Behind the Scenes Minis: All Things Clean

Summary

Podcast Summary: Stuff You Missed in History Class – Behind the Scenes Minis: All Things Clean

Release Date: September 12, 2025
Hosts: Tracy V. Wilson and Holly Fry
Podcast Network: iHeartPodcasts

---

Overview

In this "Behind the Scenes Minis" segment, Tracy and Holly reflect on their recent main episode focused on soap, saponification, cleanliness, and the historical and social evolution of hygiene. The conversation also delves into related topics raised by listener questions and their own research, ranging from the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on public perceptions of cleanliness, to the roles of notable historical figures in the science of disease transmission, and even personal anecdotes about scents and soap preferences.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis of the Soap Episode

• Tracy's Professional Background: Tracy shares that her prior experience writing about cleaning and sanitation products inspired her early ideas for soap-related episodes. She describes how this previous knowledge made the topic a natural fit when starting with the podcast (03:00).
• Listener Requests: The actual episode was eventually prompted by renewed listener interest, compelling Tracy to revisit and update her historical and scientific knowledge of soap.

2. Soap in Popular Culture and History

• Saponification and Fight Club: The hosts reminisce about their past episode on the "lady who turned to soap" and recognize how soap-making, particularly the rendering of fat, became a memorable plot point in Fight Club. Both remark on how the film/book uses soap as a metaphor for the sanitized facade of society hiding the "dirty" realities behind cleanliness (05:01 & 05:16).
  • Quote:

    “I can’t think about soap without thinking about Fight Club a lot.”
    — Holly Fry (05:10)

3. COVID-19 and the New Soap Awareness

• Pandemic-Induced Cleanliness: Tracy observes that numerous articles resurfaced in 2020 due to COVID-19, reiterating the basics of hand-washing to a population seemingly unaware of standard hygiene.
  • Quote:

    “It feels like to a segment of people, the idea that you should wash your hands for 30 seconds was new information.”
    — Tracy V. Wilson (06:06)

• Soap vs. Detergents: The discussion highlights the confusion over what constitutes “real” soap, including debates about the Dove Beauty Bar and the efficacy of surfactants for hand hygiene.

4. Soap Scents, Fragrances, and Marketing

• Personal Scent Preferences: Holly admits to being “a sucker” for scented soaps, especially pumpkin, and humorously embraces her “basic woman” identity for loving pumpkin-scented laundry detergent (08:01 & 08:19).
  • Quote:

    "Every marketer that makes Frou Frou Radonka Doodle soap that smells like cake, candy and pumpkins... they're like, what's Holly Fry's email address?"
    — Holly Fry (08:48)

• Origins of Marketing Cleanliness: Tracy describes how the mass production and marketing of soap “invented” certain social anxieties, like body odor, in order to sell products, comparing it to the coining of “halitosis” to sell mouthwash (09:25).

5. Cultural Standards of Cleanliness

• International Differences: Social expectations for cleanliness vary widely. Tracy shares a story about a friend returning from France, frustrated at the daily showering required in the U.S. versus more relaxed norms abroad (11:41).
  • Quote:

    “…in the US it has to be every day… if she wasn’t showering before going out, she was doing something wrong.”
    — Tracy V. Wilson (12:20)

• Individual Preferences: Both hosts talk about hair washing routines and how they differ by hair texture, race, and personal comfort. Tracy notes her own experience as someone with oily hair and skepticism about advice to “train” her hair by washing less (14:08).

6. Soap, Cleanliness, and Social Pressures

• Homogenization of Cleanliness: The drive for “ultimate cleanliness” is discussed as both a social construct and a personal challenge, with the hosts critiquing the unrealistic or unnecessary pressures that arise (13:50).
• Historical and Cultural Context: Books focused solely on cleanliness (not just soap) are mentioned as valuable for understanding how societies develop and enforce standards—though Tracy deliberately avoided diving too deep to keep her research episode-focused (15:00).

7. Ventilation, Disease Transmission, and the Wellses

• Historical Lessons Resurfacing: Tracy reflects on the research of William Firth Wells and Mildred Weeks Wells regarding indoor ventilation and aerosol disease transmission, and how 2020s debates echo their findings from a century ago (20:10).
  • Quote:

    “We could have been living in a world where there was enough ventilation and enough indoor air sanitation that maybe [illness at conventions] would not have just been viewed as probable [and] inevitable...”
    — Tracy V. Wilson (21:36)

• Experimental History: The hosts discuss the COVID-19 pandemic’s clarity on airborne disease, “con crud,” and whether better historical attention to ventilation would have changed outcomes or lessened public resistance to health interventions.

