← Stuff You Missed in History Class
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- [00:00]
Narrator
See Gladiator 2 only in theaters November 22nd. This film delivers action, an emotional and compelling story, and performances and spectacle on a scale unlike anything else. Gladiator 2 stands out with its immersive visuals and a gripping, character driven narrative. The film stars an extraordinary cast including Paul Mezcal, Pedro Pascal, Denzel Washington and Connie Nielsen. Reprising her role as Lucilla, get ready for an epic experience made for the big screen. Gladiator 2 only in theaters on November.
- [00:30]
Tracy V. Wilson
22Nd here's to Turkey Day, the favorite day of the year for many. From cozying up by the fire to watch the parade to gathering in the kitchen to whip up casseroles, it's a time of joy and togetherness. And here's to the Chinette brand for making it all a little easier with the Chinat Classic collection. No need to worry about cleanup. Plus, Chinat Classic plates and bowls are compostable, helping not just to keep the sink clean but also leaving less of a mess for future generations. So here's to being together. Together. Here's to us. All of us. Find a local retailer@mychinet.com what does every.
- [01:06]
Nate DeMaio
Grocery store aisle now have in common? Products that come in paper packaging, and not just the obvious ones like cereal boxes and juice cartons. From beauty products to boxed water, there are more opportunities to go papertarian than ever before. So why should you? Because paper comes from a renewable resource and can be recycled up to seven times. Simply put, it's the smart choice for the environment and it turns out, the easiest choice for you. Learn more@howlifeunfolds.com Papertarium this episode is brought.
- [01:36]
Advertiser
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- [02:05]
Tracy V. Wilson
Do you like podcasts, music and audiobooks? Because when you subscribe to Amazon Music Unlimited, you get all three in one app. Imagine listening to your favorite podcasts and music on the go to work, school, the gym, or better yet, vacation. Now imagine being on vacation with your favorite audiobook from Audible and then listening to a new one every month from a huge selection of popular titles. That sounds like a pretty Good vacation, right? Audible is now included on Amazon Music Unlimited. Download the Amazon Music app now to start Listening Terms apply.
- [02:40]
Nate DeMaio
Welcome to Stuff youf Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio.
- [02:51]
Tracy V. Wilson
Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson, and Holly is not here today, so instead I have a very special guest, which is Nate DeMaio of the podcast the Memory palace and also author of the forthcoming book the Memory palace, which is coming out from random house on November 19th. If you're not familiar with Nate's show, you will get a chance to change that in just a few minutes. Hi, Nate. Welcome to the show.
- [03:19]
Nate DeMaio
I am so happy to be here. I am a longtime fan of the show.
- [03:22]
Tracy V. Wilson
I'm a longtime fan of your show also. You have been on our show once before. That was nine years ago, which is hard to believe. At that time, you had 65 episodes. Now there are more than 220 episodes of your show. From just looking at the website today. How are we both still doing this? I guess that's my first question. Does it surprise you that all these years later we're both still doing the same thing?
- [03:52]
Nate DeMaio
You know, it does and it doesn't. On the one hand, you know, nine years. So I was realizing that I am. This is my 15th year of doing the Memory Palace. I'm about to enter my 16th year. And that is sort of insane. And it's been easy for me to keep track of that because it kind of started shortly after my daughter was born. And I was like, oh, I need to make sure I have, like, a creative outlet that I'm, like, building. And she's about to turn 16 in a couple of weeks. So here we are. Wow. Yeah. But that said, the thing that is actually more surprising than just its longevity is the notion that, you know, nine years ago, it felt like we've been doing it for a long time. It felt like we were really.
- [04:31]
Tracy V. Wilson
It did.
- [04:32]
Nate DeMaio
It really did. But on the. On the other hand, like I discovered fairly early on when I started to do these short narrative, you know, historical stories, put them to music, kind of found a voice that was, you know, factually accurate, but also a little bit dreamy and a little bit, you know, focused on sort of wonder and kind of just like the mystery of. Not just like the mystery of living in the past, but living in the present with the past. You know, the way that just for people who love historical stories like we do and thinking about it, that just kind of like magic place that invoking the past and the people that live there kind of brings out in you. I really discovered fairly early on as I started doing this that setting aside, you know, careerism and setting. Setting aside deadlines, there was just something I found personally useful and kind of exciting about doing these stories and about, like, taking the time to read about these figures and forgotten moments and, you know, find words, you know, and find words in music and the combination of those two things to, like, kind of share that sort of wonder that I. That experiencing those things, like, brought out in me and share them with listeners. And so, like, as a result, like, this just kind of feels like a thing. I feel like I found a thing that was useful to my life, and as a result, it feels like a thing I'm just kind of going to be doing in some capacity forever. Like, I felt like I stumbled upon a venue in the podcast to, like, express these things. So on the one hand, like, yeah, 16 years is a very long time, but on the other hand, it's a little bit of like, yeah, this is my life now, and it's. It remains a big and vital part of it.
