Behind the Scenes Minis: Complicated Ely

Summary

Stuff You Missed in History Class: Behind the Scenes Minis: Complicated Ely

Release Date: December 13, 2024
Hosts: Tracy V. Wilson & Holly Fry
Production: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction and Technical Challenges

Timestamp: [03:27 – 04:10]

Tracy V. Wilson and Holly Fry open the episode with a candid update about technical difficulties that forced them to re-record the episode. Tracy reassures listeners that only the behind-the-scenes content is affected, and the actual episodes remain intact. She explains, “we are recording this episode four weeks after the one that we recorded on Sarah Winnemucca, but they are only coming out like two weeks apart” (04:11).

Introducing Ely S. Parker: A Complex Historical Figure

Timestamp: [04:10 – 06:05]

The discussion swiftly transitions to their main topic: Ely S. Parker, a prominent Indigenous leader whose life and decisions have sparked significant debate among historians and his community. Tracy reflects on Parker's role and influence, noting, “Ely S. Parker became the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and was making these policies related to all of the Indigenous people in the United States. And, you know, a lot of those decisions [continue] to have impact and influence today” (04:50).

Balancing Two Worlds and Personal Ambition

Timestamp: [06:05 – 07:01]

Tracy delves deeper into Parker’s personal motivations and the pressures he faced, highlighting the vision his mother had for him to succeed in both Indigenous and white societies. She muses, “I always wonder how much that was informing his decisions, whether consciously or subconsciously” (06:05). The hosts compare Parker’s experience to the pressures faced by fictional characters like Anakin Skywalker from Star Wars, emphasizing the burden of expectations and its impact on decision-making.

Impact of Policies and Community Perception

Timestamp: [07:01 – 09:22]

Holly discusses the 1999 PBS documentary on Parker, which includes insights from Indigenous historians and leaders. The documentary critiques Parker’s ambition, suggesting it led to decisions perceived as betrayals by his people. She states, “a lot of them really talked about his personal ambition and how they felt like his personal ambition had led him to make decisions that were a betrayal of his people and his roots” (07:01). Tracy draws parallels to their previous episode on Sarah Winnemucca, emphasizing the communal decision-making contrasts with Parker’s individual approach.

Ely S. Parker’s Multifaceted Legacy

Timestamp: [09:22 – 11:13]

The hosts explore Parker’s myriad accomplishments beyond his political role, including his engineering work and his crucial involvement in the Civil War as the person who drafted the surrender terms at Appomattox. Holly remarks, “Truly a remarkable life... he wrote out the surrender terms at Appomattox during the Civil War, all of those things are fascinating to me” (08:50). They also touch upon his portrayal in cinema, noting the underrepresentation and oversimplification of his contributions, with minimal dialogue in films that fail to capture his deep relationship with Ulysses S. Grant.

Conclusion and Upcoming Episodes

Timestamp: [11:13 – End]

As the episode wraps up, Tracy and Holly express their anticipation for future episodes, including a new one on Monday. They emphasize the importance of understanding complex historical figures like Ely S. Parker to gain a nuanced perspective of history and its lasting effects on contemporary Indigenous communities.

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Notable Quotes

• Tracy V. Wilson:
  “[...] Ely S. Parker became the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and was making these policies related to all of the Indigenous people in the United States. And, you know, a lot of those decisions continuing to have impact and influence today.” (04:50)

• Tracy V. Wilson:
  “I always wonder how much that was informing his decisions, whether consciously or subconsciously.” (06:05)

• Holly Fry:
  “Truly a remarkable life, though. Like, even if we stopped before becoming Commissioner of Indian affairs, the process of, like, going through an education and becoming an engineer and doing the engineering work that he did...” (08:50)

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Key Insights and Discussions

1. Dual Identity and Pressure:
   Ely S. Parker navigated the complexities of maintaining his Indigenous identity while assimilating into white American society. This duality created internal and external pressures that influenced his professional and personal decisions.

2. Impact of Personal Ambition:
   The hosts discuss how Parker’s ambition to excel in English language and engineering, and his pursuit of power, were viewed by his community as potentially betraying their cultural roots and collaborative decision-making traditions.

3. Policy Legacy:
   As Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Parker's policies have had lasting effects, shaping the dynamics between Indigenous communities and the U.S. government. The episode underscores the importance of examining these policies to understand their ongoing relevance.

4. Representation in Media:
   Parker's minimal portrayal in films highlights a broader issue of underrepresentation of Indigenous leaders in mainstream media, which often fails to capture the depth of their contributions and relationships.

5. Comparative Perspectives:
   Drawing parallels with Sarah Winnemucca, the hosts highlight different Indigenous leaders' approaches to assimilation and leadership, emphasizing the diversity of experiences and strategies within Indigenous communities during the 19th century.

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Concluding Thoughts

Tracy V. Wilson and Holly Fry provide a thorough and thoughtful examination of Ely S. Parker's life, balancing his achievements with the controversies surrounding his policies and personal motivations. By delving into his multifaceted legacy, the hosts encourage listeners to reflect on the complexities of leadership and cultural identity within historical contexts. This episode not only sheds light on a significant yet often overlooked figure but also invites a deeper understanding of the broader Indigenous experience in American history.

