Behind the Scenes Minis: Hans, Mike, and Nate

Summary

Stuff You Missed in History Class: Episode Summary – “Behind the Scenes Minis: Hans, Mike, and Nate”

Release Date: November 15, 2024
Hosts: Holly Frey and Tracy V. Wilson
Podcast: Stuff You Missed in History Class by iHeartPodcasts

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1. Introduction

In this episode of Stuff You Missed in History Class, hosts Holly Frey and Tracy V. Wilson delve into the intriguing stories of historical figures Hans Sloan and Nate DeMaio, interwoven with personal anecdotes and reflections. The discussion spans topics from colonial impacts on scientific work to the complexities of legacy and modern interpretations of historical contributions.

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2. The Legacy of Hans Sloan and Colonial Influences

A. Understanding Sloan’s Background and Colonial Impact

Holly begins by exploring the life of Hans Sloan, a prominent figure whose work was significantly influenced by the colonization and enslavement in Jamaica.

Holly Frey [03:30]: "It wasn't until I got into a deeper biography where I understood the circumstances of his youth and how that was already a scenario of colonization and forced occupation that maybe just made him so accustomed to that concept."

Tracy agrees, highlighting the normalized context Sloan grew up in:

Tracy V. Wilson [04:01]: "That's just a guess on my part. Like, we don't actually know his opinion about slavery per se."

B. Sloan’s Contributions and Ethical Considerations

The hosts discuss Sloan's possible views on slavery, noting the ambiguous stance he might have held despite benefiting from the system.

Holly Frey [04:01]: "Even though it clearly benefited him. And he believed that anyone who was not a white European person must be lying if they said they didn't feel good because they were lazy and trying to get out of work."

This revelation sheds light on the complexities of Sloan's legacy, balancing his scientific contributions with the ethical implications of his personal beliefs.

3. Mike the Cat: A Historical Anecdote

During a visit to the British Museum’s reading room, Holly shares a memorable encounter related to Mike the Cat, a historical feline known for guarding the museum.

Holly Frey [04:42]: "If ever I did want a ghost, it was Mike the Cat in Moment. But no Mike the Cat sightings."

This story adds a personal and whimsical touch to the discussion, illustrating the rich and sometimes quirky history surrounding historical sites.

4. The Rebranding of Sloan Chocolate Company

The conversation shifts to the Sloan Chocolate Company, which bore Hans Sloan's name until its rebranding in 2022.

Holly Frey [05:18]: "He didn't own it. It was named in reference to him. It rebranded to Coco Canopy in 2022."

Tracy reflects on the longevity of the brand’s association with Sloan:

Tracy V. Wilson [05:38]: "That is a long time. Yeah."

5. Property Legacy and Historical Preservation

Holly discusses the enduring legacy of Sloan’s property, particularly his manor house in Chelsea, which includes an apothecary garden leased to the Worshipful Society of Apothecaries.

Holly Frey [08:02]: "He leased it to the worshipful society of apothecaries for £5 a year. According to a Gardens Illustrated article, his descendants might still be receiving rent today."

Tracy muses on the concept of multi-century property ownership:

Tracy V. Wilson [09:15]: "You've been receiving rent since what year? 1722. For real?"

This segment highlights the fascinating intersection of personal legacy and property law, emphasizing how historical legacies can persist into modern times.

6. Visiting the British Museum: Reflections and Observations

The hosts share their experiences visiting the British Museum, noting the institution's efforts and challenges in managing its vast collections.

Holly Frey [10:15]: "I felt it was a cool space, but hard as heck to navigate."

Tracy adds her perspective on the museum's current state:

Tracy V. Wilson [10:55]: "They're trying so hard. We're just really behind."

This discussion underscores the complexities museums face in balancing preservation, accessibility, and repatriation debates.

7. Nate DeMaio and “The Memory Palace”

A. Introduction to Nate DeMaio’s Work

Shifting focus, Tracy introduces Nate DeMaio and his upcoming book, “The Memory Palace”.

Tracy V. Wilson [15:35]: "We talked to Nate DeMaio this week about his upcoming book called The Memory Palace."

B. Podcast Episode Challenges and Rights Issues

Tracy recounts previous attempts to feature Nate's work in their podcast, encountering licensing issues with music.

Tracy V. Wilson [16:00]: "There were rights issues with music that had been used in the episode, so we had to take them all out before doing this interview."