- [06:16]
Tracy V. Wilson
I love that. It sort of reminds me of how I used to say that the first thing I found that I was really good at was being in college. And when I was hired to write for the website howstuffworks.com, which is a totally different website now than it was when they hired me, it was like being in college again because I was spending all of my time learning something and then writing about what I learned. And now my job is still that, but now I say the thing into a microphone afterward. And so it continues to be sort of an evolution of the first thing that I found that I thought I was good at and also enjoyed.
- [06:52]
Nate DeMaio
That's exactly right. And the truth of the matter, too, is there's also that aspect of, like, at some point, your spouse or your friend or the person at the bar gets a little bit tired of you saying, oh, I just learned this amazing thing. And two, put. Now you can put it out into the. You know, one puts it out into the air in hopes that the people that will be excited will find it.
- [07:14]
Tracy V. Wilson
Yeah. So stuff you missed in history class and the Memory Palace. These are both podcasts about history. Obviously, you and I and Holly, all three of us, are taking an approach that a lot of people describe as thoughtful. But your shows are, like a third the length of ours most of the time. The last time you were on the show, we talked about the fact that you have some episodes that are five minutes long that Holly and I get into the same story and we wind up with two 30 to 40 minute episodes. Something you talk about in your book that I think sort of highlighted the way that we are each approaching history in ways that are both similar and different is you talked about that all of the stories you cover on your show start with something that moved you. Holly and I often talk about starting with things that interest us. So sort of your show starts with kind of a thoughtful meditation on something that moved you, while Holly and I are more explaining all the things that we found interesting about a particular subject. So can you tell us a little bit about, like, what has led you to focus so much on being moved by something and on that level of emotional impact in historical stories?
- [08:33]
Nate DeMaio
Yeah, I think that similar to your notion of, like, that the thing that clicked for you was when you found a job that felt like you were back in college. For me, when I first got into journalism, there was just this sense of like, I was a kid and then a young adult who was always like, oh, I'm one of those people who's kind of like good at a number of different things and interested in a ton of different stuff. And it's hard to choose. I was one of one of those people and in journalism. And now the memory palace, like, kind of allows me not to choose. It's like, it puts the value on like, oh, I am interested in a lot of different stuff. And so yes, there is that interest that one might be interested in how bridges are constructed, or one might be interested in the invention of the zipper or what happened at this battle or that battle. But the thing that I find when I go to museums and the things that I find when I read history is that like that over and over again, that spark where I'm sort of like, oh, I do need to go tell this to my spouse. I do want to text my friend about that. Thing is that this thing has moved me. And like, I mean that like very in the, in the straightforward sense, like, that it has like, spurred some emotion. It has made me think nostalgically about old friends. It has taught me something about parenting. It has, you know, just like thrilled me with like, oh, my God, I cannot believe that people live that way. How, you know, and reminded me that we live differently. And that notion of being moved, like, to me it's. That's, you know, that's what I look for in life. It's what I look for in a movie, is that I want to, you know, come out and feel a little bit differently than I went in. And I just kind of had discovered that that was true of the past, that there was this kind of, like, magic that the. That the past held for me, like that it was this kind of, like, imaginative space that you could go back and you could read about George Washington or you could go back and you could read about, you know, Shipwreck Kelly, the guy who became, you know, famous for, you know, sitting on tall objects for inordinate amounts of time. And that real space, these are. These are real things that happen to real people. But what it really is doing is it's exciting your imagination like that Reading about history, when it's good, is no different than reading a. Than reading a novel. And I wanted to create a show that took that approach to history. And it doesn't mean that, you know, you know, that. It doesn't mean that I'm any less serious about getting the facts straight. But I have always been very feeling forward when it comes to experiencing that stuff. And so the format that made the most sense to me was also very feeling forward. Like, I want to create a show and write stories for this book about history that make you feel things that. That break your heart, that delight you. And. Yeah, and there's something, you know, when I, When I read my own book, as I did recently with my, you know, with. With sections of my audiobook, I'm like, boy, this is an earnest person. That's just. It is the truth. Like, it is a very feelings forward approach to history in a very wonder focused approach. And it continues to delight and drive me from story to story.
- [11:51]
Tracy V. Wilson
Well, it may please you to know that I started crying while reading your book about a story that not only did I already know, but that we also have covered on our podcast, which was about Ruth Harkness and the first panda brought to the United States. And just sort of the discussion of Ruth and who she was and thinking about what her interior world was like. As all of that was going on, I was sitting at my desk and realized I was like, I've been moved to tears by this thing that I already feel very intimately familiar with.
- [12:28]
Nate DeMaio
That's. Yeah, no, I think that that really. I think all the time about why we remember the things we remember. You know, that, like, in some of it is, oh, I remember that experience I had at the park, that scary experience, because, you know, our bodies are telling us to remember the trauma of that. But I also, like, think a lot about the kind of inverse of trauma. Just that things that are so delightful. Like, things that, like, allow you to connect with.
- [12:52]
Narrator
With another human being.
