Rhiannon Joyce (1:12)

Oh, the Merit Beauty stick is very good.

Naima Fatima (1:14)

Yeah, it is very good, but wow.

Joanna Fleming (1:16)

Okay, so she's just naturally beautiful. All right, I don't know how to

Naima Fatima (1:21)

respond to that, guys, but thank you. Thank you.

Joanna Fleming (1:24)

Well, I have a little update for you from a previous episode from a couple of weeks ago. So our listeners might remember, we touched on the Jo Malone London situation. So to recap for those that didn't hear it, Estee Lauder companies was taking legal action against Jo Malone's cba. So Jo Malone, the person at the time that we recorded that episode, Jo Malone herself, hadn't responded to that legal action and that news that was announced. But the other day, maybe a couple of days ago, she posted a statement via Instagram, which Now has almost 2 million views. And in that video, she said that she's very surprised and sad and. And that they've gone above and beyond to ensure that the Zara fragrances weren't associated with Jo Malone London. Like, they did all the things that they thought they were meant to do, essentially. And I touched on in that episode that when we were arranging Jo Loves at Adore Beauty, that it was very specifically stipulated. You had to say, Jo Malone, cba. Anyway, so she said, like, why now, after seven years of partnering with Zara, have Estee Lauder companies decided to bring this to court? Essentially, she said that she's going to defend her position in court, but she hopes that sense will prevail and that they'll be able to find a way to work in the same market. So, yeah, we'll see what happens there. But I just thought I'd give you a little update because we did say we'd stay across it, so thought it was worth flagging.

Rhiannon Joyce (2:41)

It's an interesting one. We did go into depth about everything that was going on in our previous episode, but for it to be seven years after and it then be a problem is really interesting.

Joanna Fleming (2:52)

I had assumed at the time that there'd been a packaging change. I was like, oh, they must have updated the packaging and the wording. And that's where Estee Lauder have clocked it and been like, actually, no, that's not going to work for us. But the fact that she didn't flag that in her response makes me think, oh, it's actually been the same for seven years.

Rhiannon Joyce (3:07)

Yeah, it's been long standing.

Joanna Fleming (3:08)

Yeah. And they've just suddenly gone. Nah.

Rhiannon Joyce (3:11)

Yeah, it's bizarre.

Naima Fatima (3:13)

Maybe it was just at the bottom of someone's to do list.

Rhiannon Joyce (3:16)

Finally got to it.

Naima Fatima (3:17)

Got to it.

Rhiannon Joyce (3:19)

Thanks for the update, Jo. All right, guys, today we're discussing all things Coachella. We have to. We have to talk about Coachella. It's absolutely dominating.

Joanna Fleming (3:26)

Baby.

Rhiannon Joyce (3:27)

Be Bochella or Sabrina, Whatever side you sit on, the outfits, the activation, the billboards, we've got to get through when it comes to the Coachella content. And then we're going to be chatting about Anna Wintour and Meryl Streep's Vogue cover. When I logged on Instagram and this went live, it was literally every second story reshared on my feed. It was everywhere. We even shared it on the stylish socials.

Naima Fatima (3:50)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (3:51)

It's more than a cover, though.

Joanna Fleming (3:52)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (3:52)

There's a bit to get to when it comes to how it actually came about and what it actually means, and we're going to deepen that a bit later. But first, guys, time for the swap. Who's going first?

Joanna Fleming (4:01)

Well, you're sitting in Annika's seat, so, yeah, as the original cast member, I'm gonna say you go first.

Rhiannon Joyce (4:09)

Okay. Mine is a podcast episode. You guys know I adore Emma Grade and I love her podcast, Aspire. I did recently listen to the episode that featured Bobby Brown, so kind of similar vein to the conversations we were having around Jo Malone. Bobby Brown actually sold her name rights and her namesake brand to. To Estee Lauder for. I can't even remember what it was sold for, but I think it was over $1 billion valuation at the time. So this episode is really good because Bobby actually goes into detail about what actually happened at Estee Lauder. She had a non compete in place. Then she went and started Jones Road, which is also on its way to be a billion dollar brand. She started at 63 and I will say in this episode, she dishes some major T. She doesn't name names, but she goes into some pretty decent detail around the relationship breakdown.

Joanna Fleming (4:57)

Okay.

Rhiannon Joyce (4:58)

How she kind of came out of that. Also, guys, she's just a gritty, scrappy woman.

Naima Fatima (5:03)

Yeah.

Joanna Fleming (5:03)

So the NDA is expired as well.

Rhiannon Joyce (5:06)

Definitely expired. But the way she talks about how she builds is really interesting and really refreshing, particularly for someone at her age who is has such a wealth of experience. I will say she doesn't really on Estee Lauder Company.

Joanna Fleming (5:19)

Okay.

Rhiannon Joyce (5:19)

She talks a lot about, like, what she actually learned under that umbrella of like such a big brand, even though she was the face of it. She says she learned so much. But yeah, it's one of the best episodes I've listened to for a while. But I just really love that she's still a scrappy person when it comes to business and how she gets shit done worth a listen and to do it twice.

Joanna Fleming (5:38)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (5:38)

Crazy.

Naima Fatima (5:39)

Yeah. So crazy.

Rhiannon Joyce (5:40)

Yeah. Who's going next?

Joanna Fleming (5:41)

Now we're all looking nine. Go on.

Naima Fatima (5:43)

Okay. I've got a Coachella themed swap. I watched the Cat's Eye livestream on Saturday. This was most of my weekend, to be perfectly honest with you. I was on YouTube, I was watching all the sets and I watched the Cat's Eye one. If anyone doesn't know, they are a girl group and they came out of the Netflix TV show Dream Academy and they like essentially built this girl group in like an audition round and they like filmed the whole thing.

Rhiannon Joyce (6:10)

What's the original show that's like that? It's like, yeah, X Factor.

Naima Fatima (6:14)

Yeah. It's like, yeah, this is like a new round.

Rhiannon Joyce (6:16)

X Factor, Netflix version.