C. Comparing “The Memory Palace” to Other Reading Formats

Tracy likens the book to bathroom readers, questioning its market viability in the digital age.

Tracy V. Wilson [18:14]: "It reminds me of a thing that you might read for a couple of minutes like you would a bathroom reader."

D. Personal Reflections and Anticipation

Both hosts express admiration for Nate’s work, with Tracy highlighting the audiobook format and the book’s potential to provide solace, akin to reading Mary Oliver’s poems during solitary walks.

Tracy V. Wilson [19:30]: "It would just bring a little bit of peace and focus to my soul. So yeah, that book is coming out on November 19th."

8. Holly’s Upcoming Book: “Killer Cocktails”

Holly shares details about her forthcoming book, “Killer Cocktails”, which intertwines historical true crime stories with themed cocktails.

Holly Frey [17:29]: "It is Killer Cocktails, based on the work that we do on the other podcast that I'm on, Criminalia."

Tracy complements the project, noting its unique blend of history and mixology.

Tracy V. Wilson [17:30]: "It's perfect Christmas gift if you have someone that likes mixing drinks."

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9. Conclusion and Upcoming Episodes

The episode wraps up with hints of future content, including a Saturday Classic and new segments slated for Monday. The hosts encourage listeners to stay tuned for more engaging historical explorations.

Tracy V. Wilson [19:56]: "We will be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Holly Frey [03:30]: "It wasn't until I got into a deeper biography where I understood the circumstances of his youth and how that was already a scenario of colonization and forced occupation that maybe just made him so accustomed to that concept."

• Tracy V. Wilson [05:38]: "That is a long time. Yeah."

• Holly Frey [08:02]: "He leased it to the worshipful society of apothecaries for £5 a year."

• Tracy V. Wilson [15:35]: "We talked to Nate DeMaio this week about his upcoming book called The Memory Palace."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Stuff You Missed in History Class provides a rich tapestry of historical analysis, personal anecdotes, and thoughtful reflections on legacy and memory. Holly and Tracy expertly navigate complex topics, offering listeners both depth and engagement in their exploration of Hans Sloan’s impact and Nate DeMaio’s literary contributions.

For more in-depth discussions and historical insights, tune into Stuff You Missed in History Class on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

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[Holly Frey]

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[Holly Frey]

Welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartradio. Hello and happy Friday. I'm Holly Frey.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

[Holly Frey]

And we talked about Han Sloan in the British Museum this week.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Huh.

[Holly Frey]

There are so many things. One of the things that jumped out to me that I had not realized reading a lot of biographies about him until I got into more of the heavy hitter biographies was like, at that point, I was already, you know, understanding and. And well acquainted with the extent to which, you know, this colonization and enslavement of Jamaica had enabled his work.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

But it wasn't until I got into a deeper biography where I understood the circumstances of his youth and how that was already a scenario of colonization and forced occupation that maybe just made him so accustomed to that concept.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

That he didn't even process it to some degree.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

That's just a guess on my part. Like, we don't actually know his opinion about slavery per se.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

Even though it clearly benefited him. And he believed that anyone who was not a white European person must be lying if they said they didn't feel good because they were lazy and trying to get out of work. That is literally how he. How he describes many of these situations. Even when he's listing symptoms that you're like, something was gravely wrong with that person, which is upsetting. But it just was the first time I had that revelatory moment of, oh, his whole life. Parallels that experience of his youth where this was probably very normalized. Just interesting. While I was at the British Museum.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

And I went in the reading room and I was with one of my very, very dear friends, who I just loved pieces. And we were standing in the reading room and all I could think of was Mike the Cat, who you may remember from our episode about historical cats. Mike the Cat was kind of a scrappy cat that would often hang out in the reading room and guarded air quotes. The British Museum. And people would try to pet him and he would claw them. And I just was like, if ever I did want a ghost, it was Mike the Cat in Moment. But no Mike the Cat sightings.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

I did think about him.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Sloan's name was on chocolate until 2022.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Really? Yeah. Okay.

[Holly Frey]

And then the company that was. I forget the exact name of the company, but it was something like Sloan Chocolate Company. He didn't own it. It was named in reference to him. Sure. It rebranded To Coco Canopy, I think, in 2022. But I'm like, wow, that is a long time.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

That is a long time. Yeah. Yeah. I also, I think about this sometimes just because I will go down a rabbit hole of like, TikTok discourse. People use the word discover to mean a brand new, never before discovered thing. But people also use the word discover to just mean I found out.

