Behind the Scenes Minis: The Apostrophe and the Rich Guy

Summary

Stuff You Missed in History Class: Behind the Scenes Minis – The Apostrophe and the Rich Guy
Release Date: June 5, 2026
Hosts: Tracy V. Wilson & Holly Frey

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Episode Overview

This behind-the-scenes minisode offers a candid, engaging discussion between hosts Tracy and Holly, unpacking listener questions and personal reflections about two recent main episode subjects: Viola Roseboro’ (the apostrophe in her name, research challenges, and her complicated character) and Robert Boyle (privilege, legacy, and the realities of historical science). The episode provides deep dives into the research process and character assessments, plus musings on literary legacies, historical context, and the impacts of wealth on scientific discovery.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Mystery of Viola Roseboro’ – Research and Character

• Apostrophe Curiosity

  • Tracy shares how the apostrophe at the end of Roseboro's name piqued her interest and led to the deep-dive episode.
    • “It was really that apostrophe that caught my attention at the end of her name that made me go, why is that spelled that way?” (03:02, Tracy)

• Challenges with Biographical Research

  • The principal source is a rare, 600+ page biography by Jane Kirkland Graham (possibly Jean Kirkland, Roseboro's friend), accessible in only about nine libraries nationwide.
  • The biography is both exhaustive and impractical, with no index or bibliography, making research difficult and time-consuming.
    • “That's a lot. And it is two volumes published under one cover...there are maybe nine copies of this book in any library anywhere in the United States.” (03:51–04:10, Tracy)
    • Notable review by Isabel Howell lauds Graham’s “cordial and generous acknowledgments” of library staff (07:05–07:21).

• Roseboro’s Contradictory Personality

  • Both hosts discuss her as a figure who delighted in reading and discovering new writers, but also someone with a reputation for being caustic, even mean.
    • “I feel like if I had known her, I would have loved and hated her.” (08:43, Tracy)
    • Holly is more forthright:
      “I think I would have just hated her. Is that terrible to say?” (08:45, Holly)
  • They ponder the ethics of being pointedly witty at others’ expense:
    • "If you’re being a jerk, I think you're a pretentious jerk. That's the nice word I can use." (09:16, Holly)
  • Despite her toughness, Roseboro was generous with friends, often gifting books—even during her own financial struggles.

• Roseboro’s Financial Situation

  • Tracy questions how Roseboro managed multiple residences in New York, suspecting she may have overextended herself financially, which impacted her well-being before the Great Depression.
    • "Did she actually have enough money...or was she really financially overextending herself and that is what contributed to the 1920s being so much harder for her?” (14:32, Tracy)

• Feminist Contradictions

  • Discussion about Roseboro’s desire for independence, yet apparent lack of investment in advancing opportunities for other women.
    • “She wanted to make her own way in the world, which I love, but not to put any of that effort towards ensuring other women could do the same.” (16:03, Holly)

2. The Question of Literary Legacies – Willa Cather’s Will

• Publishing Against the Dead’s Wishes
  • Holly inquires about the ethics of violating Willa Cather’s will, which restricted publication of her correspondence.
    • "It just made me feel icky... She literally said she did not want this.” (19:16, Holly)
  • Tracy explains that legally, after the executor’s death, the organization in charge of Cather’s estate decided on publication for the sake of history and scholarship.
  • Both hosts remain uneasy, debating literary and moral rights after death, and the tension between historical value and personal wishes.
    • “There have definitely been times that we have worked on episodes on the show where like there's a question of would this person want these details right out there.” (21:03, Tracy)

3. Robert Boyle: Privilege, Science, and Historical Narratives

• Lismore Castle: Wealth on Display

  • Holly reveals that Boyle’s birthplace, Lismore Castle, can now be rented for private events—if you can afford it!
    • "If I just stumbled into a radonkadoodle sum of money... I'd be on that website getting quotes.” (25:14, Holly)

• Boyle’s Writing Style & Third Person Autobiography

  • The hosts laugh about Boyle’s awkward third-person autobiography and how using third-person allowed him to praise himself.
    • “This is why you wrote this in the third person, my dude. Because in not saying it about himself, he can praise himself.” (26:51, Holly)
  • Both agree that Boyle’s writing is clunky and hard to parse by modern standards.
    • “All the things I had to read that were quotations of his work were read through repeatedly by me to try to make sure I understood what he was saying.” (27:22, Tracy)

• Privilege in Scientific Discovery

  • The hosts spotlight how Boyle’s achievements were possible due to immense wealth and social connections, raising broader questions about who gets credit in scientific history.
    • “Everything he was able to achieve was a direct result of that privilege...He was a wealthy dude who got to do wealthy dude stuff and then met other wealthy dudes and they wealthy duded together.” (29:16–30:43, Holly)
  • Tracy notes the broader pattern of privileged “gentleman scientists,” and the often-hidden support and labor of women in their families.

