to tell you about is if you want to sign up for SDC.com I do have a free trial for my listeners. SDC is like the world's largest online dating website. And it's not just a place where you hook up with people. You could learn all about the lifestyle. You could find out about all the lifestyle events and meetups and all kinds of things going on in your neighborhood as well as if you're going to travel and you want to have a little fun, you're going to find it all on SDC.com Like I said, you get a free trial if you use my code 37712 or just go to the description and click on the link. That's 37712 or just go to the description and click on the link. Okay, today I have on Natalie Davis. She wrote a great about polyamory and her story is like killer. Okay. She came on, she was on before. She gave her whole short story version of her story, which is great. It's episode 1286. Natalie's husband cheated. Then they started swinging and now they're poly. Her husband didn't cheat once, he cheated twice. She talked about that whole journey on that first episode and then she wrote a whole book about it, which I I really believe you want to read because her story was like pretty crazy and they really work. And now they are in a polyamorous relationship. They are. They live in a resident V. There's a metamore that lives with them there. She explains what a resident V is and how everything is set up. She couldn't be happier. She does talk about like and we talk bigger picture on this episode about polyamory, about some of the flack that she got after she wrote her book and how people treated her and came after her for staying with her husband. We talk about what a resident V is and a metamorph and how their whole relationship is set up. We talk about how she has a child, when she came out to him, why she wrote the book. We talk about her husband's cheating and how and why he did it and their conversations about it. And we get really deep, you know, in this episode, too, even though we're talking bigger picture, we talk about so much that I can't mention it all here, of course, in the intro. So instead, I'm just going to get right to it and. And be right back on with Natalie. This is the Strictly Anonymous podcast.
- [05:22]
Natalie Davis
Strictly Anonymous podcast.
- [05:25]
Kathy
Hi, Natalie. Natalie Davis. Welcome back to the Strictly Anonymous. You were on my show. Strictly Anonymous podcast. You're on my show earlier or you're a little while ago. You had a book coming out saying, yes, my Adventures in Polyamory. Your first episode was 1286. And let me just tell you, your first episode, and your story did not disappoint. I mean, it was a book. I mean, the fact, like, if you hadn't wrote a book, I would have been like, you need to write a book. Because it was. It needed to be a book yet. The craziest story and with such a happy ending. So. And to me, so many twists, you know, like, not only did your husband cheat on you once, he cheated on you twice, you stayed through that. That's a story on its own because, you know, and I admire that. And I don't think that someone cheating on someone should be the end all. Be all. Sometimes it is, and I get that. But I also, you know, think people could. You know, I think people have a weird sort of thing with cheating. You know, they see it very black and white, and I think that there's so much in between. And not only did you stay, the crazy story that happened after is, you know, he went poly, then you went poly, and now you're both poly, and you couldn't be happier. Right?
- [06:33]
Natalie Davis
That's pretty much. Pretty much it in a nutshell, Kathy. And I remember that in the interview, you really challenged me and you didn't hold back. And I appreciate, because I tried to be, you know, honest and tell my true story and the book. And yeah, sometimes you're at a crossroads in your relationship, in your life, and you're like, well, what has prepared me to. For this? What are my choices? And that's one of the reasons I wrote this book is like, I didn't even know what choices I had. You know, when you still love your partner, when they still love you, you still have sex, you have a family. You don't want to just throw the baby out with the bath water and you want to think about what choices you had. And I grew up thinking, well, you know, I guess that's the end and we just go our separate ways. Never mind we've been together for 20 years or, you know, we met in college and I'm so glad that I didn't do that and that I worked through it and yeah, I got to my happy ending and it's not over yet.
- [07:27]
Kathy
And not only that because you, you know, you did it for you, but like putting the book out there and also like talking about this openly. I think, you know, maybe it gives other people a clue of what they can do. Like you said, you didn't know what your options were, but maybe you're going to help some people to give them another option that maybe they would have never thought of, you know, which I think is like super important. Important. And that's what like books are about or having a microphone is all about, is like helping people, you know?
- [07:53]
Natalie Davis
I hope so.
- [07:54]
Kathy
Yeah, well, you'd be a little bit more positive for sure.
- [07:59]
Natalie Davis
Well, you know, you, you write a few articles, you read the hundreds of comments about how you're a pervert. Oh, really? Shouldn't raise children and doesn't really love you. Oh my goodness, you're kidding. So it's kind of good to know what's out there. And that's because I live in a very supportive bubble, I realize, like my friends and family and even former colleagues. Most people have been very supportive. But you get that out there in the, the vast wasteland of the America and the Internet, I guess, and people are not very kind. So it just reminds me of some of the mindset out there and what non monogamous people are up against. And it's a wake up call and it's great. And that's why I work with nonprofits like Open to try to advance the rights from non monogamous and educate and inform and promote acceptance. So that's, I think that's the greater goal that I have as a polyamorous is not just to write a book and just to be in my insular world, but to pay it forward and to march in pride parades and to speak at conferences and to promote rights and just be visible and say, hey, I'm just a regular person living my regular life, not hurting anybody. And this is, this is how it goes. And you should think a little bit more broadly. Even if it's not for you, we're not hurting Anybody?
- [09:17]
Kathy
Yeah, that's what I always say about my book. I remember my publisher, when I was doing a couple stories, they did, they're like, some of them didn't have a beginning, middle and an end. Like there was no tragic thing that happened. It was kind of like just someone's journey through non monogamy. And she was kind of like, well, what's the point? I'm like, the point is like this because it's a true story. Like I think the problem is in the vanilla world, in the majority, the majority of people, people think the minute you open up your relationship and you do anything other than non monogamy that you're doomed for failure. And these stories are here to say. And what my show is here to say is like, maybe this isn't for everyone. I'm never, I'm not promoting this and saying everyone needs to do the things that the people are doing on my show. But what my show is here to say is that not only can it work, it does work. And a lot of times when it does work, people are better off for it. And that to me is what people need to understand because people just wanna like the things I hear when I am listening to the podcast that I listen to about on reality TV and all the stuff that I'm into, you know, the things I hear, regular people that don't know any of this and haven't talked to 1500 people about their real swinger lives or poly lives or non monogamous lives, like they just, the things they say are so ignorant, they just don't know, you know, it's just word on the street is the minute you open up your marriage, it's over. You don't love each other, whatever, and talk about cheating like, you know, it's like that's the other thing that happened that you went through that I think was probably very controversial. The stuff that I hear with cheating, it's so black and white, it's like you have to leave. You know what I mean? And that's all that there is. And people that are bold enough to stay and work through it. Like I just did an episode with an expert and the title was like, you know why people cheat on people they love? You know what I mean? Because typically your girlfriends will be like, oh, he can't love you. Anyone who cheats doesn't love you. You know, I mean, people cheat for so many different reasons. And that's why I have cheating stories on my show all the time. To really let people see the real, like Sort of stuff behind cheating, because that's a very black and white thing too, you know.
