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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. This episode of Stylish is brought to you by Merit, the minimalist beauty brand making you feel your best in minutes. Right now, Merit Beauty is offering their signature makeup bag with your first order@merit beauty.com. that's M E R I T beauty.com. Hello, guys. We are back. I'm Rhiannon Joyce, and today I'm joined by Madison Sullivanthorpe. To be fair, our little dynamic duo has been few and far between over the past few weeks.
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B
Got a great episode to be back with Ri. I could not be prouder of you and this one.
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C
Oh, my God.
- [00:45]
A
This was a real tick box moment for me. Tick box. Come on. It's one of the biggest moments of my life, I will be honest.
- [00:51]
B
Oh, don't tell Louis Whittell that.
- [00:53]
A
Your husband. It's up there.
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B
Ray, you were lucky enough to interview Emma Grade, who we have spoken at length about on this podcast. But we're gonna get into that very soon. You are gonna ask me what my word of the week is.
- [01:07]
A
What is your word of the week?
- [01:08]
B
My word is nostalgia. It's not a surprising one. And maybe you're listening to this, going, basic, whatever.
- [01:15]
A
It's not that it's basic. I just think it's very, very prevalent everywhere at the moment.
- [01:20]
B
It's everywhere. And I feel like it has been this recurring theme. It's like the ocean. It just swells every now and then. And we talk about it more, whether we're talking about archives on red carpets, whether we're talking about content pillars and people using film and camcorders and all of these things. But where I want to center it at the moment is two parts. One is Chanel. I could not have been more obsessed with the video that Chanel released with Margot Robbie and Kylie Minogue. And what I don't think a lot of people immediately realized who were maybe a little bit younger was that it was a nod to Kylie Minogue Come into my world 2001 film clip. And we have Kylie sort of in the window singing.
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A
A bit of a cameo.
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B
She's a cameo.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yes.
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A
She's a guest star in her own world.
- [02:06]
B
And Margot Robbie is the main character cosplaying as Kylie in this, obviously, in Head to Toe Chanel. And I was just like snaps all around. This is such a great nod. I love that they're both Australian. That made me feel weirdly proud. Tell me. We had spoken about Graham Norton and a little bit of breadcrumbing, which you'd liked as well.
- [02:24]
C
Yeah.
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A
I love when these things play out. And you look back at maybe like a three to six month period and you realize, oh, we've been played as fools. As if this was entirely organic and, you know, just came out of nowhere. It made me think back to this Graham Norton episode where Margot Robbie was featuring. And I believe she was promoting Wuthering Heights at the time, but she kept talking about Kylie Minogue. She's also just been quite vocal about how much she idolizes Kylie Minogue and sees her as an icon. And I did think that was quite funny that perhaps at that time, honestly, I would assume it was already in production at that point. So I think she knew what she was doing.
- [02:57]
B
Yeah, I think she knew exactly what she's doing. She probably stepped off the film set,
- [03:00]
A
probably, which I love. I love that level of strategic, you know, foresight to be able to breadcrumb that from that point on and then it play out in real time and everyone gets up and about. It was honestly couldn't open Instagram without someone sharing it on their stories. And I understand why, particularly the Aussies. Also, when you go into the comments on that post, everyone, I obviously it brings up everyone that you follow, but so many people that I would say, like, in my orbit that do not comment on celebrity post or in the social realm at all, we're just like, oh my God, so proud, so happy to be Australia. Love this, love this.
- [03:32]
B
But the other nostalgia piece that I feel like I've seen a lot of in the last few weeks is, is Miley Cyrus returning as Hannah Montana for the 20th anniversary. And I've seen so many memes of like me in 2006. And it's like them with like a Dr. Pepper and then it's like me in 2026 and it's like them with a glass of champagne and Hannah Montana's on both screens. I just think maybe it's a tense time and maybe we feel a lot of comfort and familiarity in being able to go back and revisit films that we've watched or TV series that we've loved or, you know, characters or celebrities that we've had affinities with for 20, 30 years. So that we feel comforted. Let's get into the main event, the interview with Emigrate. If you have not heard of Emma
- [04:17]
A
Grade, where you been?
- [04:17]
B
You probably haven't been listening to this podcast.
- [04:19]
A
You're new here.
- [04:20]
B
She is a businesswoman, entrepreneur and fashion designer. We have spoken about her at length on this podcast. In fact, I think had we have done a dream guest pyramid. Very beginning. Yeah. Vision Board.
- [04:33]
A
She would have been on the top of the pyramid. Biggest image in my mood. Board, vision board.
- [04:38]
B
She would have been the A4 on
- [04:40]
A
your A3, the jewel in the crown.
- [04:42]
B
She is well known for being the co founder of Good American, the denim brand that she launched with Khloe Kardashian, a founding partner of Skims, which she co founded alongside Kim Kardashian and co founder of Off Season, a brand that's collaborated with NFL, very much centered around that NFL paraphernalia and merch. Nostalgia. Ray, what do you think about all of this?
- [05:04]
A
God, I've been itching to talk about this interview. It's been under embargo for a few weeks now. So taking myself back, I was really nervous, obviously, because this is someone who I've idolized for a really long time. But she really bounced with me and like, really took the bait. Like, there were a couple of times where I was like, I'm going to have a poke here. I'm going to be a little bit cheeky. I felt like she really lent in, which gave me also a lot of confidence in being able to push a bit more.