Naima Fatima (6:18)

Yeah. But what they've put in is like the principles of like K Pop. So they've like, they're fully trained in like dance singing. Like, the girls in it are incredible. The reason I wanted to talk about Lara Raj, who's one of the members, is because she is half Indian, half Sri Lankan and she is just so cool. Like, she is a pop star through and through. After I watched this set, I was on her Instagram and I was just like, every outfit, every post she makes, I was like, you are just like the embodiment of a pop star. And I don't know if I've really seen that from a lot of brown girls. So I was like, this is so cool. I really, like. I was looking at how she did her makeup, and I was like, oh, I want to do my makeup like that now. But, yes, all of her outfits, her makeup, she's just.

Rhiannon Joyce (7:04)

She's cool. She's just cool. I think they're all really cool. That song is so catchy. I can't even remember what it's called. It's like, bap, bap, bap.

Joanna Fleming (7:13)

It went. We needed Maddie here.

Rhiannon Joyce (7:16)

I know, but it's just like, everyone jumping up and down. It's, like, very boppy.

Naima Fatima (7:21)

They're just. I'm like, how are you dancing so much and singing? It's so impressive, honestly.

Joanna Fleming (7:26)

The cardio fitness is something else.

Rhiannon Joyce (7:28)

They were featured a lot in best dress list that I looked at on Vogue and a few of the websites for the Coachella weekend. They've got some serious style, and I feel that they're on a really, really strong trajectory of fame. Joe.

Joanna Fleming (7:41)

My swap is probably one of the most random ones I've ever done, but it's actually a card game. I've been very into board games of late because I've been trying to stay off my pH, so I've been very into things that, like, keep me away from my phone, being on social media. So Adrian bought a version of Uno that I wasn't about at the time. I was like, why couldn't you just buy the regular version? You always have to do something different. Like, why did you buy Uno Flip?

Rhiannon Joyce (8:02)

I didn't even know you could buy other versions.

Joanna Fleming (8:04)

Yeah, so there are other versions of it. There's a version called Uno Flip, and I am a convert.

Naima Fatima (8:09)

It is so good. I back at 100%.

Joanna Fleming (8:11)

I did not expect anyone in the

Naima Fatima (8:13)

room to have played it. Love Uno Flip.

Rhiannon Joyce (8:15)

I literally have no idea what it is. Tell me what it is.

Joanna Fleming (8:18)

Okay, so Uno Flip is like regular Uno on one side, and then the other side of the cards is like a completely different game. So you get a whole different set of colors, and there's, like, also different prompts as well. So you have a whole different set of moves that you can do.

Rhiannon Joyce (8:32)

And I knew rules and.

Joanna Fleming (8:33)

Well, kind of.

Naima Fatima (8:34)

Yeah.

Joanna Fleming (8:35)

So you could be playing the regular game, and then you have a flip card and someone can go flip, and then you turn, like we say in my family, flippy, whippy. And then you turn it over. You turn it over, and then you got a whole new set of cards. So you could think you're winning and be like, oh, I've got the best cards. And then someone pulls a flippy with me Spanner.

Rhiannon Joyce (8:50)

Yeah.

Joanna Fleming (8:51)

And so you're basically starting again. And I think it just makes the game so much more exciting. And you can just go for longer, I feel.

Rhiannon Joyce (8:58)

Keeps everyone on edge.

Joanna Fleming (8:59)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (8:59)

I would hate that because if I was winning and then I got a flippy with you.

Naima Fatima (9:03)

Yeah, that's the good.

Joanna Fleming (9:05)

Really throws this pattern. Yeah.

Naima Fatima (9:07)

Because then you might be down and then you're like, no, I'm back up.

Joanna Fleming (9:10)

Oh, no. I'm so happy that you've played it before.

Naima Fatima (9:13)

I take it to the pub. I love taking it with my friends. Play the other one. That's very, very good. Is Monopoly. Deal.

Joanna Fleming (9:21)

Okay. So fun fact, I've never played Monopoly and Adrian's just bought it so that I can learn how to play Monopoly.

Naima Fatima (9:27)

Deal is easier because it's a card version.

Joanna Fleming (9:29)

Okay.

Naima Fatima (9:29)

So you don't have to pull out like a whole board game situation. So it's good for when you're like, traveling with friends or like, you know, then you can just have it in your bag. Pull it out.

Joanna Fleming (9:37)

Right. Oh, here we go. Well, that might be a future swap.

Rhiannon Joyce (9:39)

I'm a Cluedo gal, so when they bring out a card version of Cluedo, let me know. Flip.

Joanna Fleming (9:44)

Yep. Noted. We also have a remote swap from Annika today too. So we're going to play that now.

Annika (9:50)

Something came saying which was very big on the runways was the pillbox hats trend. Now, I honestly thought at the spring racing carnival last year we would have seen so many more outfits finished with the little pillbox hats, but there weren't actually that many. So I'm anticipating we're going to see more coming into Australian shores soon. Especially thinking about how this trend originated from the 19th century as military headgear and then Jackie Kennedy made them super famous in the 60s as well. I think the trend was perceived once quite modest, but now it's an absolute trend because it's elegant, simple and incredibly chic.

Rhiannon Joyce (10:24)

I love this swap because I'm noticing this a lot in Bridal fashion Week.

Joanna Fleming (10:29)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (10:30)

Back of New York Bridal week.

Joanna Fleming (10:31)

Yeah.

Naima Fatima (10:32)

That's so chic.

Rhiannon Joyce (10:33)

Yeah. I'm noticing it being like the go to headpiece now in replacement of a veil. So many girls on the Runway were rocking the little pillbox hat.

Joanna Fleming (10:41)

Yes. I also saw Magnolia Ave release one recently. Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (10:45)

So it's probably playing out in the bridal space. I haven't seen much in the autumn. Winter.

Naima Fatima (10:50)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (10:50)

Everything that's coming out Thus far I haven't really seen it, but yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that trickles through.

Naima Fatima (10:55)

So cool for a hens.

Rhiannon Joyce (10:56)

Yeah.

Naima Fatima (10:57)

Yes. Like with a suit. Anyway, I'm going into it. That's very Jackie Kennedy.

Rhiannon Joyce (11:01)

Very Jackie Kennedy.