8. Biographical Mysteries: The Wellses’ Personal Lives

• Limited Personal Information: Tracy laments the lack of biographical depth on the Wellses, especially Mildred, whose career and family background (including her father’s embezzlement scandal) are obscure and sometimes conflicting. She describes using Carl Zimmer’s book "Airborne" to chase down elusive details (30:43).

• Marital Dynamics: The end of William and Mildred’s partnership—both personal and professional—is discussed. They remained married but lived mostly separate lives for years, a situation reflective of social norms about divorce at the time (33:26).

  • Quote:

    “For all practical purposes, they were not married, even though they were legally still married.”
    — Tracy V. Wilson (33:51)

• Working Couples: Holly and Tracy discuss the potential stress of married couples working together, recalling both negative and positive cases, and noting how modern workplaces often try to manage such dynamics with strict policies (34:14).

• Son’s Life and Discrepancies: There’s confusion over inconsistent historical descriptions of the Wellses’ son, with some sources labeling him as intellectually disabled, others citing mental illness. Tracy stresses the ongoing need for more accurate and respectful discussions of mental health (36:16).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On pandemic handwashing awareness:

  "It feels like to a segment of people, the idea that you should wash your hands for 30 seconds was new information."
  — Tracy V. Wilson (06:06)

• On soap marketing:

  "Some of the marketing of soap invented some concepts related to things like body odor as a product that needed to...be resolved through the use of soap."
  — Tracy V. Wilson (09:25)

• On international hygiene norms:

  “...now I have to spend all this time every single day showering and washing my hair. Because while I was in France, it was socially acceptable to, like, have a couple of days pass.”
  — Tracy V. Wilson (12:20)

• On conventions and airborne disease:

  "We could have been living in a world where there was enough ventilation and...air sanitation that maybe [con crud] would not have just been viewed as probable, inevitable..."
  — Tracy V. Wilson (21:36)

• On documentation gaps and mental health:

  “People’s situations get described incorrectly all the time…we need more information, not less.”
  — Holly Fry (37:33)

---

Key Timestamps

• 03:00 — Tracy explains her background and why soap was a starter topic
• 05:01 — Saponification, soap lore, and Fight Club references
• 06:06 — Pandemic hygiene revelations; the public’s “surprise” at hand-washing
• 08:01 — Soap scents and personal preferences
• 09:25 — Discussion on the role of marketing in cleanliness standards
• 12:20 — Cross-cultural differences in bathing and cleanliness expectations
• 14:08 — Curly vs. straight hair and differing hygiene routines
• 20:10 — Reflections on William and Mildred Wells, and airborne disease research
• 21:36 — Ventilation, “con crud,” and historical disease prevention strategies
• 30:43 — The difficulties of uncovering the Wellses’ biographies
• 33:26 — Relationship dynamics and separation of William and Mildred Wells
• 36:16 — Contradictory historical reporting on the Wellses’ son’s mental health

---

Tone and Style

Tracy and Holly maintain their signature blend of intellectual curiosity, humor, and empathy. They strike a thoughtful balance between historical research, personal anecdote, and social critique, often poking gentle fun at themselves (especially in matters of soap scent obsession) while maintaining respect for serious historical and societal issues.

---

For Listeners New and Old

This episode offers:

• Insightful perspectives on how history, science, and marketing shape our ideas about cleanliness
• A reminder of the ways pandemics resurface forgotten knowledge and habits
• Relatable stories about personal preferences and the pressures of conformity
• Candid commentary on the difficulties of reconstructing nuanced historical biographies, especially for women and marginalized figures

While not a stand-alone narrative, this relaxed and reflective episode enriches the core historical research by offering personal context and broader musings on the complexities of being human—in all things clean and messy.

Transcript

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is an I Heart podcast.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to your elders, honey. You might know them from their viral videos, but now the old gays are pulling back the curtain with their new podcast, Silver Linings with the Old Gays, brought to you in partnership with iHeart's Ruby Studio and Veeve Healthcare. Hosts Robert, Mick, Bill and Jesse serve their lifetime of wisdom when it comes to love, sex, community and whatever else they've got on the gay agenda. So check out Silver Linings with the old gays on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? WashablesOfAs.com has your back featuring the Annabe collection, the only designer sofa that's machine washable inside and out. Where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slipcovers made with performance fabrics. Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your Anna Bay sofa backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return, shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

High Key Listen to High Key, a new weekly podcast.

