Improving Your Metabolism With Dr. Mike Nelson

Summary

Stronger with Don Saladino

Episode: Improving Your Metabolism With Dr. Mike Nelson

Date: July 14, 2026
Guest: Dr. Mike Nelson (PhD, Exercise Physiology)

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Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Don Saladino sits down with Dr. Mike Nelson—engineer-turned-exercise physiologist and expert on metabolic health—to discuss what it really means to "improve your metabolism." The conversation breaks down the concept of metabolic flexibility, debunks long-standing myths, and shares actionable strategies for boosting metabolic health in both athletes and everyday people. The episode is grounded, practical, and peppered with relatable stories and hard-earned wisdom from both host and guest.

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Key Discussion Points

Defining Metabolic Flexibility

[01:54–06:30]

• Dr. Mike Nelson’s Three-Part Definition:
  • Ability to efficiently use carbohydrates
  • Ability to efficiently use fats
  • Ability to switch back and forth between them based on energy demands
  • “When you look at an actual healthy metabolism, it's the ability to use both and to switch back and forth between them within the right context.” —Dr. Mike Nelson [02:21]
• Personal Anecdotes:
  • Don describes intuitively shifting between carb- and fat-heavy phases in his career, feeling benefits from each, illustrating metabolic flexibility in action.
  • Dr. Nelson notes how high-level endurance athletes sometimes lose fat oxidation capacity, which can be restored through periodized nutrition and fasted training.
• Practical Implication:
  • Adapting nutrition depending on training (e.g., higher carb on lifting/interval days, higher fat on aerobic/low-carb days) can promote metabolic flexibility.

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Carb Cycling for Performance and Health

[06:16–07:44]

• Why Switch Fuel Sources?
  • Carbohydrates give fast energy for high-intensity activities, fats are optimal for lower intensity and endurance.
  • Analogy: Hybrid car—electric for acceleration (carbs), gas for distance (fats).
  • "You want the flexibility to unconsciously shift to use the right fuel at the right time.” —Dr. Mike Nelson [07:24]
• Polarity in Nutrition Trends:
  • Dangers of extremism (e.g., all-carb, all-fat diets)—best health and performance comes from context-appropriate flexibility.

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Simple At-Home Metabolic Flexibility Tests

[07:44–09:47]

• The “Two Pop-Tart Test” (Carb Use):
  • Eat two Pop-Tarts (70g glucose). If you can function well, you’re probably efficient at using carbs. If you crash, you’re not.
  • “Could you eat two Pop-Tarts for breakfast and feel okay for the next couple hours?...I would argue you’re probably not good at [carb] use if you get brain foggy.” —Dr. Mike Nelson [08:07]
• The 20-Hour Fast (Fat Use):
  • See if you can complete a 19-20 hour fast and function normally—if yes, you’re likely fat-adapted.

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Demystifying Intermittent Fasting

[09:47–14:44]

• Shifting Definitions:
  • Fasting regimens range from 10 hours (just sleep!) to multi-day fasts.
  • “Yeah, that’s called sleep.” —Dr. Mike Nelson on the 10-hour fasting “trend” [10:51]
• What Does the Data Actually Say?
  • There’s no magic in fasting—it’s more about what is practical and sustainable.
  • Sometimes it’s easier for clients to not eat at all for a set period than to limit calories/food types.
  • Compliance is the biggest benefit fasting offers.
• Fasting Pitfalls:
  • Most people mess up the feeding window (e.g., fail to hit calorie, protein, or fiber needs).
  • Data suggests protein can be front-loaded: eating a large amount in one meal may maintain muscle protein synthesis for 10–12 hours (“John Tourmalin study”: eat 100g protein at once) [14:17].
  • If you’re strict and hit your needs in the window, most data suggest it’s “probably fine”; lack of superiority or detriment in studies.

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Daily Habits for Metabolic Health

[15:25–16:54]

• Top Recommendations:
  • Sleep: Essential and most challenging to change; many people resist lifestyle sacrifices to improve it.
  • Protein Intake: Often easier to change—“Did you know you could eat more of something and get leaner?...If you eat lean protein, you can eat as much as you want of it.” —Dr. Mike Nelson [16:30]
    • Overfeeding studies (Jose Antonio) show no additional fat gain from huge protein intakes.

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The Real Story on High Protein Diets

[16:54–20:19]

• How High Is Too High?
  • No evidence for harm from high protein diets in healthy people.
  • Extreme case: Study participants consuming up to 400g/day; no signs of kidney dysfunction (“protein seekers” have larger, but healthy, kidneys).
  • Most muscle-building benefits capped at ~0.7g–1g per lb of body weight but body comp may improve at higher intakes.
• Bloodwork as Proof:
  • If tests are normal, no problem continuing high-protein, but ease back down once goals are met out of conservatism.

