Episode 282

Summary

Sword and Scale - Episode 282 Summary: "Trapped in Darkness"

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Introduction

Sword and Scale, a renowned true crime podcast, delves deep into the most harrowing criminal cases, shedding light on the darkest aspects of human nature. In Episode 282, released on February 17, 2025, the podcast explores the tragic story of Jennifer Kukla, a woman plagued by mental illness and addiction, culminating in the unspeakable act of murdering her two young daughters.

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Case Background

The Kukla family, residing near Macomb, Michigan, has long grappled with issues of addiction, mental illness, and familial secrets. Lauren Kukla, 21, emerges as the family's anchor, shouldering responsibilities far beyond her years. Despite managing her own household and caring for her nieces, Lauren is constantly battling the chaos brought about by her older siblings.

Key Points:

• Family Dynamics: Lauren's sister, Elizabeth (Lizzie) Kukla, struggles with drug addiction, having lost custody of her children. The eldest sibling, Jennifer (Jenny) Kukla, is a functioning alcoholic battling to maintain custody of her two daughters.
• Mental Health History: The family history is marred by mental illness, with their late mother suffering from schizophrenia. This backdrop sets the stage for Jennifer's deteriorating mental state.

Notable Quote:

"Jennifer turned out to be a normal, functioning member of society after growing up in a household like this is really a mystery." — Narrator [00:57]

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Events Leading Up to the Crime

On February 3, 2007, Jenny reaches out to Lauren amidst another meltdown, fearing that Lisa Fabbrey, a neighbor, and Lizzie might report her to Child Protective Services (CPS). Believing her children are at risk of being taken away, Jenny's paranoia intensifies, especially as her alcoholism spirals out of control.

Key Points:

• Immediate Crisis: Jenny's living conditions are dire—she's financially strained, her trailer is in disarray, and there's no running water.
• Lauren's Intervention: Determined to prevent Jenny from losing her children, Lauren assembles a group of friends to help clean up the trailer, offering them a small payment for their assistance.
• Heightened Paranoia: As they work, Jenny becomes increasingly paranoid, fearing that those who came to help might report her, leading to the loss of her daughters' custody.

Notable Quotes:

"She was afraid that her kids may be taken away. She wanted to make sure that they were, you know." — Lauren Kukla [06:23]

"If you want to talk to us right now?" — Jennifer Kukla [30:22]

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The Crime Itself

The following day, February 4, 2007, after a strenuous day of cleaning and battling internal fears, Lauren checks on Jenny's trailer. What she discovers is a scene of incomprehensible horror.

Key Points:

• Discovery: Lauren finds the front door ajar, the house suspiciously silent, and the usual signs of life absent.
• Confrontation: Upon entering, Jenny, disheveled and displaying erratic behavior reminiscent of their mother's mental episodes, confronts Lauren.
• Murder: Jenny admits to killing her daughters, Alexa (8) and Ashley (5), as well as their pets. She claims voices directed her actions, believing she was saving her children from a worse fate.
• Aftermath: The trailer is left in a state of desolation, with the lifeless bodies of the children and pets serving as a grim testament to Jenny's tragic downfall.

Notable Quotes:

"I'm going to the deep ends of hell. And it's all over now, and it's done." — Jennifer Kukla [26:12]

"I never should have had kids. Should have looked at my mom and said, well, she's psycho. Make sure I can do it to nobody else. Don't have kids." — Jennifer Kukla [72:23]

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Aftermath and Investigation

The aftermath of the crime sends shockwaves through the community and the family alike. Investigators delve into Jennifer's troubled past, uncovering layers of trauma, abuse, and unaddressed mental health issues.

Key Points:

• Police Response: Detectives interview Jennifer, who remains incoherent and emotionally detached, struggling to comprehend her actions.
• Mental Health Evaluation: Psychologists testify that Jennifer was legally insane at the time of the murders, advocating for her to be found guilty by reason of insanity.
• Family Revelations: Through interviews with Lauren, the magnitude of Jennifer's struggles becomes evident, highlighting a cyclical pattern of trauma and mental illness within the family.