[Holly Fry]

You better listen.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Speaking of tanning, I was sunning my nether regions cause I read that you're supposed to like get sun not only in your mouth but also in your other orifices.

[Holly Fry]

Wait, are you talking about you put.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Your hole into the sun?

[Holly Fry]

I did.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

That's crazy. Downward dog mooning the sun. I was gonna say. Is it cheeks open? It's cheeks open all the way wide. Is your cheeks open? Uh huh. Who's holding them? Enough of that nonsense.

[Holly Fry]

Now listen to High key on the.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Iheartrad app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Hello Divorce Advertiser]

Hello Divorce? Are you surprised by a divorce ad for hellodivorce.com? don't be. We all know someone dealing with divorce right now. Maybe even closer to you than you think. Instead of watching them struggle emotionally and financially, let them know about hello divorce.com. they provide expert guidance, simple tools and affordable solutions before, during or after divorce. Be the friend who helps ease their stress and saves them money Tell them to visit hellodivorce.com today.

[Holly Fry]

Welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartradio.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson. And I'm Holly Fry. We talked about soap this week. Yeah, we did. Here's a little backstory for why I had it on my list. When Holly and I first joined the podcast, we were moving from another podcast that we'd worked on together, had a totally different focus. And I tried to line myself up some initial starting episodes that I already had more background familiarity with to make this transitional process, hopefully, easier so that I could have a sort of learning by doing of how to research and write these episodes with some stuff that I already had some foundational knowledge in to make it a little easier. And one of those topics was soap. Because one of my previous jobs was writing for a company that sold cleaning and sanitation products. And I wrote, like, product literature. I wrote newsletters for the businesses that we did business with. So I already had knowledge of various things related to soap and saponification and how soap was made and that story about the animal sacrifices being burned and washed down the mountain, all of that. And then part of it was like, is anybody else interested in this, in the aspects of it that I find interesting? I don't really know. And then part of it was just, you know, over time, I didn't feel like I quite needed the training wheel of things. I already felt like I could almost write off the top of my head, and I never got around to it. But then we got a request for it, so. Great. Bring it back. Relearn stuff that I have forgotten in the. At this point, more than 20. Well, more than 20 years since I had that job.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I have.

[Holly Fry]

We talked about saponification a lot in.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

The episode we did on the lady.

[Holly Fry]

Who Turned to Soap.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, yeah. Which I forgot. I have not re. Listened to that. And I remember doing the episode, but, like, the details of it are not in my brain.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. And I, of course, can't think about soap without thinking about Fight Club a lot.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, yeah. I also thought about Fight Club a lot. And about how to make soap, we must first render fat.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. Which is.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I mean.

[Holly Fry]

Right. Like in Chuck Palahniuk's book and in the subsequent film. Right. It's referencing all of the dirty things that have to happen to make soap.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

And how that compares to our modern society, which looks very sanitized in many ways, but is ignoring all of the dirty things that have to happen to give you that sanitized experience.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Uh huh.

[Holly Fry]

I really love that book.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I really hate that a lot of.

[Holly Fry]

People'S takeaway was like, violence is cool. And it's like you have missed the point entirely.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

And I really love that movie as well.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

One of the things that I noticed while doing this research is that a whole bunch of articles about soap were written in 2020 because of COVID Yeah. A lot of discussion of where soap came from. This is one of the things that I have found weird about the beginning of COVID is that it feels like to a segment of people, the idea that you should wash your hands for 30 seconds was new information. Yeah. And stretching back to that job that I had where we sold cleaning and sanitation products to restaurants and grocery stores. Like, I had been washing my hands. I had always been washing my hands regularly, but specifically washing my hands for 30 seconds with a little thing playing in my brain to make sure that I washed it for long enough. Like that goes back to doing that job more than 20 years ago. And so the seemingly surprise information that it seemed like about, yes, you should wash your hands and you should use soap, I was like, we should have all been doing this already all of the time. And another thing that happened around that time was that there was kind of a little bit of freakout about whether it was okay to use the Dove beauty bar, marketed as one quarter moisturizing cream, to wash your hands during the time of COVID Yeah. Because it's not actually soap. The answer, yes, it's fine. It's fine to do that. It's not technically soap. It does include surfactants. And the surfactants are the important part to cleaning your hands sufficiently by washing them. Yeah. Every time I came across another article that I was like, oh, and this is also from 2020, when everyone was thinking about soap. I'm still thinking about soap. Still washing my hands.

