← Sustain This!
Sustain This!
How one brand is changing what it means to be sustainable (ft Izzie Kalaja & Frankie4 Shoes)
00:57:23
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- [00:00]
Alyssa
Welcome to Sustain this, a podcast where we discuss mindful consumption, personal style, and the quest for living a more intentional life. I'm Alyssa, a sustainable stylist.
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Christina
And I'm Christina, a shopaholic turned minimalist. Ish.
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Sina
And I'm Sina, a color consultant and slow fashion style coach.
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Alyssa
Together we will unpack the nuances of what it really means to be a conscious consumer and find more joy in what we have right now. So grab your tea, your coffee, or whatever floats your boat and join us in the conversation. Let's go.
- [00:29]
Sina
Yay.
- [00:30]
Alyssa
Yay. Is there such a thing as a completely sustainable brand? And can fashion ever actually be sustainable? What's a brand's responsibility for communicating their environmental and social footprints to us, their customers, or we should say their potential customers? Today we're talking to Izzy Collaja, the director of Operations and ESG, which stands for Environment, Social and Governments at Franke4, a female founded footwear brand changing the way women experience shoes. Her team oversees planning, buying U.S. operations and Frankie4's responsibility agenda. Regarding their newest B Corp certification. We talk about what it means for a brand to get their B Corp certification. So if this is something you have questions around, this is a great episode to listen to. But we also talk about how can brands communicate and operate responsibly. And of course we talk about shoes and how it actually is possible to find something that is both stylish and comfortable. I swear it exists. Let's get into it. Izzy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.
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Sina
Thank you so, so much for having me. I'm super excited.
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Alyssa
Yeah, we're happy to have you. It's early for you.
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Sina
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's 6:00am in Seattle. But you know, we Australians love an early morning, so if anything, this is on brand.
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Alyssa
Oh, I didn' this, I didn't know that Australia is like an early morning.
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Sina
Yeah, you will see, particularly I'd say in Brisbane and Sydney, Melbourne as well. I'm sure coffee shops open at 5. Like everyone's up and out there.
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Christina
Yeah, I love that.
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Sina
It's really fun.
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Alyssa
I love that too. I mean, you know what, it's so funny. Whenever I'm somewhere in the coffee shop opens at like 9, 10 o' clock. That always feels a bit late to me because it's like, yes, day's already happened.
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Sina
So it's like post, post coffee window for me. I'm like, I'm done.
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Alyssa
Okay, well we're going to jump right into it. For those of us who aren't familiar with Frankie 4. For people listening, you're coming at us from a very cool shoe brand, Frankie 4. So tell us a little bit, if you could, about the brand and your role within it. Give us an overview.
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Sina
Absolutely. It's such a cool company. So Frankie four, ultimately, the aim of this brand is to change the way that women experience shoes. So it was created by two podiatrists, Alan and Caroline, husband and wife, and they had multiple podiatry clinics in Brisbane. And Caroline would see many, many women for different conditions day to day, within her schedule. And so a lot of women might develop, like, plantar fasciitis, particularly around pregnancy, or not around pregnancy. If anyone's experienced it, it's super uncomfortable, super painful, and there's ultimately not a lot that. That you can do about it. And so she would have these patients presenting that maybe didn't necessarily need, like, a 3D printed orthotic or surgical intervention, but needed something more than, like, a 20 or $30 pair of shoes from Target that they were kind of absolutely beating into the pavement day in and day out. And so their philosophy was always kind of from the ground up when they were treating patients. And it was one of the first questions they asked, like, what. What shoes are you wearing and what do you do each day? And so I started to see this gap for particularly women who were coming in and presenting with these symptoms. We had more traditional comfort brands at the time that you might refer them to, and they would say, you know, like, Caroline, like, would you be wearing these to work? And so it kind of sparked this. This thought around. I think we can do comfort better and being able to impact the lives of many, many more women than just who she was able to see kind of like nine to five at the clinic. And so they started to prototype and test shoes in clinic, which is really cool on themselves, and then also with patients. And then it got to a point where they were starting to sell more and more of these shoes, and it was almost cannibalizing the business. In a sense, women weren't experiencing pain anymore. Like, they didn't necessarily have to come back in. And so it reached a tipping point where Caroline thought, I can help so many more women if I take this and try to make this big. And so that was really the start of Frankie 4. We call ourselves a contemporary comfort footwear brand. And it's really about having something on your feet day in, day out that makes you feel good, but also feel good from a wellness perspective and supports lower limb alignment and is also Customizable to a sense as well. So we have two key things that come with the shoes. So for our sneaker styles, as an example, which are our biggest category and for good reason, they come with what's called the Sole Hero footbed, which is a patented piece that provides all of the technology in the shoe. Those added layers of comfort, differential cushioning zones that enable you to go from kind of day to night. The way I like to describe it is if you can recall the feeling of coming in from like a day at work kicking off your shoes and it's like that feeling of like taking off your shoes and kind of feeling your toes like squish into the, the carpet when you take off. Frankie Ford, you don't have that feeling because you were comfortable the whole time. And so that's what the Sole Hero for bed does. But then within that, you're able to customize the fit across a lot of our shoes. So you can have that full length Sole Hero footbed. If you have a wider fit, if you maybe have some bunions at the front of the foot, you can swap that out for a half length Sole Hero footbed to give you some more room in the front, but not necessarily compromise on the comfort. And then if you need a narrower fit, there's an additional four foot cushion that you can kind of like stick and peel underneath the full length Sole Hero footbed to kind of close you in a little bit more and make you feel more supported. So there's a few different elements there so that you're able to get a customized fit, but also the most comfortable kind of fit that you can, whilst also having a broad range of styles and categories available. So people feel like, you know, it's being integrated into their wardrobe in a way that suits them.