- [11:16]
Natalie Davis
Yeah, well, you put people in this monogamous marital box, and half of marriages end in divorce. I'm like, why do I have to be an apologist for monogamy? It's like every time a non monogamous person talks about non monogamy, they have to say, oh, but, but monogamy is good. I'm not attacking monogamy. If that's right for you. Does any monogamous person say, oh, monogamy might not be right for you, and if you want to be non monogamous, that's okay. When half of marriages end in divorce, people are cheating, people are lying, people are hurting their families, abandoning their children. You know, these marriage and divorce memoirs are crazy popular. They're on the New York Times bestseller list. Women, you know, relate to, oh, I was wronged in my marriage, and now I'm going to write a story about how I came out of it. And Rose, like a phoenix. I'm like, well, maybe if you guys would have had a conversation, you know, maybe if you would have known each other a little bit better. Did you ever explore other ways? You know, and. But so many women identify with these. And these books just fly off the shelf. And these people, you know, are on Oprah and on npr, and they're like the poster child for, you know, surviving being wronged. And. Okay, I mean, I get. We live in a patriarchal society. We're trying to do better, and if this makes you feel, you know, not so alone, great, but there. And also, you know, find out who you are and maybe that man's not right for you, but look at all your other options that you have now while we still have rights as women. Let's explore them.
- [12:48]
Kathy
Yeah, no, totally. I love that. I mean, I think that you currently. Or let me just go into this. You currently live in a resident V. And I remember you bringing that up, that word up. And I'm like, what the does that mean? You know, when we started talking and why don't you explain what a resident V is and how you know where you're at now and what, how your whole life is set up after, like, what we just spoke about. And people could hear your origin story either by buying your book, which is the long story, the great story, Right. They could hear a teaser of it on the episode you did with me, which was 1286. But why don't we start talking about how your poly relationship is set up now?
- [13:28]
Natalie Davis
So Right now I live with my nesting partner, my husband. And we've been married over 30 years. We met in college and his girlfriend, other partner, who is my metamor. That's what you call your partner, other partners. And it's called a resident V because we live together and our relationship is shaped like a V with our shared partner, my husband, at the point of the V. And I'm one arm and she is the other arm. And it's not a triangle because she and I do not connect romantically. We're friends, we're roommates, we care about each other and all of that, but we are not intimate partners. So we're not a throuple, we're not a triad. Although to people who don't know the details, if we're out and about together, the three of us out for dinner or out dancing, they might make that assumption. But that is not the case. I also date outside. Like, my husband is kind of my primary anchor partner. And I have other long term relationships, short term relationships, whatever that might be. My metamor also is free to have other relationships. My husband is free to have other ones, although he's, you know, pretty saturated with living with two partners, but also can date other people. Yeah, and we live in a very stable, peaceful household. And we've been doing this for about four and a half, five years.
- [14:50]
Kathy
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- [16:22]
Natalie Davis
And we, you know, share household tasks, we travel together, we eat dinner together, do the dishes together, and we also do things separately. My husband and my metamor spend intimate time together. They might go out and do things without me. The same with me and, and my husband. We do things together separately. And I also date. And the three of us, we just get along and have a lot of overlapping interests. So we do a lot of things together. Just like you would travel with friends that you have common interest in or like, go to a concert that we all like. We have, you know, parties at the house, we like to have dance parties, but we're very social. Our shared partner is the most outgoing of the three of us, so he is very much leans into the party and the trip and an adventure planning, which is great. I would say on the spectrum, she's the most introverted. I'm kind of in the middle. And he is like super, super extroverted. And if there was a picture in a dictionary of kitchen table polyamory, if you've heard that word. No, I never that that would be him holding court with his partners, his metamors, everybody. He, he feels very close to this chosen family of ours. He likes the people that I date and considers them to be friends. You know, he'll call them like brother. And he's just that kind of person that likes to have people he cares about around him. So the whole polycule dynamic and living with two partners really resonates for him. And it just. There's a lot of positivity, I have to say. I'm not saying everything's perfect, but, you know, we've been doing this for five years and we have definitely were in our stride. We know it works, we communicate. And I never thought I would be in this place ever in my life, but we sort of tested it out during the pandemic with another partner because people were bubbling up. It was too hard, you know, to date somebod who wasn't, you know, bubbled up with you who had other risk exposures.
- [18:25]
Kathy
Yeah.
- [18:26]
Natalie Davis
You know, and we did that for a while, but all of the dynamics of the people didn't work quite Right. And so when my husband was dating my current metamor, we took that really slow and she integrated into the household very slowly, like over, you know, six months or so before. We kind of thought, okay, I think this can be a permanent living situation. And she moved in and we had a lot of discussions about how this would work, but we had been kind of doing it ad hoc for many months, so we knew that we got along. And my home is my safe space. And if there's underlying tension and competition and, you know, any kind of friction on a regular basis, that's, that's not a place where I think it's sustainable for me to feel safe and nurtured and to live. So I feel that way now and I know how fortunate I am, but also that we made good choices and that we, we work through it every day.
- [19:26]
Kathy
Yeah. Let me ask you this. Like, if I was talking to your husband and I'm sure you had these conversations with him when the cheating was going on and when he was like, and you guys were figuring out where you were going to go from there and stay together, was it like, you know, did he always kind of know that he maybe wasn't wired for monogamy? He was like, struggling with that and trying, you know, because I feel like probably a lot of guys would, you know, be really open to a non monogamous relationship, but they don't, they, maybe they, they don't know it. They're, they, they, they, they can't bring it up to their partner. You know, did you see him sort of come to terms with that and be honest with that over time with you? Like, what would he say his journey was like?