[Holly Fry]

I mean, listen, take away all of the cleanliness specific needs. Not entirely, but like, I'm always thinking about soap. Cause it smells good. I'm a sucker, man. Put pumpkin scent in a soap. I'm buying it.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

This is the first year that I've seen and I know there are people that are gonna groan at what I'm about to say. And yes, I am the most basic woman alive. But this year, for the first time, I found pumpkin scented laundry detergent. I bought like a case of it. I love that business. I want pumpkin everything, so. And I want it year round. So yeah, I'm all about that. Every marketer that makes Frou Frou Radonka Doodle soap that smells like cake, candy and pumpkins. They're like, what's Holly Fry's email address? We're a little short this quarter.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

We gotta just send them directly to.

[Holly Fry]

Holly marketing her way. Cause we know this will pan out.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The fragrances are also like, almost a whole separate history from the soap and something that I did not get into here. I read an article that was not exactly, like, debunking the. The whole thing about using ash on wool and it would combine with lanolin to make soap.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It didn't feel like it had been written specifically to debunk that idea. It was more like, here is an experimental approach to this historical fact of how people might have discovered soap. And this experiment was like, yeah, with the wool and the lanolin that did not actually make soap. But one thing that they found that did make soap was cleaning the, like, cheesecloth type of cloths that would have been used in perfume making, where the. The perfume making would have involved. Involved, like, an oil and the fragrance, and then repeatedly cycling through the oil and the fragrance to, like, make the perfume that would stick on your body. And then you would have these cloths left over, and you would need to wash the cloths, and they would be embedded at that point, fats that had been used in the perfume making process. And that really did yield more soap, but is not what was mentioned in those Sumerian tablets. I found that very interesting. I also found it very interesting about how some of the marketing of soap as soap became like a real commercial industrial product, invented some concepts related to things like body odor as a product that needed to. Or as an issue that needed to be resolved through the use of soap. And it reminded me a little bit of the coining of the term halitosis to sell mouthwash. Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

I do have a question.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay.

[Holly Fry]

Because those things existed.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, sure, sure.

[Holly Fry]

Bad breath and body odor did exist.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yes.

[Holly Fry]

So there is, like, a fine line of, we've solved this problem versus any amount of this makes you wrong. Sure. Right. And did you find in any of your research, like, that tipping point where it started to be like, nothing that tips off the robots that you're human should be allowed.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I found kind of oblique references to that and to, like, the differing standards around the world.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like, when I was in college, I had a girlfriend who spent a summer or a year abroad in France. And when she got back, she was like, I am so mad that now I have to spend all this time every Single day showering and washing my hair. Because while I was in France, it was socially acceptable to, like, have a couple of days pass. Like, I still felt like I was okay to be out in public if it had been a day or two since taking a shower.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But here in the US it has to be every day. And it has to be, like, the amount of time it's taking me to wash my hair, every day really sucks. And I'm mad that this is, like, what I have to spend my time on. And I have no concept of, like, whether she felt like she had a perceptible difference in her level of hygiene with an American versus a French standard. But she definitely felt like in the United States, if she wasn't going out and, like, if she wasn't showering before going out, that she was doing something wrong. Does that make sense? Yeah. I'm sure there's probably anthropological and sociological study onto those questions. Yeah. And like, more specifically, how those standards are determined and then socially maintained.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

It's super fascinating. I mean, there are also just like. The other element of it is that there are also just personal preferences within that spectrum. Right. Of, like.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

I do not like when my hair is not freshly washed.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Me too.

[Holly Fry]

But I know a lot of people who actually think their hair looks better on, like, the second or third day, and they don't wash even every time they shower, which is totally fine. But, like, everybody has, like, a different space in there where they feel comfortable, so it becomes a weird.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

The sort of, like, homogenization of, like, ultimate cleanliness as the goal.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, sure.

