The Bezo-Sanchez wedding and the death of 'quiet luxury'

Summary

Style-ish Podcast Summary: "The Bezo-Sanchez Wedding and the Death of 'Quiet Luxury'"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Style-ish
• Host/Author: Shameless Media
• Description: Style-ish is the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business, and beauty.
• Episode: The Bezo-Sanchez Wedding and the Death of 'Quiet Luxury'
• Release Date: July 1, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode kicks off with Madison Sullivan Thorpe and co-hosts Anika Joshi Smith and Joanna Fleming diving into the much-discussed Bezo-Sanchez wedding. The hosts immediately highlight the extravagance of the event, setting the tone for a deep dive into the intersection of high fashion and ostentatious displays of wealth.

Notable Quote:

• Madison Sullivan Thorpe [00:18]: “This is Style-ish, the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business, and beauty.”

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2. The Bezo-Sanchez Wedding Analysis

a. Overall Aesthetics and Luxury Display

The hosts express mixed feelings about the wedding's aesthetic. While acknowledging the event's lavishness, they critique the absence of "quiet luxury," noting the overabundance of diamonds and maximalist fashion choices that overshadow subtle elegance.

Notable Quotes:

• Madison Sullivan Thorpe [00:46]: “I just don't think quiet luxury was anywhere to be seen there. No, it was, I think, probably the largest display of diamonds I've seen in a very long time.”
• Joanna Fleming [02:43]: “They were just, I think, a little bit too lingerie for a wedding.”

b. Guest Attire and Noteworthy Styles

The discussion shifts to the attire of notable guests, highlighting both commendable and questionable fashion choices. Sydney Sweeney and Kendall Jenner receive praise for their floral and Dolce & Gabbana ensembles, while the Kardashian family's outfits are critiqued for being too revealing and lacking originality.

Notable Quotes:

• Anika Joshi Smith [01:39]: “I loved Sydney Sweeney's looks. She had a pink strapless number that I think she wore to the actual wedding.”
• Joanna Fleming [02:43]: “The Kardashians as a whole, I felt really let down by.”

c. Fashion Trends and the Shift from Quiet Luxury

Madison cites a New York Times article discussing the shift from minimalism and quiet luxury to overt displays of wealth post-President Trump's second election. This shift is evident in the maximalist fashion showcased at the wedding, contrasting previous societal trends towards subdued elegance.

Notable Quote:

• Madison Sullivan Thorpe [03:07]: “It was maximalist fashion. It's now the largest scale wedding we've seen since the Ambani wedding... more is more is more.”

d. The Legacy and Marketing of the Bezo-Sanchez Union

The hosts compare the Bezo-Sanchez wedding to other high-profile weddings like the Ambani wedding, emphasizing the scale and celebrity involvement. They also reflect on the origins of Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez's relationship, recommending previous Shameless Media episodes for listeners interested in their backstory.

Notable Quote:

• Anika Joshi Smith [04:00]: “I did love that Shameless covered this on Monday in their episode because I didn't know the origin story of Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez.”

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3. Founder-Led Brands: The Kate Moss Case Study

a. Introduction to Kate Moss's Cosmos Liquidation

The episode transitions to discussing the liquidation of Kate Moss's beauty and wellness brand, Cosmos. The hosts dissect the reasons behind its failure, drawing insights from a Times article by Victoria Moss, which argues that clean living brands struggle to resonate without strong social media presence and genuine brand authority.

Notable Quotes:

• Madison Sullivan Thorpe [05:19]: “Kate Moss's Cosmos goes into liquidation. Are we seeing the demise of founder-led brands?”
• Victoria Moss (as cited) [11:33]: “With a recent Business of Fashion article declaring at the end of the founder led era...”

b. Challenges of Founder-Led Brands in a Competitive Market

The discussion highlights the increasing difficulty for founder-led brands in the saturated beauty industry. Unlike successful counterparts like Hailey Bieber's Road or Lady Gaga's Haus Labs, Cosmos failed to establish a unique value proposition and relied heavily on Kate Moss's personal brand without substantiating it with product credibility.

Notable Quotes:

• Anika Joshi Smith [16:32]: “I feel like we're fatigued by all of these brands where celebrities are just a lot of the time, I feel like it looks a lot like a cash grab.”
• Joanna Fleming [19:25]: “House Labs by Lady Gaga... It's not just because it's Lady Gaga's brand. It's because the product is actually great.”

c. Comparisons with Successful Celebrity Brands

The hosts compare Cosmos's failure with the success of brands like Haus Labs by Lady Gaga and Rod by Hailey Bieber. They emphasize the importance of genuine brand alignment, operational excellence, and a strong product offering in ensuring a brand's success beyond the founder's fame.

Notable Quotes:

• Madison Sullivan Thorpe [19:42]: “And the same could be said of Fenty and Rare Beauty with their founders as well.”
• Anika Joshi Smith [20:36]: “These women out there who are aspirational, they're relatable and they're also paving the way for what the future should be for women in fashion and business.”

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4. The Australian Shaving Foam Debacle

a. Overview of the Issue

The episode covers a controversy involving Australian entrepreneur Clara Mimoso of Shaven Body. Clara posted a tearful TikTok video expressing her frustration over a similar shaving foam launched by competitor brand Gem, which is now available in major retailers like Kohl's at a significantly lower price point.

Notable Quote:

• Madison Sullivan Thorpe [23:05]: “Clara has racked up over 5 million views, but the comment section's pretty divided.”

b. Hosts' Perspectives on Competition and Pricing

Joanna Fleming and Madison Sullivan Thorpe debate the fairness of the competition, with Joanna empathizing with Clara but questioning the justification for the high price of Shaven Body's shaving foam. Madison offers a nuanced view, discussing the challenges small brands face against larger competitors with economies of scale.

Notable Quotes:

• Joanna Fleming [23:15]: “I do feel for Clara because you can tell like she is clearly distraught in this video.”
• Madison Sullivan Thorpe [24:38]: “I completely empathize with this instance, Clara. But also brand founders being upset, I...”

c. Strategies for Small Brands Facing Larger Competitors

The hosts suggest that small brands like Shaven Body might need to pivot their market strategy, consider alternative retail partnerships, or emphasize unique selling propositions to differentiate themselves from larger competitors.