• Boyle’s Religious Zeal

  • Holly discusses the contradiction in Boyle being a scientific innovator yet rigidly judgmental about religion:
    • “He was so hell bent on the idea that everyone that was not Christian was doing it wrong. Which is such a weird mindset for someone who is kind of trying to bumble their way through understanding the world more deeply.” (34:01, Holly)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “It was really that apostrophe that caught my attention at the end of her name...” (03:02, Tracy)
• "That's a lot. And it is two volumes published under one cover..." (03:51, Tracy)
• “Her cordial and generous acknowledgments...ought to be an encouragement to all librarians.” (07:13, Quote via Isabel Howell)
• “If you’re being a jerk, I think you're a pretentious jerk. That's the nice word I can use.” (09:16, Holly)
• "Did she actually have enough money...or was she really financially overextending herself..." (14:32, Tracy)
• “She wanted to make her own way...but not to put any of that effort towards ensuring other women could do the same.” (16:03, Holly)
• “It just made me feel icky... She literally said she did not want this.” (19:16, Holly)
• “If I just stumbled into a radonkadoodle sum of money... I'd be on that website getting quotes.” (25:14, Holly)
• "This is why you wrote this in the third person, my dude...he can praise himself.” (26:51, Holly)
• “He was a wealthy dude who got to do wealthy dude stuff and then met other wealthy dudes and they wealthy duded together.” (30:43, Holly)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:56 — Viola Roseboro’: initial research and challenges
• 06:22 — Speculations about Jane Kirkland Graham’s identity and biography
• 08:43 — Hosts discuss Roseboro’s complicated personality and social approach
• 14:32 — Financial realities of Roseboro’s New York life
• 16:03 — Gender, independence, and contradictory politics
• 17:28 — Willa Cather’s will and literary legacy
• 24:49 — Beginning of Robert Boyle discussion: Lismore Castle
• 26:11 — Boyle’s third-person autobiography and writing quirks
• 29:03 — Deep discussion on privilege and “gentleman scientists”
• 34:01 — Boyle’s religion vs. scientific mindset

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Tone, Language & Atmosphere

Tracy and Holly speak in a personable, informal style, laced with dry humor, candor, and friendly banter. They are self-deprecating about research hurdles and offer honest commentary—even where it challenges the reputations of their subjects. The tone is both scholarly and conversational, making complex historical and ethical issues accessible and relatable.

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For New Listeners

If you missed the main episodes about Viola Roseboro’ or Robert Boyle, this mini offers valuable recaps and extra context, alongside the hosts’ uncensored reactions and reflections. It’s an exploration of weird biography logistics, character studies, and larger questions about legacy, privilege, and the messiness of history.

Transcript

[Tracy V. Wilson]

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[Holly Frey]

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[Holly Frey]

Welcome to stuff you missed in history class, a production of iHeartradio.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

[Holly Frey]

And I'm Holly Fry.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And this week on the show, we talked about Viola Roseborough.

[Holly Frey]

Oh, yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It was really that apostrophe that caught my attention at the end of her name that made me go, why is that spelled that way?

[Holly Frey]

Viola, what are you doing?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I had one specific difficulty with research for this, which is that as we alluded to, there is one book length biography that I know of of her.

[Holly Frey]

Oh, yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

1. It is by Jane Kirkland Graham, someone I could find no information about other than the fact that she wrote this biography of Viola Rosebrough. It was published in 1955. It is more than 600 pages long.