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Debunking Metabolism Myths

[20:19–23:16]

• Biggest Myth: “My metabolism is broken.”

  • In reality, most people’s resting metabolic rates are much higher than they think (even in anorexics, rarely below 800–1,000 calories/day).
  • “The average female still thinks 1200 calories a day is what I need…The average bro thinks 1800.” —Dr. Mike Nelson [21:58]

• Second Biggest: “Metabolism drops with age.”

  • Minimal decline up to age 60 if activity levels are maintained; drop-off is mostly explained by less movement, not aging per se.

• Activity Matters more than Age:

  • Don’s NYC stories illustrate how simply living an active lifestyle (high step counts) profoundly impact metabolism.

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Dieting, Reverse Diets, and Metabolic Downregulation

[23:16–28:21]

• NEAT Drops with Dieting:
  • When calories are slashed (especially in physique sports), non-exercise activity thermogenesis (“NEAT”) unconsciously drops.
  • Survival mechanism: “Your body is going, ‘holy crap, this idiot just slashed his calories, we better conserve movement.’” —Dr. Mike Nelson [25:41]
• Should You Reverse Diet?
  • Ideally, return to maintenance calories quickly after a show/extreme diet, unless the psychological impact of rapid weight regain is too stressful.
  • Slow reverses leave you underfed, prolonging high-stress conditions and unproductive periods. Focus should be on individual psychological readiness.

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Practical Tips for Improving Metabolism

[29:59–31:15]

• Dr. Nelson’s Cheat Sheet:
  • Protein: 1g/lb body weight as a simple target.
  • Increase NEAT: “Actually go for a walk.”
  • Use activity trackers for accountability.
  • Sleep: Foundational for metabolic health.
  • Training: Focus on adaptation, not calorie burn. Enjoy movement for fun—try new sports, prioritize play.
  • “Don’t convert your lens to ‘training is just burning calories.’ I think that’s the biggest mistake people make.” —Dr. Mike Nelson [30:29]
• Cardio/Myth Busting:
  • Most people obsess over calorie burn and heart rates without understanding context; better to focus on long-term adaptation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fads & Extremes:
  • “Everyone wants to go polarized one direction or the other…but when you look at an actual healthy metabolism, it’s the ability to use both and to switch back and forth between them within the right context.” —Dr. Mike Nelson [02:21]
• On Intermittent Fasting Hype:
  • “Yeah, that’s called sleep.” —Dr. Mike Nelson [10:51]
• On Protein:
  • “If you eat lean protein, you can eat as much as you want of it.” —Dr. Mike Nelson [16:30]
• On Metabolism Myths:
  • “The biggest one I would say is most people…‘my metabolism is broken’. And I’m like, damn, shut down. What happened to it?” —Dr. Mike Nelson [20:51]
• On Activity:
  • “How about you move and do more things like that?...Just the total amount of movement, just the energy, right? So total daily energy expenditure was higher back then.” —Dr. Mike Nelson [22:13]
• On NEAT & Dieting:
  • “NEAT is very much an unconscious thing…your body is going, ‘holy crap, we’re survival-based…we better conserve movement.’” —Dr. Mike Nelson [25:41]
• On Practical Advice:
  • “Training is more for the adaptation we want. Don’t convert your lens to training is just burning calories.” —Dr. Mike Nelson [30:29]

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Recommended Action Steps (Cliff Notes)

Per Dr. Nelson:

• 1g/lb protein daily
• Prioritize NEAT—move more, walk, stay active
• Use trackers for steps/movement
• Fix sleep as much as possible
• Train for adaptation, not only for calorie expenditure
• Enjoy movement (sports/hobbies)
• Resistance training is important, but not the only tool

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Learn More

• Dr. Mike Nelson:
  • Instagram: @drmiketnelson
  • Newsletter: miketnelson.com/newsletter

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This episode is a lively, myth-busting masterclass on what really impacts metabolic health—and a great listen for anyone overwhelmed by “expert” opinions or fad solutions.

Transcript

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[Dr. Mike Nelson]

I oh, let's go. I oh, let's go.