Notable Quotes:

• Joanna Fleming [27:31]: “Look at the gem packaging. I'm like this doesn't look the same as the packaging. It's not similar in name either. One's a gel, one's a foam.”
• Anika Joshi Smith [29:32]: “Look at other retailers like Mecca or Sephora, even Priceline, Atomica, adore beauty. Like all of these options that are an alternative to being in supermarkets that might be more aligned with what you want to do with your brand.”

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5. Listener's Dilemma: Corporate Dressing in a Male-Dominated Environment

a. Listener Submission

A listener named Nina from New Zealand shares her struggles in a male-dominated corporate workplace. Despite strong performance, she feels her progress is hindered by a sexist culture that pressures her to alter her appearance to be taken more seriously.

b. Hosts' Responses and Advice

Anika Joshi Smith and Joanna Fleming offer empathetic and practical advice. They encourage Nina to consider seeking employment in more inclusive environments and highlight the importance of aligning with workplaces that value performance over appearance. They also suggest leveraging career switches for better opportunities and higher pay.

Notable Quotes:

• Anika Joshi Smith [33:05]: “Start looking for other jobs. It is time to walk away from that organization.”
• Madison Sullivan Thorpe [36:03]: “Sometimes just hiding yourself is a good thing to do in the workplace.”

c. Emphasizing Authenticity and Empowerment

The hosts stress the importance of authenticity and not compromising one's style or identity for career advancement. They highlight role models and resources that empower women to maintain their personal style while thriving professionally.

Notable Quotes:

• Joanna Fleming [40:27]: “She is showing you that you can still have personality and personal style in a corporate space.”
• Madison Sullivan Thorpe [42:35]: “There's some extra cash to go towards your new wardrobe, Nina.”

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6. Product Recommendations and Swap Time

a. Highlighting Trending TikTok Accounts

Madison recommends Miranda Davidson's TikTok account for its humor and authenticity, praising her as a relatable and entertaining content creator.

Notable Quotes:

• Madison Sullivan Thorpe [05:28]: “It's Miranda Davidson. And if you are not following Miranda, you should be.”

b. Beauty Product Endorsements

The hosts share their favorite beauty products, offering listeners trusted recommendations:

• Natasha Denona Concealer: Madison endorses it for its high coverage, suitable for events requiring long-lasting makeup.

  Quote:

  • Madison Sullivan Thorpe [07:02]: “Natasha Denona concealer, if you need a beat look. Unbelievable.”

• Haus Lab Foundation: Joanna Fleming praises its lightweight, dewy finish, highlighting the extensive shade range and excellent customer service at Sephora.

  Quote:

  • Joanna Fleming [07:31]: “I really like the staff there because they do it all for you.”

• Rare Beauty Matte Blush: Anika recommends the "Happy" shade for its buildable coverage and versatility, paired with the Rare Beauty brush.

  Quote:

  • Anika Joshi Smith [09:12]: “It's much easier to build up. So if you're a bit more of a subtle kind of cheek girl and you want to just build up the coverage a little bit more, I feel it's very good for that.”

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7. Conclusion and Closing Remarks

The episode wraps up with the hosts expressing hope and encouragement for listeners facing similar challenges, reinforcing the importance of staying true to oneself in both personal style and professional endeavors. They also promote upcoming events and thank their sponsors, maintaining a balance between content and community engagement.

Notable Quote:

• Joanna Fleming [45:32]: “This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.”

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Key Takeaways:

• Luxury Trends: The shift from quiet luxury to maximalist displays at high-profile events reflects broader societal changes.
• Founder-Led Brand Challenges: Success for founder-led brands in the beauty industry requires more than celebrity backing; it demands genuine product quality and strong operational strategies.
• Small Business Struggles: Competitive markets and pricing disparities can severely impact small brands when larger companies release similar products.
• Workplace Equality: Persistent sexism in corporate environments necessitates bold actions, such as seeking more inclusive workplaces and advocating for systemic change.
• Authenticity in Style: Maintaining personal style and authenticity is crucial for professional and personal fulfillment, despite external pressures to conform.

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For more insights and detailed discussions, tune into "Style-ish" every Wednesday.

Transcript

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Foreign.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

This episode of Stylish is brought to you by New Balance. Shop the 471. The perfect sneaker for nine to five. To five to nine. Styling.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

This is stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business and beauty. My name is Madison Sullivan Thorpe. My co hosts are Anika Joshi Smith and Joanna Fleming.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Hello. Happy Wednesday.

[Joanna Fleming]

Happy Wednesday, ladies.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

We've got to talk about the Bezos wedding, don't we?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

So many looks.

[Joanna Fleming]

So many looks, so many choices, so many opinions.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

What did you both make of the affair Look?

[Anika Joshi Smith]

It was extravagant, that's for sure. No amount of money spared, I would say.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I just don't think quiet luxury was anywhere to be seen there. No, it was, I think, probably the largest display of diamonds I've seen in a very long time.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I mean, as a little jewellery loving magpie, I certainly had a face for the senses.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Thoughts on the carpet, on the floor in this ceremony.

[Joanna Fleming]

It was a lot.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Would you have gone a hardwood if it had been you?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I probably just would have left the grass, to be honest. But, you know, I think looks wise. It was more conservative than I anticipated from her as her wedding dress.

[Joanna Fleming]

I've got to agree on this.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, yeah. And I was surprised it was Dolce and Gabbana because the Schiaparelli welcome look I thought might have been alluding to a Schiaparelli custom moment for the wedding. Who did we love and who did we maybe think could have done a little bit better of the guests?

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I loved Sydney Sweeney's looks. She had a pink strapless number that I think she wore to the actual wedding. And then for one of the other events, she had a nice, like beautiful floral pattern moment. Kendall's Roberto Cavalli floral moment I thought was really cute as well.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Absolutely loved that.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Oprah actually had some looks.

[Joanna Fleming]

She actually served.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yeah. She actually had some really good looks. I don't know who's styling her or if she styled herself, but honestly, compared to some of the other ones I saw, I was like, go off Oprah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. I think there was a chocolate dress she wore that I quite liked and.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I had like feathery sleeves.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. I don't know. I loved the pink for the actual nuptials.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I didn't hate it.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

It was giving a little bit like trying to be a bridesmaid.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Ok. For me, not fair.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. But, you know, fair feedback.

[Joanna Fleming]

I do have to say it is currently Paris Fashion Week and I feel like I was expecting to see some more kind of looks and trends, but a lot of the Looks I saw from the guests were just, I think there's Showstopper and I think there's like, you know, obviously we're expecting some world class looks at this wedding, but the Kardashians as a whole, I felt really let down by.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yes.

