← Sustain This!
Sustain This!
Is Digitally Cataloging Your Wardrobe the Key to Better Style? How the Indyx Closet App is Changing The Way We Get Dressed.
01:03:49
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- [00:00]
Alyssa
Welcome to Sustain this, a podcast where we discuss mindful consumption, personal style, and the quest for living a more intentional life. I'm Alyssa, a sustainable stylist.
- [00:10]
Christina
And I'm Christina, a shopaholic turned minimalist.
- [00:12]
Sina
Ish. And I'm Sina, a color consultant and slow fashion style coach.
- [00:16]
Alyssa
Together we will unpack the nuances of what it really means to be a conscious consumer and find more joy in what we have right now. So grab your tea, your coffee, or whatever floats your boat and join us in the conversation. Let's go.
- [00:29]
Sina
Yeah. Hey. Yay.
- [00:31]
Alyssa
If you've ever tried a no buy or a low buy, or even if you are just trying to reduce your fashion consumption, you may have heard about wardrobe apps that can help you shop your closet and get more use out of the clothes you already have. In today's episode, we talk to Devin Rule, one of the co founders of the wildly popular digital wardrobe app Index. We get her thoughts on reframing a no buy so that it's something that you can actually benefit from and how technology can both help and hinder our personal style and slow fashion journeys. This is a really great episode. We get into these details and so much more. I can't wait for you to hear it. Let's get on into it. Okay. Welcome, Devin, to the podcast. Thanks so much for being here.
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Sina
Of course. So happy to do it.
- [01:24]
Christina
So fun.
- [01:25]
Alyssa
It's early for you.
- [01:26]
Sina
It is, it is. Yeah. It is 6am I'm. But, you know, I'm happy to talk about Index and everything about it at any time of day or night.
- [01:34]
Christina
So we love it. We love it. The clueless closet. Yeah. If you can tell us about Index, if someone's never heard of it before and. And maybe why you made it, because it's a very, very cool app. There's lots of closet apps out there and, you know, we've all kind of tried them and maybe adopted them and then never really stuck with it, but I feel like Index is different, so.
- [01:57]
Sina
Yeah.
- [01:58]
Christina
Yeah.
- [01:58]
Sina
Okay. Yeah, great. Happy to. So Index, we call it a. At least right now, a digital styling platform. So it's a place where you can basically upload your closet and do a number of things with that so you can self style so you can see what you have, which, number one, is huge for so many people, just knowing what you have in your closet and being able to access that from anywhere. But you can also style outfits, right? Which I think is a great tool and a great pairing to kind of IRL restyling and again, something that you can do anywhere at any time. You can be sitting on the subway, the bus, the couch, and just be styling outfits and saving those for yourself in the future.
- [02:32]
Christina
I do that on my commute, just by the way. Yeah, it really helps with Toronto transit time.
- [02:38]
Sina
Yes, it's perfect. I also find it as great as just like a alternate to like a doom scroll. If I find myself scrolling elsewhere where I maybe shouldn't be, literally just switch over to the app and start selling outfits. Feels so much better and more productive as well. Right. Just builds that bank of outfits that when you have that I don't know what to wear feel feeling, or I don't have anything to wear feeling that you can draw from. You can also be styled by other people in index. So both Christina and Alyssa, at some point in time and maybe in the future again too are on index as well as others, other expert stylists where you can actually pay a fee to help them or sorry, have them help you kind of recognize those possibilities in your closet as well. And then we. We hope at some point soon perhaps, so I guess a little bit of a sneak peek that you might be able to be styled by other people. So like say your friends on index as well. Um, so all sorts of ways that you can kind of see your closet in different ways and get more use out of that. Of course. Also there's a data component so you know, if you are planning what you wear and tracking what you wear, that also automatically gives you the data about your closet so you can, you know, understand what you are actually wearing and maybe not the cost per wear. All those juicy things that actually help you kind of optimize your closet towards a better place. So that's I guess what index is at this point in time, why we decided to do it, you know, so me and my co founder, Edie, I think both have a. Just a similar background in that we came out of. Out of the fashion industry. So we actually met working at Gap Inc. About, I would say like seven years ago now actually. And we have a similar story in that I think personally, you know, even despite working in fashion, maybe in part because. But I think it's a universal experience of, you know, you still have this closet full of clothes, but you walk into it and feel like you have nothing to wear. Right.
- [04:22]
Christina
Y. I think we all feel that the eternal struggle.
- [04:24]
Sina
Yep. And it's. And it's so frustrating, especially given it's not like we don't spend time, money, energy getting that closet. Right. And so to still Feel that way about it. You know, to us, it was like, there's a bit of a problem. There's a bit of a problem there. And then just from the industry perspective, I think we just saw this need. You know, I think right now in fashion, we're kind of all living on these very separate islands. Right? Every company is kind of doing their own thing in a bit of a way. Right. And also. I'm sure. I'm sure I'll talk about this more later too, but fashion is also so dominated by the business model of selling. We don't even think about it anymore that it's so synonymous that fashion equals, you're gonna sell me something. And so I think we saw just from the industry perspective, kind of this need for almost. We call it like the glue that kind of fits everything together. Right? All, you know, as you. That. And that puts you as the consumer in the middle. Right. I think brands are very kind of brand centric of, like, okay, this is our product. This is what we are selling. There's no one kind of being there for the consumer of like, this is what's actually in my closet. And this is how it connects to the brands I like, and this is how it connects maybe to selling it again secondhand. And this is how it connects to how I actually use it. Right. And so I think we see index as that kind of piece of glue that might hopefully in the future, kind of piece these disparate kind of islands together.
- [05:44]
Alyssa
Can you, like. I know Christina and I both. That was. That was a really great explanation. I actually loved how you. I've never seen it like that before. Like, what a neat perspective of seeing the fashion industry is. Like, the brands are like their own little island. Like, we're all kind of in our own silos in a way.
- [06:00]
Sina
Yeah. Yeah. Operating in blind. Right. I think from the brand perspective, too, you know, we both sat in rooms where product was being developed, and we were often yeeti especially. But I played this role too. At certain points. Kind of we were looked to as kind of like, you know, the. For a consumer insight, right. What should we make? Like, what do people want? And it's like, you don't already. Like, you don't know. Like. Like, you don't know. Like, they really have no. Like, it's. There's no. Like, it's so hard. And. And what's often followed, you know, they kind of fall back on is, okay, well, what are our best sellers? Right? What do people seem to buy? Right? And so, you know, you know, let's say in, you know, if you're working for Athleta, which Ed did, it's like, well, let's. How can we sell yet another pair of black yoga pants, right? More how do you sell another black yoga pant?
- [06:50]
Christina
Right?
