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Jana Kramer
This is Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. So why do they call it a dishwasher? Well, don't worry, it's not a trick question or anything. It's just because it washes dishes. If the filter and the dishwasher itself are dirty, those dishes aren't actually getting clean. That's why you need Cascade Platinum Plus. Powered by two times the cleaning power of Dawn, Cascade Platinum plus doesn't just remove 100% of grease and residue from dishes, it cleans your dishwasher and filter too. So you get clean dishes and a dishwasher that keeps washing. Just scrape, load and done. Find Cascade Platinum plus at your local retailer. Cascade is a proud sponsor of the Elton John Impact Awards, honoring those who have helped shape a more inclusive and compassionate world with their artistry, advocacy and unwavering commitment to equality. Cascade would like to take this opportunity to congratulate all of this year's deserving honorees. Don't miss the Elton John Impact Awards podcast, available on June 1st on the iHeartRadio app and everywhere podcasts are heard.
Holly Frey
Wouldn't it be great to never buy gas again? EVs are as easy to charge as your phone, and they are a perfect addition to your everyday life. Most people are only driving about 40 miles a day, and most EVs can handle 200 to 400 miles of range on a charge. And there are hundreds of EV models available today, so there's something perfect for every lifestyle and budget. I drive an ev. I've had it for a couple of years. It's my favorite car I've ever owned. It is so fun to drive. The pickup is incredible. It's super agile and it is easy to maintain. The way forward is electric. Learn more@electricforall.org Work can be a little weird.
Tracy V. Wilson
And I know when I first started working, networking for work was even weirder. Sometimes it can feel hard to thrive and move forward in your career. And that is where LinkedIn comes in. LinkedIn helps you get ideas and insights from experts in your field, connect with people professionally, grow your network, and access tools designed to help you find the right fit for your next role. Whether you're just getting started, figuring out your next move or looking to accelerate your career, LinkedIn is built to support you at every stage because LinkedIn is the network that works for you. Visit LinkedIn.com class to learn more. Brought to you in part by Vital Farms. I love eggs. I turn to them all the time as a quick and easy way to start a meal. And Vital Farms eggs are brought to you by hens that have access to fresh air and sunshine. And you can actually look up on the carton and see the farm that those eggs came from. Vital Farms is also b corporation with a purpose to improve the lives of people, animals and the planet through food. Look for the black egg carton in the egg aisle and visit vitalfarms.com to learn more. Vital Farms good eggs, no shortcuts.
Dr. Joy
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Holly Frey
Welcome to stuff you missed in history class, a production of iHeartradio. Hello and happy Friday. I'm Holly Fry.
Tracy V. Wilson
And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.
Holly Frey
We talked about E. Virgil Neil all week.
Tracy V. Wilson
Yes, we sure did.
Holly Frey
I am intrigued beyond measure by E. Virgil Neil and the way he lived his life and all of his wild stuff.
Tracy V. Wilson
Yeah.
Holly Frey
I have so many thoughts. I have so many notes. So everybody come with me on journeys. First off, I have a cat redemption story. Okay. On a previous behind the scenes, I talked about how my beautiful angel baby Jesse seemed to hate one of my best friends.
Tracy V. Wilson
Correct.
Holly Frey
We figured out what happened. I think we figured out what happened.
Tracy V. Wilson
Okay. Okay.
Holly Frey
Because Jesse and one of our other cats had to go in last two weeks ago for dental surgery. And when we went and picked them up, the other cat, who has very bad teeth, they are littermaids. They were like, oh, my vet was like, she actually had much less in the way of problems than we expected. But Jesse had one tooth that was really infected. Oh, no. Really deep into her jawline. And I think what must have happened is that she just wasn't feeling good. And our dear friend probably gave her a scritch along her jaw and she just associated her with that because after she healed from her oral surgery, that friend came over and Jesse climbed her like a monkey, like purring and like, rubbing her face on her. So I think, how funny. She might not have hateful hearts. She May have just felt really cruddy and had just been touched in a way that did not feel good.
Tracy V. Wilson
Yeah.
Holly Frey
My baby is my baby. It turns out she's a good girl. She's still a little bit of a rat, but I just wanted everyone to know she's not a monster. Okay, here's the takeaway of Eve Virgil Neal. And really, it's a takeaway that is also from the show I used to do, Criminalia. Don't mess with the post office. They will come for you. They will come for you. We did a whole season on Criminalia about fraudsters, and in so many of those instances, the thing that finally took somebody down was like, an inspector or somebody from the post office, like the Postmaster General, activating an inspector and being like, you have to go check this out. And that was how things all. I mean, bias for action. They will put together a case. They will get lawyers involved alongside, like, it. Just don't mess with the post office. It's the rule.