[Joanna Fleming]

They were just, I think, a little bit too lingerie for a wedding.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I think Kendall and Kylie did all right.

[Joanna Fleming]

The Jenners did okay. We've got to give the Jenners credit. But I think the Kardashians for me are.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Kylie was orbiting a little too close to white for me for her wedding guest dress. I feel that it's fascinating to me. There was a New York Times article on this and I want to read some of the quotes, so bear with me because I think they're really interesting.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

It says, not so long ago, members of high society were fixated on trying to low key their way out of the perils of income inequality. Minimalism and quiet luxury were in vogue. But in the wake of President Trump's second election, it's the Lux life at full volume. I do not think a single guest was trying to hide their wealth. Like the jewels and things on display, like, this was maximalist fashion.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

We were dripping, like, dripping and billionaires dripping and wealth dripping and diamonds.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

It's now the largest scale wedding we've seen since the Ambani wedding, which we saw last year and spoke about as well. Which, I mean, we had Justin Bieber and Rihanna performing casual, but this was a real display of more is more is more. I don't recall thinking guests there were like, done to the nines, aside from, again, the Kardashians. I don't know how they're getting all these call ups, but go off, sis. Like, they're clearly on the top of the guest list.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I did love that Shameless covered this on Monday in their episode because I didn't know the origin story of Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez. And I think it's definitely worth listening to that episode if you also don't know how that relationship came about.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, go check it out.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, I just have a fun little fact.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, I.

[Joanna Fleming]

When I was in Miami last year, I actually sat next to them at a restaurant and I was just like, looking at them. They were sitting with Corey Gamble and their daily attire was definitely giving, like, Miami life in the fab lane. Like, she was wearing this, like, little pink mini dress that was super sexy. So when I saw her wedding looks, I was just like, I loved how classy she was in, like, her own way.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

You know, maybe she wanted to surprise people like if that's not her normal look, if that isn't usually part of her three words that she'd used to describe her style.

[Joanna Fleming]

And I think as well throwback, there were a few nods to like Audrey Hepburn with the head scarf. And I feel like she tried to evoke a lot of that timeless beauty in her own way. So I've got to give her props there.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

All right, well, today we are going to be talking about Kate Moss brand going into liquidation and the demise of founder led brands. A shaving gel related meltdown and opinions please is back. This time we're answering a listener's dilemma about corporate dressing. But first, swap time. Now that we've done the Bezos wedding.

[Joanna Fleming]

We love this time.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

We love this time. This is my favourite.

[Joanna Fleming]

I always take notes at this time.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I've got two because I want to be a greedy little pig. So the first is a TikTok account.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, this is just one for the girls. This is just if you want to have a laugh. And I'm a little bit biased about this because this is a dear friend of mine. But I've had enough independent people tell me how great this account is that I think my bias and my love of this account can go hand in hand.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I know exactly who you're going to.

[Joanna Fleming]

Say I rate your humor. So let's go.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

It's Miranda Davidson. And if you are not following Miranda, you should be. Because I have had the pleasure of being friends with Miranda for about eight years and I think of those eight years I have been desperately begging her to either do an open mic night, create a screenplay, work on a concept to pitch to production companies. She is wickedly funny and wildly quick. And then when she said no to all of my original concepts, I was like, well at least do do it on TikTok. And so I'm not taking any credit for this. Cause she's got her own nation. She is doing her thing. But she is so funny and the videos are going so viral so I would definitely recommend checking it out.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I just need to say I was there before she went viral. I'm top three fans on TikTok of Miranda and I genuinely have to back you there. She is hilarious.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I love that hilarious. She does these day in my lives and they're quite satire and witty and just so funny.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

And the best part is she thinks of some of the shit that she captions.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I can't emphasize this enough how authentically her it is as well. Like this is Not. She is not dressing any of this up. That is Miranda's life. She is like I always say, my favorite party trick is bringing Miranda.

[Joanna Fleming]

I love that. Okay, I need to check her out.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And I did promise that I would bring a product because it's been a while since I bought a product, but. Natasha Denona concealer, if you need a beat look. Unbelievable. I have really deep set under eye bags and really dark circles. If you need a great concealer for when you're going out or you've got something super important on, can't recommend it enough. I've been using it when I have like birthday parties or when I've got weddings and just need a heavy duty concealer that needs to last 12 hours.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

So like high coverage.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

High coverage.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Okay.

[Joanna Fleming]

I need this.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

No, I'm the same.

[Joanna Fleming]

I've got like such deep set under eyes and I just feel like when I'm tired, you can just tell it's like all over my face. So give me some of that.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I'll take you to Sephora. We'll go get it. Thanks, girl.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay, so mine actually is also a product house lab foundation. I actually. When was this? When did we go to the F1 back in January, February, March, March. Oh, my God. Okay. Back in March, I got my makeup done and the makeup artist actually used Haus Lab foundation on my face and I really rated the coverage. It was so lightweight, it was dewy, but it had a really nice finish. Then I've entered beauty talk. I know, I know, guys, I know.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

We're so thrilled to have you here.

[Joanna Fleming]

Thank you. And when I was in New York, I was like, oh, my God. I'm just gonna go into Sephora and have a look at the range. And there was like 51 different shades, so it made like matching my tone. So actually quite enjoyable. And I really like the staff there because they do it all for you. So we had a really good play, got the right shade. Really beautiful finish. And I've just been enjoying like using it now, especially in different humidity and like different climates like I found in New York when it was super hot. So great. Add to cart mattes.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, add to cart.

[Joanna Fleming]

And then back here, I feel like it's been giving me quite a nice, like dewy finish in my day to day look. So I do rate it.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Are you wearing that right now?

[Joanna Fleming]

I am. It looks gorgeous.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, it actually does look really nice.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I heard your skin a bit better.

[Joanna Fleming]

That's what I think.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

You are the fourth person in probably two weeks to recommend this foundation. To me and they've all been like heavy beauty girls like girls who know their stuff. So I am definitely going to take.

[Joanna Fleming]

You up on the beauty world.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Jeffree star who.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

We also did not plan this at all but I also have a beauty recommendation.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Three for three. Ding, ding, ding. Miranda, you don't count as a beauty reco but we'll throw you in anyway.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

So mine is the rare beauty matte blush. I think it's called the bouncy blush. So I use the shade Happy. This comes in I think seven other shades. I can't describe the texture too. It's made in Korea. I would say it's kind of like a cushion compact. Oh, it's not. Yeah, it's like not a powder but it's not a cream. I don't even know how to describe it but you would pick it up with a brush. And I highly recommend the rare beauty brush along with the blush. Yeah, it just picks up the product really nicely. It's not as highly pigmented as their liquid blushes which honestly you can a little goes in with that.