[Holly Frey]

Whoa. That's a minutiae biography.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

That's a lot. And it is two volumes published under one cover. So sometimes I can find. When there are obscure books like this, I do have access to a lot of different libraries. And sometimes when there's something pretty obscure, I can find it in one of those libraries. That was not the case this time. There are maybe nine copies of this book in any library anywhere in the United States. It's possible that some of them can be sent through interlibrary loan. But like an extremely rare book that was published in 1955. Maybe not. Also, 600 pages is like really long for our show. Like, that's. Yeah. That's not really an amount of time that we can devote to one subject.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah. Unless you're just like doing nothing else with your week, and I mean nothing else.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Absolutely nothing. Or if it's gonna become a two part episode that could potentially work. So I guess I lied a little bit. I could also, in addition to Jane Kirkland Graham having written this book, I also did find out that she lived in Bamberg, South Carolina and was a schoolteacher. That was it. So what I wound up doing was I read every review that I could find of this book and there are a number of reviews of it that were published in like, literary journal.

[Holly Frey]

Okay.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And the Reviewers, the. The same kinds of words showed up in a lot of the reviews. Words like unusual and unorthodox. Because apparently, as Holly guessed from the fact that it was more than 600 pages long, it does get into the minutiae of things. Apparently. There's a lot of discussion of where individual facts came from.

[Holly Frey]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Who said what? Some of the chapters of the book apparently have extensive citations, basically throughout the text, but there's no index and there's no formal bibliography, which the reviewers all found made it very hard to, like, refind information.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like, they. There was no index to refer back to. If they were, like, where was the part that she was talking about that time she was in Rhode Island. Who could say? It's some there?

[Holly Frey]

So she needed Viola Roseborough to edit that biz, maybe.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So it's possible that Jane Kirkland Graham was really Jean Kirkland, who was one of Roseborough's correspondents, friends with Roseburrow, friends with some of Roseborough's friends, decided to write a biography of her after her death, but it's not totally clear. One of the reviewers, named Scott C. Osborne, pointed out the many flaws in this biography, but also called it, quote, prodigious research obviously performed with love. So all of that, I was like, I could see if I can get this through interlibrary alone, which would mean delaying when I could work on this episode. I would have to wait for the book to arrive. But after having read the same consistent criticisms of the biography, I was like, I feel like this biography is just gonna make it harder.

[Holly Frey]

Right. It's gonna drag down the research process.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. I would've filled in some of the gaps that I do have about her, but it would have added so much to the research process just to get through it. I did really love one particular thing that was said by Isabel Howell in the Tennessee Historical Quarterly in their review of this book, which was, quote, her cordial and generous acknowledgments of indebtedness to the Vanderbilt and Tennessee State Library staffs ought to be an encouragement to all librarians. So I guess Jane Kirkland Graham was full of thanks and praise for the librarians who helped her with the prodigious research obviously performed with love. Viola Roseboro was also featured in that Southern Women in New York article that we talked about in the Elizabeth Bisland episode.

[Holly Frey]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

She did have a similar trajectory. That was one of the reasons why I did not immediately jump into figuring out more about her. After Elizabeth Bisland, I was like, this does seem like it's gonna have some of the same moments of, you know, person who grew up elsewhere, moving to New York, trying to make a living as a writer. So let's wait just a couple months before we get into it. I feel like if I had known her, I would have loved and hated her.

[Holly Frey]

I think I would have just hated her. Is that terrible to say?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

No.

[Holly Frey]

There's a specific personality that she seems to fit the bill of, that I've encountered many times in my life. And people go, you will love this person, because I am a chatty person and I like to chitter chatter. But I don't like people. I mean, when I was younger, yes, but as I have gotten older and more mature, I do not like people who are mean for sport.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay?

[Holly Frey]

I don't care how witty you are. If you're being a jerk, I think you're a pretentious jerk. That's the nice word I can use. There are much, much more salty words bubbling in my esophagus right now. I just. I don't. I don't care that you're a hoot. I think you're a jerk at the end of the day. Like, her whole, like, ugh.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I hate that.

[Holly Frey]

I can't just insult people. I'm like, I'm out.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I'm out like a trout. You're done. You're done.

[Holly Frey]

You're done swimming away from this one.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. I was reminded of Steel Magnolias and if you don't have anything nice to say, come sit by me.

[Holly Frey]

Which is also attributed, as we've discussed on the show before, to Alice Roosevelt.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I forgot that.

