← Sustain This!
Sustain This!
How a cancer diagnosis brought her to simplicity (ft. Sarah Horgan of Simple + Intentional)
00:52:06
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- [00:00]
Alyssa
Welcome to Sustain this, a podcast where we discuss mindful consumption, personal style, and the quest for living a more intentional life. I'm Alyssa, a sustainable stylist.
- [00:10]
Christina
And I'm Christina, a shopaholic turned minimalist. Ish.
- [00:13]
Sina
And I'm Sina, a color consultant and slow fashion style coach.
- [00:16]
Alyssa
Together we will unpack the nuances of what it really means to be a conscious consumer and find more joy in what we have right now. So grab your tea, your coffee, or whatever floats your boat and join us in the conversation. Let's go. Yay. Yay. We use the word intention a lot on the podcast, but what does that actually look like? Is it possible to be intentional while also allowing for the random plot twists of everyday life? Our guest today, Sarah Horgan, thinks so, and she's ready with some compassionate and insightful tips on how to live simply and intentionally while also allowing for the the messiness of being human. Sarah is a full time working mom who lived with clutter, but she radically changed her life after a stage four cancer diagnosis. Forced to examine everything, including perfectionism, people pleasing, she realized all the stuff and not just physical stuff that was getting in the way of her living her life. Today, Sarah creates Instagram and podcast content for her platform called simple and Intentional, which supports other women in finding their way to simplicity. We really think you'll like today's episode. Let's get into it.
- [01:33]
Sina
Hey.
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Alyssa
Welcome, everyone. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today.
- [01:36]
Sina
Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
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Christina
Yay.
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Alyssa
We're looking forward to today. Tell us how and when your journey to intentional and minimal living started for those of us who are listening or watching on YouTube and who are new to your experience and your background.
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Sina
Yeah. So in 2014, I was diagnosed with stage four cancer. I had lymphoma. And that was really like the big jumping off point for me because of course, when these things happen, it sort of gets you to deeply examine your life. And yeah, I just started listening to a ton of TED talks, like reading a lot of books. It was before I had my daughter. So I was alone. I wasn't working. Like, I spent a lot of time alone. So I had all this time for like deep reflection and I was tired all the time. Like I didn't have a lot of energy. So that was really what I did a lot of the time was read and watch TED Talks. So I started to understand that perfectionism, which was something that I fully was a perfectionist, wasn't really a positive Thing. Whereas, like, I had always thought about it that way. I'd always thought that it meant I was really detail orientated and like, I pushed myself really hard and that I was just thorough and. And you know, I just having this time, I started to dig into it and I was like, wow, this actually isn't really a positive thing. And I started to look at the ways that it had hindered me, you know, like the things that I hadn't done or I had started and not followed through on because of my perfectionism. The. And. And also pair that with people pleasing, which was another thing that I was a huge people pleaser. So I started to look at all these things, like, wow, I'm really just letting people trample all over my boundaries. I'm like really caring about that. I'm perceived as being nice, but like, you know, does that always work for me and that kind of thing? So, yeah, I would say it started there. And then during that time, also the minimalist book Everything that Remains came out and I read it and they actually came to Toronto for, you know, like sort of an event. And I went to the event and. And afterwards I did most of their men's game. The like 30 day thing where you get rid of one item on one day and two items on day two and so forth. And I didn't, I didn't finish it actually, because of my perfectionism, because I.
- [04:06]
Christina
It's a tough game though. It's hard.
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Alyssa
Can you explain how does it work? I'm not familiar with.
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Sina
Oh, yeah. So it's a 30 day decluttering challenge, and the day one you get rid of one item, day two you get rid of two, and it's like cumulative. So by the time you get to day 30, you're supposed to get rid of 30 items.
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Alyssa
Wait, I have a question. I'm sorry, I have a question.
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Sina
Yeah.
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Alyssa
So it's one item, one day, and is it the two items on the next day? Does that include the one item you gave away the day before, or is.
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Christina
The two items like two separate? Are you kidding?
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Alyssa
So by 30 with like a chair. I don't understand.
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Sina
So it was a lot.
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Alyssa
It's a lot.
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Christina
Yeah, it is a lot.
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Sina
It's kind of 30 items in one day.
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Christina
It's challenge.
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Alyssa
That's a lot. Okay, sorry.
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Sina
Sorry.
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Alyssa
Wow.
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Sina
There was a perfectionism, a perfectionist. I like totally went like fully hard in the beginning where I was like, okay, I'm getting rid of all this.
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Alyssa
Totally.
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Sina
I didn't follow the numbers. By the time I Got there, I was like, I don't have anything else, so. Okay, it makes sense. It's. Yeah, it wouldn't be my. Like, I wouldn't recommend that challenge to anybody, to be honest, because I feel like it's tough. Kind of burns you out. It's a little bit intense. But it was like a good beginning place for me to think about stuff. And, you know, I liked a lot of their ideas about minimalism. Now I would say I probably don't totally subscribe to their brand of minimalism anymore, but I agree, I agree. Yeah.
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Christina
Not to, I mean, whatever, but I feel like.
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Alyssa
I feel like everyone has a different.
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Christina
No, yeah, yeah. Like they're. I feel like they're a great starting point, but as you move in, it's like. Yeah.
