Unpacking that Who Is Elijah $1.4m tax debt headline

Summary

Style-ish Podcast Summary

Episode: Unpacking that Who Is Elijah $1.4m tax debt headline
Date: April 9, 2026
Hosts: Rhiannon Joyce & Naima (Shameless Media)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the recent media firestorm surrounding Australian perfume brand Who Is Elijah and its alleged $1.4 million tax debt, as reported by The Daily Telegraph. Hosts Rhiannon and Naima unpack the headline, the ensuing online conversation, and broader themes like tall poppy syndrome, the role of personal branding in business, and whether consumers should care about company debts. Industry context and listener perspectives are brought in to question the fairness and motives of such media coverage, especially as it relates to female entrepreneurs.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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Intro & Word of the Week: A24

[00:18 - 05:49]

• Hosts: Introduction & tone-setting. Naima is introduced as Shameless Media's Head of Social; both hosts bring an informal, inside-baseball vibe.
• Word of the Week: A24
  • Rhiannon picks "A24" to highlight their creative, memorable film marketing (not just a production house, also a distributor).
  • A24’s Unique Marketing:
    • "Literally every single time they drop a film, I go, bang. That's an A24 film." – Rhiannon [01:33]
    • The recent film "the drama" starring Zendaya and Robert Pattinson, and their viral "mock proposal" campaign.
    • The branding is so strong "you’re not saying, ‘I can’t wait to see the Paramount film coming out.’" – Naima [04:13]
  • Takeaway: The concept of distinct branding becomes a segue into the examination of Who Is Elijah’s public image and strategy.

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Who Is Elijah: Brand Background

[05:54 - 11:43]

• Brand Profile: Sydney-based perfume brand, founded by Raquel Boris and her husband Adam Boris. Known for founder visibility and distinctive social media presence, "building in public".
• Marketing Approach:
  • Raquel is the front-facing founder, frequently documenting the brand journey and cultivating a ‘character’ for followers.
  • Perceived as one of Australia’s "OG dupe brands", especially referenced in comparison to luxury fragrance labels like Le Labo.
  • Viral moments and celebrity connections, with global stockists (Sephora, Ulta, David Jones).
• Transparency:
  • The brand has openly shared impressive sales numbers (e.g., $2.2 million in Black Friday sales 2023; $20 million valuation).
    • "No one really shares sales data, particularly for Black Friday. So I love a little bit of a sneaky insight." – Rhiannon [09:51]
• Personal Brand Strategy:
  • "It gives me a character to hold on to... If it's just her [Raquel], she can just get in front of a camera, do quick pieces to camera, and continuously put out this content." – Naima [10:37]

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The Daily Telegraph Tax Debt Headline & Social Reaction

[12:04 - 24:45]

• The Headline: Daily Telegraph (March 31) reports Who Is Elijah owes $1.4 million in unpaid tax and hundreds of thousands to suppliers.
  • Source: ATO credit defaults and supplier inquiries.
  • Raquel’s official response: “We are currently in a phase of refining and strengthening the business...these do not accurately reflect the current position." [13:01]
• Media Tactics:
  • Rhiannon questions the public relevance:
    • "When I read this piece I felt confused as to why I was reading this...why is this information relevant to me?" [14:07]
  • Discussion of “hit piece” vibes: Media supplementing weak financial news with workplace Glassdoor allegations.
    • "I think their decision to go digging for this on Glassdoor and to use that as a way to beef out the piece felt very intentional." – Rhiannon [16:38]
• Industry Norms:
  • Hosts note ATO debt is not uncommon for small businesses ("being in debt to the ATO seems like the norm" – Naima [14:07]), and the dollar amount isn't alarming compared to the company's scale.
  • Consumer sentiment in brand’s defense—protective and supportive of Raquel, critical of the media (Tall Poppy syndrome cited).

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Tall Poppy Syndrome & Australian Culture

[18:23 - 22:57]

• Community Reflection:
  • "There was a lot of references to tall poppy syndrome...when someone is doing really well in a public eye, they are often, you know, taken down" – Naima [18:49]
  • Australian reluctance to celebrate public ambition:
    • "It's cool to try until you're really successful and then it's not cool." – Rhiannon [19:57]
• Listener Engagement:
  • Instagram poll: 70% don’t care if a business owes ATO money, 30% do. Many had never considered it as a purchasing factor.
  • Listener DM on financial context:
    • "ATO debt on its own isn't necessarily a red flag, but when it's paired with unpaid suppliers...it definitely creates skepticism." [22:27, paraphrased]

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Media vs. Public Perception, Gender & Influence

[24:45 - 36:24]

