A (1:51)

Typically at her.

B (1:52)

Long Island.

A (1:52)

No. What'd you say?

B (1:54)

Long Island Long. Long Island.

A (1:59)

Long. It's like. It's like Toronto.

B (2:01)

Like people's lawn. L, A W N and then Guyland. No, no, no, it's not.

A (2:06)

But it's. It's funny.

B (2:07)

All right, we haven't started, but.

A (2:09)

No, we have started. We're using all of this.

B (2:12)

I'm doing. I'm loosening up the host. I'm always loose. I know you're not. I can tell you not. You think I get nervous? All that muscle, it makes you nervous.

A (2:21)

It's not true.

B (2:22)

It does. I can tell it makes you nervous. Relax. It's going to be fine.

A (2:25)

Oh, my God. We're matching.

B (2:26)

We are. Oh, good.

A (2:27)

I almost wear a blue button down.

B (2:29)

Really?

A (2:29)

I was this close. That would have been catastrophic.

B (2:33)

I almost put on my muscle suit.

A (2:35)

That would have Been catastrophic. All right, I've got to know you now. 16, 17 years. What do you think? You think it's that long?

B (2:42)

I think, at least. Right. When did we do that Wolverine movie? That was like, 2006.

A (2:48)

I had. We had Amelia, my daughter, in. In 06.

B (2:52)

Yeah, 07.

A (2:53)

She's gonna be 18 this August, so do the math. You're the mathematician.

B (2:58)

You had a baby when I met you. So I'm saying you're probably accurate on 16 or 17.

A (3:03)

So I met you through Hugh, ironically. Worked with Hugh for a year.

B (3:07)

He moved.

A (3:08)

I connected with you way more. I mean, I've known you and kept in touch with you since then.

B (3:14)

Yeah.

A (3:14)

Running you on the street. A few months ago, we were like, hey, like it?

B (3:17)

Do you know the story about me meeting Hugh?

A (3:19)

No.

B (3:21)

So Hugh and I, we had a friend in common, Jim Mangold, who put us in a movie called Kate and Leopold. And we kind of hit it off on that movie. And then he was doing the Wolverine movie, and he called me and asked me if I wanted to play Colonel Stryker. And I said, yeah, I don't really want to play the bad guy. I'll play the bad guy, but I want to be. I want to be like you. I want to be like a mutant or something. So he gave me the part of Victor Creed, Sabertooth, and I got the. And this is basically because Hugh's the guy who got me into training. I never worked out. I mean, other than boxing. Well, I boxed and I played football, but I never worked out for my body, like, three. Physically, cosmetically. I never. That was always a thing. In the back of my mind, I had a thing like. That's for actors who can't act. They do that. And that was bullshit. But then I met Hugh, who's like, this extraordinary actor who obviously is really amazing at taking care of his body. And I met him and I said. And probably it was the. We had. Maybe we had about three or four weeks before we started shooting. And I said, so, Hugh, when do I get the suit? And he said. He said, what?

A (4:41)

What's it?

B (4:41)

And he. And I said, you know, the. The suit. So I. You know, so I have muscles. And he's like, oh, mate. No, there's. There's not a suit, mate. And I'm like, what? He's like, no, you gotta work out. I was like, no, I'm not. That's not. I'm not. I really. I can't do that.

A (4:58)

I'm shocked about that, because I always felt like you were always into Fitness?

B (5:05)

Yeah. I mean, I was always into sport, but I was never into the kind of regiment that, you know, guys like you, who at that time, and I think I'm pretty sure he still does, wants to do it naturally. You got to work out hard to get a body like that. And he. He's pretty much the guy who taught me how. And. And then he connected me with you, which was kind of the second phase, which was sort of, you know, when we worked on, you know, getting me ready for Ray and being specific about how the character's body looks. And then I realized that one of the things that Hugh explained to me was that it's just a tool in your toolbox that you're not using. Right. You know, it's like it's a wardrobe. You're just not using it. And that when you can. And there's a lot of things you can do. Like, you know, you showed me that they have to do with how the character looks, how the character moves, how the character feels, which are really things that have become a central part of what I do.

A (6:09)

Feels. We just said feels. That's the part that I think most people are missing.

B (6:13)

Right.

A (6:14)

Because they see an actor on stage and they see that person who's portraying the specific image and visual and they look strong. But it is the one role that you did, and this is going to be a surprise for you, that I think really changed my way of thinking in this business. Because I've been a coach now 26 years. I probably trained over 40,000 one hour sessions in my life. I worked with a lot of people. I'm a veteran. But it's Chuck, the Chuck Wetner story. Because you came in and we looked at. I said, who's Chuck? And you said, this was kind of what Rocky was based off of. So we go into my office and we go to Google and we literally this. You're the first person I ever did this with. Because as a coach, I want to understand visually what are we trying to create.

B (6:56)

Yeah.

A (6:56)

And it was interesting because you and I went back and forth and you were talking about mindset and what you're trying to portray. And when we pulled up the picture, he looked way worse than you look. So I'm like. I'm like, I get it now. That was. And that was. When was that.

B (7:11)

We did the same thing with Ray, though, because I didn't want Ray Ritt.

A (7:14)

You didn't want Ray? Rick.

B (7:15)

It's not believable, Big guy. But he was kind of a cross between in my Mind, he was kind of a cross between, like, Homer Simpson and Chuck Wepner.

A (7:23)

But Chuck was the first person that I went and saw.

B (7:27)

Yeah.

A (7:27)

He was like. I pulled him up on the screen and I was like, oh, my God. Like, yeah. And you're like, well, what do we do? And now I'm thinking, like, we're training for resilience. We're training for this mentality. We're training because you got to go in and be the kicker. And. And to have that, you have to feel strong. You have to feel, you know, this level of like. Yeah, right. A grit. And when I saw that picture, for me, in my career, that was a big turning point because I realized that this just wasn't always about getting people a little, like, Brad Pitt Fight Club.

B (8:00)

Right. That was a big, big part of it for me, was that it wasn't just about looking good, that it was about embodying something or feeling like the character. And in the case of Chuck, it was a guy who was kind of a master of taking punishment. Yeah. That's what. He could just take anything. I mean, part of that's genetic. Part of that's his skull. But I think also it was his determination and his resilience. And in a funny way, with Chuck, his. His kind of joie de vivre. Like, he was so excited to be fighting Muhammad Ali.