- [06:50]
Sina
When really the, when really the question like no one needs another black yoga pants, right? Like what you. Maybe if you need anything, it's all the things that surround that, like, what's the gap that they have? Right. Is maybe the question that should be asking and they just don't. There's no way for them to really know that beyond what they have individually sold you as a brand. Right. There's no visibility into what your actual closet looks like. I think similarly, you know, if you think about how online resale works today, you know, there's kind of two ways it can work. Sorry if it's getting way too in the weeds, but there's no way. Okay, there's kind of two. There's kind of two ways online resale at least can work, right. One is kind of the managed model a la like a thread up or a real real where you send your stuff in and they kind of do all the work of listing for you. The other way is peer to peer, right? So you actually do the work of listing and selling and shipping individually and you're basically selling one to one to someone else out there. Especially in the peer to peer model, let's say, you know, you're still doing that work of digitizing your item, which we ask you as index to do as well, but you're just doing it at kind of the moment where you're least excited about the thing. Right? Which I think is one reason why resale today is kind of broken is like relatively few people are willing to go through that effort to do that. And then on the other hand, it's.
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Christina
A lot of work to do, like for a depop or poshmark and stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's very demotivating. You're like, oh, I'll just donating it instead, you know, like, yeah, exactly.
- [08:19]
Sina
And so what if we moved that work up the stream right to where you're actually most excited about the item, which is typically when you purchase it, right? Is when you're most excited about it. And so I think a lot of, you know, I think a lot of the. I think these are examples of just like, I think how we see players in the fashion industry kind of solving around the issue of like, really what we need is this like digitized record of what people Own. Right. We have. We have digital records of so many other things in our life. That makes our life easier. Like, I think, I don't know, banking comes to mind as a example of, like, used to be totally pen and paper. Now it's completely digitized. Has made things easier for us. I'm sure there are many other examples, but I think wardrobe is one of those places where I think it's just. It's seen as kind of like, almost, at least historically, a bit of, like an insurmountable problem in the industry. Cause it's like, okay, well, yeah, we all kind of recognize. It would be nice to have that. But how do we get there is like, is the big question. How do we go from zero to a hundred of kind of everyone having this digitized record of what they own?
- [09:23]
Christina
Yeah. And I think. I don't know, as a user of it myself, and it, you know, a lot of people feel daunt. Like, it. It feels daunting to think, like, oh, my God, I need to go and individually take a photo of everything in my wardrobe or pull, like, the online photos of it or whatever. But once you do it, and it's honestly not that bad.
- [09:41]
Sina
It's.
- [09:41]
Christina
It moves so, so fast. Uh, Devin and I did a collab on my channel basically a year, like, straight up a year ago. And that video kind of goes through exactly how to take a photo of your. Of the item or how you can upload photos of it. And it moves surprisingly fast. So I think once you do that kind up front, it is. It's very, very satisfying. And if you guys never seen index before, it's almost like it takes shopping your closet honestly to another level because it. It actually feels like your wardrobe is now at this online store. Like, you're literally shopping online your own wardrobe. And what I found the most helpful with it is it really helps you. Like, once you get everything in there, you can see your whole wardrobe at a glance. So there's that kind of adage of, like, you know, we wear 20% of our wardrobe 80% of the time. And I think part of that is just because of, like, an organizational issue. Like, you can only see. When I open up my wardrobe, I only see, like, what's in front of me. I don't see what's to the side. I don't see what's in my drawers. So it, like, out of sight is out of mind. Right. And I feel like this just helps open up the potential of your own clothes. And as you say, Devin, like, gets you so Excited about what you already own. It's like. Yeah, I don't know. It's a really, really cool thing.
- [10:56]
Sina
No, I think there's a huge. And we think about this a lot. I think there is a huge, just psychological component to just literally making your own closet look like a store.
- [11:06]
Christina
Yeah, right. Like satisfying.
- [11:09]
Sina
It feels satisfying. There's something to opening up, I think, like, to being like, just like couch rot. Like, when you're couch rotting. Like, and there is something, of course, like, it'll never replace the irl, like, fully. It will never replace the IRL of actually trying something on, playing around, feeling what's right. But, like, if you're sitting on the couch, like, you don't really want to get up and go dig through your closet. Right. Like, that's not the. Like, that's not the. That's not the activity that you're really wanting to do at that moment. Right.
- [11:32]
Christina
It takes a lot of effort. Yeah.
- [11:34]
Sina
What you want is to open up. Like, you want a two screen, Right. You want to be watching something. You want to open up your phone, you want to scroll. Something that's like beautiful, inspirational, organized in a little grid pattern. Right. That you can just kind of let your brain melt with. Right. I don't know. And so I think there is like an even in the way that we just designed the app. I think we wanted it and we prioritized making it just like a beautiful aesthetic experience to kind of scratch that same itch in our brains. Because at the end of the day, I think we all are just kind of working with the same monkey brains here. And so sometimes it's. I think sometimes it's a lot easier to try to work with that brain and kind of trick it into different ways of. Of doing things rather than to try to just go completely against those. Those instincts entirely.
- [12:19]
Christina
Yeah. Find ways to kind of make that habit easier, I guess. Like, how do you lean into it, something you're. You're already doing? It's like that kind of habit stacking thing where how can I. If I'm going to be on my phone, like, how can I do this in a way that isn't like legit rotting my brain, but really, in fact, it's making me inspired. And actually I think it's. It can even be like a resource for creativity. Right. Like, just to see your wardrobe in a different way. Because as you said, like, you can create. It feels like a video game, like paper dolls video game. And you can build outfits and you really do create combinations that you Never thought of. Right. Like, it's. Yeah, it's fun. It's.
- [12:56]
Sina
Yep. That's what you hear all the time. Yeah, it's just like, just seeing it and it sounds. I. Like, sometimes I feel a bit crazy as, like, the marketer, like, the primary marketer of this app, because I have also, like, I personally digitize my closet over five years ago at this point on a different. On one of the different apps. Uh, and I. It was so not good enough that I was like, I have to have my own. I'm gonna quit my job and make my own. But anyway, it's just like, I've been working this way for so long. Sometimes I'm like, am I even the best person to. To explain this to people? Like, I just don't even. But anyway, so I feel kind of crazy being like. No, like, really, truly, I promise you it's worth the effort. Like, as soon as you see, like, I. You'll see it entirely. Just the fact of it being on a screen, like, you just see things differently. But that is what we hear from people all the time. Like, you, Christina, is just like, I don't know what it is just the scroll. Sometimes things. Sometimes you're scrolling and there's different ways to sort your wardrobe. Right. So sometimes you'll just see something next to something that you never would have thought of before, and suddenly it's like a whole new kind of outfit tree of outfits comes to you that you just wouldn't have thought of if you were only playing irl.
- [14:00]
Alyssa
I feel like for people who are really daunted by the whole taking the time to digitize, I know what I found really helpful was sort of two. Two things is doing it by either season. If you're a capsule person, then, like, just do one capsule at a time. Like, you don't have to do all of it at once. Just like, whatever season you're in, do that. Or if you're traveling, if you're a big traveler, then, like, just do your travel capsule to start. And then I find, like, I did that with my. Like, the clothes I brought with me to Milan. And now it's just a habit. If I buy something, I snap a photo right away, it's uploaded, and. And then you can just build it that way. So it's not. It's a very easy habit to get into to. To digitize, especially. Cause, like, you both talked about how the interface is so sexy. It's like, yeah, I want to be in there, actually.
- [14:50]
Christina
Yeah.
