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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. This episode of Stylish is brought to you by Anz Business Start. Right, Worry less about the what ifs and focus on what's next.
- [00:22]
B
Hello, and welcome to our new fortnightly episode of Stylish. That's right, we're giving you more Stylish. My name is Madison Sullivan Thorpe and my co host is Rhiannon Joyce. Look, you may know by now if you've listened to our first few episodes, but we have a little bit of a different focus with these apps. We're analyzing the world of brands with cult followings, creative campaigns we're loving that are capturing global attention, fashion and beauty trends and exploring those little how did they get their career moments. Ray, how are we?
- [00:53]
A
I'm great. I'm actually off to Sydney today, so a bit of a whirlwind day, one meeting to the next. I've got back to back.
- [00:59]
B
She's a jet setter back from the UK on Sunday. Now this.
- [01:04]
A
I was laughing with Zara, our co founder and co host of Shameless podcast. She was like, how are you feeling about going to Sydney straight after London? I was like, I love it because it's giving busy gal super important. I'm not, I'm just leaning into the travel energy and, like, that's a big.
- [01:19]
B
Thing, don't you think? Corporate travel, when you're younger feels so, like, sexy, but as you get older, it gets a feel slightly tiring.
- [01:24]
A
Absolutely. And I'm so old that all I want to do is be in my own bed. How's your week been?
- [01:29]
B
My week's been really chaotic, to be honest. Feel like I am burning the candle since getting back. Just like, trying to get back on top of things. The irony, when you work for yourself, no one's paying your annual leave, so you still have to be working. But I gave myself the gift of a full week offline and I am paying dearly for that week offline. Now.
- [01:48]
A
That's sad.
- [01:49]
B
Oh, well, here we are.
- [01:50]
A
Here we are.
- [01:51]
B
I'll have a Friday drink with you and it'll be fine.
- [01:53]
A
Mads, I'm super keen to hear your word of the week. We've spent some time apart, so I don't really know what you're bringing yet, so can you tell me?
- [02:00]
B
Yeah. So look, it's a couple more than one word, but we'll just go with it. It's the unfortunately I do love trend, and unfortunately I do love this trend so much. If you're not aware of it, there is a trend going around on TikTok. At the moment, which is predominantly women saying, unfortunately, I do love and listing all of the things that maybe are not societal norms or what are glamorized on social as things to love. So think coffee on empty stomach, having a drunk sig, staying out at a club until 3am it feels very reminiscent of like the Brat era of Charli xcx. But what I love is that I think so much of social media is about what is perfect and habit stacking and making the most productive use of your time and being the healthiest, best version version of yourself. Like, I think we're a little bit exhausted by that. Like this whole like 75 hard lock in, like, be the best version. I've kind of loved seeing women just lean into all the things they're doing that are not great, like using your dirty makeup brushes, texting your situation. Shit. Have you seen this?
- [03:05]
A
I've seen it everywhere. I also love the audio that's backed.
- [03:09]
B
It's like a dar.
- [03:11]
A
It's like a real rock energy.
- [03:12]
B
You did that so well.
- [03:14]
A
Thank you. I mean, I've seen so many of this trend. I agree. I think it's the antidote to this perfect picture that people are curating on social media. My one little gripe is when I can tell someone's popped it into Chat GPT and it's just spat out the most, like, generic ones. I really love when they're really personal and specific. But if it's generic. Sorry, babe, I'm swiping up.
- [03:35]
B
I did ask ChatGPT what it thought of me after I had done my own. Thank you very much. ChatGPT wouldn't know how many forms of potato I love, but you certainly would with painted enough.
- [03:45]
A
100%. Yours felt really specific, which I loved. And again, when I've seen creators and it feels very specific and niche, I'm like, nod to that. Absolutely obsessed. I also want to put a pin in this because I do want to come back to this trend in this week's episode because I think it ties in nicely to a point that we'll make later on about is sexy back.
- [04:06]
B
All right then, come on, Ray, tell us what are we chatting about today?
- [04:09]
A
So, as you guys know, we've been apart for a fortnight. It was the longest fortnight of my life. This is the longest Mads and I have gone without seeing each other. It's been really hard. But we have been away for two weeks and. And in our group chat and also in the Slack channel, we were sharing quite a bit and talking a lot. About this whole concept of is sexy back now a cultural reference? I just want to draw on that. I recall in the last couple of weeks is the Sabrina Carpenter VMAs performance. It felt like to me on TikTok, in my group chats, everyone was talking about how sexy this performance was and it being a nod back to the Britney Spears so Serpent Snake performance that she iconically did at the VMAs as well. What was your take on this performance? Did you think it was a resurgence of sexy?