A (8:34)

Yeah.

B (8:34)

That he didn't care that he, like, beat the snot out of him for 15 rounds. He loved it.

A (8:38)

Yeah.

B (8:38)

And that made him resilient. But that, like, training for that body was really interesting because he wasn't quick, you know, and was, like, slow, but strong and heavy. And it was.

A (8:50)

I mean, it really was the Rocky. I mean, Rocky story became that. Right. That was what inspired you.

B (8:56)

Said Stallone saw him in that fight and. And wrote Rocky.

A (9:00)

He was like, the sluggish.

B (9:02)

Yeah.

A (9:02)

Like non athletic, not quick. But the guy could just take a beating.

B (9:07)

He wasn't going to get knocked down.

A (9:09)

There was a line in Rocky that I think is probably one of the greatest lines in all of the Rocky movies. It was when Apollo's trainer turned to him and goes, he ain't right for you, baby. You beat that man like, I've never seen no man beaten. And the man kept coming after you. It gives me the chills, because to me, that's what summed up the Rocky story. And that's learning about Chuck Wepner from you. That's what kind of summed up who he was even fighting Muhammad Ali.

B (9:40)

Tremendous heart.

A (9:41)

Tremendous. So your career really became magnified in 1992 on Broadway. That was the first. That was your breakout role, right?

B (9:51)

Well, yeah. I mean, my first Broadway show was in 92. It was called in the Summer House. And was Joanna Colitis directed. It was at Lincoln Center. It wasn't really that big of a deal. I think my breakout came in the Shakespeare in the Park. George Wolf kind of made a home for me at the Public Theater. I played a couple of small roles, and George basically said to me, you know, if you want to commit to this place, we'd love to have you. And he kind of made it a home for me. And I think doing those free Shakespeares in the park was really formative to me. The work ethic that's in there, the fact that it's free, the fact that you're, that it's such an essential part of New York, the fact that it's Central park, the fact that for me personally, that it's Shakespeare. And then I got a review in the New York Times for playing Giacomo in Cymbeline. And then that was kind of when, you know, directors wanted to meet me, and I got Manchurian Candidate and Mixed Nuts and started making films.

A (11:07)

And Glengarry, Glenn Ross.

B (11:09)

Glenn Gary. Glen Ross was, I got. Yep, that was huge for me. But I think probably the really formative stuff for me came in the theater and like you said, and I think came. But with the Public Theater and with.

A (11:23)

George Wolf, I find theater. I have a different respect for theater. Now. I've seen you perform in that, that role that you just mentioned, I think. Did you do that with Scarlett?

B (11:35)

Oh, that was. View from the Bridge.

A (11:36)

View from the Bridge. I saw you in. And I started going to see some clients perform on stage, and you know the ones that have it when you forget you know them. Like, it's one thing to show up and watch someone in a role when you don't know them, because that's what you're seeing on stage is what you're gonna think they are forward. But when you can actually come in to a theater, sit down and say, I know that person, and then forget you're watching that person, I think that's where the, the, the gift is. And I, and I, I, I truly believe that I, I, I find theater acting. And I'm an, I'm a non actor, but I would assume it's way more difficult because this is a rinse and repeat almost every single day. There are no second cuts. There are no second takes. There are no redos. You're walking into set Sometimes you're probably carrying. You know, you have a bad day here and there, and you got to shut it off on the spot, and you got to make it happen on the spot. And I found. I developed this newfound respect. Not new, but this respect back then for you guys doing theater. I just think it's a different. It's a. It's a different game.

B (12:39)

It is. It's a different animal. I. You know, I think a huge part of what I love about theater is that it's really about the audience. Is it like. When I got into the graduate program at Yale for the acting program, I was so excited. I told my grandfather I got into Yale. I didn't tell him it was for acting. We were 14 of, like, I think 7,500 applicants, so we thought we were pretty hot shit. And Lloyd Richards, who ran the program at the time, one of the first things he said to us is that, I want you to know that this program is built around playwrights and that actors are the tools of playwrights. And that was like, a really liberating idea for me, because what it meant was that it's not about me blowing up. It's not about my career. It's not about being good. It's not about being attractive. It's about delivering an idea that's handed to you by a writer. And that, in some ways, is really a liberating feeling, because it gets you out of your head. It gets you out of your ego, out of your narcissism, all that other stuff. And what you realize is really happening in the theater when it works, is an exchange of ideas with an audience. And because the suspension of disbelief is so great, in other words, they know you're an actor. There's a proscenium, there's lights. They know it's not real because they know all of that. I think they commit even deeper to the idea because it's a gesture. It's not naturalism. It's not a film. And so when it works, there's a real exchange with the audience that they. They become immersive first with each other, which I think a lot of. You know, when you hear those laughs in the theater, there's a whole bunch of different laughs, but the most common laugh is a laugh of acknowledgement, where they're actually speaking to each other. Something happens on stage, and they go. And it's basically telling the guy next to them, yeah, I know what.

A (14:40)

Yeah, but that feeds you, doesn't it?

B (14:41)

When you're.

A (14:42)

Do you find yourself kind of do you find yourself deviating? Not off a script, but maybe your emotions or how you're delivering that message? Do you find yourself maybe deviating based off of the energy from the crowd?

B (14:55)

Yeah, but you got to be careful because the most important thing is the idea, the play, right? And if you start making it all goofy and going for the laughs, you lose the thread. And the thing that they're trying to do is they're trying to commune. You know, they're trying to collectively get together on something, on an idea. It's like that's why a lot of. Sometimes people even call theater church, that there's. It's a place for us to go where we are a community and we kind of spiritually resonate. And when the play is good, when it's something that's really rich, you resonate with something profound. And I. That feeling is irreplaceable to me, no matter what happens in my career. To be able to in the dark with 800 people who are kind of resonating off of each other is extraordinary. And if you do a good job, it becomes them. It's not about you. It becomes they are immersed in whatever their story is, you know, for like a play like Doubt or a play like Glengarry or even Shakespeare. You're putting an audience in a place where they're thinking deeply about the ideas that that writer has put forward. And. And they're resonating their humanity. And that feeling, aside from the laughs and aside from the applause and all of that, is extraordinary and yet totally energizes you.