- [05:29]
B
Yeah, I love that that happened for you because I think, you know, more often than not, the saying goes, never meet your heroes. I had a deep gut instinct that she was going to be as fabulous, authentic and raw as she comes off. And I was so thrilled when you called me after the interview to be like, mads, she's a dead set legend. Which is such an Aussie thing to say. So, Emma, if you're listening, dead set legend means tick, tick, tick. 11 out of 10 human. Yes.
- [05:54]
A
And a lot of the conversations we had did center around themes within her book, which I also read in preparation for the interview. But it is so stylish, coded, the conversations we had. We cover career, we cover, you know, women in leadership positions and women building businesses in the public eye. There is so much of stylish that shows up in this interview from the perspective of someone who is so highly regarded and so well respected. I'm so excited to get into it. Let's go, guys. I think we can all agree that some mornings a full makeup routine is just not realistic. There's not always time for every step when you're just trying to get out the door. But those first moments of the day really do matter. Your morning impacts everything that follows. When I feel put together and feel confident in myself, I'm honestly just better at my job. Just like choosing an outfit that makes you feel good, it's not about doing the most. It's just about being intentional. That's where Merit Beauty comes in. They have truly changed the game. They've completely simplified the process with a really thoughtful, edited lineup designed for a quick five minute routine. Everything is easy to use and gives you that natural, polished look in just a few swipes. It's the kind of makeup that helps you feel like your best self without overthinking it. The official office favorite at Shameless Media is the Flush Balm. This blush product gives you that really fresh, healthy glow. And clearly we're not the only ones who are obsessed with it because one was sold every 30 seconds in 2024. As a longtime lover of Merit, I really need to talk to you about the Minimalist. This is a makeup bag essential. I use this product as both a foundation and concealer to give me enough coverage without having to layer additional products. I also love how buildable the coverage is and it's actually what I use for my everyday makeup in the office. Plus, everything is clean, vegan and cruelty free, which just makes it feel better to use. Guys, right now, Merit Beauty is offering their signature makeup bag with your first order at merit beauty.com that's m e r it beauty dot com. We will pop the details in the show notes for easy access. Happy shopping guys. And thank you so much to Merit for making this episode of Stylish possible. This is a very surreal moment for me. I have the pleasure of sitting down with the incredible Emma grid. Emma, thank you for joining us on Stylish.
- [08:05]
C
Oh, thank you so much for having me. I couldn't be more happy than to speak with you this morning, honestly and
- [08:11]
A
for context, you're in London at the moment. It's early in the morning.
- [08:16]
C
That is true. It is early doors in London. I've been up for hours after not such a great night of sleep because that's the problem. The bloody jet lag from la. It doesn't give up.
- [08:26]
A
No. Given that we are based in Australia, we are all too familiar with jet lag. That 24 hour journey to London is always torture, torture, absolute torture. Now, I am really excited to start somewhere that I think a lot of our listeners will be surprised because I usually play in the fact space, not the feelings. But I'm going to go with the feelings in our first question.
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C
Go on, girl, you can do it.
- [08:50]
A
I would love to know what has been the loneliest part of building your career.
- [08:55]
C
It's actually a great place to start because I think that from the outside you would imagine you Know, it's like, I have really big teams and have had from for a really long time now. But the journey of being an entrepreneur is by default very lonely because it's really heavy. And the stuff that, you know, really a lot of it ought not to be shared. You know, it's like the things that you want to convey to a team and you want to convey to your customers don't always line up with the reality of what you're building and what you're doing every day. And I think that that is where sort of overall resilience and attitude, and I mean attitude really broadly, right in like, your default hard wiring to life, like, that's where that kind of comes in and I think is the difference between somebody that is really cut out for building businesses and somebody who's perhaps not.
- [09:52]
A
I love that I have noticed a bit of a surge over the last few years, you being really present. And I found that shift interesting and I've loved it. I follow your podcast Aspire. I follow you on Instagram, and I've loved seeing more of you, to be honest. I would love to know why now. Why are you leaning more into the personal profile and the advocacy piece?
- [10:16]
C
Yeah, you know, honestly, if you'd have gone back and asked me, you know, go back to the beginning of Good American eight years ago, I think I had one post on my Instagram and it was food, surprise, surprise. But, you know, it's really like, that isn't my default nature. And I think what's happened as my profile is raised, I've understood how a. How few models there are for women in culture, in business, more broadly. I really kind of strongly disagreed with a lot of the rhetoric that was out there for women. I was like, that's bs and that's not. Certainly not my experience. And then, you know, I think it just comes down to, like, just the sheer volume of questions I was getting. Like, whether it's in, like, DMs, or if I'm like, at a conference or just on the street, quite frankly, people will always come up to me. And I don't think people are that interested in how I've done what I've done. I think people wanna know for themselves how they can do it. And so for me, it became almost like something that was necessary and needed. And I think it's about, you know, what I'm trying to do is create this model for what is possible, but also to try to level people's thinking with what you need to actually do to be successful. Because I do think that there's a lot of messaging out there that actually holds women back. And I want people, specifically women, to understand, you know, if you're ambitious, that's gonna come with a level of discomfort. And if you wanna get paid what you deserve, then that's gonna require some audacity. And, you know, if you want a big career, then that's gonna require you to have a level of visibility and proximity to the people that you're working for. And so there's all of this stuff that's out there. You know, I think about the messaging that we're all fed around. Having children and families. Well, families require timing, right? And there's no such thing as a perfect time to have a kid, but there is a biolo. And so I really want to make sure that women have more power. And let me tell you, power has to be taken. Nobody is coming to hand it to you. And make no mistake, more than ever, we are in desperate need of women to have more power in the world. Specifically right now.