- [04:58]
B
I think it is complete resurgence of sexy. And I'm glad you brought up the VMAs. Sabrina is one example, but Tate McCrae cannot be ignored. For me, I feel like maybe you ended up on the Sabrina algorithm and I ended up on the Tate McRae algorithm because it just felt like the noughties were back. And I think the pop star era in general is that Dua Lipa's tour, Tate McCrae's. But very much at the VMAs we're seeing that resurgence of sexy in both costuming, in dance, in what they're wearing on the red carpet. I'm not going to lie. I'm loving every goddamn minute.
- [05:35]
A
I'm loving it because it feels like these young women are really embracing their sexuality. They're not shying away from owning the fact that they are sexy. I also want to talk about some red carpet moments that have popped up over the past few weeks as well that lean into this idea that sexy is back. Quite literally. Margot Robbie rocking the sexiest dress with the sexiest back I've ever seen.
- [05:58]
B
Gagged, gagging. I honestly have never seen someone look that good.
- [06:05]
A
It's the return of the naked dress.
- [06:07]
B
Oh. Like, do you think she woke up, looked in the mirror as she was like getting ready to go? And when I really am that bitch.
- [06:14]
A
I. Yeah. And she is that bitch. And also that was the. I, I honestly think I'm going to call it. That was the most shared photo I've seen on Instagram probably this year of a single red carpet look.
- [06:25]
B
Agreed.
- [06:25]
A
She is iconic and obviously a homegrown talent, so I'm obsessed with that. But we also saw Dakota Johnson wearing Gucci and a very similar naked dress style.
- [06:34]
B
Yeah.
- [06:34]
A
For those two looks to be dropping quite closely together in the same week for me, indicates that sexy's back, babe.
- [06:42]
B
I agree. And then also we've kind of got this lingerie dressing that we're seeing at the moment with these like little silky cammies, the sort of do end style shorts and things that we're seeing a lot of Zara kind of duping it as well. I think we're seeing bare, sexy dressing, not just on red carpets. We're seeing it on our favorite creators and quite literally just on the street.
- [07:02]
A
Well, why are we talking about this? And why are these cultural moments so relevant to the conversation we're having today? Well, Mads and I really, really wanted to focus on the traditional way that sex has been used in advertising and brand building back from the 80s and 90s. Look at the past. A time period where the sexual innuendos became less subtle and sexual imagery became more provocative, and how in 2025, pop culture and the campaigns we're seeing right now are reimagining what sex, or in our case, sexy, means in the same context.
- [07:35]
B
But before we get into our deep dive, I want to spend a bit of time exploring the origins of the theme of sex and the dated concept of sex sells.
- [07:44]
A
And you're using your little white bag quotations?
- [07:46]
B
I am using my little quotation fingers because I think it is that slogan that we naturally gravitate towards or rely on to explain something that's sexy.
- [07:54]
A
And look, if you're in marketing and branding, I don't think this would be unfamiliar. And it dates back as far as 1871. It was actually a brand called Pearl Tobacco, LOL. When it was actually okay to advertise cigarettes. It's wild to me. But, yes, there was a time. So a brand called Pearl Tobacco emblazoned its cigarette packages with a drawing of a naked woman. The phrase sex sells also dates back to this time. So in our research, that was very much where this term sort of came about and where we started to see sex being used as a marketing tool now throughout the 20th century. And, Mads, you touched on this earlier with the noughties. And even in pop culture, the sex sell strategy evolved as more and more brands pushed the envelope until it became commonplace across many industries.
- [08:42]
B
Yeah, and I think a lot of the time, we kind of reference the 90s, 2000s as that peak sex sells period. I don't know if that's because we're millennial women or because that's when it felt like it peaked and kind of went from you know, advertisement of product to people and campaign. Like, it really evolved outside of just, you know, a singular campaign focus.
- [09:04]
A
For me, it was at the core of the campaign, I think back to some of these brands, like Victoria's Secret, Abercrombie and Fitch, Tom Ford. These campaigns were all driven by sex and I'm going to be really honest, when I look back on that moment, it is so obvious to me that they were also driven by the male gaze and the focus was on objectifying women.
- [09:23]
B
Totally. I think women's bodies were used both as the product and the entertainment, and largely driven by males in boardrooms for males at home. What I'm excited to chat through today is the evolution of how, personally, I believe women have taken some power back in this narrative of sex sells. Again, using my little quotation fingers. But I think exactly to your point, Ray, we've got examples like Abercrombie, we've got examples like Victoria's Secret, but also brands like Playboy Bunny that evolved out of just product and campaign with the magazine into reality TV shows like Girls of the Playboy Mansion.
