Behind the Scenes Minis: Pope Riot

Summary

Stuff You Missed in History Class – Episode: Behind the Scenes Minis: Pope Riot

Release Date: June 13, 2025 | Hosts: Holly Fry & Tracy V. Wilson | Produced by iHeartPodcasts

---

Introduction

In this episode of Stuff You Missed in History Class, hosts Holly Fry and Tracy V. Wilson delve into the intricate legacy of Pope Leo XIII and explore the complexities surrounding the Christiana Incident. Balancing scholarly analysis with personal anecdotes, Holly and Tracy provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of historical events that are often simplified in mainstream narratives.

---

Exploring the Legacy of Pope Leo XIII

The discussion begins with an in-depth examination of Pope Leo XIII, a figure whose contributions and policies have been both lauded and critiqued over the past century.

• Balancing Religion and Objectivity

  • Holly Fry (02:31): "These are always tricky because I want to include as much as I can about their positions on religion without offering commentary on it."
  • Tracy V. Wilson (02:56): "I more struggled with the grammatical construction than the content. Some of the words were in an order that my brain was having a hard time with."

• Challenges of Translation and Language

  • The hosts highlight the difficulties in translating Latin documents and the archaic language used in early 20th-century translations, which can obscure the true intentions and beliefs of Pope Leo XIII.

• Revisiting Historical Narratives

  • Holly Fry (05:00): "There is an interesting thing that has emerged in the last 20 years... earlier accounts made him seem much more liberal than he actually was."
  • The hosts discuss how early 20th-century portrayals often "whitewashed" Pope Leo XIII's conservatism, omitting his firm stance against worker unions despite his progressive initiatives for the time.

• Influence and Outreach

  • Holly Fry (06:50): "He was very good at outreach and PR and talking to other people that were not part of the Catholic Church that had power."
  • This segment underscores Pope Leo XIII's strategic engagement with global leaders, enhancing his influence beyond the confines of the Catholic Church.

---

Unpacking the Christiana Incident

Transitioning from religious history, Holly and Tracy delve into the Christiana Riot, a pivotal event leading up to the American Civil War.

• Terminology and Interpretation

  • Tracy V. Wilson (15:19): "Christiana riot, Christiana resistance, Christiana incident... it's so messy and confusing."
  • The hosts debate the appropriateness of terms like "riot," arguing that such labels often misrepresent the true nature of historical conflicts, especially those involving racial tensions.

• Complexity of Historical Events

  • Holly Fry (15:31): "The actual details of what happened in those 90 minutes... are so messy and confusing."
  • They emphasize the chaotic and multifaceted nature of the event, highlighting the difficulty in pinpointing a singular narrative or moral lesson.

• Personal Connection and Scholarly Insights

  • Holly Fry (16:32): "Edward Gorsuch had another son... who was friends with John Wilkes Booth."
  • This revelation adds a layer of personal intrigue, connecting the incident to notable historical figures and illustrating the interconnectedness of historical events.

• Character Analysis of Key Figures

  • Tracy V. Wilson (18:00): "He sounds like an intense dude... very ready to go if it was like, alright, great, we gotta fight these people."
  • Discussion on William Parker, a central figure in the Christiana Incident, exploring his motivations and the societal pressures that shaped his actions.

---

Podcast Production and Topic Selection

Beyond historical discussions, Holly and Tracy provide listeners with a glimpse into the behind-the-scenes aspects of producing their podcast.

• Topic Planning and Organization

  • Tracy V. Wilson (24:32): "I have this list of potential topic episodes... Christiana was up near the top of that list."
  • They share their methods for brainstorming and organizing potential topics, utilizing spreadsheets and digital notes to keep track of ideas.

• Collaborative Efforts

  • Holly Fry (25:14): "I keep my list on my phone... if I am traveling and I haven't started a show yet, I'll be like, what am I thinking of?"
  • Emphasis on the collaborative dynamic between the hosts, ensuring a steady flow of content despite their busy schedules.

• Managing Idea Overflow

  • Tracy V. Wilson (26:09): "I am more likely to lose track of things that are in the notes app."
  • They discuss the challenges of managing numerous ideas, often filtering through notes to find the most relevant and engaging topics for their audience.

---

Personal Anecdotes and Listener Engagement

Interwoven with their historical analyses, Holly and Tracy share personal stories that humanize their podcast and foster a connection with listeners.