• Raquel’s (now deleted) video reply: Summary (paraphrased):
  • She rejects claims of ongoing debt, says issue is resolved, and addresses rumors about business shutting down.
  • She does not directly address workplace allegations.
• Expert Quote – Jasmine Garnsworthy, Female Founder World:
  • US media doesn't cover small biz struggles as entertainment, but "Aussie media packages it up like a cruel form of entertainment. ...if you’re a forward-facing founder with a bit of success, it can feel like there’s a target on your back." [27:23]
• Double-Edged Sword of Building in Public:
  • Social media fuels brand growth but increases exposure to criticism. Brands must balance the reward of connection/visibility with the risk of public misrepresentation.
    • "Founders are arming an unfriendly media outlet with experiences and data they can weaponize against you and are also building a base of supporters who will rally for you." – Jasmine, via Naima [29:55]
• Female Founder Scrutiny:
  • “I don’t think it’s the same for women who are trying to start a business in any way...When you think about...funding...there is a small fine art group of Australian brands that are female founded that have been able to do that.” – Rhiannon [35:28]
  • Example: Zoe Foster Blake and varying media treatment (focus on personality over business acumen, hints of sexism).
• Comparative Coverage:
  • Male founder Sam Wood’s tax situation less amplified on social. Hosts suggest increased scrutiny on female founders, especially those with public profiles.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:33 | A | "Literally every single time they drop a film, I go bang. That's an A24 film." | | 09:51 | A | "No one really shares sales data, particularly for Black Friday. So I love a little bit of a sneaky insight." | | 10:37 | C | "...it gives me a character to hold on to. So I think it feels very...like it's her journey then." | | 13:01 | A | [Quoting Raquel] "'We are currently in a phase of refining and strengthening the business to support where we are going next. In relation to the financial figures referenced, these do not accurately reflect the current position...'" | | 16:38 | A | "Their decision to go digging for this on Glassdoor and to use that as a way to beef out the piece felt very intentional..." | | 18:49 | C | "There was a lot of references to Tall Poppy syndrome..." | | 22:27 | Listener (via DM) | "ATO debt on its own isn't necessarily a red flag, but when it's paired with unpaid suppliers...it definitely creates skepticism." | | 27:23 | Jasmine Garnsworthy | "Aussie media packages it up like a cruel form of entertainment...If you're a forward-facing founder with a bit of success, it can feel like there's a target on your back." | | 29:55 | Jasmine via C | "Founders are arming an unfriendly media outlet with experiences and data they can weaponize against you and are also building a base of supporters who will rally for you." | | 35:28 | A | "I don’t think it’s the same for women who are trying to start a business in any way...there is a small fine art group of Australian brands that are female founded that have been able to do that." |

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• A24 Branding & Marketing: [01:21–05:49]
• Who Is Elijah Background: [05:54–11:43]
• The Daily Telegraph Headline & Social Reaction: [12:04–18:23]
• Tall Poppy Syndrome & Community Reflections: [18:23–22:57]
• Listener DMs and Context: [21:33–23:15]
• Raquel’s Response & Deleted Video: [24:45–25:29]
• Jasmine Garnsworthy’s Input (US vs AUS Media): [26:18–29:55]
• Risks/Rewards of Building in Public, Gender Scrutiny: [29:55–36:24]

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Conclusions

• Media Scrutiny on Female Founders:
  The episode concludes that although business debts are normal, the media’s focus—particularly using Glassdoor allegations and targeting a front-facing female founder—feels more like a takedown than objective reporting. There’s a wider issue of Tall Poppy syndrome and the challenge of highly visible, personality-driven brands in Australia.
• Consumer Responsibility:
  Most listeners (70%) don’t consider business debts when purchasing, but nuanced context (especially unpaid suppliers and cash flow issues) is important.
• Balancing Act:
  Personal branding is essential for modern businesses, but it’s a double-edged sword, especially for women founders who face extra scrutiny and cultural resistance to public ambition or vulnerability.
• Final Thought:
  The conversation opened up blind spots and offered food for thought: context matters, media motives deserve critique, and founders must weigh the rewards of visibility against potential backlash.

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For further discussion, listeners are encouraged to share thoughts via DM or email.

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End of summary.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

This episode of Stylish is brought to you by QV's face range for sensitive skin. QV face, powerfully sensitive. Skincare for life.

[A]

Hello, guys.

[B]

Happy Friday. I'm Rhiannon Joyce and I'm joined by

[A]

a new co host, but not so new for those of you who don't

[B]

know Naima, or perhaps haven't heard her

[A]

on the mic yet. Nymar is Shameless Media's head of Social.

[C]

Third time's the charm.

[A]

Third time's the charm. And the Friday F is quite good to have you because I feel you and I are sitting at our chairs, going back and forth and then me having to turn around. Nope, nope.

[C]

Yeah, same for the pod. Gil, the producer on Shameless, actually was giggling at us because we were like bouncing back and forth and then we went, nope, no more.

[A]

Usually that's Zara and Gil, and Michelle's

[B]

the one who has to step in and tell them, stop.

[A]

We have a lot to talk about today. You guys know this is the corner of Stylish, focusing on brand campaigns, career stories. We really wanted to focus on a headline today, one that has got a lot of people talking, particularly on socials, but also hit the mainstream media. If you haven't seen it, there has been some recent media coverage about Australian perfume brand who Is Elijah? And how that's been playing out online has been really interesting and the reason why we wanted to chat today. But before we get into that, word of the week, it's actually my word of the week.

[C]

And do you have a singular word or multiple words? Well done.

[A]

Yeah, I do. Big round of applause for me. I have a single word. Well done. Thank you very much. My word of the week is a 24.

[C]

Love it. I'm a letterbox head. This is very exciting.

