The Balenciaga scandal two years on

Summary

Style-ish Podcast Episode Summary: "The Balenciaga Scandal Two Years On"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Style-ish
• Host/Author: Shameless Media
• Description: Style-ish is the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business, and beauty.
• Episode: The Balenciaga Scandal Two Years On
• Release Date: December 3, 2024

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1. Introduction

The episode opens with hosts Joanna Fleming, Maddie Sullivanthorpe, and Annika Joshi Smith gearing up to discuss scandals in the fashion industry, specifically focusing on the Balenciaga controversy that erupted in November 2022. Joanna sets the stage by emphasizing the two-year milestone since the scandal and outlines the plan to dissect how the events unfolded, Balenciaga's responses, and the brand's current standing.

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2. Affordable Recommendations Segment

Before delving into the main topic, the hosts share their favorite affordable finds of the year, adding a personal touch and maintaining engagement.

• Annika's Recommendation:

  • Product: Uniqlo Men's Airism Tee
  • Price: $25
  • Highlights: Comfortable fit and versatile style.
  • Notable Quote:
    • Annika at [01:34]: “It’s good weight, it’s a great fit... It’s $25.”

• Joanna's Cleaning Tips:

  • Products: Moisture absorbers and Glass Guard
  • Sources: Amazon
  • Highlights: Effective for reducing mold and maintaining a dry environment.
  • Notable Quote:
    • Joanna at [02:43]: “These moisture absorbers change your life, especially over winter.”

---

3. Overview of the Balenciaga Scandal

Joanna introduces the main discussion, recounting how Balenciaga faced a severe PR crisis due to two controversial campaigns released in November 2022. The hosts explore the nature of these campaigns, the public's reaction, and the broader implications for the brand.

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4. Detailed Analysis of the Scandals

a. The Gift Shop Campaign

Balenciaga's "Gift Shop" holiday campaign featured teddy bear handbags adorned with leather harnesses, lace underwear, padlocks, and dog collars. The images included children modeling these items, which immediately raised concerns.

• Key Points:
  • Photographer: Gabriel Galamberti, known for the innocent "Toy Stories" project.
  • Controversy: Children depicted with items suggesting adult themes, leading to public outrage.
  • Notable Quote:
    • Annika at [17:20]: “The teddy bears look like possessed demons...”

b. The Guard Robe Campaign

Released five days after the Gift Shop campaign, this series featured high-profile models like Bella Hadid and Nicole Kidman. A particular handbag in the campaign displayed a stack of papers that were actual copies of a 2008 Supreme Court decision on child pornography laws.

• Key Points:
  • Issue: Inclusion of real legal documents referencing child pornography.
  • Additional Controversies: Props linked to child molestation cases surfaced in the background.
  • Notable Quote:
    • Joanna at [24:33]: “What’s that? It’s far too grown up for these sweet little babies.”

---

5. Public and Celebrity Response

The backlash was swift and severe, with social media users expressing outrage, celebrities distancing themselves, and even physical defacements of Balenciaga stores.

• Key Points:
  • Celebrity Reactions: Kim Kardashian condemned the campaigns, emphasizing child safety.
  • Public Outcry: Social media exploded with criticism, leading to protest actions like shoe burnings.
  • Notable Quote:
    • Anika at [25:43]: “The gravity of child abuse shouldn’t be ignored in this discussion.”

---

6. Balenciaga’s Response and Legal Actions

Balenciaga issued apologies via Instagram, condemning the misuse of their campaigns and stating their commitment to child safety. They also filed a $25 million lawsuit against the production company responsible for the Guard Robe campaign but dropped it a week later.

• Key Points:
  • Apologies: Issued on November 24, 2022, addressing both campaigns separately.
  • Legal Measures: Initially blamed the production company, later retracting the lawsuit.
  • Notable Quote:
    • Joanna at [34:17]: “Balenciaga’s CEO announced new measures including a new board for image approval.”

---

7. The Aftermath and Brand Recovery

Two years post-scandal, Balenciaga has made a surprising comeback, reintegrating into mainstream fashion and maintaining strong sales figures despite lingering public resentment.

• Key Points:

  • Sales Growth: From $350 million in sales pre-Demna to approximately $2 billion by 2022.
  • Industry Support: Influential figures like Anna Wintour have publicly supported Demna, aiding in the brand’s resurgence.
  • Notable Quote:
    • Annika at [40:03]: “Anna Wintour personally endorsing Demna and inviting him back to the Met Gala.”

• Financial Impact:

  • Kering’s Reports: Indicated improved trends in North America and Western Europe, with reinvestments in communications to mitigate the scandal's impact.
  • Notable Quote:
    • Annika at [40:51]: “Kering reported that trends improved significantly for Balenciaga in key markets.”

---

8. Current Perception and Future Prospects

While Balenciaga has regained a significant foothold in the fashion industry, debates continue regarding the ethical implications of their actions and whether the brand can fully recover its reputation.

• Key Points:

  • Public Opinion: Mixed reactions with some forgiving and others holding a grudge.
  • Celebrity Endorsements: Continued support from high-profile figures bolsters the brand’s image.
  • Notable Quote:
    • Annika at [48:05]: “He’s a genius who took a brand from 350 million to 2 billion.”

• Host Reflections:

  • The hosts express ongoing discomfort with the brand but acknowledge its undeniable influence and recovery.

---

9. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with the hosts reflecting on the complexities of brand accountability versus business interests. They invite listeners to share their opinions on whether Balenciaga has truly redeemed itself and how such controversies shape the fashion industry's landscape.

• Notable Quote:
  • Annika at [48:27]: “Are people just like, we can still appreciate those moments prior to this?”

---

10. Outro and Acknowledgments

The hosts thank their team and encourage audience interaction via email and social media. They also acknowledge the podcast's recording location, emphasizing respect for Aboriginal land.

• Notable Quote:
  • Joanna at [49:46]: “This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.”

---

Key Takeaways:

• Balenciaga’s Crisis: Two simultaneous campaigns in 2022 led to severe public backlash due to inappropriate and alarming imagery involving children.
• Brand Recovery: Despite the scandal, Balenciaga managed to regain its market position through strategic reinvestments and high-profile endorsements.
• Ethical Considerations: The episode underscores the tension between artistic expression in fashion and ethical responsibility, particularly concerning child safety.
• Industry Implications: Balenciaga's case highlights the potential consequences of lapses in oversight within large fashion houses and the complex interplay between brand image and business survival.