[Holly Frey]

Which is an interesting connection point. Yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, I love a little gossip. I love calling it like it is. But I also just think if you are going into conversations because you want to be mean, there's also that thing where she's like, I take control of it. And I'm like, I'm out. That's a. That's a bossy person. I don't. I don't mind if you are a person that dominates conversations as long as you're a delight. But if you're just kind of being bossy because you think you're better than everybody else, then you're done. I'm sorry, Viola, I don't think we can hang. Wouldn't it be great to never buy gas again? EVs are as easy to charge as your phone, and they are a perfect addition to your everyday life. Most people are only driving about 40 miles a day and most EVs can handle 200 to 400 miles of range on a charge. And there are hundreds of EV models available today, so there's something perfect for every lifestyle and budget. I drive an ev. I've had it for a couple of years. It's my favorite car I've ever owned. It is so fun to drive. The pickup is incredible. It's super agile and it is easy to maintain. The way forward is electric.

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

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[Holly Frey]

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

The things I love the about her are how much she loved reading, how much she really seems to have found joy in finding interesting new work in the mailbag at the magazine. Yeah. How much she really seems to have never lost sight of the fact that that's an incredibly cool job to have. If that's something that you find joy in. I think it's easy for everybody in every job, no matter how cool it is, to eventually kind of fall into a mundane rut with it. And it doesn't seem like she ever did that. It seems like she always was like, all right, I get to go to work and I get to find some amazing new story in this mailbag full of stories, and then I get to help that writer get more well known in the world. And I think she really loved that and put her heart into it for as long as she was doing it. The fact that somehow she was at least briefly able to afford an apartment in New York and multiple cottages. That's the thing I'm curious about. Did she actually have enough money to do that, or was she really financially overextending herself and that is what contributed to the 1920s being so much harder for her? I had initially, before I quite realized the timeline, I had attributed that more to the Great Depression.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But a lot like the height of the Great Depression was after she was having a lot of those struggles that

[Holly Frey]

struck me while we were talking through this and like, ooh, she hit the down ramp before the Depression even hit. That had to have been a rough, rough time.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. So I like that she liked to make her own way. That I, similarly to you, don't necessarily like that she enjoyed being mean or insulting.

[Holly Frey]

I just, you know, that's always that thing where it's like, okay, what is that person getting out of it? Like, why do you want to. Why is that a thing you prize?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

And it's usually doesn't take you to a good place.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That seems to have, I think, been one of the con. The contradictions about her. Because people also talked about how she was really generous with her friends. And even when she didn't have any money, she was always scraping something together to try to buy little treats for people and especially books. Like, if somebody came to visit her, they always left with a book. But then sometimes she could be very blunt in her criticisms of people, sometimes beyond what's really necessary.

[Holly Frey]

The other thing, too, is that she wanted to make her own way in the world, which I love, but not to put any of that effort towards ensuring other women could do the same.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Sure, sure. And I'm like, girl, yeah, yeah, yeah. The contradictions in how she was living her life and what she thought politically. I Wonder if that 600 and something page biography sheds any light on that.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like where that was coming from. Was it like, I got mine and I don't need to worry about anybody else, or was there something else going on there? Don't know. Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

I don't. It's really hard to. Is that her form of rebellion because she grew up with hippie parents? Is it? You know what I mean? Like, sure. Trying to parse that file is a little tricky.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, Maybe someday. Because I think there are various services. Is not even the right word. Sort of print on demand situations that will print rare out of print books on demand. Right. And I think one of those does have this biography. So I also could have spent money and waited a long time to get it.

[Holly Frey]

So maybe I also have a question for you.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay.

[Holly Frey]

Cause I'm curious what your take is on Willa Cather's will.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay.

[Holly Frey]

And it being disregarded after.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay. So here is my understanding of this situation. And I'm gonna say I did not. I got to a point where I felt like I had a satisfactory answer, but I do not know. I cannot promise. This is like the whole story. So Willa Cather's will said none of my correspondence published in whole or in part.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And then also there was an executor who all of that was tied to. And that executor eventually died. And at that point, everything that the will had specified to go through the executor, all of that expired. And the setup that had been established to maintain her literary legacy dissolved with the expiration of all of that. So then a new, basically, executor, like the will, is over, but like, a new organization had to be sort of developed to maintain the Willa Cather legacy.

