Behind the Scenes Minis: Unexpected Information

Summary

Stuff You Missed in History Class – Behind the Scenes Minis: Unexpected Information

Hosts: Holly Frey & Tracy V. Wilson
Original Air Date: June 19, 2026
Podcast Network: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

In this behind-the-scenes mini-episode, Holly and Tracy dive deeper into this week’s main topics, reflecting on the research and surprising directions of two recent historical subjects: Casimir Pulaski and Rebecca Smith Pollard. The conversation explores the challenges and frustrations of untangling historical evidence, TV documentary narratives, and the sometimes-messy legacies of historical figures. In their candid and conversational style, the hosts also share personal stories and reflect on the quirks of historical pedagogy and changing social values.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Casimir Pulaski Episode: Forensic Mysteries and Historical Pride

[03:08 – 13:16]

• Pulaski's Bones and the Smithsonian TV Documentary:

  • Tracy discusses her research into claims that Casimir Pulaski, the famed Revolutionary War officer, may have been intersex, a theory brought to popular attention through a Smithsonian Channel documentary.
    • “I feel like people are gonna come at me. I just don't think those are his bones from the monument.” – Tracy [04:09]
    • Holly agrees: “I don't either.” [04:10]
  • Tracy expresses frustration with the documentary’s narrative style, which mainly built anticipation around DNA results but offered little scientific clarity:
    • “A lot of the episode is more about building a case that this person could have been intersex…comparing portraits…to a medical illustration…that’s not really proving anything.” – Tracy [05:52]
    • Holly notes, “You only wanted a half hour show of DNA results.” [06:59]
    • Tracy wished for a transcript over sitting through the entire show.

• Maternal Line DNA Evidence:

  • The show’s mitochondrial DNA test was meant as the capstone “big reveal” but left Tracy dissatisfied.
  • Holly comments on this common documentary narrative structure: “They need to make it such that by the time you land the plane there, the audience can accept that information.” [07:48]

• Polish-American Legacy & Pronunciation Bias:

  • Tracy remarks on why Pulaski is a more prominent figure than Tadeusz Kościuszko, despite the latter’s greater historical influence:
    • “He probably didn't get as much attention because his name is a lot harder for English speakers to say.” [11:39]
    • Holly: “Oh, right.” [11:37]
  • The hosts touch on Pulaski’s notorious reputation as “a pill” — arrogant and quarrelsome, yet emblematic of Polish-American pride.

• European Officers in the American Revolution:

  • The tension between professional European officers and American militias arose from differing training backgrounds:
    • “You had officers coming over from a tradition of…discipline in a standing army to…volunteer militia members doing their best.” – Tracy [13:54]

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2. Rebecca Smith Pollard: Literacy, Pedagogy, and Complicated Legacies

[16:46 – 33:16]

• Surprise Racism and Anti-Tom Novels:

  • Tracy references learning of Pollard’s association with “anti-Tom” novels (responding to Uncle Tom’s Cabin with pro-slavery/Unionist literature), reminiscent of past situations when unexpected racism emerged in subjects they’d selected for the show.
    • “I would not have chosen for a live show topic had I known ahead of time that that was going to happen.” – Tracy [16:58]
  • They emphasize their aim for sensitivity even when covering troubling topics.

• Personal Childhood Reading Memories:

  • The hosts shift to lighthearted personal anecdotes about learning to read—self-motivated early literacy and “being a shrew” in school:
    • “I sat down and read her ‘There's a Monster at the End of This Book’…[My mom said] ‘I think you have that book memorized.’” – Tracy [18:25]
    • Holly: “Do you think I’m stupid?” (recalling a childhood retort) [19:46]
  • Both reminisced on reading ahead in class and mastering literacy independently.