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Alyssa
It's very cool. Especially because you're describing all of these things like the customizable footbed and how it's so comfortable and helps lower limb alignment. And I'm, you know, immediately my mind goes to a very specific kind of aesthetic that is not beautiful.
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Christina
But yes, the shoes are super cute. A cute good. Yeah, a cute, but comfortable and yeah, definitely. Right.
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Alyssa
But these are, these are super cute shoes.
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Christina
Right?
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Alyssa
Really great sneakers. And can you tell us a bit more like about the project range? Like it's not just sneakers, right?
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Sina
We, we kind of run the full gamut at this point. We've got slides sandals, we have beach slides now, which is really fun. They're waterproof, like leather upper. So they're really chic, kind of like beach to bar situation. We have heels which just take that comfort kind of to that next level. What else do we have? We have dress flats. Like, we have ballets. We have loafers. We have boots as well, which from a North America perspective, get a lot of love, which is exciting to see. Climate's a little bit warmer in Australia these days, so we. We run kind of all of the categories, which is really exciting. And we have actually two different footbeds. I would be remiss not to call out the second. We have, in addition to the soul hero last year, last year, possibly the end of the year before, we brought out something called the Lux Light footbed. And so it was kind of a more slimline version of the solehero footbed that allowed us to get that really kind of limb line profile on a summer slide, as an example, or on a heel, but still deliver significantly more comfort and kind of that functional benefit beyond a traditional shoe on the market. But I think, to touch on your point from before, Alyssa, on, like, why is it so hard to find, like, cool shoes that are actually comfortable? That's absolutely where this started. And I think as a female founded brand, and, you know, it's Caroline's like one. One true love, aside from Alan. Sorry, Alan. It's that. That was the goal. Like, why are women settling for these uncomfortable shoes? Like, why are we buying? These things actually put us through pain. They may look cute for. For a time, and, you know, for some instances, that's totally fine. Or maybe if you're younger, like, that's totally fine. But there has to be another option. There has to be another way.
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Alyssa
I'm curious. When Frankie Force started, was being a responsible brand always at the top of mind, or did that kind of slowly develop as the brand grew?
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Sina
Yeah, so it was really key to our founders when they started from a personal perspective. And then it's been something that's kind of ballooned over time, which is really exciting. So we became a certified B Corp last year, which was a really great moment for the brand. And I only came on in 2021. And I initially started in our marketing team, and then as we explored kind of the idea of B Corp certification, I'd done some research more on the fashion and sustainability front and had done some work around emissions in my prior life as a consultant. And so I pivoted into a dedicated sustainability role as we went through that B Corp certification. And I think at that point there was kind of a shift in the mentality from, how can we make this product more responsibly to how can we run this business more responsibly? And I think those are two really important things to consider. That there's the product element, which is so key because you can make so many kind of smaller improvements that ultimately scale to a lot of breadth at the end of the day. So whether that's packaging, like making that from recycled materials that are also curbside recyclable to the actual materials in something, whether it's recycled, upcycled, or, or made in a more responsible or regenerative even way, there's all of those kind of elements from a product perspective. But then in terms of the actual business sustainability, at least how we internalize it and how I internalize it personally, it's not just the environment and the product perspective. There's the broader kind of business emissions that come with all of that upstream transportation throughout the supply chain, let alone the downstream transportation then out to customers, warehousing offices, all of those kinds of things. But then it's also really important that we talk about the social dimension of sustainability as well and that kind of all encompassing view of kind of care for people and planet. And so there were pieces that the founders had always been really passionate about. One of them was that we started sell socks and all of the profits from the socks go towards particular charities in our different operating regions. But when we think about social, it's also workers in the supply chain that are creating, creating these awesome products. And then also from an internal people and culture perspective, we start to talk about diversity, inclusion, things like maternity leave, paternity leave, like all of these different pieces that also fall, fall under sustainability. And I think that's, that's really key. It's both of those things, not just the environmental factors.
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Alyssa
Can you tell us a little bit? You talked about you were a consultant and you were doing some research sort of outside of your current position. Can you tell us a little bit about your career and how you transitioned and how you came to be the Director of Operations and environment, Social and Governments at Frankie for? Because these are like new roles, I think, right, that are coming up.