[Holly Frey]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And that organization ultimately decided that it was of importance to history and literature and study of Willa Cather to be able to publish that correspondence. And also I think she had specified in her will not to have any adaptations of her work. And so I think they may have revisited that also. So my understanding is that all of this was within the bounds of what was legal, within the terms of her will.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah, it just made me feel icky.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I get it.

[Holly Frey]

Like, she literally said she did not want this.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

She Said forever and you went. As far as I know she said forever.

[Holly Frey]

Okay. But it's later now and legally we can. So where'd you get. Where did you get?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Well and I don't know if the details of the will were. Do not ever publish this until after the death of this person got you with the executor or if it was. Do not ever publish this ever. Ever.

[Holly Frey]

I mean, I don't. Yeah, I don't know.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, I don't either. And I. I don't really feel like doing an episode on Willa Cather to figure it out more.

[Holly Frey]

As we said during recording. I'm not that. Not really a fan of her work.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. And I'm also like I'm not a lawyer and that what I. Everything I just said was sort of my understanding based on having to try to figure out like wait a minute, this thing that here says that she said for her letters never to be published. But I read some of her letters while researching this episode. What's going on. So. Yeah, I don't for sure know either.

[Holly Frey]

I mean I'm going through the like logic flow. Right. Of like. Well, she did try to get her letters back from people.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Uh huh.

[Holly Frey]

So she didn't want them out there. But maybe that's cause she wanted to control it with a weird clause in her will. I don't know.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Read her will. And it's possibly it's possible that we will get an email either from a lawyer or someone who knows a lot more about Willa Cather who can give a fuller explanation than my layperson. Not a lawyer who looked just enough to figure out if she said no. Why is this on the Internet?

[Holly Frey]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Fascinating.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. I kind of like not necessarily with Willa Cather because again no plans to do a Willa Cather episode. But there have definitely been times that we have worked on episodes on the show where like there's a question of would this person want these details right out there. And sometimes there's sort of a question of like the historical interest about something.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

What is the importance of understanding this versus like what is the harm to this person or their legacy or what they would have wanted. And sometimes those things are complicated.

[Holly Frey]

Yes. Because often too they involve other people.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Which makes it layers and layers of trying to figure out what path feels the right. Feels like the right one.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

Anyway, history, you complicated thing.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Wouldn't it be great to never buy gas again? EVs are as easy to charge as your phone and they are a perfect addition to your everyday life. Most people are only driving about 40 miles a day, and most EVs can handle 200 to 400 miles of range on a charge. And there are hundreds of EV models available today, so there's something perfect for every lifestyle and budget. I drive an ev. I've had it for a couple of years. It's my favorite car I've ever owned. It is so fun to drive. The pickup is incredible. It's super agile and it is easy to maintain. The way forward is electric.

[George Taveras]

Learn [e-mail] this is George Taveras and Sam Taggart from Stratiolab. Okay, picture your apartment after a Saturday workout. The gym bag, the couch, maybe even the car. Mi amor. It's a full novella of odors and not the glamorous kind.

[Sam Taggart]

That's where Febreze comes in. Boost, spray, spritz, plug or clip. It doesn't just mask odors, it fights them. Honey.

[George Taveras]

Want long lasting scent you can control? Try Febreze Plug Scent Booster today. With the adjustable intensity dial, you can control the scent to match your mood. Plus, thanks to its Fade Defy technology, your home stays first day fresh for up to 50 days.

[Sam Taggart]

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[George Taveras]

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[Sam Taggart]

Febreze is a proud sponsor of the Elton John Impact Awards, honoring those who have helped shape a more inclusive and compassionate world with their artistry, advocacy and unwavering commitment to equality.

[George Taveras]

You won't want to miss the Elton John Impact awards podcast, available June 1 on the Diehard radio app. And everywhere podcasts are heard, I turned off news altogether.

[Holly Frey]

I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything. It's the rage bait.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Holly Frey]

We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News Reporting for America.

[BritBox Announcer]

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[Holly Frey]

Okay, I have several things I want to discuss about Robert Boyle.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Great.

[Holly Frey]

The first is now a personal bucket list item. Sort of.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Uh huh.

[Holly Frey]

Lismore Castle.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Where he was born is available for booking. Oh, you can book out the whole property. I don't know how much it is. They won't say so on their website. So you know, it's a lot.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It's a lot. That means a lot.

