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- [00:00]
Alyssa
Welcome to Sustain this, a podcast where we discuss mindful consumption, personal style, and the quest for living a more intentional life. I'm Alyssa, a sustainable stylist.
- [00:09]
Christina
And I'm Christina, a shopaholic turned minimalist.
- [00:12]
Ish
Ish.
- [00:13]
Sina
And I'm Sina, a color consultant and slow fashion style coach.
- [00:16]
Alyssa
Together we will unpack the nuances of what it really means to be a conscious consumer and find more joy in what we have right now. So grab your tea, your coffee, or whatever floats your boat and join us in the conversation. Let's go.
- [00:28]
Sina
Yay.
- [00:29]
Alyssa
Yay. Hello, everybody. Welcome back. We are so excited to see you have this chat. We've got a really interesting discussion for you today. I know I say that every time we found a business of fashion article which is behind a paywall, but we will still link it for you, as always, in case you're interested. The title is Is Dupe Culture out of Control? And we thought this was a really interesting conversation to have because in a sense, duplicate dupe culture is almost like disposable fashion adjacent. So we wanted to talk about perhaps what dupe culture is doing to consumers and our relationship to fashion, how that changes it, what that might be like for independent designers, and how it's just affecting the fashion landscape in whatever way we want to talk about it. So I'm really curious as to what you both think about dupes. There's a lot of interesting points in the article that I kind of noted, but I'm really curious about. About your thoughts. Have you guys ever purchased a dupe? What do you think?
- [01:39]
Ish
Yeah.
- [01:40]
Sina
Yeah, me too.
- [01:41]
Ish
For sure. I find I used to do that a lot. A lot. Where? So much so. And it didn't even just apply to fashion. It applied to things like technology, like, let's say, camera gear or furniture, makeup. Yes. And there are many cases in my experience where, you know, the dupe could be better or it's sufficient for what you need, or it's a great stepping stone to get towards what you're, you know, what you're building to, whether it be in terms of affordability or, like, skill set to use it. For example, like, I bought kind of like a beginner camera, and then I upgraded to something a little bit more. A little bit more pro later on. But I just found that especially when it comes when it came to clothing, I would end up consuming so much more and spending so much more money and waking and wasting so much more space in my wardrobe, but trying to find the good enoughs or the, you know, like the The. The pieces that are almost what I want instead of just waiting and saving and buying the thing that I at and that I originally wanted. So I made. One of my shopping rules is buy the thing that you actually want. So if it is a designer item or something that's harder to find or, you know, no longer available, let's say it's maybe vintage, it's older or whatever, if that's what I want, then I'm going to wait to buy it. Because I. I just find that I've just wasted so much time, money, all of that, trying to find the thing that's good enough, and then I still end up still wanting the original thing, and then I would end up buying the original thing that I wanted. So I would just spend double the money and have double the waste, and it would just. So now I just wait. There's something that I want, and that's the thing I want, you know, unless the dupe is better. Because sometimes you can do some research or like, you know, if some people say, like, oh, this, I'm going back to cameras or whatever, like this camera overheats, like, try this one instead, then I'll just do that research. But if it's the thing that I have my mind on and my heart set on, then I'm gonna. That's what I'm gonna buy.
- [04:02]
Sina
I didn't like that.
- [04:03]
Alyssa
Think about that. That there's dupes for other things.
- [04:07]
Ish
Yes. Yes.
- [04:10]
Alyssa
Yeah. I wonder if there's a difference, though, like, if it's something functional versus something fashion. Did you find it was harder to, like, save and wait for a clothing item versus something that has, like, a practicality to it?
- [04:25]
Ish
Harder to save and wait for clothing. I mean, I'd say when I was like, yeah, when it's more. Yeah, I'd say when I was definitely more, like in my shopaholic days, where more was always more. But it was also kind of this, like, pursuit, almost as if, like, this is the original thing that I want, but I'm going to try to find the. The dupe or, like, the. The one that's close, but there would still always be something kind of, like, off about it. In my mind, like, in my mind. In my mind, it wasn't right. So then I kept. Then it would kind of fuel this continuous pursuit to keep finding the just right piece that. But I was. But that wasn't the. Wasn't the original thing, like, wasn't the real deal. Because if it was, like a designer item or something at that time, maybe mentally and financially I just wasn't committed to buying that. But I would spend more money on the thing on than the original item trying to find things that would work that would be almost that item. So yeah. Yeah. The less but better approach I think is why I don't tend to buy into dupes.