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A
I think that example that you gave around the decision to have families is something that I feel right now in my life. I'm 33. I'm a corporate girlie. I'm the chief commercial officer at Shameless Media. That is what I love doing. And, you know, looking. Looking down the path of what my future will be and making the decision with my husband to start a family and hopefully starting that process soon. That is the thing that I constantly feel I'm not seeing in the landscape. I'm not seeing people talk about the reality of that. So I really, really resonate with that.
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C
Yeah, I think it's really important because again, for such a long time, women have been told to wait. Right? Wait for the right time, wait until you're older. And if you're 33, I'm sure you have a. Who are 37, 38, 39, 40, who have really struggled to have kids because they've waited. Now, listen, I'm certainly not gonna sit here and advocate for teen pregnancy, but waiting until you're 38 years old equally isn't probably a very good plan. And so I think trying to think about this perfect time, the reality is that your life has seasons, right? There's seasons where you need to put the pedal to the metal and you need to put your career first, and there are seasons where you need to make space for the things that you want in your future. And so all I'm saying in. And especially in this book that I've written, start with Yourself. The reason it starts with vision and not with how to build a brand in a business is because holding a vision for yourself is one of the most important things that you can do. And that is the different. Like, it's not about, you know, creating a vision board or manifestation. That is, what is it that I want in my life that I am willing to sacrifice for? And then being really skilled and really strategic about how you move forward and how you shape your life. And so that's what I'm really talking about. If having kids is important to you, great. But then, then you got to make space for it and you've got to have the conversation. And you can't imagine it's something that's going to come easy to you in your late 30s or early 40s. Because newsflash, it won't.
- [14:31]
A
Speaking of your book, I had the pleasure of having an early coffee to prepare for this interview and I found myself highlighting almost the whole book, to be honest.
- [14:41]
C
I love you for that. I love you for that.
- [14:43]
A
It was, honestly, it was, it was really validating. And that might sound a bit arrogant. I was like, oh, I have the same thoughts as Emma Green, but there were so many moments where I did catch myself nodding. I'm highlighting things in yellow. I want to talk about one part of the book that that happened. So the commentary specifically was around founders building in public and relying on them being front facing. Can you share with our listeners why you think that can sometimes be a mistake?
- [15:10]
C
Yeah, because I think that somehow we've conflated this idea of fame and putting ourselves front and center of our brands as success. And I will tell you that there is a period and the reason that you think that you've seen me a lot in the last couple of years is because for the last eight years, I have been behind the scenes doing the grind. And there are no cameras in the factory or at the vendors or behind my desk. And the reality is that it takes those two pieces, right? There's a time to be front and center and there's a time to be more behind the scenes. And I think that what we've done specifically for women is try like kind of conflate marketing the thing as the thing, right? It's like if you spend 95% of your time on marketing and social, you will be missing logistics and distribution and finances. And the things that make a business are the less sexy things. And so I, I really want to get away from what I think is happening in the culture right now, which is much more around this idea of like, almost like you can listen your way to success, right? It's like that never ever happens. It's like you have to really, we have to be really honest about what success comes from. And ambition has to find you or it has to meet you working. And there is no, there is no shortcut, right? There's just like, there's a reality of what it takes to be successful. And kind of watching successful people isn't the same as being one. You cannot listen your way to the top. It's like you cannot think that you can listen to a bunch of experts. And my kind of idea of what we're seeing in the culture, this idea idea of overnight success, feels like we've set a lot of people up to fail, right? It's, I've lived it. I've worked in corporate, I've worked as a consultant. I've started really big businesses that worked. I've smart started small ones that failed. I've started medium sized businesses that I'm still trying to figure out. And they all have one thing in common, right. There's nothing to it. But to do it, you cannot be big in business. Theoretically, you've got to work your way up, you have to start from the bottom, you've got to put in the hours, you got to do some kind of shit that you hate doing to get somewhere that you love. And all those steps are totally necess. And so I think when we think about what it takes to actually be successful, we have to be honest about the things that are harder to do and perhaps come less naturally and how we ought to train ourselves into being more comfortable to do those things than the stuff that maybe comes a little bit more easily to us.
- [17:40]
A
Why do you think it has surged as a bit of a trend on social media? The front facing founder journey. I'm taking you on the ride.
- [17:47]
C
It looks cute. It's easier to Instagram.
- [17:49]
A
Yeah.
- [17:50]
C
Let's be fair, the outfit's better on stage than perhaps it is in the office on a tough day. I really think that we're such an aesthetically driven culture that, that has a huge part to do with it.
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A
Right.
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C
And who doesn't? Like, you know, I would be a hypocrite if I sat here and said I don't love, you know, being in some of those events and talking on a panel or having a keynote. Like those things can be extremely useful to your business. And founders that have a high profile can be very, very useful to their companies, but you can't kind of Put the cart before the horse. You've got to have a great of a company and an amazing product and a great story, and you've got to deliver to customers on time, and you've got to have, like, a fully integrated thing happening before, like, the cherry on the top of the cake, which is you going out and being front and center. I think it's much more linked to, you know, the way that we want to be seen as opposed to what I think has really been important for me. It's like, I wanted to be successful. My goal was to make a lot of money and have a lifestyle, and that matched my aspiration, and that didn't kind of link back to me doing lots of things in pr.