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[Podcast Host]

All right, guys, welcome to Stronger. Today I have on Dr. Mike Nelson, an engineer turned exercise physiologist. Mike has his PhD in exercise physiology, a master's degree in biomechanics, and he has experience working with everyone from everyday fitness enthusiasts to elite performers. What I love most about you is your honesty and your directness. And I think we're in an industry right now where there's so much regurgitation, everyone's trying to come off like an expert. You have coaches in the business. There are 23 years old reading off a teleprompter and they. No, but they really don't have any business talking about what they're talking about. So you're one of the few that I look at and I say, thank God someone's up there holding things to a high standard. So thanks. Thanks for being on.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

[Podcast Host]

Love it. So today I want to kick off with the first topic that's going to be metabolic flexibility. So do me a favor and give your definition of metabolic flexibility.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

So metabolic flexibility has very simply just three components. So if you think of a spectrum, on the right side, how well your body can use carbohydrates. On the left side, how well you can use fat. Now, the third component is just simply how well can you switch back and forth between them? And as you know, been in fitness forever, everyone's one side or the other. Like you've lived through the keto craze where carbs are evil. We had the sugar diet. I don't even know that's a thing anymore. But everyone wants to go polarized one direction or the other. But when you look at an actual healthy metabolism, it's the ability to use both and to switch back and forth between them within the right context.

[Podcast Host]

Can you? So I know intuitively when I was in early on in my career and I never heard the term metabolic flexibility, I mean back I started in the space in 1999, I know, probably early 2000s. At a certain point during the year I was always more of. What would you consider it? More carb adapted in the sense of like my body does really well with a high level of carbs. But at some point during the year I would feel like that I needed to drop my carbs and raise my fats. And I would do that for not even a long period of time. It might have been four to six weeks, where suddenly my body got a bit leaner, all that brain fog lifted, some more mental clarity, I'm performing a little bit better. But then after six weeks I'd feel my body deflate, get flat, and then suddenly I was like, I need carbs. Right? Is that, was that my body intuitively telling me that that's what I needed or. I've never actually asked that question. You just made me think of it.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

I mean, I think it's probably intuitively what your body needed, right? Because we do know like I've seen metabolic heart data from high level half marathon person where even when you start at a low intensity, you've got the little card on. You're measuring everything that goes in and out. So it'll tell you amount of fat and amount of carbohydrates. They were never below what's called the crossover point, never below 50% use of fat, 50% use of carbs. So they were pushed almost entirely to the carbohydrate end of the spectrum. Now granted they were pretty competitive, but I wonder about their health from a long term standpoint. Even at low levels, if you can't downregulate and use fat, there's probably something going on. But we can train that, right? So one of the ways you can do that is fasted training, removing carbohydrates, things like that. And so when I work with some athletes, I feel like one of my jobs is to say, okay, here's what you want to do for performance and that's good, but here's the cost also of doing that. And it can be maximize some of your health parameters. Also at the same time, maybe we can, maybe we can't. So I would say in your case, you're probably intuitively saying, oh, wow, maybe I went a little bit too far on the carbohydrate side. I'm Losing some fat ability. So I'm gonna downregulate. I'm gonna do that for a while. Okay. Now I'm gonna come back and use carbohydrates, kind of like a periodized nutrition plan.

[Podcast Host]

But with, with athletes, considering it is performance, I mean that's, that's the main goal. Carbohydrates and fats are going to be, I don't want to say high, maybe that's the wrong term, but they are going to be slightly elevated. You're not going to.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Or are you going to just go higher in carbohydrates and lower in fats and then flip flop? I feel like that's more of a body composition approach. Or am I, or am I wrong there?

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Depends on the sport and depends on what you're trying to do.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Like I've seen some athletes that have a huge amount of carbohydrate intake and, and if we put them on low level exercise, fasted, they can still use fat really, really well. Now again, they're also running just a piss ton of calories and everything through their system. If you took the average American and did that, it's probably not going to end well. Right. Because their engine is so small, they're just not running that much fuel through it. So I think with athletes that's the thing that makes the biggest difference. And then also there was experiment where, you know, you hear about athletes going keto and like strength and power sports and performance kind of drops and they're like, oh, that wasn't the best idea. Right. You don't really have to go extreme. And so a simple thing for most people is Monday, Wednesday, Friday, maybe go a little higher carbohydrate, maybe do some weightlifting, maybe add your intervals on that day. Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, maybe a little bit lower carbohydrate, maybe a little bit more aerobic training. So you have half of the week you're air quote using carbs a little bit more. The other half you're using fat a little bit more. That kind of allows you to, to keep that happy medium. And with athletes you can push that pretty high and not compromise their performance.