- [05:39]
Sina
I remember once having like a pair, it was a pair of leather boots with studs on them and they were very clearly a dupe of a pair of Anita Bing boots. Like one of the. I think it was her Charlie boot but they cost a fraction of the price. They were still really good quality. Like they were real leather and they were good quality and they, but they looked almost identical and I remember just feeling, I don't know, a little bit off every time I wore them. I feel like it was, I don't know how to say, like it was.
- [06:17]
Ish
Almost, it's not quite there.
- [06:19]
Sina
And especially if people would then compliment them and ask if they were from Anina Bing, it felt even more of a betrayal almost to the brand. I don't have a problem with dupes per se. Again, like you say Christina, it depends. If it's a really original idea and a very original design, I think there's definitely something to think about there. But if it's a more classic piece or whatever or something that you could have found basically anywhere, then the lines get a little bit more blurred. And I don't mind dupes in that sense because I think people also just really want to stretch their money as far as they possibly can, 100%. I completely agree with you. I think mentally because clothing and style choices, there's so much emotion connected to that. I do agree that it's better to stick with the thing that you actually wanted in the first place.
- [07:19]
Ish
Yeah. Because that emotional connection, there's always just that slight, a little bit of disappointing or like the. It's the one that got away or, or I'll eventually get to it. That's. That's where my mindset always was with stuff like that. But you're right in terms of. Yeah, if it's like, you know, if it's a, if it's a button down shirt, like how many different ways can you really iterate that? Or like can you thrift? Can you thrift that? You know, so there's definitely that angle to it. So I really do think it depends on what you are buying and I find it kind of fascina fascinating now because I feel like a lot of. When we talk about dupes, it's a lot of it has to do with kind of duping luxury or something that people have seen on the Runway. But then it makes me think, which is, you know, and so there's the whole. There's the artistic aspect of it. There's kind of like almost like stealing the design, but then at the same time, which is awful. Like, you know, like, this is kind of what that whole business of fashion article is about. About how. Especially how dupes rip off and undermine smaller designers, especially who don't have the money to go to court and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it kind of just makes. It makes me think back to the $57 Dior bag, and then I'm kind of like, well, it. It just makes me think about, like, if the original is the best thing in our minds and that's what we're paying for and that's what we're waiting for and all of that. But sometimes the quality is not there. Like if it's a $57 Lady Dior bag, you know, So I feel like there's a. There could be that disconnect there too. But I think in this article, we're talking straight about, like, dupe is the nice word for like, counterfeit in many ways. Like if you take a Bottega bag and then sell them on Dhgate or AliExpress or something like that, because people want to get access to it, and it can fuel over consumption. And I think that's the main angle of the article that we linked.
- [09:41]
Alyssa
Yeah, I think we feel that way because, like, if you. If you go for the dupe instead of the real thing, I think both of your points were so good about. About. About whether it's like a classic piece that you could thrift. And there's only so many ways you can iterate it, but it's because we never satisfy that craving. Right. So you. You've never been fully satisfied. It's like, if you want. If you want a spoonful of Nutella and you're like, no, I'm gonna eat a date instead to satisfy this craving that I have for chocolate or whatever, it's not gonna be the same. You're still gonna want.
- [10:14]
Ish
Yeah, it definitely takes practice. Yeah. It's this whole scenario. It's like, I really want a cookie, but I'm go date an apple, peanut butter, this, this, this and that. And then. And then all of a sudden, you've eaten more than just eating the one cookie kind of thing. So, yeah, just have the. Have the cookie kind of concept. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [10:34]
Alyssa
But although it does it is harder. It's like a. More of a mental game. But, yeah, it's. It's interesting. I think even. I wonder how many of us have purchased dupes without knowing that they're dupes.
- [10:47]
Sina
And I was thinking about that too.