Joanna Fleming (11:03)

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Rhiannon Joyce (12:15)

Guys, I feel like everyone has seen it. Coachella obviously kicked off first weekend. Major headlines. Justin Bieber, Sabrina Carpenter, so many more, but I feel those are the two that absolutely dominated the feed. I would say Coachella has become known as like the it place to be seen if you're an influencer. I saw a few tiktoks actually labeling it the Influencer Olympics, so people getting really creative with that. It's really focusing on the aspiring content creators both in the lead up to it and over the weekend. I saw a lot of influences from Australia also traveling over this year. I feel like in the last two or three years there's been a bit more of that. Usually it's been predominantly US focused, but I'm seeing people from all over the world travel. Something I also noticed last week in the lead up to Coachella though, that I found really interesting. And I want to talk about particularly in the state. So this feels more localized in the US than what it does here. So maybe this is like very niche to my algorithm and. But a lot of micro influencers were actually pitching to brands to take them to Coachella. So they were doing the full PowerPoint presentation and all about why they should be there. I loved it.

Naima Fatima (13:19)

Same.

Rhiannon Joyce (13:19)

I thought it was so cute. Especially because it was coming from people who probably aren't on the top of the radar when it comes to, you know, these brand activations in these huge, huge brands activating at Coachella who are taking more established influences. I'm like, shoot your shot.

Naima Fatima (13:35)

Yeah, 100% shoot your shot. I think it's so cool because a lot of the time I guess brands look at ROI of like a really big influencer because they've got more followers, but when it's a micro influencer, their community gets behind them in a way that is just different. Like I actually think it would be really smart for brands to take micro influencers because not only would their community get behind it, sometimes like all of TikTok gets behind it because they're just so excited for the small guy. I actually think it would be a really good branding moment.

Joanna Fleming (14:05)

Did we see any that did a pitch that actually ended up going?

Rhiannon Joyce (14:08)

I saw one girl who did a pitch. She was already attending, so had tickets, but she didn't have any accommodation lined up.

Joanna Fleming (14:13)

Right.

Rhiannon Joyce (14:14)

And then she ended up getting hooked up by like Hilton. So she got like a experience and everything. So that was cool. I was really happy for her. I was like, go off girl.

Naima Fatima (14:22)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (14:23)

And then she documented the whole experience. It felt really organic and to your point, everyone was really rallying behind it. Like her whole community was just so happy that she had this added experience.

Joanna Fleming (14:32)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (14:32)

But I will say majority of my feed was very much dominated by brands who were taking a lot of like larger high profile influencers. But that was, it was nice to see that creep through with my feed.

Joanna Fleming (14:44)

Yeah, well, it's like following the journey of getting there.

Rhiannon Joyce (14:47)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Naima Fatima (14:48)

Anyone who got there and it was like they shot their shot, they would have over delivered in a way. Like I think in a lot of contracts it's like specific amounts that you have to post.

Joanna Fleming (14:57)

Yeah.

Naima Fatima (14:57)

If I was going and I'd like shot my shot and it was the week before, I would be posting every

Rhiannon Joyce (15:01)

second you'd Want to be posting as well because you're just so happy, so excited to be there. But yeah, it was like a nice little thing to see. I really enjoyed it. But the main focus I really want to talk about today is the brand activations at Coachella because I would say in the last two years, this has really supercharged. It feels like it is becoming a huge commercial event in its origin. Coachella was more focused on the music and most festivals were back in the day. Now a lot of festivals are really evolving into these brand marketing moments. You know, it used to be about how do we create music experiences across different genres. Now it's very much okay, how are brands showing up in this space? Not even just at the festival itself, but on the way to the festival and in the surrounding areas. I want to start with the billboards first because more so this year than any other year, I saw a lot of brands sharing creative of the billboards that they actually purchase along the way to Coachella. But then I also saw a lot of brands hijacking these moments and using that marketing adjacent tactic and superimposing or using AI on the billboards to make it look like that they were part of the Coachella experience. What did you guys see?

Naima Fatima (16:11)

I feel like the last few years it's always been more around the artist billboards. Like, you know, it's a bit of an activity that people drive out the weekend before or like the week before and like go along the highway and like take photos of it so they can like share it beforehand. And it's like first look of the billboards. And I feel like the last few years it's always been more artist based and like the artists have really dominated that. This year I felt like my feed online was a lot of that photoshopped. You know, they weren't actually there, but

Rhiannon Joyce (16:40)

they created the illusion that they were.

Naima Fatima (16:42)

Yeah, definitely capitalized off the hype.

Joanna Fleming (16:45)

Yeah. Although they don't get the shareability of the people that are actually posting that are driving along that highway on their way to Coachella. So you get the reach of your own social media channels, but not necessarily the kind of coverage that you would want.

Rhiannon Joyce (16:58)

Okay, so there were a lot of billboards. What billboards were your favorite?

Naima Fatima (17:01)

This one's not a real one, but maybe I'll give you a real one.

Rhiannon Joyce (17:03)

Give me a real one first and

Naima Fatima (17:04)

then we'll talk about the fakies. I loved Sabrina Carpenter's. It was so her. And it was like a very specific. It showed exactly what her show was going to be. So it had like the theme of like the 1950s and she was going to be like a showgirl and like it was Hollywood and it kind of like preempted what the whole concept of her actual show was going to be. And I really liked that through line.

Rhiannon Joyce (17:29)

Do you know what's interesting? I don't know what one you're talking about. I did not see the Sabrina Carpenter one. Is that the one with Redken?

Naima Fatima (17:34)

No, sorry. This is an artist only. One artist only.

Rhiannon Joyce (17:38)

I did not see that. It's so funny how you see different things pop up because all I saw was the major laser ozempic one which you also sent Joe.

Joanna Fleming (17:46)

That's my favorite one.

Rhiannon Joyce (17:47)

Yeah.

Joanna Fleming (17:47)

Is the major laser artist one which was like imessage bubble and it said, come shake that Little Ozempic ass. 6pm Sunday at Major Laser.

Rhiannon Joyce (17:57)

Very playful, very funny.

Joanna Fleming (17:59)

Yeah. My favorite branding one was Olipop and good wipes and they did a little play on words obviously with Justin Bieber headlining. It was just in case your peaches get too dusty. And it was an ad for flushable wipes.

Naima Fatima (18:10)

I love that.

Rhiannon Joyce (18:11)

There's nothing better than a contextually relevant creative messaging on a billboard that is like Chef's kiss.

Joanna Fleming (18:17)

Yeah, I liked that.