Tracy V. Wilson
Yeah.
Holly Frey
Which I just kind of love. Postal fraud will get you before anything else.
Tracy V. Wilson
Yeah. Because there's a whole lot of other fraud that, you know, it will happen. Nothing. Nothing. You said file your report with the FBI. What will happen? Nothing. Zero things will happen. Call your local law enforcement about the fraud. Zero things happening. I have personal experience with this. And nothing. Nothing will be done.
Holly Frey
Although I had a great check fraud story that maybe we'll wait for another day. But it was a good one. It was a good one. There was justice. Sort of Never mess with the PO. Anyway, one of the other things that came up in some of the research on Eve Virgil Neal, again, I feel like his life story should be called. That's not substantiated. Because we said that a lot can't be substantiated. And so much of his life was built in a way that people could not substantiate things that it makes it very hard. But one theory that had come up was that in his earlier days and, like, people were like, okay, why did he keep setting these businesses up in, like, Syracuse? Was that he was helping his parents or his mother solo. His dad died at some point in there, and that is reported differently in different places. But that he may have been sticking close to her throughout all of it. And so, like, some of these sort of cockamamie and in some ways nefarious businesses were kind of to generate money that he could give to her. But I don't. That seems like a very kind read on his situation.
Tracy V. Wilson
Yeah.
Holly Frey
But who knows, you know, Even monsters will have pets. I found myself thinking about Robert Boyle during this episode.
Tracy V. Wilson
Okay.
Holly Frey
And his idea of healing at a distance.
Tracy V. Wilson
Yes.
Holly Frey
And I'm like, did they read his list, his wish list of things that science might do one day and go, people want that. We can tell them we have it, even though we don't have it. Look into the eyes of the photograph at a specific time.
Tracy V. Wilson
Yeah. When I think it was character delineator.
Holly Frey
Yeah.
Tracy V. Wilson
And I was like, this sounds like some kind of Woo. Like, this is like, character delineator sounds like a term for a psychic who is going to observe you and say what your character is. Like, that was sort of where my brain took it.
Holly Frey
Oh, yeah. It's like a very specific form of cold reading.
Tracy V. Wilson
Mm.
Holly Frey
Yeah. It's. It's wild. Here's the thing. Don't come for me. I have a weird sort of reserved. Don't come for me. I'm not saying something bad, but it's gonna sound initially a weird sort of reserved admiration for Eve Virgil Neil, because he was clearly very smart and he, you know, I mean, I read a lot of his banking and accounting stuff, and I'm like, this is a brilliant way to teach this stuff. Like, this makes so much sense. It really, like, clarifies, demystifies, distills into, like, easily communicable and actionable activities, like, how to do these things. And I'm like, this is terrific. He had an incredible skill as a writer and as a communicator, and he obviously knew how to manage money. And I'm like, you're so darn smart. If you had only had scruples, what could you have done like that. It's like the formula I wrote at one point in my notes was, banking plus writing minus conscience. Like, that's the formula that makes Eve Virgil Neil. Because I don't know how you go to sleep at night doing the things he was doing. But I do marvel at the way he was able to shift things around very carefully. He was really the only person who understood the whole web. He, you know, like, he was clearly making a lot of moves that were astute through a certain lens, but again, just lacking morality or conscience.
Tracy V. Wilson
Right, right.
Holly Frey
So that's why I. I admire how smart he clearly was and how able he was to maneuver things to his own benefit. But I don't admire, like, what was motivating that or the outcome.
Tracy V. Wilson
Right, right.
Holly Frey
Yeah. Don't come for me. I don't think he was a good person. I just think he was smart. Yeah. Fascinated, Fascinated.
Tracy V. Wilson
Yeah,
Holly Frey
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Tracy V. Wilson
be a little weird. One minute you're in a meeting that could have been an email, the next you're trying to decode corporate jargon that somehow means nothing. And don't even get me started on the quick sync that turns into a 45 minute deep dive. I know I have had these and many more frustrations. The truth is, figuring out your career isn't always straightforward. Whether you're trying to grow PIV or just stay relevant, it can feel like you're navigating it all on your own. That's where LinkedIn comes in. LinkedIn can help you grow your career, helping you confidently navigate your path. With insights, ideas and inspiration from your professional community. You can stay up to date with the latest trends in your field, connect with people who get it, and discover opportunities tailored to your goals, your experience and what actually matters to you. Whether you're looking for something new or just trying to grow where you are, LinkedIn gives you the tools and connections to move forward with confidence. Confidence because LinkedIn is the network that works for you. Visit LinkedIn.com class to learn more.