- [14:51]
Sina
Yeah. I think it's we definitely see people just get overwhelmed at the thought of the whole thing. Right. So I think my biggest piece of advice is like, just, just start. Like, just start in some way. And you can break, you can chunk it up. There's different ways to chunk it up. Uh, as you said. And so whichever way works for you, but like, literally just take the first picture. Or even the other thing you can do is if those product images are still available online from where you bought them or otherwise, like, grab those. Like, we don't. We encouraged on our ends. Like, you don't have to take photos of everything you own. Um, although you certainly can. I think once you get started again, the thing we hear over and over again is like, oh, this is actually a bit addictive. Right. Once I get one thing in there, once I get 10 things in there, I start to see my closet come together as this digital store. Like, I actually just want to keep going. And I think to your point, like, the biggest kind of in issue is we call it kind of the backlog, the backlog problem of the things that are already in your closet. But once you tackle that going forward, so much easier. Like, maybe you can speak to that, but it's like, it's. And you did, like, it's. It's easy. Cause again, you're doing it at the moment that you're most excited about something, which is when you acquire. When you acquire it. And it's only two minutes at that point, right? Cause it's one thing or less. So it's a lot easier to keep it going going forward. So it's really just the getting started inertia, that's the biggest thing for us to overcome.
- [16:04]
Alyssa
Who are the people who are using index? You know, like, you've talked about how everyone's like, oh my God, this is so easy. Da, da, da. Are these fashion first people or are they sustainability first people? Is it both? Like, are you allowed to share that? Because I always feel like, you know, we are in this, we are in this bubble of slow fashion. Like, when people talk to me about slow fashion, I'm like, oh, yeah, everybody's into it. Like, we're fine.
- [16:26]
Sina
But like, that's really not the case. Obviously, if we look at the state.
- [16:29]
Alyssa
Of the world and like, the, the increasing amounts of like, over consumption. So who, who's using this? And do you see a shift in, like, into more intentional shopping or are we just in our bubble echo chamber of life?
- [16:45]
Sina
I love this question. It's a great one. I think the commonality we see in people who are coming on Index is people who have stuff in their closet who want to use it better and they want to get dressed better and feel more confident about it. I think that's the, that is the common factor, of course, like one step behind that there are some kind of different motivating forces. So sustainability might matter more or much less to different people. So I would say it's like not. That is not the consistent factor in our users. It's just like I have things in my closet and I want to use them. But I think the thing that I love about Index is like sustainability may not be your motivating factor to coming on board, but almost every single time it is kind of the natural output of which is what happens. And you might, and some users might not even think about it that way, but we hear, you know, all the time, like, this has helped me save money, right? Because I'm not buying either just pure repeats or I'm able to actually again use my closet more, get more out of it and not in kind of a. I feel like sometimes we talk about getting more out of your closet in kind of like a little bit of a robotic or like boring way. Do you know what I mean? Of like, well, I'm just going to keep wearing the same thing over and over. But no, it's like you actually are getting more new outfits that you love out of the closet that you have. So it's like not a boring thing. But regardless the outcome being like, oh, actually I, I think great gratefulness, like a feeling of gratitude for the things that you have and recognition that like, oh, actually maybe I don't need to buy as much stuff. And this is great. And we hear that a lot through the like, I'm saving money thing. Right? And we do have, I think this is a piece, this is a data point. I think, you know, there's so much missing, so much just like actual data in fashion as well. Particularly again around, I mean all across the board really, but especially again in how people actually use their closets. And so I think that's something that Index, at some point, hopefully soon is hoping to start bringing to the table is real data, but like how actual people are using their closets. I think the metrics that we have so far that are kind of out there floating around tend to be survey based data, which is just hard for you as an individual if you think about it. If someone asked you, which is what the survey basically is, like, how many things did you buy last last year? Or like how much do you use your stuff? Like, could you answer that question? I don't know. And so I think we hope to bring some of that actual data from. From the platform to the table. But at least in our. So what we have so far is survey data. So we have surveyed this question. So take it with a grain of salt. Cause I just told you how surveys are difficult. But we do. But we do see that behavior of people say, yes, actually I did slow down my consumption. I am able to shop less. And so we love that outcome. And so we definitely want to start measuring that in terms of just seeing actual, just like addition and subtraction behavior to people's closets as they kind of move through time. With Index, how do you see.
- [19:30]
Alyssa
I don't know if you're allowed to answer this question. How do you see the kind of data that index could generate, helping brands be more mindful about their production? Is that even your plan with the data like you said you want, you could bring this to the table. But I see, as you mentioned from the beginning of the conversation, how index is the glue. And that data is very much could be a very powerful tool in helping the industry. As you said, be more intentional, but like a. I don't think brands are gonna go for it. But like, I'm sure if, like, if you guys do it may, like, may. I mean, maybe they could. I don't see. I think it would be such a cool thing. So how do you see that data being used?
- [20:12]
Sina
It's a really so one. I think the data could be used just to educate us as consumers. Again, like, I think that's the first. That's the first place we see. Right. Is like, would love to see like Thredup publishes like a state of resale report. Like, right. I think the first place we see this going is like, index can publish like a state of our closet report. Right. And then showing that individually as well. Like, we've already taken sort of the baby steps towards that. But in the app today, right, you can see your own personal data. Like, what if that was indexed against like, the average of other people's day? So you can know not only like, how many items did I add this year, but like, what's the average of people on the platform, right? So across all the metrics, you can start to just compare yourself to what is what other people are doing. And it could get. It could get really cool. You could. I could go down that path forever. But that's one way.
- [20:58]
Alyssa
Strava for the closet.
- [21:00]
Sina
Yes. Exactly, exactly. We, yeah, we use that comparison sometimes too. And then in terms of linking in with the brand, it's like this is, it's like a tough. We think about this a lot. We don't have a final answer on it. It's a tough. But I'll share. I'm happy to share our current thinking. So cool. Yeah. Which is, you know, I think there is, like I said, there is space for there to be some sort of glue. I think some of this data can be useful to brands to again know. I think to know what people like. What's the disconnect between what you are selling and what people are actually wearing is significant, but at the same in terms of what they develop and I think what they buy into. Right. I think that might help, you know, it might help on the supply chain side to reduce kind of inventory, waste, et cetera. So I think we see a role there at the same time, on the flip of the coin again, it's like, I think it comes back to business model is just, you know, is hard and that like they are always their motivator is to sell more stuff. So I think we can help them potentially do that in a, in a, in a more thoughtful way. So rather than pushing things that you truly don't need. Right. Like another black pair of yoga pants. Right. Can we. And can we actually, I think our greatest hope is like potentially can index have some leverage in moderating a bit. Right. So yes, maybe if, you know, if the user is opted in to receive suggestions from X brand, X Brands might be able to send you those recommendations. But they have to do that in the context of an outfit. Right. They can't just send you a bunch of. Right. They can't just send you endless product suggestions that may or may not be relevant. Right. But what if they send you a suggestion in the context of an outfit where every other piece is actually in your closet. Right. So you can hopefully maybe as a consumer visualize better. Okay, is this a piece that actually fits in with my closet right before I buy it? And how exactly am I going to wear it before I buy it? So I think that if, if we were to link in in that way, I think that is kind of our product vision for how that would work. At the end of the day it's like. And it's a tough, it's a tough one to thread because they're, there's. Their motivation is going to be to sell. And so I think at the end of the day like there is some responsibility on Us as the consumer to either say, no, like, I don't want to see that, or which I think we. We very. I think, like, we feel very strongly that that is something that we will hold is like, if you don't want to see that, we will not show that to you. And then to make the evaluation yourself of, like, is that something that actually adds value to my closet and something that I will wear? Um, I think that's. I think that's true even today. Like, that is something that only you can answer. Brands can't answer that for you. And so I think that's. That's where we see. I think, see things going in terms of kind of the. The glue sticking together. So I think it can. I think it can help. It has to be done carefully, though, or else it can also go a very different way the other way.