[A]

So you saw this and thought, let's go, let's go. You can contribute to my word of the week as much as I can. Then, yeah, guys, if you don't know what a 24 is, basically, they are a really popular, I would say at the moment, a lot of people think they're a production house in film. They're actually a distribution house. So they are behind some of the biggest films in the industry at the moment. Most recently the drama yes, which stars Zendaya and Robert Pattinson. They also were behind Marty Supreme. They've become renowned for their marketing tactics and campaigns. Why I wanted to talk about a 24 today as my word of the week is because literally every single time they drop a film, I go bang. That's an A24 film.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's got a certain look, it's got a certain feel. They very much try and prioritize sourcing films that are very creative and directors take a lot of creative license films. You wouldn't really see a traditional network pick up.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So when I say network, the likes of, like 20th Century Fox or a Universal, you know, they try and go a little bit more off base. What is really interesting with the most recent campaign that they've done with the drama is, I don't know if you saw this initially when they announced this film, they did a mock proposal.

[C]

I loved it.

[A]

It was so good.

[C]

It got me. I was like, this is brilliant.

[A]

So they had a mock proposal piece run in a classic newspaper format, which is very reminiscent of how proposals used to be announced back in the day. So it always makes you think of Sex in the City.

[C]

I was just about to say Sex in the City. I was like, yes, Charlotte.

[A]

Yeah. Screaming when Carri and Big's engagement is announced on page six. So it was very reminiscent. I loved that initial launch for the drama. Also the way that they've seated out throughout the campaign. They don't ever actually tell you what the film is about, so they lean heavily into this. What would you call it? It's kind of like a surprise and delight.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Sort of model. One thing I find really amazing is, you know, when you see an A24 film, like the drama, what you actually hear people say now when they see an A24 film, like the drama is, oh, I really want to see that new A24 film.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That is marketing, branding, goals.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Particularly for a distribution house. Like, I can't think of any other player in that space where you would describe maybe Netflix, but Netflix for a very different reason. A24. For me, when people are saying, oh, that's an A24 film. I think alternative, I think cool. I think eclectic. Usually it's starring some top tier names, but then also has a mix ensemble cast of people that maybe you haven't heard about.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you love about a 24? Because you were excited when I brought this up.

[C]

Well, yeah. It's like you're not saying, I can't wait to see the Paramount film that's coming out.

[A]

You're not.

[C]

Well, I think they've definitely. There's been a journey. Like previous to that, they were very much only known as kind of like that indie film house. No, well, production house.

[A]

No, not production, Distribution. They do produce some films.

[C]

Yeah. And I think as they've kind of garnered this reputation of like the edgier film. I guess I feel like they've been able to get more and more budget and I would love to be in the PR and marketing offices of any of these movies because I love it. It's always so like left of field, especially with the drama where they Zendaya and Alana Heim will went to a chapel in Vegas.

[A]

Yeah, I saw that. It feels like no idea is off limits with them. Like their brainstorming sessions must be like, guys go big because we can do this. And it was really similar with Mighty Supreme. I know that got a lot of attention, their marketing strategy. A lot of their films have historically. Yeah, yeah. I feel like they're just doing great things at the moment and makes you

[C]

want to see the movie.

[A]

Makes you want to see the movie. But also my TikTok feed is blowing up with people watching the drama and then doing really good deep dives about the film. And the amount of of references to a 24, just broadly speaking as a key word is like through the roof.

[C]

Even in our like Slack channel, someone mentioned it the other day and everyone went, no, don't tell me. No, no spoilers. So it's like even that fact that like it's very easy now to see a spoiler, but people are like actively trying to avoid it. That means everyone's really excited to actually go to the movie. They're not waiting for it to come to streaming.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. All right, let's get into today's episode. Naima, take us through. What are we talking about?

[C]

As you said before, we're talking about the recent headlines around who is Al Pleasure. But before we really jump in, I'd love to know what was your first experience with the brand? Where did you see it? Is it one that you were familiar with before the headlines came out?

[A]

Great question. Definitely familiar with before the headlines had come out. I've never purchased any of their products before. I see them a lot on TikTok. They are one of those brands that I do feel is building in public. So Raquel Boris is the co founder of who is Elijah? She actually co founded the business with her husband and business partner Adam Boris. And one thing I noticed is she does feature quite a lot in the brand's socials. They have that founder led approach on social media. I'm also starting to see more of their team pop up. I would say the most renowned reference for who was Elijah, for me is them being one of the OG dupe brands.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Particularly The Le Labo fragrances. I see a lot of videos online talking about how they are more affordable alternatives to expensive products. That's my general vibe. Check with them. Yeah, what's yours?

[C]

Word of mouth. I have a few friends who have their sense and really like them. I actually didn't know that they were dupes.

[A]

I don't know if that's something that they advertise. It's just something I've seen come up a lot with consumers creating their own videos and labeling that way. I don't know if they're advocating that, like an MCO for example, who was 100% made duping part of their branding strategy. I don't see that as much for who is Elijah? It's more so a consumer is interpreting that. But I could be wrong there.

[C]

Maybe it's just like a thing that's organically happened and you know, good for search terms so they kind of run with it.

[A]

We are going to do a little bit of a background on who is Elijah for you guys, but we'll do that right after a word from today's sponsor.