Holly Frey
Unlike the people we normally talk about on the show, we are living in a time when Internet connectivity is a standard part of life for most people and there is literally no way we could research and prepare our podcast without the Internet. If connectivity goes down for me, it can be really hard to make up that lost time. And for businesses, Internet connectivity is even more of a necessity. Spectrum Business keeps businesses of all sizes connected seamlessly with fast and reliable Internet, advanced Wi, Fi, phone, TV and mobile services. Spectrum business offers 100% US based customer support and they do it 24 7. That means you can always stay up and running no matter what hours your business keeps. Spectrum Business also will tailor connectivity solutions just for you. They will put a package together that is built for your business budget. Millions of business owners rely on Spectrum Business to keep them connected, so visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Service is not available in all areas, So you're considering getting a home security system, but you want something that fits your space well. With ADT Blue, it's easy to customize a system that's right for you and set it up yourself. Just pick the kit and monitoring plan that makes sense for your home. Let's say you're worried about package theft. The ADT app can walk you through setting up a new doorbell camera kit. Once it's installed, ADT Pros can help you keep tabs on it 247 or you can manage it yourself from the ADT app. There are no long term contracts, so you can change your monitoring plan whenever you want. The flexibility doesn't end there. You can add to your system as you need to with things like extra cameras or motion sensors. Some life decisions are hard, but thanks to ADT blue, you can DIY trusted ADT Home Security in a snap. Head to ADT.comBLU to build your system today. And to find out more about home protection, check out a new episode of Grown Up Stuff with security expert Joe Maza out Now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or Wherever you get your podcasts, Have you ever fallen into. I bet you haven't. This seems like something you would not do. But maybe those phases of life where you love watching infomercials.
Tracy V. Wilson
I don't know if I would say that I loved watching them.
Holly Frey
I love them. I find them fascinating. Yeah.
Tracy V. Wilson
There was a period of my life where I worked at a place that was going to try selling its products through an infomercial. So I did learn a lot about infomercials during that time.
Holly Frey
Right.
Tracy V. Wilson
And I don't actually remember whether that effort got off the ground or not. Like, I don't remember if that infomercial actually aired ever.
Holly Frey
But yeah, I have always been very fascinated because the. Here's the thing. There are even things that get sold in infomercials that are actually perfectly fine products. But the way that like the sales tactic of it, we have the answer. We can simplify your life, baby. It's all gonna get better. Just call and place your order. That's how old I am. You used to have to call and place your order, you know, go online, put in the thing. And I mean those still exist in various forms now just in like a more rapid fire pace on like Instagram ads, TikTok, et cetera.
Tracy V. Wilson
Right.
Holly Frey
I'm fascinated by them and sometimes I get influenced by them. I'm not gonna lie. Usually in very benign ways. Like, I do need those sh. But I just, I find them. It's. It's wild because even as you are conscious of the cause and effect of how that marketing works, there will be moments where you're like, maybe I do need that. Yeah. And it's like you have to pull yourself back and go, no, no. Remember, these are all careful. It's like the same way that people talk about the food industry, studying things like mouth feel and craveability to make more craveable. It's the same thing. Like there is psychological analysis around what will people to, you know, eventually buy into a product.
Tracy V. Wilson
Right, right.
Holly Frey
But even when you know that, it is very easy to be drawn in and be like, that will solve that problem.
Tracy V. Wilson
Yeah, well, and to be incredibly clear, the company that I was working for was selling actual legitimate products, like an actual legitimate products that had a very specific legal, regulatory, like oversight involved with them. But the infomercial idea was totally like trying to bring these products that were made for business use into a home by saying, this will solve all of your problems. You know how you have baked on gunk in your oven this product, which was, you know, Formulated for commercial ovens. It's totally going to solve all your problems.
Holly Frey
Don't take away my flavoring gunk. I need the guck. And again, I have.
Tracy V. Wilson
I don't remember if that, like, did. Did that ever actually become a thing. I don't remember.