- [19:03]
A
I love your candidness. I just have to call that out. I did also see that come through quite a lot in the book, and it's so refreshing, particularly because there aren't a lot of female voices out there at the moment who are saying what they actually think and saying it with their chest. So that was also something I really got in the book. Also a couple of swear words in there, which I did resonate with as an Aussie.
- [19:22]
C
Oh, my God. I have to tell you, when. When I read the audiobook, I couldn't believe how much I swore. And I was like, oh, my God, like, my kids are gonna read this. But, you know, so I. I write how I read. I'm super dyslexic. And so when I wrote the book, I spoke a lot into my phone and then rewrote and edited, and that's just how I speak. So I was like, you know what it is what it is. You gotta drop an F bomb. Maybe it, like, drills down the point.
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A
I'm Australian, so I'm all for an F bomb. And it also makes your personality come through as well. And it felt real. I was obviously reading it in your voice. I want to talk about, honestly, the entire chapter of leadership, but I can't, because.
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C
Let's go.
- [20:02]
A
Don't have the time. But this was the chapter that I. I think I had, like, five or so questions, and my producer, our head of podcast Lucy, was like, okay, I think we need to cut some of these down. But I am in a leadership position at Shameless Media. I have always been drawn to people who share their expertise in their experience in leadership. So in the chapter of leadership, you speak to not offering exit interviews, you said, and I'm going to quote you
- [20:26]
C
here, like, what did I say? I remember, okay, because. Because I don't Offer exit interviews and there's a really good you, you say what I say for the listener and then I'll answer you back because I. And I'll tell you why it's a heavy, heavy and big no for me.
- [20:45]
A
All right. So for our listeners, you said you're going to get the opportunity to tell me to go fuck myself at the end. Why didn't you tell six months ago? I want people to tell me the truth in the moment. So I bake this into the culture. I. Well, first of all, I want to hear the why behind that on a deeper level. And my second question is I'd love for you to share a real life example of when that's happened and that you had to take accountability and responsibility for getting something wrong.
- [21:13]
C
Yeah, absolutely. So the, the point is when you're in business and you are doing something difficult, you make mistakes constantly as a leader, right? Like that's the honest truth. Especially in this fast paced world where we're doing things often for the first time. I'm in the middle of an agentic AI E. Commerce test. What does that even mean? Like, do you know what I mean? If you asked me six months ago, I couldn't have even told you. So the chances of me getting that right, leading it right, being able to guide my team through it in a way that is convincing, compelling, and going to stack up as net positive for the company, it's very low. Right. So the type of leader that you are, do you allow mistakes? How do you embed mistake making in your business? And what kind of culture do you operate from? I. E. Are you like a blamey place that people feel like they're unable to make mistakes and they're gonna lose opportunity? Or are you actually a place that embraces mistakes and the learning that comes from it and actually embraces and you know, lifts up the people that go, do you know what? I like this thing happened, I messed it up, here's what went wrong, I've diagnosed this and here's how we need to do it. I for a fact that it's better to have those people in the business. So the entirety of the way that I operate is to consistently show up with my mistakes. Right? Because as the leader, if you operate from a place of like empathy and transparency, you will encourage those behaviors in anyone around you. But it starts from you, right? It really does start with yourself because you have to show that in order to give other people the opportunity and the power to do it. So that's the first thing to say. On the exit interview thing, specifically what it means, you know, and honestly, in England, I don't know, 10 years ago when I had a company here, we never did exit interviews because the way that we worked was in, you know, and you know how it works today. You're constantly, you know, in some type of assessment cycle with people. But I am an in the moment person, meaning I am not waiting until your quarterly or half yearly review and nor am I waiting for you to finish your employment with me to tell me how God awful it's been. And so if you institute that as the way of doing business, people are gonna save themselves. I'm like, in the moment. I don't have time. Like, we need to move on. I need to be at the end of that meeting. I need the feedback to come in the moment and I need to be able to give you feedback in the moment for us to have a relationship that is living, breathing, growing and going forward and is productive. Because at the end of the day, we're talking about business here. This isn't about your romantic relationships and finding the right time to have a difficult conversation with your significant other. This is business. We have an enterprise mentality. What's best for the company is what's best for the, for the employer, employee relationship. And that has a sense of immediacy to it. So, yes, I'm not going to sit and wait for you to, you know, save up all the things that you need to tell me, but am I open to feedback and to criticism? I think that that is just a part of the way that I work, but it's. It happens in the moment, definitely.
- [24:18]
A
Can you give me a real life example of when you have been faced with a situation where you've had to put your hand up and go, oh, I need to be accountable and take responsibility.