- [10:49]
Alyssa
Like, in the sense that the fashion. The trend cycle has moved. Move so much faster because of this, because copies are so much more accessible, and they're touted all over social, and then we get tired of them. But for some people who maybe aren't as, you know, finger on the pulse of whatever is trending every second, maybe you find it in a secondhand store, you find it elsewhere, and you decide you like it, and then, you know, eventually you see that it was something original, but not the original.
- [11:24]
Sina
And even just with the amount of fashion brands existing today as well, I think it's hard for. Because that's how fashion brands make collections. I'm not saying every fashion brand will just copy everything they see on from every other brand or from the Runway, but you do go on, like, inspiration trips, and you do spend a lot of time online researching for trends, and it's all a cycle, you know, And I think it's an inevitable not to have. I don't want to say copies, but. But you get inspiration.
- [11:58]
Ish
Like, you get inspiration.
- [11:59]
Sina
Yeah, exactly.
- [12:00]
Ish
Yeah.
- [12:01]
Alyssa
Well, yeah.
- [12:02]
Sina
I mean, how innovative can. Can we be at this point?
- [12:05]
Alyssa
Yeah. Like, it kind of brings up the question of, is there any such thing as an original thought these days? And you could even, like, apply that to so many things, like, what else? How else can you dress yourself? And I thought it was interesting that they made that reference to. I think it was, like, around the 30s or like an interwar period where the American ready to wear designers would literally wait for the Paris runways. And then when Paris shut down because of the war, I was listening to a podcast. It was so interesting. Like, American designers didn't know what to do. They were freaking out. They're like, wow, we don't know now. Yeah, the end. And that's when. That's when American sports were really took off, because American designers had to design for themselves. And that's kind of what created the whole. The whole esthetic. So it's almost like. It's really interesting. What I thought that was an interesting piece that it's existed since the beginning of time, I think. But do you.
- [13:05]
Sina
I think it's also interesting, the whole, like, why you. Why you buy the dupe in the first place? Because I think for a lot of people, it would be to save Money, I can get a good or maybe a little bit lower quality, but I'll be fine with that for, you know, a fraction of the original price. And then I think on the other side of that, we have the people who buy the originals because they also buy the brand. Like, they also buy the emotional attachment that they have to the brand and the entire brand's history, which I think is another part of the.
- [13:39]
Alyssa
Yeah, yeah, there's something attached to it.
- [13:43]
Sina
Yeah. Again, there's so many emotions attached to our fashion choices, not just in the way we dress and. Yeah, not just in the way we dress and style ourselves, but also in the way we buy. Especially if it is more special, higher cost pieces. We. We hold on to those for a long time because they also mean more to us. Like, it's not just the piece that we buy because of its esthetic and its functionality, it's also because we have some sort of an emotional connection to that piece and that brand.
- [14:12]
Ish
Yeah, it's the value that you place on the brand too. Right. Like they were kind of talking about, you know, a lot of people, a lot of brands or companies are duping, like Lululemon leggings, for example. And if you are loyal to Lulike, but the. There'll be a lot of TikTok content, for example, it'll be like, oh, I got these. Get these $30 leggings from Amazon. It's a dupe for the Lululemon. Lululemon leggings. Why pay $120 for these Lululemon leggings versus $30 for the Amazon ones? And I'm like, logically that, I think logically that makes sense. And I think that's why dupes are so appealing to a lot of consumers. But in my head, I'm like, well, I've shopped at Lulu, for example, like, not endorsed by Lulu, none of this, but just, I don't know, like, it's, it's like ingrained in a lot of Canadian culture, I think, at this point. So it's like in my mind, I'm like, well, I wouldn't buy anything other than them. Like, I don't want to search for the, for the dupe because I'm satisfied with this one. But, but yeah, there's other factors that go into it. Because if, if, if you can't afford the $120 legging, then this is how you get in. But you want that piece for yourself. Like, that's how a lot of folks get into. Get into that or like, acquire that. That Thing, So there's an accessibility piece. But they were also. This article also kind of alluded to. There's almost this, like, sense of entitlement to get the cheapest to access certain things in fashion for the cheapest price possible.