[Joanna Fleming]

You can.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

This is much easier to build up. So if you're a bit more of a subtle kind of cheek girl and you want to just build up the coverage a little bit more, I feel it's very good for that. But I am absolutely loving this product. It's stunning.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay. Are you wearing it today?

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yes. Okay.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, I'm wearing it today. I like this. It's kind of like a nice like soft blush.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, it's just like a little flush.

[Joanna Fleming]

I'm wearing the liquid one and I do think you can get a bit heavy handed. I'm quite the novice.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Still very easy.

[Joanna Fleming]

Wrong.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. Blush blindness do this. I haven't tried the powder but I do love the beauty that's coming out of Korea at the moment. Particularly in color cosmetics. Their innovation is incredible.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yes.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

So sounds like I'm going to Sephora to get house hubs and a rare beauty.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, I think you are.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. Okay, good to know. Don't usually go in there.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

All that fun.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Okay, first headline is that Kate Moss's Cosmos goes into liquidation. And the question we are asking is are we seeing the demise of founder led brands? So last week it was announced that Kate Moss's beauty and wellness brand Cosmos has gone into liquidation. The brand was incredibly short lived. It was launched less than three years ago and an article in the Times written by Victoria Moss explained why clean living brands didn't resonate with customers.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I assume Victoria Moss isn't related To Kate Moss.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, I know. I just get a little bit, you.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Know, because that would be. No relate. Okay.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Kate's in the corner saying not related.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Not related. Can confirm not long lost cousins.

[Joanna Fleming]

That'd be awkward.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Victoria writes that a wellness brand launched by Kate Moss, the model Gen X party girl pinup was perhaps always going to be a stretch. Flogging any brand, even for globally renowned celebrities, takes serious shilling grit. Hailey Bieber has just sold her Beauty brand road for 1 billion USD. But the 28 year old is endlessly slacking the stuff onto her skin. On social media personnel is power, but only if you constantly hurl it into everyone's face. Moss does not have public personal social media channels and rarely even appeared on Cosmos's Instagram. Understandably. Maybe it all just bored her out. As a quote, Victoria is definitely not related to Kate because I don't think you'd be saying that. So Cosmos decline has come at a time when founder led brands as a whole are struggling more than ever. With a recent Business of fashion article declaring at the end of the founder led era, the Business of Fashion article explains that for founder led brands to find success in today's hyper competitive beauty industry, it's no longer as simple as putting their famous founder front and center in a brand's marketing and socials. A strong underlying value proposition can help nurture a brand's identity beyond the founder's personality. Over time, implementing a strong operational team that can identify where a founder's authority lies is essential. Being stylish or visible in the media can make a founder seem aspirational. But that does not always translate to credibility in the beauty realm. In super simple terms, if a brand is going to be founder led, the founder needs to have a genuine voice of authority.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Preach.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I think that is the resounding belief here. And also acknowledge the area they're launching into and where their credibility can maximize impact. Yeah, so let's go back to Kate Moss and Cosmos here. How did we feel about the demise of this brand? Had either of you even heard of it?

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I'd never even heard of it.

[Joanna Fleming]

Guys, I would like to say that I am a fan of Kate Moss. Like I love her and I have never heard of this brand.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Well, there you go.

[Joanna Fleming]

I did not know it existed. I was like, cosmos what? Like, I honestly was like, what is this brand?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

No, I had never heard of Cosmos.

[Joanna Fleming]

No.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And I think it could have came off obviously.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Like we all obviously love a good comeback story, like everybody does. And I think with Kate Moss just Being, you know, the article said it herself. In the party girl era, she was that girl of our time growing up. I don't associate wellbeing products with Kate. Like, I just don't.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

No, I think if she did a fashion label called Cosmos, that makes sense. Okay.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Well, she did the collaboration with Topshop.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes. Makes sense.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

All those years ago.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Kate is renowned for being a party girl. Like, there is ample footage of her stumbling out of cabs in the depths of the night. There are infamous quotes of nothing tastes as good as skinny. Feels like this is not a woman known for, like, her kumbaya lifestyle.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And I'm not here to judge her for that. I'm just saying that's. I don't know that it goes hand in hand with that. For me. When I think of founder led brands, we're kind of in this juxtaposition time at the moment where they're either absolutely flying with the likes of road or skims, or they're absolutely tanking. And there's brands like Blake Lively's hair care, Scarlett Johansson skin care that I don't feel like I hear all that much about. Yeah, maybe that's just my zeitgeist and my TikTok feed. But then on the total other side, I feel like you've got Mariana Hewitt with Summer Fridays who completely embodies that brand and has let that brand eclipse her personal brand. Kim was shapewear. Like, she is the embodiment of a female figure.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And skims make sense. Even Kourtney Kardashian with Lemmy. Like, we always knew Courtney had this, like, wellness arm with Poosh and Lemmy. Like, it makes sense. I just didn't know that Kate even had this brand. But this is so not for me. If I was getting Kate to start a brand, I'd be like, do what like, soul tonic have done where it's like a hangover remedy. Like, that makes sense.

[Joanna Fleming]

That makes sense.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

That's why she's the marketing girl.

[Joanna Fleming]

People I know, like, even a charcoal pill, like, you know, did you guys ever get on that bandwagon?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

No, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay, cool. Nita.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Do they absorb the alcohol?

[Joanna Fleming]

They do. So you pop them before you start drinking and then apparently at the end of the night and absorbed all the alcohol. But honestly, I feel like that'd also make you constipated. Yeah, it doesn't.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Okay, I'll leave that one on my out of the swap list.