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Sina
Yeah, absolutely. Wasn't a traditional path. I'm unsure if there is a traditional path, to be honest. I think, yeah, it evolves kind of year to year. But for me, I started my career in consulting at one of the big four. And I was really grateful to work on a variety of different clients, different projects. I had wonderful mentors there and there were a few projects that really kind of kick started my thinking in this Space one was actually narrative around a piece of federal energy efficiency policy that I got to work with a team called Access Economics on which are really cool and they do really awesome work like valuing the Great Barrier Reef as an example. And then I did some kind of mandatory state based emissions reporting which isn't necessarily the, the sexiest of things, but the project itself was really cool. It was about how do we take that mandatory reporting and make it accessible and actionable for the day to day community of this state, which was really fun. And so that started to kind of get my brain ticking. And then at the same time I'd always been really passionate and drawn to consumer brands and definitely kind of story led and purpose led brands. And there was actually an influencer that I was following at the time. I don't know if you've heard of her, she's in the uk, Grace Beverly. And she runs a few. Yeah, she runs a few businesses. She's an Oxford grad and I was watching her build this startup called Toller. It's like a more responsible activewear brand. And I was really interested in the, I guess, discourse around them trying to, trying to build this business and gain this legitimacy as essentially a startup, but also undergoing all of those typical startup teasing problems of like this batch of leggings, like I got a hole in mine or like customer service took too long to reply to me, like all of these teething issues whilst at the same time trying to add that layer of sustainability and kind of be true to that because that was part of that purpose, part of why she created the brand. And I found that really interesting. And so I started to talk to some of my undergrad professors about it, this piece around kind of legitimacy and trust and what they were sharing online. And we ended up turning it into a baby thesis. Like a baby PhD is kind of how I like to describe it as. And that was one of the things that led me to Franke. But it was a really interesting piece that I was able to do kind of in addition to my, my full time work. And so I was looking at specifically at the time, how different types of activewear brands in this case study communicated about sustainability amongst all of their other commercial priorities. I think we talk a lot about like the attitude, behavior gap when it comes to purchasing and decision making on the consumer side. There's a lot from a supply chain, like backstage perspective in the literature. But I was more interested in how sustainability either benefits or kind of inhibits some of these brands and their communications and all of These other things that they're also trying to talk about, and at the end of the day, they're trying to make sales. And so was really cool. And there were some pieces that came out of it that I think in practice we knew and had definitely been spoken about in the literature. But it was just through a slightly different lens around. If you want to talk about sustainability as a brand, you need to do it with a level of specificity, and you need to do it consistently as well for that to be that sense of legitimacy and to have those access points where you put up an Instagram post that somebody can click through to an annual report or something on your website that has that detail if they really, really want to deep dive on what that actually means. And so that piece of work was one of the things that led me to Franke 4, which is really cool. And so I started in the marketing team, initially looking at content, but we wanted to amplify more of that storytelling around the responsible practices that we were already engaging in. And then a few months in, our founders came to us and said, hey, we're hearing about this B Corp thing. Like, let's explore that. And so at that point, I was able to make that pivot internally to a dedicated kind of sustainability, responsibility, whatever we want to call it, role. And then my purview has expanded from there. So my team actually looks after supply and demand planning, buying us operations and responsibility.
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Alyssa
That's a lot.
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Sina
It's a lot. But it's so interesting because we, I think one of the things we talk about in the broader kind of fashion industry, and it very much links into that fast fashion piece, which is not kind of where we play. We sit more in this, like, fashion wellness kind of intersection of sorts. But we talk a lot about emissions and overproduction. And so, yes, there's a lot of things we can be doing and have to be doing better in business and in our supply chains. But if overproduction is the thing that's killing us, this resource burden that the planet is taking on and that people are taking on, I think the supply and demand planning piece gets really interesting. It's like, well, the better that we can do that, the less wastage, the less overproduction that we have, and the fewer emissions are just kind of wasted into the either. And so I think there's an interesting kind of link there. But also on the operation side, you get to see firsthand the opportunities for decarbonization and how you could be doing things differently. And I think that's why so many sustainability professionals? Some of them absolutely have really solid, rigorous environmental sciences backgrounds, and we desperately need those people and need to be listening to those people and bringing them in and paying them for their work. But I think so many people find these alternate pathways because you need to have another skill set. Like, you need to be able to draw from these different frames of reference, because sustainability spends the whole company at the end of the day, not just one little fraction of it. And so you need to be able to talk to different teams, talk to different leaders, and be able to understand within their functions, like, what are the changes that we can be making here to support a bigger vision.
- [21:17]
Christina
At the end of the day, can you talk about what some of the things that Frankie4 is doing for that sustainability? Because I think, you know, I think coming at it from either like a consumer perspective or as a buyer just even wanting to research the brand and being like, is this right for me? Are they doing what I need to see in order to, like, feel like it aligns as like a. A more, I guess, green and conscious, More conscious brand? Like, what are some of the things that you guys are doing to make it easier for the consumer to. To see? Like, oh, this is a brand that could align with. With what I'm looking for?