Holly Frey
I don't know. And so, I mean, some of those things do. Are perfectly legitimate products. Yeah. I'm fascinated by. I'm fascinated by the idea. I feel like in an alternate life I must have worked in advertising because I am obsessed with commercials. Like, I have strong opinions about commercials. I will watch a whole show that's garbage, but if it's on, like network television, I will turn to Brian and talk about the problems with the ads. And I just love the concept of advertising as a field of study. I mean, I don't love the concept of advertising, but I love analyzing it. I think it's really fascinating. Commercials are an interesting space in terms of film and television technology because in some cases that's where things get put. That's where the envelope gets pushed in terms of what's possible first. Cause it's much easier to fund a 90 second piece of film than it is an actual show or movie. So from that point of view, I'm always fascinated by commercials anyway. I'm fascinated with advertising is the summation of that. Which is probably part of why Eva o' Neill is so. Just wildly engrossing for me.
Tracy V. Wilson
Yeah. Well, in his, like, newspaper ads that were basically advertorials.
Holly Frey
Yeah.
Tracy V. Wilson
I thought about that a lot because of, you know, my own history of having worked for a website in an editorial department in an era that there was, you know, the transition was being made from print media with, you know, things that look like articles but said at the top. Sponsored copy or something like that. Yeah. Trying to transfer that kind of mindset to the web.
Holly Frey
Yeah.
Tracy V. Wilson
And working in an editorial department that was highly opposed to doing anything like that. So that, like, those were the things that I was thinking about while.
Holly Frey
While.
Tracy V. Wilson
While talking about that part of his life story.
Holly Frey
Yeah. I mean, I. It's such a weird thing. And I know most people hate ads in general. They hate advertising. I know we get complaints about advertising on our show sometimes, but like. And I have a very. It stuck with me so hard. An interaction I had with a friend of mine. And it was in that time when a lot of network television was transitioning to having shows available online. Oh yeah. And this friend of mine was so irate that there were ads in the online version. And I was like. But There have to be. And she was like, what are you talking about? And she was just irate about it. And I was like, she's like, it should be free. And I'm like, okay, how do you think they pay the actors, writers, set directors, et cetera? Like, I know it's not fun always to watch an ad, but, like, if you want to the show. Now, of course, the models are very different, but for network television particularly, it's like, if you want the show, you got to put up with that part unless you're subscribing to it in a different way. Like, that's just the rules. That's just how it works. Fascinating to me. And I think the transition into online, there was a gap for people in, like, understanding or accepting that initially that, like, oh, the ads will follow us to there also. Yeah. When I think they were thinking, if I'm not watching it on my television with my remote control control, surely it's a different thing. This must be cheaper to run. They don't need the ads for this. And it's like, no, they actually still do.
Tracy V. Wilson
It was in. In parallel with advertisers not seeing value in advertising on the web yet. So for some things there was. There's sort of. This happened with podcasting a lot. Like, there was sort of a window when most podcasts didn't have ads on them because advertisers weren't interested in advertising on podcasts and listeners got used to ad free podcasts and those ad free podcasts, vast majority of them would have stopped existing because people would have run out of money had the advertisers not eventually come.
Holly Frey
Yeah, it's weird. It's a weird dance. Yeah, I get the dismay.
Tracy V. Wilson
Yeah.
Holly Frey
I'm not. I literally, right now, my brain is ticking through all of the copy and recent television ads I've seen that I hate. Nobody needs that. Nobody needs me to shout out their company for not liking their ads. Do you want me to tell you about the memory that was jogged by our email about kids dressing up as historical figures?
Tracy V. Wilson
Yes.
Holly Frey
I mean, have you ever had a memory just come and slap you in the face like that that you haven't thought about in this, like, 45 years? Yeah. In seventh grade, my best friend and I, we had to do reports on historical figures in science. And my best friend and I, I don't know if we picked it or. We were assigned the Wright Brothers.
Tracy V. Wilson
Okay.