[Holly Fry]

Is always a little bit silly and weird to me.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Sometimes an algorithm will take me onto. I will, like, wind up in curly hair maintenance videos.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, I get so many of those.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Which is, like, a very different. Very different kind of care than my hair, which is very straight and less now that I'm older, but from my teens through age 40, was also very oily. And if I did not wash it every day, it felt gross. And while, like, natural skin and body care companies would be like, if you're doing it every day, you're stripping the oils, and if you just stop, then it will regulate itself. I did not find that to be true ever. But, like, a lot of people whose hair is really curly or people of different races and ethnic. Ethnicities.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, for sure.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Daily shampooing. A hundred percent bad idea.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I would wager that the couple of books that are more focused on cleanliness than on soap, which came up in my research But I did not get, I did not try to check them out or anything because I thought that they would probably just take me down rabbit holes that were not going to help.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Probably have a lot more of stuff about that like when, like how cultures develop their idea of what clean is and how often showering needs to happen to be considered clean.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, yeah. And then there are cats that don't bathe at all. It's fine. They're fine.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

They bathe with their mouths.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, yeah. Listen, we're in prime soap season so I'm excited right now anyway.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Getting all the hand soaps stocking up for the year. I have a, you know, personal everyday is Halloween soap rule. So there are always things that smell like autumnal stuff for the most part with occasional bubble gums and roses thrown in.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

I am that person that has a stockpile of every scent you could possibly wish for.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

It's a storage problem. It's not a problem in my heart, just a problem of space.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right. There are definitely like a number of soaps and lotions and things that smell particularly good to me that I especially like using and they make me feel a little happier. There have been times that I have like been on a vacation and whatever product line was being used in the hotel or like the spa, if I had a spa visit has just made me feel so happy that I've been like, I'm buying that and taking it home with me.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. All the time.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So. Yeah. Yeah. Currently I have a lotion that I'm using that is came directly. It's a vacation lotion that is making my lotioning process happens like a little luxury every single day.

[Holly Fry]

Vacation lotion.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Aw.

[WashablesOfS.com Advertiser]

Picture it. 1852, a scandal erupts in Charleston. Not over politics, but over a ruined velvet settee. A guest spilled Madeira wine and tried to blame the dog. If only they'd had an annabe washable. Comfortable, practically drama proof. A modern sofa for lives as messy as history itself. Built with machine washable covers, modular design and customizable comfort. It's made to survive every single spill, splash and social mishap. Starting at just $6.99 and with up to 60% off right now. There's never been a better time to upgrade. So skip the scandal, head to washablesofas.com and relax, knowing history won't repeat itself in your living room. Shop Annabe today at washablesofas.com and get 60% off your new washable sofa. That's washablesofas.com.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to your elders, honey. You might know them from their viral videos, but now the Old Gays pull back the curtain on their brand new podcast Silver Linings with the Old Gays, brought to you in partnership with iHeart's Ruby Studio and Veeve Healthcare. With over 300 years of experience between them, hosts Robert, Mick, Bill and Jesse serve four lifetimes of wisdom when it comes to love, sex, community and whatever else they've got on the gay achievement agenda. Listen in to these fabulous friends swap stories exploring how queer life has evolved over the decades and the silver linings they've collected along the way. Each episode dives into hot topics from safe sex and online dating to untangling Gen Z lingo, as well as insights on how music, art and fashion show up in queer culture. So check out Silver Linings, a show about how pride ages like fine wine. Available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Wouldn't it be great to never buy gas again? EVs are as easy to charge as your phone and they are a perfect addition to your everyday life. Most people are only driving about 40 miles a day and most EVs can handle 200 to 400 miles of range on a charge. And there are hundreds of EV models available today, so there's something perfect for every lifestyle and budget. I drive an ev. I've had it for a couple of years. It's my favorite car I've ever owned. It is so fun to drive. The pickup is incredible. It's a super agile and it is easy to maintain. The way forward is electric. Learn [e-mail] hey listeners, if you're planning a family trip to Orlando this summer to be transported to magical universes, there's one portal you don't want to miss. Your portal to the original universe Kennedy Space Center Visitor Complex where they have flying dragons too. It's about science. No spells required. Walk beneath a Falcon nine, touch a moon rock and come face to face with space shuttle Atlantis. You can even meet an astronaut. And get this, our friends at Kennedy Space center are offering $7 off admission with the code HISTORY7 Discover something real.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