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Sina
And I think also just being a mom now, like, that's something that I can see, like really working for people who don't have children. And, you know, like, when you have all this time like I did then to focus on myself, you can do something to that level. But it is really hard. So. Yeah. So I think really just going through that experience and just having all this time and like, you know, things like self love and I don't know, just concepts that I never really thought about. And I remember when I first came across self love, I was like, oh, I love myself. You know, and like. But then, you know, like years later you're like, oh, maybe I don't love myself. Like, you know, because we all have areas where we can love ourselves more. So it's sort of that introduction to these concepts that are like, so deep and like woven into our lives that all of us experience on some level. And I just feel like that was then and it was kind of the idea like, oh, I can actually make a lot of decisions about things that I didn't really think about before. So that helped me. And then becoming a parent had my daughter four years later in 2018. And at that time, that was like another level of whoa to get rid of stuff. This is hard. You know, having extra stuff just makes being a working parent really hard. You just end up spending your time cleaning and putting things away rather than having any time for self care or rest or anything like that. So, yeah, I would say those were really like the jumping off point for me.
- [07:12]
Christina
That's a lot in the sense of like having to sort of be faced with your own mortality. And then also, I guess, you know, as you're going through treatments and everything, you're almost having like nothing but time to Be with yourself.
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Sina
Yeah.
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Christina
I guess my question is, how did you stay positive through that? Like, how did you use it as a tool to grow from it and to come out of that?
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Sina
Yeah, I. I really got into mindfulness and meditation. I. It's something I'd sort of heard of before. And I should say, actually, previous to this, I had had this terrible job as a nanny, like, while I was looking for. I'm a teacher. So while I was looking for teaching work, I had this terrible job as a nanny for this family that, like, just everything was in, like, not aligned, you know? Like, I would take them to the park, and their mom would say, oh, I'd rather they stay home and watch tv. Like, things like that. That I'm like, what? But anyway, so I was not very happy in this job. And at that time, I. I got into practicing gratitude. Um, I came across this book, and it's like. It's kind of a cheesy book, but I. I swear I give it to everybody who ever goes through a hard time. It's called the Day Book of Comfort and Joy. It was like an Oprah's Book Club book, like, years and years ago, but it's sort of a day by day where you read a paragraph a day or so, and then the idea is you write down three or five things you're grateful for. And I just started doing that. And so I had that already as, like, a practice that I honestly really changed my life. And then I got into mindfulness and meditation and just this idea of sitting with yourself and, you know, just being present and, like, being with the heart, emotions. And I think, like, one belief that I have that came out of my cancer experience was that disease is not only rooted in. I mean, it's multifaceted, but it's rooted in our emotional health as well. And I believe that, for me, like, I lost my brother and my dad when I was younger, and I had experienced a lot of grief, but I don't think I necessarily processed it very well. And so in traditional Chinese medicine, like, your lungs are the grief center. And so I had this big tumor on my lungs. And so I. I kind of liken it to, like, if we experience stress and they relate that to disease, like, what is not, you know, emotional stress, like grief or anger or whatever. So I kind of looked at it, like, I had to process through these feelings, and I didn't want to, like, keep any of them in my body. Like, I wanted to be able to move forward from what was happening and feel like I Sat with the feelings, and I, like, lived with them. So, yeah, I kind of committed to that and just really kept it like a day at a time, a moment at a time. And I looked at all the positive things I had, you know, all the people, that kind of thing. And I don't know, it just really helped me. And I think it's helped me now, too, because anytime hard things happen in my life, like, I really feel like, emotionally I'm okay. Like, of course I'm sad or I'm angry or I'm whatever, but I'm okay. And that, like, we can't control our things that happen to us, but that we can control how we respond to them, and then that, like, really dictates our experience of it. So I guess it's like, really back to that intentional living part is like, we can have so much control over how we experience our lives and how we choose to see it and how we choose to respond to things. That that was just a belief that I adopted, and it really helped me, and I feel like it's really helped me, you know, subsequently, when other hard things have happened as well.
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Christina
It's all a form of letting go, I guess, that and that intentional living and, like, kind of simplifying. I think that ties in really, really well.
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Sina
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because really, you get down to, like, the bare bones of things and, like, what else matters? I don't know, like, how you feel and ultimately, you know, really, because you're with yourself. And I mean, other things and people matter, but, you know, you're ultimately with yourself. And I think that was another thing. Like, you know, just sort of facing, like, this illness is like, I'm with me. And, like, me is the only person who's really here with me all the time. So you gotta, like, get okay with yourself.
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Alyssa
I think what you're describing, like Christina said, it's, like, doubly challenging. And changing our belief system is uncomfortable when we are already in a, like, sort of peak mental and physical health state. How did you face any resistance, emotional resistance, personal resistance to changing these belief systems? And how did you overcome that?
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Sina
Yeah, I mean, I definitely had moments where, like, you know, old things came up, you know, like. Yeah, like online shopping, like, certain things.
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Alyssa
Totally.
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Christina
Yeah.
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Sina
This feels good right now. Like, this is a crap day, you know, or, like, watching a whole bunch of TV or whatever. You know, you have to have those moments. Moments where you can just sort of check out and you don't, like, be present all the time because it's so Hard. And I guess it's just like, you know, you kind of become a more aware of yourself. You're like, I'm doing that right now because this is. And so you're choosing it, I guess, a little bit more like, yeah, I'm gonna choose to spend this money, or I'm gonna choose to watch however many episodes of this show or whatever, because this is just what I need right now. Because you can't, like, also constantly be, you know, immediately present with everything all the time.
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Christina
Yeah. That's almost like, in a way, its own form of perfectionism a little bit. Yeah, totally. It's like, let me suppress this, you know, and just like, in the name of, like, the right thing to do.