- [20:05]
Natalie Davis
And I have asked him about this because I say, man, I feel like once you identify you, you heard this word and figured out there were other people like this, that, yeah, kind of found yourself. And he, and he said, well, I think that's a little bit overstated. Okay. Interesting. Yes. Yes, I, I can love more than one person. He is not a jealous person. He has, he wants to experience life. He wants to be expansive and accepting and, and also like, he doesn't want to lose me and the connection that we have. And in his head, even when he was cheating, and I had asked him about this recently because it wasn't so much, you know, you put your body part into somebody else's body part, but just the, the emotional part, like the risk that you take when you do that, that you're, that our relationship would be over. And that to me is such A huge risk. I'm not saying over the years I might not have been attracted to somebody, but I was like, this is not worth risking my marriage over, clearly. And. And for him, he's like, well, I always hoped that it would work out. Like, you know, I always thought that I would be able to talk to you, that we would figure it out. And. And I'm like, wow, that is. I don't know what to do with that. That's a compliment, or that's naive, or you're pretty lucky that it actually did. But I guess maybe he had faith in me that I would be able to think more expansively after, you know, clearly cheating on me and me finding out and all that hurt and feeling humiliated and betrayed is not a good way to start. But I. We had such a bond, and we still. It was hard. I mean, man, fucking beat myself over the head so much about being, you know, a bad feminist and a bad woman, and I should just leave him. And my mom raised me better than that, you know, and yes, I could have been financially independent. I, you know, had a legal career, but I also had a young child. And, you know, all these things are swimming through your head. But I'm sorry, getting back to your question, I do think. Think that he is much more poly than Mano. But when, like, we talk about these things, I said, well, what if I had said no to this? And he said, well, I would have stayed with you, but I would have been a lot less happy. And I think that that is the case with, like, Dan Savage calls it mud, monogamy under duress. That one partner really is more polyamorous and they want to have an open marriage and the other one isn't. But because, you know, they love that person and they love their dynamic, they will be monogamous under duress. And then there are what he calls puds, polyamorous under duress, which he kind of accused me of at the beginning. And I said, well, you know, maybe at the beginning. I was like, I didn't really understand it. Didn't. Didn't know if it was for me. But then as I learned about it, as I experienced about. And like, this all is walked through in the book. You know, it was hard because I'm coming from this totally monogamous, this structure, this conditioning, this fairy tale of, you know, you fall in love, you meet your prince, you get married, you have your. Your babies and your career, and you support each other and you're equal partner. Well, I mean, I like to think we're equal partners and, and, and you just go off in the sunset together, holding hands forever on this straight and narrow path and it doesn't branch out and now like all these branches. And so I have to say thank you, really, because I would be still on the straight path with my husband, who would be always a little bit unhappy that he couldn't have the fuller life that he wants. And there would be this friction always. And I think a lot of marriages are like that. And you just, you accept it, right? No marriage is perfect. I'm not saying we don't have frictions, of course, but if you can lessen them and you can increase the enjoyment, like, isn't that a good thing? Isn't that what we want to like, live our one life as fully and joyfully as we can, you know, and teach our kids that these are the options to explore as long as you're considerate and honest and compassionate. Like, those are the things I want to teach my kid. I think that he's learned.
- [24:15]
Kathy
Yeah. That's what's interesting is that you do have a kid. And how old was your child when this all went down?
- [24:23]
Natalie Davis
Well, he was like, baby, toddler.
- [24:26]
Kathy
Oh, okay.
- [24:27]
Natalie Davis
Happened. So that was, you know, and then I want to say, yeah, maybe a couple years old. And so, I mean, I had a really small child and I had a demanding job and you know, it was a lot. And now he's, he's grown. He's actually in a monogamous relationship, but, you know, who knows what his. How his life will unfold. Yeah. His girlfriend read my book.
- [24:49]
Kathy
Book.
- [24:49]
Natalie Davis
I was like, oh my God, she knows everything.
- [24:51]
Kathy
Yeah, but the younger generation is so much more open minded. I'm sure she didn't think two things about, you know what I'm saying? Don't you notice that?
- [24:58]
Natalie Davis
I think they are. But there is a little bit of, you know, people have definitely accused me of being a doormat. And, and I, I don't know what to say about that. I guess I, I certainly felt like that in the beginning. And one of his. And his affair partner said that of me. And man, you know, that really stung. That really was a, a punch in the gut because you think I wasn't thinking about that myself? You think I didn't look in the mirror and say, why the are you taking this?
- [25:26]
Kathy
Yeah.
- [25:27]
Natalie Davis
And. But there's this man who shows up every day and tells me he loves me, shows me he loves me, finds me attractive, supports me in my career, is always like all of the other things, you know, we're there and we're great. Yeah, right? And yeah, the, you know, the intimacy part and our physical relationship, like any long term term relationships had ups and downs and this was a wake up call. Like, okay, we need to pay attention to this. I need to pay attention to this. And that's fair because the physical part of our relationship is important to both of us. And, you know, we kind of had a rebirth and a renewal of that at a certain point that I go over in the book. He was deployed for a while and then when we reconnected it, you know, it was rough while we were apart and I didn't know what would happen, but we came together and sort of rediscovered how much we cared about each other and it was really. Yeah. Emotional and just meant a lot.
- [26:25]
Kathy
Yeah. When I talked to that expert recently, the episode that I put out where she, she, you know, she talks to, she, she, you know, counsels couples who want to stay together after cheating, she's all about that. And you know, the whole, like I said, the whole title was like, how and why some people cheat on people they love. It doesn't mean that they don't love them. And she was talking about how, you know, when, when cheating happens and that, you know, it's like, it's like a, it's not like you fix the old relationship, it's like you start a whole brand new one. Right.
- [26:53]
Natalie Davis
And typically I like that.