We talked about William Firth Wells and Mildred Weeks Wells. Inspired by an episode of 99% invisible that made me real mad. I re listened to our Max Von Pettenkofer episode, which is one of the things that was discussed in that 99% invisible episode. They were sort of focused on how Max Von Pettenkofer was one of the last people to like really hype up the idea that miasmas were spreading disease when the rest of the scientific and medical community was almost entirely at that point accepting the germ theory of disease and how he was wrong about a lot of stuff, but he was right about some things. Like he was right about indoor ventilation being really important to help reduce the spread of indoor diseases. And so it was very funny to me when I like listened to this episode of 99% invisible and got progressively more frustrated. And then I re listened to that episode and was like, oh, I didn't find this extreme. I didn't find this frustrating at all when we recorded it, which I think was in early 2020 if I'm remembering correctly, because like the following five years had not happened yet. Right. But I. One of the things that I have found frustrating over the last five years is that the COVID pandemic made it so crystal clear that illnesses that spread through the respiratory system can be spread very easily in indoor environments with bad ventilation, especially if they are crowded. And like, even back in the 2020 into 2021 time period, I was like, man, we just sort of accepted the fact that if you go to a con, you're probably going to come home with concret. We could have been living in a world where there was enough ventilation and enough indoor air sanitation that maybe that would not have just been viewed as like the probable inevitable likelihood of going to a convention. And this is the same kind of stuff that Mildred and Richard were talking about like a hundred years ago. I feel you. Uh huh.

[Holly Fry]

But the way I con, that wouldn't have mattered.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Like I think if you're a person that goes to panels and maybe does other stuff, but if you're like going somewhere like Dragon Con, where it's like huge drink ups, like people, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know that any amount of air fix it can counter a bunch of drunk people singing in each other's faces is what I'm saying.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right. Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

So I think some of that is situational for sure. And I mean some cons probably have a different vibe than that. But I think so much of the con experience is about connecting with the people you don't get to see all the time. And it does tend to devolve into a little bit of, you know, nerdy gras bacchanalia that it may not have helped that much. That may or may not make you feel any better about it. It still sucks nobody was doing it.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But yeah, yeah, I feel like we.

[Holly Fry]

Would have all had to do Dexter's Lab style personal lamination to actually prevent Kon Crud.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Well, and I'm, I'm not saying it would have possibly eliminated Kon Crud entirely, but like, reduced it. Fewer illnesses. And then, you know, I also sort of thought about their work with measles, which, you know, was then not that long after, I think after. I don't remember the exact timeline. Even though we've done an episode on measles, like measles became preventable through a vaccine. But at the time that they were doing this work, it was not. And so it was seen as inevitable that children would get measles at some point during their childhood, most likely. And if not, they would get measles at some point eventually. And so it just sort of was accepted as inevitable that kids going to school would get measles and their work seemed promising, at least as far as slowing down the spread of a measles outbreak. So it wasn't a sudden, intense crisis. Could that have been built on to, like, more stop the spread of measles instead of slowing it down? Maybe things that are not quite as aggressively contagious as measles. Because measles is incredibly contagious. It's like one of the most contagious illnesses that we know about. Could that have dropped way down the amount of disease, the amount of disease risk? I also have frustrations in part because in the last three years or so, I think the 5ish, like respiratory illnesses that I have gotten, three were contracted almost certainly at the doctor or dentist office. Yeah. And where, you know, I was not having face to face contact with anyone other than the doctor or the dental hygienist, but was in a facility where the air had been breathed into by lots of other people for a very long time, which is the kind of stuff that their research seemed the most. The most likely of, like slowing down.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And then I also just have the general question of, like, if we had been living in a world where there was already a focus, like a very strong focus on indoor ventilation and indoor air sanitation, if that would have meant less transmission of COVID less need for as many long term interventions against Covid, and if that might have meant less of a backlash to the idea of public health than what we are living through in this moment, who knows? That's all very speculative. Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

This is unfortunately, Milan Kundera's unbearable likeness of being.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

You can only have one life experience.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Sure.

[Holly Fry]

You can't know what the other possibilities would have been.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It is a Good point. It's also normal to kind of wonder about this stuff and speculate.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, of course, of course.

[WashablesOfS.com Advertiser]

Picture it. 1852 A scandal erupts in Charleston not over politics, but over a ruined velvet settee. A guest spilled Madeira wine and tried to blame the dog. If only they'd had an annabe Washable. Comfortable, practically drama proof. A modern sofa for lives as messy as history itself. Built with machine washable, covers modular design and customizable comfort, it's made to serve, survive every spill, splash and social mishap. Starting at just $6.99 and with up to 60% off right now, there's never been a better time to upgrade. So skip the scandal, head to washablesofas.com and relax, knowing history won't repeat itself in your living room. Shop Annabe today at washablesofas.com and get 60% off your new washable so sofa.