Rhiannon Joyce (18:18)

This time of year, this ad space would be hot property. Obviously there would be allocations that are probably reserved for artists or they're getting access through the studios for those sites and the studios are probably paying the fees on those locations. But for the brand allocated sites, huge premiums would apply for this period because they know that there's a lot of shareability. They know that people are going to be taking photos of the site hoping that it's shareable on socials. Creative pressure is on.

Naima Fatima (18:44)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (18:45)

And I want to talk about the creative of an out of home billboard. And I'm going to nerd out a little bit here because out of home is my background on the record. We know from a recent study that or media actually did there is a 41% increase in ROI if the creative is really strong. So it is the backbone of out of home. If you can't get that creative right, it is not landing. And when it comes to Coachella, I feel like brands go that extra mile to make sure that there is that relevancy in terms of the connection to the desert or the connection to, you know, the shows or the people who are performing. That example you just gave, there's a likelihood that it was just like a generic ad. You just would not have remembered it because it had the contextual alignment, one, to the desert experience, experience of being at a festival. But two, also having the hook and tie to Justin Bieber makes that really memorable and makes you go, oh, that's funny.

Joanna Fleming (19:32)

Yeah. And you probably wouldn't if you hadn't worked in out of home, which refers to billboards and, you know, bus stops and things like that. You wouldn't realize that there's a massive psychological element when it comes to deciding on that creative as well. Like the colors chosen, the text chosen, the imagery chosen, how it's positioned on the billboard. You don't think of all of these things, but there really is such a huge psychological play with getting you to actually look at something and digest.

Rhiannon Joyce (19:56)

Especially with static. I feel like everything is digital and everything you're just switching off. It's really an opportunity to cut through. I absolutely love it. And I was so happy to see so many brands use it to their advantage.

Naima Fatima (20:06)

I wish with the OIC one they had said not delivered. Like, I feel like that would have really tied in the whole festival experience.

Rhiannon Joyce (20:13)

Like, the message was actually green, not

Naima Fatima (20:15)

blue, green, not delivered. Like, you know, so true.

Rhiannon Joyce (20:19)

When you got to Coachella, it was like seriously serious brand activations were rolling out.

Naima Fatima (20:25)

Every corner.

Rhiannon Joyce (20:26)

Every corner. It felt like everything was branded.

Joanna Fleming (20:29)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (20:29)

What were the branded activations that really stood out to you guys?

Naima Fatima (20:32)

I really liked the Gap hoodie house.

Joanna Fleming (20:35)

I saw this. That was clever. Yeah.

Naima Fatima (20:37)

So I think this really played into, like, the human experience of going to a festival. And, like, what I know is that Coachella is boiling hot during the day, but apparently freezing at night. Like, really, really, really cold. Because it's a desert. And what is the, like, festival experience? You go to a festival and you're like, no, I'll be fine. And then you're freezing.

Rhiannon Joyce (20:57)

Yeah.

Naima Fatima (20:58)

And having somewhere where you can buy like an exclusive hoodie or a. Like a zip up hoodie and you can customize it and it says Coachella. Perfect. I think it's so cool. I really liked Alex Earl Real Actives giving everyone branded portable chargers. I think.

Rhiannon Joyce (21:15)

Genius.

Naima Fatima (21:15)

I didn't see this.

Joanna Fleming (21:16)

I didn't see that either.

Naima Fatima (21:17)

Yeah. And that people had them stuck to the. What are they called? The Octo buddies. So everyone holding their phone had their portable chargers and it had Real Actives on it.

Joanna Fleming (21:26)

Oh, smart.

Naima Fatima (21:27)

What do you need at a festival? A portable charger.

Joanna Fleming (21:30)

The one that saturated my feed the Most was the 818 outpost.

Naima Fatima (21:33)

Yes.

Rhiannon Joyce (21:34)

I saw a lot of 818.

Naima Fatima (21:35)

A lot.

Joanna Fleming (21:35)

You. I honestly couldn't even I don't have time in this episode to list how many sponsors or like pop up brands were within that outpost. You had all of the Kardashian brands like Lemmy were there, Cloud, Salton, Stone Road, all of these different brands were activating in some way. So the 818 outpost actually was covered by people, brands and things, which is a very popular Instagram profile. We've probably mentioned it several times on this podcast. But they covered the behind the scenes of how this event comes together across their socials and their substack, which just shows you how intense this process is of combining all of these different sponsors and making sure the event goes off without a hitch and that you haven't forgotten a single detail. It's actually really interesting if you want to go and look at the behind the scenes of, you know, what happens in this world to bring this event together. It's. Yeah, worth. Worth a look. I thought it was interesting that road did a little mini pop up within the 818 outpost because they had their own separate pop up, which I think was only on day two by the looks of it, wasn't it?

Naima Fatima (22:38)

Yeah, I think they sent out stuff on day one.

Joanna Fleming (22:41)

Day one. Yeah.

Naima Fatima (22:42)

The actual pop up was on day two.

Joanna Fleming (22:44)

Yes. Which I actually, it wasn't saturating my feet as much as the 818. And then when I started looking for the content, that's when I started seeing all of the influencers that were invited, you know, posting about their experiences there. And look, it was pretty well done. I thought they had a bar, they had little games like darts, you could win the claw machine. They had a makeup touch up station so you could actually get out of the heat because it looked like it was really hot on day two as well. And they had a dj. There was a few creators that posted about there being a line to take a mirror selfie.

Rhiannon Joyce (23:15)

I saw the video of that as well.

Joanna Fleming (23:17)

Yeah, there was like a mirror that was shaped in the road R, but it looked like it was pretty well done. I just thought it was interesting that they would also activate in a separate area of the festival as well.

Naima Fatima (23:27)

Because then it was like a ride to get it. Yeah, like it wasn't like on site, so you had to like go separately and then like make your way into the festival as well. Yeah, I thought it was interesting.

Rhiannon Joyce (23:38)

Road were all over my feed. I love Justin Bieber and I love Haley and I love that crossover and the intersection of their two worlds coming together at Coachella. It felt like a really good execution. I Think it was so smart that they did the collab as well. Leading into it. Yeah. Apparently all the stock went on sale the day that Justin Bieber was performing. Like everything was super strategic, well timed. It felt like the perfect amalgamation of both of their brands coming together. I love the little mushrooms as well. Yeah, Felt like mushrooms. I've got to call out the elephant in the room. There is a connotation here to illicit substances being mushrooms, right?