[Podcast Host]

So in a way that's, it's kind of like carb cycling in a way.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yeah. Carb cycling approach, right? Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, so why, so explain why is it important for our bodies to be able to switch? Like why is it, is it just for more of an efficiency purpose of being able to use both fuel sources? I mean.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yeah, because you want the ability to use carbohydrates for high intense exercise with weightlifting, things like that, or what they call glycolytic, you're just running a lot of carbs through the system. And the reason for that is because of the rate at which you need to get energy to show up. So if you're doing something in a short compressed period of time, carbohydrates like per mole or per thing of energy only give you around. Depends what the exact numbers are. 28, 26 ATP fat will give you like three times that amount, like 106. But the issue is carbohydrates, you can get that energy much, much faster. So it's like if you got a hybrid car, if you want power, speed, acceleration, you want to use the electric engine, like you want to be pretty much all electric. If you want to go drive across the us you probably want to use gas. So they both have benefits. It depends on what you're trying to do. So if you're hanging out most of the time doing low level activity, you want to be using more fat as your main energy source for that because it's more efficient and you can get more ATP and may help with body comp, things like that. So it all depends on the context of what you're trying to do at that point. And you want the flexibility to sort of unconsciously shift to use the right fuel at the right time.

[Podcast Host]

How can you tell you're working with these athletes, how can you tell whether they're using fats or carbs efficiently?

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

In the lab you can use a metabolic heart, right? So little machine, you've done these a lot, VO2 max, different forms of tests. You breathe into the tube, it goes into the machine and it'll tell you, okay, you're using this many carbs, you're using this many fat. I have a converted my garage to a gym and I have a frigging metabolic heart just because I think it's fun. But most people don't have that technology. So if you say, okay, no technology, no finger pricks, no glucose, no bloods, no measurements at all. The rough test I use is on the carbohydrate end of the spectrum. I call it the two pop tart test, which gets me all sorts of hate mail from people. Could you eat two pop tarts for breakfast and feel okay for the next couple hours? Again, this doesn't mean there's anything magical about pop Tarts. It's just a food you can find that's probably bulletproof, that's going to last through many, many years. That's easy to find. It's 70 grams of basically glucose. And at once, if you take a nap under your table because you're super tired or you get brain foggy, you don't feel good, I would argue you're probably not good at taking in a lot of carbohydrates and using them that efficiently. Yeah, it doesn't mean you need to eat Pop Tarts for breakfast all the time. It's just a test.

[Podcast Host]

I got excited. I haven't had a Pop tart in like 30 years. Yeah, yeah, like a real Pop Tart, like toasted, one of those.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

And for some people, I'm like, okay, so have 80 grams of glucose from white rice or whatever, pick some high amount of glucose source. And then on the other end would be when you lower insulin, that's going to push your body to using more fat. So the best way to do that is a longer fast. So could you do like about a 19 to 20 hour fast? You know, have some electrolytes, have some fluid, no other calories, and you generally feel pretty good. You know, you're probably gonna be a little bit hungry, but you should be able to go through your normal workday. You should do most of your normal training because it's a single day. You're not doing this for long periods of time. And if you can do that, I would argue you're probably pretty good at using fat. So those are, again, the two extreme ends of the spectrum. And most of you are gonna be living somewhere in between.

[Podcast Host]

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[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yeah, that's called sleep.

[Podcast Host]

That's called sleep. I'm like, it's called the night of sleep. I wish I could still have. But like, what's your, what's your opinion on that? Where's the data point?

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yeah, it's so hard because the research is all across the board. Right. So you've got a five, two, you've got an every other day fast. Right. You've got the 24 hour fast. And now they even change the terminology of it. So even now when I say fasting people, you have to define what do you, what do you mean by that? What method of fasting are you doing? And overall, like, I would say that there's nothing that magical about fasting. I think a lot of the benefits have been overextended. And I first started doing fasting years ago after reading Brad Pilon's book Eat, Stop, Eat. I read that book and I thought, this is stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. This is so dumb. Like, why would anyone do this? But I thought, well, you know, I'll check into it. And so I pulled all the literature at that time trying to disprove it. I was like, oh well, maybe there is something to it. And so I started doing that just one day per week. And to my shock, people were more compliant by telling them not to eat for a set period of time than doing very low calorie approaches on a certain day. Sure, there's something, I don't know what it is. Even if you tell them to see protein and veggies all day, you eat and you start getting.

[Podcast Host]

It's easier not to eat for them, right?