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Sina
Yeah, totally. I. I think the B Corp certification was a really helpful one in the sense that when you become a B Corp, there's almost a bit of a stamp of legitimacy. It's like a shortcut for the consumer. I know personally, I try to shop from fellow B Corps where I can, and so there's a piece there. But in terms of the actual actions and activities across those different areas, we have so much going on at any given point in time. So there's kind of the product piece, which was absolutely already in play before I came on. @ Frankie 4. We have an incredible product design team, and they really spearheaded this piece. So all of the packaging is made from recycled materials and is curbside recyclable, and we have a store footprint. So actually I don't have a box around me, which is crazy, but we have little shoelace handles. And so you don't walk out with a bag, you just walk out with the shoebox, which is really fun. So you take out the handles, and then the rest of the packaging is curbside recyclable. And then there's elements of the shoes themselves. So we use rpep. So recycled pet post consumer waste plastic bottles that gets turned into material from a, like, textile and more traditional Fashion perspective, there's a lot of nuance that comes with using RPET and microplastics and all of those horrible, horrible things. But we use it in the lining of our shoes. So like boots, sneakers. And because you're not washing your shoes necessarily, or your leather sneakers or your boots, it's a more kind of durable way for us to be able to use that and use a recycled material, but for it to not have some of those, you know, unintended additional consequences that we might see in different applications. We have some recycled cotton laces throughout the range. And then from a leather standpoint, we are a member of the Leather Working Group, which is a global nonprofit, I'm pretty certain. And they essentially have these frameworks and series of standards for the leather tanneries, which is really interesting. And so I want to say 95%, if not slightly higher at this point of our levers come from gold rated tanneries. So they have different requirements around energy usage, water conservation, water waste, chemical management and waste management that these tanneries are held to. And then the leathers themselves ultimately come from the agricultural sectors byproducts. So that's not like cows in a field for the sake of having cows in a field, as awful as that is to say. And that is the reality of leather. And it's a great material. And so that's part of the nuance of the industry too. But there's that product piece and like how can we specifically make the product in a more responsible way? And of course that comes through to supply chain. So we have a very small, intimate base of suppliers that we absolutely adore. And for us it's significantly more than a transactional partnership. Our first supplier, Caroline and Ellen, have gone over and visited many, many times in their lives and it's been a 10 plus year relationship with that factory in those workers. And so there's also a piece around social auditing, making sure those workers are being paid a fair wage and have respectful, ethical working environments. There's that piece of play as well. There's also freight elements. So we have a policy around prioritizing sea freight, which can be really hard sometimes when you're a wholesale business and trying to deliver things on time in addition to to selling directly. And so we predominantly use sea freight for whether that's going to kind of apac, that region or to North America. And that is a really key one on the emissions standpoint. And the emissions we have measured for the past three years annually in accordance with the GHG protocol. So that's A really important piece there. And we're building a decarbonization plan off the back of that. So there's kind of a pick and mix of some of our environmental pieces. And then on the social side, we of course have that supply chain intersection between the two. We also have a volunteer day for all of our staff and we try and get outdoors. We're going to University of Washington to one of their farms to volunteer here in Seattle. But there's a number of other causes that we contribute towards. There's the donations from the stocks, there's parental leave options. There's so much that goes into the social side as well. And then you can start to cross over into governance and that kind of the G of the esg, which is ultimately, at the end of the day, it's a framework that came out of investment banking. And so it's more of a lens where sustainability is broad and kind of all encompassing. And how does our business impact the world? ESG takes more of a how does the world impact our business approach. And so for us, we kind of use the terms interchangeably. They're not technically the same. And anyone in academia is probably like staring at me with red hot daggers right now. But the governance piece is important because that speaks to these high level kind of ethics, transparency, how does your business run? And if you're serious about sustainability, then all of that needs to be connected. And so for us, that looks like formalizing a supplier code of conduct, formalizing our own internal code of ethics and making sure those nest and that they reference all of these really key frameworks and the standards, like ilo, like the un and so there's a bunch of different activities that sit under kind of each of those three buckets for us. And the, the goal is that we're measuring those and managing those each year, but then also thinking forward to what else can we be doing? How, how can we build on this further?
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Alyssa
Wow, great answer.
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Christina
Yeah, it's very, it sounds like very, it's very complex. Like it's, you know, it definitely goes deep. Does that, like, how difficult does that make it as a brand? Because we often, we've had episodes and we've even had other founders in the past come on. And you know, there's a lot of discourse online about how like the sustainable brand or the, the brands that value those practices and their supply chain, like ultimately affects their bottom line and it just makes it harder for these types of brands to survive. So how do you kind of balance that, that trade off? I guess?
