Behind the Scenes Minis: Stairs and Trains

Summary

Stuff You Missed in History Class

Behind the Scenes Minis: Stairs and Trains

Hosts: Tracy V. Wilson & Holly Frey
Date: July 3, 2026
Podcast: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

This "Behind the Scenes Minis" episode features Tracy and Holly in a relaxed, reflective conversation about their recent episode research journeys, including Tracy’s field trip to Boston’s Bunker Hill Monument and an extended museum adventure in Oxford, England. The discussion is permeated by reflections on accessibility, historical memory, women in history, the process of historical research, and the impact of persistent myths. The co-hosts also share candid insights about travel planning, managing physical challenges (like lots and lots of stairs!), and cultural observations from their latest explorations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Climbing the Bunker Hill Monument

• Tracy describes her recent field trip to the Bunker Hill Monument in Boston, including her experience climbing its 294 stairs.

  • She took the climb slowly and let faster people pass her; some who passed her struggled at the summit, highlighting the importance of pacing. [03:17]
  • The viewing experience from the top was impressive, although Tracy avoided stepping on a "terrifying grate" in the floor. [03:52]
  • Going down felt harder because there were no numbered steps as markers, making progress harder to track. [04:04]
  • Quote: "Coming back down was a little bit harder... On the way down, all you really have is occasionally there's a little narrow slit window and you can look out and try to estimate how high up you still are." – Tracy [04:19]

• Comparison to St. Peter’s Basilica, Rome (Holly’s trip):

  • Holly recounts being intimidated by the extremely narrow, enclosed stairwell to the dome, opting not to attempt it due to claustrophobia. [05:14]
  • Tracy notes Bunker Hill’s stairway, while narrow, was more manageable, though challenging for backpack-wearers and not universally accessible. [05:44]

• Accessibility Considerations:

  • The summit is not accessible for those with mobility issues, but a live camera view is available at the base’s lodge, which is accessible and includes elevators. [12:11]
  • Quote: "There is no elevator... But in the lodge down at the bottom, there is a big screen that has live camera views of the view from the top. That's sort of the way of trying to make that accessible." – Tracy [12:13]

2. Investigating the Monument’s Historical Interpretation

• Tracy describes confusion over various news reports regarding recently installed quote panels at Bunker Hill, unclear origin of the panels, and possible misreporting. [06:24, 07:44]

• She attended ranger talks, learned that some famous quotes (e.g., “Don’t fire until you see the whites of their eyes”) are debunked by staff, and heard intriguing lore about Lafayette placing the cornerstone in the wrong place. [07:44]

  • Quote: "According to one of the ranger talks... the Marquis de Lafayette... put it in the wrong place, and so people came and moved it in the middle of the night so that they would not embarrass him." – Tracy [07:45]

• The modern exhibit at Bunker Hill reflects on the varied meanings of liberty from 1775 to present, illustrating that even those present at Bunker Hill had different ideals. [08:26]

• Tracy discusses legal orders related to content removal from historic site signs under recent federal mandates, including the particular fate of suffrage-related quotes at Bunker Hill. [09:24]

3. Reflections on Research Process

• Tracy attempted to contact the National Park Service for clarification on installation origins but got no helpful response. [10:24]

• She speculates that the retained (not removed) suffrage quote survived due to its more optimistic framing versus other, more critical quotes. [10:56]

• Narrative Shift: Tracy originally planned to focus on Operation POW and anti-Vietnam War protests but pivoted the episode focus after seeing exhibits firsthand. [11:32]

4. The Role of Monuments and Historical Memory

• Discussion about the intent behind Bunker Hill’s monument design (no words or names on the obelisk), as opposed to explanatory plaques or explicit context. [13:22]

• The hosts examine a dedication speech by Daniel Webster, noting problematic 19th-century attitudes tying happiness and respectability only to "religion and morals and knowledge." [13:22–14:58]

  • Quote: "The part that [says] that it is only religion and morals and knowledge that can make men respectable and happy... I don't like that part." – Tracy [14:00]
  • Reflection: Both agree that excluding nonreligious forms of morality is unfair and that historical perspectives are often exclusive or presumptive.