[Joanna Fleming]

I love that these products helped her on her journey. And I think, you know, it's so great that she vouched for these on her personal journey and acknowledged that. But I do think at the same time, that's such a niche space. And I think when you're trying to sell a product into a market that is this saturated, it's really hard, especially when you're trying to, I guess, carve a new market for yourself in this. I don't even know. Is this holistic medicine, wellness? Like, it was a random product range. It was like teas as well as, like, a spray, a serum. Very niche. Very, very expensive as well. So I'm like, you're already kind of pigeonholing yourself into this very minor category, but then pricing yourself out of this category because your products aren't exactly accessible, maybe to the party girls who do want to go down the same journey with you. Donna.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

And I think we see the success of brands like Rhode because Hayley is showing up on her platforms talking about the brand. She was known for having glass skin before Rhode even came out.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

It was a natural synergy for her to then go after the skincare category. I feel the same about Lolavi by. What's her name? Jennifer Aniston.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Because she was known for the Rachel hair. Like, that makes sense.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Charlotte Tilbury with Charlotte Tilbury. Like, known for celebrity makeup and high voltage makeup on red carpet.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yes. It just makes sense. And I feel like we're so fatigued by celebrity brands. Like, I was researching for this headline, and I was like, what the actual fuck? Dwayne the Rock Johnson has a skincare brand.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

What?

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Did you know that? No, I like what. And I'm pretty sure it's buying that Brad Pitt does as well. I think. I'm pretty sure it's Brad Pitt.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I really love Brad Pitt.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

And he didn't even know how to describe, like, a cleanser. He's like, are you. I use, like, a wash. I'm like, it's a cleanser, Brad.

[Joanna Fleming]

Come on.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

That really got you going.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

But it's just. I think we're fatigued by all of these brands where celebrities are just a lot of the time, I feel like it looks a lot like a cash grab.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

And not like a genuine alignment. And I think we can appreciate when it does look like a genuine alignment. And that's where we see success in these brands. But we also have these celebrity brands that maybe would have done well 20 years ago being diluted by influencer brands, where these people really do live and breathe. The category that they decide to open a business in. For example, like I would say Mariana Hewitt is a great example of that. So I think we're just, just we're over it a little bit and I think they can be really successful. But I also just think it's completely oversaturated, especially in beauty and wellness.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I totally agree. And unless there is a deep level alignment and you can get that product mix right. And when I'm talking product mix, I mean the lineup, the pricing, your operations of where it's available and who it's available to, you have to know who your target audience is as the celebrity.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Because Kate Moss, that price point, I would argue has iced out a lot of people who are fans of Kate Moss.

[Joanna Fleming]

Totally.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Whereas for me, Hailey Bieber has nailed road because the price point is so accessible to an audience of her age and demographic.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, yeah. And I think as well, like a great comparison and a brand that has made a comeback is House Labs by Lady Gaga. Like we has. You know, speaking of dramatic makeup and looks, she has gone from Amazon and now she's in Sephora and she has just done a complete rebrand, a three year rebrand to get her brand to where it needs to be today. Like you said it yourself, four quotes, including myself, and rating her foundation. But like just leaning into products and being able to actually be an authority within that space. Like she gets her face in probably most days. She's always in the spotlight. She knows what she needs to put on her skin to make it look and feel its best and that resonates with people. Cosmos not really the same.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

And it's not enough for you just to be a celebrity and have a brand. Haus Labs products. People wouldn't be saying that they're as good as they are if they weren't.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

It's not just because it's Lady Gaga's brand. It's because the product is actually great.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And the same could be said of Fenty and Rare Beauty with their founders as well.

[Joanna Fleming]

100% definitely. I actually love as well, just going back to House Lab. Like they did some really incredible initiatives during Pride Month. So actually the Hollywood Reporter reported that every House Lab by Lady Gaga products sold at Sephora. During the month of June, the beauty retailer donated $1 to the Born this Way foundation initiatives for the LGBTQ communities. And I feel like everything the brand does, it makes sense to the brand. Like the messaging, the initiatives, their marketing, it all just makes so much sense.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Well, it also aligns to Gaga as well, who has been very vocal about her support of the LGBTQIA community as an ally and, you know, has done incredible work and advocacy for them. So it's an alignment of her as much as it is of the brand that she has co founded.

[Joanna Fleming]

It's so meaningful. I like that.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I think a very successful rebrand.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. Because could have very easily gone the other way.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yep, Absolutely.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

All right, next up, we're going to be discussing an Australian shaving cream debacle. But that will be right after a word from today's sponsor.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Hi, listeners. Jumping in with a special invite for the stylish working women of Melbourne on Monday, July 7. We're teaming up with New Balance and Gracie's Wine Room for the next installment of After Hours. You would have seen us celebrating the iconic New Balance 471 over drinks, food and an inspiring Women in Business panel on Monday. This time, we'll be chatting fashion for the working woman. And we'll be joined by Nadia Bartel of Henny Lucia Hanna with Harpaloo and model Annalise Dallons to chat through style trends and what it means to be a woman in leadership. The first night was such a success, so due to such high demand, we'd love for you to join us. Not only is it free, but you'll have the chance to take home a fresh pair of 471s. A second release of tickets for night two will be available on July 2nd at 4pm Head to our Instagram to get your tickets. Thank you so much to New Balance for making this episode of Stylish possible. So our next headline starts with quite an emotional video around shaving foam. So last week, Australian entrepreneur Clara Mimoso, the founder of body care brand Shaven Body, posted a very tearful video to her TikTok after discovering a shaving foam from fellow Aussie brand Gem that's quite similar to her brand's. Hero product is launching into Kohl's now. She reportedly spent two years perfecting the formula and is very upset that a much bigger brand has debuted a similar product just months after she launched hers. With Gem having the opportunity to go straight into retail, obviously they are stocked in, I think, Woolies and Coles, Correct? Yep. So both brands are now selling a pink shaving foam that contains skincare ingredients. But one of the biggest differences is the price point. So the Gem shaving foam is stocked at Kohl's and retails for $10, whereas shaven bodies foam is only available direct from their website and is $39.95 plus $10 shipping. Clara has racked up over 5 million views, but the comment section's pretty divided. So some commenters feel that it's really fair to be upse bigger Australian brand has launched a similar product, but others are like, nah, it's fair game. It is what it is. So one of the biggest debates amongst commenters has been the price point of the shaving foam. And many saying during a cost of living crisis, paying nearly $40 or $50 if you're paying for shipping is for a non essential product is pretty hard to justify. Which I can understand that lens from a lot of people that might be only spending $5 on a Gillette shaving foam in the supermarket when they're doing their shop.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

What do you guys think about this video? I think we'd all seen it before we had decided to put this in the episode. What are your thoughts on it?