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[A]

Pharmaceuticals from July 2023. So who is Elijah? Is a Sydney perfume brand. They actually went viral for their celebrity connection and big global deals with Sephora, Ulta and David Jones. They have a really strong social strategy, as you said before, Naima. They really tap into these viral moments. A similar brand in Australian landscape that I would compare them to other likes of Gem or tbh. That very similar look and feel on social media in terms of how they show up. They have claimed who is Elijah is a $20 million empire, which is massive, massive, particularly for an Australian business. And just to give you an idea of how successful they've been, in 2023 they reportedly made 2.2 million in black Friday sales alone. So they've gone on the record and said that on a few podcasts.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

This has been a headline that's been picked up quite a bit.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And I think it's important to set that context up because what they've gone out to market and what they've said to people is that they are doing as a business.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I mean, I love that they're sharing that level of detail. No one really shares sales data, particularly for Black Friday. So I love a little bit of a sneaky insight.

[C]

Nosy. No, I want to know. Show me the sales stats.

[A]

Seriously. So Raquel has, I would say, positioned herself as a front facing founder of the business. More so than Adam. Adam definitely pops up in a few podcasts here and there. They're obviously in a relationship, so you see them on the social sporadically. But I would say Raquel is very much the front facing talent for this business. She has documented building her business from the ground up and has cultivated a personal following with that building in public strategy which we kind of see happen side by side a lot. And I would say is really a strategy that a lot of founders are reverting to at the moment because it does seem to be working.

[C]

Yeah. And I think it's smart for it to focus on just her. In lack of very social media term, it gives me a character to hold on to. So I think it feels very like it's her journey then from a logistical point of view as well. If you like focus on both of them, it's like then they both have to be in every video. Whereas if it's just her and I can, I don't know this for a fact, but I would say she's probably the person driving the social strategy. She can just get in front of a camera, she can do quick pieces to camera and she can really continuously put out this content.

[A]

Yeah, I think as well, when you have a relationship dynamic playing out in the workplace, it's really important. And I have never worked with my partner. I really respect people that can manage that. But it seems to me that the most important thing is to have really clear roles and responsibilities. Perhaps the social media.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Rollout does sit in Raquel's camp, and then Adam's responsible for other things that align with his skill set. In Raquel's official bio, she does actually describe herself as the brand's founder and creative director. And immediate coverage that we could find. I did find it was interesting. A lot of the images are mostly of Raquel. Yes. Not them as a couple or Adam standalone. And I do think that's intentional.

[C]

And when you say images, do you mean in the media coverage?

[A]

Yes. So images associated with articles about them. Raquel features heavily.

[C]

Very interesting.

[A]

But again, I'm going to put a pin in that because I want to deepen this a little bit later.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, let's talk about the chatter this week. Naima, can you give us a really quick recap of what's been in the headlines? If someone who's listening to this podcast hasn't heard it or seen it.

[C]

So there was a Daily Telegraph article published March 31 which alleges that the brand is facing over $1.4 million in unpaid tax debt and hundreds of thousands to owed suppliers. Sorry, that probably sounded like I just read that off my screen.

[A]

You did, but do you know what? When you're reporting on a head, it is okay to read off the screen. So read away.

[C]

This was also made into a social media reel, which I think where we saw a lot of commentary play.

[A]

Yeah, that was where I first saw this piece. I didn't see the headline on the Daily Telegraph. I saw one person in their social team doing a piece to camera reading out the article, which has become a very popular strategy for the likes of the Daily Mail and local media outlets. As you said, the comments section on these videos, particularly the real and the TikTok, were blowing up quite a bit.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

A lot of people wanted to weigh in on the coverage of this article, the relevancy of it, what they were actually trying to achieve. Yeah, it was really interesting seeing the sentiment. Be quite honestly, the word I would use is protective and defensive of Raquel and it was Elijah.

[C]

And quite critical of the Daily Telegraph.

[A]

Definitely. Definitely critical. So I'm going to pull a quote from the pace so you guys understand a bit more about what this feature was actually about. So the ATO, which only lodges credit defaults that are more than 90 days overdue, has a registered default of $1.4 million as of March 17. The credit inquiries on the brand have soared Since Jan from 1 to 2amonth to 16 inquiries in Feb and 44 so far in March, with a wide range of businesses seeking information on the company's ability to pay its invoices. Raquel also responded in the piece and said, we are currently in a phase of refining and strengthening the business to support where we are going next. In relation to the financial figures referenced, these do not accurately reflect the current position of the business. I want to start with the way that the Daily Telegraph has reported on these ATO tax debts because viscerally when I read this piece I felt confused as to why I was reading this piece. Like why is this information relevant to me?

[C]

I 100% agree with you. I was like is this news? And I'm obviously not an accountant and my style of marketing is a bit more creative and less analytical for me. And based off my knowledge of how small businesses work, being in debt to the ATO seems like the norm.

[A]

Well, that was where a lot of the sentiment went in the comments section. So a lot of business founders that I follow, Brittany Saunders being one of them, who actually made a reel that you referenced, you now know it's Naima. A few others that I saw in the comments section were coming in defense of Raquel and who is Elijah and giving context as business owners around the normality of having debt.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Now again, I'm not a business owner. I don't understand and I appreciate that for all different businesses there are different expectations and scope of debt that they're probably comfortable with.

[C]

As of 2025 to 2026, their valuation is at 20 million. That obviously doesn't cover their costs in general. So that's not their full amount of profit.

[A]

Yeah. So basically valuation is the estimated market worth in the context of this being a $20 million business, allegedly, yeah. Does the $1.4 million feel like a lot to me? Not really, no.

[C]

The normal consumer doesn't care about the details of that.

[A]

Yeah. It's interesting that a lot of the emphasis has been put on the debt that is owed to the ato. There are also creditors that were referenced in this who apparently are owed money as well.