5. Museum Travel Tales: Oxford & the Curious Herbal

• Tracy recounts an ambitious multi-museum day in Oxford, triggered by seeing an Elizabeth Blackwell reference at the Ashmolean Museum. [20:46]

  • A missed hat due to early departure led to wishing for garden hats in the Ashmolean gift shop. [21:57]

• The Ashmolean’s plant exhibition included art exploring colonialism and environmental impacts of plant collecting. [22:51]

• Tracy prioritized unique galleries (rather than items she'd just seen at the British Museum) to avoid redundancy and maximize her time. [24:14]

• The Story Museum in Oxford was a highlight, appealing to adults who love children’s literature, not just children, and culminating in an emotional exhibit about storytelling in video games. [26:02]

  • Quote: "The last exhibit at the Story Museum was called the Story Arcade... it was beautiful... I got very emotional about it." – Tracy [27:12]

6. On Women Authors, Historical Attitudes, and Correcting Myths

• Tracy reads a scathingly sexist quote from Bruce James’s Lives of Eminent Men of Aberdeen regarding women publishing books, full of period-typical gender prejudice. [29:32]

  • Quote: “For there is something offensive in a woman putting out a book except on some such subject as Mrs. Blackwell handled, or on dancing or cookery or anything of that kind... But when they go the length of writing sonnets, political economy, theories of morals... it is perfectly unbearable.” – Bruce James (read by Tracy) [29:32]
  • Both hosts react with a mix of exasperation and mockery.
  • Quote: "I have a new use for the time machine... I just want to pop up in his house and go ‘bless your heart’ and vanish." – Holly [30:37]

• Tracy notes that Elizabeth Blackwell nonetheless had support among male scientists and that many early women authors’ works had “legitimizing” forewords by men. [31:48]

7. Miscellaneous and Lighthearted Notes

• Janet Stiles Tyson, who corrected much misinformation about Elizabeth Blackwell, began her history PhD in her mid-60s—an inspiring story for lifelong learners. [32:27]

  • Quote: "If you are in your mid-60s and want to start on a PhD, you have my 100% full support." – Tracy [32:56]

• Tracy found Alexander Blackwell’s supposed “lost” ag book online, despite the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography claiming no copy survived—illustrating evolving access to information. [34:09]

• Holly jokes about “her Curious Herbal” (the British pronunciation), recalling comedian Eddie Izzard, and the pair laugh about shifting language and linguistics. [35:00]

• Tracy hints at more England-inspired episodes to come, having used both emails and phone photos to stockpile research fodder. [35:40]

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Most Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Climbing Monument Steps:

  "Coming back down was a little bit harder... You don't really know how much longer down you need to go." – Tracy [04:19]

• Historical Sexism Exposed:

  “There is something offensive in a woman putting out a book except on some such subject as Mrs. Blackwell handled... But when they go the length of writing sonnets, political economy, theories of morals... it is perfectly unbearable.” – Bruce James (read by Tracy) [29:32]

• Wry Modern Rebuttal:

  "I just want to pop up in his house and go ‘bless your heart’ and vanish." – Holly [30:37]

• Philosophical About Monuments:

  "It is a monument to the ongoing work of trying to have a just and informed and fair society." – Tracy [14:25]

• Travel Logistical Woes:

  "I had made a little plan to go to Oxford... then realized that the direct train did not exist on the weekend." – Tracy [21:25]

• Inspirational Academic Sideline:

  "If you are in your mid-60s and want to start on a PhD, you have my 100% full support." – Tracy [32:56]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [03:03] Bunker Hill Monument field trip recap
• [05:01] Comparing monument stair climbs with St. Peter's Basilica
• [07:44] Monument exhibit confusion & ranger lore (Lafayette, etc.)
• [09:24] Quote removal, legal orders, and suffrage quotes
• [12:11] Accessibility at Bunker Hill
• [13:22] Monument inscriptions and Daniel Webster's problematic rhetoric
• [20:46] Oxford trip and the Ashmolean exhibition
• [24:14] Museum touring strategy and Story Museum impressions
• [29:32] Reading and reacting to 19th-century sexism in Lives of Eminent Men of Aberdeen
• [32:27] Janet Stiles Tyson’s late-in-life academic pursuit
• [34:09] The mystery of Alexander Blackwell’s “lost” work
• [35:00] Jokes about “her Curious Herbal” and linguistics

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode features the easy, candid rapport typical of "Behind the Scenes Minis," with plenty of humor, gentle sarcasm, and personal anecdotes. Both Tracy and Holly are thoughtful in critiquing past injustices and modern accessibility challenges, balancing historical empathy with modern sensibility and wit.