[Joanna Fleming]

I do feel for Clara because you can tell like she is clearly distraught in this video. And so I totally empathise with her. But then if I am being devil's advocate, at the same time, I do, you know, reiterate the fact that this is a product that is readily available, maybe not to the same, you know, nurturing properties that her product is and maybe not that same USP or. But I guess for someone who doesn't use shaving creams or foams and I still shave my legs, I know I'm that girl, but I don't think I could also justify a $40 spend on a shaving cream right now. Like, I think, you know, I do invest in other luxuries when it comes to my bathroom, but when it's like coming to a shaving cream, I would easily just go and buy a cheaper version, if not like a men's grooming product because historically speaking, this is just an iteration of an evolution of men's grooming products which have been readily available and are ready available. So if I am being devil's advocate, I'm kind of thinking I do feel for you. Like I understand as a small business owner how much that can really upset you and I would be upset too. But you are in a space where there are products available in this space that are much more affordable. It's not just this one brand, your one competitor brand. And so I'd probably assess it from, okay, if this is really what's upsetting me now from a wholesale perspective, look at to what other opportunities would align with my brand.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Respectfully, I disagree a little bit.

[Joanna Fleming]

Hurt me.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I feel for Clara because I cannot imagine how upsetting that is. And I'm sure for every Clara, there is another brand founder sitting. Anytime someone like a gem enters a category and just goes fuck. Because they have the ranging. And with ranging comes more orders, which means more funds, which means higher MOQs. And for those of you who don't know what an MOQ is, it's a minimum order quantity. And as you order, more things become cheaper. So for smaller brands, creating in this instance a shaving foam, what you put into it matters. You can create a pink shaving foam that smells nice. But if you want to create a shaving foam that has naturally derived ingredients or has fragrance that you have to import from overseas or that is from a local production house, those things cost more. If you're a small business and you're ordering 5 or 10,000, which I know sounds like so much product, but that would be in beauty, generally speaking, one of the smallest moqs you can get on a product like this, Gem could be ordering anywhere upwards of 40, 50,000 at a time.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Given that if they're arranged in say Kohl's, which this product is, it's 8, 900 stores, you're talking about with a minimum on shelf carton, so you get this volume. And yes, Gem is small versus a Rex owner or a Gillette.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

But they're big versus these brands that are carving out space in these categories. It's not the same as a Gillette product because they're made for women. Gillette are making products for men. Our hair grows differently, our follicles are different, our skin is different. So I understand $40 is a lot of money and I don't want to say that that's a necessity and not a luxury, because to spend $40 on anything is a luxury. But I do think context of how a small business comes to that pricing. Businesses aren't created to make zero dollars, they're created to make money. And when you sell 40, 50,000 of something and make a two dollar, three dollar margin and a small business is selling 5,000 and making a five or ten dollar margin. Yeah, it's different.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And they're spending more to do it.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

So I completely empathize with this instance, Clara. But also brand founders being upset, I.

[Joanna Fleming]

Think on that as well, that's kind of what I would want to lean into. Like I would say to her, why don't we look at other wholesale partnerships that could be more aligned, Like I think for us as a business, whenever we take on new brands and emerging Brands. And obviously this is more so in the fashion space, which also have similar moqs, similar operational kind of standpoints as well. We always look at product price and profile. So those are kind of the three Ps we assess for where we're gonna put a brand in the market. Because we want that brand to flourish and we want it to actually be received well by the end consumer. And I think looking at this price compared to, you know, her competitors, why don't we target the likes of the Micas, the Sephoras, brands that actually will help elevate that brand in price as well. Because I do fear, unfortunately, maybe in the kohl space, this might continue to happen for her brand and it might, you know, people will see what's on special. Is she a brand that wants to be on markdown? Is she a brand that wants to sit next to, you know, markdown culture? Or is she a brand that wants to actually be in a more boutique setting that aligns more with her?

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yep. I think it's a very different customer. Right. Because the same person that's buying the gem shaving gel is buying that for $10. They're probably not even considering the $40 shaving foam, which I think is fair. And then look at other retailers like Mecca or Sephora, even Priceline, Atomica, adore beauty. Like all of these options that are an alternative to being in supermarkets that might be more aligned with what you want to do with your brand. And I did watch one of Clara's follow up videos where she, she kind of joked about having a breakdown to like millions of people the day before. So it was probably a little bit of a knee jerk reaction to do the video as she was really he and emotional about what was going on. She'd clearly just found out about it and I do feel for it because she said she spent over $30,000 in her own savings to create this brand. She spent three years in product development, allegedly. And to feel like your unique product is no longer unique can be really kind of shattering. I can definitely understand that. But I also was looking at the products and I'm like, I actually don't think these are similar. Like, I was looking at the gem packaging. I'm like, this doesn't look the same as the packaging. It's not similar in name either. One's a gel, one's a foam. Very different price points. I'm like, I think you're good. I don't think you need to be that concerned about, I don't know, obviously looking at it from a category perspective, but I also then was like, hang on a second. Her bottle actually looks really similar to a brand called Sunday who do a shower foam. I thought they're actually more similar. I'd be more concerned about them looking more similar than I would be about Jem. But I get it. It's like, okay, with skincare focused. It's female focused. Maybe that's the source of the concern. Yeah, I think it's a very different product and I just. I think water off duck's back.

[Joanna Fleming]

Let's.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Let's look at other opportunities.

[Joanna Fleming]

I agree. I feel like there's definitely so much space for all of these brands and I think it's obviously such a devastating moment for her because I feel like maybe that was a dream partnership for her and she felt like maybe that milestone to land that retailer has now been taken away, but I don't think so. I feel like there's so many spaces for this brand to still flourish and actually have its own market share. And I do feel like she's gonna. She's gonna find her feet.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I think it's just a redirection. Yeah, potentially. I know that it would be disappointing, but I think it's more of a redirection into where she's kind of meant to take the business.

[Joanna Fleming]

Agreed.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I don't think it's a surprise that given what I got on the mic and spoke about on our MCO episode, that my view is we have a copy paste culture in Australia in product and this will always happen. It will continue to. And it's not the first time or the last time. It's gonna happen in beauty or fmcg, which is fast moving consumer goods. Sorry to give you the nerdy talk acronyms there. That's when something's sold in the supermarket. I think it's important to remember that a lot of the time these bigger brands look to smaller brands that are creating things or brands that are doing things in other countries regions to kind of go, I can lift and load that a little bit and give it a 20% differentiation. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were a few references that were in the office as they are for any other brands. But it is an interesting one and I will be intrigued to see how Gem differentiate themselves from other brands as well.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, I will say I haven't personally used a shaving foam in a long time because my full body's lasered, so I personally don't have a need for the product.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I lasered my entire body and Then it all fucking grew back when I did IVF and I was like, so I've just spent.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

That's another reason I don't want to have kids.