- [24:27]
C
It happens. Honestly, it happens so often. What is a good. I'm trying to think of a good example of a time that I've had to do it. I mean, it honestly just happens all the time. I make mistakes. Like, for example, it can happen on a product. You know, it's like I can decide, oh, I remember doing like a giant problem for good American. You remember when, you know, everything was super stretch for so long and then all the girls started wearing that rigid, you know, vintage, vintage style denim. So I transferred everything. I was like, okay, guys, like, we're gonna be like the non stretch company now. Well, of course, like with a curvy customer, that's really difficult, but that like, those decisions can cost you Millions and millions of dollars. They take a lot of time because a design team is gonna need to change everything they do. But when it's, like, from the top, when it's something that you're like, we're going this way, and you reorientate the whole company and you change the way that you shoot the change the way you're developing, you're changing the way that you're designing, you're changing your language and your copy and your emails and the. It becomes a monumental mistake. But, like, that would. If I wasn't making mistakes like that, I wouldn't be in it, and I wouldn't have any upside. And so for me, again, it's not about torturing yourself also. And I just want to reposition again the way to think about mistakes, because the truth is, and I talk about this a lot in the book, one of the things that we have to do is separate, like, making a mistake in business and then putting that on ourselves. I don't sit here and go, oh, my God, I'm a terrible person. I made a mistake. I'm like, this thing happened in business, and I'm moving on from it. I'm gonna take my learning and move on. I'm not a terrible person. I made a terrible decision. Right? And I think too often we can internalize that and make it all about ourselves and a bigger existential thing. Guess what? When you're making a lot of decisions, you're gonna make good ones, you're gonna make bad ones. You have to make a decision and move on. And I do that every day. And that's why I struggle. You a big mistake. Because I just think, I make one every day. I'm going to make one today. I'm just waiting for it. It's early.
- [26:33]
A
It's only 8am Guys, getting ready in the morning does not have to take forever. And I have the ultimate beauty hack for looking fresh without having to do full glam. Introducing Merit, a minimalist beauty brand creating elevated makeup and skincare designed to help you feel put together in minutes. At the heart of it is the minimal. You guys know I love this product because it delivers a polished, natural complexion in just minutes. It's not a foundation or a concealer, but it actually replaces both. Streamlining your routine while still giving you a smooth, natural finish that feels effortless. Because when less time is spent on complicated routines, there's much more time to focus on everything else the day demands. Right now, Merit Beauty is offering their signature makeup bag with your first order at Merit beauty head to merit beauty.com to find your new favorite products. And thank you so much to Merit for making this episode of Stylish possible. One of my favorite episodes of Aspire was How to Speak so People Will Listen with communication expert Jefferson Fisher.
- [27:35]
C
Oh, my God, I love Jefferson Fisher.
- [27:37]
A
I think I sent that. I actually sent it to most the girls in my team and so many of my friends because there were so many pearls of wisdom in that. That episode. It's been an absolute game changer in helping me be a better communicator, not just in the workplace, but also in my relationship. And I love that the episode focused on both of those areas. What other episodes would you recommend to our listeners that are focused on people in management and leadership positions?
- [28:06]
C
You know, I have to tell you, I thought the episode I did with my husband was pretty epic because we live and work together and we're both leaders, but we both have a very different style. And it made me laugh, like, listening back to it, because I'm so aware, like, you know, we've worked together 20 years now, since before we even got married. But it was so clear that, like, you're one type of leader or another, and both things can be fine. And so that's why I think it's so interesting on Aspire that I bring in very different examples of leadership. Like, you can watch that episode that we did with Melody Hobson and see somebody that is such a specialist in a specific vertical. It's like, what she doesn't know about financial and like, money management isn't worth knowing. And then you can speak to somebody like, you know, I don't know, you could speak to somebody like, I'm trying to think of a good example, like Dr. Judith Joseph, who is really coming at business from more of a spiritual point of view and get a totally different point of view. And then you speak to somebody like Mark Cuban. And Mark, again, you know, he's a guy who's been in business since the early 80s, and so he has a very, very different way of at problems and solving problems. And so what I'm trying to do on the podcast is really give examples of different ways to be successful and different ideas of what it means to actually, like, come into the room and own what it is that you do. You stand for. You're trying to give. And there is no one way. You know, it's like, I think that the people that are the most successful are the ones that constantly iterate. And there is this idea of, like, the. I love that Every thing that you do should change on the way up. And when you're in a business or in a career, you should be really, really willing to be in this constant learning mode and always changing what it is that you do and you stand for. The only thing that stays the same is like your principles, right? So your vision for yourself or your principle for the company and then everything else needs to shift. And I think that the best companies do that uniquely well.
- [30:16]
A
Would you say the type of content that you're putting out and the diversification of it, is that reflective of how you consume content about leadership and about business, or do you gravitate more towards like minded people?
- [30:29]
C
No, I think that I purposely try to put people on that are a little bit different from me, actually. And it's been a mixture. You know, I think in the beginning of the podcast it was very much about like, who do I admire and who have I learned the most from. And I think as we've gone on, I'm really trying to get different points of view in there and also challenge myself.
- [30:47]
A
Right.
- [30:48]
C
I've got to sit through that, you know, interview. I want to be interested too. And also I want to learn. And I think the most important thing aspire for Emma Greed. And this book was supposed to be about learning, right? It's like we're all bombarded with information and what I wanted is that you get this book and you are going to have something to take away from it. There's a section in the back that is just for you to write notes in the same way that you were highlighting everything. If I take half an hour of your time, I want you to get something out of it. And so I think that very purposefully by both the book and the podcast are done in a way where it's like you're going to feed yourself, you're going to learn something and it should be something that's applicable to your life like immediately. Right? You're going to read that thing, have a go at it, do it the next day.