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Useful For:

Listeners who:

• Want deeper insight into how history podcasting works "behind the scenes"
• Enjoy travel stories tied to historical discovery
• Appreciate honest conversations about public history, accessibility, and the persistence of myths
• Value female perspectives on the gendered history of authorship and historical analysis

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For those who missed it:
This episode weaves together monument climbs, field-based fact-checking, legal context, and travel logistics with sharp observations about how history is interpreted, who gets to tell it, and how past prejudices linger into the present. The episode offers both lively banter and substantial insight, making it a rewarding listen for history aficionados and curious travelers alike.

Transcript

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I

[Holly Fry]

don't trust much of anything.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It's the rage bait. It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Holly Fry]

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.

[NBC News Announcer]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

[Hoda Kotb]

Joy is essential and it's also elusive. But now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy101 It's a new podcast hosted by me. How to Kot Me. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting and moving on air chats. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Joy101 and listen now. Joy 101 with Hoda Kotfi is presented by CBS.

[Sophia]

My husband is at a spa resort with his mistress right now and I'm calling the hotel to confront them both.

[Dakota]

Wait a minute, Dakota. She's calling the hotel while they're checked in together?

[Sophia]

Yeah, that's right, Sophia. And it gets worse. It's vacate to vacation week on the OK Storytime podcast where she caught him buying gifts on Amazon and then taped a 10 page letter inside his luggage before he flew out.

[Dakota]

So she planted evidence before he even took off.

[Sophia]

And spoiler Sophia. Two years later, karma hits so hard he's calling his ex wife in tears saying about his mistress. What a mistake that was.

[Dakota]

To find out what happened, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chuck]

Hey, this is Chuck from Stuff youf Should Know and we're submitting our most science Y episodes for your peer review with our new stuff you should know. Doing science playlist out now. You want to know about Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the right one, but we got you covered. Wondered what chaos theory is ever since the first time you saw Jurassic Park. Well, come on down. So distill a nice pot of tea, everybody. Turn down the gas on your Bunsen burner and slip into your most comfortable lab coat and listen to the stuff you should know. Doing Science Playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Holly Fry]

Welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartradio.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson. And I'm Holly Fry. This week we talked about the Bunker Hill Monument because I had a little field trip.

[Holly Fry]

I told you I had a question about the field trip. Please tell me, did you do the steps?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I did do the steps. I walked up all of those steps. I walked. It was not that bad, but I also walked more slowly than anyone else. I several times moved over to let somebody else go past me and some of the people that were pushing themselves past me. I then got to the top and they were ready to collapse. So I did do it, but I did it slowly. And then I spent some time up there taking pictures of the view from the top of it. It was a. A clear but overcast day. So there was a. You could see a long way, which was very nice. There's also just a terrifying grate in the floor that I refused to step on because I was like, I don't know if that goes all the way to the bottom, but I feel like it does.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And so I just don't wanna mess with that. And then weirdly, coming back down was a little bit harder because going up periodically, there is a number painted on the face of the step. Like 50, 150, whatever.

[Holly Fry]

You can do your fractions.

[NBC News Announcer]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

You can know how much farther you have to go. And then on the way down, all you really have is occasionally there's a little narrow slit window and you can look out and try to estimate how high up you still are. So you're coming down and you don't really know how much longer down you need to go.

[Holly Fry]

I immediately wondered, because when I was in Italy in April, did you know you can go up on the roof of St. Peter's Basilica?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I did not.

[Holly Fry]

You can.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

How many steps is that? Well, you could take an elevator up.

[Holly Fry]

I think it's like three floors. Or you could take the elevator, but then from the roof you can go up into the dome.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay.

[Holly Fry]

Which is like 515 steps or something around there. And I was. We were very debatey. We were leaning towards. But then we saw the entry to the Stairwell.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Mm.