Joanna Fleming (24:15)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (24:15)

And the way that they're physically showing up is these cutie little pop up toys and fun things that people are then playing on in a brand capacity. But I feel like there is a subtle nod there and maybe I'm over. Maybe I'm reading into this a bit too much.

Naima Fatima (24:29)

Well, that billboard was also just Little Mushrooms.

Rhiannon Joyce (24:31)

Little mushrooms as well. And I'm. I'm just, I'm. Is there something there?

Naima Fatima (24:35)

Can I say,

Joanna Fleming (24:37)

looking around for reassurance, we're just like. I don't know.

Rhiannon Joyce (24:41)

It seems to me that there is just this reoccurring theme of mushrooms that I'm noticing.

Joanna Fleming (24:44)

There was another brand that did it as well.

Rhiannon Joyce (24:46)

Revolve also had mushrooms on their billboard. But I couldn't work out it was from this year or from a previous year. I actually listened to an episode on the business of Fashion. Their debrief podcast which was talking about revolves heavy investment and they're locked into AI and part of that conversation touched on how they activate and show up at Coachella. Because we all know that they're probably the goat brand at Coachella. I feel like they're the gold star that everyone's trying to.

Naima Fatima (25:11)

The og.

Rhiannon Joyce (25:11)

Og and everyone's trying to emulate that. Correct. Which was live this year.

Naima Fatima (25:15)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (25:16)

But yeah, mushrooms, they also were playing on that I just couldn't work out. It was from this year. It was from a previous year.

Joanna Fleming (25:21)

Yeah. Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (25:22)

There's a common theme here.

Naima Fatima (25:23)

Raised trend of the festival mushrooms.

Joanna Fleming (25:26)

The PR send outs for Rhode were to me, I made this like observation. I do receive like gifting at home quite a bit and I'm like opening up these packages and I've noticed a big shift in Australia recently. Not recently. Over the last probably two years, I would say. We used to get these quite Americanized PR sendouts that would be all of this excess kind of packaging and there would be all of these things that were like single use. And we see a lot less of that in Australian primary these days. We're still seeing it a lot in the U.S. yeah. So they're like, you know, poppable balloons, the things that are going to landfill. Yes, it is a bit more gimmicky. So I did notice that. And I'm like, I don't know if that PR send out would translate in Australia the way that it does for US creators.

Rhiannon Joyce (26:11)

That's really interesting, Jo. And I think that's a really fair observation to make because I would say that you would be pressed to find people really get around that sort of PR in Australia. It does feel like very US coded. I also felt that that consumerism did translate site at a lot of these activations. One that I noticed a lot that was getting backlash from different creators and just people online in general, predominantly on TikTok in the US was Starbucks. People are very angry towards Starbucks and there are a lot of large creators that were also affiliated with the brand on site at Coachella. And people then, you know, started having conversations around consumerism. Like maxing out basically this year at Coachella and Starbucks, I would say, was the brand that was at the front of that conversation.

Joanna Fleming (26:55)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (26:55)

Did you see a bit of that?

Naima Fatima (26:56)

Yes, I saw a bit of it. And I also saw a lot of the rhetoric of like, the power of saying no. Like a lot of creators came out and said, you know, there have been brand deals I've gotten that I know would have been fun for the weekend, but in the long term was going to be bad for me. Yeah. So they didn't say Starbucks specifically. They didn't call out any creators, but all the search terms seem to go to it.

Joanna Fleming (27:17)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (27:18)

Something like Coachella. Given how big it is now and how much it has really become a marketing tool for so many brands, it is more about the marketing and the influencers and the creators than what it is about them. Music and that's a sad reality.

Naima Fatima (27:29)

Totally.

Rhiannon Joyce (27:30)

And a lot of these festivals do depend on these budgets to be able to activate and to be able to show up. It does feel like the pendulum has lent very heavy into the marketing side for Coachella, more so than others. So I'd be really interested to see over the next few years if they start to correct that or if it's just going to continue to become more about product consumerism, branding, marketing. Because from an advertising point of view, it's a great way to try and connect with a younger demographic because we know that our demographics are aging out of Coachella and Gen Z is very much the ones who are leaning into this experience. So that's why brands are really trying to show up here. But I'm curious to see how the Sentiment shifts over the next couple of years. And are we maxing out on consumerism?

Naima Fatima (28:09)

We'll see. Time will tell.

Joanna Fleming (28:13)

So to move on from the brand stuff, any fits from Coachella that stood out to you?

Rhiannon Joyce (28:19)

Randomly somber, the whole leather fit and the lace bodysuit underneath. When he was performing, it looked cool and like old rock star vibes. I really loved it. He just looked amazing. What about you guys?

Naima Fatima (28:33)

I. This is more of a brand. But I really liked the influences Spell took because Spell feels like it's so Coachella.

Rhiannon Joyce (28:41)

Very Coachella coated.

Naima Fatima (28:42)

Yeah. That's like their style all the time. So it's like that is their brand.

Rhiannon Joyce (28:46)

How would you describe their style, like, if you didn't know who Spell were?

Naima Fatima (28:49)

Whimsical. Very lots of textures, lots of tassels. Quite like browns, whites, creams.

Rhiannon Joyce (28:55)

Kind of like a western sort of skew. Like lots of tassels. Suede, Suede.

Naima Fatima (29:00)

A fair bit of crochet. Like lots of textures. And yeah, I saw a few girls that went with svelte. They all just had quite layered looks and they accessorized to the max. And I. It's not a way that I dress, but I was, like, very interested. I was like, this is so cool how this actually fits into the environment. And it seemed very true to the personal style of the creators that they took as well.

Joanna Fleming (29:23)

Yeah, it's always fun just seeing the get ready with me. I actually really love those videos, like, what I'm wearing on day two and I'm just like, aren't you going to be freezing later? Yeah. I love the fit, but I just know myself. I'm like, my feet would be killing me 10 minutes into this.

Rhiannon Joyce (29:35)

That's why they're going to Gap to get the hoodie.

Joanna Fleming (29:38)

Exactly. I will say I immediately googled as soon as I saw Hayley rock up at the road. Pop up.

Naima Fatima (29:43)

Yeah.