- [12:53]
Nate DeMaio
Like, those are the other things you remember. You remember that, you know, novel, exciting day with a parent when they took you to the park when you weren't expecting to go to the park or something like that. And I, you know, think all the time about, like, why it is that I remember, you know, certain events in my life. We are constantly, like, inundated with historical information like you. Like, not just because we might be history buffs, but things pop up on the Internet, you know, things in your Instagram reel. There are all these, like, little, you know, facts about history, but there are just aren't that many that are the ones that, like, make you suddenly tear up or that, you know, again, make you want to, you know, turn to your spouse or text your friend. And I've come to really, like, trust those things and be fascinated by why. Those are the things that move me. Like, why is it the story, you know, of Ruth Harkness and this woman going out to continue her husband's mission to find a panda, her recently deceased husband's mission to bring a live panda back to the United States, the first one, you know, that will leave China. And when those things move me, then I turn around to try to figure out, like, how can I also share this experience with someone else? And I'm glad that it seems like it worked in this. In this case.
- [14:05]
Tracy V. Wilson
My next question was going to be about how you decided which stories to put in the book. And I'm imagining that everything you just said was probably a big influence on that.
- [14:17]
Nate DeMaio
Yeah, I think so. You know, I. I grew up really loving kind of anthology books. You know, whether it was just sort of like the Book of Lists or like, Ripley's Believe it or not, like these. Like, these books of these short little pieces of different types, like, just held such sway on my, like, young reader life. But that's not really a thing that exists as we. As we become adults. Like, there are magazines and magazines kind of have. That can have that magic. But I wanted to kind of create one of those kind of, like, magic books that you get lost in. But ultimately that was one for adults that these were. That these were going to be stories that had, like, heft and that had, you know, depth that you did have the ability to move you and to, you know, potentially change you or change the way you think. You know, not just about the past, but things, you know, the way that you might live your life in the present. Like, you know, to Be really kind of pretentious about it, but I also want it to just simply have the power to kind of change your day, that you have this book of these short stories that you can like. I really, for the first time in a long time, the Memory palace, you know, has always just kind of been this, you know, nice, evocative name. But I kind of wanted to create something that felt like wandering in through a museum. One that you could take at your own pace, you know, one that you could read a couple of stories and put down, you know, one that you could pick up in the middle and see a picture that grabbed you and just start there. Like, I wanted to create, like, a book that was like a little bit of a portal or something like that. And so as a result, it just kind of became this. This, you know, practical question of how many stories should be preexisting stories that people love from the podcast. How many of these stories should be new, how many stories should be, you know, favorites that people who have listened, been listening for a long time, you know, will want to have the opportunity to kind of own and hold in their hands, you know, which is an opportunity that, like, you know, as fans, as a person who loves your show, it's like, I don't quite have, like, there is not that chance to just, like, you know, in the same way that, you know, that. That there are episodes of yours that I love in. In the same ways that I might love, like. That I might have, like, loved a book. But there's just. It would be nice to have that episode on my shelf. And it's been nice to give people the opportunity to do that. And so someone is like, which ones might people want to read and own and hold? Which one of these are simply just the best of what I've done. Which one of these, frankly, will work well on the page? There are some stories that are clearly audio stories from the podcast that, because they have, you know, a bit of audio, or there's just something about the way the music needs to work, or there's just something about the way that I need to dictate pace with my voice that simply just don't hold up on the page or don't work as well on the page. And so there are those considerations. And then there were, you know, also considerations about what opportunities does a book present. And for me, a lot of that was visual. So I created, you know, a number of new stories that, you know, hinge upon seeing images which created, you know, a whole set of stories that are about photographs, but also about the history of photography and about sort of the history of seeing and the history of living with visual records of our lives and our memories, which was its own opportunity. But then there was also a question that came from the publisher, which is essentially, like, is this a chance that you have to kind of, like, let people under the hood who do like the show, like, to kind of, like, let them know, like, where these stories come from or that sort of thing? And every idea they pitched on that sounded like bad DVD commentary, you know, and they were just like, no, no, no. I want to, like. Like, I would be delighted if every Memory palace listener bought this book. But the truth of the matter is, like, this is a great opportunity to get in front of people who are just readers. And the notion of, like. Like, hey, this story that you just read about Ruth Harkness, let me tell you where that came from. Like, that's not the way books work. Like, they don't. They don't come with that sort of experience. But I ultimately, like, did find as I was compiling the book and as I was, you know, really engaging with the breadth of the work over the course of all of these years, I just kept having this feeling that, like, I'm kind of an odd duck. Like, it's an. This is an odd passion that I have. And this is like, a slightly skewed perspective on sometimes familiar things or just that my curatorial vision about the things that move me and the things that interest me, that I. And the things I feel this weird need to share with people comes from a kind of strange person and strange consciousness. And, like, as a result, I was like, I think it is kind of worth unpacking. And so. So I ended up kind of developing this series of memoir stories, this kind of nested memoir, stories that I think ultimately give the reader, whether they're new to the stories or not, the sense of what makes them tick through the lens of what makes me tick.
- [19:04]
Tracy V. Wilson
I love all of that, and I loved those final stories in the book. I was not expecting to have those and to have kind of a personal insight into sort of some of your thought process. We are going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll get to hear a show from your podcast.