- [15:55]
Sina
Even if you could maybe afford the slightly higher. Like, I think it raises the question of what lies within a price in general. Right. I mean, again, Christina, it sounds like you have a bit more of an emotional attachment to the brand as well, and you have more brand loyalty.
- [16:13]
Ish
Yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of, like, I shop that way. I find, like, if I find a brand that I like that's fairly consistent, then, like, I kind of go there first.
- [16:21]
Sina
Yeah, you want to support the brand too. It's not just a matter of the product. It's also about supporting the brand. The brand. Right.
- [16:28]
Ish
Yeah. And it also makes me think about, like, well, even in smaller brands, like, they're talking about. What's her name? Blogilates? Cassie. What's her name? Cassie Ho.
- [16:48]
Alyssa
Oh, yeah.
- [16:48]
Ish
Casey Ho. So she has, like, a activewear brand, and I. I see her kind of pop up on TikTok here and there, and she'll talk about how she kind of designed the brand and, like, focuses on, like, little innovations and improvements. And like, this is what I want in my ideal hoodie. This is what I want in. In this. And what I'm kind of getting at here is these brands, big or small, if they're kind of the originator, they spend that time creating the innovation, creating the design, creating the iterations. Because, you know, a lot of garments have to go through a lot of steps to get to the final product. And I would think that a lot of that, A lot of kind of what we pay for, too, on top of brand name and marketing and all those things that we talk about, like, you're probably. You're paying for the innovation of that, of that item. Like, if it's a certain legging, if they are the OG legging, then it's like, you know, they. They innovated that they put money into creating that. And like, that's. Maybe we're part of the prices too. And then. And then brands and then kind of dupes can just turn around and just steal that design and then, you know, sell it for a whole lot less. That becomes a problem for. For especially smaller brands that can't really compete and they can't put out product as quickly and things like that, too.
- [18:14]
Sina
I feel like it's almost like when you set a price for a service. So all three of us have done, like, styling services, for example. And I know that also my color analysis services might be higher price than some of my local, like, competitors or competitors I might have in Denmark. But it's like. Yes, but again, what. It just raises that question of what is in that price. It's not necessarily just me wanting to set the highest possible price. It's also the fact that, you know, we have background knowledge and we have some expertise in each of our fields. And, you know, there's a lot of other factors. I think that. I think it's okay to take a higher price when you have more knowledge and more, like you say Christina, you take more time to develop products or services. It's.
- [19:04]
Alyssa
I think it's just harder for the consumer to see. Right. Like, the intangible value.
- [19:09]
Sina
Yeah, I completely get that. Yeah.
- [19:11]
Alyssa
Right. Like, it's. But I totally agree. It's like, it's. You know, there's that diagram where it's the iceberg, and then the. Just the tip is at the top. And then it's like, here's what everyone sees. And then there's this giant. It's like, that's all of the years of experience and that.
- [19:26]
Sina
Yeah.
- [19:26]
Alyssa
You don't see. I thought it was interesting from, like, the designer. I don't know if it was Cassie Ho or another designer maybe they interviewed, but how it. Dupe culture can force independent designers to. Designed to, like, as a race to the bottom, like, they have to cut corners in order to compete. Or, you know, she was like, okay, maybe I have to add a product to my offerings this season that is cheaper to satisfy. And it's like, we kind of. It's the commercialization of. Of art and style, which is a bit difficult to handle, to swallow. I think for me too, you know, just knowing that these designers are kind of being forced. It's the same thing with creative directors at these big fashion brands. Right. Like, you always wonder what goes on in those. In those rooms, in the conversations. It's like, are you designing to sell or are you design. Like, obviously you need things to sell. They need to be functional. But I just. I can only imagine what that must be like for. For independent designers to feel like this is something else that they have to. Another factor that they have to think about in their designs.
- [20:35]
Ish
Yeah, I think it's. I think this is a really fascinating conversation because I feel like a lot of the times we just kind of like accessing the highest quality for the cheapest price. And I feel like a lot of These conversations are centered around price. But there's just so much. It just makes me kind of realize that there's so much that goes. There's so much other elements to this.