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

It's easier not to eat. Right. So from a compliance standpoint, once you kind of build your way into it, I was surprised that it was actually relatively easy. And as you know, in the real world, like compliance is a big deal.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

And so for some people it was easier for them to take just one day per week. Let's just work you to a 19 to 24 hour fast. Let's just eat like a normal human the rest of the time. But it allowed them a little bit more freedom those other six days than two.

[Podcast Host]

But in the real world I felt like most people are screwing up the eight hour eating phase because if you're Going to go fast for 16. Isn't that like you have an eight hour window of opportunity now? Like you still have to think about hitting your total daily calories or you know, your fiber or your protein. Like there just becomes, in my eyes, there becomes so many variables now where you have eight hours to get all that in. And that's my next question is, do they need to get that all in or is that even an overrated thing? Do they just need to eat balanced meals? And they're fine. But if you're a 200 pound male consuming 120 grams of protein in an eight hour window, which is very doable, I mean that's 30 grams a meal times four, four meals. And that's, that's pushing it. I mean that's in eight hours, that's eating every two hours. Most people aren't going to do that. Or even three meals at 40 grams a meal. Most people aren't doing that. They're having a shake, they're having some nuts and seeds, they're having a big dinner and then I'm finding they're really under caloried. So what's your thought process on that?

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yeah, with the 128 or the 16 8. I agree. I've had some clients who came to me already doing that. They were successful so we just played with bumping their protein up. But I had some other clients where it was just like, oh, okay, so now you're just screwing up your eight hour window on top of not eating at all. Because they thought, oh well, because I was fasting, it's okay, like it's gonna somehow magically override these other eight hours. And I'm like, well it doesn't really work that way. Right. The cool part though is there's new data showing like with protein you might be able to front it. So what I would do in those cases if their protein was low, I try to get them at their first meal to eat as much protein as possible. Like the John Tourmalin study, they had people eat a hundred grams of protein. Right. And what they showed was for up to 12 hours, 10 or 12 hours Muscle protein synthesis. So the repair process was still running.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

So if you can get in enough, you're probably going to be okay. But like you said, with an eight hour window that becomes more challenging now because you've compressed that eating window. And so that's where I find that it again, you're back to okay, what works for you? Let's have you eat like a normal human. Here's some Things we want to see. And for some people it's easier for them to do that. But then the caveat is, yes, you still have to pay attention to those eight hours. It doesn't give you like a get out of jail free card to do whatever you want.

[Podcast Host]

What if you have someone fanatical where in the eight hour window, they're hitting their tdee, they're hitting their total daily energy expenditure and they're hitting their fiber. Do you have no problem with that? Does that suddenly eliminate any of your worry?

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

They're probably fine. I mean, the limited studies we have on that, um, there's a big one that just completed about a year ago that it's probably fine. Like the end of the studies show that it wasn't superior, it wasn't bad. But again, like you said, that's a controlled study. That's with, you know, hitting your protein targets, your fiber, that kind of stuff. And I've had some people come in who, you know, made a few tweaks and just because of their lifestyle, that worked better for them and they did fine.

[Podcast Host]

Talk to me about what are some daily habits that can help improve metabolic health.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

The big one, which is the hardest to do is sleep. So I have a thing called coaching leverage, which is the physiologic response times, the client's ability to change. And so early on I started reading all this stuff about sleep years ago and I'm like, I'm a smart monkey. I'm going to start teaching these people about sleep because look at all this physiologic impact. It's crazy. And after like even three clients, I wanted to put my head through a wall because at the end of the day, you're literally coming down to, yes, we can try to air quote, optimize your environment, but if, bro, if you're sleeping like four and a half hours a night, it doesn't matter how optimal your environment is. And then it comes down to almost a value judgment of, oh, so you're telling me I can't watch Netflix for two hours at night to relax before I go to bed? Yeah, kind of like, yeah, basically they're like, f you. I don't want to do this. You're stupid. This is dumb.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

And there was this big. The decline's ability to change was very hard. And so once I realized that, I was like, oh, let's talk about protein. Like, oh, you want better body count?

[Podcast Host]

Cool.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Did you know you could eat more of something and get leaner? I'm like, what? You're telling me I can eat more food and get leaner, I'm like, yeah, if you eat lean protein, you can eat as much as you want of it. You know, Jose Antonio has done those overfeeding studies. Just huge amounts of protein, no additional gain in fat. And to them that was kind of shocking. Takes a little bit of education, takes a little bit of effort. But that was a way easier starting point than giving them lectures about sleep all the time.