- [10:01]
A
So true. One thing I really want to emphasize for this episode is how much culture influences campaigns. And throughout this episode, we'll talk from two perspectives. Where was the culture at at this point in time? And then how did that influence the campaigns? Bringing it forward to 2025, same lens. What is the culture right now and how is that influencing this idea that sexy is coming back? When. When I look back at the early 2000s and the naughty's Mads, you've touched on, you know, the Playboy Mansion, other cultural, film, television, things that come to mind that were really, really popular and just felt like they were everywhere. Britney Spears, Madonna, you know, really embracing sex as part of their personal brand and in their music, the toxic film clip, you know, even Madonna's whole aura and has always been quite sexual in the film space. American Pie.
- [10:54]
B
Oh, my God, what a brilliant reference.
- [10:57]
A
It just felt like how many times. Ooh, how many versions of that film did they end up having? Like four iterations of it? You know, brands were tapping into these cult, the culture and the zeitgeist. And what they were able to tap into was that sex was really prevalent and it was absolutely by design to serve men. And the male gaze, it was rampant.
- [11:21]
B
I agree. And I'm really glad you brought up sort of that pop era, which is why I think the VMAs in our current sphere means so much. Because when you go Back to the VMAs, we had Britney's 2001 slave for you routine with the big serpent. We had the Britney and Madonna kiss. We had like the dirty era of Christina Aguilera. Like, this is very much a moment in time. And I kind of timestamp that there where it feels like it was for men and for the male gaze and Then there's kind of this juxtaposition position for me which feels like it was ahead of its time, which is Sex and the City, which felt like it was sex, was selling for women by women. Do you kind of feel like those two lived in like a, you know, at the same time but at totally different viewpoints?
- [12:05]
A
Yes. I also think Sex in the City for me, and I was really young when this show came out, but looking back with a modern lens, Sex in the City probably surged a lot of the discomfort and the rejection of advertising and cultural moments being set by men.
- [12:25]
B
Yes.
- [12:25]
A
It was like, hey, wait a minute, this is actually what I want to see. Women being represented in a way where it's sex positive. It's not the censored version of sex. It's not sex from the position where it serves the man. Like, I cannot stress how ridiculous it is how many brands and how many film and television were just there to serve like 14 to 16 year horny 16 year old boys. Let's be honest, Sex in the City was for the girls.
- [12:49]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [12:49]
A
And that is what I feel like started to bubble and started to, you know, drive the conversation around. Wait a minute. I don't want to say this anymore. I'm not accepting this ad about a product that is completely unrelated to a woman being front and center in it, you know, particularly across the food category. And I'm getting ahead of myself a little bit. But I am going to be talking about Carl Juniors, which is an American burger brand, later. But they were, were notorious for it, particularly in the super bowl era. The super bowl era of the 2000s was rife with ads objectifying women. And then we started to see this real shift and surge away from that. And I honestly think Sex and the City had a huge part of that.
- [13:30]
B
Who do you look to and say as kind of, I guess the turning.
- [13:34]
A
Point of the ship, Top of mind is dove. I've spoken about this on the podcast before, but we started to see brands embrace different body shapes, diversity messaging that felt like it was targeting women and was for women. Now, in a previous episode, I did criticize with a modern lens how that campaign perhaps hasn't aged well. But also we've got to remember in that current time, that was huge for women to be able to see themselves in a campaign. That was a real shift from what traditionally we were seeing in the marketing and the media landscape at that time. So that is something that I look back on and I look at a moment being like, huh, okay, something shifting here. The positioning of a product is being more female focused because at the end of the day, the women in the room are the ones buying the product, so why are we ostracizing them? But also, I just think women's voices in general got louder in the early 2000s, and we really started to find our place and were given space to be able to criticize and critique and have critical conversation about what was happening and not standing for it anymore.
- [14:38]
B
Yeah. And what I love so much about the last five minutes of what we've discussed is we have two very contrasting examples that have had the same impact. One being Sex and the City, where it is overt discussion about sex and body and reclaiming power. And Dove, which is taking the sexualization out to talk freely and openly about, you know, different body shapes and types and honest conversations, both coming at it in very different veins, but the end.
- [15:08]
A
Result ultimately being very similar and pushing the narrative forward. And I think that's the most important theme because when we get to the conversation around 2025, there's been 25 years of evolution from that point. So to see where we are and to have a conversation about that, I'm really excited.
- [15:22]
B
But before we deep dive into some recent campaigns and cultural moments that are resurging this sexy trend that we're talking about, we're going to hear a word from today's sponsor.
- [15:35]
A
Mads, you and I have both been doing our thing for a while, but have you noticed that lately it feels like everyone is going freelance, starting a side hustle or at least thinking about it?
- [15:43]
B
Yes, and I'm actually so here for it. It feels like the 9 to 5 isn't the default anymore. We want flexibility, creative control, and all the other good stuff that comes with working for yourself.