- [26:54]
Kathy
Yeah. Yeah. And it was like amazing. And she says, like the people who make it through and who do get to the other side and not that it's easy, it's like they are happier. It's like a whole different new relationship and they're happier because of it. I mean, some people, like I said, like, and she says, like, they don't make it through and they can't. But for the people that do, I think it's amazing and what she sees and of course it's. I believe it and I think it is that they're better off on, you know, on the other side, they have a whole new relationship. I think Kathy Lee Gifford, I didn't read the article yet, but she just came out and talked because, you know, she stayed with her husband and he had a very public affair and she stayed with him. And she. I just saw a headline the other day where she was just like, like, an affair doesn't mean this or that. I don't know, she's just like explaining, you know, what she went through and why she stayed with him. Because I do think that, you know, all your girlfriends, if when happens like that, your husband, she, oh, he doesn't love you, you have to leave him. You know, it is very black and white. There's this whole thing going on on Real Housewives. I watch all that, you know, where the one person's guy is cheating on the. They're all like harassing her and she's not leaving the guy. It's like, why don't you leave her alone? I don't know why people care so much about other people. People's, you know, And I really think it's a lot easier for people to say, don't be a doormat, just leave. You know what I mean? Like, it's like you have a little kid, you have a husband. Like, you can't take all those things out of the equation. And that's why I like having my cheating stories on, because you're getting all the details. It's. You know what I mean? It's not just like, just leave. Like no one just walks out. There's children, there's property, there's like so much involved. And like you said, you have had like a, a marriage is a pie. Right? Like there's so many different pieces. Sex is just one of them. Right. Like all your other pieces were great. Like you had the companionship, he was a great father. Right. Everything else was good. You know, why throw all of that out? Because of one part that wasn't right. I mean, you fix it and now you got the whole pie back again, right?
- [28:48]
Natalie Davis
Yeah. And. And I also learned a lot more about the draw of being desired. And I think that is a big part of, of while why some people cheat. Like, you're in a long term relationship, things are fine, you know, you get along okay, you have sex, but maybe, you know, definitely not as much as you used to. You know, the wife is tired from working all day and taking care of the kids and making the food and maybe she doesn't feel like sex as much and it, and the husband doesn't feel as desired. And I'm sure this also happens the other way with the woman not feeling desired. And then there's this new person out there who makes you feel wanted and desired, you know, and you just like, you miss that feeling. And I understand that. I think when I started dating, not that I missed that feeling from my husband, but there's something so validating. Some other person finding you attractive. And I was like in my 40s, you know, like I hadn't had a date since my twenties and I hadn't thought about anybody finding me attractive or even thinking. Thinking about that. And here are these, like, hot younger men who are smart and attractive and they can't wait to be with me. And they're interesting, and I'm learning new things from them and they're telling me how sexy I am. And. And I was like, now I get it. Now I know why, you know, people might want to be with more than one person. Like, that just made me feel so alive. And my husband's like, I've been telling you this for years, but, you know, you don't believe me. Someone else has to tell you. I said, well, yeah, I mean, isn't that kind of what happened to you? Admittedly, I probably wasn't saying it as much to him as he was saying it to me because he's just better with that kind of language. But it also taught me that the things that are in your head when you look at your partner and you're like, wow, they really look good in their underwear or they look like they've been working out. Like, say those things, let them know that you desire them and you're still interested, even though it's, you know, it's kind of hard to say those things. It feels weird to say them out loud for some people. And I'm kind of like that. But I was always thinking them and. But people need to hear that. There's nothing wrong wrong with that. It's. I think it's natural and human to want to feel desired. Not just loved and appreciated, but, like, desired. Like, someone wants you, you know, they can't wait to be with you. That energy, wow. It's powerful. And I have to say, I really like it and I look forward to having more of it.
- [31:13]
Kathy
Oh, my God. You get to have it whenever you want. I mean, Esther Perrell talks about cheating very much in the way that you're talking about. She talks all about how most of the time, that's what it's about. A lot of times P.E. it's something that's lacking in the one person or they're just, you know, they want to feel alive again, you know, and it. What it brings to the table. Have you read a lot? Like, have you read her stuff on cheating?
- [31:33]
Natalie Davis
Love her. I've read her two books, and I think it's State of Affairs is where she talks about cheating a lot. Yep. And I like how she interviews people like the women that have these long term affairs with married men. And that is super interesting to me because I have. I know some people Like I'm not a fan of cheating as someone who's been cheated on, but also a thing I didn't appreciate is that the woman, and it's not always the woman, but it seems like that's what you read about. Mostly there's the married couple. The husband is cheating with a single woman. And that single woman feels so desired because that man in her mind is choosing her.
- [32:17]
Kathy
Right, right.
- [32:18]
Natalie Davis
He's risking this relationship.
- [32:20]
Kathy
Interesting.
- [32:20]
Natalie Davis
Choosing to have this, you know, exciting, risky encounter and that makes her feel valuable and, you know, special and, and, and even there doesn't necessarily have to be an expectation that he's going to leave the wife because if he left the wife, then you've taken away that part of the equation. That risky and fun and exciting.
- [32:43]
Kathy
Yeah.
- [32:43]
Natalie Davis
And that was a window into cheating that I hadn't thought about because as someone who had been cheated on, I thought, oh, I would never do that. Like how horrible. I mean, especially if somebody knows you and they know that you have a kid and a family and that they would participate in something like that. But some people need that excitement and go about it, in my opinion. And not the most honest way. I mean I, you know, that is not attractive to me. I'm not saying I couldn't never possibly find myself in that situation, but I definitely prefer things to be honest and open. And there are plenty of people who participate in affairs. So it's, it's kind of part of our way of life.
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Kathy
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Natalie Davis
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- [34:23]
Natalie Davis
And I think Esther Perel says, you know, sometimes this is good for the marriage and maybe the wife knows on some level and the husband is getting what he needs in one place and getting other things he needs in his marriage and maybe it keeps his marriage stable. You know, in other cultures having a Mistress is just married. Yeah.
- [34:42]
Kathy
France, Italy.
- [34:43]
Natalie Davis
The wife knows and she's like, well, you know, as long as you give me what I want and we are good together and you come for birthdays and anniversaries. If you have once a week with your mistress, you know, then fine, get that out of your system and have the thing that you need. But I think the woman should also be doing it.
- [35:01]
Kathy
Yeah, there, there you go. You take it that one step further. Right. That's a little bit more progressive. I, you know, what are the stories of like, you know, all these people once you got into the poly world and started meeting partners yourself and getting to know your husband's partners, like what are their back stories?
- [35:19]
Natalie Davis
They are varied. So in, so with our relationship, the, the, the first person that he cheated with was a single person.