[Holly Fry]

It's not open. It's enclosed, and it's very narrow. And I was like, I'm gonna have a panic attack at step one 53. And you won't be able to get other people past me because I will just collapse and cry. Cause it's literally so narrow. Like, if you and I were passing each other in that, like, hallway, essentially stairwell, we would have to go, like, both of us would have to put backs against the wall to slide through. And I was like, nope, nope, nope. Below.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. So this is not quite that narrow. You did have to kind of squeeze to get around people, but you did not have to go, like, face to face or back to back to do it. Yeah, I had a small backpack on because I was kind of out for the day doing walking around stuff, and I wanted sunscreen and water and all of that. And I felt a little awkward with it, trying to let people by or on the way down work around people. So I do not think you would have enjoyed that stair climb at all. Also, I'm lazy.

[Holly Fry]

I would be like, stairs, nice. Is there somewhere to get a breezy beverage?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It felt. It was a very warm day that day, and it felt cooler inside the monument than it did outside, which I think helped. But when I got home, which after leaving the monument, going to the two ranger talks that I went to, I walked from there to North Station along the Harbor Walk, which nobody who doesn't live in Boston knows what I'm talking about, but it was a long walk. I kind of went by the Charlestown Naval Yard to get there, and then I got home and I did nothing for the rest of the day. Yeah, I watched a whole lot of television. So, yeah, I went down there because I felt like when I read these news reports, I was like, okay, the quotes belong there for some reason. I can't tell what the reason is from any of these articles. And that was across the board. Every article I read, I was like, I don't understand what this exhibit is that these have come from. Are they all from one exhibit? Are they from different parts of the monument? One of the articles was straightforwardly incorrect and said that the quotes were in the museum that's across the street, which that's not where I think there might have been one of them somewhere in there. But, like, that's. It's not really what was being talked about.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And so I just went down there on a Saturday morning to figure it out. A couple of interesting things besides my climb up the tower that came from that little visit is that according to one of the ranger talks that I heard the Marquis de Lafayette, when he did the cornerstone, he put it in the wrong place. And so people came and moved it in the middle of the night so that they would not embarrass him. I don't know if that's. That sounds almost like, you know, unsubstantiated lore to me, but I don't know. Both of the rangers that did talks while I was there seemed very knowledgeable and to know what they were talking about. And they were both very ready to say, nobody said, don't hold. Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes.

[Holly Fry]

Right?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like, they seem to be on board with the debunking of things. So maybe that is definitely something that happened, but I wasn't able to confirm it. Also, the rangers were also talking about a lot of the things that are kind of carried through in this exhibit from the lodge about how liberty has meant different things to different people between 1775 and now, and how liberty meant different things to the men who were there. Like, people could be fighting for very different ideals, but all believing they were fighting for liberty. So that was great. Saw a demonstration of firing a musket. That was fun. So, yeah, it was a nice morning. And then, not only on a Friday afternoon, but also while I was off of work visiting my parents, the order came from the judge saying, you gotta stop taking down all of this stuff. And I have not thoroughly read the whole order from the judge, but there was sort of a list of things that had already been removed. It talked about the president's house site, which was covered on the show before. There was a section of things that had been flagged for removal, but not removed yet. And one of them was these quotes from the Bunker Hill Monument. And, yeah, I'm sure that there will be an appeal by the federal government of this, but for now, no more things should be removed from park signs and whatnot under the Restoring Truth, Insanity to American History executive order and the Department of the Interior orders that followed it. I did try to get in touch with the National Park Service to ask a couple of questions about, like, when for sure was this exhibit created? Because I thought the answer was 2023, but I didn't know for sure. I had a couple of other questions that were just like, who wrote this? These panels? Like, oh, right. Was it somebody at the National Park Service? Was it third party or whatever? The response I got was, forbidden. You don't have permission to access this resource, which was the result I got when I submitted the rep. The web form. So, great, great. I don't know. There was no phone number. There was only the web form and a mailing address. I can only speculate about why the quote about suffrage that spawned the whole investigation into the Bunker Hill Monument was not removed. My speculation is that it was more optimistic in its framing because it was sort of like, we don't have suffrage yet, but we're gonna get it, and this monument is still ours. And some of the other quotes that were supposed to be removed were more critical. Also, before I actually went down there, I had thought that this episode was going to be just about Operation POW and the anti Vietnam War march that happened. I don't know if that will happen at some point in the future, because once I actually saw what that exhibit was trying to do, I was like, that's a different story now in my head than the Operation POW1. So, yeah, I have lived within five to 10 miles of the Bunker Hill monument since 2014 and have seen it out the window every time I have gone to the airport. And now that I live north of Boston, every time I go into Boston for some reason. And I had just never been down there until they were ordered to take down some signs. Then I was like, I gotta go see what that's all about.