---

Quotes for Reference:

• Annika at [17:20]: “The teddy bears look like possessed demons...”
• Joanna at [24:33]: “What’s that? It’s far too grown up for these sweet little babies.”
• Anika at [25:43]: “The gravity of child abuse shouldn’t be ignored in this discussion.”
• Joanna at [34:17]: “Balenciaga’s CEO announced new measures including a new board for image approval.”
• Annika at [40:03]: “Anna Wintour personally endorsing Demna and inviting him back to the Met Gala.”
• Annika at [40:51]: “Kering reported that trends improved significantly for Balenciaga in key markets.”
• Annika at [48:05]: “He’s a genius who took a brand from 350 million to 2 billion.”
• Annika at [48:27]: “Are people just like, we can still appreciate those moments prior to this?”
• Joanna at [49:46]: “This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.”

---

This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the "The Balenciaga Scandal Two Years On" episode, detailing the events, reactions, and lasting impact of the controversy on the fashion brand.

Transcript

[Joanna Fleming]

Foreign.

[Maddie Sullivanthorpe]

This episode of Stylish is brought to you by ebay. Make money turning your pre loved thing into a re loved thing.

[Joanna Fleming]

This is Stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business and beauty. My name's Joanna Fleming, my co host Maddie Sullivanthorpe and Annika Joshi Smith. Are we ready to talk about some scandals today, ladies?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

We love a scandal.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

We love to spill the tea, so.

[Joanna Fleming]

Anything for a gossip. I feel like this is this, this and yap, whatever that.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

The same yap. I love that. I feel like we just need like a cheeky little vena when I'm like, ready.

[Joanna Fleming]

Are we allowed? We should be allowed to have wine in here. I don't see why we couldn't.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

We are such good law abiding citizens to this shameless media.

[Joanna Fleming]

We record it on Monday afternoon, so it's a little premature in the week, but yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Oh, maybe in the last recording of the year.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Glass of champagne wouldn't hurt anyone.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

You'll really see us like up the antenna.

[Joanna Fleming]

Maybe some wet pussy shots as well.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

We're here again for another week, my lord.

[Joanna Fleming]

So today, as I mentioned, we're tracing two very divisive campaigns that sent luxury fashion house Balenciaga into an absolute PR crisis back in November 2022. That time has flown. I feel like that was yesterday.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

We'll unpack how the scandals happened, what Balenciaga's response was and what the reception to the brand is now two years on. But first, we're going to swap in our favourite affordable recommendations of the year. Mads, I'm going to ask you first, what's yours?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

So I've swapped this in before. It is the Uniqlo men's airism tee at $25. I love this T shirt so much and I don't think I've ever been DMed about anything as much as I have about this T shirt. What T shirt is it? What's the style name? Can you send me the link? It's just such a good tee. It's. It's good weight, It's a great fit. My mum hates it, which is amazing tech. She rang me the other week, she was out shopping and she was like, is there anything you need while I'm out and about? And I was like, look, if you go past a Uniqlo, I would just love you to pick me up two men's, a size small, white. And when she handed me the bag, she said, anyone? You're single, you are wearing men's T shirts. So that's mine. $25.

[Joanna Fleming]

It's a great one.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Annika.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Honestly, this one's for my doe eyed girlies. I have had such a hectic year. I feel like I'm always running on, like, empty and I get such dark under circles under my eyes. Like, I wish these bags were Chanel, but they ain't good for me. So one of my makeup artists, actually, when I was getting my makeup done, one of them. Sorry, I just got that.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Sounds like you've got a glammy squad. You're one of my makeup artists.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I watch way too much Real Housewives, you guys. Now, I think I'm dory, but anyway, recommended to me that I always just invest, invest in a color corrector. And so I bought the Nars one, which is exactly 50. It's creamy, it's radiant, and it just kind of covers all those undertones. But Jo actually taught me a really hot tip that you can use a blush. So the NARS is 50. But Jo, you might have an affordable option for me.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Well, you have a good budget too.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Who am I?

[Joanna Fleming]

Any cream or liquid would work. I'm sure you could just anything ready to Priceline and find something. Yeah, yeah, Anything that you can melt in under the eyes.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Make sure to prep the area. It'll work.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah. That is my hot tip. And I like, swear by I will not go anywhere now without my color corrector.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, I'd say it's working because I've never looked at you and thought you've got dark circles under your eyes.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Thank you. So I actually really, really resonates with my hands on me levels on a Monday.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

So go NARS Color corrective concealer.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah, give me a buzz.

[Joanna Fleming]

Can I give you guys some cleaning ones?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, go on. I love these.

[Joanna Fleming]

I don't have a fashionable beauty one. My tastes are pretty expensive most of the time in that category. But I have a lot of affordable cleaning recommendations for you. My first one is going to be moisture absorbers from Amazon. So this particular product is like a container that has these moisture absorbing crystals in it. And so if your windows are really prone to condensation and creating mold on your blinds, these will change your life. Especially if you don't want to buy a dehumidifier or humidifier. I don't know which one it is, but if you don't want to buy one of those for every room in the house, because I don't have a fan in my laundry either. So I'd need to be moving this humidifier dehumidifier around all the time. So I just have these moisture absorbers which you can refill. You can get refillable ones, so they're a little bit more economical and they absorb the moisture that's in the air. So I use them over winter because they fill up so quickly. Like over a few weeks, they're full of water. And they just really help with reducing mold on the blinds and just keeping the room from being so damp. So that is one of my recommendations. When I posted about this on my Instagram, people were like, oh, my God, we need the link. So I will give the link link to Kate to put in the episode notes. The other one is called Glass Guard. I have this. Did you buy this because of me? No.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Oh, you had a girlfriend told me about this, but carry on.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

No, no, I feel left out. Tell me.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay, so. So Glass Guard is a mold remover for silicon. So you know how mold gets stuck into silicon and nothing will get it out. I'm telling you, this product gets it out. I have used it in my shower so many times, but it actually lasts. So the last time I used it was probably six months ago.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

The amount of people that I have gotten this product on, I post TikToks about it, I post Instagram stories about it. I love this stuff. So if you tend to get mold in the shower anywhere, really, if you have areas where you've got silicon that are affected by mold, great. Yeah, great hack.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Honestly, this whole brand is game changer. I went a little bit deeper. I don't know if this is within the $50 realm, but I bought like their entire electric cleaner pack and I'm.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Guess It's outside the $50.