[Podcast Host]

Right, Right. I mean sleep just takes, I mean it takes so much time to be able to adjust that. Right.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Some people just don't have that type of patience. Now getting into the huge amount of protein, I've seen it, I've seen because you know everyone's promoting the gram per pound of body weight. And then I'm always questioning, well if it's a gram and it's total protein, how much of that is animal protein and how much of that is the protein through nuts and seeds and plants and where's your real level? Like I've gone as high as, you know, for a 210, 215 pound man, I've consumed as high as 330.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Which is really high.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Oh yeah.

[Podcast Host]

But I also noticed when I got that high my, I'm not gonna lie, my body got harder and leaner.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And I got off of it because I was like, all right, something's wrong here. I didn't like. No, be honest, I didn't, I didn't trust it. Right now I'm at around 250. But do you have a problem with someone driving it that high? Do you think that there's any long term data that's going to point you in the direction of like, hey, this may not be the best thing for you.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

There isn't any long term data now. There's not even acute data in healthy people. Right. So one of the better studies was Jose Antonio a couple years ago gave college age people like they use protein supplements to get them up to. I think some people in the study were over 400 grams of protein per day. Now again, it's a self reported study. The odds of all those, you know, bros eating that much protein a day, probably not quite that amount, but still ridiculously high. And what they showed is once you get a past about in, we'll put it in US numbers, 0.7 grams per pound of body weight, maybe 1 gram per pound of body weight, you don't see any more benefits for muscle. But body comp, like even though you have all these Extra calories coming in from protein. They didn't get any leaner but they didn't add any fat.

[Podcast Host]

Impressive.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

So I think the next trend if I were to predict is ultra high amounts of protein to get leaner because it does have some ti satiety effects. Again, the data on that is very split. They did some sub analysis in that group looking at I think microalbumin, cystatin C, basically a bunch of markers for kidneys. Didn't see any dysfunction, nothing wrong. You know, the old Brenner hypothesis has pretty much been disproven that if you make the kidneys work more it's going to be bad. There's all this other study, I think Lonnie Lowry did this study looking at protein seekers versus non protein seeker seekers.

[Ollie Sleep Solutions Announcer]

Right.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

To try to chronically look at the differences. Again, didn't find any differences but the protein seekers actually had measurable bigger kidneys but they were not dysfunctional.

[Podcast Host]

Isn't the proof in the blood work though?

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Isn't like at the end of the day, if you're driving, if I'm driving my protein up to 330, which I thought was like crazy high, and I'm going in for bloods every probably eight, nine months, I'm going for it. It's like if they're fine, what's the, what's the big deal? Is this just like. Well, continue. If you feel better and you look better, would you just recommend someone continuing to do that or, or no, I

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

mean I think it's probably fine. Although I would say once you get to your goal, just because I'm probably hyper conservative on this, I would probably work them back down. Right. But I've had, you know, natural competitors eat, you know, 110 pound female for a while. Was that 240 grams per day? Now again, we didn't leave her there forever, but again it's a trade off. Right. So if I have someone and they want to do higher protein and they're willing to do it, I think that's probably relatively safe. And their body comp is getting better. They're probably overall in a better position than they were not doing it.

[Podcast Host]

I mean one great thing about having you here is I like debunking some myths because it drives me crazy when people come to me and they ask questions, but they're hearing it from people that aren't credible. I want them to go watch someone like you debunk the myths through someone like you. What are some common myths people believe about metabolism through social media? Or things that you have seen and heard that you're just like, that is false. Like, yeah, stop worrying about that. Are there any that pop into your head?

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

The biggest one I would say is most people, and I'm sure you've heard this a ton, is my metabolism is broken.

[Podcast Host]

Broken, yeah, damaged.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

And I'm like, damn, shut down. What happened to it? Like, what part is broken? If I have a car and you tell me the car is broken, well, what part is the engine not work? Is the AC out? Like, what. What part of your metabolism is broken? And usually if you dig deeper, they're talking about just the amount of calories it takes them to exist, right? They're like, oh, my resting metabolic rate is just bad. And, and you've done this too. Like, if you measure a lot of people's resting metabolic rate, it's almost way higher than what they think.

[Podcast Host]

Right?

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

And I even pulled the literature on this years ago, looking at, okay, what is the worst possible case to see the lowest RMR I can find? And it was actually an anorexics. And it still wasn't below like a thousand calories a day. Maybe 800, maybe 900 calories per day. But the average person who's not an anorexic thinks, oh my God, my, my RMR is like 300 calories a day. I just keep gaining fat. Like, they have this artificially, like incredibly low number.