- [31:33]
A
This is why I think our, a lot of our listeners will love your book. Because part of my role is also to oversee all of the marketing insights and really understand why are people listening to stylish and broadly speaking, why are they coming to change shameless media to consume our content. And one of the key themes I see pop out all the time, both anecdotally and also in the numbers, is that people are coming to us to learn something. Some of our content might be entertainment and escape, but specifically stylish they are coming to us to learn, to grow. And it's for personal reasons, not so much as a way to start a conversation with someone. I'll be like, I heard this and that. They're actually keeping it for themselves and they're really trying to, to, you know, focus on that self improvement and bettering themselves. So I think there is so much our listeners can take from your book on page 240. I absolutely love this quote you said, we all need to get comfortable with this reality. If you're going to be a good, effective leader, you will piss people off. Guys, a common theme is that I like the ones where you're swearing,
- [32:33]
C
yes, you do. This is more about you than me.
- [32:36]
A
It does, it does. And you went on to say, in fact, you can't be a people pleaser and a good leader. The two are mean, mutually exclusive. Can you elaborate on this?
- [32:44]
C
Yeah. And listen, I, I think it's really difficult because I understand the need to people please. And I also understand that perhaps early in your career you can even equate people pleasing with getting ahead, right? You're like, if I can be the most liked, if I can be the least problematic, then I'm going to get ahead. And actually what I found in my career. And again, I'm trying to come at it from a place of what's actually happened in my career. Like what with the benefit of hindsight and being able to look back, what were the unlocks, what were the things that actually enabled me to move forward? And it was as soon as I started having an opinion and sometimes having a contrary opinion that you become super valuable. And so I think when we are agreeable and when we kind of go out of our way to kind of err on the side of caution and not stick out, like, what inevitably happens is that you blend in. And so being able to have a very distinct opinion, being able to be somebody that kind of sees things a little bit differently, often is more about you kind of like having your own distinct point of view and being able to stick to that. And so I think what happens to women when we try to overly please people we're around is we are, are like diminishing ourselves and our own thoughts. We're basically saying like, our value is less than what it, the, the reality of it is, right? Because we're just gonna fit into this situation. And I actually think that what's so amazing about women in leadership is that we have a different way of seeing things. So you have to bring your full self into the room, into the conversation, into the meeting, into the pitch, into whatever it is. And you can't do that by being agreeable. You have to do that by coming with your full experience, your full point of view, your empathy, your way of doing business. And I think that that is something that we could all do so much more of.
- [34:42]
A
I would love to move on to future trends and predictions. We do love a prediction at Stylish. You obviously have a wealth of experience in identifying industry trends. So I'd love to know what you think about the evolution of the influencer brand.
- [34:57]
C
Yeah, I mean, we're in a really interesting place, right? And I think that with the, where we are with AI right now, one of the kind of defendable things is personal brand. And it is, you know, when you think about having a very kind of distinct audience, community, reason for existing and being, that becomes ever more important. But I mean, having distinction, not following the pack. And I think that's where we're gonna start to see the separation, what an influencer is, who can build a business versus what's in the pack. And I think the more honest. And when I say that, I don't mean those that are there for clickbait. Right. Doing crazy stuff just to kind of like trick an algorithm just to kind of get numbers. Those who genuinely stand for something have a point of difference and real distinction will win. So I still, I'd still bet on the influence influencer brand space as a growth space, but I think it's going to have to be sort of reimagined around things that are much more, to use the really overused phrase, authentic in the realist way as opposed to like, you know, following the herd. Like, would I get behind an influencer backed beauty business right now? Not unless it had real innovation, real distinction, real differentiation in the way that it came to market. No, no. But do I still think there's space for influencers to be successful with their own brands? Absolutely, yes.
- [36:28]
A
What brands do you think are really cutting through right now?
- [36:31]
C
It's a great question actually. You know, I'm kind of feeling a lot of these kind of brands. In the health and wellness space. There's a brand that I use all the time that's called Amra and it's like a Clustrum brand. And I feel like anything that is like super convenient, extremely kind of like forward thinking. In the health space, there's another one called Array, that's like a female founder and it's like a electrolyte that has 15 grams of protein. It's like I use it every single day because it's like I get migraines. I need an electrolyte. I love to add to my protein count for the day. It tastes lovely. You know, it's just like one of those things that I think is, has convenience and health and a proposition. You know, it's like the, and and, and brand. So I'm kind of bullish in that health convenience space where I think that there's no, no shortcuts taken on like the, the kind of hierarchy of ingredients and the, and the kind of goodness of the overall thing. Those are the brands that I'm like most excited about.
- [37:35]
A
You predominantly play in the fashion space. Would you ever be interested in moving into one of those spaces, like wellness?
- [37:42]
C
You know, I invest a lot outside of the fashion space so I tend to put the money I make from fashion into other stuff that I probably couldn't start myself.
- [37:52]
A
Yeah, that's good though. I also like your point around talking to the high quality of the product. You always come back to product in the book as well and the importance of having a good product always.