[Joanna Fleming]

I was going to say I also have one of those things. It's not that brand.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

James is like, you are the weirdest freak. I've never seen someone get more excited to clean your bar. And I'm like, honey, I'm like getting strapped in and I'll be in there for like the next eight hours. Like sink.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah, I've also got one of those brushes.

[Joanna Fleming]

I can also link that as well. I think my one was under 50 bucks. I reckon it was like 40 maybe.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

The way that this is a business brand and beauty podcast and the. You two have spent longer talking about cleaning than we do on some headlines.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

We literally just bonded on another label.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Jo is taking us through trace today, where, as I mentioned, we are a podcast for business. Brandon Beatty, you may have thought you'd stumbled across a different podcast with the same three hosts no, no, this is still stylish, but today we are talking about Balenciaga, and we are talking about the two scandals that plagued the brand in November 2022. Exactly two years ago. Joe, take it away.

[Joanna Fleming]

Now, before we do dive into this one, I do want to give a content warning for this segment as it does contain discussion of child sexual abuse in relation to these campaigns that we're going to be talking about. I want to ask you to whether you own anything from Balenciaga. I know you do. Arnica, how many pieces, roughly, would you have from the brand?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I think I have purchased maybe four pieces, full price, and then secondhand, too.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay. Mads, do you own anything from the brand?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I have two pieces from the brand.

[Joanna Fleming]

And are we still wearing these pieces now?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Unfortunately, yes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I'm not. And I'm really firm on this. When a brand really, really does something for me that I kind of feel misaligned with, and I don't want to give too much away here.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Good girl.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, same thing with Dolce and Gabbana. I owned a piece from them, and there was some controversies. They made some comments around ivf and, yeah, I won't wear that brand since.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, well, we know that the world of luxury fashion is plagued by a lot of controversies, as you just mentioned, Dr. Che Kmanna. That's a whole other controversy we could get into. But it seems like these are often a result of complete oversights that seem kind of crazy. Like, how did you miss that from the inside? And how are we the ones that are identifying this from the outside? Like, why is no one internally calling this out before it goes live? For example, in 2019, Gucci released a balaclava that many claim resembled blackface. And that same year, they also debuted a culturally insensitive headscarf dubbed the Indie Full Turban. Not surprisingly, both those items were later pulled from sale. But do we think anyone got fired for signing those ones off?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I honestly hope so. There is no excuse for this sort of behavior, like, period, especially in, like, the multicultural society that we all live in. It's kind of like what you were just saying. You have those major, like, how the fuck did this go out there? How did this even happen? Which I think makes this whole topic so interesting.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, well, Gucci aren't alone. Also in 2019, Burberry released a sweater that featured a noose hanging from the neckline. Instead of making an apology, the brand later said that design was inspired by a nautical theme, but the public weren't really convinced on that one.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

The spin doctors were spinning.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, I've seen that sweatshirt. There's no way that was a naughty. Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

While these scandals made waves on social media, they were quickly eclipsed by newer, bigger controversies, as they always are. They caught the attention of a small, passionate audience and then quickly forgotten. But in 2022, a luxury fashion house, not just one, but two missteps that catapulted them not only into mainstream headlines, but alt right conspiracy theorist outlets too. We're talking about the brand that bought us the $2,000 Ikea tote chip packet, clutch bags and stiletto crocs. Lest we forget, none other than Balenciaga. But did Balenciaga mean to shock the world this time around? And who actually signed off, as we've questioned on these errors that sent the brand into major damage control? So it's been two years since those scandals and we're going to be tracing that today. But what are our lingering feelings prior to revisiting the details? Did either of you really follow this at the time? Mads, I know that you have followed it. Anika, were you following this too, being like, oh, should I be maybe packing these away into storage for a while?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

It was one of those situations where my jaw was literally on the floor. Like, everyone I knew was in shock seeing this unfold in front of our eyes. And I mean, this isn't the first time Demna, the creative director, has been subject to public scrutiny. Like, there have been numerous occasions where he has always wanted to push the boundaries, but this was a situation where it went just too far. Like, it is so wrong on so many levels. And again, I just. We come back to that same point where it's like, how was this aoked by Kering, who was like a multimillion dollar luxury conglomerate that actually got this out? And how did this actually even make it in front of all of us for public viewing?

[Joanna Fleming]

It feels too purposeful for me.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah, I just have so many questions around it.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I think much like when you wake up on a Monday feeling like you might have the second day hangover, I feel like that lingering, icky feeling about it, which I'm saddened by because I think Balenciaga as a house is one. I have tremendous respect for the heritage of their designs and some of the most beautiful sort of iconic fashion moments can be attributed to them. And yeah, yeah, I followed it so intensely. I feel like every day I was checking Diet Prada on Instagram, TikTok Business of Fashion, and it kind of felt like every day something was unraveling. Or a new piece of information was being unearthed. But, yeah, I don't. I don't feel as outraged as I probably did in 2022, but I do feel. And a lingering ickiness would be my word.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Well, speaking of the heritage of the brand, let's jump into the start of our timeline here. Balenciaga was founded in the year 1919 by a Spanish designer called Cristobal Balenciaga Demna Vasalia that you just mentioned. Annika is the current creative director and started that job in 2015. Can you guys think of some of his best or most memorable collections since then?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I honestly just go back to, like, post everything, like post 2022 and everything kind of transpiring and just how Kim Kardashian has become like the brand. Like, she has been the face of the campaigns. She has been head to toe Balenciaga, just numerous events, and then the next moment that will always stand out to me was the most random but kind of fitting collab with Erawan, which was, like, very LA. They took over, like, the streets of LA in 2023 for one of their Runway shows, and it, like, you know, overpriced everything.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, I think collection wise, they had a really beautiful collection for fall winter 2016. It was the women's wear collection, and I loved that it had so many nods to, I guess, the heritage of the house. And they were kind of in unexpected ways. So a lot of silhouettes done in the same format, but in denim or, you know, blazers that were shortened, but very much, like, inspired by where the house had been. And I think it outraged a lot of people because it was kind of paired with, like, you know, some plaid patterning or sneakers and things, things like that, or Crocs that felt a little unexpected. But I do think there were some really iconic pieces that came out of that. And then Also fall winter 2017, men's was kind of when we started to see the introduction of the rather iconic now, like, Balenciaga iconography. And, you know, like the blue tee with the, like, it almost looked like a political slogan or like a campaign, you know, statement slogan that I feel like has really become a hallmark of the house in this period.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, I must say it's probably the first time I really saw the brand, like, really out there at that time, that era. Well, with Demner at the helm, Balenciaga sales skyrocketed. When he arrived as creative director, the sales hovered around the 350 million mark. But by 2022, their sales reportedly came in at about 2 billion making Demna Balenciaga's golden child. Until he wasn't. But first, let's hear a word from today's sponsor.