Joanna Fleming (29:43)

In that dress. Immediate Google. Where is this from? I need to know immediately. She wore a 1998 Dior yellow and pink mini.

Rhiannon Joyce (29:53)

It was so cute.

Joanna Fleming (29:55)

It looked so good on. Her stylist is Danny Michelle. I mean, no surprises. She just, yeah, killed it in that outfit. She looks so good. Really soft, like, natural looking. Blow wave as well. She just looked so effortless. Like, she just threw that out in the morning and was like, I'm just gonna wear this today.

Rhiannon Joyce (30:11)

Loved it.

Naima Fatima (30:12)

And different. I felt.

Joanna Fleming (30:13)

Yeah.

Naima Fatima (30:13)

Like, it really stood out to me.

Joanna Fleming (30:15)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (30:15)

The evolution of the Coachella fits from the Kendall Jenners and the Hailey babies of the world. I bet they weren't happy about those 2016 photos being thrown around doll because they look very different. But also really nice to see that you can try really hard and then eventually full circle come out and just be really chill out.

Naima Fatima (30:32)

Yeah, yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (30:33)

Wear really chill outfits. But I don't mind people trying hard and leading into the method dressing when it comes to Coachella. Yeah.

Joanna Fleming (30:39)

Have a bit of fun with it. Have some creativity. Do what you want. Wear 10 belts if you want to. Yeah, yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (30:44)

I'd say festival dressing in general, that is a space where people can do that. And whether you're going to a bush door or you're going to Coachella, everyone really leans into the looks and really leans into, you know, what the vibe is depending on where you're going to

Naima Fatima (30:58)

put another one in. Madeline White, I would say also I like.

Rhiannon Joyce (31:02)

So sweet.

Naima Fatima (31:03)

I know. And like, she makes her outfits every year. This year she made like the whole Zara Larson belt and she's pregnant. Like, good on her. Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (31:13)

I also really liked acquired style. She did the classic just old vintage Levi jeans and did the bedazzled sort of top and it was like quite basic. And a few people were like, oh, is that it? And I was like, I like it. I still think it looks really good. And yeah, it's like you were comfy as well. Yeah. She was like doing a dance proof like thing in her get ready with me.

Joanna Fleming (31:33)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (31:33)

And I was like, if you can dance in it, then you're good to go.

Joanna Fleming (31:35)

I love that Madeline White as well does her own glam too, because she very easily could have, you know, a hair and makeup team come and do that for her. She's like, no, I enjoy this process. I'm doing it myself.

Rhiannon Joyce (31:45)

Love it, love it. Next, we're going to be talking about Anna Wintour and Meryl Streep's Vogue cover, which is more than just a cover. But that will be right after a word from today's sponsor. When you're grabbing drinks from Dan Murphy's, do you go for the same beer or wine every time or do you like to mix it up? I dare say many of us reach for our go to favorites simply because we don't know what else to choose. But our friends at Dan Murphy's are here to help in our time of need. They are the experts when it comes to what's new and what's trending in drinks. All you have to do is chat to someone in store or browse their app for inspiration. Always remember to choose to drink wise. And thank you so much to Dan Murphy's for making this episode of Stylish possible.

Naima Fatima (32:21)

Okay, so last week I was sitting in bed and I opened up my phone right before I was going to sleep. Naughty. I know. But I opened it up. There was a post up right at the top of my feed and it was 48 minutes before and it was Meryl Streep and Anna Wintour on the COVID of Vogue Us. And I have never screenshot something quicker and posted it to Stylish quicker.

Rhiannon Joyce (32:42)

That is why you are the head of socials at Shameless Media.

Joanna Fleming (32:44)

I was working overtime.

Naima Fatima (32:46)

Oh, my God. I better get this up right now.

Joanna Fleming (32:49)

And she's recalled this story so she can put it on a timesheet for overtime.

Rhiannon Joyce (32:53)

Yeah, I'll see that in the time in Lou Doc.

Joanna Fleming (32:55)

Don't you worry about that.

Rhiannon Joyce (32:56)

And rightfully so. You gotta be quick.

Naima Fatima (32:58)

Yeah, it didn't take that long. I didn't come up with anything radical about it.

Joanna Fleming (33:02)

At least put an hour down.

Naima Fatima (33:03)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pretty much everyone posted about this cover. It was every second IG story for me as well. And it absolutely blew up on social media. It had 1.2 million likes and 10,000 comments. And as someone who is head of social Hard to get.

Rhiannon Joyce (33:20)

I love comparison with their other announcements on the magazines and how that's performed.

Naima Fatima (33:26)

I think it'd be pretty high up.

Rhiannon Joyce (33:27)

Yeah.

Joanna Fleming (33:27)

Okay.

Rhiannon Joyce (33:28)

I want to have a little look, a little side by side.

Naima Fatima (33:30)

The COVID was, of course, promoting the upcoming Devil West Prada 2 movie, which has been everywhere for which seems like years. I feel like I saw the first trailer so long ago, but it's finally coming out.

Joanna Fleming (33:42)

It's.

Naima Fatima (33:42)

It stars the famous Meryl Streep as Miranda Priestley, the editor of chief of fictional magazine Runway, which is a character reportedly inspired by Anna Wintour herself. The reason this cover caused such a splash on Social and Everywhere is because this is the first time Anna has been the subject of a Vogue cover. And it's also coming at odds with the announcement last year that she was stepping back as editor in chief of Vogue when the last movie came out. I would say that she really. She went to the premiere, but she really wasn't associated with it at all, even though it was a character based off her and off a memoir from one of her previous assistants. But she was pretty tight lipped. Whenever she was asked a question about it. She kind of just like said it was a character. She didn't want to talk about it too much. They didn't lean into the marketing of

Joanna Fleming (34:30)

the movie or if anything, they distanced Themselves. So I tried to deny it and

Rhiannon Joyce (34:35)

it was like they're trying to rewrite the narrative now as well.

Joanna Fleming (34:37)

I was like, I feel like it

Rhiannon Joyce (34:38)

was pretty icy at the time.

Naima Fatima (34:39)

Yeah. And I think what we've seen now is a full time full 180.

Rhiannon Joyce (34:42)

Full 180.

Naima Fatima (34:43)

Yeah.