- [24:06]
Christina
I feel like you also kind of do that a little bit with. Well, I mean, yeah, you do that now with the wish listing feature of the app. I find that. So, so. So maybe you can talk about that a little bit more and how. How you can use the wish list and integrate that with your current closet on. That's on index already.
- [24:22]
Sina
We do have a larger feature that we call collections, which we are actually in develop, revising as we speak. So maybe even by the time this podcast episode comes out, we'll. We'll be there. It should be out in the next week or two. So, yeah, so that's exciting. So there'll be new. So there'll be new stuff in there. But the basic. But the basic thing is that you can make different collections of things either that you own or that you don't own. And so one of those collection types is wish list. So that's things that you don't already own. And so if you're considering something, considering buying something. And so this is something that I do. You can already take. Take a screenshot of that picture from online, upload it into the app onto your wish list. Um, and it hides it from your main wardrobe. So it's not there every time you open the app, looking at it straight in the face. Cause I think that's also. That is a driver to buy. Um, but it's. Right, but it's hidden away. It's hidden away in the app and your wish list. And you can go in and actually just start making outfits with that thing. And that's what we recommend. And that's my practice, is that, you know, before you buy something, like, try out fitting with it. Right. I Think even. Even again, I sound a bit crazy, but even just the visual of uploading that into your closet and seeing it next to your other stuff, it's like, does it vibe? Like, does it. Does it look like it fits? And then I think you can make, you know, you can set a goal for yourself, whether that's three, five more outfits before you buy something. And what I tend to say is if that is feeling like a chore to you, like, if it is not coming off of the fingertips to make outfits, then I think that for me is like a red flag that, like, maybe this thing either isn't for me or at least it isn't something that I wanted very much in the first place. Right. It should feel. I think my. My gut check reaction is, like, it should feel, like, exciting and thrilling and like, almost like you're unlocking something to style new outfits with the piece, if it really is the piece for you. So that's how wish listing works. I think a very. Yeah, very. I think under underused. So thank you for bringing up Christina, but I think very, like, a really cool piece of the app.
- [26:09]
Christina
Is that what you did? So I know, Devin, last year you committed to only buying 12 items of clothing for the entire year. And if you follow Devin on TikTok, it's very, very cool. Like, so every month last year, you sort of went through and shared with us what you decided to buy that month versus what you didn't. So did you. Was. Was index kind of a big factor in helping you kind of weed out what you decided to add at that time versus not totally.
- [26:38]
Sina
Absolutely. I definitely have. And I have a whole video on this if, you know, anyone cares to watch. I have a very. Some would say, some would say overwrought purchasing system. I think I start. I definitely start, like, I start on Pinterest. Like, if I ever see something out in the world that tickles my fancy, I will save it into a little Pinterest list and put it away. I think that's step number one simultaneously. I also keep kind of a separate from those specific items. I will keep kind of a running list of general things that I feel like I am wishing for. Like, when I. And I. And I find that when I'm getting dressed right, like, when I'm getting dressed, like, does something like, ooh, I wish, like, this outfit would be so much better if I had whatever, a black belt instead of a brown belt here. And I don't have that. Right. And so put it on the list. I will mash Those two things together. Basically when I'm deciding what is my next thing to buy and when I basically will narrow it down to like maybe three or four things, I will take those three or four things, I will put them into index into my wish list. And that, that is like, that basically is the determining factor in what usually and what I end up buying is then what, what in the context of my closet does end up. And of course again, you have to get it, you have to fit, it has to fit you, it has to feel right. All that stuff is still a filter that you go through, but at least you have that pre purchase filter of like, does this actually complement the things that I own and do? I already feel excited to wear it. And I think a big missing, I think a missing piece that we, many of us miss is the, is the process of like really introducing a new thing into your closet. Like, we kind of like, we put a lot of effort into figuring out what to buy, but then as soon as we buy it, we kind of just throw it in to the closet and hope that we reach for it and hope we know how to wear it and then we don't. And then it just kind of gets pushed to the back and then we just keep reaching for the things that we've worn before. And so I think that's a really important step. Both you can do it both digitally and kind of once you get the item is to just like. Right. Then again, when you are most excited about the item is the time where you should be introducing it. Like you need to actively introduce the things that you buy.
- [28:42]
Christina
Yeah.
- [28:43]
Sina
How you'll do, it's like, it's like a little, it's like a group, it's like a group of friends. Right. You can't just throw them into the closet and like shut the door and hope that they become friends. Gotta do a little work there too. And so that's, and so that's great. When, when I actually receive the item, like I already have you know, three, five plus whatever outfits to start wearing the item.
- [29:00]
Christina
Yeah.
- [29:01]
Sina
And I'll make a conscious effort to actually wear that item and those outfits like in the first even like five days in a row, I'll just like do that. And just to build the muscle memory of like, what do I like this thing with, what do I wear it with? Like what does it pair well with? And so you start reaching for it because you do that. I think that's an active practice.
- [29:19]
Christina
The whole app I find really helps you flex the muscle of styling over shopping, I feel like that's kind of becoming more at the forefront of a lot of people's minds. Like, we're kind of tired of just always feeling like we need to buy something. And it's like, how do I actually. Like, how do I shut that valve off and, like, just turn up how I actually get creative and use what I have? And like you said, when you just open up your wardrobe and you just stand there and look, it's just very. It's very daunting. It's like taxing kind of mentally to start thinking about, like, what am I going to wear, what am I going to put on? It feels like a lot of effort. So I feel like if you want to bridge that gap, like, then index is a very helpful. It's very helpful to just. Yeah, like we said, like, you're sitting on the couch and just like, creating outfits or. Or planning outfits with this wish list item. It's just very. Yeah. Like, it's. What can I say? It's fun.
- [30:11]
Sina
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. We really like to think about that shift again. I feel like styling and shopping has almost like, you know, for many people, it has become synonymous. Right. It's almost like that. We think about that. Like that meme from the office where Pam holds. It's like corporate wants you to figure out the difference between these two things, styling and shopping. And most people are like, I don't. What's the difference? I don't know. Like, I don't know what that is. Like, like, that just is like, style. Style is shopping. Right. And fashion is shopping. And I think there are. But there, I think more and more people like this little group here, and I think many, probably all of your listeners are starting to recognize that difference, and they're actually like. But the problem is that. Are a problem is that, again, the fashion industry is built, like, is built to sell. Like, that's why it has become so synonymous, is that all of the tools, all of the thrust, all of the messaging we get is like, to engage in fashion is to shop. Right? Like, that's the only way you can do it. When there are. Like, that is. That is not the only way that you can engage in fashion. And we just need different tools to help us do that. Right? Yeah. And so I think that's what we hope index is.