A (16:18)

Do you find sometimes you read a script, but do you still have to sit and speak with the writer to gain a little bit more context on what you want to grab or what the writer wants you to kind of create in this character? Or do you feel like you can just read a script and you're like, I got it.

B (16:34)

I think with films it really helps to talk about it because, you know, you don't have that rehearsal period, but in the theater, you know, typically you have like a five to eight week rehearsal period with a director where you're going over the play over and over and over and talking about what it means and, and what expresses it and. And how to. How to do it. So I think, yeah, I mean, with new plays, it's really nice. Like this last play, we're doing a. Right now we're doing an adaptation by Jen Silverman of Creditors, and it's been great to have Jen around to talk about what they've done. With Strindberg.

A (17:15)

This episode of Stronger is brought to you by Hydro. Hydro is an at home rower that gives you the closest feeling you can have to actually being on the water. It hits 86% of your muscles in one session and you could do it in just 20 minutes. What I love about Hydro is I was never someone who really was so drawn into using rowers. And when Hydro sent me a rower to try out, I got on this thing and I could not believe how smooth it was. Every time I would pull that rower it felt like I was driving a high end Mercedes or Bentley. It's such a difference in how it moves and the display is incredible. You're pretty much gamifying your workouts. For me, that makes rowing very fun and since I've been using my hydro rower now, I'm actually really excited to get on it. So this has been by far my favorite rower that I've used. So I definitely recommend you guys trying it for a limited time. Go to hydro.com and use stronger. S T R O N G E R to save up to 450. Oh my God, it's a lot of money. $450 off your hydro Pro rower. They're offering free shipping, a 30 day risk free trial and one year warranty. That's H Y D R O W.com code stronger to save up to $450. Hydro.com code stronger for me. I've been a coach my whole life. Obviously exercise has been a big part of it, but I understand that sets and reps is such a small part of the equation. There's so many things that as a coach I have to look at and I feel like every day of my life, even right now, even though I'm not coaching like I used to, I'm still a student and I am passionate about it. I love it. I love helping people, but I love learning. Do you feel like when you jump into a character, you jump into a role? Are you looking for these roles to help challenge you? Is it something where you're reading a script sometimes and going, you know what, this is just, this is too easy or I have not played this enough or there's a, there's a part of my career that I haven't done that I feel like is enabling me to feel incomplete because I haven't challenged myself in this aspect for sure.

B (19:24)

I think every part I've ever done has been some, you know, some exploration of identity and some bit of perspective. That's the great thing about my job, is that I get to explore identity, and I get to explore the things that we think about every day with the collaboration of great writers and great directors and great actors. But, yeah, I think for a long time, every part, and probably still every part I played, was some version of my grandfather of me, you know, having been separated from my father at a very early age and bonding really early on to my grandfather was me trying to understand who I was and where I was from and things like masculinity and culture and spirituality and. And, you know, my grandfather was a huge influence on me, and for some reason, a real source of emotion. I'm sure you have somebody like that in your life that, you know, when you're working, when you tap into something that feels powerful, you know, not to be too method or something, but when you want to tap into something that holds meaning for you. A lot of that stuff for me was always around my grandfather.

A (20:51)

It's interesting because mine was my grandfather also.

B (20:54)

Yeah.

A (20:54)

Had nothing to do with training, but it had to do with business. It had to do with people. There was this work ethic.

B (21:00)

Yeah.

A (21:01)

And, you know, he's. You know, his family's from Ischia, which is off the coast of Naples, and. Beautiful place, beautiful place. I've been there once. I was there on my honeymoon, and I. I remember at a young age, he put me to work, and I felt like. Because he was working at a fruit stand before school and falling asleep at the desk, and the teacher's not giving him a hard time because they know he's working. And then, guess what? After work, back to the fruit stand to work with his dad. It was a different mentality. So when I was growing up, my grandfather would look at me and be like, go clean the toilet. It's clogged. Or I'm like, I don't have a plunger. He's like, your hands are your plunger.

B (21:34)

Oh, geez.

A (21:34)

And I'd be like, really? He'd be like, now?

B (21:37)

Or, like, would stick your hands in the toilet.

A (21:41)

Yeah, I've done it. I've done it with him. He would look at me. No, it sounds great. But there was a mentality. It wasn't. I'm not saying that to be gross.

B (21:50)

No.

A (21:50)

But there was one time where I saw him go in and unclog a toilet with his hands because we didn't have a plunger at a catering hall that he owned. And I went, that's disgusting. And he got really upset with me. There was a mindset with him where you get your hands dirty. You can wash your hands.

B (22:04)

My grandfather worked in the meat market and he drove a truck and he delivered meat to diners. Back then, you know, this is in the 30s. When I was a kid, diners were very prevalent in New York. You had diners every other block. And so we would deliver, like, the boiled hams and the salamis. And the most exciting thing was a New York round, which was like the whole hindquarter of a cow that you got to throw up on your shoulder. But that was my grand. 4 o' clock in the morning, get on the van, me and my brothers, and we would deliver meat to the diners. And then, you know, it's a lost art. Work. Work. Yeah.

A (22:45)

Perfect.

B (22:45)

No, that's, that's a really, really good point in terms of raising kids. And for both of us, like, you get to this place where you have success, you have attention, you have an easy life, and part of you associates, or at least part of me, I'm curious for you as well, associates. Everything that I have with not having, like, if I had had a different route, like, if I hadn't struggled, I don't think I'd have the same work ethic. And I worry about, for my kids who don't have that concern.

A (23:19)

They don't have the struggle.

B (23:20)

They don't have that struggle.

A (23:21)

Well, that was my next question to you was, you know, I know I had the struggle. I've been very open about it on here. What was your, I mean, I, I know for you it wasn't the steady climb of success, and, oh, I'm nailing everything. And like, it wasn't like that. Like, what were some of the, Was there doubt? Were there times when you felt like you took a couple steps back? Were there times when you're going, this is really hard.