- [20:53]
Alyssa
It's kind of like the. It's kind of like the choose hard. That's what this makes me think about a lot. Like, it's like you're. At least from when you said, like, the talk is a lot about price, but ultimately, I think too, it's about our. Our behavior. Like the saving and waiting.
- [21:08]
Ish
Yeah. I can get, like, I can get the 20 leggings off Amazon. Why wouldn't I do that? But I don't do that necessarily. So, like, I'm just trying to think about what are the other factors in my mind that makes me kind of happy to pay the price of the higher quality. Not. I don't. Not even higher quality brand, but like, the brand that I'm familiar with, you know, probably also.
- [21:28]
Sina
Yeah.
- [21:29]
Ish
There's a lot of psychology, I think, behind it.
- [21:31]
Sina
Yeah. And maybe also because we talk about TEMU sometimes, and I think there's. At least here in Europe, there's a lot of. A lot of this discussion is evolving around, like, what's in these products, how they're. They've not been quality checked. And there's a lot of research that shows that there are a lot of, like, toxic chemicals left in many of these. Both fashion products, but also makeup and skincare products, stuff like that. That there's not as much, you know, the quality. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's also why I would rather trust it coming from a brand, at least if it's a brand that has a higher level of transparency. So you know exactly where that product comes from.
- [22:19]
Alyssa
I think. Sorry, sorry. I was just thinking about, like, yeah. Christina's point. And Cena, when you were talking about Team you, I almost wonder if it's like, we have to rethink and rework the definition of affordability, quote, unquote. Because if we are looking at the price piece of the conversation, it's like, yes, like, it's good that things are more accessible. And when you were thinking, Christina, like, okay, why do I buy from X brand instead of Y? And I do think, like, in my head, I was like, why do I do that? And I think it's a. Because I can afford it. But also, even when I can't afford it, I wait and I still buy the thing.
- [23:04]
Ish
So, yeah, like, that's my shopping rule, you know, for other things.
- [23:08]
Alyssa
Yeah. And it's like, we all and we've said many times on the podcast we can't afford to buy cheap. So I think affordability has to be be seen beyond the simple, like, monetary aspect of it. I think we don't. Perhaps we're just consumers and rightly so. Like, life is really expensive. Maybe we don't think about affordability from a holistic perspective. It's like, no, I can't afford to buy the $125 Lululemon legging, but can I afford to buy three other pairs in its place? Can I afford to wait for it? No. Okay, then maybe you do get the cheaper one. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think, I think, you know, I think perhaps the definition of afford has to be looked at or affordability has to be looked at in a number of different ways. And I think you have to be honest to yourself when you are saying, I can't afford these. Is it. What is it that you can't afford? The time, the budget? Because sometimes there are, There have been times when I've have wanted to save and wait for a piece, but I, I actually needed. I forget what I needed, but I remember I had to go to Zara and buy something because I was like, I. I have to go somewhere. I have to wear this thing. I think it was like, I don't know what it was, but so it. Affordability is a. I think it's like a quite a loaded, loaded conversation altogether, I feel like.
- [24:39]
Ish
And then what are your thoughts on how this article also touched on how the dupe culture almost creates like a throwaway culture kind of speaking about for affordability. If these things, if we're again going back to price, like, some of these things are so cheap to make them so accessible just so you can get this thing and then, you know, you kind of go on to the next thing. Or like, the things are, they're, they're very, very cheap, but they're also made of really poor quality. Like, dupe in the sense of, like, it's not the exact thing. Like, it could it just maybe look similar or, you know, this is one stretchy fabric, but this is like, you know, they don't use the exact blends of the, of the original versus the other. You know, kind of going back to Sina's point about the quality control and things like that. Like, I think some of some of these dupes get turned around so quickly because they see it and then she and, or whatever other company will just take it and then put it out next in the next week. For $5, you know, so the quality is not there. And then. So we can consume it, and then we find what comes out the week, like, you know, the next week, and then keep consuming that. And so this article sort of touches on how dupe culture has almost created, like, it's almost contributed to this, like, throwaway culture of consumption. That. That is a huge problem right now.
- [26:09]
Sina
I think that's where it becomes an issue. Right.