[Joanna Fleming]

I actually feel like I want to try a shaving foam now. I feel like I'm missing out. I'm gonna. I'm gonna buy this one.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

It's totally revolutionized the way that I shave.

[Joanna Fleming]

Really? Yeah. Okay, so I'm just gonna be like, actually, that's probably why I did it.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Did you not use a shaving gel or foam, like, as a teenager?

[Joanna Fleming]

No. Really, guys? I still wear body wash, Mum.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

She deprived me as a child.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

We have black and gold shaving foam in the shower.

[Joanna Fleming]

Do you have brothers? I do, yeah. There you go.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Is that why I would have had. No, I think my mum used it for her legs, actually.

[Joanna Fleming]

I've got a brother. What am I talking about? Ignore me, everybody.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

All right, I get it. I'm left out. No brothers here.

[D]

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[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Okay, we have opinions, please. Next. And. Oh, I just want to start off by saying pre warning. This is a pretty heavy one. When it came in, I think we all had the same adverse reaction, but this is a corporate dressing dilemma and this listener needs our help. So opinions, please. As you can probably guess is where all three of us get to weigh in and give our opinions. Today's submission is from a New Zealander. Hi, Nina. One of one of your own, Annika. Josh's name.

[Joanna Fleming]

One of my people.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Nina says hi. Big fan of stylish yell. Thanks so much. I need some style advice. I have a dilemma I'd love Jo, Annika, and Maddie to address. I'm 27 and work in a male dominated corporate environment. I had a brutally honest conversation today with a trusted older female colleague about why I'm not progressing as fast as my male colleagues. Our male manager has said profile is important when it comes to promotion. I have found this extremely unspecific. As a development area, I constantly receive good feedback on my work outputs slash performance and progress. So I was suspecting sexism. I tested it with an older female colleague who's worked in the office for 20 years. She confirmed my suspicions and said that there is a sexist culture. Reflecting on her own time there, she suggested I change the way I dress and cut my hair to be taken more seriously and appear older. Style wise. My three words would probably be along the lines of cute, comfy and functional. In the office, the cuteness is toned down, but it still comes out a bit. I dress like an older Gen Z, slash cuspy millennial that I am. I'm not the pencil skirt and heel vibe of an older millennial, but I'm not totally casual Gen Z either. I wear a lot of navy, black and gray blazers, knits, quilted jackets and wide leg pants. My best outfits are dresses and skirts, but nothing tight. Do you have any advice on ways to dress and style myself in a way that feels true to me but also could help me be taken more seriously in a corporate setting. I resent needing to think about this kind of thing, and as a Gen Z, I'm not willing to sacrifice everything to climb the corporate ladder. If I can't fit into the mold and be judged purely on my performance and outputs at work as a feminine, youngish woman, then that's their loss. However, I'm still keen for some hints and suggestions, as I'm sure I'm not the only listener in this book.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I've got a suggestion for Nina. I know that she asked us for style advice, but I'm going to give career advice here and that is to start looking for other jobs. If she suspects, and it is being confirmed by another woman in the office, that there is a sexist culture there and she fears that that might be interrupting her progress in her role or in her career in general. It is time to walk away from that organisation, is what I'm gonna say, and that could have some benefits because apparently switching jobs is actually better for your salary than staying in the same place. I don't think that anything Nina has said indicates that she's not dressing corporate leaning, or that she's dressing unprofessionally, or that she's presenting herself at work in a way that would mean that she would not be taken seriously or shouldn't be taken seriously as a woman. She's not wearing, you know, bold, bright things, trying to draw attention to herself. She sounds like, she's wearing corporate wear, she's wearing neutral colours to try and stay unnoticed, essentially, which she shouldn't have to do. But it sounds like she's dressing professionally already.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

And to consider something like cutting your hair to be taken more seriously in the workplace, that just enrages me.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

It's so hard and I don't think it's. I don't think it's necessary. I think you can find a workplace where you can still succeed and progress in your career and be paid more and not have to do any of those things.

[Joanna Fleming]

Totally.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

That's my two.

[Joanna Fleming]

I think it's just so disappointing that it's 2025 and we're still hearing so much about boys clubs and how they already are just so prominent in the workplace and women are still being marginalized. Like, it is so unacceptable on so many levels. And also to hear, like, an older woman, someone she's gone to, who, like, maybe she's wanting a little bit more comfort and empathy from this woman because she's clearly having a debacle in the workplace because she clearly wants to be there. She's written into us for advice and she wants some guidance. And. And you're so right, Jo. It sounds like everything she's doing already, from a presentation standpoint, is corporate and it's appropriate. It's not like she's wearing miniskirts and lace and just being, like, so different. But I think you should never be judged on your appearance, period. It should always be your marriage. You shouldn't feel uncomfortable that you need to conform to something to get ahead in a career. And I feel so upset for her because this older woman, who she's gone to for comfort, is also encouraging her to conform. And I feel like that in itself is just not it. Like, it's not a workplace for you.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Don't get me wrong, if Nina said, I'm wearing booty shorts to the office, I'd say, babe, we've got to, we've got something. But it just does not sound like that to me. It very much sounds like she's in a toxic work culture.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, totally. And this is unfortunately an ingrained bias that has long existed. I feel weirdly emotional about this because I had an experience in the workplace as an employee with a male and went to HR and there was an insinuation about what I had done to make that person feel that comfortable with the comments. And it reminded me that when I was leaving, one of my dear, dear mentors pulled me aside and said, you know, like, you do need to think about how you show up. And you are a young, attractive female thanks to that person. I didn't agree on that part. But, you know, like, sometimes just hiding yourself is a good thing to do in the workplace. And I was not in booty shorts or wearing anything sheer or anything like that. I definitely have always taken pride in my appearance, but professionally, I dress quite conservatively in those environments. It was pants and high necks and, you know, knits and heels and things like that. I feel like that is so, so awful. And my voice feels really shaky because I hate that we're still sitting here all this time later. The insinuation that performance or implication is dictated too, by what you are wearing, because it shouldn't be an invitation for critique or performance discussion. It should serve no merit in that conversation. It should hold zero weight.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