Joanna Fleming (34:44)

I want to ask the question they haven't specifically said anywhere and I googled multiple terms to see if I could find a specific explicit like statement. They haven't actually said that Vogue are working in a paid capacity or sponsored capacity with Disney or the Devil Wears Prada too. But there is a lot of publicity going on at Vogue for this movie release.

Rhiannon Joyce (35:06)

Well, interestingly, Chloe actually referenced in her letter to the editor that they wanted to have some fun with this as well. They wanted to really ride the wave and didn't want Disney to have all the fun. I will say this probably a really good time to say that we are also part of Disney plus to promote the release of the Devil Wears Prada too. Yeah. This segment is entirely non sponsored. We are mostly having a conversation about the Vogue feature itself and how we would disclose. And we have disclosed that we. We are working with Disney plus. But I actually thought the same thing, Joe. They would have to if it was in some way endorsed.

Naima Fatima (35:41)

No, they would have to.

Rhiannon Joyce (35:42)

They would have to. They would have to. I think they're just leveraging the machine and they're like, you know what, let's make hay while the sun shines.

Joanna Fleming (35:49)

Okay, so you think Vogue have seen this as an opportunity to boost readership and engagement. They're like, this is going to be big. Fuck it, let's just lean in.

Rhiannon Joyce (35:55)

I think they're in cahoots in the sense of it being an earned media exchange. But by no means do I think this is a paid partnership because if it was, they would have to disclose that. That's what I thought.

Joanna Fleming (36:04)

I'm like, surely this is illegal.

Rhiannon Joyce (36:06)

Yeah, it is, I think, which is why I'm like, it has to be entirely earned and them just strategizing around it. And they have, they've done a really good job at hijacking one of these moments.

Joanna Fleming (36:19)

Yeah. Well, let me kind of reiterate what they've done so far. So Wintour appeared at the Academy Awards to promote it with Anne Hathaway. They did a little like, you know, thing on stage. Like, funny little exchange. Then there were two podcast episodes about the film on Vogue's the Run through podcast. And the Vogue Book club is currently reading the Devil Wears Prada. Yeah, and they're doing like a screening as well.

Naima Fatima (36:40)

Yeah, it's such an amazing multi pronged. Like I was like this person or like the team has been like, content, content, content, content, content.

Rhiannon Joyce (36:49)

It's working.

Joanna Fleming (36:49)

You see why I thought it was a sponsored partnership.

Rhiannon Joyce (36:52)

I can totally see why you thought that. And I literally thought the same thing, but they would have to disclose it.

Joanna Fleming (36:57)

Also, Chloe Marles said in her editor's letter, which was part of this issue, that she brought the idea of doing the COVID to Anna and Anna was like, not my style. I won't be doing that actually. And then Meryl Streep ended up being the one that convinced her.

Naima Fatima (37:12)

I love this part so much because she says that she's in the backseat of Anna's town car in Paris on their way to a Balenciaga preview. Does that not sound exactly like the movie?

Joanna Fleming (37:22)

Yeah, that happened.

Rhiannon Joyce (37:27)

I think they were on their way to to Dior. But yeah, this does feel like a really strong attempt for Anna to reclaim her personal brand. It's always been about Vogue and she's always been an extension of Vogue, but now with the change in her position, it does feel like she's trying to establish, like, who Anna is outside of the four walls of Vogue. And that's why she's making this real conscious effort to physically one show up on the COVID Because what that reflects is a real strong sense of power and control.

Joanna Fleming (37:55)

Yep.

Rhiannon Joyce (37:55)

We know that she's not the one who's in charge technically now, but I think that image physically reinforces her position of power. But also the constant appearance in these pop culture moments feels really deliberate.

Joanna Fleming (38:07)

I think it's been a strategic way to approach her personal brand. I saw an Instagram post by Bed Media that said Anna's move to own your own narrative before someone else does is a valuable lesson in brand strategy. Clearly, like, she's avoided the public spotlight and talking to media outlets and things before, like, she hasn't really given you any insight into who she is as a person before this.

Rhiannon Joyce (38:30)

Jo. This feeds so well into one of the quotes that I actually pulled from Amy Odell, the author of Anna Wintour's biography. She actually suggested this approach gives Anna a lot of control to really define what her legacy is. In her Back Row newsletter, Odell writes, anna is a visual editor above all else, a brilliant one who understands that these images and viral moments have the effect of washing the other stuff away. She then went on and drew parallels between past covers that have been monumental moments for the stars that have featured on them that Anna was spearheading. One example she gave was the way Hillary Clinton's 1998 Vogue cover served as a corrective around the time of her husband's scandal. And more recently, the way that Kim Kardashian and Kanye West's cover in 2014 made audiences forget about Kim's tackiness, anointing her to great personal profit as a fashion person. So, you know, this isn't Anna's first rodeo when it comes to setting the narrative, setting the tone about how she wants to be perceived. This feels really deliberate.

Naima Fatima (39:33)

I do love that she called Meryl and said, is. Is it good? Like she. That she, like, double checked that double Wes Prada was actually gonna be. There wasn't anything scary in it.

Joanna Fleming (39:43)

Yeah, yeah. It was worth her time.

Rhiannon Joyce (39:45)

Yeah, yeah.

Joanna Fleming (39:46)

Vogue also released a podcast interviewing Anna's former assistants.

Rhiannon Joyce (39:50)

Anna's Angels.

Joanna Fleming (39:51)

Yes. Which was hosted by Chloe Marl. And she interviewed Anna's Angels or, you know, three former assistants that have worked very closely with Anna. I thought that episode was a lot more honest than I was expecting it to be. They were quite upfront and provided a lot of detail about what it was like to work for Anna.

Rhiannon Joyce (40:07)

It really scratched an itch for me, all of that. All those assumptions you just made over the years just being addressed. I loved that episode one part of it. They actually said that they did have this unspoken uniform at Vogue. So if you worked for Anna specifically, and they had. They coined this term on the podcast. Whereas if you were in Anna's office, you weren't allowed to wear jeans and sneakers.

Naima Fatima (40:27)

Yes.

Rhiannon Joyce (40:28)

They did have these unspoken rules that if you didn't, you know, follow, you're

Joanna Fleming (40:32)

probably on the out and being notified about her car arriving so that you could be prepared for her arrival into the office as well, which was something that was reflected a bit in the movie. They were like, the panic wasn't quite the way that it was shown in the movie, but you were notified and you would act accordingly.