• Unexpected Acts of Kindness

  • Holly Fry (27:08): "While I was waiting for one of my friends... a woman asked me to hold her puppy."
  • A heartwarming anecdote about spontaneously helping a stranger, illustrating the unpredictable and joyful moments in daily life.

• Embracing Serendipity

  • Tracy V. Wilson (28:41): "We stopped at this little locally owned coffee roastery... and there was somebody with the cutest little corgi."
  • Another story highlighting the delight of unexpected encounters, encouraging listeners to remain open to the small pleasures around them.

---

Conclusion

Holly and Tracy wrap up the episode by reiterating the importance of understanding the nuanced steps leading to significant historical events like the Civil War. They encourage listeners to appreciate the complexity of history and recognize the potential parallels in contemporary societal moments.

• Holly Fry (30:37): "It's important to look at history because we're all experiencing a lot of moments that are important and could potentially be steps to bigger things that are scary."
• Tracy V. Wilson (30:41): "Yeah."

They leave listeners with a hopeful message, wishing them enjoyable weekends filled with small joys and moments of kindness.

• Holly Fry (30:41): "I hope that you have a lot of fun and that surprise puppies land in your world..."
• Tracy V. Wilson (31:21): "Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio..."

---

Notable Quotes

• Holly Fry:

  • "[02:31] We talked about Pope Leo XIII this week."
  • "[06:50] He was very good at outreach and PR..."
  • "[10:57] And he's... I'm fascinated by it all."
  • "[15:31] Edward Gorsuch had another son... who was friends with John Wilkes Booth."

• Tracy V. Wilson:

  • "[02:56] I more struggled with the grammatical construction than the content."
  • "[15:19] Christiana riot, Christiana resistance, Christiana incident..."
  • "[24:32] I have this list of potential topic episodes..."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode masterfully balances scholarly discussion with personal storytelling, offering listeners both educational insights and relatable experiences. By dissecting complex historical figures and events, Holly and Tracy encourage a deeper appreciation for the multifaceted nature of history, emphasizing that understanding the past is crucial for navigating the present and future.

---

For more episodes, visit the iHeartRadio app or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Holly Fry]

NBC Nightly News legacy isn't handed down or NBC News. I'm Tom Brokaw. We hope to see you back here. I'm Lester Holt. It's carried forward.

[Tom Yamas]

Tom Yamas is there for us.

[Holly Fry]

Firefighters are still working around the clock. As the world changes, we look for what endures. We are coming on the air with breaking news right now. We look for a constant and from one era to the next, Trust is the anchor For NBC Nightly News. I'm Tom Yamas. A new chapter begins NBC Nightly News with Tom Yamas. Evenings on NBC. Listen to your elders, honey. You might know them from their viral videos, but now the old gays are pulling back the curtain with their new podcast, silver Linings with the Old Gays, brought to you in partnership with iHeart's Ruby Studio and Veeve Healthcare. Hosts Robert, Mick, Bill and Jesse serve their lifetime of wisdom when it comes to love, sex, community and whatever else they've got on the gay agenda. So check out Silver Linings with the old gays on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maria Tremarchi]

Explore the winding halls of historical true crime with Holly Fry and Maria Tremarchi, hosts of Criminalia, as they uncover curious cases from the past. The legend of the highwayman suggests men dominated the field, but tell that to Lady Catherine Ferrers, known as the wicked lady who terrorized England in the mid-1600s. Her legend persists nearly 400 years after her death. Highwaymen are in the hot seat this season. Find more crime and cocktails on Criminalia. Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jake Hanrahan]

I'm Jake Hanrahan, journalist and documentary filmmaker. Away Days is my new project reporting on countercultures on the fringes of society all across the world. Live from the underground, you'll discover no rules fighting, Japanese street racing, Brazilian favela life and much more. All real, completely uncensored. Listen to the Away Days podcast. Reporting from the underbelly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Holly Fry]

Welcome to stuff you missed in history class, a production of iHeartradio. Hello and happy Friday. I'm Holly Fry.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

[Holly Fry]

We talked about Pope Leo XIII this week.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Sure did.