- [15:54]
A
But also, can we talk about the fact that it's scary? Like, where does one start?
- [15:58]
B
100%. When I went freelance, I had the classic what ifs running through my head. Like, what if I struggle to run a business on top of doing all the work?
- [16:06]
A
Well, that's something anz business start right wants to conquer. It's not just about banking. They want to support new business owners in every way possible so you can start strong and, you know, actually survive.
- [16:17]
B
This is the practical support we all need too, like step by step checklists, business setup, tips, and cash flow tools. You can even sit down with an Anz specialist to ask those burning banking questions when you're starting up or growing your business.
- [16:29]
A
And this is all incredible, but I think the biggest win is the mindset shift. Armed with the knowledge, you'll stop worrying about what can go wrong and start wondering, well, what's the best that could happen? Anz has just been awarded the 2025 Small Business bank of the Year by Canstar for a record 10th time.
- [16:46]
B
Start your business right from day one. Just search ANZ Business start. Right?
- [16:50]
A
Thank you so much to Anz for making this episode of Stylish possible. Okay, looking at the current climate and the zeitgeist pop culture. You know, earlier on in the episode we touched on the Sabrina Carpenter Tate McCrae at the VMAs. I really want to home in on the cultural moments right now that I think are influencing the campaigns. What you and I have both seen is the return of the sexy pop star.
- [17:18]
B
Yes, the pop stars bringing sexy back. I feel like I could talk about this for 30 minutes, but I'm not going to ramble. I'm going to put it so concisely as dua Lipa, Tate McCrae and Sabrina Carpenter. You look at Sabrina Carpenter's show, we have this trend of her doing. Have you ever tried this one? And look, I have not been lucky enough to go to a Sabrina Carpenter show, but it is very high on my to do list. But she has this section in the show where she sings one of her most popular songs, juno. And she illustrates on stage a different sexual position each night for each city that differentiates between each show. And it has gained some serious cultural attention.
- [18:01]
A
I've seen it everywhere.
- [18:02]
B
Everywhere. You look at Tate McCrae's sexy little dance breaks, Dua Lipa's very sexy lingerie inspired costuming that we're seeing across her tour. Even more recently, Taylor Swift's pre teasers of Life of a Showgirl. I feel very comfortable saying this is the sexiest era of Taylor Swift we've ever seen. When you compare it to like folklore and Evermore. And I know she touched on the evolution of pop star in Miss Americana, her Netflix doco. Are you seeing this as well?
- [18:31]
A
Yes, I'm seeing it a lot. My direct reference is actually Troye Sivan and Charli xcx.
- [18:37]
B
I can't believe it's been God bless the holy duo.
- [18:41]
A
The holy duo. Did you go to Troye Sivan? You did go to Troye Sivan's concert as well?
- [18:44]
B
I think that was the sexiest thing.
- [18:46]
A
I've ever seen, guys. If you didn't go to this concert, it was so sexy. I was hot and steamy watching it. I turned to Zara and Annabel who I went with. They're Both from the shameless media office and I went oofed. That concert was sexy as fuck.
- [19:01]
B
Yeah.
- [19:01]
A
And I loved it. And do you know why? I loved felt that it was serving someone who had been really transparent like Troye. Sivan has gone on the record and shared a lot about his journey coming out as a gay man.
- [19:14]
B
Yep.
- [19:15]
A
And it felt to me on stage he was the most comfortable he is in his sexuality and was not shying away from exploring it. It felt really liberating to see a pop star who started, you know, his career on YouTube quite shy. He's even spoken about not wanting to perform certain songs from his early albums because he doesn't feel like it reflects his true himself to be his true self and for his identity to be so strong for him to be so proud of it. And it was such an exciting moment for the queer community that they could feel represented. I do want to share a quote from a review of Troye Savants Australian concert. So timeouts. Winnie Stubbs, the travel and hotel editor for apac, said about the Sydney show. The show itself was theatrical masterpiece, sexy and sweaty and spectacular. Supported by a group of absurdly attractive dancers, Savon brought each of his songs to life with a routine that matched the energy, each uniquely confident and seductive and wistful and poetic. That is exactly my experience at the Melbourne show. It felt so sexy, so fun and, as I said before, liberating. And what I'm loving at the moment is that social media is mirroring this and social media. And what I'm seeing on TikTok, particularly off the back of this trad wife trend, is this antidote trend of sexy is back.
- [20:39]
B
Yeah.
- [20:39]
A
And you know, you touched on this in your word of the week, Mads. Unfortunately, I love this trend on TikTok is embracing what women aren't expected to be like. And I love it. And it's a little bit dirty and it's a little bit sexy.