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Sina
Yeah. And so I think, like, yeah, there's only so much presence you can have, I should say. Like, you know, but it was like an awareness. So, like, that sometimes I could choose things. Like, if I started to notice myself doing something, I was like, do I want to do it? You know, or do I think it would be better for me to, like, read a book or sit outside or do something else? Like. But yeah, I certainly didn't choose those things all the time. But, yeah, so I think it's sort of like coming in and out of it, you know, where you gain a lot from being able to be present with it. And you gain a lot from being able to. Yeah. Adopt the habit of being mindful so that you can become aware of yourself but then. And not hold on to these things, like, be really sad. Like, this really sucks. Like, I've stage four cancer. I, like, you know, lost my hair. I'm, like, really uncomfortable. I'm exhausted. It's like, hard to walk upstairs. Like, all the things that were, like, really hard and frustrating, you know, I'm on steroids, so I'm like, puffed up and like, you know, like, I don't feel great about how I look or anything. And it's just sort of, again, like, it's a letting go. Like, this is just not the time in my life where I'm going to really focus on my appearance right now. You know, like, I'm puffy and I have no hair. So that's just the way. Yeah, Yeah, I think. I think it's just sort of, I guess, an in and out, you know, those things, those comforts in life aren't to be, like, avoided either. Like, they're comforts too, and they're nice to experience. So. Yeah. Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
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Alyssa
Kind of getting back to more pragmatic Actions that people can take. Because I think we all, you know, we. We struggle with presence and awareness in a world where everything is constantly grabbing and seeking our attention. And, you know, it's human to want to accumulate things. So what. What's, like, the first action step someone can take if they're feeling this overwhelm, either internal or their external environment? What's. What's the first thing someone can do? Because, I don't know, I find when I get overwhelmed, I don't even start. It's just like, f. This. Like.
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Christina
Yeah. You freeze. Yeah.
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Sina
You know, or you, like, go into.
- [15:17]
Christina
You lean into it more sometimes, you know. Yes. The old habits. Right.
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Sina
Yeah, that's really true. I mean, I feel like I do that sometimes, too. Um, you know, I certainly. Because I. I told Christina this, that, like, I. My mom passed away at the beginning, like, at the end of the summer, at the beginning of the school year. And I totally have gone through this year of, like, you know, seeing myself start to, like, slide back into certain things or, you know, I have that awareness that I think one thing, because it's like the simplest, most portable answer, is that you can always, like, take a breath, like, take a pause, because I think that sort of pausing. Because you can get. Especially when you're, like, emotionally charged, I feel like you can almost get, like, a little bit manic in your. You know, what you're doing and just impulsive and, like, I don't know, you're not really thinking about what you're doing. So I feel, like, that pause of just, like, okay, I've got to ground myself a little bit. I'm feeling that, like, you know, I'm heightened, I'm emotionally charged, I'm impulsive, like, whatever it feels like to, you know, especially when it comes to, like, buying stuff, because I know, like, your content, Christina. Like, you know, I think. I'm sure, like, a lot of people are, you know, working on that, and it's really easy because everything's so available. Like, Instagram has a million buttons now. And, like, so I. I really think just practicing that kind of pause of, like, taking a breath or just, like, you know, feeling your feet on the ground or, I don't know, just, like, putting a hand on your chest or doing something to sort of, like, connect to your body a little bit and. And, like, get present. Because most of the time when we're in that state, we're not present. Like, we're, you know, thinking about other things or we're. Yeah, we're just not really in our body in the present moment. So, yeah, number one, I just always feel like it's good to do that. Like, I kind of do a similar thing to you with the list, but I'll, like, take pictures of something or, you know, leave it in the cart and come back.
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Christina
Oh, like, wish list. Leave with the wish list.
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Sina
Yeah. Yeah. I don't totally do it the same way, but I actually have started a wish list since I saw your journal because I feel like, cool tool.
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Christina
Thank you.
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Sina
Yeah, I really like it where I used to, like, kind of, like, take a screenshot of my phone or do something like that or just, like, leave it in the cart because, you know now, like, it's never gone from your cart. You'll get the email or you'll get whatever. Like, hey, you left this behind, but just kind of stepping away from that because most of the time. And, like, you say all the time, like, you. Most of the time you don't even want the thing, or you're like, why was I even interested in that? Or what was I thinking? Like, And I feel like, as a parent especially, you can get down this rabbit hole of, like, oh, my kid needs this. Like, or you start preparing for the next season. Or, you know, like, that's sort of a thing I tell myself a lot when I kind of get into a moment where I'm like, well, I should get the next size winter boots or something like that. And then I have to be like, nope, next year is a year away. Like, I don't need this right now. So I think it's just waiting, really, in different ways.
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Christina
Yeah.
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Sina
Self wait.
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Christina
I kind of want to go back to. So you started the men's game, and you mentioned that your perfectionism got in the way of you actually finishing it. So, like, what I'm hearing from your journey and getting into minimalism, or. I think. I think you really have more of a leaning of intentionality rather than minimalism. Like, I don't get the sense that you're all about, like, just aiming for the least.
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Sina
No.
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Christina
So it seems like your version of minimalism is a bit more personal and spiritual, like, decluttering the burden of perfectionism or, like, really coming into this awareness of. Of your tendencies and, like, things that you want that. Like, things that hold you back, that you wanted to let go of on a personal level, which I think is really. I feel like that's, like, peak minimalism. Like, that's such a hard place to get to, and it's. It's very easy to start with the stuff. So when you notice that you didn't finish that, the decluttering challenge with the stuff, and you realize that it was like, oh, this is, like, way deeper than the things. What did you do next? Like, how did you. How did you move forward from there?