B (23:44)

I didn't think I had a choice. You know, my mom was on welfare. She was a cab driver. You, you know, and I, I, I, I was like, I, I didn't like being poor. You know, we, we lived in squats. My, my mom, you know, she thought all that stuff was cool. She was a crazy hippie. You know, she did community gardens and was interested in living in buildings without electricity and no hot water. And I was like, this is not how I want to be. And I was embarrassed I was going to public school, but if you didn't have the right sneakers, you were putz. And like, my sneakers are from the A and P. And I was getting teased all the time, and I hated it.

A (24:23)

Yeah.

B (24:23)

And I was like, I'm I gotta make money. I've gotta. And I also had this thing in my head that I was. I have to support my mom. And so getting to a point where, okay, I've got to start taking school seriously. I got to start. Stop messing up. I got to stop getting in trouble. Got to go to college, and then finding theater. First really wanting to be a playwright and then having a playwriting teacher tell me that you'd be better off as an actor, but finding theater and thinking, I can't do this because this isn't going to make money. So I was studying also film and. And. And visual liters, semiotics, because I. I thought advertising would be an interesting and fun career and actually spent the first. My first three years in New York kind of copywriting and trying to get gigs at agencies because I thought, I have to make money. I have to. It wasn't a question. It was like a. It was like a survival thing. And then I got incredibly lucky. I mean, you know, incredibly lucky that, you know, in the beginning, doing theater was like $500 a week.

A (25:30)

Yeah. But is that luck, or is it just when you're good, you're good? I mean, a lot of people will. I think from a humility standpoint, it's natural for you to say, I got lucky. I was in the right place at the right time. But when you're good, you're good.

B (25:40)

You're resourceful because you have to be. You know what I mean? And it's maybe. Maybe some of that's talent, but I also think a lot of it's resourcefulness and resilience. Like, you know, when you don't have a choice, you find ways to get things done. You know what I mean? If you've got lots of choices, you tend not to do things. You know what I mean? That's what I worry about with the phones is, like, you know, the phones give us so many options. They give us so many things to do other than the thing we might need to do, other than the thing that might be good for us, because it's so much easier to sit there and, like. You know. Hit today's Wordle.

A (26:16)

Recently, I contact someone and I call them and they pick up and they go, is everything all right? And I'm like, yeah, everything's fine. Like, I'm. I'm calling you. Like, I. This is. I. I want you to hear my tone. I want you to hear that. This message I'm giving you right now. I'm not angry. We're gonna talk.

B (26:33)

Yeah.

A (26:33)

And I said it to my son recently. He was messaging someone like, why don't you just call them?

B (26:37)

And he laughed at me.

A (26:37)

We don't call, we just message. That's what scares me about the phones. I love the information. I love the fact that we have access, quick access. I think this is. This is a positive thing. And the people are like, social media is terrible for you. Social media has been a great tool for me. I think you have to have a line. I think you need to know where to draw the line. I use a social for business. I'm not on there searching the web all day. I'm busy. I don't have time to sit there and go off into everyone's life or their imaginary lives and be a part of that. It's just not what I have time to do. But I think the tone piece of it is where I'm struggling with.

B (27:10)

With most people, you know, the part. The part. I think a good metaphor is dopamine, right?

A (27:15)

Yeah.

B (27:15)

And the reason why is because. And this is. I think this does have something to do with not having and then having, you know, because when you don't have. And you spend a period of time not having, when you get. It's a special feeling. But if you have all of the time, there's no special feeling.

A (27:37)

Right.

B (27:37)

And that's the problem with dopamine is the phone gives it to you all the time. So what happens is interesting. You know what I mean? And. And you need to spend some time away from the thing. You've got to starve yourself a little bit to feel hungry, because the hunger is really what you want. I think for me, at least, when I think about it in. In terms of the metaphor of, like, work and my life is the desire to work is everything. The desire to do something is everything. And when you're getting something, when it's being done for you all the time, your body doesn't provide you with that desire, that thing that makes you an animal, that makes you a human. And that's the part I worry about with my kids. Because not only in terms of that sort of work ethic and the metaphor of dopamine, but I also think the chemical component of it is really scary because, you know, they're incredibly distracted. It's very hard for them. It's very hard for them to hold their attention. It's very hard for them to not feel the urge to get on it, to not feel bored. And I think, you know, obviously part of what you do is such a huge antidote to that, to get your body moving, to get your adrenals reset, and to get you in a place where you're in the world again and you're moving.

A (29:01)

Looking back now, you wanted to be an actor, but you got into HBO Sports. You started doing voiceovers, you started doing commentating. It's funny because a lot of people will recognize your voice and not. Yeah, I think you've got one of those very easy to pick out voices where, you know, I think of you as almost like a James Earl Jones or Donald Sutherland. I hear you. I know, and I'm giving you a compliment. But, like, I hear those voices, and you got to be a fool not to know. Well, at least if you're my age. I hear your voice, and I'm like, that's. That's liev.

B (29:30)

A guy from GBH named David Espar.

A (29:33)

What's gbh?

B (29:33)

It's like Public Broadcasting in. In Mass. In Boston. It's a great station. Gbh. If I got that wrong, I apologize. Gbh. But David Espar came and saw me in a Shakespeare play. I can't remember which one it was. And for some ungodly reason, he thought that I would be the right guy to voice this thing that he did called the History of Rock and Roll. And it turned out to be the most extraordinary program if you can get it. Check it out. Because his idea was that he would get producers from one era of music to produce the episode about another era of music. So, for instance, you'd get all this incredibly interesting insight, like, he got guys from, like, the Motown scene to produce the episode about the English invasion. And what's compelling about that is that the English invasion, the Beatles, and all that stuff. Yeah, they pushed all the Motown people out. So it's this whole new perspective on the end. It was really fabulous.

A (30:37)

So they're almost coming in hating on this era, and they have to now create this.

B (30:41)

They have this unique perspective.

A (30:42)

How'd they do with it?