• Pollard’s Literacy Teaching Methods:

  • Tracy confesses that Rebecca Smith Pollard’s dense, phoneme-focused method sounds tedious but recognizes its effectiveness:
    • “The level of granularity in all of the different phonemes does sound to me kind of tedious…the fact that it was called busy work, I was like, yeah, this does sound like busy work to me.” – Tracy [22:40]
    • Holly argues the method, though repetitive, likely created “a level of mastery…so far ahead of anybody else in their age group.” [23:06]

• Diversity and Evolution in Reading Instruction:

  • The hosts agree that there isn’t one right way to teach reading and that different children benefit from different methods.
    • “I don't think there's one way of teaching that works for everybody.” – Tracy [21:13]

• Historical Reflections on Rote Memorization:

  • Tracy shares a recent visit to Shakespeare’s schoolroom in Stratford-upon-Avon, noting educational traditions of memorizing while facing classmates.

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3. On Pollard’s Paradoxes: Anti-Abolitionist, Pro-Union, and Growing Pains

[27:22 – 33:16]

• Literary Sapphism & Editorial Anxiety:

  • Tracy mentions the distinctly sapphic tone of a “trist poem” Pollard exchanged with another woman, and the contemporary editor’s “gallantry” note to reassure propriety:
    • “Our gallantry is shocked at the thought of the spirits of two charming young menstrual girls wandering about at midnight by themselves in this bad world without a protector.” – Quoted by Tracy [28:03]

• Unionist Yet Anti-Abolitionist Contradiction:

  • Both wrestle with Pollard’s stance as both pro-Union and anti-abolition. Holly hypothesizes that young, clever women like Pollard absorbed complicated opinions without full context:
    • “I feel like she might have been a case of one of those people…who is a very clever person, probably got told as much a lot growing up…She hears new information, digests it, has ideas about it, and…people encourage her to voice those ideas without necessarily really talking through what it all means.” – Holly [29:29]
  • Tracy: “I can definitely say I held some opinions in my teens and early twenties that were bad.” [30:57]
  • Both acknowledge that minds and opinions evolve with exposure to new information.

• Pollard’s Commitment to Teaching:

  • Despite her complexity, Tracy praises Pollard’s efforts to systematize reading instruction with genuine care for children and teachers alike.
    • “She put together this instructional method that was very motivated by what she thought actually helped children learn and also making sure teachers had what they needed.” – Tracy [32:40]
  • Holly reaffirms: “Terrific.” [33:05]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On documentary narrative frustrations:

  • “I just don't think those are his bones from the monument.” – Tracy [04:09]
  • “You only wanted a half hour show of DNA results.” – Holly [06:59]
  • “I wish I hadn't had to spend an hour of my life on that.” – Tracy [08:41]

• Self-aware humor:

  • “He probably didn't get as much attention because his name is a lot harder for English speakers to say.” – Tracy [11:39]
  • “You're doing it wrong: The Casimir Pulaski Story.” – Holly [12:10]

• On literacy memories:

  • “Do you think I’m stupid?” – Holly, recalling her own precocity [19:46]

• On educational busywork:

  • “This does sound like busy work to me.” – Tracy [22:40]
  • “Sometimes that stuff that feels like busy work is really like drilling things in a way that you will never, ever in your life forget it.” – Holly [23:06]

• Wrestling with historical complexity:

  • “She had just enough information to be dangerous. I’m telling you. Yeah, I believe it in my soul.” – Holly [32:33]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:08 – Start of Pulaski segment (bones, TV show frustrations)
• 06:59 – Frustration at documentary narrative style
• 08:41 – Research burnout and streaming service irony
• 11:37 – Polish names and historical prominence
• 13:54 – Cultural clash between European officers and American militias
• 16:46 – Pollard and unexpected anti-Tom content
• 18:19–21:12 – Childhood reading anecdotes; learning to read
• 22:40–23:21 – Pollard’s method, “busy work,” and rote learning
• 27:22 – Sapphic poetry and newspaper editorial notes
• 29:29 – Unpacking Pollard’s contradictory stances and youthful opinions
• 32:40 – Pollard’s legacy as a teacher and systematizer

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Final Thoughts

The episode is rich in the warm, curious tone of Holly and Tracy’s exchanges, balancing dedication to historical accuracy with honest, sometimes humorous, reflections on the challenges of reading the past—both in terms of people and evidence. The behind-the-scenes look offers listeners a candid glimpse of the research process, the frustrations of historical ambiguity, and the ways in which personal experiences inform how we understand history.