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Sina
Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because, like, I don't know, I feel like I say it all the time to people. It's like, it's about so much more than stuff. And it is, because it's just representational, you know, like, that's what I started to see it as, was like, when I looked around my environment, and if it was really chaotic, it's like, what is it telling me right now? Like, what does this mean about what's happening in my life right now? And it could just be, wow, it was a really busy week, and stuff just got, you know, tossed around, and, you know, we were kind of scrambling. Or it could be, wow, I'm feeling really emotionally overwhelmed, or I'm feeling kind of depressed, like, you know, because we all have highs and lows. And I was just saying to somebody, actually, because I think when my mom passed away, then I had to clear out her house, and that was, like, the next thing on the list. So my brother and I, like, completely cleared out her house and filled two dumpsters of stuff. And, I mean, thank goodness I had, you know, practice the minimalism before.
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Christina
Yeah.
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Sina
It would have been a lot harder had I not. But I hadn't really, like, paused to. I mean, I cried and I felt sad, but, like, I think I just didn't have, like, a time where I kind of wallowed. You know, where you have something and you're like, I just need to be in sweatpants and, like, feel sorry for myself. And I hadn't done that. And so I was feeling that lately, and I, you know, was reading more books and just kind of checking out a little bit because I just needed to do that. But I started to notice, actually, like, my environment was starting to reflect that, like, wow, things are piling up on surfaces, and I have all these decisions to make that I didn't make that are usually easy.
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Christina
It's almost a symptom.
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Sina
Yeah.
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Christina
Like, it's. Your environment is a symptom of what's going on on a deeper level.
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Sina
Yeah. And so I think that's kind of like, how I took it was like. And. And relationships, too, are another lens that I think also shows a lot. But, yeah. That I can kind of look around and be like, wow, I wasn't able to make this easy decision this week, you know, because that felt like too much. And just to like give yourself grace for that, you know, it's like, this is what's happening right now. This is what's real for me. And it's okay because I think when we also see so much online, it can look like people maintain this level of perfection all the time. And it's certainly not true. Like, I, the reason that I've gotten rid of so much stuff on one level is because it makes it easier for me to maintain things. Like I'm a full time working mother. Like, you know, I have a side business, I'm a busy person and do I want to be busy cleaning my house? Not really. You know, like I want to be busy doing things that fulfill me or, or you know, or time with my daughter or whatever. But that, so making those decisions on a regular basis, like putting something away, you know, that's a big one. Like people get stuck because they just put things down instead of putting them away. Like those kind of things. It's like deeper habits that seem so benign. And I think what I've come to realize is like, the little things are never benign. Like they add up to how we live. So if you continually put the thing down and put the thing down, then you look around your space and you're overwhelmed. And you can have a time like me where I'm like, okay, this week I'm feeling kind of low. I just don't have the emotional capacity. I'm going to deal with that later. And I know I'll be able to deal with it later. But if, you know, like, I'm somebody who struggles with depression on a regular basis, I need to push myself to put these things away and make these decisions and that sort of thing. So I think it's kind of like again, it's like a self awareness thing, like looking around, being like, okay, what is my environment say about my life? What do I want my life to be? What do I want my environment to say? And what are the things that I need to do to start to have that be represented? And yeah, so I, I really do think that when we can connect to like how we feel emotionally, how we feel about our lives, how we feel about our relationships, how we feel about, you know, what we're doing for work and, and all those kind of things. Like, yeah, I think that when we can make that connection between physical and, and like our emotional lives, then you can really make big shifts because it, I don't know, it just suddenly doesn't seem so minor anymore.
- [23:55]
Christina
That's very insightful. And I think it shows the power, as you said, like the power of the little things and the small. The small daily habits and choices that really compound and add up over time. Like either they can work for you or they can be the reason that you're feeling overwhelmed, you know?
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Sina
Yeah, yeah.
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Christina
So where do you tell people to start if they, if they're feeling that way?
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Sina
I think like, if you can start with things that don't feel too precious, you know, like what are the things that are, you know, like the bathroom or the kitchen, like those places in your home where, you know, old nail polish or extra spatulas or whatever are going to feel less emotionally challenging to let go of than, you know, your closet or something like that. I mean, my closet, when I made that shift, was huge. I just want to say that I feel like was a big tipping point also that once I tackled that and dealt with the things in my closet and what that represented, that made a huge difference in my attachment to stuff, my shopping, all of those things. But I think the other thing you could do, and it really depends on how you feel and how you approach this, is you could also look around and what's the thing that's driving you the most crazy? Like where are you going to have the most impact? And if you feel like you have the emotional, emotional bandwidth to like tackle that, like maybe it is your closet first, then go for it. I think you have to sort of, again, it's like all of this is like building your self awareness, I think your self belief that you're capable of creating this kind of change too. And you really, that builds by doing it. So figure out where you can actually do it. And then I love that like Gretchen Rubin's one minute rule, which you know, is just kind of the idea of like not leaving things or picking them up and putting them away. And just like that thought habit, you know, of, okay, I'm gonna put this in the dishwasher instead of in the sink, or I'm gonna put this in the recycling instead of down by the door, whatever it is. Like if you're picking up junk mail. So I think, yeah, figure out where it feels the best for you. And it's low bar. Like I can throw out, you know, old makeup and that kind of thing. And that's easy for me. And then you start to create a space where you've created some change, then it's empowering to go forward.