- [31:19]
Alyssa
I like it. I like how you were talking about when you're bringing in a new piece, it gives you the opportunity to sort of introduce that piece to the other ones in your closet and flex that muscle we talk a lot on the podcast about taking a pause before a purchase and even after. I think that pause after the purchase is equally important. Like giving it space to breathe. We've. We've said that before, right? Like, give that new piece space to breathe and integrate itself into your own closet. And that kind of. That makes me think a lot about when people are on a no buy or, you know, if they. If they're doing a challenge where it's like, I'm gonna buy one piece a month. I've seen quite a few people doing that. Then it's like, okay, what do you do in that time for people who are used to shopping more often than that? Or what are you doing with that space of time? And rather than just sort of sitting and lamenting and being like, oh, I just. I have to wait until I buy my next piece.
- [32:14]
Sina
Yeah.
- [32:14]
Christina
Like, what. What's everything? I cannot.
- [32:16]
Alyssa
What am I going to do? Yeah. So rather than focusing on the empty space where you might be used to be, filling it with shopping, here you have a really great creative outlet and an actually very productive outlet to be styling those pieces, which makes me think of your initiative. Devin, like, Index is going really hard on changing the narrative of a no buy to, like, focusing on what you have and shopping your closet, which is like, of course, like, we love it.
- [32:42]
Sina
Yeah.
- [32:42]
Alyssa
Can you tell me, tell us a little bit about this, why you decided to put that focus and. And how are you guys? What does that look like for you this year?
- [32:51]
Sina
It's just something we noticed out there. We felt that the idea of a no buy just needed a little bit of a rebrand almost. Like, I think. I think there's to it because it's gotten very popular. Right. And for good reason. I think it's. It has helped so many people, and I think just dis. Like, again, making that disconnect very consciously between styling and shopping is super important. But I think there's kind of two ways to go about, like, a no buy or a low buy, especially a no buy. One is just to, like, turn your fashion brain off entirely and just to, like, just to be like, this is not something that I'm going to spend as much time or energy on. Like, I'm going to find other interests. I'm going to do other things. I'm going to fill that space with something that's not fashion, which, if that works for you, like, absolutely no problem with that. That's perfect. That's wonderful. I love it. So, yeah. So I think for many people that is challenging because the whole reason they got into this is because they love fashion and they love clothes, and there's nothing wrong with that. But as I said before, like, the only tools you've been given by the industry really, is to just keep shopping. And so we need kind of some alternative. Otherwise, you're just, again, to your point, Alyssa, just sitting there being like, when can I buy the next. What's the next thing? Right. The only place your energy is going is. Is thinking about what the next thing is. And. And that is important, right? To be intentional and thoughtful about what the next thing is. But then it can, I think, become kind of consuming to just. That's the only thing that you have.
- [34:08]
Christina
It's very hard to resist, like, when all you're thinking about is, like, what you cannot buy and then only. And then, like, just looking at things that you want to buy. It's, you know, it's not creating an environment that will set you up for success.
- [34:20]
Sina
It's like, kind of like when, like, you're like a kid is learning how to ride a bike, and you're like, don't look. Like, don't look where you don't want to go. Like, you know, the place that you will look is the. Is the place that you're gonna go.
- [34:31]
Christina
Yeah.
- [34:32]
Alyssa
Right.
- [34:32]
Sina
So don't look off the path, because then you're just gonna veer off. Right. Um, and so it ends up feeling very restrictive. Right. And I think, like, again, going back to our little monkey brains, human psychology, like, we do not like to feel restricted. Like, that is a, like, ugh, feeling. Like. And so at some point, you just break out and go crazy and by everything in sight, which I think is how you know many people.
- [34:52]
Christina
Yeah, definitely.
- [34:54]
Sina
And a no buy.
- [34:55]
Christina
That's right.
- [34:56]
Sina
And so. And so our idea was kind of the quote unquote rebrand of the no buy is like, let's make it. Like, let's connect those two things. Like, it's. It's actually. What. What are you doing instead? You are shopping your closet, which is kind of the positive. It's the. What you can do. And what you should do instead is to shop your closet. And so anytime you're feeling that itch of, like, I want to express, I have this creative urge in me that I express typically through fashion. Usually I would go shop and look at what I could add and figure that out. Right. Instead, like, here's a tool again. But in very kind of one to one way, looks like a digital store, feels very satisfying, et cetera. Where I can just actually shop my closet instead. And so hopefully people are finding that helpful as the. As the thing you do instead. That, again, feels positive and constructive as a replacement for that constant shopping. And so how can we just move more of our behavior, again from shopping to styling? And I think kind of the thing that maybe some people expect, maybe others don't, is that, you know, I think that is the way that you actually improve your style. Most people, and we see this in our styling services, we've actually gotten inquiries being like, so in our. So one of our services is called the Lookbook. And in that service, it includes up to six recommendations of new pieces you can buy, but the rest are styled within your own closet. And we've actually had people email us and say, you know, actually, I hate everything I own. I think my closet is terrible. Could you actually just recommend all new pieces in the Lookbook, right? And we say, oh, no, no, Like, I promise. Like, I promise you one, one, that's service. But two, like, I promise you, like, what you have in your closet is good. Like, it's better than you think. You know, just try it. And they do. And they're like, oh, actually my closet's quite good. Like, I don't need to throw everything out. And I'm through this process discovering more about my actual personal style than I ever did by just buying things sequentially frequently, often.
- [36:47]
Christina
We recently did an episode on AI's role in fashion, artificial intelligence, and Devin, I think, and I even mentioned in that episode how I think index in general is fairly resistant to that. And you really value that human element in your services and in the app, but being a piece of technology and an app itself, like, how do you feel about AI and the direction it's. And I guess its role in. In fashion and styling.
- [37:14]
Sina
This is a question we get often from users is just like, why. Why can't I just open this app and have it give me outfits, right? Like, why. Why isn't that here already? And so I think we take a strong stance of like, we are not there. Nobody's there yet. We don't think in terms of a styling AI. Not that nobody will get there in the future, but at least right now, if we want to go into it a little bit, probably we do. As to why, I think what we've seen is, you know, pretty much anyone claiming they have a styling AI right now is they didn't build it on their own. They are plugging into a language model, right? So they're plugging into, like, A chat GPT and you can type in and you can say what should I wear to work? Right. And ChatGPT will pull kind of all of the knowledge, the written knowledge of the Internet, right. Which is like every fashion blog in history saying that, you know, you should wear a pair of slacks and a button up shirt to work, right. And then it takes that, it takes that language description of what you should wear to work and it uses the tags on your items, right? White shirt, black slacks and puts it together into an outfit. Right. So we find that output to be pretty disappointing, to be honest.
- [38:36]
Christina
Yes.