B (30:43)

It's so good. It's so good. And he. And he asked me to voice it, and I just loved it. And I loved reading it. I loved watching it, and it went really, really well. And then a guy who's still a friend, who's an amazing person is Ross Greenberg, who used to run HBO Sports. And Ross asked me to do a few docs with him and a company called Black Canyon, who made some amazing sports docs. The doc about Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and. And bjorn Borg and McEnroe. Just incredible docs. And I got to voice these, and they're incredibly well written. And when you have that kind of quality behind you, it makes you look really good. And then we started. Ross wanted to do something called 247 for HBO, which was a brilliant idea of his, which is basically the model that everyone's, I think, following now, which is where you would sell pay per view by doing a program in a week advance, a week in advance of the fight, where you got to know the fighters. So the people were invested in the fighters before the fight, and, like, the pay per views just blew up. And on that job, I got introduced to Aaron Cohn, who's got, like, 24 Emmys, and we kind of became partners for a while. Not really, but he wrote all those 24 7s. And what he did so beautifully was he wrote in this kind of, like, classical poetic style. And the brutality of that, the brutality of boxing combined with the poetry of language made for this really interesting quality, which kind of reminded me of the old NFL film stuff that I used to love as a kid. When you'd have, you know, John Vinda just being, like, on the frosty fields of Minnesota.

A (32:41)

Yeah, it was like poetry. Yeah. Yeah.

B (32:43)

There's something wonderful about that. And epic. And that. I. That stuff just took off.

A (32:49)

But then you kind of brought that into Hard Knocks. A little Hard Knocks, because that was what I. When you said that, that's the first thing I thought about, because you became this voice that everyone knew, but you were almost narrating this story behind every single team. I thought that was a pretty brilliant idea.

B (33:05)

That's a great show. That show to catch all these athletes at this inflection point in their lives, could go one way or could go the other. It's just such an inherently dramatic concept that. That, you know, these. These. This is their dream, you know, these young men, you know, and only 50 guys are making the roster. It's. It's. It's such a. It's such a great idea.

A (33:26)

You brought up fighting earlier, which is going to segue into something I didn't think I was going to talk about, but you introduced me to one of my.

B (33:32)

I pinned you in the gym.

A (33:33)

Is that what you probably did. Are you still remembering that?

B (33:37)

I don't remember all I've got. And I honestly. I know, and I want to say it.

A (33:42)

I let you go.

B (33:43)

I'm gonna admit it on the podcast.

A (33:44)

I let you go.

B (33:45)

I know. I know.

A (33:47)

I do remember.

B (33:48)

You're monkey strong. There's no way that I could have ever done that.

A (33:53)

I gotta Be honest. I'm gonna be honest.

B (33:55)

You let me do it.

A (33:56)

I. I did, but I'm also not gonna sit there and go hard. It's like, we're in that. We're in the gym. It's like, that's another reason why I could never do BJJ or I couldn't do that stuff. Stuff. Because, like, for me, if I was in a fight, I was in a fight. Like, I couldn't go in. In a competition and beat the. Out of someone I don't know with no emotion, I can't turn it on and off like that. If you go try and hurt my family or hurt me, different story, switch goes on. But it's just something. Even play boxing, someone will come at me and be this. And I'm just kind of like, I can't play. So when I'm. When I'm rolling around a mat with someone, I just, you know, it's like, okay, let's go through technique. I learned a lot, though, that day when we were messing around with that, because that's a. That's a type of training that I was never really exposed to because of my.

B (34:38)

But you did wrestling, right? When I was younger, yeah.

A (34:41)

I was younger, but.

B (34:42)

So what was your big sport? Hockey?

A (34:44)

Baseball.

B (34:44)

Baseball. That's right. Baseball.

A (34:45)

I played collegiate baseball.

B (34:46)

That's right.

A (34:47)

That was my. That's like all.

B (34:49)

But you played hockey too, right?

A (34:50)

Yeah, I still do.

B (34:50)

Yeah.

A (34:51)

I play hockey. Still play hockey, yeah, one or two days a week. I play in the league where I play for a club called the Winter Club. And I. In the summertimes, I play out at Ice Works with that same Winter Club team. So we play Tuesday morning, 6:30am and sometimes Friday morning.

B (35:04)

And that doesn't bang you up?

A (35:06)

Leav. I put a lot of time into my body.

B (35:09)

Tell me about it.

A (35:10)

I put a lot of time. And like, there's mobility. There's too much maybe, but again, I love it. Well, you put too much time in acting like it's what you love. You know, it's fair. It's fair enough. But getting into the fighting piece of it, you introduce me to probably one of my closest friends now.

B (35:23)

Who?

A (35:23)

George.

B (35:24)

Oh, this is like what you're referring to. He's. What he's referring to is George Perros.

A (35:28)

That's what I was going to get into. We're going to talk about Goon.

B (35:32)

That's an amazing hockey player. Legendary brawler.

A (35:38)

I'm gonna say I was trying to.

B (35:40)

Be nice to George.

A (35:41)

Princeton graduate. Princeton graduate. Highly intelligent, runs All a player safety for the NHL.

B (35:46)

This is the irony of George.

A (35:47)

I think he's brilliant.

B (35:48)

He is brilliant.

A (35:49)

He's.

B (35:49)

No, no, no.

A (35:50)

You doubt about it. You call me one day and you're like, I'm bringing this guy and he's an enforcer. And I'm like, okay. I see George come in and they call him Mustache back in Anaheim. He has a long mustache. George has got to be 6, 4, 6 5, good looking, comes in with you, very humble, very quiet. I'm thinking like, I know him, I recognize him. And what was fascinating about George is George never was suspended in the NHL. He played nine years in the league, won a Stanley cup, was never suspended, never did an illegal cheap shot. Fighting for him was part of the game and he respected it. And now that's what's ironic, that he's running player safety for the NHL.

B (36:25)

Yep. He just happened to be good at it.

A (36:28)

I think he kicked the shit out of some guy in jazz.

B (36:30)

He did a lot, but he got any. And he took some too. But the thing about these guys, we made this film, Goon and I got.

A (36:38)

Phenomenal movie.

B (36:38)

Thank you.

A (36:39)

No, no, no, no, no. Time out. When I saw the average, I'm like, I can't believe Liev did this. This looks like a joke. And you looked at me, goes, don't sleep on this. This is a good movie. And I. I've watched that movie like five times.