- [26:21]
Christina
Yeah. I also read somewhere that that decision of whether or not you, for example, put something in the dishwasher versus putting it in the sink takes the same amount of time. So it's, you know, if you're, especially if you're trying to build that habit, like, it feels like the more annoying, more difficult thing to do, but choosing yes versus no on that actual decision takes the same amount of time. So it's just like, if it takes the same amount of time, then just like, just do the thing. And that habit compounds over time. Yeah, you know, I believe that.
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Sina
I could see that because. Yeah. What is, what is the difference really between putting it in the sink and putting in the dishwasher? Nothing. Yeah, it's just like you're adding.
- [26:57]
Christina
Making that choice is like the same, so.
- [26:59]
Sina
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And those are the little things. Like, I swear, I don't know. It's just the little things. Like.
- [27:05]
Christina
Yeah.
- [27:06]
Sina
And I think, I mean, I've said this to you before, I think, but about like, self worth too. Like, I think it gets so tied to that and you know, if. But it's hard to recognize, but it's like, you know, do you feel worthy of having like a really clean place or do you just accept that, like, well, this is just how I live or this is how I grew up or, you know, like. But do you feel like you're worthy of putting in the effort to.
- [27:32]
Christina
Yeah. And that can feel like. That can feel like a hard thing that could be so deep rooted that you don't even realize it. You know, you said something really interesting when you decluttered your closet. That's when you felt like you could really let go of things. Like, it felt really cathartic for you and translated to your shopping today. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think like, Alyssa and I and Sina, who is on mat leave right now, so miss her. But like, we talk a lot about that. You know, there's so much identity wrapped up in our closets. There's so much. There's stress, there's joy, there's memories. Like, there's a closet represents so much. Where do you think that transformation came from? Like, why was the closet that sort of tipping point for you?
- [28:13]
Sina
Yeah. So I did Project 33 3. That's kind of how I started. And I did it in March of 2020, which, I mean, kind of feels like a cheat because, like, shortly after I was like, I'm not wearing anything anywhere.
- [28:29]
Christina
Yeah, the sweatpants era left.
- [28:30]
Alyssa
It's all good.
- [28:31]
Sina
Yeah, yeah, it's great. So it helped me in one way because actually what I ended up deciding to do was like live with what I had mostly. And now I again I'm a teacher. So I was, I did go out into the world eventually more than other people. Yeah, I just really made myself not buy very much for a while too because I, I just knew like you're looking for the answer to how you're feeling in buying that. Next thing you know, like I came to know that about myself. Like if I was feeling crummy about my body or how I looked, then I would buy something and then I would feel like, oh, now that solved the problem because I have these pants that fit really great or whatever. But then, you know, as we all know like that feeling fades and it doesn't really solve the issue problem or the feeling or whatever it is. And so I think making myself live with stuff and this is, you know, like after I had my daughter too, you know. And like your body changes so much after you have a baby and like also I think just the whole self care thing because you're like taking care of somebody else. And so I'm sure like many, many women can relate to the fact that you suddenly are not taking care of yourself the same way. You don't have the energy or the capacity. And so it's already like, it's push, you know, to make yourself do those things. And, and oftentimes like even if I was exercising or something, you know, I'm interrupted or like somebody's climbing on me or something, you know, like it's like it's hard is like extra hard and you're like, oh my God. So sometimes you give up on it. And I just started to see like so much of what was in my closet was starting to like represent that and I, and so I was like, well, how can I lean more into self care? How can I lean more into, you know, just trying to accept myself as I am and love my as I am. And I still feel like that's, I mean an ongoing journey for sure that you know, is helped by taking care of myself. Because when I take care of myself I feel better about myself. But it's still like, you know, the temptation is still there. But I did feel like looking at these clothes and just thinking about it too, like looking at the money I spent and I didn't really feel terrible about myself or anything for that because you know, we all make mistakes. But it was like, wow, I was really seeking something outside of myself all the time to remedy this. When I do really believe that the solution for what we need or want is within us. You know, again, like, because I. Yeah, I think mindfulness and meditation teach you that, you know, when you're looking for answers. And it's so easy in this world, too, to, like, just Google things, but if you can just be with yourself a little bit. And so going through that closet and being with myself and just seeing this reflection of all the years of myself, you know, all the versions of myself or, like, all the decisions that I'd made or you know, what I was thinking when I bought certain things? You know, it was really a. Like a discovery. And I did really love using the sort of maybe box type thing where I packed away everything that I wasn't immediately ready to get rid of. But also just creating that spaciousness. Like, it's like pretending that you're doing it because you still have the stuff, but that you actually get to create the spaciousness and how good that feels. And I feel like that is a form of luxury. And again, it probably ties back to self worth. It's like, wow, I'm, like, giving myself this, like, space in my closet. It's easy to find my clothes. It's not a struggle. You know, I'm treating my clothes well. Like, all of these things. Like, I just feel it's so layered.
- [32:19]
Christina
Yeah.
- [32:19]
Sina
And I mean, I did this over years, too. Right. Like, I did Project 333. But then, you know, I came back and went through that bin of clothes probably three or four times before I got rid of all of it. And, you know, I still have times where I buy something, like when I'm sad, and I just now make sure that I can return things. Like, I always make sure I can return things. Because I'm like, I don't know right now. I'm not sure why I'm buying.
- [32:46]
Christina
Yeah.
- [32:47]
Sina
And so sometimes I, you know, I do the pause and I just leave it. And. But it does happen where I buy something, and I'm like, yeah, you were, like, looking for something here that isn't found here, so. Yeah.
- [32:58]
Christina
Or sometimes you don't know until it's in your hand. So I think that's a good shopping policy anyways, just to, like, if you're, you know, make sure you're not stuck with it.