[Unnamed Speaker 2]

Ri. Let me ask you this. Have you ever considered parting ways with pieces from your wardrobe but assume no one would actually want to buy them?

[Maddie Sullivanthorpe]

I think about this all the time. So many of my pieces feel like they're unique to my style. Even though I won't wear them anymore, they stay in my wardrobe, taking up space for far longer than they actually should.

[Unnamed Speaker 2]

I actually think so many people can relate to this. But today's sponsor, ebay is here to remind us that there's always someone on the other side who wants to buy the items sitting in your wardrobe. Whether you're into vintage tees, denim, high end labels or high street trends.

[Maddie Sullivanthorpe]

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[Unnamed Speaker 2]

Honestly, Ebay takes the hard work out of selling your pre loved fashion. For example, they offer printer free pickup and delivery via send all their magic listing tool helps take the hassle out of writing your description. And they even have seller protections for sticky situations that are out of your control.

[Maddie Sullivanthorpe]

Just a note that the printer free pickup service is only offered by sendor in selected areas, so TNCs do apply. I can already think of a few things loose that I could part ways with that might earn me some extra cash before Christmas.

[Unnamed Speaker 2]

Such a good idea. Thank you so much to ebay for making this episode of stylish possible.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay, so let's get into the scandal, shall we? In November of 2022, Balenciaga debuted their gift shop holiday campaign. Do you guys remember this?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Do I ever.

[Joanna Fleming]

It's pretty self explanatory. Gift shop was basically a collection of accessories or kind of, you could say lower price point items that the brand was positioning as being great ideas for gifting over the holiday season. So we had like mugs, dog bowls, hair clips, candlesticks, all Balenciaga themed or with the logo on them. But there was one item included in the gift shop that gave people pause and ended up being the catalyst for this first scandal. Earlier in 2022, Balenciaga debuted a collection of teddy bear handbags, which sounds cute except they were clad in leather harnesses and lace underwear and padlocks and dog collars.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, I mean these, these bears look like possessed demons in a way. Like little sexual possessed demon bears.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, definitely giving that. So the bear made a return for the gift shop campaign, which is where the real problem lay in that campaign shoot the bear bags were modeled, I guess you could say, by young children. The gift shop campaign was shot by Italian photographer Gabriel Galamberti, which is going to make sense as I talk about his background. So Gabriel was best known for a project titled Toy Stories, where he photographed children from all over the world with their favorite toys. It's actually really sweet. Like, there's nothing weird about that campaign. The photos have the kids pictured, like, in the background and then all their toys flat laid in front of them. It's really cute. I'll show you a couple of these images just so that you guys can see and maybe you can describe these to the listeners if I haven't explained that clearly.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah, they are. They're clearly like, staged, and it's almost like everything is perfectly set out in, like, a very uniform kind of fashion. The children, interestingly, don't look that happy to be here. There's that.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, yeah. It's quite sweet, though. I mean, we've got like, Thomas the Tank Engine, we've got cars, and, like, I can't remember, Lightning McQueen. I think his name is from Cars. I'm really testing my kids theory here. Like, there's Spider Man. Annika's right. The kids look absolutely miserable. But aside from that, quite sweet pictures.

[Joanna Fleming]

There's no gothic sexual teddy bears. No, there's toys. Yeah. Nothing sinister.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I wouldn't say there's a BDSM little bear.

[Joanna Fleming]

No, there is not. But Balenciaga hired Gabriel to photograph the gift shop campaign, but they wanted him to use the exact same concept as the Toy Stories project. Right. Because they wanted to display the alongside the Balenciaga products. And after the campaign was released, Gabriel told the press that the only directive he received from Balenciaga was that the theme was punk. And it was also his first ever fashion campaign. So, oh, sweet Gabriel, way to ruin your reputation. But now that we've seen Gabriel's original work, let's take a look at the gift shop images so that we can compare, like, for, like, what they look like.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

To be fair, the kids look a little happier.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I know. I was like, oh, they actually look like they're having quite a good time. Little do they know.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

The best way to describe these is he's totally replicated the same concept.

[Joanna Fleming]

As we've said, it's a situation. I think I've seen this film before. Like, it really is.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And I didn't like the ending.

[Joanna Fleming]

Exactly. The campaign is a direct replica of the Toy Stories project, but Balenciaga themed. Would you guys agree?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I agree.

[Joanna Fleming]

Does it strike you guys as inappropriate when you first look at it?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I think when you first look at it, your eyes are, like, darting around at all of the objects. Like, I don't think immediately your eye is drawn to what did become the controversy of the children holding these bears that were sexual looking bears or sexual insinuation. I think you're kind of darting around, and then when it sort of does dawn on you, it suddenly feels quite uncomfortable to look at because these are really young kids. Like, I. I wouldn't say any of these kids look over six.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

At most. And they're holding these bears that have got, like, chokers and chains and mesh tops. Like, I mean, it looks more like, you know, a sexy nightclub outfit than a. I agree.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I think that when you kind of dissect it and when you actually look at each image, you kind of start to go, hang on a second. What's that? And then you take a little bit like, of a closer look, and everything kind of just feels like the innocence of children is not really being protected here. And once you kind of start reading into it a bit more and your imagination's obviously going a little wild. To me, I just feel like it looks very dark. It feels far too grown up for these sweet little babies. And then it just kind of brings everyone back to that point, like, okay, like, what the fuck is going on here? This is, like, not okay on any level.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, yeah. And I think fashion brands are constantly pushing the boundaries. I think we see it a lot. They want to provoke conversation and sometimes shock. I think this is probably just an example of a time when that shock was taken way too far.