[C]

I think what feels random is I think that they've gone looking for this information. A lot of the DMs that we got around this putting the COVID for the horse, but we did Poll our audience and a lot of the DMs that we got were, how would I know that information about owing to the ato? So I do kind of question a little bit about what was the point of this article? Because I do feel like they've probably gone looking for this information.

[A]

I think the point of the article was for them to expose a business from the guys that they're giving the consumer context and insight into who they're spending their money with.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I just don't think it landed in the way that they were expecting. One of the reasons why this piece didn't land with me is the inclusion of the anonymous criticism and allegations about who was Elijah's workplace that were featured on Glassdoor. It felt to me that the Daily Telegraph didn't feel like they had enough of a headline with the ATO tax debt, so they had to pull in other information. I didn't love this. First and foremost, I think it's unreasonable to think that a business would have people leave their company and every single person in that company is going to be happy.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

People within their right to criticize and, you know, share their workplace experiences, whether they were positive or negative. I think their decision to go digging for this on Glassdoor and to use that as a way to beef out the piece felt very intentional. And this is where I think a lot of the criticism around it feeling like a hit piece or a takedown piece has come from.

[C]

Yeah, it did feel like they did go searching for this information. I obviously want to. I never want to discount someone's experience at a workplace.

[A]

No, absolutely not. If it wasn't great.

[C]

Yeah, it wasn't great. I think it feels like two separate points to me. You know, one's about debt and one's about work culture, and they've kind of been mashed together. I think there's just, like, an overall lack of contextualization within the industry. Like if they had pulled multiple small businesses that owe money to the ato, and it's like they're talking about consumers shouldn't purchase from these businesses when they owe money. Sure. But I think they've gone specifically for one person. And that's where it feels a little bit malicious.

[A]

Yeah. And that came out a lot in the response that people had to the media coverage. We will deepen that a bit more. But that will be right after a word from today's sponsor. There is nothing in the world like Parisian style. It's timeless, edgy, effortless.

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[C]

All right, let's talk about the comment section.

[A]

So, like we said, the Daily Telegraph video that went live on Instagram Reels and TikTok, they were both flooded with hundreds of comments from different founders. Just general people as well. People in the general public not really agreeing with how this business was being portrayed, but also how Raquel was being targeted. Yeah, I saw a lot of references to Tall Poppy syndrome.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Did you see that?

[C]

I did. There was a lot of references to Tall Poppy syndrome, which, if anyone doesn't know what that is. It's pretty largely associated with Australia, I would say. And it's when someone is doing really well in a public eye, they are often, you know, taken down.

[A]

Yeah. Or being criticised for being someone who is quite, you know, vocal about their success. Generally. There's this sentiment in Australian culture that subconsciously we carry a lot of Tall Poppy syndrome in how we perceive people who are successful. So it is something that I feel I've seen bubbling away quite a bit on social media as a bit of a trend and a reference point. I know historically we've referenced this article in our Wednesday episode. I believe it was Maddie who spoke about it, which was the Make Australia Ambitious again. It was a piece that ran on Rolodex Media's site and it garnered quite a lot of attraction and attention and conversations online about founders who build in Australia and how much Australia is not really set up for ambition or entrepreneurship. And Tall Poppy syndrome was one of the main themes that came out of that article.

[C]

Kind of that vibe that it's not cool to try. Yeah, it's cool to try privately.

[A]

Well, it's cool to try until you're really successful and then it's not cool. And all of a sudden we're turning our back.

[C]

There's like a. That thing before it goes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's a bit of a. Bit of a roller coaster.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I would describe.

[C]

I agree. There was obviously lots of founders in the comment section of this video. One actually even made a response video to this reel, which was Brittany Saunders, who's the owner of Fake, the label. We'd Actually had her on the pod before we have and I actually think it's quite a good comparison because she is also a founder who is really, really front facing and has built her brand in the public.

[A]

Yeah, that's a really great shout.

[C]

I think she is very vocal. She's very transparent about the sales, all of it. She is so upfront about it. This is quite a good comparison in my opinion. What was really interesting about her response video was that she kind of just said, this is normal. Yeah, she was like, I would have this amount of debt to the ATO as well. Because the way that this works isn't that you pay your tax month to month, you get handed a bill at the end of the financial year and that is often quite a big bill.

[A]

We really wanted to speak to our audience about this because that was a real talking point for me. Does the average consumer actually. Yeah. So we did poll our community on the stylish Instagram. We actually asked you guys, when buying from a brand or business, do you care if they owe money to the ATO? 70% of you said no and the remaining 30 obviously said yes. I do want to acknowledge that in the DMs, a few people did ask for the option of being like, I'd never thought about this.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think I sit in that camp as well. I would have answered no because I've never thought about this as a consideration for why I would purchase from a business. A business's debt owed is not a relevant metric for me to decide whether or not I'm purchasing from a brand based on historical. Yes, I will say we had an amazing DM from a listener that I did want to share because it has shifted my perspective slightly and I think it's really important. Context. We need to keep coming back to this point of context because I think fundamentally the reason why the Daily Telegraph piece didn't sit so well with me is because there was none of that context. This listener wrote, I answered, yes, but context is everything here. ATO debt on its own isn't necessarily a red flag, but when it's paired with unpaid suppliers or broader cash flow pressure, it definitely creates skepticism. I've worked in a business that was likely trading insolvent before going into voluntary administration, and the real impact shows up downstream and can be devastating. Employees, suppliers and customers are the ones who feel it. If things go wrong, customers don't need to panic, but they do need to read the room if those signals start to show up more and more depending on the scale of the Debt. I think how a business responds and takes ownership matters and I think people should care. On a day to day, it might not feel like it affects us as consumers, but we have a responsibility to vote with our pockets. I believe in supporting businesses to grow through hard times, but the ripple effects of poor financial behavior always land somewhere. And morally I don't support that.