This summary covers all the key topics, provides context for both novice listeners and show regulars, and maintains the spirit and language of the original conversation.

Transcript

[Tracy V. Wilson]

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[Holly Fry]

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[Holly Fry]

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[Holly Fry]

to Stuff you missed in History Class, a production of iHeart.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

We talked about Kazimier Pulaski this week, whose name in Polish. Even with practicing, I feel like I said very badly the one time that I tried to say it. I wow. So, as I said at the top of the episode, he wound up on my shortlist. Back in 2019, when that Smithsonian Channel episode was happening. I did not watch the episode at that time. So mostly what I had to go on was, like, the stuff that came out from the Smithsonian Channel, writing about it, news, reporting about the thing. And I was really intrigued by the idea that this person who had fought, you know, been an officer in the Revolutionary War, may have been intersex. But then doing the actual research into this episode, looking into it a lot farther, I feel like people are gonna come at me. I just don't think those are his bones from the monument.

[Holly Fry]

I don't either.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So while I appreciated the opportunity to talk again about how there have always been always, all through history, all over the world, always people whose lives and whose bodies just don't line up with the place and time that they're living in terms of the sex and gender expectations, I just. I don't think those are his bones. Um, I said in the episode that I watched this Smithsonian Channel thing on the very last day of research, and the reason that it was on the very last day of research was that, like, in doing all of the reading, I was like, I don't think those are his bones. What did they actually say on this TV show about the DNA research? And it was mitochondrial DNA research, which is passed through the maternal line. And I couldn't find clarity on exactly what was said. There was just a lot of vagueness in the various writing about this TV show and the research that led into it. And so I was like, well, I guess I'm gonna have to get Paramount to watch this thing, because that was the place where it was available. And I watched it, and I had a lot of frustrations because a lot of the episode is not really about, like, the DNA research is kind of the big capstone at the end. And the announcement of, yes, there's A match. That's just the big reveal at the end of the episode. But a lot of the episode is more about building a case that this person could have been intersex.

[Holly Fry]

Gotcha.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And so they kept doing things like comparing portraits of Casimir Pulaski to a medical illustration illustrating someone who had congenital adrenal hyperplasia. And I was like, okay, that doesn't really have anything to do with whose bones these are or whether that was Casimir Pulaski or whether, like, you're seeing a similarity between, like, an 18th century or maybe 19th century from later on portrait and a medical text illustration. Like, that's not really proving anything.

[Holly Fry]

Right. But you understand that's the narrative structure is that they're building the audience to want them to be that.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Right, right.

[Holly Fry]

They want that outcome for the bones.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. There was a portion of the episode where they had an intersex person dress in the uniform of what he would have worn. And I was like, this is also not. Not about the DNA research.

[Holly Fry]

You only wanted a half hour show of DNA results.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I wanted. I really. That was the only thing that I was really there for was to find out, like, what did they actually say about this DNA research? And then when they got to that moment in the show and the answer was, there's a match between this talus bone and this other bone, I was like, I think I said what out loud because that is not what I thought was gonna happen. I was expecting that it was gonna be something else that was inconclusive and that it was just gonna sort of be, like, based on all of this other stuff that we have talked about over the course of this episode, then this.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But that when they were like, no, this is. This. There's a match. I was very surprised.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, see, this makes total sense to me in how you would write an episode like that for television.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It does to me too, but it was still irritating. Does that make sense?