- [20:52]
B
Yeah. And I think it's what women are not expected to be like and what traditionally men have not wanted women to be like. And I love that this current era is women reclaiming their power. There's no you're gonna put me in that box or I'm going to behave to the standard that you want for me, because we've done that for way too long. There's this really liberating feeling of I'm just not conforming. And I think that we're seeing that both at the very top of the pinnacle of a list. Pop stars and, you know, bear dressing from the likes of Margot Robbie right down to the average girl in her bedroom filming. And unfortunately, I do love alongside a video of her blackout drunk outside of a club at 2am I'm here for it.
- [21:38]
A
It also feels reminiscent of the punk era, which was very anti establishment in the 1970s. It feels like this is our way to be anti establishment and really reject those expected notions of women, but also the queer community as well. So now I want to get into my campaign ex and I'm so excited.
- [21:55]
B
To hear about this because I mean, you did just breadcrumb it. But Karl Jr. When we were talking about what brands we were going to chat through and we were like riffing together, I've got to say this was not on my bingo card.
- [22:06]
A
Also not on my bingo card for a stylish episode. This is a burger chain in the US Interestingly enough, as someone who has worked in brand and marketing for a very long time, I even remember when I was at uni, the bikinis and burgers ads that would run during the super bowl for Carl's Juniors and the amount of notoriety and negativity that they attracted because by design they were serving the men in those sporting stadiums, at those pubs, in their houses, watching the footy. Their main tactic was a sexy woman eating a burger in a seductive way. It was so reductive and it was so positioned from the male gays. Now Fast forward to 2025. Carl's juniors returned to the roster of the super bowl. But in an unexpected way. They actually didn't have an ad feature in the super bowl which is estimated to cost about $8 million for a 30 second spot. Eye watering sums. Eye watering in terms of where your marketing budget is going. What they did do though is run a social media campaign. Guess who they tapped? The biggest social media star in the world right now? I would say Alex Earl to front face this campaign. So a bit of context about what the campaign was. Carl's Jr. Updated the 2024 Free Burger Day into a national hangover day and they giving out hangover burgers the day after the Super Bowl. So they're very much tapping into this super bowl cultural moment without having to spend the money on the main spot.
- [23:32]
B
Genius, really. We love adjacent marketing where you don't have to invest but you still get to tack on to the cultural moment.
- [23:37]
A
Brilliant. So given that it was promoting the hangover burgers, I'm not surprised they also tapped up Alex Earl because Alex Earl is notorious for doing get ready with me videos for her to go out clubbing until 3, 4am in the morning. She also honestly fronts camera a lot, looking quite hungover, eating a lot of junk food. So that that contextual alignment for me was really strong. The spot, cheekily did make a nod back to the provocative ads of the 2000s, the iconic Paris Hilton 2005 AD, which garnered a lot of controversy. But one thing I really want to home in on is I did a quick online pulse check.
- [24:15]
B
We love a pulse check.
- [24:16]
A
Love a pulse check of what was TikTok saying about this ad feature and what were the media saying about it? Interestingly, to me, the tone shift was not very negative. It was actually quite complimentary of the fact that Carl's juniors had moved so far away from that traditional 2000s ad that they had become notorious for. And instead there was more emphasis on how they were able to tap into this cultural person being Alex Earl, who is really relevant to young people. They also gave a lot of credit to the fact that there was that contextual alignment with Alex being someone who liked being a bit of a party girl, being a bit unrefined. And again, that resurgence of someone showing up on camera and being like, oh, I'm not like my best self. I'm not perfect. And the third theme, hat tip to the Paris Hilton ad, which at the time was controversial, but the reason why I feel like it's landed now is because they made a little hat tip to it. But they've also demonstrated the evolution from the ad. The other point I want to make is not only was the Zeitgeist and the pulse check relatively positive and supportive to the ad, the media was quite supporting and the campaign reportedly did really well. So the leading Instagram post notched up 47% engagement and helped the brand secure a 91% increase in followers. So those stats were shared by metrical social data and were referenced in the Marketing Drive article that I pulled this information from.
- [25:44]
B
So this is interesting to me, like the contrast, I guess, in sentiment shift from Paris Hilton to Alex Earle. Do you think that they were targeting a younger consumer following Alex, or at least, you know, in that sphere of Alex's world? Or do you think that they were targeting the male gaze like they were.
- [26:03]
A
With Paris Hilton, 100% targeting a gen Z younger audience? I would argue this ad did dip slightly into the classic tropes of the male gaze, given that Alex Earl is objectively white, skinny, very attractive, she was wearing not a lot of clothes in the ad, but I didn't think it defined the ad. It felt well balanced and it felt like the contextual alignment of working with Alex Earl because of that social presence that she has, the party girl s vibe and also the lean into it being about the hangover the next day. They also made a really clever nod in the commercial where they open with the line, we all know tomorrow is going to be a hot mess, which is the name of Alex Ellis podcast. So it was very clever. I also think the social climate at the moment isn't as sensitive to sexy ads or sex.