But.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

But it doesn't sound like Nina's describing anything out of the ordinary. And I'm inclined to agree with Jo. But I also don't feel that she should need to leave the workplace if she likes working there or wants a career progress there. It's. I don't know, it's really tough. I don't have all the answers on this. I still battle it myself. There's been many comments in male environments that I have felt uncomfortable with or that I have felt I've not been taken seriously because I do like fashion or have leaned into having fun in what I wear or how I dress or wearing a, you know, bold red lip or a winged liner. I'm fucking great at my job. I would hate to think that how I express myself through fashion and a personal element would ever distract or detract from my merit in the workplace.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And yet we're having these conversations.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I just worry that this is gonna hold Nina back. And I think that she can progress in her career and she can achieve the that she wants to achieve and it not hang on the balance of what she's wearing to work every day. And it does sound like without a management change in her workplace, that she's going to be stuck in this kind of situation. And the ABC actually wrote an article about new research that showed that switching jobs is one of the best ways to secure a pay increase. Workers between the ages of 21 and 34 are likely to earn an extra 7,500 from switching jobs. So they're. There's some extra cash to go towards your new wardrobe, Nina.

[Joanna Fleming]

There we go.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

So jump on, seek, and we'll speak to you in the coming months. Let us Know when you get a new job.

[Joanna Fleming]

You know what as well? Like, I actually follow some really cool. Can I say boss bitches.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

But like, you just did.

[Joanna Fleming]

I follow. Yeah, I'm gonna say I'm rolling with it. I follow some really inspiring women on Instagram and they are corporate women who are all about breaking the mold and breaking stereotypes, especially in the corporate space. So Nina, if you want to get some inspiration, K from finance. I actually don't know how we haven't talked about her before, but she is epic. She's kind of known for her, like, wearing these super cool outfits, so trendy, but like still looking very much like workplace appropriate and doing these poses in the bathroom every day. And it's like we're talking like she's kind of down, like a B boy stance, like she's just doing anything and she's. She's showing you that you can still have personality and personal style in a corporate space. And you need to find somewhere that celebrates that.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

And then Lisa Ng, she is just the chicest corporate lawyer and board advisor. It's in her Instagram bio. Obsessed. Like, I'm obsessed with her. She's so cool. And every day she just like, does these cute little outfit videos and she talks about things that are happening in her job. She is such a boss bitch. But like, these women out there who are aspirational, they're relatable and they're also paving the way for what the future should be for women in fashion and business. But you can merge the two and I feel like you might find a space where it's celebrated. You should not feel like this. You should not go to work worried about what you're wearing and how you're gonna be perceived by men. Like, sorry, but who gives a fuck? Let's find a better fit.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And unfortunately, this is an ingrained reality at the moment and I don't feel unless we continue to rise over it and push against it, that it will change. But I would also give Nina the advice of bodies similar to that of fair work here in Australia. This is not a fair way to be treated in the workplace. And there are systems and processes in place to protect people like her from being discriminated against because of their gender or because of something as trivial as the style or colour of a sweater and pants that she's wearing to work.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Also, there is a reality that certain industries and certain offices have different standards for the way that they dress and the way that they show up. So. So let's take shameless media here. Right. All female environment. You can get away with wearing a mini skirt here on a hot summer's day.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

My personal opinion is that not every office environment is conducive to wearing a mini skirt.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

Totally.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I believe in that standard. I mean, you only have to go on TikTok to have a laugh at, like, revolve have been absolutely torn to shreds for what they had in their office wear Edit. It looked more like what I was wearing to the club when I was like 22 than what I would wear into the office, literally. And I've worked in all female environments. I'm not saying this like, oh, don't wear a mini skirt because of the male gaze. Like, I just don't think it's appropriate sometimes to be in certain industries or offices.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

If you work in a corporate office, it would be expected to wear corporate wear.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Exactly. And I mean, even like the office siren trend. I'm like, wait, no, I feel like you guys maybe not grabbed the right part of that. I often get asked, like, what are your corporate brand suggestions? Where should you go? So for me, COS is like one of my north stars. I think they do a really good job at great pants. Lots of suiting inspiration, lots of shirts. I also love uniqlo, their men's shirt section. So good. By the way, people always ask me where I get my shirts. I'm like baby dolls. When you're all turning left into the women's wear, I'm going right to the men's. Love an exaggerated collar and sleeve. I think they're always great. Vic and woods. Little bit more pricey versus the other two, but I think great. Even just for inspiration. If you're looking for workwear, again, just great pants and things like that. But where would you guys. Jo, I know that you. It's been a while since you've been in a corporate office.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

It has been. Yeah. I'm normally in my dressing gown at.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Home and we love it. We love it.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I show up to our calls on a Friday in my dressing gown. I would say Unison and Seed for more, like, affordable end of the spectrum versus, like a Vic and Woods.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yes. Love that.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Nice, Great ones.

[Joanna Fleming]

I feel like my office is just so unique because we are a fashion office and we obviously celebrate, like, anything and everything. Some days the office will be like maximalist style. Other days we're very understated, but we kind of have this, like, unspoken uniform because I guess all the girls are obsessed with one of others, which is one of the brands we rep. So we're always head to toe, one of others. And it's all about sharp tailoring with a little bit of fun and personality.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I want to come work in your office. Come work in the office with one of us.

[Joanna Fleming]

I know it's doing incredible things for us, but even today, like we very much still wear like denim and a nice blazer. It depends on the occasion. But it's also like we don't have a uniform in place. There's no kind of strictness around it. I mean, working in fashion, I love it because our team always does celebrate their own individual style, which is cool. It's actually funny. I kind of think like shit, if I worked corporate, what the hell would I wear? I'd probably be getting judged daily in this over exaggerated sleeve and a little bit of lace popping up.

[Anika Joshi Smith]

I actually can't imagine you working in a coffee.

[Joanna Fleming]

Would one dip now.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I kind of want to see you in a turtleneck and pencil skirt though.

[Joanna Fleming]

Next we week, Steve Jobs. Here she comes.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

That is all for this week's episode of Stylish. Thank you very much for joining us and of course thank you both Annika Joshi Smith and Joanna Fleming. Remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-ishameless media.com or you can slide into our DMS over at Stylish Pod. And we can't forget to thank our lovely audio engineer, Jonathan Last and the shameless media team head of podcast Lucy Hunt and senior podcast producer producer Kate Emmerburgh. We'll be right back with you next Wednesday.

[Joanna Fleming]

Bye. Ciao. We never say thank you, medicine. Thank you. Medicine's other thank you paving the way. This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be aboriginal land.