- [35:31]
Kathy
Right.
- [35:32]
Natalie Davis
And also that was a person who was moving to Europe at a certain point, like several months later. So in his mind it was like, this is a very limited affirmation and it'll be over and it won't really, you know, threaten my marriage. So his mind that was, you know, had some, some boundaries on it. And the other person that's in the book, she was married, I guess not very happy in her relationship, so. But not Polly. And when her husband found out, that was the end of their marriage, but not the end of ours. And then after we got kind of on a more honest basis and we were talking about this and going into non monogamy together, his first kind of long term girlfriend when he got back from being deployed, when we both were exploring this independently, looking for our own dating relationships, she had really only had poly relationships. That's just how it turned out. I think her first long term boyfriend already had a long term partner when they met. And then her second relationship was the same thing that was poly. So she, even though she was much younger than me, was very experienced at poly.
- [36:42]
Kathy
Yeah.
- [36:42]
Natalie Davis
And had always been in poly relationships. And then another partner after that that he had was also had a nesting partner. And we knew not a lot of the same people. A lot of our interest overlapped. And so those two were pretty, you know, healthy and open and honest. And then when he was dated the woman who had only been poly, I started a relationship with a married man who was poly. They were, you know, maybe just a couple years into it, his wife had a boyfriend and he was dating and then started dating me and we became more serious, like kind of had a weekly standing date. And I have dated several married men, which I kind of like There's a stability to that.
- [37:29]
Kathy
Yeah.
- [37:30]
Natalie Davis
I don't worry so much that when I date a single guy, if he is looking eventually for marriage and children, then, you know, it's not going to happen. It can't be. You know, I don't know how long it will last. Although I did date a single guy for like seven years. We had a couple on and offs and he was. And he's poly. But, you know, I think he'll, you know, we, I think we broke up well, for a lot of reasons. But he was exploring having monogamous relationship and that's sort of what that happens a lot because on the dating sites, men will say they're non monogamous, but they're just non monogamous until they find their monogamous person interesting.
- [38:10]
Kathy
Really?
- [38:11]
Natalie Davis
Yeah. So I try to be very upfront when on these dating sites because it's kind of hard to parse. Sometimes people say non monogamous. But does that mean poly? What does that really mean?
- [38:19]
Kathy
And I think there's a big difference between non monogamous and poly. Right. I was, it was interesting because my friend Adam, who's been on my show, he wrote a book and he was very non monogamous. He wound up on Dan Savage show and he was calling him a poet.
- [38:30]
Natalie Davis
Oh, is that who he wrote Seek the Wrist?
- [38:32]
Kathy
Yeah, yeah. And he was calling that one very good book. Oh, yeah. Oh, you read it? Oh, I have to tell him.
- [38:37]
Natalie Davis
I listen. Yeah, no, he gave me the. I bought the book and I messaged him. I said, hey, I heard you on Dan's Average. I bought your book. He said, I already bought your book. Sent me the audiobook. So I listened to him tell the story, which I always love for memoirs. And I just finished it last week.
- [38:52]
Kathy
Yeah, yeah, it's great, right? Yeah. He was on my show like once or twice and now we became friends because he helped me write my book. And then I, you know, now he's like a co host on a lot of episodes and stuff. And he was on dance. And I'm like, why is Dan Savage calling you a pud? Like, like you were never polyamorous? And I'm like, I don't understand. You know, I never listened to Dan Savage's show because I would have never done mine if I listened to him because he's so good and well spoken and amazing that I would have been too intimidated. I remember listening to him very early on. I'm like, oh my God, I can't listen to this. I would never feel Good about myself. So I don't really, you know, and I was like, Dan Savage, the most brilliant man out there. He's like, you know, the, you know, he's like, the end all be all to me in my. In what I do. And I'm like, how is he getting it wrong? I'm like, why is he calling you a pud? Like, there's nothing polyamory about you. And I think that there's a very big difference between polyamorous people and non monogamous people. You know, I mean, his story was not polyamory at all.
- [39:47]
Natalie Davis
Right, right.
- [39:47]
Kathy
Do you listen to Dan Savage a lot to know why he. He does that?
- [39:51]
Natalie Davis
Oh, well, you know, Dan likes to come up with new words.
- [39:54]
Kathy
Yeah.
- [39:55]
Natalie Davis
Which.
- [39:55]
Kathy
But Paulie is not a new word.
- [39:58]
Natalie Davis
No, but the.
- [39:59]
Kathy
So the.
- [39:59]
Natalie Davis
The mud and the pud. So probably under duress.
- [40:02]
Kathy
He was a mud.
- [40:03]
Natalie Davis
In Adam's case, he was kind of like non monogamous under duress because his girlfriend, like had over probably over a thousand.
- [40:11]
Kathy
Oh, yeah, I had her on my show.
- [40:14]
Natalie Davis
But they were. From reading the. The book, the impression I got was they weren't relationships. They were a lot of one offs or, you know, orgies or experiences or sex clubs, which is definitely an open relationship. Non monogamous, but she wasn't having relationships. And when I think of polyamory, I think of more of it being relationships. But I don't think Dan had a word for non monogamous under duress. So he just said. He said pud. When he said it to me, I was like, kind of offended at first. I never heard the word. But I'm like, oh, this is Dan Savage. He likes to. He likes to think of new words like monogamish.
- [40:49]
Kathy
Yeah, I like it.
- [40:50]
Natalie Davis
I love it. Yeah. But yeah, so I think the clip he used was. Was when I said, you know, thank you for cheating, you know, and I became a pud. And then I became, you know, embracing. I don't know what the word is for polyamorous.
- [41:04]
Kathy
Yeah.