[Holly Fry]

These are always tricky cause I wanna always include as much as I can about, you know, their positions on religion without being without offering commentary on it. But it's tricky, especially when it fell to you to read some of the. More like super pro old school Catholicism stuff that he wrote.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right. I more struggled with the grammatical construction than like the content. I'm like, you know, I read whatever. Whatever we're quoting, I read it. Those are not my personal words that are coming out of my mouth. It's a quote. But like, there were multiple times that there were just the words were in an order that my brain was really having a hard time with.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. And some of that is that it's translated from Latin.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

And some of that is that it was translated a long time ago when it was pretty customary for a lot of English language official documents to be more stilted anyway.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

I don't know who did those translations.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But I have so little familiarity with like any of the like, doctrine of the Catholic Church.

[Holly Fry]

Oh.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Because like, I grew up in an area that was overwhelmingly Protestant Christian.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I feel like I could count the number of like Catholic students in my school classes in single digits, being one digit, being my one finger holding it up to count one person. And some of that was because there were Catholic private schools that a lot of the Catholic kids went to that I would not have known otherwise. But just like that was overwhelmingly. There were the flavors of Protestantism that were mostly what was represented in my day to day life. So it's like most of my familiarity is more the things that are widely represented in various popular culture, like the fact that the Pope exists and confession and monasteries, like you sort of absorb those kinds of ideas through media and whatever. And then when we were getting into things about his documents that he was writing, I was like, none of this is really connecting to things in my brain very well.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

It's interesting. Right. I grew up half my mother's side of the family, very Roman Catholic, so definitely grew up with that. And it, it was very funny. When Pope Leo XIV was announced, where was I? I was somewhere, I think we were driving home from either the vet's office or like coffee with a friend. And Brian was reading it to me on his phone. Cause I was driving and he was like, oh, he's Pope Leo xiv. And I was like, oh, this is very. Oh yeah, this is a very interesting choice. And I was just like spouting off things I knew about Pope Leo XIII to poor Brian, who was like, okay. And I did see a lot of news, Leo xiii that summated him in ways that removed the complications of his papacy. And there is an interesting thing that has emerged in like the last 20 years where. And even longer really probably more like 40 to 50 years where historians and scholars, you know, in the early half of the 20th century, there was a lot of, like, I don't wanna say whitewashing. Cause that's not accurate, but there was a lot of writing about him that made him seem much more liberal than he was. Sure. He was obviously, in some ways, very progressive and liberal for his time. The fact that there was a Pope in the early 1900s going, no workers unions, was pretty groundbreaking. But he also. There was a lot of writing that left out how much. He was like, nope, we're not going to change the church ever. Yeah, you gotta straighten up and fly right if you wanna be at our party. And it was like a lot of that gets left out.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right? Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

And I mean, that doesn't necessarily detract from the progressive things he did.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

But it is a partial picture and it oversimplifies the complexity of any human being, and particularly a human being that does wield a lot of power. Even though he may not have held the political maneuverability in terms of, like, ruling papal states that prior pops had had, he still was very influential on a huge portion of the global population. And as we mentioned at the end, he was very good at outreach and PR and talking to other people that were not part of the Catholic Church that had power and, you know, creating relationships with them that he could then exert power through. So he's really fascinating to me. Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I was on vacation when the Conclave happened and was not really looking at news a lot because I was on vacation.

[Holly Fry]

Hooray.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But I got a push, a push notification on my phone from a group chat that I'm in that just said white smoke. And then, like, the next time I actually looked at that group chat just had an enormously long discussion. And I was like, I'm not reading any of this, but couple of people had, like, in my social circle had pointed to sort of threads of analysis of, like, this choice of Pope and what it could mean and stuff like that. And I was reading through them and I was like, I just. I don't understand. I don't know what half of these things that you're talking about are. Like, they were talking about different kind of factions within the Church, different movements that had happened. And I was like, I've never heard of any of this at all. Like, it's just not within my scope in a lot of ways.

[Holly Fry]

Right. Well, it is really interesting to watch the ways the selection of the Pope has often been a hard shift from what has gone before. That was almost one of the more unique things about the selection of Leo XIV is that they actually said, oh, this was Pope Francis pick. Well, then that's our guy. Like, it wasn't so much like, no, no. We should hard shift to a far more conservative stance than Francis had because that was getting us in trouble. Or picking a moderate. Like, just. So how quickly that conclave played out and that they picked his guy was really interesting.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. I was not expecting the. Somebody had mentioned, like, oh, the conclave starting, and I was like, yeah, I'll probably go on for a while. I was 100% wrong in that this is why I should not talk about things that I have very little familiarity with.

