Podcast Summary: Stuff You Missed in History Class – Behind the Scenes Minis: All Things Clean

Release Date: September 12, 2025
Hosts: Tracy V. Wilson and Holly Fry
Podcast Network: iHeartPodcasts

Overview

In this "Behind the Scenes Minis" segment, Tracy and Holly reflect on their recent main episode focused on soap, saponification, cleanliness, and the historical and social evolution of hygiene. The conversation also delves into related topics raised by listener questions and their own research, ranging from the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on public perceptions of cleanliness, to the roles of notable historical figures in the science of disease transmission, and even personal anecdotes about scents and soap preferences.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis of the Soap Episode

• Tracy's Professional Background: Tracy shares that her prior experience writing about cleaning and sanitation products inspired her early ideas for soap-related episodes. She describes how this previous knowledge made the topic a natural fit when starting with the podcast (03:00).
• Listener Requests: The actual episode was eventually prompted by renewed listener interest, compelling Tracy to revisit and update her historical and scientific knowledge of soap.

2. Soap in Popular Culture and History

• Saponification and Fight Club: The hosts reminisce about their past episode on the "lady who turned to soap" and recognize how soap-making, particularly the rendering of fat, became a memorable plot point in Fight Club. Both remark on how the film/book uses soap as a metaphor for the sanitized facade of society hiding the "dirty" realities behind cleanliness (05:01 & 05:16).
  • Quote:

    “I can’t think about soap without thinking about Fight Club a lot.”
    — Holly Fry (05:10)

3. COVID-19 and the New Soap Awareness

• Pandemic-Induced Cleanliness: Tracy observes that numerous articles resurfaced in 2020 due to COVID-19, reiterating the basics of hand-washing to a population seemingly unaware of standard hygiene.
  • Quote:

    “It feels like to a segment of people, the idea that you should wash your hands for 30 seconds was new information.”
    — Tracy V. Wilson (06:06)

• Soap vs. Detergents: The discussion highlights the confusion over what constitutes “real” soap, including debates about the Dove Beauty Bar and the efficacy of surfactants for hand hygiene.

4. Soap Scents, Fragrances, and Marketing

• Personal Scent Preferences: Holly admits to being “a sucker” for scented soaps, especially pumpkin, and humorously embraces her “basic woman” identity for loving pumpkin-scented laundry detergent (08:01 & 08:19).
  • Quote:

    "Every marketer that makes Frou Frou Radonka Doodle soap that smells like cake, candy and pumpkins... they're like, what's Holly Fry's email address?"
    — Holly Fry (08:48)

• Origins of Marketing Cleanliness: Tracy describes how the mass production and marketing of soap “invented” certain social anxieties, like body odor, in order to sell products, comparing it to the coining of “halitosis” to sell mouthwash (09:25).

5. Cultural Standards of Cleanliness

• International Differences: Social expectations for cleanliness vary widely. Tracy shares a story about a friend returning from France, frustrated at the daily showering required in the U.S. versus more relaxed norms abroad (11:41).
  • Quote:

    “…in the US it has to be every day… if she wasn’t showering before going out, she was doing something wrong.”
    — Tracy V. Wilson (12:20)

• Individual Preferences: Both hosts talk about hair washing routines and how they differ by hair texture, race, and personal comfort. Tracy notes her own experience as someone with oily hair and skepticism about advice to “train” her hair by washing less (14:08).

6. Soap, Cleanliness, and Social Pressures

• Homogenization of Cleanliness: The drive for “ultimate cleanliness” is discussed as both a social construct and a personal challenge, with the hosts critiquing the unrealistic or unnecessary pressures that arise (13:50).
• Historical and Cultural Context: Books focused solely on cleanliness (not just soap) are mentioned as valuable for understanding how societies develop and enforce standards—though Tracy deliberately avoided diving too deep to keep her research episode-focused (15:00).