- [33:05]
Sina
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. Because. But then, you know, if you are, which happens, like, then you just forgive yourself too, you know, like, you're. You're really. We're always a work in progress, and we're Doing the best we can. And I think just, just don't be so hard on yourself. But yeah, I do really think, like our closet, like our home, it's just like a reflection. But like you said, there's like a timeline to it. It's like, oh, yeah, this. Sarah did this.
- [33:35]
Alyssa
Can you talk to us a little bit more about forgiving yourself? Because I think that's a really interesting piece to all of this where there's a lot of shame tied to quote, unquote mistakes. You know, say if we, you know, after a few months or whatever, we see that we have accumulated a lot of stuff and then we feel bad about it and we beat ourselves up about it and it kind of spirals from there. So what, what's your method? What do you like to think of to keep that sort of grace, but also learning.
- [34:10]
Sina
Yeah.
- [34:11]
Alyssa
Instead of just giving ourselves a pass and being like, whatever, it's partly human.
- [34:15]
Christina
It's true.
- [34:17]
Alyssa
Oh, because it's also easy to do that, right?
- [34:19]
Sina
It totally is.
- [34:20]
Alyssa
How do you maintain that balance between self forgiveness and learning?
- [34:25]
Sina
Yeah, I think, okay, one thing I say is, you know, sort of checking in with yourself about like, you know, is this like an excuse you're making for yourself, you know, and recognizing when something's an excuse? Because I think that's like a good frame of mind to hold on to because we can do that. Like, self forgiveness isn't just like giving ourselves a pass to like do the same thing again next time, but that it's like, you know, I do tell myself, like, it's okay, you know, you made a mistake. And it's, you know, these things happen. And, you know, think about solutions sometimes. Like, because I think that's the piece, like, I think it's sort of like a dialogue sometimes I have with myself is just about, you know, you're trying to do better, you made a mistake. Like, I think that just kind of dialogue I have with myself for sure. But that barometer of is this an excuse or am I being kind to myself? Like the, you know, it's like, where is it kind to yourself to like, miss a workout three days in a row to give yourself rest? Or is an excuse, you know, like, let's think about that. Because actually, like, the workout is the thing that makes you feel better and like, takes care of your body as well and like, you know, taking one day off or two days or whatever. But, you know, when it starts to become a pattern and, and so I think it's just like, like that kind of thing Where I check in with myself about am I just like allowing myself to do something I don't want to do because it feels easier or this is like an old pattern. So yeah, like really, that self awareness, I, I really think it's like back to that. I think it's the hugest piece of all of this is just that's like a lot of what you get, you know, you get to build self awareness through just watching yourself do things and be like, okay, I don't want to do that again next time. And then the next time be like, oh, I'm doing that thing again so I'm. I'm gon stop myself. Or if you do like, because again, I mean there's so many things that happen in life that just make it hard to show up exactly as you want to show up all the time. Yep. And I just don't think it's reasonable and I think probably from like, you know, social media and all the things that we're like exposed to where people make these incredible transformations and it seems like you know, a year ago they were like this and now they're like this all the time. I don't think anybody's like that all the time. And I think that there have been lots of brave people who have shared like a journey where they've done that and then they've gone back. And so it's nice to see that because I think that that's real and that's human like that we have like, yeah, downs and so just acknowledging that like, yeah, that non linear transformation of, you know, we, we're going to come across harder and harder things as life goes on. Like the, the things that happen feel bigger and bigger. And so yeah, if you need to like spend a hundred bucks on something and in the moment it feels good and you don't really want to be doing that, you know, try not to do it again next time but like don't berate yourself and make yourself feel worse. It's a hundred bucks. You know, like money can be made again. You know, you could sell it, you could do whatever, you could give it to somebody if like, you know, you can do things that are good that come out of it too. But we all deserve like little things that bring us comfort when we're doing hard things. And we don't always have the right things available to us either. I think that's a piece of it too actually, which I don't know, like as I can say again as a parent, like we don't have a Ton of family support, you know, so, like, if you don't have a great family to lean on or, like, super great friends, like, you know, let's just give ourselves some grace. If you do something to make yourself feel good in the moment that you regret later and just try not to do it again.
- [38:16]
Christina
Can you talk about. You mentioned. So you're a mom. You're a mom now, and you mentioned about how, like, the minimalists might not be so. The minimalist method. The minimal. The minimalists, their. Their approach maybe not so great, or you. At least you didn't find it helpful when you became a mom. So can you talk about maybe some of the pressures that you felt when you became a mother in terms of, you know, I feel like there's a lot of pressure of, like, oh, I gotta get this to. And if I don't get this, then I'm not a good mom. Or like, my kid's not gonna be as, you know, intellectually stimulated if I don't get, like, the baby Einstein and blah, blah, blah. Like, there's a lot of pressure to. I think there's a lot of consumerism and almost like, moral pressure around stuff and things centered around your children and, like, how that represents you as a mom. So can you talk about minimalism as a mom and just like, intentional and simple living when you have kids?