[Holly Fry]

That's washablesofas.com Listen to your elders, honey. You might know them from their viral videos, but now the old Gays pull back the curtain on their brand new podcast, Silver Linings with the Old Gays, brought to you in partnership with iHeart's Ruby Studio and Vive Healthcare. With over 300 years of experience between them, hosts Robert, Mick, Bill and Jesse serve four lifetimes of wisdom when it comes to love, sex, community and whatever else they've got the gay Agenda. Listen in to these fabulous friends swap stories exploring how queer life has evolved over the decades and the silver linings they've collected along the way. Each episode dives into hot topics from safe sex and online dating to untangling Gen Z lingo, as well as insights on how music, art and fashion show up in queer culture. So check out Silver Linings, a show about how pride ages like fine wine. Available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Wouldn't it be great to never buy gas again? EVs are as easy to charge as your phone, and they are a perfect addition to your everyday life. Most people are only driving about 40 miles a day, and most EVs can handle 200 to 400 miles of range on a charge. And there are hundreds of EV models available today, so there's something perfect for every lifestyle and budget. I drive an ev. I've had it for a couple of years. It's my favorite car I've ever owned. It is so fun to drive. The pickup is incredible. It's super agile and it is easy to maintain. The way forward is electric learn [e-mail] hey, listeners, if you're planning a family trip to Orlando this summer to be transported to magical universes, there's one portal you don't want to miss. Your portal to the original Kennedy Space center visitor complex, where they have flying dragons, too. It's about science. No spells required. Walk beneath a Falcon nine, touch a moon rock, and come face to face with space shuttle Atlantis. You can even meet an astronaut. And get this, our friends at Kennedy Space center are offering $7 off admission with the code HISTORY7. Discover something real.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So, yeah, I am also interested and glad to know that there was that Mildred Weeks Wells was like, working at the capacity that she was working at during the time that she was. Even though she was paid way less or not paid at all. Because we don't hear nearly as much about women doing that kind of work during that period, for sure.

[Holly Fry]

Do you, like me, wanna know all of the dirt on what happened with their marriage?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I want so much more personal information about each of them. That's why I said at the top of the episode that I have not read this book, Airborne by Carl Zimmer. I did get it. I got it the last thing in research. Like, I had already read all of these other papers and all of these other article. I had already, like, I had gotten William's entire book. Like, I had done all of this stuff. And I was like, man, not only is. Not only do I have almost no biographical information about either of them, some of the information that I do have, I am confused by. Like, I was, for example, very confused by what was going on with Mildred's father's embezzlement thing, right? And I was having a really hard time finding any reporting about it. So I finally got this book to, like, just sort of try to confirm details about the two of them, which is one portion of that book. The biggest thing that helped me there was learning that her father's. The reporting around her father's accusation, accusations and trial. And all of that had been reported with his first and middle initial and not his whole first name. Which that finally led me to newspaper articles that I could read about it. Whereas before that I was finding basically nothing. And I was like, what is this financial mismanagement thing in Texas that I can't seem to find anything about that.

[Holly Fry]

Seems to be a big secret?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Seems. Yeah. And like, all of the brief write ups of her grandfather are almost glowing in how they talk about him. And I was like, but it seems like there was an embezzlement thing. Like what? Having a really hard time. So, yeah, the fact that so much of that is just, like, a total mystery. I wish we knew more, and I definitely wish we knew more about some of the more gossipy stuff, like, what specifically happened in their marriage. Was it really that the two of them were just difficult to work with that led to their losing their jobs? Like.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. I also, you know, it seems like you did this research, so you might have insight that I wouldn't. But as we get to the end of their story where they just kind of, like, are working on their own things, I'm like, is this one of those instances where they were living at a time where it was a little more stigmatized to get divorced and so they essentially were separated in behavior, but maybe not in declaration.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. They were still legally married until the end of their lives, as far as I know, but just not.

[Holly Fry]

Didn't seem to be living a life together at all.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

No. Mildred did move to another city with Bud, and even then, it still seems like he was spending some of his time with them, but not, like, living with them full time.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I'm imagining to, like, maintain a relationship with his son in some way could be a reason for that. But, yeah, it seems like for all practical purposes, they were not married, even though they were legally still married. And they were definitely not really research partners anymore in the last few years of their career after approximately 1944.