[Joanna Fleming]

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when they were going through the casting process for this and expl this concept to the parents of these children. Because surely when this controversy came out, they would have been like, whoa, okay, this is not what we.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

They would have been showing the original images.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, this is what we'll be doing. Yeah, maybe.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I think it is worth noting that it is very, very possible, had the gift shop campaign gone live in isolation and the second campaign not have gone out in such close proximity, that the notice or the chatter, the outrage may not have been as substantial as it was.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

But I do think it is the close proximity, the compounded outrage. I guess all of these, as we've been kind of calling them coincidences of linkage to child sexual abuse, I think that is what elicited the response.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

But controversial or not, I do think that the gift Shop campaign, maybe in isolation, would have raised eyebrows, but certainly not the outrage that we saw for the whole thing.

[Joanna Fleming]

So the gift shop campaign went live on the 16th of November in 2022, and it obviously didn't take long for people to get really pissed off about it. But before we dive into the response, let's cover the second campaign. Balenciaga launched the same month, which really compounded everything. So five days later, Balenciaga released its its 2023 guard robe campaign, which featured Bella Hadid, Isabella Huppett and Nicole Kidman. The campaign was shot months earlier, reportedly in July 2022 in a new York City office space. And one of the products featured in the campaign was a Balenciaga and Adidas hourglass handbag, which was photographed alongside a stack of papers. But it was this particular stack of papers that sent the Internet into an absolute tailspin. In a very interesting turn of events, those papers featured in the handbag image were actually printed copies of a real 2008 Supreme Court decision. The U.S. versus Williams case that was printed out, examined whether laws against pandering, which in this instance means promoting child pornography, violated freedom of speech rights in the United States. Gosh, why was that a prop to start with? How, like, how did that even get there?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

It is so hard to plead ignorant when you are seeing some common things in such a short space of time pop up. Like, I can't see past that.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I think as well, though, what we do need to think about are all of the agencies and external groups that are brought in to bring a campaign.

[Joanna Fleming]

To life, and we are going to touch on that for sure.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And I am not excusing anyone for this because this is not something that you want ending up in your campaign.

[Joanna Fleming]

No.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I think, though, the amount of eyeballs that would have seen this, it's incredible. This wasn't picked up. I am sure that there are so many people who still go to bed at night wishing that they did pick this up. But there is a lot of faith that are put into prop designers, costume designers. You have a set designer who is going and sourcing, you know, locations and all of the things that you're going to have around it. So it's not always Balenciaga going, this is the desk that we're going to have and this is the chair, and that is the, you know, I don't know, lamp that's gonna be in the background of the shot. But they are given all of those things when you are doing a marketing shoot to approve. It's just sometimes they're done in a totality verse individual items. And you know, I've approved props on a set before and I don't know that I would Google every piece of paper that I saw that was gonna be in the background, but I do think if they were perhaps legal looking papers, I would maybe do some digging.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, I don't recall at the time, I don't know if you guys do, whether there's any, like, input from Adidas around this controversy. I don't remember them like making a statement or anything at the time.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah, no, I don't recall because it.

[Joanna Fleming]

Was a Balenciaga and Adidas collab that.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Was photographed and they're still working together now.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, yeah, interesting. Anyway, so just to reiterate, in the space of a week, Balenciaga released images of children posing alongside teddy bears in leather harnesses and with empty wine glasses. And they used real court documents regarding child pornography laws to promote a handbag. So odd to say the least. But in addition to the court documents, some of the other props from the guard robe campaign were also rather weird. The Guardian reported. In the background of another shot is a coffee table book of the work of artist Michael Boorman's, whose Fire from the sun paintings include images of naked toddlers engaged in what the gallerist David Zwerner describes as as playful but mysterious acts with sinister overtones. In one of the other images, a fake college certificate featured the name John Phillip Fisher. And after the campaign went live, Internet sleuths quickly uncovered a News article from 2018 about a Michigan man of the same name who was charged with molesting his granddaughter.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I feel so uncomfortable. Like, remind me again why Balenciaga hasn't been cancelled.

[Joanna Fleming]

Well, I think the debate here is, are they still cancelled? Because, Mads, like, you're no longer wearing your pieces. Unique. Maybe wearing them maybe, like this will change your mind about the brand and maybe it will change a lot of people's minds about the brands, knowing these really specific details around it.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And I just think as well, what we're talking about is the most grotesque, tragic thing that can happen to a child. And I think the gravity of that shouldn't be ignored in this discussion. And. And there's a lot of things that were deemed coincidences and very unlucky coincidences. And I think that's a hard thing to stomach when they've all happened so closely together and so many different touch points from separate shoots to different props. Like, we're not talking about one isolated incident. And so it compounds personally for me yeah, and it feels like, not necessarily the teddy bear shots for sure, but I think the others feel like they were trying to be subliminal.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And it feels like it needed Internet sleuths to uncover it. And I think that is, for me, almost more uncomfortable than something that feels as obvious as the teddy bear images.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Totally.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And I think for very good reason. The public did not respond well.