- [41:05]
Natalie Davis
After experience or something. But yeah, I mean, and that's great that I found my own way. And there's has to be like a trigger. So, you know, maybe younger generations, they talk about this at the beginning of their relationships with it, which is great. But, you know, I'm Gen X and I grew up not really knowing about this, even though it was there. So there wasn't a discussion that we had. And if we had had a discussion, you know, back in the 80s about non monogamy or polyamory, there Wasn't even the word polyamory back then. I would have said, excuse me, I'm not interested. Move along. And we never would have fallen in love and built this life together. So. So it's something to think about. And, you know, you can bring it up at different parts in your relationship, but if you wait until somebody is super unhappy, that's not the best time. But sometimes that's just naturally when it happens. And that's why these couples end up in therapy, because they're not prepared for it and they haven't. Hadn't been talking about their expectations and feelings all along. You know, we get married and we assume monogamy, but do we talk about it? And what does monogamy mean? Does that mean you can't have. Have a friend of the opposite sex? Does that mean you can't hug somebody or go on a bike ride with them? Does that mean it's okay to kiss somebody? Is that our definition of monogamy? Like every. It can be. It can be defined differently. Is it, you know, if you text somebody from work, are you cheating on me? You know, we don't talk about that until it happens.
- [42:38]
Kathy
Yeah, no, I know. I mean, I always say that because everyone, like, is. Is so irritated by all the labels out there. And I don't need a label now. I'm in my 50s, you know, but I. I'm like, I wish all those labels existed when I was younger. I think labels are great, especially for people at a certain time in their life. Because when I was younger, there were labels. It was. You were, you know, married or single. You were straight or gay. You know what I mean? You were monogamous or you were nothing. Like, you know, there was. There was a couple boxes. And I knew for sure at a very young age. I. I didn't fit into any of them. I could never imagine being attracted to one person my whole life. I mean, to me, it was the most ridiculous thing. And I had no pressure to get married and do what everyone else did. I didn't care about that ever. So I never did. It just wasn't for me. And I lived my. I would. On my deathbed, I will look back and be so happy. I lived my life the way I did and had all the experiences that did. But I gotta say, when I was younger, I was a very. I was like. I mean, the younger girls are much more like me now. They don't want to get married. They're not. You know what I mean? I had a kid when I was 46. They, they, they're doing whatever they want, like. But in my day it was very much like abnormal, you know what I mean? And I, and I, I would sleep with three guys at the same time. They all knew about each other. I liked two people at the same time. I think I would have been a lot happier if I was and feel a lot less, quote, unquote, weird or abnormal, you know, if these kinds of alternative relationships existed. You know, I was thrown out of three high schools and I was put in like, in an alternative high school. And I remember my grandmother was the only one that understood me. She said, you know what, Kathy? There's not like you, the one thing that's created and everyone has to follow it. You know what I mean? There's, there's, there needs to be other ways.
- [44:14]
Natalie Davis
You had a grandmother.
- [44:15]
Kathy
Yeah, she was very cool and she was the only one that got that, like, I didn't fit into any regular boxes, but there needed to be these. And the high school I went put in alternative actually was the only reason why I ever graduated, that it was there, you know, but everyone seems to try to fit into these, like, very small boxes. And now I think it's so great because there's so many more, but because there is all these people that are alive that didn't, you know, they weren't born in this generation or in, you know, the one that's happening now or even 20 years ago. Like, you're gonna get people that are gonna give you a lot of like, slack because of what you're into. Like, you know, like you say, like, why is poly a threat to people? Why do people care so much? Why are people coming after you for putting your story out? You know what I mean? It just doesn't make any sense.
- [45:02]
Natalie Davis
Well, in this country, anything that has to do with sex, I know, like this puritanic. I mean, and you know, when you were growing up and, and you were dating more than one person. Like, I didn't even know that was an option.
- [45:15]
Kathy
I'm like, right, I know.
- [45:16]
Natalie Davis
And I didn't, I wasn't dissatisfied because I just didn't know. I'm like, okay, eventually, you know, I didn't date that much in high school. School. My dad's like, oh, when you go to college, you'll find more like minded people. You'll, you know, just don't worry about it so much. And I get to college and I'm not like looking for anybody. I'm just living my life, you know, I'm studying, I'm on my own. And I meet this guy and I'm like, wow. Like, he's pretty cool. And we really connect. And I didn't plan to fall in love when I was 18 or 19. I mean, goodness, no. I would. Like, I was going to go to law school, all this stuff, and I still was going to do all that.
- [45:51]
Kathy
Right.
- [45:52]
Natalie Davis
But now I had this person who was really important to me and. But I hadn't had a lot of experience, and I. I came up to D.C. to go to law school and I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna look around and see what else is out here. There's all kind of people from everywhere that I'm going to school with, a lot of smart people, a lot of interesting people, and. And I didn't see anybody that I cared about more that challenged me, that cared about me, and I felt the same, same way. So I felt good about that connection. It just kind of happened when I was younger than I anticipated. But to be honest, when you're in a school environment, you have this pool of people who are around your same age. They are interested in the same things. You know, you connect. You see them, you know, every day, maybe. And it's a, like, very rich environment to find people that you connect with. And after you leave that environment, it's a lot harder. So in some ways, I feel I'm fortunate that I found somebody then.
- [46:50]
Kathy
Right.
- [46:50]
Natalie Davis
But because we were young, we were still figuring ourselves out a bit. We didn't know that, I think at the time how much we would grow or. I didn't realize how much he might grow in a direction that I was not even aware of or be open to things that I hadn't thought about. But I. I respect and admire his flexible mindset in that way, that he was open to exploring new paths and where left to my own devices, I liked more safety and security and I'm not so much of a risk taker. And being pushed out of your comfort zone sometimes is a really good thing. Yeah. You didn't even know it.
- [47:28]
Kathy
He gave you more credit than you gave yourself, like you said, you know what I mean? Like, he on some level knew who he had as a partner. That when push came to shove, I mean, you did open up. You were as open, as hit as him. Right. On some level, or else you would have left him, him, you know, and that's the reason why I think, you know, people do separate at certain times. One person just evolves into something and the other person isn't on that path anymore. You know what I mean? But you chose to go with him, so you were a very open person. And I think, you know what I find on my show because I talk to people of all different ages, and I think what people don't understand is like, what you're into and what you're open to changes over time. We're not like, born with all of our kinks and that we're into, and it just stays that way. You know what I mean? Would you have ever thought you'd have all these partners and be who I was at, you know, 22 at your age? You know what I mean? That's like the life that you're living. But you are, and you're into it now, you know, and, and everyone, like, I mean, it's not like a fixed thing, you know?
- [48:28]
Natalie Davis
No. And we still, even though we're open and we date other people, he still, he has different interests that he explores with other partners where his interests align. And I love that for him and for me. Because in a relationship you make compromises.