- [38:02]
C
Because if you don't have product, you don't have anything, you know, and you can. What? I know because, you know, I'm old. I am like, you know, it's like I've been doing this for a long time. Everything ebbs and flows, right. It's like any arbitrage that we used to see, you know, back when it was called Facebook, not Meta, you know, you could plow dollars into that platform and see the return. And then it moved Instagram and then it moved to TikTok and now we have a million different platforms. Those things ebb and flow. There are all of these tricks and the tricks last for a second. But product endures, marketing doesn't. And so when you have something incredible that customers will buy and there's a value proposition there and they'll tell your friend that safeguards you from any of the trends. And I've been through, you know, like the, the crash of 2008 Covid. It's like if you have a great product, then that will always take you through an intense and kind of unimaginable marketing doesn't. It's short lived.
- [38:57]
A
Speaking of good product, Good American served a huge gap in the market. I would love to know what's next for the brand.
- [39:04]
C
Oh, you know, I have to tell you, it's so funny to be eight years into a brand because inevitably you have moments where you are hot and you have moments where you're not. And Good American is actually in the middle of almost, I would say, like its third cycle right now, which is really interesting because denim cycles are slow.
- [39:23]
A
Right.
- [39:23]
C
It's like you have like 10 year trends. And we are about to completely relaunched the brand in September. I was just in New York for like the reveal of the new collection to the press and it actually makes my heart so happy that you can have something that really has this much longevity in a time when kind of businesses go up and down. If you look at a mall now versus 10 years ago, it's unimaginable. Right. It's like none of the stores that were there are there anymore. There's like a couple of sources like, you know, a Levi and a Gap and everything else is kind of new. And so I'm proud of Good American. We continue to open stores and I'll be very, very excited to unveil this kind of like new look, new feel, new brand in September. But what is important is that the principles of the brand will never change. Right. We're always exactly what we launched, exactly what we started with. But you've got to know when you know the jig is up and it's time to reiterate and kind of like move things forward for a new customer.
- [40:23]
A
I am going to push here with a bit of a. Oh, I don't. I don't think it's a setup, but I think this is one of the more pokey questions. I have a pokey question.
- [40:33]
C
Thanks for. Thanks for giving me the heads up that you've got a pokey question so I can poke you back.
- [40:37]
A
I'm telling you, that episode I really took on board the feedback of set the conversation up before you have it. That's what I did there.
- [40:44]
C
I love it.
- [40:45]
A
So you mentioned in the book challenging the trope of hashtag women helping women. And that was something that really piqued my interest whilst reading the book. I'd love for you to share with our listeners why you think it is important, particularly in the workplace, that I
- [40:58]
C
think there's a lot of performative women supporting women.
- [41:01]
A
Yes.
- [41:01]
C
Yeah. So I think that there is. Right. Like, I think that the realities are. And there's a reason for this. There has been such a scarcity of opportunity for women in the workplace that the kind of default notion has become. If she's getting something over there, it's taking away from me. I think that we're part largely past that point right now. There's still so much of the Behavior that came from that moment that exists in the culture and in the workplace at large. So this idea that if somebody is getting a big pay rise, it's taking away from me. If a woman is given an opportunity over there, that's something that I could have had. And actually what I want to do is women are best when they're in community. And I don't just mean like when they're hanging out together. It's like when we're sharing information, but we don't share the right information. I will know everything. I can tell you what, like, you know, wax my friend has on, like, you know, her lady part parts, but yet maybe not exactly what, you know, salary she's getting. And what we need to do is share the right information. The right information to be sharing is how much you're getting paid, how much you're paying for X, Y and Z over there. If you need a lawyer, who is the lawyer? If you started a business, how you set things up and what mistakes you made. It's like we need to actually share the information that is pivotal and important and not the stuff. I'm not saying not the stuff that's like frivolous. Cause that's fun and that's gossipy and we always need that. But if you're really gonna support women, that is about sharing of information that is gonna help that woman move forward. And so what I'm talking about is not gatekeeping. And that can often be like a default of ours because we're so concerned with this idea of scarcity. I don't like performative. Like, you know, it's like you're going to post about someone or sit next to someone and take a picture with them at dinner, but you wouldn't give them the information that's helped you move on forward.
- [42:53]
A
I want to move on to some tips and tricks that I think would be really helpful for our listeners because a lot of them do come to stylish as well for career advice. And in the book, there was a huge focus on mentorship. And I really liked this because it was challenging, this idea that you have to physically be in contact with someone for them to be a mentor.
- [43:13]
C
Totally. Because the reality is that most people don't have proximity to a mentor. And I know that because I lived it. When you're born in East London, you don't know anyone who's a business owner. You don't know anyone senior. And so I think for most people, you have to imagine your mentor. You have to force your mentor. But the good news is we're in a time when that's actually possible. Like, you can use AI you can get a picture of, you know, all of the women or people that you most admire and find the common traits and what they've done in their careers and chart their paths and read every single interview and understand the big key moments of their career and, like, mirror those for yours. Like, what you have to do is be really proactive. And I often find what. What can happen is that we live in our heads, right? It's like, I wish this thing would happen. I'm really, like, want this opportunity. It's like, you have to go out and make the opportunities. And so if you want a mentor, you might have to create one. And I found the best mentors in my career have often been sitting next to me in an office somewhere, like when I started Good American, and, you know, I had this woman that had kind of come in to be the head of production for Denim. I learned everything, everything from Melissa Anderson. When Skim started, the employee number one was a woman called Lindsey Forley. I learned everything from Lindsay Forley. And so, again, you wouldn't imagine that people you employ can be your mentors, but if someone knows something I don't, that's an opportunity for learning, right? And so I think trying to reconfigure who it is that you can learn from, you can learn from anyone and anything so long as you're willing to ask the right questions. But kind of waiting for some magical woman to come kind of, like, waft off the stage at Forbes and fall into your hands is a fool's errand.