[Joanna Fleming]

No, they definitely did not. And controversial Twitter or x user and YouTuber June Nicole of the first to connect the two campaigns together. Her original tweet kicked off a wave of social media commentary. It read, the brand Balenciaga just did a interesting photo shoot for their new products recently, which included a very purposely poorly hidden document about virtual child porn. The tweet was shared alongside images from both campaigns, including a zoomed in image of the Supreme Court ruling. And as news of the scandal spread on TikTok, former Balenciaga devotees set the brand's shoes on fire. They destroyed handbags with scissors. It was just a bloodbath. And within a few days, outrage had built to fever pitch and the news of the scandal migrated to right leaning media outlets. Do we remember QAnon or would we prefer to forget?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I definitely remember QAnon.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. For those who missed it, QAnon was and still is a conspiracy theory surrounding the belief that a group of satanic elites are responsible for a global child sex trafficking ring. And these satanic elites are largely seen to be Democrats conspiring to control politics and the media. There's a lot more to it than that, but we just, we don't have the time to explore that at length at the moment. QAnon originated in 2017, but took off around the world during COVID lockdowns. Obviously there's a bit of a thread there. This means by November 2022, conservatives were eager to report on anything they thought proved these QAnon conspiracies, which is where Balenciaga enters the chat. On 22 November, Fox News anchor and right wing commentator Tucker Carlson gave his two cents, telling his audience, here you have a major international retail brand promoting kiddie porn and sex with children and not promoting it subtly, but right out in the open. And on the 24th of November, Balenciaga broke their silence, finally sharing this statement to their Instagram stories. We sincerely apologise for any offence our holiday campaign may have caused. Our plush bear bags should not have been featured with children in this campaign. We have immediately removed the campaign from all platforms. And then hours later, they addressed the Supreme Court documents in the Guard Robe campaign sharing an initial story. And I don't know why they didn't just do these in one, but they shared an additional story that read, we apologise for displaying unsettling documents in our campaign. We take this matter very seriously and are taking legal action against the parties responsible for creating the set and including unapproved items for our spring 23 campaign photo shoot. We strongly condemn abuse of children in any form. We stand for children's safety and wellbeing. So, yes, to kind of loop back to what we spoke about earlier around production teams and set designers, Balenciaga claimed that the production company that coordinated the Guard Robe shoot were the ones to select the Supreme Court documents without their approval. But I just don't know how realistic that is. Like, how could this fashion giant fail to check the contents of a document or, like, even just glance at it? I feel like even a glance would have identified, like, oh, fuck, that's a bit weird. Like, let's. Let's take that out of the shot. Or like, can we get a different piece of scrap paper? Like, is this really. Does it need to have weird subliminal messaging on it? Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

And for someone to be able to actually zoom in and pick it up. Just an observer or a very fashionable sleuth. Eye. Was that what that was?

[Joanna Fleming]

Even like, the photographer, when you're like Thanksgiving photographing it. Yeah. But you're making sure as well that you know that's clear and crisp. Then it's going to someone else for image selection. Are they not going, what the fuck? Like, how does this get through so many people?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

It brings up a really interesting question too, because it's like, what is worse? This being an oversight or this being an intentional choice?

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And I think there are many industry rumors that Jonathan Anderson, who is the creative director of Loewe, is so heavily involved in Loewe that even local markets, collaborations or decision making or store locations is overseen by him. And so, just in stark contrast to that, here I am thinking Jonathan Anderson is thinking about little old Melbourne Loewe. How is Balenciaga not looking at a campaign with Nicole Kidman and Bella Hadid?

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, exactly.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Exactly. And they've got to protect their images as well. Like, there are so many factors and variables and so many people who have clearly been so impacted by this. Like, imagine being Nicole or Bella saying, my friends, but like, you know, imagine just how humiliated you would be to know that this got signed off, it got approved by a multi billion dollar company.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

And it was Just completely missed.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah. And I think as well, like, what we don't know is how long had they worked with these set designers? How long have you worked with this production company? Are these partners that you've worked with for seven, eight, nine years that you have complete and utter trust in? And are things like compliance or fact checking laxing because of that trusted relationship? They're kind of all the things that rattle in my mind, having worked with creative agencies in photo shoots. Obviously not to this scale of, you know, having a Nicole Kidman or Bella Hadid, but, you know, they're a partner. They're an extension of a business that you might work for or with. But, yeah, I think. God, I think for me, it's like, I just don't know what is worse, the fact that it was overseen and potentially an oversight by a global conglomerate, like hearing, or the fact that. That it could have been an intentional choice. I. I lean towards the intentional choice being the worst of the two, but, I mean, it being an oversight as well, sits uncomfortably well.

[Joanna Fleming]

The finger pointing went so far that Balenciaga decided to file a $25 million lawsuit in the New York State Supreme Court alleging that the production company, North Six, and their set designer, Des Jardin, included the documents in the campaign without authorization. Yeah, so they were really just trying to convince everyone.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

That they were not involved. And the production company's legal representatives told the court that the documents were sourced from a television prop house.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Oh, God.

[Joanna Fleming]

And that the set designer had assumed that they were fictional. But even if they were fictional, I don't know why you would have included them in the shoot. They also confirmed that representatives from Balenciaga were present at the shoot, overseeing it and handling the papers and the props. And Des Jardine, as the set designer, was not responsible for the image selection from the shoot. So, again, like, you're just not taking responsibility for the fact that this then went through several different people for approval. But can you guys guess what happened next after that?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I know what happened, so I won't cheat.

[Joanna Fleming]

They had to drop the lawsuit a week after filing.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

So the brand's CEO told the media that they were planning on implementing a series of actions in response to the scandal, including creating a new board responsible for approving all images, hiring an external agency to evaluate content, and reorganizing the image department.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

So wild. Like, in my industry, I've worked on so many sets and, like, for actual, like, fashion campaign shoots. And the designers that we work with, like, obviously have such a deep level of care for Their brand and their brand DNA and how it's actually put out into the world. And the designers that we work with are meticulous about every little thing on those sets. If our hair is out of place, if anything is just not looking right or aligned with the brand and the brand values, it does not ever, ever, ever see the light of day. So for me, again, I just, I keep coming back to the same point, being like, now you've actually got me thinking, okay, what's worse, intentional or an oversight?