[Holly Fry]

There you go.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So, yeah, yeah, there is no elevator. So the top, walking to the top is not accessible to people with mobility issues or physical disabilities. But in the lodge down at the bottom, there is a big screen that has live camera views of the view from the top. So, like, that's sort of the way of trying to make that accessible when it's really not possible to put an elevator in there or somehow make it not have almost 300 steps.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, that's a good solve.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. And the, like, the lodge is accessible and the museum is accessible and has elevators also.

[Holly Fry]

So, yeah, I'm still thinking about Tracy and I had an aside while we were recording.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, yeah.

[Holly Fry]

After recording the Everett quote about how, unlike Egyptian monuments, these would have plaques to explain what they are. And my, of course, off the cuff thing was like, just because you can't read hieroglyphics.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Fry]

But also, those aren't the same things.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. Well, yeah. And when they made the Bunker Hill Monument, they intentionally did not put words on it. That was part of the. They. They didn't want it. There was a discussion of putting, like, all the names on it or something like that. And they. In the End were like, okay, we're not putting any words on this. I also, we read the chunk of the dedication speech from Daniel Webster that I. I really liked the sentiment of a lot of the speech, but the part that saying that it is only religion and morals and knowledge that can make men respectable and happy.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

That was not something that I. Well, it's also that.

[Holly Fry]

That thing, right, that, like, people who are not religious can also have morals.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Correct? Yes. If you have a religion and your religion brings you happiness and you also feel like your morals are informed by your religion and that's important to you. I am not criticizing that at all.

[Holly Fry]

Cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But, yeah, the idea that it is only religion and morals and knowledge, I was like, I don't like that part. And just snipping that part out felt dishonest. And also, so much of the rest of what we read tied into what I feel like the exhibit was trying to do in terms of, like, this is not just a monument to a battle that happened. It is a monument to the ongoing work of trying to have a just and informed and fair society. Like, I wanted to include all of that.

[Holly Fry]

So I'm also sure had we asked him if other religions that weren't the one he practiced were cool, he would have been like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So, like, obviously there's some hubris and presumption involved.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Correct?

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. So, anyway, I'm glad I made that trip to the Bunker Hill Monument. I have no idea what I am going to research next for the podcast. I gotta figure it out now because I was going to do something that was related to the Revolutionary War, but we have had three of those in a row from me now. And I now feel that even though it is the 250th anniversary, that I feel surrounded by 250 stuff living in Massachusetts. I feel personally done with that for now. I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I

[Holly Fry]

don't trust much of anything.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It's the rage bait. It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Holly Fry]

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down, down a little.

[NBC News Announcer]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News, reporting for America.

[Hoda Kotb]

Hey, I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.

[Holly Fry]

Okay.

[Hoda Kotb]

If you know me, you know this. I'm always searching for inspiration, for support, and useful tools to help maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover all of that Together, we're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges that she never saw coming.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

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[Hoda Kotb]

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[Dakota]

My husband is currently on a vacation with his mistress and I'm confronting them.

[Sophia]

Tell me Sophia, how did she even catch them?

[Dakota]

One Amazon shopping receipt. He accidentally sent her a photo of the kids Christmas gifts with a delivery to another woman at the bottom.

[Sophia]

He exposed himself. That's a rookie move.

[Dakota]

Couples massages, monogrammed bathrobes and lingerie he Venmoed her for. So she spent four weeks gathering evidence and taped a 10 page letter inside his luggage.

[Sophia]

Before he flew out in his luggage, she came to play and the second

[Dakota]

he landed, he blocked her. So she called the hotel room directly and got the mistress on the phone.