- [26:52]
B
Yeah.
- [26:53]
A
Because we've seen and there's such an overexposure on social media. I do think young people aren't as perhaps shocked.
- [27:01]
B
Yeah.
- [27:01]
A
As what it would have been like in the early 2000s.
- [27:04]
B
We're desensitized now. We're seeing it so much.
- [27:07]
A
I do want to wrap up with a quote from Cara Gasparo, who spoke to Marketing Drive and is the vice president of creative strategy at Carl's Jr. S parent company, CKE Restaurants, and what her take on the campaign was. So Kara said, we didn't have a spot in the super bowl, but we had so much buzz on social media between the free giveaway and the campaign itself. A nice fit for us to reintroduce Carl Juniors to a younger audience. So, yes.
- [27:32]
B
Bang on.
- [27:33]
A
Bang on. Yeah.
- [27:34]
B
And I think they did exactly that.
- [27:36]
A
They did.
- [27:37]
B
Also, no one worked harder in the super bowl, aside from the team on the field than Alex.
- [27:42]
A
Oh, my God. That girl did like four or five brand promotions. She seriously got the bag. Mads, we can agree that going out on your own is the most exciting thing you'll ever do and the scariest 100%.
- [27:58]
B
Especially if you've never started a business before. You can get caught up in the what ifs. And the fear of failure can hold you back big time.
- [28:05]
A
Well, our friends at Anz are here to give you the solid foundations and support to take the leap. Just search Anz Business Start right for step by step checklist, business setup, tips, and one on one time with a specialist who can answer your banking questions.
- [28:18]
B
Set up your business right so you can forget the what ifs and focus on what's next.
- [28:22]
A
Thank you so much to Anz for making this episode of Stylish Possible. All right, Mads, I'm really keen to get into what your campaign is.
- [28:34]
B
Yeah. And look, I'm going to give one that I feel like everyone's gonna eye roll in the first 30 seconds. And I want to be honest, there were two that I debated because I wanted to do something that feels relevant now, but also has had the longevity. Like part of me wanted to do Calvin Klein. I was thinking Mark Wahlberg, Brooke Shields, you know, in my Kelvin's more recently, like Justin Bieber and Haley. But I parked that. And I could not deny the cultural significance of Victoria's Secret. And you're probably eye rolling going, yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it. The most obvious sex sells example ever known to man.
- [29:07]
A
But you know what? It is obvious. But it's also still really relevant. People are still talking about it. I constantly see conversations online, particularly as the return of the show has come back in recent years and it's about to come back in the coming months. People are still talking about it. So play all mad stuff.
- [29:24]
B
So for me, it's so important culturally because, I mean, whether you loved it or loathed it, Victoria's Secret sold more than lingerie. They sold fantasy both to women and to men. Men wanted to be with them, women wanted to be them. They sold these women and they sold a lifestyle. And I think it's the ultimate display of sex sells. It was like this triaxi moment of the hottest musical guests with the likes of Justin Timberlake, Kanye Western, Jay Z. We had Harry Styles, chaos mend Rihanna. Like it sounds more like a Grammys red carpet than it does a fashion show. It publicized a fashion show on a main stage. This became prime time entertainment. And these shows were like annual events to people. I think it was a true spectacle of women and of lingerie. And it's almost hard to remember that ultimately they were selling like $18 lace underwear and not, you know, this fantasy and lifestyle of what it meant to be objectively beautiful. And that was these, you know, six foot supermodels who were waxed and glossed within an inch of their life. And there was so much there. And then we kind of shift into the 2000s and tens where it moved away from this glamorized event. And, you know, I'm really glad you brought up Dove, because I think that's probably the perfect signal of that moment in time. And there was this contrast of the two of them, right? We had Dove where it felt like women were owning this narrative. And if they were taking their clothes off and being seen in their underwear, they were owning that and how it was seen. And then Victoria's Secret started to feel less powerful and more objectified and exploitative. And I think that is a real contrast of where Victoria's Secret started to lose its sexy.
- [31:14]
A
It started to lose its sexy, and it also started to lose its relevance because again, the People gained a voice, and the people were happy to share that they did. She didn't feel seen in a lot of Victoria's Secret's campaigns. It undeniably profiled a certain type of look. A skinny, objectively hot white woman was generally the person that they were platforming in their runways, but also in their campaigns. And I really want you to talk about Fenty, because I did sneakily see this in your notes. Yeah, I really want to go into why our bow girl, Riri, not me.
- [31:48]
B
The real to be confused with the real bad gallery. Right.