- [48:43]
Kathy
Yes.
- [48:44]
Natalie Davis
And that's, I mean, that's okay. Like, oh, I want to see this movie maybe 100% and maybe I, the other person wants to see it 50%. Wouldn't it be great if they went to see the movie with somebody who was like, just as much of a Star wars fan as they were and they would love the experience more? And you, you could say, you know, I'll just wait till it comes out on a streaming service because I'm not that much into it.
- [49:05]
Kathy
Yeah.
- [49:06]
Natalie Davis
And I can do that now.
- [49:07]
Kathy
Yeah. And that's good for both of you.
- [49:09]
Natalie Davis
And.
- [49:10]
Kathy
But it's also better for you, isn't it also better for you? Because then you don't have to do that. I remember I had a woman on Jasmine and her and her husband open up their relationship just to be non monogamous at first. But eventually they started playing solo because four way connection was really hard. And then once they started playing solo, her guy started to fall for one of his solo partners and they were seeking therapy and they work through it. And she came to realize, and now she has her own partner and her husband has her own partner. And she just came to realize that, you know, you're not gonna be everything. Like there's not one person that could be everything for each other. Right. For your, you know. Right.
- [49:49]
Natalie Davis
That we, if we can't be everything to our partner, then we fail. So I had to deal with that. And I think a lot of women or people who have Faced infidelity from their partner, think, oh, I'm deficient and I have failed and I haven't met all of their needs. Well, are they meeting all of yours? I mean, come on, let's be honest.
- [50:06]
Kathy
Exactly.
- [50:07]
Natalie Davis
People take different actions in response to that. But it's so unfair to like load especially women up with that where we're always trying to please and meet expectations and be the perfect mother and wife and career person and community activists and all the things, things where it's perfectly fine for a man just to go and be successful at work and then he's successful, like that's all he has to be good at. And you know, hopefully that's changing a bit. But still, women put a lot of this guilt on themselves and also historically and society wise and now in this, you know, current world that we live in, which some people are trying to take the right of women to vote away and if you don't have children, you're not a real person. So we have to be very vigilant.
- [50:53]
Kathy
Yeah.
- [50:54]
Natalie Davis
And not beat ourselves up and give ourselves grace. You know, we are doing an exemplary job.
- [51:02]
Kathy
How did your family feel and how do they feel like, how do they feel in the beginning and is it any different now?
- [51:09]
Natalie Davis
I, well, my sister knew from an early stage I just have one sibling and she was like, I just want you to be happy. She, she was fine with it. And my mom died when I was young and I. So that wasn't an issue. Right. My dad was older and not didn't need to know.
- [51:30]
Kathy
Right.
- [51:31]
Natalie Davis
But, but I, I think he would have said because he's always been like this, I want you to be happy. And I think I was lucky that that's what my family is like. And when I did come out, especially with this book, you know, everybody knows about it now. Some of my relatives just asked about it, but nobody was judgy, nobody didn't want to have me over anymore. Some people were more interested in it than others. But I think also when I talk about being in a bubble, I'm fortunate that I have a pretty open minded family and I know a lot of people don't. People's experiences have been different and I, like, I haven't had bad experience. Most experience, bad experience are just like the comments from people that I don't know. I think also the fact that I don't come from a strict conservative religious upbringing helped a lot.
- [52:25]
Kathy
Yeah, for sure.
- [52:26]
Natalie Davis
So people that come from like fundamentalist Christian background or very strict Catholic background or something, that's you know, very dogmatic. And this is a sin and this isn't. Or, or, you know, this will get you excommunicated. And, and I didn't have that so much that my faith background is not like that. So I think that is a big part of it. I didn't have. I don't think my parents would have been ashamed of me or embarrassed. I don't, I don't carry that kind of religious guilt.
- [52:56]
Kathy
Yeah.
- [52:56]
Natalie Davis
And that was very helpful. And I think people that come from a different religious background, it's probably harder. It's probably harder for themselves because they feel like they're being wicked or evil or something. And I didn't feel that right. I felt it was more about my relationship with my husband. What does this mean about our relationship? And then also just the public at large. I have a small child. I don't want him to be ostracized. I don't want someone to call child and protective services. And, you know, I didn't want to open that Pandora's box until he was older. Until I was no longer working at the Department of Justice, you know, I didn't have those variables that I had to worry about. And now I can be as open as I want to be and so many people can't. And so that's why I am. So I say, you know, the people who can be out there and talking about non monogamy and showing a public face and showing that they are a responsible person and they are just choosing to live this different way that helps to move the ball forward, just like anyone who is in what's perceived as some kind of alternative lifestyle. And if people get to know you and go, well, that's. They're a good person and, you know, they bring me my newspaper when it gets delivered to their house by mistake and they watch my cat when I'm out of town and you know, if they're going to have a party, they let me know if it's loud or whatever. You know, they're good neighbors and they buy Girl Scout cookies for my kid and just a regular person. And then they find out, oh, you're also, you're also non monogamous. You're like, oh, okay. Well, you have this foundation of being a good person. So this is not a big deal. And this has happened to us. Just we moved into a new house about five years ago and we present little because we have these three adults living together and some people might not know what the relationship is and, and they like, is that a Relative that lives with you guys is that kid or a friend. And if somebody asks, we're like, you know, my husband will say, oh well, we're polyamorous and that's my other partner. Yeah, just as simple as that. And every time, at least to our faces, it's like, oh, okay, yeah. You know, and then it's not like they didn't talk to us afterwards or they didn't want to associate with us. So I think that's how we normalize it. We put a face on it and act like it's not that big a deal. Like when I'm out in the world, I try to use words like metamor or my boyfriend or my husband's other partner. And in some situations it's easier than others. I mean, for a while before my book came out, the gym was my very, was my safe space and I had all my lady friends and, and we would save mats for each other and, and talk. And I was kind of reluctant to bring this up because you're just having a conversation like what did you do over the weekend?
- [55:38]
Kathy
Yeah, yeah. How do you bring it up?
- [55:39]
Natalie Davis
Yeah, you know, I went, I went to a concert with my husband and my metamor.
- [55:44]
Kathy
Yeah.