[Sophia]

Oh, she got the mistress live on the phone. That is a bold move. Let's see if it pays off.

[Dakota]

Then it gets worse. He took the mistress on the Bahamas honeymoon trip he had planned with his wife. And then the mistress tagged him on Facebook outing the affair to her entire family.

[Sophia]

That's like a whole public confession.

[Dakota]

And spoiler. Two years later, karma hits him so hard he's calling his ex wife in tears saying about the mistress. What a mistake that was. To find out what happened, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

My first guest is Paris Hilton, Shakira,

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

I'm so excited on the bouncy bed. Do you have surprises?

[Holly Fry]

Many surprises.

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[Hoda Kotb]

What up?

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Hola amiga.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hola Amejo amiga.

[Hoda Kotb]

Hola hermana.

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

It's lemonade.

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[NBC News Announcer]

I'm Jake Brennan, and on the Disgraceland Podcast, I explore the wild lives of rock stars and unbelievable true crime stories from music history. These are the stories you haven't heard, the kind you'll end up telling someone else. Like the time Paul McCartney spent in one of the world's most notorious prisons. Imagine that you're Paul McCartney. It's 1980. You're an ex beetle, and you're doing time in one of Japan's worst prisons right there alongside Yakuza gangsters. And for a ridiculous charge or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga is accused of. Who is the artist Lady Gaga as being accused of doing the unthinkable to after allegedly stealing her music in style to become famous. And what about that time Blondie's Debbie Harry escaped a serial killer? The man who had given her that ride she barely escaped from was Ted Bundy. Listen to Disgraceland on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

This week on the show, we talked about a. A different Elizabeth Blackwell than we have already covered on the show. Yeah, so as I said briefly at the start of the show, I heard about this person at the Ashmolean Museum at an exhibition about plants that was in Oxford. I had made a little plan to go to Oxford from where we were staying, which was Birmingham, on the train. And then I realized that the takes an hour direct trip on the train that existed during the week did not in fact exist, exist on the weekend. Uh, oh, uh. And I then dithered a lot about whether I was actually gonna go to Oxford because the. The connecting train added just enough travel time that it was like, is this gonna feel too cramped for a day trip when I would like to be back in time for dinner, since I am here with Patrick and friends who are not going with me to Oxford.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like to be back in time to have dinner with them. And I finally decided that if I woke up early enough that I could take the earlier train and not feel cramped, that I would go. And that is what happened. I woke up incredibly early.

[Holly Fry]

Terrific.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And then I walked out of the hotel without my hat. And I am a person who really likes to have a hat on in the hot, bright, sunny weather. It had gotten a little cooler by that point, but I have delicate, fair skin, and so I want to have a hat on. And I had just left the hat behind because the room was dark when I left. And I didn't wanna wake Patrick up. Turning on the lights. And I didn't realize that it wasn't in my bag. So the first place that I went in Oxford was the Ashmolean Museum and this flower exhibition. And I felt it was a huge missed opportunity in the gift shop to not have floppy garden hats, because I would've paid any number of dollars at that point for a floppy garden. Aside from the lack of floppy garden hats in the gift shop, it was a really lovely and interesting exhibit. It talked about sort of how our understanding of plants has evolved over the centuries. Different art about plants, how, like, how the effort to collect and study plants has had environmental effects, how it's connected to colonialism. Some of the last pieces of the exhibition were works of art by contemporary artists that were really about that. They were about sort of the environmental toll that the effort to find and collect and breed plants has had. And how, in a lot of cases, like the efforts for Europeans or North Americans or whoever to get decorative plants for their gardens has robbed the indigenous people who originally cultivated and raised those plants of them. So it was all very interesting. And that was the first of, I think, five or six museums that I went to in one day.

[Holly Fry]

Fun.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I made a route for myself ahead of time so that I would go in a loop and not go way out of my way like I did in Stratford Upon Avon, and miss things because I was on the wrong side of town. Do you have a.