- [19:27]
Narrator
See Gladiator 2, only in theaters November 22nd. This film delivers thrilling action, a compelling story, emotionally charged performances, and spectacle on a scale unlike anything else. Only Ridley Scott could pull off a cinematic marvel at this scale. With sweeping storytelling and relentless action, Gladiator 2 stands out in the modern cinematic landscape with its immersive visuals, incredible score and a gripping character driven narrative. The film stars extraordinary cast including Paul Mezcal, Pedro Pascal with Denzel Washington and Connie Nielsen reprising her role as Lucilla. The fate of Rome rests on an uneasy alliance between Lucius and Macrinus who need each other to further their ambitions. Gladiator 2 is a complex political chess game, action packed revenge story with a beating emotional core. You will be on the edge of your seat as you experience the unexpected twists and turns throughout the film. Get ready for an epic, immersive, visceral experience made for the big screen. See Gladiator 2 only in theaters on November 22nd. Don't miss it.
- [20:27]
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- [20:57]
Tracy V. Wilson
Do you like podcasts, music and audiobooks? Because when you subscribe to Amazon Music Unlimited, you get all three in one app. Imagine listening to your favorite podcasts and music on the go to work, school, the gym, or better yet, vacation. Now imagine being on vacation with your favorite audiobook from Audible and then listening to a new one every month from a huge selection of popular titles. That sounds like a pretty good vacation, right? Audible is now included on Amazon Music Unlimited. Download the Amazon Music app now to start listening terms. Apply wow.
- [21:33]
Nate DeMaio
What is this place?
- [21:34]
Narrator
Welcome to Cloud 9.
- [21:36]
Nate DeMaio
How exactly did I get here?
- [21:37]
Narrator
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- [21:57]
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- [22:02]
Nate DeMaio
If you use paper, you're a human, but if you choose paper, you're a papertarian someone who lives a paper based lifestyle because it has a positive impact on the planet and also because it's the easiest choice you'll make all day. Seriously. It's as easy as reaching for boxed instead of bottled water. It's as easy as opting for beauty products that come in paper packaging. It's as easy as grabbing eggs in a cardboard container. And that's all in one trip to the grocery store. Which, if everyone's being honest, you were planning to go to anyway. But paper isn't just an easy choice. Papertarians know that. It's the smart choice too, because paper comes from trees, a renewable and sustainably managed resource. And paper products are designed to be recyc. In fact, when you choose products that come in paper based packaging, those fibers can go on to be recycled up to seven times. So why wouldn't you go papertarian? Learn more at howlifeunfolds.com Papertarian.
- [23:08]
Tracy V. Wilson
The next thing that you all are going to hear on the show today is this is One of Nate DeMaio's episodes of the Memory Palace. It is called the Temple of Dender and we will just let that go.
- [23:21]
Narrator
This is the Memory palace. I'm Nate DeMaio. At the start of a timeline of the history of the Temple of Dender, there's a story that goes that Caesar Augustus, the first Roman emperor, the adoptive son of Julius Caesar, after defeating Antony and Cleopatra and taking over Egypt, wanted to keep his new subjects in line. So he built a number of temples up and down the Nile to the local gods. It was a way to show the folks there that the new boss wasn't so bad, he wasn't going to force some weird new religion down their throats. And it was a show of largesse, a splash of cash on a public works project. He picked Dender, or his people picked Dender just north of Aswan because there was a smaller temple there already to two princes who'd drowned nearby in the Nile and had, through some mechanism of belief that held sway for a relatively brief time in ancient Egypt, become gods. And so the people of Dender had been used to going to that spot already to make offerings to deities, to ask for bountiful harvests and mild flooding and healthy sons who wouldn't drown. And so the Romans signed off in that location for Imada structure. And a few Years later, around 10 BC, there was this temple dedicated to Isis and Osiris and the two princes. And there were men there who had cut sandstone from a cliff face in a quarry, who'd carved it into blocks, who dragged them across the desert, who'd hefted them on their shoulders or sat upon them still warm beneath them as Sunset cooled the air and a breeze shook the reeds as they floated in a flat bottomed boat down the Nile where two princes had once drowned and become gods. And there were men who stacked those blocks, who chiseled them into columns and lintels, and falcon faced gods set them in place, just so, sat and ate in the shade of a wall they built with those blocks. And who would think from time to time as their lives went on, and they would see the temple, see it change colors with each change of the lead, or shimmer in the heat on the horizon, or see it half submerged by the Nile, flooded again. They'd see this temple and think, I built that I was here. And tell their kids who'd say, my father built that he was here, maybe their grandkids. Until eventually the Temple of Dender was just landscape and landmark sandstone eroding at the next points in the timeline. The story goes that travelers, explorers and soldiers and wealthy dilettantes discovered the Temple of Dender over and over again, Saw it in the distance as they came around a bend in the river, as their