- [38:38]
Sina
Right. I think it might be, you know, it can be helpful and just generating new again like just seeing different things that maybe you together that maybe you wouldn't have thought of. But most of the time I think with those like you are you as a user probably still putting quite a bit of human intelligence on top of it to filter out, okay. What actually is just slop that was given to me and even on some of the outfits that are somewhat good, like the filter of like, you know, okay, that those shoes don't quite work because I know that like the pants hit here or whatever. So I'm, I'm, you know, I'm swapping things out. So that's, that's level one of like, of why we don't have that yet is like we just think that the current technology as when it comes to style AI isn't there. Like I think it would need to be built visually, right. Which is just a different, very different way of building intelligence. So that's like, that's layer one, but layer two I think is that, you know, yes, you could have a computer give you outfits but I think that misses a lot of why we're searching for outfits which is that like the human connection and like validation piece of it, right. Like I do think there still is like such is ultimately style. I think like Amy Smilovic of Tibby says this, which is like, which I think we're all fans here, which is like there are kind of two ways to that you talk, that you communicate with the world, right. One is what you say and the other is what, what you look like and what you. And a big part of that is what you wear and what you choose to wear, right. And that connection is all human, right? Like what you are communicating. You're at least today we're still communicating with humans, human to human, right. So like I think like so much of what goes into style and choosing what you wear as well, like is human and then if you're looking for style help and style guidance, I think so much of that, again, is like, validation driven of like a human looked at this and put it together and thinks it's cool and stylish. Right? And that's why I'm wearing it. So I think a lot of people are like, oh, I wish that AI could just style me. But it's like, do you really, like, if you knew it was a. If you knew it was a robot, like, you would probably still be asking all the same questions of like, wait, is this a good outfit? Like, is this cool? Like, do I want to wear this? Like, so I don't know if that would solve entirely. Again, I think it could be helpful in showing you new combinations that maybe you wouldn't have thought of before, which I think is good. But I don't think it will ever solve the style problem entirely for most people because I think so much of style is so personal, and it's about what you as a human want to express about yourself. Right? It's not just, does, do these pieces of clothing look good, whatever that means, together? And so that's layer two. And then I think layer three, I guess, of whether this is good or bad goes back to, I think, again, not to beat a dead horse, but, like, we really love to go back to just what is the financial incentive behind how these things are being used? And so I think, as we before. So I think someone. Someone will build a style AI in the way I think that we envision, right? Which is more visually based. That might be us, it might be someone else. But I think just that styling AI, like, depending on your values, right, could be used for good or bad, right? Depending. But I think a lot of it is depending on the business model behind it because that. That is the, like, technology is just a technology, but, like, why it's being used and applied often comes back to, what how are people making money out of it? Right, right. And so that same styling AI, Right, An AI that takes items and puts it together into what is considered a good outfit. It could be used to help you, again, imagine new combinations from your closet, see things differently, all in the context of what you own. That same technology could also be used to, again, just, like, continually show you new things that you could buy. Right. In. In good outfits. So whether that's a good thing or bad thing, like, big picture, holistically, like, I would not just in the fashion sense, but I guess in the AI sense in general. Like, I would, I guess, encourage folks to always kind of think about, okay, what's the story behind the story here? Like, what. Why is this being shown to me and how. How is money being made and why? Right. And am I really at the center of this and the one being most benefited or is it someone else because of the business model? I think is one of the big questions to be asked in general with AI as it starts being applied across industries.
- [43:18]
Christina
That's fascinating. I agree. I think the human touch is kind of always needed and I agree. But that validation piece, I think is so true. I never thought about the human to human thing because with AI, it's just you get the most, probably the most homogeneous answer, like the most, you know, the answer that comes up the most online, the most common one or whatever. And I think like one thing in fashion I think is not everybody wants to look like everybody else. Right. Necessarily. Like, there's that personal aspect. There's that. How do I add myself into this? Like, maybe the foundation of this outfit is like very, very common or classic or whatever it is, but like, there's still the individual that needs to feel like they're seen in that outfit.
- [44:05]
Sina
Yeah. 100 totally. They have to feel. Yeah. I think especially in the kind of the expert styling sense, like they have to feel that they have been seen. Right. That they have been understood in like, who they are and what they want to express and then that someone else. It kind of is validating that and saying, like, yes, that's worth expressing. And like, here's, here's my perspective on how you could express that. That I think that like, I'm validating you and like is worthwhile and cool.
- [44:34]
Christina
And good and it's like authentic. It's. It's like authentic connection there too. You know, it's not like, oh, I'm just validating you because you like, feel like you need it, but it's like, no, like. Yeah, if this is what you tell me that like your style words are or what you're looking for or like, this is what I see that being represented as like throughout your whole wardrobe and like how we're interacting and what I understand about you, it's like, I see that, you know, Whereas I don't know if like a. Yeah. If like an AI or chat GPT can. Can really do that.
- [45:05]
Sina
Yeah. And we'll see.
- [45:07]
Christina
We'll find out all those environmental resources.
- [45:10]
Sina
Yes. Yeah. That is so. Yeah. I think, I think even if, even if there's at some point a. An AI layer to index, I think we always see There being a human component side by side with that. So I'll leave it at that. Something we run into in terms of. I don't know what the right word is to track like detractors of, like, why I wouldn't use index. One is definitely the, like the. We call it like the activation hurdle of like, how do I just get my closet digitized? Right. But another one, we kind of. No one really says it, but this is kind of. This is the vibe I get that I think a digital wardrobe, I think because maybe it has been historically so tied to data and data is a big part or it can be a big part of the experience is that there's like some segment of people who see who. Who for them, fashion is an extremely creative experience.
- [46:06]
Christina
Yes.
- [46:07]
Sina
And they almost have like a visceral ick at the idea of digitizing, period. But also the data, they're like, I do not.
- [46:16]
Christina
I don't, like, I don't want to know. Yeah.
- [46:18]
Sina
I don't want the data. And in fact, like, looking at my closet this way, like takes some magic out. Like there's some magic piece that comes together and the creative of touching and feeling and putting outfits together, standing in your closet and all of that, that they, that they get the sense that having a tool like this will take away almost or it'll make it more again robotic or clinical or you know, all those types of words which I think is really. I think it's very interesting. And I guess what I would. I mean, I guess my, you know, I'm obviously a very biased source, but I think my, My counter to that is it's a. I think it's a tool, right? And like, even creative people have tools, right? Like you have a notebook to. To. To capture your. Your creative thoughts, right? You have like, I don't know, many people have like a, like some sort of, you know, to do list or like notion set up or something, right? To like help them corral things. And so you can still be very. Or even like the idea of like a mood board, right? Like that's a creative tool that's like taking your vision for something and putting it into a system that helps you focus in, right. And like come up with new possibilities even. Right. And so I feel like my counter stat is like index is. Is another version of that, right? It's like another mood board. It's another notebook. It doesn't mean that you can't still be very creative in your closet. It's just as a way to capture that creativity when You're. Especially when you're not literally standing in your closet or we hear about people all the time. Like, I'll go stand in my closet and I'll shut my closet and then I forget what I did. Right. Like, right there is that you can take photos of yourself. Like, that's good. But you know, is that the easiest way then to go back through your outfits and figure out like, I don't know. So it's just. It is a tool to funnel creativity. And then you can use the data piece like as little or as much as you want. Like, there's no. I think there's also, like, there's no right way or wrong way to use. Index is another. Like, I think some people are like, like, if I don't use every feature, then like, it's not for me. And I'm like, you know, like, you don't. It's a tool. Like, I think there are many ways to derive value from it and it's however you want to use it. Right. Some people love tracking what they wear every single day. And like, that's of great value for them, is never missing a day for other people. That stresses them out. And it's like. And Right. And you don't have to. Right. And I think, I think also something to realize about the data piece. Again, this is at least how I look at it. Everyone can decide to look at it differently. I look at the data piece directionally, right. So like, it doesn't need to be a thousand percent accurate for it to still be helpful. And so I think that's another place people get hung up is like, it's almost on the activation piece though. It's like, oh, well, I haven't been tracking my cost per wear and I don't remember 100% what, you know, I bought things for. So like, you know, and that kind of is. Leads to like an inertia of like. Okay, well, I guess I'm not gonna. If, if the data is not gonna be totally correct, then like, why start now? But then it's like, if you never start, then it's never going to be correct.