[Holly Fry]

I'm trying to figure out how to concoct this question, because for me, that is too many museums.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Because I'm like, I gotta linger. Yeah. Like, how do you bake in your linger time? Cause I gotta stand there and cry

[Holly Fry]

in front of art.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

That takes time. Right. So a couple of the museums that I went to were on the smaller side of museums. One of them was the Bodleian Library's Weston Library, which is the only place that's open to visit, I think the only one of their libraries that's open to visitors without a booked tour or an appointment or whatever. And I had not planned far enough ahead to do that. And so that is just two exhibitions on the first floor, not a whole full sized museum. I went to the History of Science Museum, which is also on the smaller side of museums. And then in the Ashmolean Museum, which I think was probably the biggest of the museums that I went to on that day. I had also just been to the British Museum. I had been to other museums that have a lot of very similar things in their collections. And so I really prioritized the galleries that were not things that I had just seen of that same era, that same location, whatever, in a different museum somewhere in England. A couple of days before. Gotcha.

[Holly Fry]

Did you say hi to the ghost of Mike at the British Museum?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Uh, I. I did not. I also didn't see there were things that I would have gone to at the British Museum had I been planning ahead. The British Museum is also where I really hit a wall in terms of how tired I was, how hungry I was, and how hot I was. And I was like, I need to sit down and eat food.

[Holly Fry]

Did you go to the cute cafe at the top?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It was full.

[Holly Fry]

Gotcha.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So we wound up down at the bottom. The Story Museum in Oxford was a beautiful surprise. I had planned to go to three different museums that had things from the Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials and the HBO adaptation. It turned out that one of the museums no longer had those things on exhibit, but one of the places that did was the Story Museum. And I was afraid when I went there that I might feel like a weirdo being at a children's museum without any children. Cause some children's museums, I feel, are great for adults, but some of them are geared in such a way that it's like everything is too small for an adult to look at. Does that make sense?

[Dakota]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

I don't know. I'm short. Maybe it doesn't work.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. I've gone to a lot of children's museums and science museums that are intended for children, but sometimes it's. It is like geared so much for almost a preschool level of engagement that I feel a little like I'm a lot out of place as an adult.

[Holly Fry]

Gotcha. Gotcha.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But this museum had interconnected through all of the exhibits things that really were geared toward adult readers who love children's literature. So it felt really welcoming to all ages. A lot of things there that were like, you know, child sized things where a child can listen to someone telling the story, but there's also taller ones where the adults are also included. And the last exhibit at the Story Museum was called the Story Arcade. And that was a whole exhibit about how storytelling has evolved in video games since video games were first created. And I got very emotional about it. It was beautiful. None of that has anything to do with Elizabeth Blackwell other than the fact that one of the museums I went to was the one that inspired this whole episode. So I said in the episode that we were going to read a paragraph from Bruce James in the Lives of Eminent Men Of Aberdeen. Oh, yeah, yeah. So it's as we discussed in the episode, Elizabeth Blackwell was not actually from Aberdeen. That was a misinformation that dated back to her lifetime. But she is the only woman in that book, Lives of Eminent Men of Aberdeen. So here is what he said about women writing books. Quote, this may be uncharitable, but it is not unnatural. For there is something offensive in a woman putting out a book except on some such subject as Mrs. Blackwell handled, or on dancing or cookery or anything of that kind, which women ought to know about and will be the more amiable for their knowledge. But when they go the length of writing sonnets, political economy, theories of morals, essays on population, systems of chemistry and theological discourses, it is perfectly unbearable. Learned and intellectual women have never been in great estimation with the more judicious of the other sex. Literary men are seldom agreeable companions, but literary ladies are generally allowed to be insufferable. What sort of husbands and fathers they are who allow their wives and daughters to write for the edification of the public. We do not take it upon us to say further than that they must have strange notions of what is attractive and amiable and becoming in the female sex, when they do not discourage their literary efforts by every means in their power and endeavor to keep them in that place in society where they will will be least known and most happy. This is not being cruel to genius. For the light of nature and the word of God and the moral constitution of women all combine to show that they are a people who were not sent into this world to shine by their own light, but to be helpmates to the other division of the human family. And the very first instance which the scripture records of a woman's advice being taken about the acquirement of knowledge was followed by the most disastrous consequences.