B (36:48)

So much fun.

A (36:49)

It's so good.

B (36:50)

So much fun. But the best part of it for me was they sent me to hockey camp. You remember, they sent me to Jersey because I didn't know how to skate. I didn't know how to play hockey. I didn't know anything. And all they had to do it was to get me ready. And so. But the best part is that they got these guys, Colton Orr, George Perros, George Laroque, the most famous enforcers in the league, to hang out with me and teach me how to fight on the ice and to sort of give me a sense of what the world was. And to a man, every one of them are just the most extraordinarily nice, kind people. They're like monsters on the ice, but off the ice, they're incredible people. And for the longest time I was like, what is that? Just something about Canadians or something? And then George was like, I'm not even Canadian.

A (37:45)

Yeah, I'm Canadian.

B (37:46)

I think the answer is that because hockey's such a hard sport to get, ice time. They're very close with their families. Like, they had to get ice time that mom had to take them with all that gear? Maybe four o' clock in the morning maybe. I don't know.

A (38:02)

I look at them like seals. Like when every, any Navy SEAL I've worked with, they come out very humble, shake hands, very quiet. They're not.

B (38:08)

So why are seals like that?

A (38:10)

I think because they just know they're good.

B (38:12)

So you think that's why?

A (38:14)

I think when I think they're like that, I think they just know they'll kick the shit. They, they have that physical, they have that confidence and. But George is a different. George is also a different being because I think he's probably the most intelligent enforcer that ever stepped on the ice. What did you find differently between having to fight and manipulate the body on the ice with doing it in a ring? Because you have a, you have experience.

B (38:38)

You'Re like, you're like, oh, it's so different. And one of the things that I learned right off, right away from the Russian in Jersey, it's all about the edge, who gets the edge. And that means literally, you know, your skate, you're at the edge of your blade. You dig the edge of your blade. And that first grip, it's when you see those guys circling each other, what.

A (38:57)

They'Re the first hold.

B (38:59)

And George taught me that. And George had that technique too, where he, he'd grab you by the jersey and punch you while he's holding your jersey. But that first hold is going to tell you how the fight goes, because the reality is that they skate around, they circle each other, get the edge, get the grip, and then it's just a pounding. They just start wailing on each other and usually it's over. So that first edge and that first grab is going to determine everything. And a lot of times it doesn't have anything to do with size. Like, you'd have guys like Tai Domi going against Bob Probert.

A (39:31)

Yeah, crazy.

B (39:31)

Huge size difference. Crazy because he got the edge and he got the timing on the grab and the other guy's off balance. So it's nothing like boxing, which for me, boxing. And a big reason that I did it and still do it is not to fight, but to maintain mobility and to keep things like, you know, proprioception and that, those nerve twitch reactions and all that stuff going as you age. Because boxing for me is all about mobility, moving and footwork.

A (40:05)

And you still, but you still love the sport of boxing regardless. My son's a huge UFC fan. I never, like, was into it. It's a way that Me and my son connect every year. We go to ufc. We're out till two in the morning in the city, we're training it back. It's like this year, he's like, UFC is going to be at the Garden in November. I'm like, what's the date? I'll get tickets. Do you feel like boss boxing is going to continue to lose that edge that it's lost to ufc, or do you feel like they need to re. Spark things, they need to revamp it? Maybe a little bit of a facelift? What's your opinion? I'm curious.

B (40:36)

I don't know. You know, I can't help but be interested in martial arts because it's one of those things. It's like, I think it's built into our lizard brain that we want to know how to survive a situation. And so martial arts is a kind of. That's a riddle about how you survive something. So it's compelling. I'm not crazy about the brutality. I'm not crazy about the culture. And there's something about boxing that I'm more civilized. Well, not just that. Yeah. I mean, that's a component of it, for sure.

A (41:05)

Sure.

B (41:06)

But also that this is a sweet science. And then it's something that's, you know, and this is going to happen with martial arts too, because it's going to be around for a long time, I, I imagine, but with boxing, it has been around for a long time, and there's a skill component that, which also exists for sure, in, in martial arts. But there's something about that sweet science of it and, and, and the mobility and the, you know, pure boxers, guys like Usyk, guys like Mayweather, guys like Manny Pacquiao, guys like Chavez, you know, guys like Duran. Like, you watch, you know, it's just, it's, it's. To me, it's beautiful. I think one of the, one of.

A (41:46)

The best fights I've ever seen was, I think it was Leonard Hagler. When I was a young kid, I remember being on vacation with my parents and we pulled it up, and I was never a big, huge boxing fan. I mean, I was enamored by Tyson when he came into the circuit, because I've never, like, as a young kid, when you look at someone who frightened.

B (42:04)

You, just knocking people out, he just.

A (42:06)

I remember what he did to spanx was a.90 seconds, 91 seconds. I remember turning to my dad and being like, if someone was there and went to the bathroom, they missed that fight. Like, I've never seen another fighter so Intimidated by a man. And I remember watching it on the screen being intimidated and I wasn't even in the ring with him.

B (42:25)

He had extraordinary technique though. And no one ever gave him credit for that extraordinary technique. No one moved like that guy, like a tick. Well, everyone's always upper body would move how much power he would deliver with.

A (42:36)

But everyone's saying Ali. Everyone. When you hear, when I hear you talking about that, they're like, oh, Ali would have kicked his ass. I'm like, what do you have?

B (42:41)

I don't know, what do you have?

A (42:43)

Like you put 21 year old Tyson in the ring with Muhammad Ali.

B (42:46)

Like I think Joe Frazier and Mike Tyson share some DNA.

A (42:51)

Really?

B (42:51)

I think style wise. Yeah, like the way, the whole upper body, way of very similar shifting the upper body and just.

A (42:58)

Do you think Costamato did that purposely, like teach him that or do you think that.

B (43:01)

Sure, I'm sure. Cus looked at his body type and his speed and his energy and his tenacity and his commitment and he saw potential.

A (43:10)

Who do you are? Just, just, I'm putting you out there. Who do you think wins in a fight? 21 year old Tyson, 21 year old Ali or Ali at his prime? Who do you think in your gut feeling? It doesn't, it's obviously we'll never know. Who do you think wins?