- [49:19]
Christina
Yeah.
- [49:19]
Sina
You know what I mean?
- [49:20]
Christina
Like something easy like.
- [49:22]
Sina
Yeah, yeah. Start somewhere. Like you remember. You probably remember about what you paid for it. Right? Like, put that in. Make a guess at how many times you wore it. Right. That's like directional. That's enough to start. Right? And then like actually start tracking. And do you have to be a hundred percent accurate with everything? Do you have to get every day in there? No, over time, like, it will balance out and you will still get the insights that you probably want about your closet, whether the cost per wear ends up being $3.50 or $3.26 on something because you weren't perfect with tracking it, right? Like it doesn't matter. That will still, you'll still be able to see the relative cost where of your closet. You'll still be able to draw general insights about what you're wearing and not wearing. And that is better than having no data at all. But again, if the data doesn't matter to you and you don't want to look at things that way, then you don't have to do that either. Right. You can ignore that entirely and just use it as a way to see your closet and visualize new combinations and have a bank of outfits to go to. So I would say. Yeah, so that's my. I, I think that's, it's very interesting. There's kind of this split of like kind of all or nothing mentality of like if I don't use a hundred percent of the tools, then it's not for me. And I think it's, you know, it's flexible. It is built to be flexible.
- [50:34]
Christina
Yeah, yeah. Please feel the middle.
- [50:36]
Sina
Please feel welcome to use it that way. And in fact, I love like, I love hearing all the specific ways like. Heather Hurst, Pig Mommy recently posted a video on TikTok about how she personally uses it. And there's all.
- [50:48]
Christina
Yeah, I saw that.
- [50:49]
Sina
Right? And like even. And you know, I think she even made it kind of a comment in her videos like, you know, this isn't the right way to use index. And it's like something like that. I don't think she said exactly that, but it's like they're truly, like I said, there truly is no right way. And even like I, I love to see all the different ways people use it because I think there, there's more ways than even I could ever imagine. And it also helps semi selfishly, it helps also then figure out what products and what new features we should put into place for those kinds of different people who are using it differently. So yeah, so show, show it. Show me that I love to see it.
- [51:20]
Christina
Yeah, absolutely. Great. Yeah, I think it's a fantastic app that it's free to use, which is also a great piece. Thank you.
- [51:28]
Sina
Yeah, yeah, we did not, we did not mention that free to use at least in the basics of unlimited items, you can upload, unlimited outfits, you can save, and then unlimited collections. I think that was that was very important to us to keep that integrity and to make it an easier onboarding and to make it truly have value even in its free version. Right? Because I think our vision, I think our greater vision is like one big almost shared closet, right? Again, it's the glue that sticks things together. It's one shared closet that maybe one day we can resell and buy from. Maybe we can rent and borrow from. And so, like, we don't want to do anything that stops people from creating that digital record. Right. And using it and having be useful at the same time. We need to be a business that exists. Some, like, there are real costs to this. And so that's why we designed, I think, our expert services or styling services, as well as Insider, which is our premium subscription, which just gets you even more. Right. I think, like the base version of index is already 10 times better than just like going into your closet IRL and looking at things. And so kind of how I like to think of it is then the. The paid version, which is $5 a month, so hopefully somewhat reasonable, hopefully reasonable for most people is just even 10 times better than that. But there's value at every step.
- [52:45]
Christina
It's really nice to see the brand and the creator perspective behind what you create and the vision that you have, you know, for the people using it on the other side and like the potential there. So, yeah, I think we learned a lot. And I'm gonna go make some outfits with my morning coffee, so there you go.
- [53:04]
Alyssa
Yeah, I learned a lot. This is so interesting.
- [53:06]
Christina
Yeah, really good. Thanks.
- [53:08]
Sina
Cool. Thank you.
- [53:09]
Christina
Devin woke up super early to meet with us for this podcast, so, yeah, thumbs up just for that.
- [53:19]
Sina
Day or night.
- [53:20]
Christina
So day or night. We're all on different time zones right now.
- [53:24]
Sina
We are all.
- [53:25]
Alyssa
Yes, we're all. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So favorite creator to follow right now, David.
- [53:31]
Sina
There are so many great people. I feel like this is just like the golden age of like, just like micro creators. I right now love Percy of Verlin is I think her name. I think she's primarily on YouTube, but I think she's on other platforms as well, Instagram, et cetera. I just think she is so smart. Like her. I think her takes are always on point and they always like, teach me something different about style. She had a video a few weeks ago about why old people tend to have the best style.
- [54:02]
Christina
Oh, I know who you're talking about. She's like, she's like a podcast style and she loves like Sandy Liang stuff. Is that what it is?
- [54:08]
Sina
I think So I think so.
- [54:09]
Christina
Yeah. Okay.
- [54:10]
Sina
Yeah, we'll. We'll.
- [54:11]
Christina
We'll leave her link down below.
- [54:12]
Sina
Yeah, yeah, she's great. And so I think she thinks a lot and deeply about, like, what makes personal style personal and like, how to make that your own and do it in a very, like, comfortable, realistic way. I think I appreciate that about her and like I said, just like, smart takes in. In. In ways that I hadn't thought about before. Love that.
- [54:28]
Alyssa
I'm gonna check her out.
- [54:29]
Sina
Yeah, yeah.
- [54:31]
Alyssa
Favorite platform to be on right now.
- [54:33]
Sina
I mean, I think it's substack. I mean.
- [54:37]
Christina
Wow. Okay, I gotta get on this. I'm like, I've been slow on the stub st substack uptake.
- [54:43]
Sina
I mean, I know it's hard as a creator to be. Every new platform is like, oh, my God, am I gonna have to, like, I can't, I can't. I think substack or YouTube. I think substack or YouTube. Uh, which probably leads into the next question, but, yeah, I think there's just, you know, there are all sorts of reasons to not be on the other ones right now.
- [55:00]
Christina
Right now. I know.
- [55:01]
Sina
Right now.
- [55:02]
Christina
Yeah.
- [55:03]
Alyssa
So, yeah, next question then. Short form or long form? I feel like we already know the answer.
- [55:07]
Sina
I mean, long. Yeah, it's long form, which is ironic because my. My personal platform is short form on TikTok, so. So do what I say, not what I do.
- [55:16]
Christina
I feel like you do long form videos on TikTok.
- [55:18]
Sina
Yeah, long form.
- [55:19]
Christina
Yeah, that's true.