[Holly Frey]

Come on, lottery win. We're all going to this war Castle. Like if it were to happen, if I just stumbled into a radonkadoodle sum of money.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Uh huh.

[Holly Frey]

I'd be on that website getting quotes.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

It's beautiful. And it's obviously been renovated and kept up and it's now like an event space. They'll rent it out for special events, but you can also just rent out the property to stay for a weekend with your friends or whatever. Imagine the cool party you could have there. Yeah, it's gorgeous. I think it is also I don't have their website up in front of me, but I think it is also like a property you can just go visit for the day. Like a park area and green spaces that you can look at. And also architecture that's obviously in interesting but so pretty nice. And I like that it's been there since the 12th century. Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. The next thing I want to talk about is that third person autobiography.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

A lot of discussion of it calls it a fictionalized autobiography and it might be, it doesn't seem super embellished to me. I didn't live his life obviously, I don't know. But like the details of like his birth, his family upbringing, where they were all very, very identical to his actual life. And then I came across a portion of it where he was introducing a letter he had written to his sister, I believe. And I was like, this is why you wrote this in the third person, my dude. Because in not saying it about himself, he can praise himself.

[George Taveras]

Oh.

[Holly Frey]

Because he's introducing this letter and he's like, you know, essentially like, you'll see what a good writer this. They're amazing. And I'm just like, I see what you did here. I see, I'm on to you, Robert Boyle. It made me laugh so hard. But also because when you read his letters, they're so clunky.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

I'm sure in the time he was giving himself points for verbosity, but in terms of clarity.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, no, yeah. When I was reading through the outline, all the things I had to read that were quotations of his work were read through repeatedly by me to try to make sure I understood what he was saying.

[Holly Frey]

They're clunky, but again, that also, I mean, that becomes an interesting, like, discussion point of the ways that different things have been valued in writing and intellectual communication and correspondence over the centuries. Right. To him it was, I know a lot of big words and I can string them together. Whereas I think today we'd be like.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[Holly Frey]

Clarity in scientific writing. In particular, clarity in all things.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Well. And we read clunky stuff in the heartlib episode too, didn't we?

[Holly Frey]

Yes.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Am I remembering that right?

[Holly Frey]

Yeah, it was a clunky time. They were all clunky writing each other. So, you know, if you believe that adage that you're the average of the five people you're closest to, they're all just writing that same style. It just is a feedback loop. A self replicating feedback loop. Yeah. But that third person did crack me up. But then when he did the Skeptical Chemist, and he chose to do that as a fictional dialogue, there was also part of me that's like, maybe he just likes to mix it up. Like, he doesn't like the directness of an actual scientific essay or a scientific writing style.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Well, and there are other things that were written as dialogues.

[Holly Frey]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So it's like he didn't make that all up.

[Holly Frey]

But no, no, no, no, no.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It's interesting that he chose it for that particular thing.

[Holly Frey]

It did make me chuckle.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

Okay. The big thing I want to talk about.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yes.

[Holly Frey]

Is wealth and wealth inequality.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay.

[Holly Frey]

Because listen, Robert Boyle was a man born to incredible privilege.

[Jana Kramer]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

And if you really look at his whole life, everything he was able to achieve was a direct result of that privilege. Right. He inherited a big empty castle that he could go stay at.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

A castle. Or in any case, a big place where he could go stay and do experiments because he didn't have to work and he didn't have anything else going on. Not many people have that, ever. And then, you know, even when he was like, at Oxford, he, you know, he fell in with a lot of great thinkers in part because the work he did in his big empty home opened the door for him to have, you know, intellectual discourse with other people that did experiments, which then brought him into their circle at Oxford and then at London and Even in his later years, when he's living with his sister Catherine, they are living in a very fancy part of town. They were on Pall Mall, which, you know, was where all of the wealthy people lived. And he was able to afford to set up a whole lab of his own that was not part of his Oxford setup. So it is one of those things that especially kept jumping out to me. And I don't know if I'm just being hypercritical of poor Robert Boyle, but he gets held up as the first modern chemist. But he didn't really invent or discover a whole lot.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right.