[Holly Frey]

Yes.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Not. Not claiming that you are the sole discoverer of the thing.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And so I kind of wonder, like, whether he did think that he had invented this entirely unknown thing.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Or this is probably being more generous toward him than he might deserve in this matter. But, like, whether he was like, I discovered that this is really good and it just more meant I realized this, not I invented it myself.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

And it's very unclear. I mean, here's the thing. There are very solid sources that will say without hesitation that he invented either hot chocolate, chocolate milk, milk chocolate, like, as though it is fact. And they are places you would normally trust, but there's absolutely no.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. When you told me this was who you were working on, and I had not, like, the name did not ring a bell at all for me. And so I googled and the first result was like, blah, blah, blah, naturalist supposed adventure of chocolate milk. And I was like, what? That doesn't seem right.

[Holly Frey]

Right? No, no. One of the other things that was interesting that I hadn't really thought about a ton because, you know, he had collections from, as we said towards the end of the episode, more than, you know, 70 different places around the globe. But he himself was not widely traveled, really. Right. Like, he went to Jamaica on this assignment and he had gone to France for his medical degree, but he didn't do the thing that we talk about on the show all the time that like, young men as they're, you know, hitting adulthood from aristocratic families, would do, like, their tour of the continent and travel. He couldn't afford to do that. He was from the, you know, servant class.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

So it's really interesting that he. Again, obviously, so many problematic issues with his legacy, but he is an interesting case of someone who really went from having nothing to literally, as I joked in the podcast, being the grand poobah of all scientific thought in London, certainly. And I would say that extended throughout Europe in a big way, which is kind of a fascinating life trajectory. I just thought that was interesting. And then when he purchased the manor house at Chelsea, that included that garden, his apothecary garden, and he leased it to the worshipful society of apothecaries for £5 a year. And according to a Gardens Illustrated article that I read, that was about the 350th anniversary of his birth, maybe his descendants still get paid that.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, wow.

[Holly Frey]

That property is still part of his family legacy and they are still getting paid rent on that garden, which is fascinating.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Holly Frey]

This is like that thing we've talked about recently where we always mention when you're translating money over time, it's very tricky.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

But how I had found a few months back, and we talked about it then, like, oh, this is actually quite important to people who live in, like, Europe, for example, where they actually are on property that their family has owned for 350 years. And suddenly they have to have a system that everyone agrees, they'll at least acknowledge and abide by. And so I just. It was one of those things where I'm like, I. The idea of a family owning a piece of property for hundreds and hundreds of years is so alien to most of us that live in the United States. And I'm just like. And you're. You've been receiving rent since what year? 1722. For real?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like.

[Holly Frey]

It'S very interesting.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

British Museum, they got a lot of cool stuff. I feel like they're. They're trying, having been there on site, because we've talked about it before and, like, issues of repatriation. But I will say the vibe I got being on site was we're trying so hard. We're just really behind. And I don't know if that's just like an easy piece of copy to put out, but I. It felt a little different for me being there than when we have talked about it, um, because it does seem so simple in most regards. But I. I do think there's some untangling that we probably are not privy to in a lot of those things.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right, right.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

But it's a cool space. It's hard as heck to navigate, in my opinion. Thank goodness I had a local who was like, oh, no, that's on floor four. And I'm like, how do you get there? Because I would never have found stuff.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, I've never been there because I've never been to London.

[Holly Frey]

Oh, I love it so much. This last trip to London, my favorite. I just felt I stayed in a different part of the city than I had before, and I just had a great time and I don't know, it felt like second home in a way that had not before. So I'm ready to go back again at the Drop of a hat.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Nice.

[Holly Frey]

Let's all go. By the time this comes out, we will have been to Iceland.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

So we might have new stories to come out of that. We'll see.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

Talked to Nate DeMaio this week about his upcoming book.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Called the Memory Palace. So we have had Nate DeMaio on the show previously that time Holly and I both talked to Nate. And this is an example of how our human memories are fallible because here's how I remember that earlier episode happening. We were going to interview Nate DeMaio. We were going to include a couple of episodes of his show in our episode similar to what we did this time. We were going to also like have a focus of the interview around those episodes we were discussing. But there were rights issues with music that had been used in the episode in Nate's episodes of the Memory of the Monroe Palace. So we had to take them all out before doing this interview with him. I went and re listened to that previous episode because I did not want to have it be the same questions exactly over again. Um, and there was an episode of his show in there and I was like, I thought we had to take all of these out. So I guess what really happened was we had to change which episodes were going to be included to ones that did not have the potential issues involving licensing for the music.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Um, and that was just not how I had remembered it at all. We do. Like that episode still is in the archive if folks want to listen to that, to hear more from Nate, I want to stress, number one, Nate is always a pleasure to talk to you.