- [55:20]
Sina
They're like. Yeah, they're like five, five plus minute videos on TikTok, so as long as you can get on there. Yeah, I just think. Yeah, depth is where it's at right now. So especially for index, I think we, you know, it's like we need some depth of storytelling. Yeah. And that's true with. I think. I think many things. I think I saw kind of a funny take the other day that was like, I feel like we're in the cycle of fashion in general and just like culture where we're kind of almost going back towards, like, we're approaching 20 tens again, sort of like late 2000s. Like some of that stuff is starting to come back. I think the take. The take was something like, maybe we need some more hipsters again. Like. Right. Who just like love, like reading long things. Right. And like, take. Take some weird Jo Joy and also kind of pride and smugness in that. So maybe that's what we need. I thought that was funny. So.
- [56:15]
Christina
Yes.
- [56:17]
Alyssa
Yeah, I love that Physical planner or digital planner?
- [56:22]
Sina
I mean, it's got to be digital for me, right. I thought so.
- [56:28]
Alyssa
Can I ask which one you use? Do you have like one or did you build your own?
- [56:31]
Sina
Oh, like a personal, like, to do list planner notion, girly. I don't, but I don't. I think I got on to notion, you know, having seen some sort of content about it of someone who did one of those big notion, you know, setups or notion tours. Yeah, I think I started there. Like I built some. Something like that and quickly fell off of it. I also previously I also was like a bullet journal girl for like a, like two or three years. So I've gone through cycles, you know. But I think at the end of the day, I don't know, I think my system ends up being like, shockingly simple for most like people, except just based on meeting me and hearing how I talk. They're like, you probably have this like, super insane at the end of day. I think what I default to is like a very simple to do list is the thing that really my to do list, which is literally just like today and sometime else. Like, those are my two categories.
- [57:22]
Christina
Yeah.
- [57:24]
Sina
And then my Google Calendar is what runs my life. So yeah.
- [57:29]
Alyssa
Got it. Biggest style Lesson learned in 2024.
- [57:34]
Sina
I think this sounds. This might sound very simple and basic advice, but layering, man, like, oh, yeah, I think it's huge. Huge. It almost in some way, some way that it came out from the content world of seeing things and seeing more people talking about that, but also from index in terms of sometimes I feel like sometimes the board can look kind of empty and you're like, what if I. What if I added a jacket? Like, what if I like, what if I put, like, what if I put a fancy sock on there? Like, you're kind of, I don't know, again, prompted to maybe like, put, you know, try some additional things out. Sometimes they can go too far and you have to pull it back. But I think like, layering is underappreciated. Underappreciated thing to add interest to your outfit. And I think particularly I think accessories are layers as well. Yeah. And I think like, I think maybe if I can go so far as to say a fashion mistake or at least shopping mistake, I think a lot of us make is continuing to buy clothes that are relatively repetitive. Like, how many jeans do you really like? How different is another pair of jeans, right? Where like a new accessory or other type of layering piece actually gives you, like, a lot more variation into your Closet like dollar for dollar if you're gonna spend on something.
- [58:47]
Christina
Yeah, I agree.
- [58:47]
Sina
So yeah, I think like if you're, if you feel like you're missing something or your outfit's too simple, like throw a layer on and it usually fixes it for me.
- [58:56]
Christina
So yeah, third place, third layer. We need, we need both.
- [59:03]
Alyssa
And last question, your top style intention for 2025.
- [59:07]
Sina
See, this is, I'm running up against the 6:00am intention. I mean I think I lost, I lost the one that I had thought about. But what I'll say, and I think I said this in my recap video is buying on sale. Such a trap, such a trap to buy on sale. I think one of the things, one of, one of the things I noticed from my data from last year was I, you know, I did the cut. I, so I do this ranking of like it's very, again, very simple. It's like was it a love, was it a meh or was it a mistake? And then I will, and then I will cut those things by the, the price I paid for the item and the discount. And what I saw is that in my data at least was that my mez and mistakes tended especially my mez actually tended to be lower, like lower price point and or higher discounts on average. And I think that tends to reflect just you know, you, you see a deal and you're like, oh well let me prioritize that in my like what I buy next rather than really genuinely having that item be the thing that you love and above anything else would buy next. And so I think that's my intention is probably, which sounds I think a little bit crazy to some people is like maybe intentionally not shopping on sale but then also do do what I say, not what I do because and I'll put this in my recap for Jan, but literally the tippy sale got me so the very first thing. What'd you get?
- [60:34]
Christina
Let's talk about it.
- [60:36]
Sina
I know. So I bought, so I bought some very. So I literally put that in my December like end of year December recap. And then like Jan and then like January, whatever it was fifth, like bought two, two things on sale. So, so I'm cooked through March or to March, but I got the, the double waisted jean and I literally, I also literally just said how many pairs of jeans can you have?
- [60:58]
Christina
So no, no, but they are different.
- [61:04]
Sina
They are different. I love them. Like I, I love, like I love I said this to someone. Like, I just love like a really effed up pair of jeans like they just add so much like. And then I got the. I think it's called the Artemis dress. It's like that beaded the like.
- [61:21]
Christina
Oh yeah. With like the dogs on it.
- [61:23]
Sina
Yeah, yeah. And I will say. But that was, it was that something like that was on the list. So I was like a she. Like I once I wanted some sort of like sheer, sheer play thing.
- [61:32]
Christina
So.
- [61:32]
Sina
And I've already found a million way like I have like 10 different ways outfits that you can go browse in my open closet right now how to wear it. So at least right now I love those things. I'm happy with them. But yeah, it's, it's a balance. But that's my, that's my intention at least to be more aware. I love it.
- [61:50]
Christina
I think that's great. I think it's. Well, I mean I feel like a caveat to that. It's like if you would have bought it at full price, then it's like a, you know, then it's a bonus to be able to get it on sale. So.
- [62:00]
Sina
Yeah, yes, they were both, they were both things that I had on my general list as well as my Pinterest board for as long as they were available. So that's my justification right now. We'll see how it pans out towards the end of the year. But, but yeah, that's where we are. So I love that.
- [62:19]
Christina
So much fun. I think we learned so much and I, I love the rapid fire questions too because I feel like we just get to learn so much more.
- [62:27]
Sina
Yeah, me too. Different side. Yeah. Stop shut me up about index. No, no, no.
- [62:33]
Christina
So really quickly, where can people find index? What do people need to do? And yeah, we'll leave it. We'll make sure to leave everything linked down below so you guys can easily access it too.
- [62:42]
Sina
So number one thing is help a girl go download index from the App Store. It's available on iOS and Android. So for my Android girlies out there, we got you as well. You can also find index on primarily Instagram as our main social platform, but we're also on TikTok and then you can find me on Tik Tok at Devon Rule. Thank you so much for joining in our conversation this week. If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple and leave us a rating and review. It's one of the best ways to support the sustain this podcast at zero cost to you.
- [63:17]
Christina
We're also a community led podcast, so if you have Any questions for for us topic requests or even guests you want to hear from, please send us a DM on Instagram @ Sustain this podcast. We read all of our comments and look forward to hearing from you.
- [63:30]
Alyssa
We hope you join us again next Tuesday where we'll talk about so much more than clothes. Ciao.