- [26:13]
Ish
And I think we. We touched on that in a. In one of the episodes where we talked about trends. Like, I think I brought up, like, if you, you know, I think we talked about the mesh flats. So it's like, yeah, if you want to experiment, you buy the dupe to try it on for size, and then.
- [26:28]
Sina
Yeah. And then you get the real deal later.
- [26:31]
Ish
Yeah. But I. I find, like, again, that's. This is what I've done. I've done that so many times in the past, and I just, I was like, I just. There's something in my brain is like, it's not right and I don't want, you know, and then now you end up with two pairs of shoes.
- [26:45]
Alyssa
So it's like, yeah, I think.
- [26:48]
Ish
Yeah.
- [26:49]
Alyssa
I have two thoughts. This is such a great. That was such a good question and thought. It comes down to int, which is, where are you even seeing this? Why do you want this thing in the first place? Is it something you actually need? Is it something you were looking for? And as part of your research, people are recommending these alternative options so you're going to consider them, or is it just because you saw it? Or it's a trend and you want it now and you want it for cheaper and like, all of these things are okay. But I think understanding your tension is really important as to why you want this thing. And I think, secondly, I think, secondly, a good way to combat that is if you do want the thing is like, I'm trying to think of what I do. Like, I would have. I think you can put the thing on your list, put it on your wish list, but I would even separate. I would try to make it as general of a thing as possible. So if it's a pair of mesh flats, for example, I wouldn't put on the list mesh red. I wouldn't be as specific. I would just make it super, super general so that you're not really swayed. Do you know what I mean? And then it becomes like, you're not.
- [28:11]
Ish
Tied to a specific trend or a specific model of.
- [28:14]
Alyssa
Yeah, yeah. Because then you're buying the thing for Other properties you're buying. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, you're buying it for the elements that it gives you. You're buying it because it's cool, because it's comfortable, because it has texture and you need texture in your closet, not because. Yeah, that. Do you know what I mean? Does that sort of.
- [28:31]
Sina
Yeah, that makes a roundabout way.
- [28:34]
Alyssa
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
- [28:36]
Sina
Yeah, no, I like that. That makes sense.
- [28:38]
Alyssa
This was a really interesting discussion, as always. I feel like there's a lot of nuance to topics around slow fashion and sustainability. And when we have these discussions, like, we are not talking or thinking in black and white terms. We're not saying dupes are bad. All dupes are bad. Never buy dupes. Like, that's absolutely not what we were talking about. I think the points that I took away were that dupes have a really interesting effect on the market in that they do facilitate over consumption and perhaps the way we see. We perceive products out there on the market now and our. And our relationship to them and our relationship to fashion.
- [29:21]
Ish
It's Facebook status. It's complicated.
- [29:24]
Alyssa
Yes.
- [29:26]
Sina
Yes, that's exactly. Yeah. And I guess we're just like. For me, I definitely just. I always think twice before I buy something, which is not necessarily clearly a dupe, but if I know deep down it's a dupe, I always think twice about the purchase. So. And you mentioned that earlier, Alyssa. I think it's. It all comes down to the intention of the per. Behind the purchase.
- [29:48]
Alyssa
That's it. I think intention is really key. So. Yeah. I hope you enjoyed today's discussion. Thank you for listening. If you have any questions or thoughts around dupes, pop them in the comments below if you want to engage in deeper discussions. If you want to hear from us a little bit more, you can always join our membership. It's over on YouTube. For those of you who are listening, there's a little Join Join button right underneath the subscribe or beside the subscribe. Just hit that and you'll hear more from us. Once a month we drop an ask us anything episode and otherwise just, you know, hit like hit subscribe. Rate the podcast. Share it if you liked it. We always love chatting with you here and we'll see you in the next one. Ciao.
- [30:34]
Sina
Thank you so much for joining in our conversation this week. If you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple and leave us a rating and review. It's one of the best ways to support the sustain this podcast at zero cost to you.
- [30:51]
Christina
We're also a community led podcast, so if you have any questions for us, topic requests, or even guests you want to hear from, please send us a DM on Instagram @Sustain ThisPodcast. We read all of our comments and look forward to hearing from from you.
- [31:04]
Alyssa
We hope you join us again next Tuesday where we'll talk about so much more than clothes. Ciao.