- [39:17]
Sina
Yeah, I. I feel like for me, actually, when I was pregnant, I kind of went through, like, another level of this because it really did pull on my, oh, I need to have everything. I need to have everything she needs. And I. But I was also, like, quite frugal, so I did a lot of, like, secondhand sourcing. But I really did actually feel like I accumulated a lot more than I needed. And I think it's really easy for the reasons that you stated. Also because people tell you, like, so many people tell you, oh, you're gonna need this, you're gonna need that. And it took me a little while until Hazel was born that I started to, like, let myself buy things in the moment because I don't know what it is about parenthood. It feels like you need to have everything prepared. I don't know. It's the way people talk about. It's like, you need to have it all. You're not going to be able to get it. That one night the baby's crying. You're going to be screwed if you don't have this, you know? And so you get, like. It really does pull on that, like, scarcity a lot. So I actually really like, went back down into. That was like, a dip for me, where I was like, okay, I have to have everything prepared. And then I had way too much stuff. Stuff. So I did get rid of a lot of it. And even one of my friends remarked to me at the time, she's like, you spent so much time gathering everything. And I was like, I know. Now I'm just giving. She, like, she knew how much effort I put in, like, you know, doing that. Yeah. I think that it. It really is hard to avoid. But what I realized is that once you have a child, you see how little they require, and so you can start to, like. And that it. Having extra stuff feels burdensome because you have to manage it all. And you're so at your capacity because you. You know, you're doing so much to take care of this little person, and you have so little sleep that everything just starts to become burdensome. But I think you have to shut out the noise, too. Like, you just have to decide what matters to you and shut out the noise. So it does involve kind of. Of, like, building some confidence, but also, like, deciding, you know, what's your limit or what matters to you when it comes to parenting, because you can't do it all. But it's really hard. Like, I had to opt out of, you know, Facebook groups I was in with other moms and stuff because, you know, the time when, like, everybody was potty training, and I just didn't feel like it was the right time. It triggers you a lot. And so, you know, it's the same with, like, extracurricular activities and, you know, every. Like, everything that everybody else's kids are doing, like, you suddenly start to have those thoughts, like, well, should I be doing that? Should I do that? Like, am I. Yeah. Am I a bad mom? Because I didn't sign my kid up for piano lessons or whatever. So I think it's. You have to have a strong understanding of what your values are as a parent, and then you have to just, like, turn it off. And, you know, and people have strong, strong opinions. It's a really hard time to navigate because people do, like, they give you these forceful opinions about things, and it's rooted in especially, like, older, like, you know, grandparents. Like, people have already done it. It's, like, rooted in this, like, fear that, I don't know, they're not gonna, like, you're not gonna give your kids some experience or have something that, like, they never had. It's just so emotional. But, yeah, I think having it rooted in, like, what Matters to you. And then being able to be like, okay, you know, like somebody. I was at a family thing yesterday and somebody was telling me something really strongly about. And they were, like, arguing with me about it. I said, I just really don't agree with you, you know, but let's not talk about it anymore. But I don't know, you have to really get rooted in what matters to you. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's a battleground.
- [43:07]
Christina
It sounds like it.
- [43:11]
Alyssa
I think we have. We have time for maybe one more before we get to rapid fire. We are heading into spring. I'm gonna ask this sort of seasonal. Seasonal question because as soon as we think of spring, we think it's time to declutter. And also I find when the seasons change, it's kind of a really good time to shift our mindsets. It's kind of like a new beginning. So how. How are you using this change of season to declutter your mental or your physical space? And how can. How can we do that as well? Like, how can you take advantage of a new season to your benefit?
- [43:52]
Sina
Yeah, I think spring has this kind of natural energy to it. You know, we kind of come out of winter and it just feels like we get this energy that we've been lacking in winter. And I just always really like to leverage that. And I think you can do that in many points. Like, you know, I don't. Again, like, I don't think decluttering has to be linear. You know, you might not feel like decluttering and not do it for a little while, and then you have a time where you feel like it and you make a lot of progress. So I think, you know, leaning into the times where there is that natural energy and, you know, just like, I like to open up the windows and just get, like, fresh air in. And it's like, I don't know, things like just like throwing your curtains in the washing machine just stuff that, like, freshens up your space. Then it makes you want to freshen up your space in other ways. You know, it's like clear out all that extra stuff and, like, get rid of dusty piles and that kind of thing. Like, so I think just leaning into the natural energy of spring and that kind of feeling of the quote unquote, spring cleaning is really helpful. And then, you know, with the sun coming in more and all of that, like, it just feels.
- [45:04]
Christina
Oh, my God, it's. I needed it so bad. Both Sarah and I are in Toronto, so we're.
- [45:09]
Sina
We've.
- [45:09]
Christina
We get the Back and forth of the. Oh, it's. It's minus three today, and then tomorrow it's 16.
- [45:19]
Sina
It was so nice yesterday.
- [45:21]
Alyssa
I know.
- [45:21]
Sina
Yeah, it's like windy, gusty, but. Yeah. No, I am, I think, just. Yeah. Really just leaning into the feeling of the season and how it feels so good and that you can make your space feel so good like that, you know, and just get rid of stuff. And I just become more and more ruthless as I go. You know, I. I'm not like, extreme like you said earlier. You know, I have stuff. But, yeah, I just become more and more ruthless. Like, I used to leave my daughter's. Like, if she had stickers and little things around, like, I would leave them for her. And now I'm like, nope, garbage. She's like, where did that go? I'm like, I'm not really sure. Like, I don't know. Did you leave it on the floor? Like, looks garbagey. It's gone. Um, so I think that just having those clear spaces just lean into it, like, it feels so good. And I think that that would just help, like, really motivate you.
- [46:22]
Christina
I like the idea of. Of using the energy because you can feel it, especially in the spring. Like, you. You do feel that boost. So it's. Yeah, it's good to take advantage of it. It's like, it's not always, like, I'm a big fan of the idea of, like, follow the plan and not your mood, especially if you're trying to make a big habit change. But you can also, like, when motivation does strike, then. Yeah. Capitalize on it. I think that's.