[Holly Fry]

Like, I feel like, you know, they know what answer is coming, and they need to make it such that by the time you land the plane there, the audience can accept that information.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Because otherwise there are just one bazillion questions that will irritate other people of, like, wait, so what did he look like in his uniform? Are you sure nobody knew? How did this. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, that's really why they're writing it that way.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It was one of those things where I was like, I understand how these shows work. And I, like, I understand how a one hour documentary TV show, like, I understand Conceptually, what's happening, but I still found a lot of it very frustrating. I also, the tests that were done on these, they were not in any way non. Invasive. It was like drill a sample out of the bone.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And that's. There has, you know, have been less invasive methods for things that were done that have been developed in the more recent years. But this was, that's not what was done in this case. Anyway. I just, by the time I finished watching it, I was like, I needed to watch this so that I could understand what was actually said. Like, what was said and what was the substantiation for what was said. But then I was like, I wish I hadn't had to spend an hour of my life on that.

[Holly Fry]

I'm gonna ask you a question that's gonna sound obnoxious.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay.

[Holly Fry]

Why didn't you just jump to the end then?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Why didn't I just jump to the end?

[Holly Fry]

Cause I mean, it might just be like the result of my kind of ADHD brain. I'm like, I'm not, if I'm not in it, I'm not in it. I'm gonna skip ahead and see what I can find that actually, like hits the dopamine receptors and get out.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, I think I, I, I didn't know that there was not going to be useful material in the rest of the episode until I had seen it. What I really would have appreciated if would be if there had been a publicly available transcript of it that I could have just read through, because that would have gotten a lot faster and it would not have had the things about it that it would not have had some of the things in it that would have frustrated me. So anyway, and now I have Paramount things that I can watch.

[Holly Fry]

Well, that's a good Star Trek time coming to you.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It is a lot of Star Trek time. And it was a weird irony because Patrick and I had just gone through our streaming services and we had weeded things out because we were subscribing to a lot, a lot of them. And I was the only one at that moment who was watching anything on Paramount. And both of the things that I was watching had gone on like the mid season hiatus. And I was like, we can just get rid of this and I will probably come back to it at some point later. And then not very long at all after that was, oh, I need to watch this thing from Smithsonian Channel. And that's where I could watch it. So I was really interested in the way that Kazimir Pulaski has been Talked about, like, as a figure from the American Revolution, as a figure related to, like, Polish immigration and Polish national pride. Polish American pride, all of that. Multiple articles that I read that talked about, that talked about how Tadeus Kishuko, whose name I'm pronouncing. Cause that's to the best of my ability, was a more influential and important figure in terms of Polish people Right. In the Revolutionary War. And there were like at least three or four different articles that were like, he probably didn't get as. As much attention because his name is a lot harder for English speakers to say.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And I was like that. Honestly. Probably true.

[Holly Fry]

Fair. Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And it's. It sort of made. It made a layer of it, like, sense. Making of how this person who was. Had such a reputation for being kind of arrogant and quarrelsome and writing long letters to the Continental Congress that are like, you are treating me very, very badly. Wound up being kind of the illustrative example of. Of Polish involvement in the Revolutionary War.

[Holly Fry]

Right. You're doing it wrong. The Casimir Polanski story.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Pulaski story. Yeah, yeah.

[Holly Fry]

Just.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. Also, I am aware of Sufjan Stevens album, Illinois, Illinois, that then became a stage production. There is a song on it about Casimir Pulaski Day. I know that exists. I probably own that album. I just. I imagine getting lots of emails from listeners saying, are you aware that there's a Casimir Pulaski Day song on this album? Yes, I know. I'm aware. Anyway, I don't think I have anything further to say about. About all of this. I'm.

[Holly Fry]

I'm just tickled by what a pill he apparently was to everybody.

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jana Kramer]

Well.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And he was not the only officer from Europe who had that reputation.

[Holly Fry]

Right. There's definitely a cultural clashing element problem to all of that.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. And this is something that may or may not come up again on a reasonably near future episode that I don't know if it will happen or not, but sort of about the difference between the professional standing armies of Europe and the Continental army, which, especially in the early years, was like, just volunteers who had maybe been out drilling with their militia two or three times a year. If they were me, if they were very young, they might have done that one time or no times and were up against armies that had been, you know, drilling and practicing and subjected to continual discipline for years of their lives.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. And then a bunch of guys just doing their best.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, a bunch of guys doing their best. So you had officers coming over from a tradition of, you know, ongoing service and discipline in a standing army to, you know, volunteer militia members doing their best. So anyway, maybe that episode will happen, maybe not. I have not figured it out yet. I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I

[Holly Fry]

don't trust much of anything.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It's the rage bait.