[Holly Fry]

Well, we did. I mean, the thing is, though, nobody knew. I mean, there were discussions going into that. Like, the second Francis passed, there was a lot of like, are they gonna, like, rubber band back the other way? Are they gonna try to find someone who's a little middle ground? Are they? Now, granted, I do feel like there will be more middle ground than people may be hoping with the new. Sure. But, yeah, it's just the whole thing is fascinating to me. And having been raised half Catholic, it's super fascinating. When we were in Italy and we were walking through the Vatican Museum, I was losing my mind and writing down names of popes as we went for things that I wanted to cover in the future. Leo XIII was one of them. So this offered up an opportunity because he is, you know, he gets a lot of, like, nicknames that are very much like, he was a magical unicorn, gateway between Catholicism and the new. The new era of industrialization. And I mean, I guess if you really reduce things down, you could say that. Yes. But it's so much more complicated. And more recent scholars have pointed out, like, hey, those versions that we read in the nineteen teens about his life are really, really adoring.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right, Right.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. You know, and he's. I'm fascinated. I'm fascinated by it all.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Tom Yamas]

Hi, Zoe Saldana. Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us.

[Holly Fry]

Thanks. And here's my old phone to trade in.

[Tom Yamas]

You don't need a trade in when you switch to T Mobile. We'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro. Plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it.

[Andrea Gunning]

There's always a trade end.

[Tom Yamas]

Not right now. @ T Mobile.

[Andrea Gunning]

I feel like I have to give.

[Holly Fry]

You something in return for karma.

[Tom Yamas]

That's okay.

[Andrea Gunning]

I don't really have much in my purse.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, let's see.

[Andrea Gunning]

Hand sanitizer.

[Maria Tremarchi]

It's lavender.

[Tom Yamas]

I'm good.

[Holly Fry]

Seriously. Let me check this pocket.

[Andrea Gunning]

Oh, mints.

[Tom Yamas]

Really, I'm fine.

[Andrea Gunning]

Oh, I have raisins.

[Maria Tremarchi]

I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec.

[Holly Fry]

I've got cupcakes in the car. It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile. Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on us. No trade in needed. Will even pay off your phone up to 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line $100 plus a month on experience beyond finance agreement $999.99 and qualifying. Boarded for well qualified plus tax and $10 connection charge. Payout via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits and imbalance due if you pay off early or cancel.

[Unknown]

CT mobile.com tired of spills and stains on your sofa? Wash away your worries with Annabe. Annabe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slip covers made with performance fabric. Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Shop washablesofas.com for up to 60% off site wide backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return, shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all, his wife, Caroline.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.

[Dexter Thomas]

She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing.

[Holly Fry]

No?

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?

[Holly Fry]

You're unable to keep track of all your lies, and quite frankly, I question how many other women may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Andrea Gunning]

This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dexter Thomas]

Are there any pictures of you online? I'M not just talking about Google. I'm talking anywhere.

[Unknown]

Clearview scrapes together images from Facebook, from LinkedIn, from Venmo accounts.

[Dexter Thomas]

That database is now being used by police departments all across the country to match criminal suspect photos. And sometimes it makes mistakes.

[Unknown]

So in this one case, two of their search results that I think were in the top 10. 10 of the search results were Michael Jordan, a picture of Michael Jordan.

[Dexter Thomas]

But cops are still using it to make arrests.

[Unknown]

Police, they are trusting this software to lead them to the right suspect, but you're not even being told that it was used, let alone given any of the details about how it works.

[Dexter Thomas]

This is not Minority Report. This is happening right now. People are getting arrested and doing actual time in jail after being picked out by a computer. I'm Dexter Thomas, host to Kill Switch, where every Wednesday we explain the right now of living in the future. You can turn off the computer, but do not let the computer turn you off. Listen to Kill switch in the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Holly Fry]

We talked about the Christiana incident this week.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, I'm glad that you did this one, because it had been lingering on my shortlist literally for years, just hanging out there. Christiana riot with a question mark afterward.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Not even researched enough to really think about whether riot was the correct term to use there or not. Just there on the list. Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

It gets written about in, as we said at the top of the show, the Christiana riot, the Christiana resistance, the Christiana incident. And I think part of the problem is that the actual details of what happened in those, you know, 90 minutes where things were really happening are so messy and confusing that there's almost no way to know what the right thing was. Except that we know that the first shots fired were Gorsuch's people.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. And like, we've talked in various previous episodes about how often things that are described as, quote, race riots. Like, that term is woefully incorrect and loaded in terms of describing what actually happened, which was often a white mob attacking a black community that then became described as a race riot.