caravans crested a hill and they stopped for a spell, watered their horses or their camels, rested for a bit in the shade of its walls and carved their names. You can see them there. The first one is in an ancient script. Some tagger scraped it in like 2000 years ago, but you can still make it out. And then there's someone named Draveti in 1816 and an El Pulitti in 1819. Leonardo, Luigi Leandro, we don't know, but we can still almost see him there, mustachioed, sweating through wool and linen, chipping his name in the soft stone of this temple. There was an antiquities dealer or thief, depending on how you want to look at it, from Baltimore. His name's there too. And there's a New Yorker, Louis Bradish, who came upon this minor temple on his way to see better sights. It took a few moments out of his grand tour one day in 1821 to carve his name and say to history, I was here. The story goes that the Nile flooded too high, over and over again for millennia. That was the way of the Nile. And there is a point on the timeline in about 1954, when there were 23 million people in Egypt and the flooding was brutal and there was only one crop that year, and there was a food shortage that threatened to become a famine, but didn't quite. And so the government decided to raise the height of the Aswan Dam and make a lake that could help Irrigate enough land to ensure three crops a year and food for those 23 million. But that lake would drown the temple of Dender in many other archaeological sites. Far more significant hundreds of tombs and towns and forts. In Abu Simbel, the great temple of Ramses ii. The one with the four seated pharaohs carved in to the hillside. You know that one, I bet. The Egyptian government went to the UN which was brand new back then, and asked the nations of the world for help. And 50 countries gave money to save it and save as much of this history as they could. Afghanistan gave two grand togo, newly independent gave $815.30. As one of its first acts in the international stage, President Kennedy went to Congress and made an impassioned speech asking them to help preserve the antiquities and to seize their own moment in history and make their mark in the United States donated $12 million. And that money paid for cranes and trucks and chisels and contractors and archaeologists and day laborers to dismantle and box and store as many tombs and temples as possible, like this one here before the waters rose and rose. There is a point on the timeline marked November 22, 1963, when a young president was shot in the back of a car and fell onto his young wife beside him and then was shot in the head while it lay on her shoulder and he died. And then a couple of years later, after everything, after lbj, one hand on a Bible in one in the air, on Air Force One with Jackie beside him in the pink Chanel still bloodstained, after Jack Ruby and oswald, after John Jr. Saluting after all of it, the Egyptian government offered the American government a temple as a thank you for helping save so much from the flood. Other countries would get stuff too, but the United States gave the most money, so it would have first picked. And the story goes, that Jackie was asked to make the choice because saving the temples and the like had been a cause so dear to her late husband. That story is not entirely accurate, but that's how the story goes. And it goes on to say that she chose Dender. She chose this temple because it was the most beautiful and Jack would have loved it the most. And what she wanted, what she wanted for this temple, what she wanted for her husband, now two years dead, was to rebuild it in Washington D.C. amidst the faux Greco Roman temples to Lincoln and Jefferson, the fake Egyptian obelisk that is somehow supposed to evoke Washington. She wanted to use this real temple to Isis and Osiris and to two princes who'd drowned too young in the river and became gods as a memorial to the man she'd once met at a dinner party at a mutual friend's place and then fallen in love with and set out to spend the rest of her life with. And then, the story goes that the Metropolitan Museum of Art had hired a new director. His name was Thomas hoving. He was 36, which was remarkably young for a job like that in a place like this, especially then. But it was 1967. You can find it on the timeline there. And he was charged, in part, with harnessing the spirit of that age and making the Met a little less stodgy, within reason, certainly less sleepy. People who have been around the museum for a long time will tell you stories about coming here to look at art on summer afternoons when school was out, when tourists were in town, and have whole wings to themselves. And Thomas Hoving wanted to change that. He wanted crowds. Now, at the same time, President Johnson was deciding what to do with this gift from Egypt, he had already ruled out Jackie's idea for memorial. He wanted no part in deifying his predecessor. Instead, he wanted a kind of contest. He had museums and cities tell him why they thought they were the best place in America for an Egyptian temple. Not much of one, admittedly. Didn't come with any mummies or anything, wasn't even all that old. But there were proposals from all over. The Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, the Smithsonian, Memphis, Tennessee, and Cairo, Illinois, pitched their respective downtowns because they were named after cities in Egypt. And wouldn't that be cool? And now you listening to this story about a temple at the Met while maybe looking at that same temple at the Met, have a pretty good hunch how all this turns out. But the story here is that Hoving made a choice. He, too, knew this wasn't much of a temple. There were already dozens of objects in the museum's