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Sina
Yeah, it's really tricky. And I think for brands that in my research I called them sustainably aware, like they may not have had kind of the intentions to be responsible when they started. And we could be talking about brands that are much older but want to do better. It's like making that transition can be really difficult. And then trying to shift that kind of frame of reference within the business and within your culture, that's a monumental task. And so there's kind of these commercial and responsibility imperatives that are always kind of sitting at this state of tension. And then you throw in design as well. And all that comes with the fashion industry and the history lab. And so it can be really tricky, for sure. I think ultimately it's so embedded for us and so embedded in our cost structure. And you want to be looking for opportunities that ultimately balance the three. So sea freight is a really great example. It's significantly more cost effective than air freight. So you're saving a lot of dollars there, but you're also saving a lot of emissions for mentoring the atmosphere. When you're looking at sea versus air, obviously there's still many emissions associated with that practice, but significantly less on average than if you were putting product on planes kind of day in, day out. And so there are trade offs that will need to be made. Absolutely. But there are also instances where you can get that kind of value, unlock it in multiple areas, and that's where it gets really meaty and really interesting. And where your CFO is like, you're doing great work. But that's important because that's the commercial reality at the end. End of the day, if, if you're not able to be a VI viable business, then we can't talk about the sustainability of that brand. It simply won't exist. And so it's about kind of those day to day decisions, like how could we be doing this better? And at some points that will require capital investment. At some points that means, you know, adding an extra 30 cents onto the cost of goods, whatever it may be. And so it's up to each business to evaluate does that feel right for us and is that commercially viable for us? I think there was a lot of discourse earlier this year, starting last year, around how much does the customer care about sustainability and how much should we be communicating to them. And with all of these new greenwashing or updated greenwashing regulations coming in in different regions, we saw a lot of brands kind of pull back and a lot of fear around that, and that's really tricky as well. I think the piece around like how much more is the customer willing to pay? I think we've moved on from that honestly. Or at least that's what I'm seeing a lot of people talking about. And it's more how do we use sustainability as a means to future proof this business and build in supply chain resilience and meet our mandatory reporting requirements. There's only so much that it can do from that customer kind of top line perspective. And it's really easy for me to sit here and say, and probably naive of me to say, but at the end of the day like are you doing the right thing as a business? That, that's, that's a different question. And if you've been operating in a traditional fashion landscape then well, a lot of brands are making decisions that don't serve people on planet and they may not ever make decisions that greater serve people and planet until we have more kind of regulatory reform.
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Alyssa
Can you say speak a little bit more to the point where like about how Frankie4 has always been sort of trying to be a responsible brand and why you're choosing to frame it as responsible and not so much the sustainability and staying away from, from the greenwashing piece.
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Sina
Definitely for us we're very much kind of taking, following other market signals here and different players that they're not necessarily competitors but someone like Garni as an example. I use this frame of reference as well. They talk about responsibility rather than sustainability. I believe Tala does as well and many, many other brands. And for us and how we've internalized it and the definitions of these terms. The fashion industry itself is not sustainable unless you're giving back more to people on the planet than you than you're taking. It's not regenerative, it's not even kind of net neutral. It's always going to be extractive. And that in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. I do want to call that out. However, we've reached a scale and a volume of stuff that is simply more stuff than any of us could ever have or need or use in our day to day lives. And so for us we made a decision at a point in time, it was during our B Corp certification to move away from sustainability as our kind of go to language and talk more about responsibility or our responsible practices. Those decisions that we're able to make day to day but then make consistently over time that are hopefully a reflection of us wanting to do business better. And that definitely doesn't mean perfect and it's not objective there's no kind of one way to win sustainability, but it's being able to make those incremental changes that help us be a more responsible version of Frankie for, of a shoe brand, of a contemporary comfort footwear label, whatever you want to call it.
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Christina
Yeah.
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Sina
And so that's kind of where it came to for us, I think Garnier a great example in terms of the language that they use. And there's many other brands that are kind of taking that, that stance. I think there's a piece there around consumer literacy and needing to educate the customer around what it, what it means. And there's kind of what it means on the macro and then what it means for your business. And it's just having those definitions as a brand kind of clear, I think.
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Christina
Is really key because I guess maybe like sustainability potentially was never like the right word to begin with. So now it's almost like. Do you find it's almost about reversing code course? Because I feel like now it's almost hard to like backpedal from that, that terminology or like green, sustainable, ethical, whatever. And there's a lot of assumptions or like a lot of things that I guess back in the day maybe companies tried to do. And now with more regulations coming in and being more transparent. Yeah, I guess re education or like education around the terminology and like, what terminology I guess is more appropriate to use. Do you find that a challenge to sort of like teach the customer, you know, what should you really be looking for?
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Sina
Definitely. It's such a challenge. And I think you're trying to go out there with these little sound bites and make sustainability sound sexy or responsibility sound sexy. But ultimately it needs that detail and that layer of specificity to be credible. And we now have these renewed greenwashing guidelines in Australia in different states of the US that are really cracking down it and setting some excellent precedent with different companies around what that language should look like. And they call it sustainability, which is all well and good. They have amazing annual reporting. Same with Everlane. It's so detailed so that if a customer or a follower is seeing a sound bite, you know, that kind of witty like one liner on an Instagram post or in an email, they're able to find that detail if that's what they're seeking, if they're wanting to find more. And so that education piece is hard because we're all trying to vie for everyone's attention at the end of the day. And it comes back to, you know, those other priorities. You're also trying to talk about product and like trend and things that look really cool in addition to these responsible practices and why the business operates in a way that it doesn't peel back the hood a little bit or give people a view of the backstage. And I think tone of voice, how you convey your brand really makes, makes an impact on how you want to talk about responsibility or sustainability. And there are examples that are more founder led like Tyler and Grace, where she has a huge personal platform and so she's able to kind of speak to some of the behind the scenes and there's a different kind of layer there or people that are documenting as they're building. You're kind of seeing them make these decisions in real time, which is really interesting. And then you have these more established brands like even a Patagonia, Cotopaxi, a Reformation and Evelyn, where they don't necessarily have that layout like that they're big businesses. And so it's. How do we kind of maintain that brand image and that brand tone of voice, but also communicate about these things in a way that's accessible and actionable for the customer. There's so much jargon to your point.