[Holly Fry]

Yes. There's an interesting weird tie in that I discovered that doesn't really fit in the narrative, but I was like, what? So Edward Gorsuch had another son that was younger than Dickinson named Thomas. Thomas went to school with and was friends with a younger boy named John Wilkes Booth.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Holly Fry]

It's one of those things, too. This comes up a lot for me, and I imagine it does for you, and really Anyone that studies history, particularly of the US's earlier years, because it's so populated now that the idea of so many people knowing each other seems absurd. But then you'll read these things and it's like this person was tied to this person and also knew this person. And I'm like, were there seven people living in the US for a long time? But it really was much smaller in terms of population than it is now. It's hard to consider. Even so, that's still a weird coincidence in my opinion. John Wilkes Booth, just in case anybody doesn't remember, I'll remember. But just in case is the person who assassinated Abraham Lincoln. The wild times. This did become for me, such a fascinating look at what all was going on. And I highly recommend, if people find this story interesting, that you go read William Parker's story in the Atlantic. It's listed in the show notes as one of the sources because he is a character in a way, not in the jovial way that you would often use that term, but he sounds like an intense dude that was very ready to go if it was like, all right, great, we gotta fight these people, we gotta fight these people. There's no questions about it. And there's a phrasing that he used at one point where he was talking about one of the things that his group of men. And it's very interesting because even in older write ups and newer, it's often described as a vigilance society, but not very specifically a vigilante society, which is an interesting thing. But that he would basically, like, everybody had to swear their intentions before they would go do a thing like, listen, we all know this guy is giving up people who are gonna get kidnapped and taken away. We have reached the point where we have to burn his house down. You guys all have to swear that you're in for this and that nobody's gonna like turn tail. And he would do that before any of these things, it sounds like. And that to me is just a very fascinating sort of careful way to measure intention and quite thoughtful because at that point he has all of them on some sort of record like everyone else in the group has witnessed. You, you said you were going to do this. We're all doing this. That just fascinated me. Yeah, he, he, he kind of abruptly left his wife though, which makes me sad. I don't know what their relationship was, right. But I was like, oh, that's a, oh, that's a sad ending. All right. They've been through so much. Stay together, make love. Last they had a lot of kids together. But, you know, everybody's life takes a different path. I don't know what his personal life experience was.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I was just thinking, you never know.

[Holly Fry]

You never know. Maybe it was miserable. I don't know. I don't know.

[Tom Yamas]

Hi, Zoe Saldana. Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us.

[Andrea Gunning]

Thanks.

[Holly Fry]

And here's my old phone to trade in.

[Tom Yamas]

You don't need a trade in. When you switch to T Mobile, we'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro. Plus we'll help you pay off your old phone. Up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it.

[Holly Fry]

There's always a trade in.

[Tom Yamas]

Not right now. @ T Mobile.

[Andrea Gunning]

I feel like I have to give.

[Holly Fry]

You something in return for karma.

[Tom Yamas]

That's okay.

[Andrea Gunning]

I don't really have much in my purse.

[Maria Tremarchi]

Oh, let's see.

[Andrea Gunning]

Hand sanitizer.

[Maria Tremarchi]

It's lavender.

[Tom Yamas]

I'm good. Seriously.

[Holly Fry]

Let me check this pocket.

[Andrea Gunning]

Oh, mints.

[Tom Yamas]

Really, I'm fine.

[Andrea Gunning]

Oh, I have raisins.

[Maria Tremarchi]

I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec.

[Holly Fry]

I've got cupcakes in the car. It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile, get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on us. No trade in needed. Will even pay off your phone. Up to 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line $100 plus a month on experience beyond finance agreement $999.99 and qualifying ported for well qualified plus tax and $10 connection charge. Payout via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits and imbalance due if you pay off early or cancel.