Egyptian art department. Far more important, he knew that it would cost a fortune to bring it here. He knew it had questionable aesthetic and historic value. But he also knew that you and I wouldn't really care. And he wanted to leave his mark on the history of the Med. He wanted to say, I was here. There's a black stripe that stretches along a section of the timeline of the history of the Temple of Dender. It delineates the period of protracted competition and debate over who would get to have it. But that section is super boring, so we'll skip over it. But there's one part of that story worth telling, and we'll mark it with its own little dot. When Thomas Hoving ran into some particularly thorny obstacle in the process. He called Jackie Kennedy, who was just about to get remarried, And Hoving asked her if she could help, if she could put in a word with President Johnson on behalf of the Met, she said. And Hoving said he wrote it down word for word. I want it to be built in the center of Washington as a memorial to Jack. I don't care about the Met. I don't care about New York, she said. I don't care if the temple crumbles into sand. The story goes that the Temple of Dender sat in pieces on an island in the middle of the nile for almost 20 years. Then it was packed up into 661 crates, sent up the river, tamed by the dam by then, and loaded onto a Norwegian freighter and borne across waves to New York. That was 1968. It sat around for nearly a decade. They built a plastic dome outside the museum where conservatives could work on it and keep it out of the elements. They were mostly waiting for a new wing to be built in a room here with a high ceiling and a wall of glass looking out onto the park, made specifically to house the Temple of Dender. And then curators and teamsters and workmen brought it inside and put it back together. They are still around, a lot of them still saying, surely to themselves, to their kids, to the grandkids, now that they built this, that they were here. And there's another point on the timeline, another part of the story. The Times wrote it up one day. They were rebuilding the temple. Scaffolding, hard hats, ancient dust catching the light through the windows. And work just stopped because Jackie Onassis and her daughter Caroline, who was just about to turn 18, came into the room. Jackie lived a block away. It was 1975. It had been 12 years since her husband had been shot in the head while it lay on her shoulder. The Times didn't record what she said or know what she felt, of course, just that she looked around a while and signed autographs for the workers. And the timeline stretches on, with a point marking the opening reception in 1978. Champagne flutes, wide lapels. There's a point placed at hoving's death in 2009. Dender is mentioned right near the top of his obituary. There are new placards in the wall opposite the park. The old ones had yellowed with age. We'll mark a point for their arrival. The curators are very proud of. They are filled with all sorts of details that will help the curious visitor place this temple in its proper historical context to understand what distinguishes Ed, built as it was in the so called Roman period 30 BC to 640 AD from temples of earlier epochs, those epochs traditionally being distinguished by various things. There is a point where the teachers telling school groups the story explaining how this minor temple comes from the tail end of what we think of as Ancient Egypt, the golden sarcophaguses and mummies and stuff, a time when the old gods were on their way out and explained that we are closer in time to its construction right now by almost 500 years than the construction of the pyramids and the Sphinx were to the men who built this temple and sat in its shade. But you can just tell that the story when the kids get home will be Mom, I saw the place where they put the mummies and good for them. Mark a point for the night when one of those kids sleeps and dreams of dender. Mark a point for the selfie taken at arm's length, the tourists saying I was here. Another for the security guard saying no flash please for the gajillionth time that day, one for the toddler eyeing the pool with the papyrus, with his parents warning him away lest he be drowned and deified. Mark a point for each change in the light and how they change how the temple looks and mark a point for you here now. This episode is written and produced and stuffed by me, Nate DeMaio of the memory Palace Podcast and executive produced by.
- [38:48]
Nate DeMaio
Limor Tomer, General Manager of Live Arts.
- [38:51]
Narrator
At the Met, with research assistance from Andrea Milne and engineering assistance from Alyssa Dudley. My residency is made possible by the Metropolitan Museum of Art's Chester Dale Fund. The Memory palace is a proud member.
- [39:03]
Nate DeMaio
Of radiotopia, a network from prx, which.
- [39:07]
Narrator
Receives support from the Knight foundation and from its generous listeners. Learn more about the memory palace@thememorypalace.org and subscribe on itunes, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [39:33]
Tracy V. Wilson
So now that everyone has heard the Temple of Dender, something I found very interesting about this episode of your show is the fact that it was at it was done as part of your residency at the Met, and I remember when that residency happened I thought it was such a cool opportunity to combine museum with an audio production and to put all of these things together. And now this has moved into a new medium of a book and it gave you the opportunity to follow up the episode with another chapter basically of the book that is parts excised from that story. Do you want to talk about That a little bit how that evolved.