[Holly Fry]

And then I think about married couples who work together.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, yeah.

[Holly Fry]

And how often that creates really toxic situations. And I'm like, yeah, I could maybe see where people would want to be around. You know, I used to work for a married couple, and it was a nightmare because I realized that they would argue through their employees.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

And, like, just. It just created havoc, and it sucked. And I know people do it.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Well, in so many companies today have rules about, like, if married couples are both employed here, they cannot work in the same department. They cannot.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

They, like, they, especially one of them, cannot supervise the other one.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And then in academia, there's this whole idea of, like, the, quote, trailing spouse, where, like, one spouse is the spouse that the college or university wants to hire, but they are married, and they can only afford to move if the spouse can also find work. And, like, that's a whole thing. Yeah. But the two of them were, like, they were in a situation where they were. They were both working in the same department. I don't think he was technically her supervisor, but, like, yeah, they were working together on all of these things. Together and he was paid more than she was, if she was paid at all. Yeah. And that does seem just like a dynamic that would be difficult to deal with.

[Holly Fry]

I feel compelled to say I have worked with other married couples that were amazing.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Sure.

[Holly Fry]

And did not have toxic garbage. In fact, one married couple that I started working at this company and I didn't know they were married for a long time because they were so hyper professional about like not in any way being in each other's business at work.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, oh. I wonder all of the secret I do too meanderings of the Welles's.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I also wonder about their son because like everything that was written about him was. Was pretty general. And also some of the ways that people described him contradicted each other. Like there was one paper, the paper that was sort of about the tuberculosis experiments that was written after his death. Use a word that we do not use today to describe him as intellectually disabled. But there was also a doctor who examined him when he was being institutionalized that was like, I don't think he has an intellectual disability based on his vocabulary and like what we can tell about his cognition. And his assessment was that it was a mental illness that involved psychosis and was possibly schizophrenia. Incredibly different from how another account had described him. So I don't really know.

[Holly Fry]

I think that's a good example of why it is important that there has been and it's changing now. And I hope it continues to like that thing where people are reticent when it comes to speaking about any such things. And as a consequence there is a big gap in understanding.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

So people's situations get described incorrectly all the time.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

And I think it's getting better. But that is a problem. Right. Like, yeah, I understand for some people it is uncomfortable or they don't want to discuss such things or they're worried they will say the wrong thing.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

But yeah, it's a. It's tricky. And yeah, we need more information, not less correct. Not necessarily about any one given person, but about the possible various things that a person can. Can be and have and do.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, I agree.

[Holly Fry]

Anyway, that's my nerdy hippie moment today.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I love nerdy hippie moments. Whatever's happening on your weekends, I hope it is as. As lovely as it possibly can be. We will be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow. You will have something brand new on Monday. Stuff you missed in history class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Anabe, you never have to stress about Messes again. @washablesofas.com Discover Anabe Sofas the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stainless steel resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made their the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change, and certain restrictions may apply.

[Holly Fry]

At T. Rowe Price, their experience helps them see investment potential differently. Instead of quick answers, they know that what really leads to confident investing is true curiosity. And since you're listening to this podcast, we know you value curiosity too. It's what drives them to ask the questions that really matter in our ever changing world, like can health healthcare innovations create a healthier world? And how will AI be a part of a new tomorrow? Just like you, their curiosity runs deep, and with it comes the power to help you invest more confidently. Better questions, better outcomes. T. Rowe Price Learn more@t rowprice.com Curiosity.

[Hello Divorce Advertiser]

For years, everyone thought Verizon had the best network because they did. But now the best mobile network in the US is T Mobile. T Mobile's network has the most advanced 5G with more towers, and their signal reaches further than ever. So you can text an Insta talk and say, you won't believe where I am. T Mobile has the best mobile Network in the US based on analysis by Ooklev Speed Test Intelligence Data 1H2025CT mobile.comNetwork Divorce can leave you feeling isolated, like you're stuck on an island with no direction. But you don't have to go through it alone. At hello Divorce, we guide you step by step, offering everything from legal advice to financial planning so you can find your way back to solid ground for 90% less. Start your divorce journey with the support you [e-mail] and schedule a free consultation.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is an iHeart podcast.