[Holly Frey]

He just spent a lot of money in his lab doing things, which is cool. And it does, again, foster that idea of exploration and experimentation among his peers. But I'm also like, the one thing that you're really well known for was kind of an accident. And I mean, I shouldn't boil it down to that. He was doing a very clearly laid out experiment and observing the results. But I feel like a lot of his place in the history of science is because he was a wealthy dude who got to do wealthy dude stuff and then met other wealthy dudes and they wealthy duded together.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, well, we had the whole era of like the gentleman science scientist gentleman. Like some of that was a bit later than Robert Boyle. Like more into the 18th and 19th centuries. Prior to as much formalization of and professionalization of like the educational system and the idea of what a chemist is. Yeah, but yeah, I think about that too. And I also think about how many of them also had a sister or a daughter or a wife who was doing a lot of record keeping or note taking or whatever.

[Holly Frey]

Well, and Catherine is actually on my list because she had her hands in a lot of pies in the best way of like supporting financially, just supporting through encouragement a lot of people that were doing a lot of science and other things. She is a pretty interesting figure and really pretty pivotal in that surge of discovery at the time. But yeah, it makes you start to look at all of the people that I shouldn't say all. Many of the people that are lauded as great pioneers in their field were able to be that because in many cases there was general wealth in the mix. Now, there is an interesting flip on this though, because then I think about less than a hundred years earlier, Thomas Harriot and Galileo were both looking at the moon through a telescope at the same time. Oh, sure. But because Thomas Harriot had tons of money, he didn't publish anything. Cause he didn't need to Whereas Galileo was like, I've done. Look at the thing I looked at.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I know what the moon looks like, you guys.

[Holly Frey]

Somebody pay me. So there's a flip on that one. But it's just, I'm fascinated by the way that wealth plays into the stories that we tell about discovery, pioneering in scientific fields, et cetera, when there are so many other people who were probably working as hard or harder, possibly even in the same fields, but maybe even not in, you know, some other job that don't ever get recognized. Anyway, that's. I gotta be in my bonnet today about this. I don't know what's up with that. It's, it's an. It's a voting day. So maybe it's just.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Maybe that's it.

[Holly Frey]

Anyway, Robert Boyle, I find him fascinating.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I didn't know anything about the, like, religious elements of his work at all.

[Holly Frey]

Oh, yeah, it is weird. Cause he was, he was so hell bent on the idea that everyone that was not Christian was doing it wrong. Which is such a weird mindset for someone who is kind of trying to bumble their way through understanding the world more deeply. Like, you know, you don't know everything because you're trying to learn things, but also you think you know everything.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Frey]

What's going on, Rob? Anyway, Robert Boyle, fascinating person, very important in history, but also, you gotta look at the context. Yeah. May we all have the good fortune to get a ton of money and do experiments and putter in the way we desire. If this is your weekend coming up, I hope you have whatever financing you would need in place to do something cool. Maybe experimental, but in a safe way. But also, I just hope, like, you have peace, you have some rest and relaxation and time to just think about whatever you would like and putter if you want. I love a good putter. Oh, I love it so much. If you don't have time off this weekend, I hope that you still get some puttering in. I'm going to putter around in my sewing room after we're done. Done recording. Will I do anything of value? I don't know, but I'm gonna putter. I hope though that if you are working that you have as smooth a time as possible in those endeavors. And I hope that everyone is kind to one another and we all take care of each other. We will be back here on Monday with a brand new episode. We will also have a classic episode for you tomorrow.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Holly Frey]

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

I love eggs. I turn to them all the time as a quick and easy way to start a meal. And Vital Farms eggs are brought to you by hens that have access to fre and sunshine and you can actually look up on the carton and see the farm that those eggs came from. Vital Farms is also a certified bee corporation with a purpose to improve the lives of people, animals and the planet through food. Look for the black egg carton in the egg aisle and visit vitalfarms.com to learn more. Vital Farms Good Eggs no shortcuts she

[BritBox Announcer]

was the sister who went unnoticed. A daffodil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own there is much to be admired. Now her greatest chapter is yet to come. The most important thing is to be yourself. From the world of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice comes a new Brit Box original drama Mary, you Will Flourish, based on the best selling novel the Other Bennet Sister, now streaming only on BritBox. Watch for the free trial at BritBox.com

[Dr. Joy]

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

This is an iHeart podcast, guaranteed human.