Notable Quotes:

"I had a couple shrinks when I was a kid, but that's 'cause I was getting molested and stuff. My mom always stopped taking me and shit." — Jennifer Kukla [51:39]

"After living through that trauma, this same parent deterred her children from seeking mental health services." — Narrator [68:03]

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Trial and Conclusion

In September 2007, Jennifer Kumar faces trial for the heinous murders. Despite compelling psychological evidence supporting her insanity plea, the jury convicts her of first-degree murder.

Key Points:

• Trial Proceedings: Three psychologists testify to Jennifer's legal insanity, but the jury remains unconvinced, citing inconsistent testimonies and observed behaviors.
• Verdict: Jennifer is sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, albeit with provisions for mental health care.
• Community Impact: The case leaves an indelible mark on those involved, from the grieving family to the responding officers haunted by the scene.

Notable Quotes:

"You have to try hard not to think about it rationally. It was an irrational act. You never let it go." — Narrator [54:57]

"Is this real? What did I do?" — Jennifer Kukla [43:09]

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Reflections and Conclusions

Episode 282 of Sword and Scale serves as a poignant exploration of how intertwined mental illness, addiction, and familial trauma can culminate in tragedy. The Kukla family's story underscores the dire consequences of unaddressed mental health issues and the ripple effects they can have on multiple generations.

Key Takeaways:

• Cycle of Trauma: The generational trauma experienced by the Kukla family illustrates the profound impact of a parent's mental health on their children.
• Awareness and Intervention: Jennifer's case highlights the critical need for timely mental health interventions and the challenges faced when dealing with covert mental illness.
• Moral Questions: The episode prompts listeners to ponder the thin line between understanding and justice, especially in cases involving severe mental health deterioration.

Notable Quote:

"Before, she was telling me about manipulating, hypnotizing. She never told me she was doing it. But thinking about it now, I guess." — Lauren Kukla [61:33]

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Conclusion

"Sword and Scale" continues to unravel the complexities of true crime, presenting not just the facts of the cases but also the underlying human emotions and societal issues. Episode 282 offers a tragic narrative of a family ensnared by mental illness and addiction, culminating in a devastating loss that serves as a stark reminder of the importance of mental health support and intervention.

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Notable Quotes Summary:

• "[...] the rising heat goes unnoticed..." — Narrator [01:57]
• "Is it us versus them? Or are we just like 'them' too?" — Narrator [Description]
• "[...] the worst monsters are real." — Narrator [Description]
• "That was not supposed to happen." — Narrator [Transcript Context]

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the provided transcript and podcast information. For an in-depth understanding, listeners are encouraged to tune into the full episode of "Sword and Scale."

Transcript

[Lauren Kukla]

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. She said, I'm going to the deep ends of hell. And she said, it's all over now and it's done.

[Narrator]

There's a new show coming, so stick around after the music and you'll find out more. This is season two, episode 282 of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. Well, I lied. Not about the show that's coming up. It is coming up, but about telling you about the show that's coming up. Because I'm not going to tell you anything. I'm going to keep it a secret this time. You're not going to find out a damn thing till it comes out March.

[Lauren Kukla]

3Rd.