[C]

Great dm.

[A]

Great dm.

[C]

Thank you stylish listeners.

[A]

Thank you. Because I have to acknowledge there was an element of ambivalence and an element of well, why is this relevant to me? I don't need to know this. Now that I've read that I'm like, huh. But what did you think of this listener's contribution?

[C]

I thought it was amazing because it did help me step out a little bit. I think I was like probably concentrating on the ATO part of it a lot. I think at any point a business owes suppliers multiple invoices. Like it's never like you owe someone the next day. There are long term ones. So at any one time you would be owing people lots of money. But I think I care more if it's smaller businesses that they owe money to. If they owe money to Ulta, I don't really care that much. To be perfectly honest with you. I don't know if that's a rogue. Like obviously Ulta also has employees, but they have enough money to like be they can survive. But if the suppliers that they owe money to are, you know, smaller scale, that's probably where I care more.

[A]

Yeah. And look, majority of our listeners did vote that it's not relevant to them.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So I would say I do sit with majority of the listeners. It's not something I've considered as a reason not to purchase from a brand based off what this listener has contributed and said. I definitely see the perspective of it from people who are directly impacted. I will say when I come back to this conversation and my fundamental issue at hand is this information ultimately was weaponized against Raquel and who is Elijah? I don't think the framing was fair. I do think Raquel was choice to delete the video is an interesting one. We don't know why there hasn't been any follow up video. Perhaps she just wanted it up for a short amount of time then just wants this all to go away. I'm not quite sure you've watched the video, right? I did watch it.

[C]

What was the general gist of it?

[A]

The general gist. And I can't give direct quotes right now because the video is no longer live. At the time of recording. So it's either been archived or it's been deleted. I'm not quite sure. But the link that I originally had referred to in the show notes is now broken.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So bear with me. I am paraphrasing based off memory, but Raquel essentially rejected the claims that they allegedly were in as much debt as what the Daily Telegraph reported. Raquel also addressed that they'd fixed this problem with ato. It had been resolved. This isn't something that is an issue anymore. And the way that it kind of played out to me, my interpretation as someone who was watching the video, was that it was all just a big misunderstanding. Raquel did not make any direct reference or call out to the allegations about a bad workplace environment.

[C]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

She did broadly speak to the fact that they, as a business, had gone through a challenging time in the last 12 months. Like many businesses do, they've had to make decisions that are hard, but she really backs those decisions to make sure that they can grow and evolve where the business needs to go. She also touched on some social media accusations and allegations that were made to her about the business shutting down. For example, there was a reference that their warehouse had shut down and that's why they weren't in a good place. She rebutted that and said that they'd outsource a lot of that responsibility. That's not her bread and butter. So it was time that she didn't manage that. It's not her biggest strength.

[C]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

So that was the general gist.

[C]

Someone I saw in the comments section was Jasmine Garnsworthy at Female Founder World, and she had a really interesting perspective on this because she's actually spent quite a lot of time in the US with American founders. And you actually reached out to her.

[A]

I did. I reached out to Jasmine because what Jasmine wrote on this video, which was essentially, and again, I'm paraphrasing here, was, this is why no one will build in Australia. And when they say build founders, entrepreneurs won't build companies or businesses in Australia, it really stuck with me. And I really wanted to go deeper on this, and I wanted Jasmine to elaborate and expand what she meant by that. I knew that she would have some really good expertise and insights about why this is different in Australia versus anywhere else. So that's pretty much what we asked her. We asked Jasmine, why do founders in the US have a different experience building compared to those in Australia? This is what Jasmine came back to us with. In my experience, US media simply do not care about the challenges of individual small businesses, whereas the Australian media often package it up like a cruel form of entertainment. Building a business requires a lot of vulnerability and humility and failure is part of the job. I think this pressure is compounded by the push to build in public. When you're a scrappy brand fighting for attention online, Aussie media also has some lingering weirdness when it comes to influences. You're laughing because you agree.

[C]

Yes, I do.

[B]

I can't wait to get back into that.

[A]

So if you're a forward facing founder with a bit of sense success, it can feel like there's a target on your back.

[B]

It's a real shame because I do think it limits the potential of Australian entrepreneurs and our small business sector who

[A]

need our support to innovate and compete.

[C]

Obviously, Raquel wasn't an influencer to start with, but she's used a strategy that, you know, influencers use, which is personal brand. So she's built in public. She's essentially used what influencers use. Talking to camera, like having these really taking people on a journey. And she's a character. She's a character. You know, when the Australian public sees people try visibly online, they don't like it.

[A]

No, it's not even just the Australian public. I do want to come back to Jasmine's point around the Australian media.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot of the sentiment in the comments section was Big Dog taking down Little Dog.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It felt like the Daily Telegraph were trying to undermine their business. And again, coming back to the use of imagery, the fact that Raquel is featured so heavily in not just the Daily Telegraph piece, but also the other pieces that have been picked up. News.com's picked it up. They did run with a photo of Adam and Raquel. I think they were the only publication that did that. But there were two or three publications that basically had gone to Raquel's personal Instagram and just pulled photos of her.