Naima Fatima (40:49)

Yeah, I did. Also quite like that everyone that they had on still worked at Vogue like that. They had, like, a career trajectory there, and they were all in quite senior roles now. So that element of the movie where they kept saying, you know, you just do this for two years, and it's gonna be the hardest two years of your life, but you're gonna have an amazing job afterwards and all these opportunities. I guess that part of it was correct.

Rhiannon Joyce (41:13)

I think, like many things with this execution, it's very strategic. Yeah, that would have been deliberate.

Naima Fatima (41:18)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (41:18)

I don't Think they would have featured anyone who one didn't have nice things to say about Vogue or Anna herself to work for the company. The tenure point, I. I did clock that as well.

Naima Fatima (41:27)

Yeah. I think it did great things for the human resources.

Joanna Fleming (41:32)

How much control do we think that Anna still has over the direction of Vogue these. These days? Like, a lot. Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (41:38)

I don't think her power has been relinquished at all. If anything, I think it's stronger. And again, Chloe's letter to the editor and the timing of this and how much she really referred to Anna in that saying, you know, I turned her in the back of the car. What do you think of this? She's still going to her for that constant reassurance. I think that was very deliberate. It feels like it's forming part of the narrative.

Joanna Fleming (41:59)

I do think that there's collaborative conversations happening between Anna and.

Rhiannon Joyce (42:03)

Who does the buck stop with, though?

Joanna Fleming (42:05)

Well, yeah, that's the thing. I think that Chloe's coming to her with really great ideas and trying to innovate and trying to take a little bit of a different approach. But at the end of the day, it does seem like, you know, Anna's still her boss at the end of the day.

Naima Fatima (42:17)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (42:17)

And she has a wealth of experience, you know, and she's obviously leading by example. And Chloe's probably soaking all of this up. Why would you not turn to Anna?

Joanna Fleming (42:25)

Exactly. I was about to say, why wouldn't you lean on her expertise and learn as much as you can from her? She's just been in that role for decades.

Naima Fatima (42:31)

As much as the buck stops with Ana, in my opinion, because it wouldn't have happened if she didn't say yes. But this, to me does feel like this has Chloe's stamp all over it and this like, new direction and age for Vogue. And I think that you kind of see that where it's like, it's not just about the magazine. There's so many other supporting elements in that, like the sourcing of the secondhand books for the book club. The book club being able to see the movie first. Like, you know, the fact that there was a podcast episode that supported it straight after the article came out. There was such a multi channel approach, which to me seems like a Chloe touch. But the overall, like, branding piece has come from Miranda, so Miranda has come from Anna, has come from Anna. And I think those two elements have molded very nicely together. And I think Chloe's been very smart in thinking about what is the face of, of Vogue and not wasting that, you know.

Rhiannon Joyce (43:28)

Yeah, you're bang on nightmare. That's such a good point. They're working harder together and it feels like they've got a really, really good synergy. I do want to make the call out. In Chloe's editor's letter as well, she did acknowledge that Annie Leibovitz, who photographed Anna and Meryl, all of them is age 76 and all of them have had a long standing relationship with Vogue. So there was this nice sentiment and almost like acknowledgement of the old guard as well, which I thought was very deliberate and thoughtful.

Joanna Fleming (43:53)

The Guardian also reported that an ancestry report said that Meryl and Anna are actually sixth cousins.

Naima Fatima (44:01)

Really?

Joanna Fleming (44:01)

Yeah. I thought that was the most random fact. But what are the chances?

Rhiannon Joyce (44:06)

What are the chances of that?

Joanna Fleming (44:08)

Like, that's pretty far removed to be six cousins, but still in the whole world.

Rhiannon Joyce (44:12)

In the whole world.

Joanna Fleming (44:13)

And, like, Anna's British.

Rhiannon Joyce (44:15)

Yeah, she is too.

Joanna Fleming (44:16)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (44:17)

Oh, my God. I didn't know that.

Joanna Fleming (44:18)

Vogue's been widely criticized in recent years for disappointing covers and just content falling flat in general. Do we think that this partnership, I guess we could call it. I don't think there's any monetary exchange based on this conversation. Do we think that this Devil Wears Prada 2 partnership in some way is breathing new life into US vogue?

Rhiannon Joyce (44:43)

I think beyond the partnership, or not being a partnership with the Devil Wears Prada too, it's actually the timing of all of this for me, that's really interesting. We are about to go into the Met Gala, which is arguably Vogue's biggest moment in the calendar year. I think all of this playing out prior to that, it's building momentum for them to really transcend into this new world of media. And I think, Chloe, to your point, Nymar is spearheading a lot of that and it's a really nice handing over of the baton. It feels. It's like ending everything on a bang and then handing it over in a way where it feels like Chloe's taking it into that new world. Anna's not going anywhere.

Naima Fatima (45:22)

Yeah.

Rhiannon Joyce (45:23)

She's still part of the conversation and obviously still, you know, influencing a lot of things behind the scenes. But, yeah, it. Beyond the film itself, it feels like it's the right moment for them to be doing that because this time of year is the most relevant Vogue are.

Naima Fatima (45:36)

Yeah. I think it makes me really excited for the Met Gala because it's like, this is such a beautiful lead up straight into it. I'm very interested in seeing if it's going to look differently this year because notoriously, it is. Anna's baby. So what's going to be the rollout? That's different. With Chloe at the helm, is Anna

Joanna Fleming (45:54)

still in charge of the guest list?

Rhiannon Joyce (45:55)

Yeah, I think so. Yes.

Joanna Fleming (45:59)

Well, that is all for this week's episode of Stylish. Thank you so much for joining us. And of course, thank you very much to Rhiannon, Joyce and Nymar. Fatima for you, Jo. And remember, you can drop us an email at any time@style-ishamelessmedia.com or you can slide into our DMs over at Stylish Pod. We're always happy to hear from you. And we can't forget to thank the Shameless media team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt and senior podcast producer Kate Emma Burke. You'll hear the final installment of our wedding series this Friday. Calm myself, Marie. I know. And Mads will be back with us next Wednesday, so we'll see you then.

Rhiannon Joyce (46:31)

Looking forward to it. See you guys. Bye. This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land.

Joanna Fleming (46:43)

Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.