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Christina
That comes and like authentic too.
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Sina
Sustainability. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. It can be so tricky and, and there's no kind of one perfect way to, to do it, but yet like unpacking some of that language and those definitions, it can be really hard. But it's also really important because at the end of the day it, it is rooted in science, it comes back to science. And so there's a, a level of factuality that, that needs to be conveyed in those communications too.
- [40:03]
Christina
It's so almost like overwhelmingly complex to start thinking about all these things and then thinking about it from the brand perspective as well as being on the consumer, customer side of it too. It's always really interesting to me how nuanced everything is and how complex it is.
- [40:18]
Sina
Yeah, there's a lot that goes on and I think it's. Yeah. Every day, every decision, could we do this better? Could we do this differently? Yeah, that's what it, what it comes back to. Which if you have that culture and it's ingrained, then it's just, it's something that you do without kind of thinking and getting to that point is really, really awesome.
- [40:42]
Alyssa
I think it's also, it's interesting that you talked about how it's about making those daily decisions to be responsible because ultimately I think the wording and communication and customer education is important. But what I'm hearing is ensuring that there's transparency so that the customer can actually go in and make sure that the actions are being taken.
- [41:05]
Christina
Yeah, because I, like, they can feel confident about, like, what. What they're buying, you know.
- [41:09]
Sina
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [41:11]
Alyssa
Because you can say one thing, but if to ultimately, it's about what the brand is actually doing.
- [41:17]
Sina
So definitely we. We have tried to be careful. And this is where the greenwashing piece comes into. Around talking about things that have actually happened, about talking that we've actually done versus what we're planning to do. And there's a real challenge and tension point in that also, because you want to share what's coming or what you're working on. But sometimes timelines get delayed, things don't work out, or things take a different turn. And so being able to be transparent but also professional in how you're communicating, that can be really challenging. And so I think that's where the specificity comes in. And it's a question of how much. How much can you share? It can be really hard.
- [42:08]
Alyssa
The challenge is real from consumers, even from our end, it's a challenge too, as we said. So before. We head to rapid fire questions. I selfishly have a footwear question. How. I'm really sorry.
- [42:27]
Christina
I didn't realize how long the time went by so fast. Sorry, I'm like, oh, yeah, I know, I know.
- [42:33]
Alyssa
Because it was so. There was so much good information that you packed in. I don't know, Christine.
- [42:39]
Christina
No, no, no. Go for it, Go for it. I want to have. I know the selfish footwear question. Calm down.
- [42:47]
Alyssa
I just. Because I know how difficult footwear is to recycle. You know, like, it's one of the things that last the longest when it's sent to landfill, obviously, because it's got so many different components. The grommets, the plastic, the material. How long should a quality shoe last?
- [43:09]
Sina
Yeah, it's a really good question. And the piece around components is such a fascinating one. I think that's where textile. They don't have it easy. They definitely don't have it easy, but it's just a different ball game. Like, we're talking about something. Something that you drape over yourself versus these things you put on your feet. They act like if they're good, they act like tiny little machines. Trying to. To recycle that versus the other can be really tricky from a Frankie 4 perspective because we have that soul hero footbed, that layer of comfort for us. We have an audience of professionals that are wearing these shoes, in particular the sneakers, day in, day out. So think like nurses, healthcare professionals, teachers as well. We have the most beautiful community of teachers in Australia in particular that wear the shoes and they are on hard surfaces, on their feet, standing for almost the entirety of their time at work. And so for those people, if they're wearing their shoes every single day, it's actually a bit of a mental reframe. You have to think about it like a pair of running shoes. If you're like a marathoner, you're racing, you're putting kilometers on those things, you're putting steps in. We actually encourage those groups to be replacing them more often if they want those benefits around lower limb alignment, that comfort alleviation. Shoes do wear down over time. And even though the outside of the shoe may last for a really long time before it cracks or splinters or, you know, gets really dirty, it's what's inside that's making that difference from a well being perspective, at least when we, when we talk about us. And so there's a layer of nuance there from the well being perspective, if that's what, what you're wanting out of those shoes and you're wanting that extra layer of comfort if you're like exclusively wearing them. And podiatrists will always. Well, I shouldn't say always, I'm not a podiatrist, I'm not a doctor, but that, that kind of feeling similar to running shoes of like if you're able to have multiple pairs, if you're a marathon, a distance runner, switching out kind of between a couple pairs can be supportive for your feet and your legs. There's a mentality there that can be applied to Frankies as well. But I think that there's no kind of like perfect amount of years or that we should be trying to get out of our shoes. However, if they are made with great quality leather, your. I don't want to say recycling in the sense of actually recycling, but in the sense that you're wearing different pairs kind of throughout the week, then you can expect a level of durability that for sure. But on the recycling front, we have in our stores in Australia and we have a store here in Seattle, you can come in and recycle your shoes with us. So when you're done with them, they can be any brand, they don't have to be Frankie 4. So we'll take like your pair of runners or your pair of flip flops. We'll take them and we work with a partner in Australia called Tread Lightweight. They're only Australian based at the moment. But they're just so, so exceptional. And, and it's actually a collaboration between asga, which is like our peak body industry body for sporting goods, and a recycling company. And they will sort through all of the shoes, they recycle all of the shoes and then they turn it into a bunch of different products. The main one being flooring, whether that's for shopping centers or squishy flooring for like playgrounds and gyms. So it's a really cool kind of down cycled output from all of the shoes and it's an amazing service that they provide. So we encourage customers to bring their shoes in so that we can send them on to tread lightly. There's so many pairs of shoes I think that go kind of unused or unworn in people's closets and so you can also tie it back to that kind of cost per wear piece, investing in something that, that you're going to love but you're going to reach for it more if it's comfortable at the end of the day. So.