[Jana Kramer]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[StartPage Announcer]

We got clear facts.

[Holly Fry]

Maybe we could calm down a little bit.

[NBC News Announcer]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

[Holly Fry]

Mom, are we there yet?

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

Talked about Rebecca Smith Pollard this week on the show. Oh Rebecca, I said this kind of off off mic in a In an aside I did not know about the anti Tom novel when I picked this and it reminded me of when we chose Anne Royal as a live show topic and we had already like, we had advertised the. We had advertised the live show. We had had T shirts made for the live show. And then I was like, oops, there is racism I did not know about in this. That is troubling to me. And I would not have chosen for a live show topic had I known ahead of time that that was going to happen. Because, I mean, we are. We don't shy away from discussing that on the show. No, but live show episodes are supposed to be fun in theory. Yeah. That one was not really. We haven't really done a live show in a while. But this sort of. Similarly, even though I was looking for things that were not like rah rah, USA, USA to potentially tie into America's 250, I would not necessarily have picked one that. Where we would need to discuss anti tom novels at length. Holly, do you remember learning how to read?

[Holly Fry]

A little?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay.

[Holly Fry]

I'm wondering if I had a similar situation to you.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

We're about to find out.

[Holly Fry]

A little frustrated at the pace of instruction.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, okay.

[Holly Fry]

I took matters into my own hands.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Okay. So my mom read to me a lot. And really, the only television that I was allowed to watch as a small child was sesame street and Mr. Rogers, and that was it. And through the combination of Sesame Street, Mr. Rogers, and my mother reading to me, I walked into the kitchen one day when I was 4 and said, I can read. And my mom said, I don't think so. And I sat down and read her. There's a monster at the end of this book, which is the book that she read to me every night because it was my favorite. And my mom was like, I think you have that book memorized. So I went into another part of the house and, like, pulled a book off the shelf that I had never been exposed to before that I think was, like, a school textbook that had been handed down from somewhere. Like, it wasn't a novel. It wasn't anything that I had ever read. But I took that into the kitchen and just opened it to a page and started reading from it. And my mom kind of went, okay, I guess you can actually read then. I stand corrected. Which is evidence of both my existence as a. As an early reader and also the fact that I had to be right.

[Holly Fry]

Mine is early evidence of what a little shrew I was, which has come up many times. But I remember I have older siblings significantly older than me. And I remember at one point in time, one of my siblings thought they were going to have didactic time with Holly, and they had, like, six sat down and done this thing where they were like gonna teach me the word cat and how to read it. And I apparently just looked at them and said, do you think I'm stupid? I was similarly around 4 or 5. It started real early.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

With like the police don't. With this. I also remember distinctly there was a. I don't know if it was like a yard sale or a secondhand shop, but I remember being quite tiny and looking through books at a secondhand situation and picking out a bunch. And my mom kind of just buying them for me without really, like perusing what they were.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Sure.

[Holly Fry]

And a lot of them were like spelling and reading instruction books. And I just kind of had my own little private classroom in my room that I don't think anybody realized was going on.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. I grew into one of those kids that got in trouble for reading in class when I was not supposed to be doing that or reading ahead of what we were supposed to be reading out loud. Because I read a lot faster always in my head than reading out loud.

[Holly Fry]

Always.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And even though I already knew how to read when I started kindergarten, like, I very viscerally remember the process of sounding things out and being taught to sound things out when I came into a word that I did not know. And so when I learned that there's kind of a generation of kids that didn't really learn that at all, I was like, what do you mean? And I do wanna say that, like, I don't think there's one way of teaching that works for everybody. Like, there are a lot of kids that have disabilities or learning differences or whatever that like, make one particular thing just not work for them and some other form of instruction is necessary. So I think that's part of it too. But the idea that there was just no phonics. It was like, what do you mean? Yeah, what do you mean? People didn't learn how to sound things out?