B (43:22)

I'll tell you where I would bet my money. Where always bet on the mental.

A (43:26)

I'll see. You go with Ali.

B (43:27)

I go with Ali. Ali's and Ali's head game was unbelievable. Unbelievable. I mean, you see When We Were Kings, the documentary that was that old.

A (43:37)

That was an older documentary.

B (43:38)

Yeah. David Remnick book.

A (43:40)

There you go. Rewatch.

B (43:40)

That's an amazing book, David Remnick's book. But you know, Ali was constantly learning and constantly developing intellectually as well as physically. I always love that story. That's in the, in the David Remnick book about how, how terrified Ali was of Sonny Liston. Really? Yeah, he was scared.

A (44:03)

Why?

B (44:04)

Because Sonny Liston was like a hitman for the mob. He's a terrifying guy. He's built like a girl. He was a monster. He was knocking people out right and left. He, he was Mike Tyson at that time. And Ali is in the dressing room and Enliston walks in with his wife and Ali bumps into them in the hallway and Ali goes, oh really? Like that. And he said it was just an impulse, like a fear and he just. And he, and he kept it up and.

A (44:35)

Oh, was that Ali's whole, Was that his whole Shtick while he was doing.

B (44:39)

Wow. I never knew that it came from fear. And he was venting his fear. It's an actor trick. He's like venting his fear.

A (44:47)

But you're saying he was really afraid. He was really afraid.

B (44:49)

He was really afraid. So what happens is Sonny and his wife go in their dressing room and Sonny's wife says to Sonny, sonny, you be careful. That boy's crazy. Sonny went into that fight scared and Ali had an advantage and Ali knew that, felt it, and incorporated into his fights later on like there was nothing he couldn't achieve with his body. If there was something he couldn't achieve with his body, he would achieve it with his mind. And that was the thing that, you know, 21 year old Mike was struggling and I don't think 21 year old Ali was struggling as much. So I would give the advantage to the guy who's, who's, who's got that mental resilience.

A (45:30)

I was disappointed to see Tyson Usyk's like that. Who's that?

B (45:33)

Usyk, My favorite fighter. Alexander Usyk. He's Ukrainian.

A (45:37)

Which, which was my next, which was my next question. Okay, so, all right, so you've become very philanthropic in reference and you were very visual, you know, in flying over to the Ukraine, supporting, showing support. Can you talk about your charity for a second? And, and the monies you raised?

B (45:54)

And I've co founded an organization called Blue Check Ukraine, which the model is that there was a lot of research done about four or five years ago into the efficacy of localization of aid. What that means is that the best way to spend your dollars if you really want to help is to find local on the ground organizations that are actually doing the work. Work. So if you went to a place like Southern Sudan, you would go and you'd find out who's doing the work in Southern Sudan, get the money directly to them in Ukraine. You find out who's doing the work on the ground in Ukraine and you get the money to them. Now what you need to do that is we have a very wonderful international law firm called Ropes and Gray who verifies and vets everybody that we work with. So we know where the money's going. But if you go, if you localize it, you can cut out the middleman. And instead of them getting 30% of your money, they get, you know, we've, we've been, our numbers have been like 97 cents on the dollar. Wow. And we try to stay up there. And that's because there is no middleman. It's four guys with day jobs. The money goes to them, and full transparency. So for me, you know, a lot of people say it's because I'm, you know, I have Ukrainian grandparents and great grandparents, but it isn't. It wasn't the issue for me. I just felt in 2022, when the war broke out, first of all, that it was so outrageous that we're seeing a ground war in Europe in our lifetimes. I thought we were done with that mess. But nowhere is that model of what a democracy is more at stake or the value of it than it is in Ukraine. That situation is incredibly obvious, that this is a country who was starting to create a really healthy, strong economy. They were getting away from leaders who were really owed allegiances and loyalties to Moscow, and they were finally starting to develop as a country. They wanted to join NATO, they wanted to join the eu, and of course, Putin wasn't going to let that happen. And this was a democratic. This is a great model of the power of democracy and how it needs to be protected. And I think for me, it was a way of showing my own kids, because we have some heritage there in history, the importance of our democracy and how important it is for us to participate.

A (48:48)

You flew over there a couple times.

B (48:49)

Yeah, yeah.

A (48:50)

That wasn't like. It wasn't about to say, like, you didn't go over there once and check a box. Like, that was something that you were. That was very visual. I saw it on the Internet and I saw every. You know, I didn't know.

B (49:00)

We had to find our partners. You know, we had to find the people to work with. You know, there's this organization out there called Sterenki, who, you know, a lot of the. I mean, in fact, most of the young men are conscripted into the army to fight, and the women and children go to the cities where it's safer, like Lviv and Kyiv. So on the front line areas, the people who don't want to move are the old people. So Sterenki is this incredible organization who goes out, offers them evacuations if they want it, but most of them don't because they're old. And they're like, I'm not leaving my goat. I'm not leaving my house. This is where I live. Ukrainians are tough like that. This is like, this is my land. It's been my land for 70 years. I'm not leaving it. And so they bring them warming kits, they bring them food, they organize, like, tea socials for them, and an incredible group and. And they also offer to evacuate them if they want to evacuate. We have groups that do that. We have groups that is a terrific group of Project Victory, of American veterans who are over there. You know, these guys who can't stop helping. They can't stop. You know, a lot of these guys who've served can't stop serving. And when the dam was exploded, Jared and those guys, they were there in three days putting, bringing truckloads of water and filtration systems.

A (50:20)

Talk about tough. I mean, there's a quick side story on that. There's a young boy that I sponsored for his confirmation just about three, four weeks ago. His name is Jonathan Soviera, Italian last name. The father's Italian, but the mom's from the Ukraine, 100% broken English. And they go home every year to visit her parents. And he says when they're going to bed at night, the lights are shut off at a certain time and they can actually hear bombs in the background.

B (50:46)

Oh, yeah.

A (50:47)

And I'm looking at this kid who's 14 years old and his younger brother who's 12, and I'm like, does that make you guys nervous? And they're like, we're. We're used to it.