- [47:33]
Christina
Yeah. Cool.
- [47:34]
Sina
A few factors at play.
- [47:36]
Christina
Yeah, that's a. Yeah, definitely. I feel like we always want like a kind of like a one line answer, but it really never.
- [47:42]
Sina
Totally.
- [47:43]
Christina
Totally.
- [47:44]
Alyssa
It's so general too. You're right. Like it's like if it's a shoe that you're wearing once a week or once a month, it's a completely different answer than.
- [47:52]
Christina
Yeah.
- [47:52]
Alyssa
Ones that you're wearing every day. Yeah. Long time. I'm just going to say that.
- [47:57]
Christina
Yeah.
- [48:00]
Alyssa
Okay, we have to finish off some rapid fire questions. Christina, did you want to do or do you want me to jump in?
- [48:07]
Christina
Oh, go ahead, go ahead.
- [48:08]
Alyssa
Okay.
- [48:09]
Christina
Yeah.
- [48:10]
Alyssa
Okay, so we've just got a couple. What is your favorite shoe?
- [48:15]
Sina
Right now I'm actually wearing it. I'm going to be really disgusting.
- [48:18]
Christina
Oh, we're doing like a high kick.
- [48:19]
Sina
Okay. Like a reveal. No, I went to a high kick. We recently came out, they're available at our global site. I think they're actually yet to launch in the U.S. they're coming soon. So maybe a sneak peek of sorts. This is called Hepburn. This is our first kind of foray in a little while into the Mary Jane kind of territory. Obviously they, they were trending, but I have just really fallen in love with them. I haven't worn a ballet flat anything in that space since I was maybe 13 and so and they're like really weren't part of my like personal style language for a long time. I was just a ride or die sneaker. Girly. And so adding a flat back into my wardrobe has really made me rethink, like, about all of these pieces that I own. And it's been kind of like a styling unlock, having a different kind of silhouette again.
- [49:19]
Alyssa
Totally.
- [49:19]
Christina
Yeah.
- [49:20]
Sina
Love a.
- [49:20]
Christina
Love a ballet flat. Love a metallic. Metallic flat, too.
- [49:24]
Sina
They're fun.
- [49:25]
Christina
It's a good closet, for sure.
- [49:27]
Alyssa
Definitely. I had. Okay. I had. I thought you were in Australia. So I was going to ask what you're going to be wearing most this fall, but what are you going to be wearing most this summer?
- [49:37]
Sina
Oh, that's a good question. I am personally really interested to see how and. Sorry, this isn't a thing but a color. I want to see how red evolves. Like, the past four winters, we've had, like, more of that cherry red. This last one, it really translated into a lot of burgundy tones. And I think from Runway spring, summer, we saw a lot of that bright, like, tomatoey red, which I'm looking very, very pale right now. I probably shouldn't be going anywhere near that, but I'm excited for some color for summer and being able to pair that with. With different things. I have a, like, tomatoey red linen dress that I bought last summer that I'm really, really excited to get some good wear out of. And I just bought. We have a pair of slides called Tate, and they come in this really cool, like, lineny colorway that they're really unique. And so I'm excited to, like, weather is with a bunch. A bunch of red, hopefully.
- [50:41]
Christina
Yeah. And I guess, like, in Seattle or West coast, you really want. You want those pops of color because it's so gray other. Other time. You know, like, color really is a big. I mean, it's just what you're craving. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Totally nice.
- [50:59]
Alyssa
Group sports or solo sports?
- [51:02]
Sina
Oh, wow. I. I wish I was a group sports. So random gully. I really wish I was. I grew up dancing, like, very much a group sport. However, I. I think I have to say solo sports. I'm one of the dreaded half marathoners.
- [51:19]
Alyssa
Oh, my God.
- [51:19]
Sina
Me too.
- [51:20]
Christina
Oh, nice.