[Holly Fry]

Yeah. I feel like I got more of the. At least in like the classwork that I was exposed to was more of the word, whole word stuff. But a lot of my, like, interest in reading was just driven by wanting to know things.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Oh, sure. Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

You know what I mean? Like, that was. And it wasn't necessarily stuff I was gonna get taught in school. So I would just be proactive about it and I don't know. Bossy. What, do you think I'm stupid?

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Holly Fry]

What a brat.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Pollard's methods and the level of granularity in all of the different phonemes does sound to me kind of tedious. The fact that there was so much that she just called busywork. I don't know if other people were calling things busy work in the 19th century, and that was just, like, part of the lingo. But the fact that it was called busy work, I was like, yeah, this does sound like busy work to me. Marking all of the phonemes in your reader.

[Holly Fry]

Oh, but those kids, like, their level of mastery was probably, like, so far ahead of anybody else in their age group. Yeah. That's the thing. Sometimes that stuff that feels like busy work is really like drilling things in a way that you will never, ever

[Tracy V. Wilson]

in your life forget it for sure. Yeah, yeah. Side note, I went to Stratford Upon Avon on my trip to England, and I went to the schoolroom where Shakespeare would have gone to school. I'm not actually sure if there's evidence that he did go to school there, but it would have been the school he would have gone to. And it is a school that's still in operation. And they don't start tours until 11 because there is a morning class that, like, meets in the classroom, the, you know, historic classroom that's still there. And the tour group did just sort of a little simulation of how students would have learned by rote through memorizing things, which is not at all how it worked when we memorized things. When I was a child, you faced the person across from you and you set it into each other's faces over and over. I was face to face with someone who I think may have also been there by herself and had a tote bag that said, though, but she is little, she is fierce. I'm saying that wrong. But anyway, Shakespeare quote. Yeah, I think it is. Though she be but little, she is fierce.

[Holly Fry]

It sounds right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

I think that's right. I suddenly needed to call it up into memory, and it wasn't there.

[Holly Fry]

Anyway, though she be but little.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, though she be but little, she is fierce. I will work it out. We'll get there. I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I

[Holly Fry]

don't trust much of anything.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

It's the rage bait.

[Jana Kramer]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

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We got clear facts.

[Holly Fry]

Maybe we can calm down a little.

[NBC News Announcer]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

[Holly Fry]

Mom, are we there yet?

[Jana Kramer]

10 more minutes.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Only 10 minutes. Can you drive slower? What's up with them today? Lingokids, that app we downloaded last week.

[Jana Kramer]

They love it. You, the games, this funny baby bot character. Kids we're almost there.

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

A couple of things. The song talk about one, the poem, the trist poem that she and another poet each wrote to one another and had published in the Journal. Yeah, I feel a modern reader reading this today would go, that is the most sapphic thing I have ever seen. Yeah, you know, in the era when it was published, if anybody had thought that it wouldn't have been in the newspaper. But it also had this note from the editor which did not really fit in that moment in the episode. But I found, I don't know, it said, quote, our gallantry is shocked at the thought of the spirits of two charming young menstrual girls wandering about at midnight by themselves in this bad world without a protector. And I was like, they were not actually outside. I know that and you know that.

[Holly Fry]

But I think this was him going, of course we don't want young ladies to do this. Because he was anticipating the people that were gonna write in and be like, why would you suggest this? And instead of going, they're not really doing that. This is a theoretical. Blah, blah, blah. He could just go, of course we would.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Of course not.

[Holly Fry]

Never.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. The other thing that I had noted here was just that, like, we have talked before. It has come up on the show, like, in almost side mentions of people, people who were enslavers, but also fiercely against secession from the Union during the Civil War. And, like, that has just sort of come up in passing sometimes. And this, I think, is the first time that I have really been reading the thoughts of somebody who apparently was anti abolition, but also a staunch, staunch unionist. It's a weird. A weird tangle to wrap your head around.