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Either way, they're not gonna win in the situation. Cause the whole thing is a royal fuck up. But it's just like I still don't understand how this even got out there to begin with. And the conspiracy theories, like, I literally am thinking back to like Illuminati days now, but that's another thing. But just how you can honestly kind of go wild with this and like, is there someone who's actually so disgruntled and has gone done this on purpose and just kind of like, I don't know, my mind during the grass. But the main issue is that this happened and it is so bottom of the barrel on every level. Again, just how the hell did it actually get out there? I just, I will never understand it.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, well, it got past Creative director Demna, so I think it would be interesting to kind of understand what his perspective was on it. In early December of 2022, he posted a statement to his personal Instagram which apologised for the wrong artistic choice of concept for the gifting campaign. He outlined that although he often seeks to provoke thought in his work, he would never intentionally do this with a subject like child abuse. The New Yorker later quoted Demner as assuring that the teddy bears were meant to reference punk and DIY culture. Absolutely not. BDSM in his words.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

There's something really interesting in this date for me, which is. We were talking about the 24th of November.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Was when Balenciaga's commentary.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yep.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I just feel like, oh, that's a lot of days in between. And I remember a lot of the news cycle being, Ah, the silence is deafening.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

I do wonder if he was instructed not to say anything, potentially if the lawsuit just. Yeah, yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

But they're two separate things. And he's only apologised for the teddy bears.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah. And I hate to drill a little deeper, but like, even thinking about children and punk culture, like, for me as well, these are things that I don't want to say. You know, punks are aggressive or they're anything that, like, you know, it's a type of music. Sure. But it's like sometimes, I think when you attribute, again, just the innocence of children.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I can't think of it being okay to put them in a punk.

[Joanna Fleming]

It seems like an adult theme. Right.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Does that make sense?

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

But they're not the first fashion house to put children in an environment. Like, now, I want to be really clear. I do not condone the BDSM bears, but Chanel have been using children at their shows. Karl Lagerfeld had his godson in more shows than I can possibly count. And, like, from him being like, three and four in these, like, tiny tuxes with the, you know, Chanel bride. So this isn't the first time we've seen this in this environment. I just think you're absolutely right, Annika. It is the environment that they should be in versus the ones they should not.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes. And. And remember the photographer that we spoke about earlier, Gabriel? So the New Yorker also reported that he had been on a list of photographers that Demna wanted to work with and that the project had seemed like a good fit for practical reasons, since there were so many products to advertise. He said, for me, it was really all about the composition and the fact that we could put all these items in one image. Not so much about the children, apparently. So it was like, oh, we need to get this flat lay of all these products. That's why I'm hiring him. It's not cause he's used to photographing children.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

There was a dog bowl in there. Maybe do a dog with the dog bowl, you know?

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. So the public fallout for Balenciaga was huge, and it didn't just affect the brand. Celebrities who had previously collaborated with the label were held to account as social media users demanded answers. You mentioned Kim Kardashian before, and she remained silent on the issue for days until November 28, which is before Demna. She tweeted that she was disgusted and outraged by it, but she wanted to let the Balenciaga team tell their side of events so that she could understand how this oversight happens. Her statement read, as a mother of four, I have been shaken by the disturbing images. The safety of children must be held with the highest regard, and any attempts to normalise child abuse of any kind should have no place in our society, period. I appreciate Balenciaga's removal of the campaign and apology in speaking with them. I believe they understand the seriousness of the issue and will take the necessary measures for this never to Happen again. The fallout even extended to one of Balenciaga's biggest brick and mortar stores in London. A street artist defaced the storefront of its flagship and stencil pedophilia on the side of the windows, according to Newsweek. And there were also reports of the Beverly Hills store on Rodeo Drive being defaced as well. But you might be wondering how this impacted the brand financially at this point. There's obviously been a huge cancellation of the brand during this period in November, December 22, and let me tell you, things were not looking good for the brand. It's reported that in the weeks following the scandal, Balenciaga dropped out of the list index of the top 10 fashion brands, falling from fourth on the list to 11th. But have they actually recovered since then? I think is a really hot topic amongst the brand's fans and also critics as well. People that are shopping with the brand, that are choosing not to shop with the brand, that have maybe shopped with them before and have these really expensive items sitting in their wardrobes gathering dust. What do we think? Are they back? Is it possible to make a comeback from this? What do you guys think?

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Unfortunately, yes. And honestly, like, I found it so interesting just how quickly they came back. And even, like, in the space of. So we're Saying it's been two years, but 2022, within 2023. The Era 1 LA Runway that I was talking about earlier, that was not even a year after this transpired. We've got Kim back and front face like the campaign of the brand. And we've got Anna Wintour personally endorsing Demna and inviting him back to the Met Gala, telling everyone how he deserves a second chance. And she's the advocate for second chances. Like, we have got powerful people bringing, you know, this back to the forefront.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I think we're still talking about someone who took a brand from $350 million to 2 billion.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And I think I'm not at all surprised that Demna has been protected at all costs for them, because what Balenciaga did for the Kieran Group, which is the group that owns Balenciaga, cannot be ignored. And classic me, because I love data and numbers. When I knew we were doing this was like, okay, are they back? Factually, are they back? Let's go and look at the numbers. And Kering released their annual results, and they report on them as public statements. And so I went back through their 2023 annual results, and they were saying, trends improved. And this is a quote, trends improved significantly for Balenciaga. In North America and Western Europe. And the house also delivered a solid performance in Asia Pacific. And then in 2024, for their first half results report, they did note that they'd taken a hit to operational income and they were saying that those impacts were attributed to significant reinvestment in communications at Balenciaga. Now I thought this was interesting because this is also timed when we saw the Runway show, which we covered in one of our headline episodes where we saw, we saw Nicole Kidman and her daughter Sunday Rose. We saw Naomi Watts with her child, we saw Maya Rudolph with her daughter. It was a real family affair and they were some big names. And I'm willing to bet that no one was there without a check being cut.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And when we talk significant investments back in communications, I think that there were moments like this. There were moments like Carey Mulligan in the most exquisite 1950s dress from the house. It was an original from. She looked spectacular. It was like one of the best dressed of the Oscars. But again, I'm like, I don't think this was just like a look that was pulled, could be wrong on that. But I think there has been a lot of money spent on keeping Balenciaga in favor in pop culture and celebrity culture. And I think, are they back? I mean, I'm not yet back in my Balenciaga pieces. I personally still feel conflicted, but I certainly don't think they're where they were in 2022.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, well, there's still people commenting on their social posts now reminding them they haven't forgotten about this. Here's a rundown of Balenciaga's trajectory following the scandal because I think it really ties into, you know, those celebs being paid to have their children at these events. After releasing their statements on the scandal, Balenciaga remained silent until February of 2023. So statements were out then it was complete radio silence for months afterwards. Then they announced that they were partnering with the National Children's alliance to increase access to the alliance cognitive Behavio programs raise public awareness on child abuse and receive in house education on child protection. So throughout their time away from the spotlight, they also continued to update their website with new pieces, but they refrained from promoting anything on social media. So there was nothing going out on their socials. News then broke through third party Instagram profiles that the brand would be showing at Paris Fashion Week that year in 2023. But the brand didn't announce announce the show on its official social media accounts. The response to Balenciaga's Impending comeback was fairly mixed, Heistnobiety reported. There were plenty of naysayers. Told you no consequences for Balenciaga. One person griped tone deaf to allow Balenciaga to come back so quickly. Another said. But just as many people were excited to witness Balenciaga's return, the Internet isn't ready for Balenciaga's return, but I am, one fan enthused. Though it does demonstrate the willingness of the fashion conscious to move on, it also demonstrates deep scars left by Balenciaga's scandalous campaigns, the report said. As you mentioned, Annika, Anna Wintour then invited Demna to attend the Met gala, personally endorsing him, where he hosted a table of young designers who otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford tickets to that event. A number of celebs then spotted wearing Balenciaga at the Cannes Film Festival, prompting an article from the New York Times titled the Balenciaga Comeback is Happening. The label premiered a couture collection designed by Demna in July of 2023, which was attended by the likes of Anna Wintour, again, Michelle Yeoh and Cardi B. Despite speculation that Demna would lose the top job for his role in the scandal, or perhaps for not really taking more of an active role in preventing it, by July, it was clear that he was not going anywhere. Why didn't Balenciaga look to pin this oversight on him? I feel like that is the perfect scapegoat until you remember that the brand had grown from 350 million in sales to a reported 2 billion. And we know that money talks. And in this case, fashion definitely listened. In September of 2023, the Toronto Star reported, perhaps Demna Visalia is simply too big to fail. The major fashion magazines never wavered in their support or coverage. Only industry website business of fashion took a stand against the designer, holding him responsible. The attention span of the masses waned. Is this right or wrong? That, as always, is for the market to decide. So what do you guys make of that? Is he too valuable? I guess it's too far gone now. Like we're talking two years later. They can't just turn around and be like, we're gonna hold you accountable for this. If they were going to get rid of him and burn him at the stake for that, it would have been in November, December of 2022.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