- [45:03]
A
I do. I know we only have a couple of minutes left, but there are just a couple more questions I want to sneak in. Here you go, darling. What are the consistent qualities you see in the best employees?
- [45:11]
C
I think the first one would be an absolute willingness to put their hand up.
- [45:19]
A
Right?
- [45:19]
C
And I mean, like, you start a job, you get a job description, you know, what department you sit in, you know, your basic remit. I am always looking for the people that will go slightly outside of that. A, because they have a better understanding of, like, the total company, and B, because it shows an aptitude to do things that they're not necessarily being told to do. And so somebody that has their hand up, I'll do that. Is the person I'm going for every single time. Also, that person that is willing to just work hard. Listen, at the end of the day, we can chalk it up to so many different things, but if you are coming in early and you're leaving a little bit later, it's very different from the person that is doing the nine to five that they're chalked up to for. It's just that simple, right? If you're showing that there is a willingness to be available and to take things on, like, what's better than that?
- [46:14]
A
My last question, and again, I'm going
- [46:16]
C
to quote you here.
- [46:18]
A
This is focused on mindset prioritization, page 267. So we're getting towards the back end of the book. You said there's a fair amount of risk that comes to any woman who is visible. You don't need me to tell you that we see takedowns every day. Some seem to be based on sound reasoning. Elizabeth Holmes comes to mind, others much less so. I get asked about this a lot in part because there's an expectation that I must be holding my breath waiting for the guillotine to come for my head. I'm not. Not because I don't think it won't happen, but because if it does, so be it. I don't really care. I loved this and I really, really want to pick your brain. I on how did you get to this level of mental strength?
- [46:56]
C
I think it's because so much crap has happened to me and I'm still here. And the truth is that, you know, you can be born naturally tough or resilient or you can grow that as a muscle. And I think that I have some combination of both. I think that when you think about the traits that you will need between confidence and resilience, resilience and kind of like a high self worth, like high self value, those are things that you train and the only way they come to you is by things not working out. And so every time something doesn't work out for me, I'm like, that's okay. Because I'm like growing this new piece of me that is going to be useful when it does work out. Like you need all that bad stuff. You need to be operating on the edges of what your comfort zone is, on the edges of the stuff that makes you scared because that actually builds your confidence. You don't wake up going, oh my God, I'm feeling so confident today. You wake up going, I've been through that shit before. I've done it. This thing didn't work out for me before and I'm still alive and I'm still breathing and I'm still okay and I still get another chance. And so it's with all of that knowledge and that understanding that you get more confident. And I just have come to expect that things will not always turn out all right for me. And that's okay, too, because what you have to understand is no one's watching you like, you're watching you. Like, literally no one. You feel. You see everything. You know, every little mistake. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, nobody. Nobody else sees it. Nobody else cares as much. And so I think with that in my head and with that as a reality of my working life, I've just got a bit stronger and I think
- [48:44]
A
we can leave it there. Honestly, there isn't a better place. Emma, thank you so much. I cannot express how grateful I am to sit here in front of you on a screen and be able to pick your brain. This has meant so much to me and I know it will mean so much to our listeners. Thank you so much for your time.
- [48:58]
C
Thank you for your wonderful questions. It's so lovely to speak to you and I really appreciate that you've read the book and that you ask such thoughtful questions. It makes all the difference. Thank you. You.
- [49:10]
B
Honestly, Ray, every expectation I had of her was surpassed and the bar was very high because of everything I've read, interacted with and seen. Also shout out to you, my girl, Riri. That is a fabulous interview. Well done.
- [49:22]
A
Thank you. That means a lot to me and
- [49:24]
B
I know you were nervous, so very well done on sounding very cool, calm and collected.
- [49:28]
A
Obviously, a lot of the conversation we had centered around the book. We will link to that in the show notes so that if you guys to want wanted to purchase, you can.
- [49:35]
B
Well, look, Ray, we'll have to put some new faces on the vision board because it looks like it has been working. How do I top that? I don't know. I've got some names I think we could sit alongside, but let's maybe just keep them as internal vision boards because we never said this one out loud. As always, we want to say a big thank you to our production team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt, and our senior podcast producer, Kate Emma Burke. We'll be right back in the studio with Joe on on Wednesday. Bye for now.
- [50:01]
C
Bye, guys.
- [50:12]
A
This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land.
- [50:15]
C
Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.
- [50:18]
B
Very exciting news. Australian Fashion Week is back this May and Stylish is on board as an official media partner for 2020 26. From the 11th to the 15th, Sydney's MCA will come to life as a central hub and it's shaping up to be something really special. Led by the Australian Fashion Council, this new chapter is all about bringing industry and audiences together while spotlighting the incredible talent that's coming out of Australia right now. From emerging talent to the designers we already know and love, it's more than just shows, its access, its energy. And it's a front row seat to where fashion is heading next. Trust me, you're going to want to be in the room. Hit the link in our show notes to find out more. You can grab a ticket for a show or register for our very own stylish panel event. We absolutely cannot wait to see you there.