- [51:23]
Alyssa
100%. There's too much pressure with team sports. It's too much.
- [51:27]
Sina
There's too much pressure. I. I always say as soon as there are props involved, I'm. I'm woeful. Like, yeah, I can't do it. I'm letting the team down.
- [51:39]
Alyssa
Yeah. Right? Yes.
- [51:41]
Christina
Yeah. I'm the weak link. Like, just leave me. Like, go on without me.
- [51:45]
Sina
Yeah, go on without me being in Seattle tribe. Like, I haven't skied in a very long time, so skied a couple of times, went cross country skiing, and there were multiple times cross country skiing where we would be doing little hills versus a flat course. And I'd be like, go on without me, guys. Like, I'll just be walking down the stall over here. Like, don't mind me week. Totally.
- [52:10]
Alyssa
I get it. Mountain hike or urban city walk?
- [52:17]
Sina
Given I've recently moved to. To Seattle last year, I think I have to say mountain hike.
- [52:23]
Christina
Yeah. Nice.
- [52:24]
Alyssa
That's nice. That's beautiful.
- [52:26]
Sina
Yeah.
- [52:28]
Alyssa
Favorite account to follow.
- [52:31]
Sina
Oh, okay. I want this to come across as genuine, but I've actually followed Christina, like, on multiple different platforms. I want to say the past five years, like, I was literally listening to you on video from yesterday earlier. I'm such a fan and I think it's like, Christina, your account and so many others that kind of have fueled my personal journey from a sustainability perspective, not. Not just a professional perspective. There's another lady that I've been loving following, I think. Oh, I say lady. I think her handle is Lady Diana. May I? I think her name is Diana. She. She is also gorge on TikTok and I swear, like, every single color looks amazing on her. And she's such a color and accessories. I love her.
- [53:32]
Christina
I follow her. Yeah, she's so chic. She's so.
- [53:35]
Sina
She. She has inspired me to try it and get back into a little bit of color. And I think, Christina, it's something that you've spoken a lot about as well. That, you know, accessorizing piece can add so much to the clothes you already have.
- [53:53]
Christina
Oh, thank you. That's awesome. Yeah, definitely. We'll. We'll also leave Diana in the. In the show notes too, because she's so good. Yeah, thank you.
- [54:04]
Alyssa
Favorite platform to engage in.
- [54:06]
Sina
Last question. I'm unsure if I'm going to be interesting on this one because I'm sure everyone's saying the same, but I've been a substack fan as of late.
- [54:16]
Christina
Man, I gotta get on the sub stack here, everyone. I need to like that. I feel like, you know. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I feel like that's. That's just as you say that, because I feel like people are craving more long form, slow, digestible content or like, we're almost a video platform is almost so oversaturated that it's just like, give me a blog again. Let's take it back to like, you know, Tumblr and blog lovin. You know, I think that's. It's interesting how even those sort of trends even shift. So, yes. Tell us about Substack. What substack are you loving?
- [54:50]
Sina
What substacks am I loving? I am a big fan of. There's an incredible woman in this space, Britney Sierra. She runs the Sustainable Fashion Forum and she has. I'm pretty certain she has like an sf like substack and then also a personal substack. One of them I know is called Green Behavior. She posts on both. I'm such a big fan. Very big fan girl. Alex Leach as well, who's the author of one of the books behind me called the World Is on Fire. But we're still buying shoes. He has a great substack. Who else I find following? Diana has one and then a different Diana. Diana Cohen of Crown Affair. I'm enjoying her substack as well.
- [55:34]
Christina
Ah, cool.
- [55:35]
Alyssa
Those are great.
- [55:36]
Christina
All right.
- [55:37]
Sina
But I, I feel like I'm seeing more and more like TikToks and posts where people are posting like, here's five interesting articles I, I read this week and I'm really, I'm a big fan of that. I've always loved a written medium and I love YouTube. Like, I'm a comfort YouTube watcher. I will put on a vlog, like over TV a lot of the time, I'd say. But it's been really nice to prioritize reading from a personal perspective, not just a professional perspective.
- [56:12]
Christina
Yeah, yeah. Getting back to the written word. Okay, cool. Substack. I gotta, gotta get on it.
- [56:20]
Sina
Nice.
- [56:22]
Alyssa
Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Izzy. It's been great to have you.
- [56:25]
Sina
Yes, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, amazing. Thank you. I. I appreciate the opportunity to, to come on and chat to you guys.
- [56:33]
Christina
Thank you.
- [56:34]
Sina
Thank you so much for joining in our conversation this week. If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you subscribe to the Puck podcast on Spotify and Apple and leave us a rating and review. It's one of the best ways to.
- [56:48]
Christina
Support the Sustain this podcast at zero cost to you. We're also a community led podcast, so if you have any questions for us, topic requests, or even guests you want to hear from, please send us a DM on Instagram @ Sustain this Underscore podcast. We read all of our comments and look forward to hearing from you.
- [57:04]
Alyssa
We hope you join us again next Tuesday where we'll talk about so many much more than clothes.
- [57:09]
Sina
Ciao.