Holly Frey
And we were like, great. And she is still a friend of mine. She's one of the smartest people I know, she probably did more of the, like, bookwork part of it. I don't know. We each picked one of the brothers and kind of went with it. But on the day of the presentation, I. I don't know if I just didn't communicate this or not, but I showed up in full historical costume. Oh no. And she did not. And it was, it was just the most awkward, weird thing because it was like I was. That's what I wore to school that day. It wasn't like I could change, right? So there was no way to make it not look like I had done more work than her in that regard, even though she did just as much work as me, if not more on the like, writing and prep part. And it was just like I woo the way that memory came back. So hard. Yeah, so hard. But also hilarious. That wasn't a very historically accurate costume, but it was more historically accurate than most kids would do at that stage in life. Listen, if this is your weekend coming up, I hope you only sew if you want to. I hope you only watch infomercials if you want to. I hope you remember that advertising is often designed to appeal to that part of your brain that has wants and needs. And you don't get sucked into buying something you don't want. Or like me, you wake up in a fugue state and that's when the ordering happens. It's a problem. Be like, where do these shoes come from? Oh, I did order those at 6:45am last Friday. Like it happens. Listen, it is what it is. But I hope that, like, you have a wonderful next couple of days. If you have to work, if you have obligations, maybe you have a family and you gotta run people all over for all of their extracurricular activities or whatever they've got going on. I still hope you can steal away some fun time for yourself. Maybe find a bathroom with a disco ball in it. Maybe make a bathroom with a disco ball in it. Just embrace joy wherever you find it. Be kind to one another. We will be right back here on Monday with new stuff. We will also be back here tomorrow with a classic episode.
Tracy V. Wilson
Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite show.
Holly Frey
Wouldn't it be great to never buy gas again? EVs are as easy to charge as your phone and they are a perfect addition to your everyday life. Most people are only driving about 40 miles a day and most EVs can handle 200 to 400 miles of range on a charge. And there are hundreds of EV models available today, so there's something perfect for every lifestyle and budget. I drive an ev. I've had it for a couple of years. It's my favorite car I've ever owned. It is so fun to drive. The pickup is incredible. It's super agile and it is easy to maintain. The way forward is electric. Learn more@electricforall.org brought to you in part
Tracy V. Wilson
by Vital Farms I love eggs. I turn to them all the time as a quick and easy way to start a meal. And Vital Farms eggs are brought to you by hens that have access to fresh air and sunshine and you can actually look up on the carton and see the farm that those eggs came from. Vital Farms is also a certified bee corporation with a purpose to improve the lives of people, animals and through food. Look for the black egg carton in the egg aisle and visit vitalpharms.com to learn more. Vital Good Eggs no Shortcuts I know
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Holly Frey
Catch the red eye or take the
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Holly Frey
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Ask your doctor about EBGLIS and visit ebglislily.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545-5979. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
Release Date: June 12, 2026
Hosts: Holly Frey & Tracy V. Wilson
Podcast: iHeartPodcasts
This “Behind the Scenes Minis” episode finds Holly and Tracy reflecting on their main episode about E. Virgil Neal — a notorious business figure whose life bridged ambiguous lines between genius and fraudster. The discussion ranges from Neal’s inscrutable background, the curious power of postal inspectors, the psychology of infomercials and advertising, and a few lighthearted personal anecdotes.
Fascination with Neal’s Life:
Both hosts are captivated by Neal’s complicated, sometimes unverifiable past and his ingenious—if unethical—approach to business.
Unsubstantiable Claims:
Smart but Lacking Scruples:
Personal Fascinations:
The Morphing of Ad Culture:
Ads Are Here to Stay:
Jesse the Cat:
School Days Memory:
| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|-----------|-------| | 03:42 | Holly | “I am intrigued beyond measure by E. Virgil Neal and the way he lived his life and all of his wild stuff.” | | 05:09 | Holly | “Don’t mess with the post office. They will come for you.” | | 06:05 | Tracy | “You said file your report with the FBI. What will happen? Nothing. ... Call your local law enforcement about the fraud. Zero things happening. ... But the post office...” | | 06:26 | Holly | “So much of his life was built in a way that people could not substantiate things that it makes it very hard.” | | 09:54 | Holly | “‘Banking plus writing minus conscience.’ Like, that’s the formula that makes E. Virgil Neal.” | | 20:14 | Tracy | “Trying to transfer that kind of mindset to the web. ... Working in an editorial department that was highly opposed to doing anything like that.” | | 23:36 | Holly | “Have you ever had a memory just come and slap you in the face like that that you haven’t thought about in… 45 years?” |
The conversation is characterized by the hosts’ hallmark blend of earnest curiosity, dry wit, and candid personal anecdotes. Holly and Tracy maintain a conversational, thoughtful, and sometimes self-deprecating style, inviting listeners to consider both the dark and entertaining sides of history, media, and everyday life.
This episode is a candid, insightful look at the liminal spaces between cleverness and ethics, fact and fabrication, as told through the lens of E. Virgil Neal’s shadowy legacy—and the hosts’ own quirky experiences with cats, commercials, and school projects. It’s a reminder that history is messy, media is manipulative, and honesty (sometimes) prevails.