- [31:51]
A
The OG bad girl reread how she was really, really essential with her Fenty line in showing Victoria's Secret what women actually wanted to say. Can you talk to me about why you put this in the notes?
- [32:04]
B
Well, she showed Victoria's Secret how the it's done. Like, I don't want to swear.
- [32:08]
A
Go for it.
- [32:10]
B
Sorry. Sorry, Mom. Every time. That gal just wanted to bring the essence. Look, the irony is that she did Victoria's Secret, right? So she's been front and center. She's seen it herself. But the reality is these women were also profiled pre show, talking about, you know, these intense, grueling workout routines and devoting the next six months ahead of a show to getting fit and ready to look a certain way. There were rumours of Adriana Lima on liquid diets for, like.
- [32:39]
A
I don't think that was a rumour. I don't think. I'm pretty sure there is a footage of her doing an interview where she admitted that she hadn't eaten solids for a week. I could be mistaken. Allegedly. Let's throw that in the mix.
- [32:50]
B
Allegedly. You know, we'll make sure we're tied up here. But I think what we saw from Rihanna and Savage Fenty is that that is not what women look like, and particularly not in lingerie. We have curves, we have hips, we have lumps and bumps. And that is the reality. Those Victoria's Secret women, by their own accounts, now don't look like that. And I think what Rihanna saw was, how do we have the same sexiness? And the reality is Victoria's Secret shows were sexy. It was just one type of sexy, 1000%. But that essence of the musical guest, of the light show, of the theatrics, was what also made it sexy. So I think what Rihanna took was that allure and that feeling that we had that was then jarred by the fact that we're only defining a singular type of sexy. And when, if I can show all the ways that a Woman and the female form can be sexy while keeping the essence of what at. Clearly one point made Victoria's Secret sexy as a brand and a spectacular performance.
- [33:54]
A
And also, let's not forget Fenty is backed by lvmh, so she would have had the budget to pull out all stops for that show. Now, Matz, I really want to home in on Victoria's Secret right now. They're obviously bringing their show back.
- [34:08]
B
Yeah.
- [34:09]
A
What's your take on how they do this in a way that feels reflective of what our expectations. And when I say our, I mean the zeitgeist women in 2025.
- [34:18]
B
Yeah.
- [34:19]
A
How do they do it in a way that is relevant to now?
- [34:22]
B
I'm really glad you said obviously, because I don't actually think people know it is obviously back because when I was looking through socials, I was like, there's just nowhere near as much convo as I had anticipated there would be for this. But for those who don't know, yes, they are reviving the shows. More importantly, they're reviving the angels. And, you know, they've brought back a lot of heritage angels. And it does signal to me that nostalgia is what's selling at the moment to a degree. But to answer your question about how do they retain relevance and how do they kind of get into the current landscape, I think they're going to have to do a lot more than add in one curve model. And, sorry, it does feel a little bit tokenistic to me right now. It feels like if Dove were to do the exact same campaign, it just wouldn't have the same authenticity. Now. I don't know that by having the nostalgia of the previous angels and bringing in people that tick boxes for them now feels authentic.
- [35:22]
A
I also want to look back on the early 2000s and acknowledge that a lot of the sexualization of women eroded trust with women, and it's really hard to recover. It's been quite some time. Victoria's Secret has done some work, but there are still a lot of us who feel really, I'm going to be honest, isolated and ostracized by the brand from those early years. It's going to take more than, as you said, a few models to really see a shift in sentiment, but also, for me, a shift in trust. How do I gain trust for this brand, particularly in a landscape, landscape where I also have other brands who, from the get go, have represented all women? We've touched on Fenty Skims, another brand who is absolutely dominating the lingerie space and from its core, has always been inclusive. They have a tough market to claw their way back, and I am not convinced that it's going to work. So this year, the show is returning, I believe, for a 33rd time. It will be really interesting. Interesting to see the social metrics and how it sits with the consumer and whether or not it does actually have an impact.
- [36:32]
B
Yeah. And I'm intrigued to see where it does, and I'd love to pick it back up in one of our apps. Where does it land?
- [36:39]
A
Yeah, we can have a really honest conversation about what. What the sentiment online is, because for me, that is really where we're going to tap into culturally. How are people responding to this? And then how is that also setting the trend for what's to come, particularly in a brand and marketing space?
- [36:55]
B
Totally.
- [36:55]
A
All right, I do want to wrap up with a final closing question for you, Mads.
- [37:00]
B
Yeah.
- [37:01]
A
Do you think sexy is back?