[Holly Frey]

Indeed.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It's great.

[Holly Frey]

I'm bummed that my schedule thwarted me from being part of this one.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. You had your own book coming out at the same time as we were planning to do this interview with Nate.

[Holly Frey]

I did.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

You had your own book, and so you were off doing things involving your own book. Want to tell people one more time what that book is?

[Holly Frey]

Yes, it is Killer Cocktails, which is based on the work that we do on the other podcast that I'm on, Criminalia, which is historical true crime. And every story of historical true crime has a cocktail and mocktail that go with it. So you get half that you may have heard already on the podcast if you listen, and half are brand new just for the book. So perfect Christmas gift if you have someone that likes mixing drinks. History or true crime in a way that's removed and feels less voyeuristic.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. So this is very similar to Nate's book because Nate's book is also some of it. Some chapters are the same story as he has told on an episode of the Memory Palace. Others are new stories that were written for the book specifically. I already gushed about the book a bit in the episode where I talked to Nate, but something that he and I talked about after we had stopped rolling. There's two things. One is that, yes, there is going to be an audiobook. The audiobook sounds really cool to me. I don't want to get into the details of how it sounds cool to me, but if you are an audiobook person, if you like to get your. Your books that way, definitely see if this would be one that would interest you, because I find a lot of things about it really awesome. The other thing that he and I talked about was how there were concerns about how this book would sell, because what market is there for a book of poetic, thoughtful, short history stories? And I said, basically, please don't take offense at this, Nate, but, like, do you remember bathroom books? Do they still have bathroom readers? Do they publish those? Because now we're all on our phones on the toilet.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But those used to be books that you could find near the checkout section of the bookstore and in the humor section. And the book of the Memory palace reminds me of a thing that you might read for a couple of minutes like you would a bathroom reader. And I also had a time that I would turn to this book that is not nearly as, you know, Private is having your time that you're sitting in the bathroom, which is that during the height of the pandemic, like when we were all in lockdown mode, a lot of us not working in offices, not attending school in person, not seeing a lot of other people, and then also when I was dealing with all of my feelings around critical illness and somebody very dear to me, I spent a lot of time walking in the woods. And one of the things I took with me in the walking in the woods was my phone, which had a collection of poems by Mary Oliver on it. And I would find a place to sit and I would sit under a tree or I would sit by the pond or I would sit somewhere and I would like read a poem by Mary Oliver and it would just bring a little bit of peace and focus to my soul. And I think this book would have a very similar role for me on my phone to have, you know, a walk somewhere and sit somewhere quiet and read a story that moves me in some way about history. So yeah, that book is coming out on November 19th. It is again called the Memory palace by Nate DeMaio. And whatever's coming up on your weekend, if you have a new book you've just gotten, I hope you get some time to read it. If you have a book you are looking forward to with a lot of eagerness, which I know happens to me when there are things that are coming soon by authors or other creators that I like, I hope that anticipation is fun and that you're excited about it. We will be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday. Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Here's to Turkey Day, the favorite day of the year for many. From cozying up by the fire to watch the parade, to gathering in the kitchen to whip up casseroles, it's a time of joy and togetherness. And here's to the Chinette brand for making it all a little easier with the Chinette Classic collection. No need to worry about cleanup. Plus, Chinet Classic plates and bowls are compostable, helping not just to keep the sink clean but also leaving less of a mess for future generations. So here's to being together. Here's to us, all of us. Find a local [e-mail] See Gladiator 2.

[Narrator]

Only in theaters November 22nd. This film delivers action, an emotional and compelling story, and performances in spectacle. On a scale Unlike anything else, Gladiator 2 stands out. With its immersive visuals and a gripping, character driven narrative. The film stars an extraordinary cast including Paul Mezcal, Pedro Pascal, Denzel Washington and Connie Nielsen. Reprising her role as Lucilla, get ready for an epic experience made for the big screen. Gladiator 2 only in theaters on November.

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