[Unknown]

CT mobile.com tired of spills and stains on your sofa? Wash away your worries with Annabe. Annabe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slip covers made with performance fabric Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged and anytime. Shop washablesofas.com for up to 60% off site wide backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'M Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife, Caroline.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Andrea Gunning]

Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.

[Dexter Thomas]

She said you left bruises, pulled her hair, that type of thing.

[Holly Fry]

No.

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?

[Holly Fry]

You're unable to keep track of all your lies, and quite frankly, I question how many other women may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Andrea Gunning]

This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dexter Thomas]

Are there any pictures of you online? I'm not just talking about Google. I'm talking anywhere.

[Unknown]

Clearview scrapes together images from Facebook, from LinkedIn, from Venmo accounts.

[Dexter Thomas]

That database is now being used by police departments all across the country to match criminal suspect photos. And sometimes it makes mistakes.

[Unknown]

So in this one case, two of their search results that I think were in the top 10 of the search results were Michael Jordan, a picture of Michael Jordan, but cops are still using.

[Dexter Thomas]

It to make arrests.

[Unknown]

Police, they are trusting this software to lead them to the right suspect, but you're not even being told that it was used, let alone given any of the details about how it works.

[Dexter Thomas]

This is not Minority Report. This is happening right now. People are getting arrested and doing actual time in jail after being picked out by a computer. I'm Dexter Thomas, host to Kill Switch, where every Wednesday we explain the right now of living in the future. You can turn off the computer, but do not let the computer turn you off. Listen to Kill switch in the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Holly Fry]

I started working on this kind of in a fit, and it was in the middle of the night, as I am often working in the middle of the night because my circadian rhythms are weird. And then I was like. Took a few hours in, and I was like, I should check with Tracy, because I'm not sure if you had mentioned it at one point in the past, but I was like, I feel like this was one she was thinking about doing. Yeah. And bless you. You were like, yeah, but I haven't done it. So go ahead.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I have this list of potential topic episodes, and it's like, down at the bottom of a spreadsheet that we use for planning out what we're doing.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like what we're recording, when. And it's wild to me that we're still using a spreadsheet. I just. I have not thought of a better way to do it to make sure that we have enough episodes recorded to account for upcoming time off. But down below, it is just this, like, huge list of things that I've been thinking about doing. And Christiana was, like, up near the top of that list. So it's totally possible that looking at that calendar repeatedly, it sounds.

[Holly Fry]

I probably remembered it. Yeah. Yeah. Because I keep my list on my phone. Because sometimes I'll do stuff like if I am traveling and I haven't started a show yet, I'll be like, what am I thinking of? I have time on this flight I could maybe start. And I don't always have my computer with me on those on trips.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right. I make notes. If I'm out about. Out and about in the world and I see something that seems interesting, a lot of times I will put it into a notes app. The other day, I'm not gonna spoil what it was, but the other day I was doing a thing that made me think of something to maybe do as an episode. And so I just emailed myself from my phone.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, yeah, I do that all the.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Time with just that one word in the subject line. Like, I'll remember what this means on Tuesday when I return to the office.

[Holly Fry]

How often do you not remember what that means?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I am more likely to lose track of things that are in the notes app, especially if, like, a really long time has passed between putting something in a note and then, like, if I kind of go, I'm running short of ideas. Do I have anything that I didn't transfer over to the list from the notes app. And occasionally I will run into stuff that I will think at first was a topic idea for the show and it will turn out to be something absolutely unrelated to the podcast.

[Holly Fry]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, I've done that. You know, sometimes you'll be like, I say you. I mean that in the general. Not you, Tracy Wilson.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Sure.

[Holly Fry]

You know, you'll be like, oh, yeah, I'll remember. Of course I'll remember. This. This is very important. It's made an impact on me. It's really made an impression on me. I'll never. For. What was that? I don't even know. This name means all the time.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