- [55:44]
Natalie Davis
And you're like, do they know what that means? Do I wanna. What if they don't like me anymore? And I, and I love coming to the gym and this is my happy place and do I want to jeopardize that? And sometimes you just have to take a risk. And so I did gradually do that and if people asked me what that meant, I told them. And I'm sure some people are like, don't think that's as cool as others. But nobody stops speaking to me.
- [56:07]
Kathy
They didn't move the mat, they didn't move their mats from you.
- [56:10]
Natalie Davis
And I had like half a dozen people from my gym come to one of my book talks and it was so lovely. It was, I was so touched. They were very supportive, very sweet.
- [56:19]
Kathy
Yeah, that's amazing. I teach my 10 year old son, like just so you know, like people, if they think about you or they're thinking negatively about something, we all think like, you know, it's like they think about it for like 5, 10 minutes and then they go back to thinking about themselves. Nobody is gives a, about anybody else for that long. You know what I mean? People are thinking about their most, you know, interesting person, which is themselves at all times. And so anyone that is, is like something, something's wrong with them. Those people that are making those rude Comments to you and everything. This is not the norm. You know, people don't really care. But why don't you give a shout out to your book to. Do you have a website to your Instagram, whatever you want to promote? Because listen, your story is like killer. Like people need to read through it because there's so many layers. There is a beginning, middle, and an end. And I think it's like really great.
- [57:08]
Natalie Davis
Thank you. Well, it's called saying yes. My Adventures in Polyamory by Natalie Davis. You can get it wherever you get books right now it's in hardback, ebook and audiobook. And I narrate the audiobook, so. And people have said that I don't sound horrible. So if that's your thing. And I'm everywhere, pretty much as Natalie Davis Adventures. My website is nataliedavisadventures.com my Instagram is also Natalie Davis Adventures. Those are the places that I am most. I'm on Instagram. I'm. I'm sorry. On Medium, which is where I started writing slice of life stories that are more current. I started writing those during the pandemic. And that's on Medium. And I'm Natalie Davis Adventures on Medium. I also edit Polyamory today, which has poly stories. So if you're interested in that and all my Medium stories after. If you're not a member, after the first paragraph, there's a free link that you can, you can look at those. I'm a website has links to other podcasts I've been on, articles that I've written for the Post or the Daily Mail. And there's a downloadable cheat sheet on nonviolent communication which is really helpful about having productive non violent communications about relationships with your partner in nonviolent communication was something that I had to learn and it's super helpful in any kind of communication that you have to have at work, with your family, with your relationship. So I think it's a, it's a nice little cheat sheet about how to have productive, non violent communications.
- [58:43]
Kathy
And that's on your website?
- [58:45]
Natalie Davis
Yeah, it's downloadable. Just Natalie davisadventures.com it's kind of at the end of the website. So that's just a little thing that my husband and I developed as part of a, a presentation that we did because I, I speak at conferences also.
- [58:58]
Kathy
Okay. So listen, thanks so much. I don't remember how I challenged you. I just like, I don't, I don't remember challenging judging you because I know that I dig deep.
- [59:05]
Natalie Davis
Brutally honest. Yeah, he cheated on you twice and.
- [59:09]
Kathy
Yeah, well, isn't that what most people would be thinking? But I, I admire that. There's nothing wrong with that. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just, I'm just a real person. But I mean, it's like I was going along for the ride. I was, like, obsessed with your story. And I don't remember, I'm not like, I don't remember challenging you in a negative way. I like, though, to get that. Yeah, I like to get.
- [59:30]
Natalie Davis
I like to. To be challenged.
- [59:31]
Kathy
Oh, okay, good. Because I like to get to the, you know, the depth of stuff. And I just remember your story being so killer. So, you know, people should go buy your book. I'll put a link to it in the description. And thanks so much for calling in. I love talking to you.
- [59:42]
Natalie Davis
Thank you so much, Kathy. And good luck with your book as well.
- [59:44]
Kathy
Thank you. Bye, Natalie.
- [59:46]
Natalie Davis
Bye.
- [59:46]
Kathy
Bye.
- [59:48]
Natalie Davis
Understanding spiritual abuse and trauma is one thing. Knowing how to move forward is another. In the Shattered Soul, trauma therapist Colleen Ramser walks alongside survivors, offering guidance, practical tools, and hope for healing. Through both professional insight and her own story, she helps readers begin the journey of reconnecting to themselves their faith and their sense of peace. The Shattered Soul is now available wherever books are sold.
- [60:17]
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- [61:08]
Kathy
of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month. Equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms. Okay, I just want to tell you before you go that my book, it's called Strictly Anonymous Confession Secret Sex Lives of Total Strangers is now available not only in paperback and ebook, but you can pre order the audiobook. It's still not going to be out till August 25, but you can pre order it. The book is basically 17 different stories taken from my show. I kind of picked one story from each category that I talk about on my show. Like there's a hobby hot wife story, there's a cuck queen story, there's a cuck story, there's a gang bang girl story. Like I said, 17 stories. And they're all told in the third person and they're all true. I took the interview and rewrote it in the third person. And I wouldn't really call it like a total erotica book. Think like Penthouse Letters. It's more direct. It's not so over the top like erotica. I don't really like that kind of vibe. Right. But these are true stories, 17 of them. They're really short chapters, easy read. You could read, you know, one or two and then skip around. You could read the whole book. It's available in ebag format, paperback format, and finally the audiobook is available coming out August 25th, but you could pre order it now. And if you buy my book in any format or pre order it, I will throw in a couple complimentary link to my Discord. My Discord does not disappoint. Okay? There's no way you get into my Discord any other way than getting the link from me. Okay? I give it to people who buy my book. There's tons of people in there. Everybody shares content with each other and that's what you get to do there. You could post your own pictures and videos. There's tons of channels. We have lots of contests where you could win a lot of money. It's a super fun place to be. It's a total little strictly anonymous community and you will love it. I will be giving anyone who buys my book access to my Discord. It's private. Like I said. All you gotta do is email me a screenshot of your purchase. Whether you did the audiobook, the ebook or the paperback. Send it to me at strictly anonymous podcast gmail.com that's strictly anonymous podcast gmail.com and I will send send you the link to Discord. So anyway, thanks so much for tuning in. This is the Strictly Anonymous podcast. Strictly Anonymous podcast.