- [37:04]
B
I think sexy never left. I think we're just seeing more of it. I think sexy is being redefined at the moment, and that's what's exploding. Sexy is no longer about selling to men. It is saying, I own my space and here I am. And I think it's best summarized by that TikTok trend that I've also been seeing, which is remembering I'm the first in my bloodline too. And I think a lot about what sexy means. For me, this is probably the most sexy as a female I've ever felt. And I don't think that's a coincidence in the current cultural zeitgeist. But for me, I'm not trying to fit a mold of sexy or to do it for a man. I don't look for the male gaze. And yet it's probably the most that what I am doing would lend to a male gaze. So the irony's not lost on me that those two things can kind of coexist. But I love at the moment that it is. It's for you. Despite attention being the ultimate currency for social right now.
- [38:02]
A
I agree. From a brand perspective, sexy works when it's empowering. It's aligned with the culture. And for me, it's culturally aware as well. It's not trying to be forceful. Where it doesn't work is when it feels cheap.
- [38:19]
B
Yep.
- [38:20]
A
It feels hollow, tone deaf, or deliberately repositioning itself from the male gaze. I just don't think in this current climate that is going to sit well, particularly with people like us who, as you said, are really embracing that sexiness and that liberation. It's just not gonna land and Brands need to be taking note of that.
- [38:43]
B
I agree. And for me, it's being really clear who's behind the curtain and who's in front of it. And I wanna know personally that it's women in both instances. Otherwise, it does feel disingenuous or it does feel exploitive. I think we're really educated now. We see it straight away, and people.
- [39:00]
A
Are asking those questions. People wanna know who is in the boardroom making those decisions, who were in the meetings coming up with these ideas, and do they reflect young people? Do they reflect a diverse group of people? Because that's an important consideration. And I do feel consumers are smart now and they're asking those questions just like we are.
- [39:19]
B
Yeah. And I guess my only concern in all of this is right now. I think for social media and for the Zeitgeist, attention is the ultimate currency. And my only concern is that the pressures that Taylor Swift spoke about in that doco, Miss Americana, that women need to reinvent themselves or they need to look and feel a certain way. I never want sexy as an empowering tool to be the expectation and that it feels the only way to get attention or to continue to stay relevant personally or culturally when we look at these A listers is that it is via sexy, unless that is what you want to be.
- [39:58]
A
It has to feel authentic. It can't feel forced. It's just not going to work that way. One consideration we also have to make is when you are advertising to a global audience, you have to consider the different religious responses, the different political, cultural. Cultural. All people don't have the same response. So there can be wildly different interpretations of sexual content.
- [40:22]
B
And I think a brand being really clear about who their target market is and what they're trying to say to them is really important. And that's where I think it matters and where you're showing that content.
- [40:32]
A
All right, that's all for this new fortnightly episode of Stylish, focusing on brand and marketing. Mads, I loved this chat. It felt like one of the deeper episodes we've done in the last few fortnights. So I'm really excited to continue these conversations. And remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-ishameless media.com or you can slide into our DMS over at Stylish Podcast. And we can't forget to thank the shameless media team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt and senior podcast producer Kate Emma Burke. We will be back with you in a fortnight. See you then, guys.
- [41:08]
B
Safe travels to Sydney, right?
- [41:09]
A
Thank you. This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be. Aboriginal land, foreign.
- [41:29]
C
Here. I'm the host of Inherited, and this week, Inherited has a big week of guests. That's why I'm popping up in your feed right now. I want to tell you a bit about my conversation with Little Mix's Jade Thurwell. She's just released her solo album, that's Showbiz, Baby. And I was so lucky enough to speak to her about the early days of Little Mix and how her rise to fame shaped her as a person. Here's a quick snippet from our conversation.
- [41:52]
A
It was hard because I think my family also obviously didn't know how to deal with that. You know, we were from a very small, working class town and all of a sudden, like, everyone knew who they were as well. I was talking about them and knew where we lived. And so that was intense. And, you know, I had to learn very quickly that things might happen that weren't fair.
- [42:13]
C
I also had the chance to sit down with Mitch Brown. Look, Mitch likely needs no introduction. A few weeks ago, his interview with the Daily Aus made worldwide news and AFL history when he came out as the first openly male bisexual player. Here is a sneak peek of our conversation.
- [42:30]
D
I got a phone call a couple hours after the interview from the Governor General of Australia, SAM, and it's 129 years. It is a bit of a moment. And for some clubs to miss the opportunity, not about me, not to make it about me. I'd never asked for a photo of me or say my name, but missed an opportunity to acknowledge and recognise the wholeness of their community, the queer community, the queer members in their community and the value they hold in making their environment, the club environment and their community, so special. And I think that was missed by a few clubs. But when I say missed, there's still opportunity.
- [43:15]
C
You can listen to both of these interviews in full, just search Inherited on your favorite podcast app. And we're on Instagram and TikTok at Inherited the Pod. We'll be back with another episode next Tuesday, so we'll see you then.