7. Ventilation, Disease Transmission, and the Wellses

• Historical Lessons Resurfacing: Tracy reflects on the research of William Firth Wells and Mildred Weeks Wells regarding indoor ventilation and aerosol disease transmission, and how 2020s debates echo their findings from a century ago (20:10).
  • Quote:

    “We could have been living in a world where there was enough ventilation and enough indoor air sanitation that maybe [illness at conventions] would not have just been viewed as probable [and] inevitable...”
    — Tracy V. Wilson (21:36)

• Experimental History: The hosts discuss the COVID-19 pandemic’s clarity on airborne disease, “con crud,” and whether better historical attention to ventilation would have changed outcomes or lessened public resistance to health interventions.

8. Biographical Mysteries: The Wellses’ Personal Lives

• Limited Personal Information: Tracy laments the lack of biographical depth on the Wellses, especially Mildred, whose career and family background (including her father’s embezzlement scandal) are obscure and sometimes conflicting. She describes using Carl Zimmer’s book "Airborne" to chase down elusive details (30:43).

• Marital Dynamics: The end of William and Mildred’s partnership—both personal and professional—is discussed. They remained married but lived mostly separate lives for years, a situation reflective of social norms about divorce at the time (33:26).

  • Quote:

    “For all practical purposes, they were not married, even though they were legally still married.”
    — Tracy V. Wilson (33:51)

• Working Couples: Holly and Tracy discuss the potential stress of married couples working together, recalling both negative and positive cases, and noting how modern workplaces often try to manage such dynamics with strict policies (34:14).

• Son’s Life and Discrepancies: There’s confusion over inconsistent historical descriptions of the Wellses’ son, with some sources labeling him as intellectually disabled, others citing mental illness. Tracy stresses the ongoing need for more accurate and respectful discussions of mental health (36:16).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On pandemic handwashing awareness:

  "It feels like to a segment of people, the idea that you should wash your hands for 30 seconds was new information."
  — Tracy V. Wilson (06:06)

• On soap marketing:

  "Some of the marketing of soap invented some concepts related to things like body odor as a product that needed to...be resolved through the use of soap."
  — Tracy V. Wilson (09:25)

• On international hygiene norms:

  “...now I have to spend all this time every single day showering and washing my hair. Because while I was in France, it was socially acceptable to, like, have a couple of days pass.”
  — Tracy V. Wilson (12:20)

• On conventions and airborne disease:

  "We could have been living in a world where there was enough ventilation and...air sanitation that maybe [con crud] would not have just been viewed as probable, inevitable..."
  — Tracy V. Wilson (21:36)

• On documentation gaps and mental health:

  “People’s situations get described incorrectly all the time…we need more information, not less.”
  — Holly Fry (37:33)

Key Timestamps

• 03:00 — Tracy explains her background and why soap was a starter topic
• 05:01 — Saponification, soap lore, and Fight Club references
• 06:06 — Pandemic hygiene revelations; the public’s “surprise” at hand-washing
• 08:01 — Soap scents and personal preferences
• 09:25 — Discussion on the role of marketing in cleanliness standards
• 12:20 — Cross-cultural differences in bathing and cleanliness expectations
• 14:08 — Curly vs. straight hair and differing hygiene routines
• 20:10 — Reflections on William and Mildred Wells, and airborne disease research
• 21:36 — Ventilation, “con crud,” and historical disease prevention strategies
• 30:43 — The difficulties of uncovering the Wellses’ biographies
• 33:26 — Relationship dynamics and separation of William and Mildred Wells
• 36:16 — Contradictory historical reporting on the Wellses’ son’s mental health

Tone and Style

Tracy and Holly maintain their signature blend of intellectual curiosity, humor, and empathy. They strike a thoughtful balance between historical research, personal anecdote, and social critique, often poking gentle fun at themselves (especially in matters of soap scent obsession) while maintaining respect for serious historical and societal issues.

For Listeners New and Old

This episode offers:

• Insightful perspectives on how history, science, and marketing shape our ideas about cleanliness
• A reminder of the ways pandemics resurface forgotten knowledge and habits
• Relatable stories about personal preferences and the pressures of conformity
• Candid commentary on the difficulties of reconstructing nuanced historical biographies, especially for women and marginalized figures

While not a stand-alone narrative, this relaxed and reflective episode enriches the core historical research by offering personal context and broader musings on the complexities of being human—in all things clean and messy.