B (50:55)

And I'm like, it's an interesting, it's an interesting thing because the one component of it is trauma, right? But then there's this other thing about resilience that we were talking about earlier at the beginning of this, that you, you, you make a different kind of person. Like, there's a different level of strength, there's a different level of endurance. There's a different level of resilience that comes from these people. And that's what I see when I meet them. That, like, there's something different. And I, and I watch Usyk fight and I'm like, there's something different. There's just something different.

A (51:28)

You've been very generous with your. With your time. One more thing. And then we've got, I think, Chris, we have two questions on the back end. Yep, we've got two questions today, Don. They're going to ask us questions and you're going to be able to answer. So my. Before we take those questions, I want you to tell everyone what's next. What are you working on? What are you excited to work on? What's going on?

B (51:48)

I've got a film coming out, a director who I really love named Darren Aronofsky. It's got Austin Butler in it, Vincent d', Onofrio, ton of great actors, and I'm getting Ready to go do a show for Apple and A and E called Lazarus, which we'll be shooting in Pittsburgh in July.

A (52:10)

It's exciting.

B (52:11)

Yeah.

A (52:12)

Still cranking, you know?

B (52:14)

What do you mean cranking?

A (52:15)

Still, like, you're still working as much as.

B (52:16)

Oh, still cranking it.

A (52:17)

Yeah, yeah, just, like, still cranking it out. So working as much as.

B (52:20)

I thought that was, like, kids thing. Okay, good.

A (52:23)

We could we get a couple of those questions?

B (52:25)

Yep.

A (52:25)

First up, we have Ryan in Florida.

B (52:28)

Hey, Don. Hi, Liev. This is Ryan.

A (52:31)

And I'd like to know, what was it like working with Denzel in the Hurricane? Did you take anything away from his training? Wow. So just something really funny. His name in real life is Ryan Reynolds. I know that guy.

B (52:42)

Are you serious?

A (52:43)

Seriously?

B (52:44)

Okay. So great guy, by the way, working with Denzel. Extraordinary actor. A guy who immerses himself really deeply in character to the point where, you know, I played these, like, Canadian, obviously white guys who are the adoptive parents of the kid he's writing to and Hurricane, you know, was not crazy about these people. So Denzel wasn't very nice to us. And for the longest time, I thought he didn't like me. But then I did another film with Denzel with Jonathan Demme candidate, and I heard that he advocated for me. And so. And then I worked with him on that. And he's one of those guys who really goes deep, and I learned a lot from him. It was. It was a great experience.

A (53:44)

One of the better actors, you think in Hollywood, right?

B (53:46)

Terrific actor.

A (53:47)

Chris, can you introduce the next name, just so we have it?

B (53:50)

Yeah.

A (53:50)

Next up is Laura and her son Nathan.

B (53:54)

Hi, Liam. Hi, Dawn. My name is Laura. Who's Leo? Liv. Oh, great. He's a movie star. My name is Laura, and this is my son Nathan. And we were wondering what part that you've played required the most physical training and had the harshest demand on you. First of all, Nathan.

A (54:25)

You know who you were, man.

B (54:27)

Yeah, it's okay.

A (54:27)

It's all right.

B (54:28)

It's okay.

A (54:28)

See that? Sometimes I. I hope it happens.

B (54:31)

Your mom explains to you or shows.

A (54:37)

You the level of greatness we have next to me right now.

B (54:39)

The Sesame street that I did, where I encourage kids to brush their teeth, because I think you might enjoy that. I think probably the hardest physical training was the work that I did with Hugh on Wolverine. I'd never done anything like that before. And at that time, you know, and he had trained with you, he was also training with this Australian guy. Yes, Chris, who was. Yeah. Above Natural bodybuilder. Guy who was just, you know, I mean, we literally ate an army of chickens and lifted twice a day. And I was not seasoned for that. Hugh was in shape already. I was not. And that was brutal. On top of that was all the fighting and the stunts. And they had a rig that they put me in to make me run like a big game cat. And I remember that both Hugh and I took a beating on that. There's a scene where he comes into a bar, and I'm at the bar, and then I kind of run at him like the big game cat, and. And I tackle him through a door. And it was just so painful because what happened with these guys are running along the side, you know, kind of pulling me like a puppet. And there's one team that's lifting my butt when I jump, and then another team that's dropping my shoulders, but I'm impacting the ground. And both Hugh and I like doing stunts and fighting, so we wanted to do this stuff, but we did this one stunt that wiped us both out for three days. I kind of separated my shoulder, and I think Hugh broke a ribbon where I literally impacted him. And what we didn't take into account was the physics of a pendulum that. As I'm swinging on that machine and running into him, and then we. You know, it was. It was brutal.

A (56:25)

And you live with that shoulder. I remember your shoulder aggravated you forever with that shoulder.

B (56:31)

Yeah, still has.

A (56:32)

You've been wearing that.

B (56:33)

It would have to be Wolverine. Maybe Nathan one day. You can see that one.

A (56:37)

But he is Nathan. I'm going to tell his mom to make sure he watches the Sesame street, because that's might be your best work.

B (56:43)

Thanks.

A (56:43)

Awesome. So we still didn't. We still didn't determine how long I've known you for. It's got to be almost as long as you, right? 17, 18 years.

B (56:50)

Neither of us is really good at math. I don't think we should sweat that.

A (56:53)

You're better than me math. Maybe not. I want to thank you because in the industry I'm in, people come and go, right? Like. And it's. It's normal. It's something I had to learn. You connect with someone, you work with them. They're off in their life. You're off in your life. You've always been someone that the second I see you, I run into you. We give each other a hug, we take a few minutes to talk. Love your wife to death. She is someone that I connected with years ago. Phenomenal person.

B (57:21)

She sends you love.

A (57:22)

She's the best.

B (57:23)

And I'm.

A (57:24)

I'm grateful. Even though we don't see each other a lot, I know we'll always have each other's backs. And I want to thank you for your friendship and just for being here. Really, really grateful, man. Thanks for having me, guys. Thank you so much for listening in again. Thanks again.

B (57:35)

Thanks, Bobby.

A (57:41)

The views, information or opinions expressed in the series are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Chip and Joanna Gaines by N Audio nor Magnolia.