[Holly Fry]

I have a new use for the time machine, but it might not be what you anticipate. I just want to pop up in his house and go bless your heart and then vanish, like I said.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, so that's. There's just so much in that paragraph. And it is simultaneously like, to the modern ear, it's hilarious, but like, it's also the reality that women were living in and what men thought about women and their capabilities. And also he felt the need to have that whole entire thing in a write up of the only woman in his entire book. So I sort of hate him. And he is also the source of various of the misinformation. Not the source, but like a popularizer of the misinformation I do have to

[Holly Fry]

wonder, though, which is not to say that women were not going through living in a world where a lot of people held those beliefs. But it does seem like she had enough support of other men that he seems like an especially extreme blowhard on the matter.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. She did have a lot of scientific men and doctors and, you know, people in the Royal Society. Learned men.

[Holly Fry]

Learned men were totally fine with what she was doing.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Very ready to endorse her book. And then, I mean, we've talked about a lot of other women on the show who have published work from earlier centuries that, like, have had that kind of introduction by a man to add legitimacy to what they were doing.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah, that sounds like he's trying to hedge his bets so that other men don't get mad at him for putting a lady in their man book.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

As a side note, another one of the eminent men is Alexander Blackwell's brother, Thomas.

[Holly Fry]

Listen.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Which is funny to me.

[Holly Fry]

Listen. Judgment. A little screwy Louie there.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. So a couple of random things that I also had on the list to just mention. What is that? Janet Stiles Tyson, who corrected a lot of this information about Elizabeth Blackwell's life, according to an interview that I read with her, started on the history PhD that led to this when she was in her mix, her mid-60s. Right on. I will say, yeah, do it. If you are in your mid-60s that you want to start on a PhD, you have my 100% full support.

[Holly Fry]

Yes.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

You know, as someone at the age of 51 who was like, wonder what my later years will look like. I hope doing something awesome like deciding to go get a PhD. As another, just a random side note about the herbal is that we said plants all the way through the episode. It did include some things that people thought were plants at the time but are not classified as plants today, which include corals.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Fungi. And I am very curious about how many meanings of the word curious don't exist really today. Like, aren't. They're not used to. Curious is not used to mean a lot of things that it meant 300 years ago.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I did not go on a quest to see linguistically if there are reasons for how the meaning has evolved in that way. Also, something that cracked me up was that according to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, there is, quote, apparently no surviving copy of Alexander Blackwell's new method of improving cold, wet and clayey grounds. I put that into the search [e-mail] and it's there.

[Holly Fry]

Huh.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So I was not able to Trace. Like to figure out where exactly was this volume before archive.org scanned it, aside from the fact that it was on microfilm and was part of a big collection of microfilm that was scanned and uploaded to archive.org oh, so a physical

[Holly Fry]

copy might not have survived.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. And it's totally possible that whoever wrote that entry the last time it was updated, that there was no known copy anywhere because that, you know, microfilm was sitting somewhere unscanned. But I did find it funny.

[Holly Fry]

So I have a question.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Did you for any period of time

[Holly Fry]

consider calling it her curious herbal, since I know in England they say the

[Tracy V. Wilson]

H. I did not.

[Holly Fry]

Just curious. No.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

If I had thought about doing it, I probably would have remembered to do it once and then the remainder of the time said it the way I have said it my whole life.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. Just thinking of Eddie Izzard saying. Cause there's a bleeping H in it.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

There is an H in it. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I had a very good time on the trip to England. There are other forthcoming episodes that probably will be inspired by the trip to England.

[Holly Fry]

Hooray.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I emailed myself a number of things that were just the name of someone or something in the subject line and no other context. And then I also took a lot of pictures in museums, and when I got back to work, I had to kind of flip through them because I got to this point that, like, emailing myself from the museums, I got kind of tired of. So I would just take a picture of the, you know, the sign or the object or whatever.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And just flip through all of my pictures when I got home to take all that up. Whatever's happening on your weekend, I hope it's great. If you want to make yourself a day trip where you go to a bunch of museums or a bunch of bookstores. I did that this weekend. Or just a little adventure. I hope you have the greatest adventure. If your mind is on other things, if your time is required in other ways, I hope all of that goes as well as it possibly can. We'll be back with a brand new episode on Monday and tomorrow we'll have a Saturday classic. Stuff you missed in history class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Listen to your favorite shows. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.