[C]

Yeah, that is a good point you make. And I, I stand corrected. Around the public versus the media. Because when you go into people's comment sections where people have really engaged communities, it's overwhelmingly often positive. They want you to build and they want to see the journey. So I think it's quite a stark difference.

[A]

Well, it doesn't really marry. Well, maybe it does then. Sorry, I'm kind of disagreeing with myself on Mike because the media is putting out this story.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Knowing that Raquel's name, Raquel Boris is going to get headlines.

[C]

I think that's part of it.

[A]

That is definitely part of it, it might not be the sole reason, but it's definitely part of it. The choice to take this article and turn it into a cut down on social media is deliberate because they know that this is the kind of article because this brand is building in public. They have a heavy social media presence. Of course they're going to then take that and put it in a video format on social media. Yeah, I just think it backfired.

[C]

I think also because there has been controversy in like recently with Sarah's day, they think this is clicky as well because of that.

[A]

Yeah, I agree.

[C]

There's probably that influencer connection through there.

[A]

Interestingly, I feel like you've touched on something similar to what Jasmine talks about, which is this double edged sword that plays out and who is Elijah is a really good example of this. Can you elaborate on what Jasmine said?

[C]

We asked Jasmine, do you believe there's a long standing experience with Tall Poppy syndrome or do we think it's a recent shift? Which she responded with? Entrepreneurship and small businesses are more visible than ever. The founder experience in particular has been humanised by brands building in public. It's a double edged sword that we see play out with who is Elijah? Last week. Founders are arming an unfriendly media outlet with experiences and data they can weaponize against you and are also building a base of supporters who will rally for you. So the reason I found this really interesting, I mean obviously she has summed that up so beautifully, but for me it's almost impossible to build small businesses now without harnessing social media.

[A]

I could not think of a single one. I can't, I can't think of a single one.

[C]

So as this like says a lot about my algorithm, but also it's just like the state of the world. It's like you, you promote on social media, that is how you market top of funnel now. And it's the easiest way to market top of funnel.

[A]

But do you know what? It's not even just small businesses. I think about road and I know we talk about road all the time, but even Rare beauty and these celebrity businesses, they have to attach it to a face. They have to attach it to a person. Even the trend that we're seeing, and we spoke about this in a fortnightly Friday episode a fortnight ago around, you know, businesses using creators and you know, people to create personalities for their brand.

[C]

Yeah, you need a face behind the brand now. And it's like often what will work and what someone on social will relate to is a face.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Because it's human and it's a consistent face. And for, you know, a small business, you're not gonna have unlimited funds. So what's the easiest and the cheapest way to do it? When you're starting off, it's to put your face in front of it.

[A]

Yeah, it's tricky because I definitely see a really clear reward for brands. There is an obvious benefit from implementing a founder face strategy, so I sit with that. But I also ask myself when I'm sitting with it, I'm like, is this just the necessary risk that also comes with that reward? And I feel like founders really need to ask themselves that when it comes to deciding on whether or not this strategy works for them. Because at the end of the day, it will really depend on the individual founder and the business. They need to ask themselves, is the risk and reward worth it? Because I don't think you can just take the reward without the risk. And I do think it's something you need to think about. I thought about Zoe Foster Blake a lot when I was researching for this episode because it took me back to a time when she sold her company, but then she had to buy it back. And again, a lot of the commentary and the headlines focused on Zoe Foster Blake, the person and the personality, not the businesswoman, the super successful founder. It was very much about yes and how she shows up online, which was really interesting to me. But also it felt like there was a negative connotation to the fact that she had to buy her business back. She sold a multi million dollar business, she took it back, she's running it. By all accounts, go to was still a very popular brand. I felt that there was a layer of sexism when it came to those headlines. One example, I would say that isn't a female that. I also feels really reminiscent of the conversation we're having about who is Elijah? And I don't know if you guys saw this, but but Sam Wood recently was featured in the Herald Sun. Yeah, the headline read, fitness Guru Sam Wood misses deadline in 7 million dollar tax stash. And allegedly he is facing a 7.3 million dollar tax dispute with the Australian Tax office relating to alleged unpaid tax across 20222024 financial year. So Sam Wood actually gave comments in this and he said the majority of the tax bill has been paid. My lawyer has been in correspondence with the ATO regularly regarding the final payment being made, adding that he expects the case to be withdrawn. The ATO stance is straightforward if the debt is paid and I quote within the proper time. This Proceeding will come to an end. So is this just a theme of the moment where.

[C]

Yeah, lots of tax related headlines.

[A]

But again I think the overarching theme I'm seeing here is tax related headlines. Sticky front facing business owner.

[C]

Would we consider Sam Wood an influencer?

[A]

Well, interestingly no, not anymore. I think he's transcended that title however.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you and I spoke about the self mic which is somewhat illegal but we're bringing it to the mic so it's popping banned. Is Sam woods primary audience female, would you say? Based on his origin story on the Bachelor and who his demographic is and his marriage to Susanna. I'm like setting you up here.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you tell?

[C]

Obviously I don't have his data, but I would say yes.

[A]

My assumption is a lot of his audience is female.