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For more episodes and to continue exploring fascinating historical narratives, visit the iHeartRadio website.

Transcript

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You missed in History Class, a production of iHeartradio.

[Hoda Kotb]

Hello and happy Friday. I am Tracy V. Wilson. And I'm Holly Fry. This week, number one, just so listeners know, we're having to record this completely over because of a technical problem. Hopefully just the behind the scenes, not the actual episodes. Those sounded okay. Fingers crossed. But in addition to that, because of our travel schedule and also how we like to have two part episodes run the same week without other stuff in between them, we are recording this episode four weeks after the one that we recorded on Sarah Winnemucca, but they are only coming out like two weeks apart.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

So it's going to feel kind of like there's a theme for a period of time in the podcast that in terms of when we actually recorded things farther apart. Also, researching Sarah Winnemucca and the brief reference to the peace policy in that episode was definitely what led me to wanting to talk about Elias Parker, who one of the most complicated people I have needed to write an episode about. Yeah, because we've talked about a lot of indigenous people in the 19th century who have, to a greater or lesser degree, felt like they and their people needed to assimilate with white culture in order to survive. And I am in no way judging any person who is a descendant of any of those people and is like living with the ramifications of those decisions. I feel like it's impossible to know which decisions would have been the best ones in those contexts. But this is the person who has had the most powerful and the most power and the most influence in terms of the impact of those decisions. Right, Right. We've talked about a lot of people who have either themselves wanted to assimilate with white culture, or they wanted their children or their people to assimilate, and their decisions were impacting themselves and their families and maybe also their specific tribe or nation. And then Ely S. Parker became the Commissioner of Indian affairs and was making these policies related to all of the Indigenous people in the United States. And, you know, a lot of those decisions continuing to have impact and influence today.

[Unknown]

Yeah, we didn't refer back to it, really, in the episode, but we mentioned at the top of the episode that his mother had had this vision of him being this person who succeeded in both worlds. And, you know, was a. And I always wonder how much that was informing his decisions, whether consciously or subconsciously.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right.

[Unknown]

I'll Star wars it up and make it about how Anakin is told he's the chosen one, and that ultimately, like, causes problems. And whether or not this is a case of, like, all of that weight being put on him inherently would have probably impacted his decisions, whether he realized it or not.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, yeah. At the end of the episode, we talked about this documentary from 1999, which obviously now is 25 years ago. What?

[Unknown]

Shush. No, it isn't. It's six years ago.

[Hoda Kotb]

So weird. And that it was shown on pbs. It was still available for me to watch on one of the PBS websites, But they talked to a number of Indigenous historians and scholars and leaders as part of that documentary. And a lot of them really talked about his personal ambition and how they felt like his personal ambition had led him to make decisions that were a betrayal of his people and his roots. And that reminded me a little bit of something we talked about with Sarah Winnemucca, about how her people. A big focus was everyone making decisions collaboratively. And so the fact that she went and did things on her own and made decisions on her own was really controversial. And I see some parallels there to Ely Parker clearly having a desire to. Based on his own writing and things that he said that himself. Like, having a desire to really excel at things like the English language and really wanting to get into positions of power. And then how that was viewed among the Seneca and among the Seneca who were being directly impacted by decisions that he was making, like, with Ulysses Grant and in Washington and all of that. Truly a remarkable life, though. Like, even if we stopped before becoming Commissioner of Indian affairs, the process of, like, going through an education and becoming an engineer and doing the engineering work that he did, and then being the person who wrote out the surrender terms at Appomattox during the Civil War, all of those things are fascinating to me. He's actually been depicted in a couple of movies related to the Civil War. I don't remember the names of either of them, but in one of them he doesn't have any lines and in the other one he has like one line which really does not in any way encapsulate his very long relationship with Grant and how close the two of them were and how involved they were in one another's work.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

So yes, whatever's happening on your weekend, I hope that it is as great as it could possibly be. We will be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and we will have a brand new episode on Monday. Stuff you missed in history Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Here's to the season. From hanging ornaments in matching pajamas to building gingerbread houses with extra icing and staying up late to wrap gifts and watch movies, these traditions make the holidays truly special. And through it all, the Chinette brand is there to share in the joy. With the Chinette Crystal Collection, holiday tables are perfectly coordinated, allowing for excellence with less cleanup so everyone can focus on what really matters. Here's to the traditions that bring everyone together year after year. Here's to us, all of us. Find a local [e-mail] all right, we're.

[Savannah Guthrie]

All set for the party. I've trimmed the tree, hung the mistletoe, and paired all those weird shaped knives and forks with the appropriate cheeses. And I plugged in the Bartesian Bartesian. It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium cocktails, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites too. I just got it for 50 off, so how about a Cosmopolitan or a Mistletoe Margarita?

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm thirsty.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Watch. I just pop in a capsule, choose my strength and wow, it's beginning to.

[Hoda Kotb]

Feel more seasonal in here already.

[Savannah Guthrie]

If your holiday party doesn't have a bartender, then you become the bartender. Unless you've got a Bartesian, because Bartesian crafts every cocktail perfectly in as little as 30 seconds. And I just got it for $50 off.

[Hoda Kotb]

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

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