[Podcast Host]

I've never heard of one that. That low. I've never.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

It doesn't exist. Yeah, right. But people, like the average female still thinks 1200 calories a day is what I need. The average bro things 800, you know, 1800 calories per day. Made up numbers. And most of the time that's the resting metabolic rate is higher than that.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

And so even in the worst case scenario, there's a few outliers in, you know, metabolic conditions, etc. Your metabolism is probably not broke. The second one is that it rapidly declines with age. And if you look at that, you're pretty good even at just general population data up to about age 60. And even after that, it doesn't drop off that much if you stay as active as you were when you were younger. And that's the caveat because a lot of people are like, oh, but I go to the gym now. I exercise like an hour a day. Like, true, which is great. But you sit on your butt the rest of the day. Like your step count is like 3,000 steps a day. Like, how about you move and do more things like that? Like Think back to college. Like, you had to walk to class. You're probably doing extracurricular activities. You're probably exercising. Just the total amount of movement, just the energy, right? So total daily energy expenditure was higher back then. And, you know, having the clients for years and you get them back up to that number, they're shocked, like, oh, my God, my metabolism works again, right? It's like, yeah, physics works again.

[Podcast Host]

I used to live. I lived in the city for 15 years. I worked in here for 20. And I remember there wasn't an area. I don't think there was a street in the city that I haven't been on. I don't think about it. I worked at Equinox in 99, left there. Then I worked on foot for five years before I opened my first gym. And when I was on foot, I'd work as far north as 100 street, as far south as Battery park, as far east as York, and as far west as 11th Avenue, West End Avenue. And the way I would get there would either be subway or run. That was. That was it. If I was going east to west, I'm running even sometimes north to south. I'd get off the train and I'd be like, don't walk, just run. And I remember at that point, we weren't wearing trackers. All of a sudden, like, I got 30,000 steps. Like, I didn't sit. I didn't even sit eating. And then when I ended up coming out of the city, then I'm like, in front of a computer a little more, and I'm like, oh, my God, I got to go for a walk. Like, I can't believe I'm sitting more. My. My. My body feels a bit different. When you're talking about if you can't damage someone's met. What about, say, bodybuilders or people who go into, like, dieting for a period of time? Because people get into that, they start asking questions about, well, how long can I diet for? And it's always a question that I never really know how to answer because I'm like, well, it depends on how extreme. And it depends your lifestyle. And it depends on, like, I have a guy I'm working with, this was £525. You got him down £180 without any GLPs, which I'm begging him now to, like, go see a functional medicine doctor to get on it, because he just can't move beyond this. But he's been dieting now for four years. So someone like that, I'm like, no, you've been in a deficit. But I even question now whether he's in the deficit too long because things are starting to slow down. But what do you recommend? The whole reverse dieting piece? Does that help actually get your metabolism to work more efficiently? So when you want to go into that fat loss phase, things happen a little bit easier?

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yeah, I know.

[Podcast Host]

That was a lot.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yeah. So. So one thing is your metabolism, your. It just. I should say total daily energy expenditure does change. Right, Right. So if you look at physique, sports are great because you're trying to get down to an unreasonably low level temporarily. And if you talk to people who do that, like a good buddy, Eric Helms is like, oh, you mean competitive starvation, which is kind of what it is. Your neat. So non exercise activity thermogenesis, how much you want to move around drastically drops.

[Podcast Host]

Drops.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Right. Anyone who's done this, who just slashed their calories real low for a period of time, like, you will notice this.

[Podcast Host]

It's miserable.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Like, I remember doing this for a while working at a coworking place, and I'm like, okay, start cutting calories. I'm like, maybe I'll play with a couple of weeks of just being more aggressive, just, you know, to run experiments, see what happens. I remember walking to the coworking place and I normally would walk all the way down to the end and walk in, and I realized I started cutting the end off of my steps and I went, oh, my God. Like, I am unconsciously trying to be more effective, efficient because I slash my calories. And it's weird that the neat is very much an unconscious thing. Right. Because your body is going, holy crap, we're survival based. This idiot just slashed his calories. We better conserve movement. So it doesn't necessarily downregulate metabolism per se. There is slight drops in it. It's mostly your voluntary movement.

[Podcast Host]

Right. And so me, guys, me sitting here right now unable to sit still. Yeah, that is not neat. This thing's going in my now, now I'm fixed. But me this. And that's what he's referring to as neat.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yep. So that. So that does definitely change. So in the question about should you reverse diet? What I do now with competitors is I. I ask them, based on their psychology, what is better for them, because some of them, the thought of them gaining weight in a relatively short period just psychologically just messes with them so bad because they feel like they're going to overshoot. So the, the downside of that, though, is if you're doing the extreme reverse where it's only an extra 100 calories per week or whatever.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

You're staying in this artificially low high stress environment and you, you're just not even back to maintenance yet. So based on physiology alone, if I could snap my fingers, I would actually want them to be back to maintenance

[Podcast Host]

as quickly as possible.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

As quickly as possible.