[C]

I agree. I would say a lot of his audience on his personal page would be female. Maybe it would be more of an even split on his business page.

[A]

Yeah, I'd be keen to see the start breakdown there. Funny though, because when I saw the Sam Wood headlines I saw the headline first before the conversation online. So lots of media outlets picked this up. There are probably three or four articles directly referencing this main piece that ran in the Herald Sun. Did not show up in my algorithm though.

[C]

Interesting.

[A]

So for that reason it's probably because I'm not a consumer of Sam woods content and you know, the algorithm is serving me what I'm already being served and yada yada yada, we all know how. But yeah, that's an interesting distinction there in terms of did it play out as online as much as the who is Elijah stuff? Probably not. And I would say that's probably because he isn't female.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that fair?

[C]

Yeah, I would say he's like. That's a good example of. Yeah, it seems to be a sticky topic at this time but there does feel like there's a bit more scrutiny.

[A]

Do you know what though? It's so hard for me to sit here objectively and say it's the same because I don't think that. I don't think it's the same for women who are trying to start a business in any way. No, in any way. When you think about, you know, beyond how they show up on social media and being a front facing founder, you know, funding. It's so hard for women to get funding for their businesses. You know, expansions in to other countries like that is incredibly difficult. There is a small fine art group of Australian brands that are female founded that have been able to do that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, I think just broadly speaking, for female founders, it is harder.

[C]

The questions that are asked are different, I would say, for a funding as well. I saw a TikTok from the founder of bareface Media where when she went for funding, the questions that were asked about to her were if she was going to have children. So I think there are just like different expectations.

[A]

Definitely.

[C]

Sorry, that's a whole other term.

[A]

No, that's a whole nother can of worms. But, you know, I think it's a really good space to leave at nightmare. Because ultimately why I wanted to have this conversation was to unpack this piece and the motivation behind traditional media outlets and whether or not that was fair. So I think we've done a pretty

[B]

good job of doing that, if I say so myself.

[A]

But also it's been really good having the perspective of our listeners and those, you know, that 30% and that listener who sent us that DM to consider. Does this impact how I would purchase from a brand? Probably not in its entirety, but I am glad that I have that perspective and that blind spot's been opened up club.

[C]

Yeah, I have loved this conversation.

[A]

I've loved this conversation as well. Guys, that's all for today. Our next Stylish episode will drop in your feed on Wednesday.

[B]

Feel free to email style-ishamelessmedia.com or sign into our DMS over on Stylish Pod to keep chatting with us.

[A]

We love hearing from you. We love that you all contributed to this episode. Thank you, Jasmine, as well, for contributing. We gave her a really tight turnaround on those questions and she came back to us and with such great knowledge and expertise, and we really appreciate it. A final big thanks to our production team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt, and

[B]

senior podcast producer Kate Emma Burke, who's

[A]

in the room with us right now. Thank you, Kate.

[C]

Thanks, Kate.

[A]

And thank you, Naima, for joining me.

[C]

Thanks, Ray.

[A]

We'll see you soon, guys.

[C]

Bye, guys. Bye.

[E]

This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land.

[A]

Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Hello, everybody. It's us. Shock, it's us again. Whoopsie.

[E]

We felt like we haven't spoken to you guys about Shamemore much recently.

[A]

No.

[D]

And the thing is, we may mention shame or Little bit in our general episodes every now and then, but if you don't actually know what it is or you've come on and you feel like we've never explained it to you. Shame or is the subscription arm our subscription arm of Shameless?

[E]

Do you get it?

[A]

Shameless or Shame More.

[C]

Ah.

[D]

When you subscribe to Shame More, you

[A]

get a few perks.

[D]

That includes early access to most of our episodes that are completely ad free. Also, twice a month, we drop exclusive episodes that only Shame More subscribers can hear.

[E]

Yeah. So on Shameless, you get our takes on pop culture. Over on Shame More, you get more us. I guess so. Every month we talk about the Roman Empire topic we secretly can't stop thinking about. We also welcome you into our inner circle, where the people closest to us in our private lives ask a big question that we then tackle live on Mike.

[D]

If you subscribe to Shame. More today, you immediately unlock dozens of exclusive episodes. Everything from Misha's recap of the first few months of motherhood.

[E]

Your relationship with fear was a great one.

[D]

Yeah. To what we both visualize when we think of the afterlife. We really go here, there, and everywhere. As they say, here, there, and everywhere. Can I also say, oh, someone said to you recently that they thought that because we only ever on our Instagram put up Shame Moore, ask us what you want. They think It's Q&As.

[E]

Yeah, but you do get an ask us Anything portion in every episode as well.

[D]

It's just at the end.

[E]

It's at the end. So if you're thinking Shame More is just an ask mission. Zara, Anything.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no.

[E]

We're talking ad free. We're talking early access. We're talking exclusive apps, including little Ask Us anythings at the end.

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That's it.

[D]

Subscribing on Apple podcasts is easy. Just click the locked episodes in the Shameless feed and follow the prompts over on Spotify. You just need to search for Shame or click into that feed and follow those prompts.

[E]

It's a little trickier. We won't lie to you. It is easier on Apple. But on Spotify again, we back you.

[D]

Yeah. You can do this.

[A]

You can do it.

[E]

I did it. I figured it out.

[D]

Thanks, everyone. Speak soon.

[A]

Bye.