I see that and I feel like, you know, unfortunately in a situation like this, there are so many things at play here. Profit, you know, bottom line, all of that is definitely coming into play.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

He's also not the first designer to be caught up in controversy. And I think John Galliano, when he was at Dior, was in an incredibly controversial moment. And there's a lot of rumour at the moment that he's going to be returning to a large house. And I think, you know, the difference that we're talking is John Galliano's scandal, I want to say, was 2015, 2016, and I think it's taken him eight years to sort of claw back from that. And Demna kind of, like, survived the hurricane while it was happening and still somehow held onto the job, which I think is astounding.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, same.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I, I, yeah, look, personally, I, I, it's still a brand I just feel uncomfortable by, but I think I am someone who, you know, once I feel that way about something, I do think that the way I interact with a brand or something does reflect me a little bit, and so I don't want to be associated with that. Does that mean that I won't get those Balenciaga boots out or those pants out another time? I don't know. I don't want to hold myself to that standard. But, you know, as I mentioned, Dolce and Gabbana is another one. I felt really uncomfortable when Kourtney Kardashian was back working with them, because I was like, you're a woman who's spoken about your IVF journey. And. Yeah, I don't know. There's. There's. I feel like there's a laundry list of examples I could give.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And now I'm just going on a tangent, but I think, you know, is he a genius that made a mistake? I don't know. He's a genius. He took a brand from 350 million to 2 billion. And that takes genius.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

It doesn't mean it's not a mad genius.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

I would love to poll our audience on this. Like, if they own Balenciaga items. Have you been able to put this aside and still wear your items? Or as someone that doesn't have any of their items? Is this something that you are constantly reminded of every time you see the brand advertised or every time Fashion Week comes around? I would love to know what everyone's opinion is.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And do people care? Or for some people, is it just not that deep?

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

That they're like, I can separate the brand and the creative director, because we're talking about a brand that's been around for over a hundred years. Are people just like, well, Dem is just the creative director for now.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

And we can still appreciate Those, like, moments prior to this.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Totally.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

And to also get the brand to that 2 billion dollar reported mark, obviously the consumers think it's commercial. Obviously it's selling, obviously it's trading. So there must be people out there who still can actually compartmentalize and put it aside or maybe just. Yeah, really not care.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I certainly don't think this will be the last time the word Balenciaga is mentioned on this podcast. But that is all for this week's episode of Stylish. Thanks very much for joining us. And of course, Joe, thank you so much for taking us through our very lengthy trace today. And of course you, Anika, for joining us as well. And remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-ishameless media.com or slide into our DMs over Tylend. And we cannot forget to thank the wonderful Shameless Media team. Head of podcast Lucy Hunt and our gorgeous senior podcast producer, Kate Emma Burke. And of course, researcher Chloe Wilson. You had a big job to do on this one. We'll be right back with you next Wednesday. See you then.

[Unnamed Speaker 1]

Bye bye. This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.

[Zara]

Hey, guys, it's Zara here. Are you struggling this summer because all your favorite shows are on break? Fear not, because our recently launched interview show, Inherited is working right through the summer break. Yes, that means fresh interviews every single week. If you've not yet listened to an episode of Inherited, we ask our guests for the recipes, rules, relics and rituals that have shaped who they are today. My favorite interview so far was with Mia Friedman because of how honest, honest and dare I say, unfiltered she was. Even though Mia hosts podcasts every single week, I feel like we absolutely saw a different side of her in this chat. Here's a little snippet.

[G]

It's a weird kind of grief. Pregnancy, loss. You're grieving the idea of someone you're grieving someone you've never met, someone you've got no memories of. And so what this box is full of is the ultrasound pictures that I had of her and some cards that people sent me with flowers after she died. What's hard is that you don't have any proof that she even existed.

[Zara]

Search Inherited on any of your favourite podcast apps and get listening. Your summer road trip is sorted.