[Podcast Host]

But the reason we don't do it is because they get sick or it's too overwhelming or.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Right. And then they're afraid they're going to overshoot. And I get it. Psychologically, it's hard. If you were a competitor, let's say you're a female, you're on stage at 110, your off season weight is 123, and now you get back to 120 within a few weeks. I get it that that's psychologically shocking and the stress comes with that too. However, if you take a reverse diet and you're there for six months or this extreme period of time, it's a lot of mental effort because you don't have the show, you don't have a big goal and we can't really gain a lot more new muscle. You're actually under calorie that whole time. So to me, there's this, this trade off and I usually go more on the psychology of it, all things being equal.

[Podcast Host]

I love it.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

I want to get you back to maintenance sooner, but I don't want to do it in a way that psychologically you're going to be wrecked. And then if you work with competitors, like most of the time after the show is by far the hardest because you don't have that big stressor. And you know, multiple clients of most of them will never admit this, have. And I know people who are very experienced. I'm sure you've seen this, have had the craziest binges that they will never tell anyone about. And I understand why.

[Podcast Host]

Let's trade stories. The biggest I've seen was in 36 hours, one of my buddies competed in an NPC. He gained 35 pounds.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Yep. I assume he's 24.

[Podcast Host]

24. He parked himself at a Cheesecake factory. It was no joke. He literally sat there. I think he got there at like 11am and he sat there through dinner. Oh, he sat there through dinner. And he showed up like that Wednesday. And I'm like, pat, what the hell? My God, like, I've never seen 35. Yeah, 35 pounds. It was, it was, it was bananas. I can't. I mean, the Changes he made in his physique. And I mean, he's crazy. He's. He's insane. He's about as extreme.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Oh, he's, he's extreme. He is the definition of extreme.

[Podcast Host]

I love training with him because we're very similar from a training standpoint. So like we just. I just love to train. But that's it. That's another. All right, so I have one more question for you in this topic. And I know we could have went on for an hour trying to keep it short. Sweet. So some wants to improve their metabolism. Give me the cliff notes of things that they should improve. Because immediately someone's like, well, I'm going to do cardio first. And I'm going to. It's still important, right? I still think cardio is important. But like, what do you give me your cheat sheet on. On tips? Bullet points for people they want to improve. You know how they're burning fat. That's what I'm saying. What are the best things for them to do?

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

The biggest levers for most people are going to be protein. Like so you can go easily 1 gram per pound of body weight. Easy. Right. The second one would actually be just increasing your total. Neat. Actually go for a walk. I do think some of the trackers are useful for that. I've logged step counting clients for years. Back when we've had a pin. Little step counts on them and they go through the washer and they lose them and all that kind of stuff. If you can fix your sleep, that's definitely better. Training is good, but train for the adaptation you want and don't be so hyper worried about the calories you expend. Like use more neat and more walking and recreation and pick a new sport. Do jiu jitsu. I do a lot of kiteboarding. Like just go, move. Let's just have fun. Yeah. Still train. But training is more for the adaptation we want. And don't convert your lens to training is just burning calories. Because I think that's the biggest mistake people make.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I feel like calorie burn. And most people who measure heart rate, they don't really know what they're looking at. Like, correct my heart rate got to here. I'm like, well, what does that mean? And also they're like, right. It's the same thing with. It's same with. I'm only burning 400 calories during a lifting session. I'm like, I have no idea what I've ever burned calorie wise in a lifting session. I've never looked at that. So I really appreciate you saying that. Dr. Mike. Thank you.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

I really appreciate. Can you tell everyone where they want to learn more about you? Social media handles website. Where can they find you? And we're going to do this guys. Don't worry. He's going to be back on to talk about a lot more things. Trust me.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Sure. Instagram is probably the best place for social media. Dr. Mike T. Nelson and then most of my content goes out to the private newsletter. They can just sign up to [e-mail] Newsletter Perfect. And send cool stuff to them every day. Try to make it also entertaining too. I love it.

[Podcast Host]

Well guys, thanks for joining.

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

It's great. We're going to do two more episodes with Dr. Mike Nelson. Stay tuned. The views, information or opinions expressed in the series are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Chip and Joanna Gaines by

[Dr. Mike Nelson]

Nail Audio nor Magnolia.