- [40:17]
Nate DeMaio
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I absolutely love being the artist in residence of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. And it's still, like. It's. It's still. And the off chance that I get to go these days is a West Coaster boys. It's still really cool to see a little plaque that says the name of the thing, that says the name of one of the episodes that I produced. And then my name, like. Then, like, American born, 1974, as though it's just like any other artwork in the Met. It's incredible. And I really, you know, in. In doing these stories about, like, the stuff that moves you, there's just, like, nothing sort of more kind of magical than some of these incredible spaces that they've created in the Met. And so, you know, to create a story about, you know, to be listened to, ideally in one of those spaces, but also, that is something that's so iconic to the museum. And then to kind of, like, draw out the sort of, like, wonder in the mundanity of that story is really where the memory palace lives. Like, the notion that. That this can be this run of the mill, you know, minor temple, but that has been imbued with such meaning over the years, is a thing that just I find enduringly fascinating. And when I was walking around the Met looking for stuff to do stories about and talking to the curators about it, and there's nothing more fun in the world than talking to an expert about the thing that they love. And so to be able to get to do that was such a thrill. And I was like, oh, cool. So I'm going to do this story about this American painting, and I'm going to do this story about these objects, and then I'm going to do a story about the Temple of Dender. And I just want it to be really straightforward. I want to call it the Temple of Dender. And I was told, yeah, you can't do that. I thought I was, like, the artist of resonance. I thought that, like, you know, I had free reign to do whatever I want. Like, yeah, of course you have free reign to do whatever you want. That's fine. But you can't actually just call a thing the Temple of Dender, because it turns out, as many people know at this point, that. And I did not that the Temple of Dender, in every mansion, in every publication that the Met does, and this would fall under that category, had to, by contractual agreement, say that it was the Temple of Dender in the Sackler wing of the Sackler Gallery of the Sackler whatever, sponsored by the Sackler family, you know, who made their money, you know, first in medical antiseptics, but then selling drugs directly to. Using doctors to sell drugs directly to patients. And they made so much of their fortune selling OxyContin to people. Not only was this a key component to the history of the Temple of Dender that I could never quite find a way to tell. Even, you know, with the residency of the Met, there was just something about the story began to overwhelm it in which didn't feel. It just didn't feel right to the kind of magic of that place and the magic of frankly of what the Met has built there. And so I was like, oh, I feel like I. This, it. This now needs to be a thing that like becomes part of the story because it's very clear. And I kept sort of trying to shoehorn it into the story and it just. Everything kept falling apart. And I realized that it needed its own addendum. It needed its own sort of moment in the kind of like shifting sun of the Gallery of the Met. And it was one of these kind of cool opportunities that the book provided like that to be able to kind of return to that story, to tell how the Sackler just became involved and to tell ultimately, you know, how activists led by Nan golden, the artist, were able to, you know, change the history of that, to put their own mark on that room and put their own mark in, you know, their own place in the timeline. It felt like kind of a real gift to the book and also just to be able to frankly restore the very simple title. This is always supposed to be the Temple of Dendur and it now can be again.
- [44:21]
Narrator
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Tracy V. Wilson
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Nate DeMaio
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Nate DeMaio
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- [48:03]
Tracy V. Wilson
Has there been any other thing or person or whatever that you've covered on your show that you have later wanted to have some kind of addendum to clarify anything about it, add any nuance, anything like that?
- [48:18]
Nate DeMaio
You know, not too often because the truth of the matter is like for a memory palace story to feel finished, then I kind of need to figure out what it means to me. Like it really comes down to that. Like that one, you know, finds a story about, you know, as we both do as we trawl or we just stumble upon exciting things. And one finds a story about Ruth Harkness and her panda. And on the one hand it's a very, it's a very easy story to make cool because it's a very cool story. There are like lots of interesting facts and exciting incident. But the question always, you know, I have this, I have a list. It is dozens and dozens and dozens of potential topics long. I'm sure you guys have the same kind of file. And I look at it sometimes and I'm like, how come there's absolutely nothing I want to tell a story about?
- [49:05]
Tracy V. Wilson
I have the exact same experience.
- [49:06]
Nate DeMaio
Like, and also you're just like, why did I ever care about that thing? But then over time sometimes like something frankly often like occurs in your life and you're. And you'll say like, oh, I realize that this is a story about having aging parents or oh, I realize that this is a story about an ambition of a certain type of thing that I am currently now feeling this is about. And so I wait for that feeling. I wait for like this is the thing I want to say about the world to pair up with one of those stories. And so suddenly like Ruth Harkness story, you know, comes a little bit about like these times in your life when you let yourself like go on an adventure and that can be a true adventure like Ruth goes on or it can be just like, oh, I pursued this thing that took me beyond what I thought I might be capable of and that you go and do that thing and it, and it kind of fills your life in a certain way and, and, and everything feels right. And I was very moved by the fact that she, you know, as her life falls apart as frankly often happens in these stories that, you know, when one thing about history is you get the whole span of the life. And I am very interested in what happens to people after they do the thing we know them for and how they reckon with it and how it lives with them. Ruth's story is one of these things where, you know, you think back to it, and I'm so interested in, like, oh, like, things felt right for her for a while and then they don't. And there's something I find a lot of sort of particular sadness that was worth exploring in there. But that said, so when a memory palace feels done, it feels done. Like, it feels like, oh, I've said the thing I need to say, and there might be, like, extra stuff that I kind of wish I could get in there. And there might, but that usually means. So let's wait for another time to, like, tell that other aspect. Let's wait for a different meaning as opposed to, like, let's just get some more information in there. Does that make sense?
- [50:59]
Tracy V. Wilson
It does. It definitely does. And I think that's sort of one of the things that's reflective of differences between the way your show works and the way our show works, because ours is often a very this happened and then this happened, and then this happened chronological story. And so occasionally there will be a discovery about one of the things that we thought happened that didn't real happen or, you know, a realization that somebody will find, you know, some previously unknown document that reveals new insight that did.