- [46:44]
Sina
Yeah, that's a great.
- [46:46]
Christina
Yeah.
- [46:46]
Sina
Yeah. I think, like, in motherhood, I've kind of found, like, that is really helpful just to kind of like, lean into when you have the energy to do stuff a little more. You know, I. I like the same. The structure like, you're talking about as well. It's just like, not making the excuse. It's like still following your plan, but then, like, no knowing reality. Like, okay, yeah, I adjust.
- [47:08]
Christina
You have more variables in the mix than. Yeah. Than me as a single person, you know? Yeah.
- [47:13]
Sina
Like, don't deviate either. It's like, stay on course, but. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
- [47:18]
Christina
Cool. All right. That was awesome. Let's get into some rapid fire questions for our last few.
- [47:23]
Sina
Yeah. Yeah.
- [47:24]
Alyssa
Do you want to start us off, Christina, or shall?
- [47:28]
Christina
Well, speaking of the subject of spring, what are you most looking forward to for the season?
- [47:32]
Sina
Oh, like, being outside more.
- [47:36]
Christina
Yeah.
- [47:36]
Sina
Like, just the other day, we're like, in the laneway, playing with neighbors for, like, three hours. You know, it's just being outside. Fresh air, sunlight, just being able to move more.
- [47:47]
Christina
Yeah, same.
- [47:48]
Alyssa
What's your best playlist for a decluttering session?
- [47:51]
Christina
Ooh, I like that one.
- [47:53]
Sina
Yeah, I. I like that one too. Um, you know what? My daughter and I have been, like, really into Benson Boone right now. I know he's just, like, all over the place, but I feel like he put out this single and we're just, like, listening to it non stop. And so it's, like, super energizing. But I also am really into the Greatest Showman soundtrack as well.
- [48:14]
Christina
Oh, my God, that's awesome.
- [48:15]
Alyssa
It's very uplifting.
- [48:17]
Sina
I just want, like, big energy.
- [48:19]
Alyssa
Big energy.
- [48:20]
Sina
Yeah.
- [48:21]
Christina
Alyssa's a theater kid, so I'm sure she can relate.
- [48:25]
Alyssa
Love it. A good one. Best playlist for a calming evening routine.
- [48:34]
Sina
Yeah, so I like James Bay a lot. And then, like, I have a couple, like, like, specific songs that actually, because I have sort of a calming playlist for my daughter. I love a holocene by Bon Iver. We. We listen to that, like, all the time. It's a really long song. And I really like Surrender by Birdie. Those two songs are like repeat repe. But sometimes I also just put on, like, meditation music. Like, I'll just play, like, a meditation album and just have that going.
- [49:08]
Alyssa
Sneakers or flats?
- [49:10]
Sina
Oh, sneakers. Okay. But yeah, yeah, all sneaker comfort. Flats, but sneakers.
- [49:19]
Alyssa
Yes, totally. What is one thing that you do weekly that helps keep your space clean?
- [49:26]
Sina
Like, what I was saying earlier, I just, like, tidy up as I go. Um, that's, like, my biggest life hack. It's like, just putting things away. It's simple, but it's honestly, like, the best way to keep things clean and tidy.
- [49:38]
Alyssa
Favorite guilty pleasure.
- [49:39]
Sina
This one was kind of hard, but I think losing my mom this year and some other, like, just. It's been lots of personal challenges this year. I've really, like, slunk back into reading a lot of, like, good modern romance novels.
- [49:57]
Christina
I feel like romance novels are back. People are like, they're. I'm just seeing them, like, on. Just popping up everywhere. Everyone's reading a romance level right now.
- [50:06]
Sina
Well, it's funny because I saw it post, like, one of them, like, posted on somebody's Instagram stories, and I was like, oh, and. And it was like, kind of a spicy romance. I was like, I didn't know, but, like, I wasn't expecting it from this woman either.
- [50:21]
Christina
I was like, oh, what are you reading?
- [50:24]
Sina
Right Now, I don't know which one it is right now. I just got it at the library, but it was the one that she shared. It's called the Love Light Farm series and it's.
- [50:34]
Christina
See. Okay.
- [50:36]
Sina
But I also feel like this doesn't constitute a guilty pleasure, but I've also been like spending money on greens powder so that I'm drinking it every day. And that also is like just changing my life right now.
- [50:48]
Christina
Oh, nice.
- [50:49]
Sina
Yeah.
- [50:49]
Alyssa
Love greens. Last question.
- [50:51]
Sina
Easy.
- [50:52]
Alyssa
Where can our community find you?
- [50:54]
Sina
Yeah, so I also have a podcast. If so, if your listeners are podcast listeners, you can find my podcast list, which is called the simple and Intentional podcast. And you can find me on Instagram at Simple Intentional and my website. Those are probably the most. I'm most active on Instagram.
- [51:12]
Alyssa
Very cool.
- [51:13]
Christina
Thank you, Sarah.
- [51:14]
Alyssa
Thank you so much.
- [51:14]
Christina
This was such a great conversation. Yeah, thank you.
- [51:16]
Sina
So nice. Thank you so much for joining in our conversation this week. If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple and leave us a rating and review. It's one of the best ways to support the Sustain this podcast at zero cost to you.
- [51:34]
Christina
We're also a community led podcast, so if you have any questions for us, topic requests, or even guests you want to hear from, please send us a DM on Instagram @ Sustain this Underscore podcast. We read all of our comments and look forward to hearing from you.
- [51:47]
Alyssa
We hope you join us again next Tuesday where we'll talk about so much more than clothes.
- [51:52]
Sina
Ciao.