When I emailed myself this one word subject line of an email with nothing else, I was like, I'm am I going to remember what this means when I get back to work. We'll see.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, sometimes I do and other times no. But I have to write everything down because otherwise some other shiny object will supplant it and then I won't talk about. Or I'll be like a kitty. Look, listen. Unrelated to history, unrelated to anything, I'm going to tell you of an amazing thing that happened to me at the airport. Great. So we are coming off of a weekend when I had a lot of people that came into town to spend time with us, which was wonderful. And while I was waiting for one of my friends at the arrivals lobby, I had seen this woman walk by a couple times holding a puppy. And then she looped around a third time. And she looked at me and said, will you hold this puppy while I set up a little playpen for him? And I was like, are you also gonna offer me a million dollars and a cake? Like, what? Of course. Give me the puppy. It was the cutest little thing. And it turned out she was meeting the puppy's new people and they had not gotten in yet. And the puppy needed to stretch his legs. She's like, I can't carry him around and I don't wanna leave him in the carrier. He's very young and I'm worried he needs a potty pad. And so I wanna set up his thing, but I can't hold him and do it. Can you hold him? And I was just like, the bliss, the sweetest puppy. The puppy licked my face and I almost. There was a flash in my brain of, if you just run out the door right now, this is your puppy. I don't need a puppy. I'm not equipped for a puppy. But it was so sweet. It was a great moment. Sometimes the universe gives you puppy kisses.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Just cause.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, we. Some friends and I went on a hike over the weekend. And we were gonna hike and then we were gonna get in the car and drive approximately two and a half hours to get back to where we all live. And as we were in the car setting off, we all kind of realized we were more tired than we thought we were gonna be. And so my friend who was driving was like, okay, if I see a place to buy coffee, we're stopping.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Said, great. And so we stopped at this, like, little locally owned coffee roastery. We went in, we each got something to drink. We came out and there was somebody with the cutest little corgi outside of the coffee shop. And so we all got to have surprise corgi time.

[Holly Fry]

It's the best. Surprise puppy time is pretty magical. Now you're making me want to go and buy a coffee at a cute new place near us.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Maybe there will be a surprise puppy dog.

[Holly Fry]

They're probably not, but you never know. But there's a place near us that has a really yummy banana latte that I'm obsessed with, and now I have to go get another one.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay.

[Holly Fry]

Delicious. They also have a lavender latte with. Is it jalapeno sugar on it? Oh, it sounds wild, but it's so perfect and delicious. I love it. Anyway, I'm glad we got to take a look at this topic this week. I'll loop it back to history because we always talk in broad strokes. Not we, people in general. You know, there's a presumption that we know how the Civil War, like, ratcheted up to the point that it became a declaration of war. But there are a lot of moments like this that are important steps on the way to it, and I think it's important to look at them because we're all experiencing a lot of moments that are important and could potentially be steps to bigger things that are scary. And I just think it's important to look at history. Thank you.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

If this is your weekend coming up, I hope it kicks butt. I hope you have a great time. I hope you have a lot of fun and that surprise puppies land in your world who don't want that? Maybe the delicious coffee, if that's your thing. Even if it's not your weekend, maybe you could have surprise puppy time. I hope that everybody is kind to one another, and if you don't have time off this weekend, I really hope that you at least sneak a little bit of time away for yourself in whatever way recharges you best, whether that is alone or with people you love. We will be right back here tomorrow with a classic episode, and then on Monday, we will have something brand new.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Maria Tremarchi]

Explore the winding halls of historical true crime with Holly Fry and Maria Tremarchi, hosts of Criminalia, as they uncover curious cases from the past. The legend of the Highwayman suggests men dominated the field, but tell that to Lady Catherine Ferrers, known as the wicked lady who terrorized England in the mid-1600s, her legend persists nearly 400 years after her death. Highwaymen are in the hot seat this season. Find more crime and cocktails on Criminalia Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jake Hanrahan]

I'm Jake Hanrahan, journalist and documentary filmmaker. Away Days is my new project reporting on countercultures on the fringes of society all across the world. Live from the underground, you'll discover no rules fighting, Japanese street racing, Brazilian favela life, and much more. All real, completely uncensored. Listen to the Away Days podcast, reporting from the underbelly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Holly Fry]

A body, a suspect, and a hundred years of silence. Buried Bones is a podcast about the forgotten crimes history tried to leave behind. A common misperception about serial predators is that every single time they commit a crime, they commit it the same way. The past is a way of talking, if you know what to listen for. New episodes every Wednesday on the Exactly Right Network. Listen to Buried bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. OpenAI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be an aberration, a symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm going to tell you why on my show, Better Offline, the rudest show in the tech industry where we're breaking down why OpenAI, along with other AI companies, are dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job. I'm also going to be talking with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you happen to get your podcasts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is an iHeart podcast.