[Holly Fry]

I have theories. Here they are.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And you had thoughts about this that you were going to share?

[Holly Fry]

I really, really do. I think this is purely my conjecture. I didn't even do the research for this episode. But based on all of the information we have about her, I feel like she might have been a case of one of those people who is a very clever person, probably got told as much a lot growing up. And when she hears new information, she digests it and thinks it through and then has ideas about it. And because she's a very clever person, people encourage her to voice those ideas without necessarily really talking through what it all means. And I bet that that's part of why she went on her little weird tirade, because then later on in her life, she seems to have taken a different stance. Yeah, that's my only thinking. I suspect she was young and processing information she had at hand. Someone influential in her life had said, like, these people are ruining the Union with their, oh, sure, upstart ways. And she was like, you know what? They sure are. Didn't really, like, get through all of the bigger picture stuff about what was going on. That's my guess.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. I can definitely say I held some opinions in my teens and early twenties that were bad.

[Holly Fry]

We all did.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Like, very bad. It's part of when I was. Yeah, when I was exposed to other information, I was like, oh, that is a bad opinion. I will say there will probably be something between now and the end of my life that I think right now that I will be like, oh, that was a bad opinion that I had.

[Holly Fry]

Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Now I've learned from that. And that was one of the reasons that I Kind of went to try to see, like, what were her thoughts on this later. I'm also not fully clear the parts of this novel that I read. There are conversations that happen that are. It's clear which side is the side that she is setting up as the correct side.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

But then there are conversations that it. Like one of the characters will be basically saying, hey, these are people. Like, we are. We are all human beings.

[Holly Fry]

Right.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

And I'm like, are. Are you on the we are all human beings side? Because it kind of sounds like you might be from this passage. Are you more concerned with this idea of preserving the union? And that's what dri. That's what's driving it. Rather than being like explicitly pro slavery for racist reasons that, you know, that there were also people that had those opinions. And I really didn't get to the bottom of that. And I might have if I had been willing to read the entire book, but that was too much. Was too much.

[Holly Fry]

She had just enough information to be dangerous. I'm telling you. Yeah, I believe it in my soul.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

So, yeah, she's a complicated person who. The fact that she, from what I can understand, she put together this instructional method that was very motivated by what she thought actually helped children learn and also making sure teachers had what they needed to be able to teach. Yeah, that part I thought was really good.

[Holly Fry]

Terrific. Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

You know, even though I sort of think the amount of diacritical marking of textbooks might have been a little much. Maybe, Maybe, maybe.

[Holly Fry]

But also, I'm telling you, those kids knew their stuff. Yeah.

[Tracy V. Wilson]

Yeah. So anyway, that was Rebecca Smith Pollard. Whatever's coming up for you on the weekend, boy, do I hope it's great. There was just a strange noise outside my house, and I hope that's not a harbinger of anything. Oh, if there are any strange things happening in your world, I hope none of them are harbingers of worse things to come and that everything that's coming your way is going to be better than what was before. We will be back on Monday with a brand new episode and tomorrow we'll be back with a Saturday classic. Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Jana Kramer]

This is Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. Hey, quick question for the parents listening right now. When's the last time your kid asked for something and you actually felt good saying yes? Because lately a lot of families have been hearing the same thing. Can I have Lingo kids please? And here's the thing. Lingokids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids with more than 4,000 interactive games, songs and shows. Astronauts, wild animals, superheroes, dinosaurs. It's literally everything kids love all in one place. So when they ask for it, you can actually feel good saying yes. Download Lingokids for free and start exploring today or unlock even more amazing content with LingoKids Plus. And if you go with the yearly plan, you can save up to 60%. Search LingoKids in the App Store or Google Play LingoKids everything kids love when

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

Hey, stay in your lane.

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[Tracy V. Wilson]

is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.