- [51:32]
Nate DeMaio
Happen in this book, now that I think about it, you know, but it was not one of those things where I'm like, oh, great, here's an opportunity to revisit this story or add to it. It was like, oh, shoot, I have to reckon with this. And that is the story of Hercules, who was an enslaved, you know, a person enslaved by George Washington. When I did that story originally in, like, 2015 or something like that, the end of the story hinged upon the wonder and strangeness and kind of magic of the notion that after his escape, like, people lose track of him and that, you know, in that he can kind of only live on in our imagination on some level, this real person who has become this thing. And if that's the case, then, like, let's make sure that we hold him in a similar way in our imaginations that we hold Georgia Washington. And let's hang his, you know, his memories and sort of like, you know, the crime of the ownership of this man on George Washington. And let's, like, let's keep that going and, like, let's. We have the ability to kind of control what we take from the story. And this is what I'd like you to take. And it turns out that six months after I released that episode, they figured out where he went. And I did not know that. Like, I just, I missed the news because it was not actually front page news. And during the fact checking process, someone's was like, excuse me. It's like, oh. And so, so there was this real question about like, oh, this thing needs an entirely different ending. And this is a story I like. And there's real value in this and there's value within the kind of like.
- [53:02]
Narrator
Construct of this book to have this.
- [53:04]
Nate DeMaio
Type of story in there at this particular moment. I'm like, oh, I. But then one has to find not just a different ending, you know, it's not, it's not. It's not a language question, it's a meaning question. How does this change the meaning? And, yeah, and it was a. It was a surprise challenge, but one that again, sort of. It was kind of lovely to immerse myself again sort of in that moment and kind of see, like, oh, have I did what I got out of it then? Not only does it hold up under these new facts, but does it also hold up, you know, several years later as I have changed? Yeah, it was exciting to revisit it.
- [53:41]
Tracy V. Wilson
So is there anything that you want to make sure that people really know about this book or your podcast, what you're working on, any of that?
- [53:50]
Nate DeMaio
I like to think of what I do in terms of like, writing these short stories that every two weeks I'll read the podcast and then, you know, more often. When I was working on this book, I've discovered that I really have this, like, it's almost. It's almost become like a yoga practice where, like, it just does me good to think about the past. It does me good to think about the way that lives go. And it does me good to remember that we're all going to die someday and that our time is short. And I've just find such value in sort of like writing these things. And I really do think about, like, the value of the stories themselves and what I kind of want someone to get out of. The truth is, like, I kind of wanted people to get what I put into it. I don't mean that like the sweat. I just mean that like, I like to think of these stories as having the ability when they work well, to kind of like inject like a little shot of feeling into one's life like, we are all. And I certainly am just like wrapped up in the kind of like in the just whirr and sputter of the everyday. And I want each of these stories to kind of just have the ability to kind of like shift your day a little bit, if that makes any sense. And you know, I want it this to be the like, I want the podcast to kind of be like the thing that can like to bring like, sort of like genuine wonder in like the strangeness of the world into like the span of a dog walk. And I want, you know, this book to be this thing that like sits on your shelf or you have in your pocketbook or you have, you know, in your carry on bag that like, you know that at each turn you're going to start, you don't know where you're going to go, but that you'll be like that things will be a little different on the other end of the story.
- [55:36]
Tracy V. Wilson
I love all of that having read this. This is really, it's, it's such a lovely book and I think it's the exactly the kind of book that I would, if I had not just read the entire thing, preparing to talk to you about it. Definitely the kind of book that I would have nearby for when I had a moment and needed a moment to sort of reset my brain and my perspective. Also, every time I hear the words this is the Memory palace, I'm Nate DeMaio. I feel comforted, even though I know there is a chance that what I'm about to hear is going to be heartbreaking. So take that as you will, listeners. I said earlier, you have been on our show once before. If folks are listening right now and are thinking, I want to hear this other episode where they talk to Nate DeMeo. Holly and I both interviewed you on June 10th of 2015. That's when that came out so long ago. And your book is being published by random house on November 19th of this year. Which is 2024, right?
- [56:41]
Nate DeMaio
That's correct.
- [56:43]
Tracy V. Wilson
So if you haven't heard the Memory palace before, you can find the Memory palace on anywhere you get your podcasts. Same with us. And with stuff you miss in history class, anywhere you get your podcasts. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Nate, for talking to me today. I hope everyone has enjoyed listening to you and listening to your show today.
- [57:03]
Nate DeMaio
Thank you so much.
- [57:09]
Tracy V. Wilson
Stuff youf Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Here's to Turkey Day, the favorite day of the year for many. From cozying up by the fire to watch the parade to gathering in the kitchen to whip up casseroles, it's a time of joy and togetherness. And here's to the Chinette brand for making it all a little easier with the Chinette Classic collection. No need to worry about cleanup. Plus, Chinet Classic plates and bowls are compostable, helping not just to keep the sink clean but also leaving less of a mess for future generations. So here's to being together. Here's to us. All of us. Find a local retailer@mychinet.com See Gladiator 2.
- [57:59]
Narrator
Only in theaters November 22 this film delivers action, an emotional and compelling story, and performances in spectacle on a scale unlike anything else. Gladiator 2 stands out with its immersive visuals and a gripping character driven narrative. The film stars an extraordinary cast including Paul Mezcal, Pedro Pascal, Denzel Washington and Connie Nielsen. Reprising her role as Lucilla, get ready for an epic experience made for the big screen. Gladiator 2 only in theaters on November.
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Tracy V. Wilson
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