[Narrator]

In a family where chaos reigns, it's easy to lose sight of the cracks forming beneath the surface. Born into a world of addiction, mental illness and unspeakable secrets, one can grow so accustomed to the madness that it becomes invisible. Each day brings a new crisis, a new fire to put out. And amidst the smoke and shadows, it's impossible to notice the creeping darkness closing in. The familiar feels like survival until it's not. Like the proverbial frog sitting in a pot of water, the rising heat goes unnoticed. There's too much to manage, calming the parents paranoid delusions steering a sibling away from another destructive path, trying to hold it all together. The storms are so familiar that they barely register anymore, and while tending to each fresh disaster, something far more dangerous is below. It's a slow, insidious bubbling, and before there's any time to escape, the water has reached a dangerous 2007, 21 year old Lauren Kukla found herself shouldering the full responsibility of her family's physical and emotional well being. Though she had small children of her own, their needs aren't what I'm talking about here. Lauren was not only caring for her immediate household, but also managing the endless conflicts between her late schizophrenic mother and her four older siblings, none of whom could seem to get their lives together for some reason, Conveniently, they all lived in the same area near Macomb, Michigan, and Lauren was stuck carrying a burden far beyond her years. Though her siblings houses were chaotic, messy and filled with conflict, Lauren's house was different. Though she was young, she and her family lived a white picket fence kind of life compared to her two older sisters and two older brothers. Her sister Elizabeth or Lizzie was on drugs and had already lost custody of her children. And her sister 30 year old Jennifer or Jenny, the oldest of all the siblings, was walking that same tightrope. How Lauren turned out to be a normal, functioning member of society after growing up in a household like this is really a mystery. On Saturday, February 3, 2007, all while trying to juggle her career and her young children's needs, Lauren got a call from Jenny. As usual, her oldest sister was having a meltdown and needed help.

[Lauren Kukla]

He had told me that she believed that Elizabeth Kukla or Lowry, I'm sorry, her sister and Lisa Fabbrey, the neighbor growing up, every ice buff, everything a, B, B, R. I had led her to believe that they were going to have her kids taken away. They were going to call the cps. As far as I know at that time that was a truthful statement. Lizzie denied it when I went to her, to her place of appointment later. But at that time I could see her saying something like that because she said it to me before, plenty of times the past couple years. She said she hates Jenny. She wishes she would just clean up her act and blah, blah, blah, whatever. Because Lizzie got her kids taken away. She thought that she was fighting for them, but she wasn't fighting for them because she was always doing crack and shit like that. So she wasn't really working at it, but she wanted anybody to blame as she could. So now she wants. I could see her wanting some kind of revenge or wanting Jenny to feel the same pain as her.

[Narrator]

Lizzie wasn't threatening to report Jenny to CPS because she was genuinely concerned about her nieces. She just hated her sister and wanted to see Jenny lose her kids too. Nice, right?

[Lauren Kukla]

You could hear that she was afraid that her kids may be taken away. She wanted to make sure that they were, you know.

[Detective]

Do you believe she sounded intoxicated at the time?

[Lauren Kukla]

No, I didn't hear. I mean, Jenny was an alcoholic as is, so I couldn't tell the difference either way. You know what I mean? She wasn't stupid drug kid by that time. Okay, so when she called, I just. I know that she, she. You could tell that she just wanted to make sure that the girls were. I mean, that the house was taken care of because she did not want to lose her kids. She was concerned.

[Narrator]

The whole family knew Jenny was an alcoholic, but her habits had gotten worse over the prior months. Finances were tight and she was spending any extra money she had on beer and all of her free time drinking it. The kids, three dogs, the pet mouse, none of them were being cared for properly. And the trailer they lived in was an absolute Disaster, as you can imagine. To top it all off, they didn't even have running water.

[Detective]

How long were the pipes frozen for?

[Lauren Kukla]

She had said something to me on Thursday about it.

[Detective]

So just a few days?

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah.

[Investigator]

Frozen or it's just shut off?

[Lauren Kukla]

Frozen. Everything worked, the heat worked and everything. Except the furnace broke the day before and Al came and fixed it that day.

[Narrator]

Al was Jenny's boyfriend. He lived nearby and the two were still friends.

[Investigator]

Did your sister maintain that trailer on her own with whatever he come from McDonald's?

[Lauren Kukla]

For the most part, yeah.

[Investigator]

She kept the heat on and kept the water.

[Lauren Kukla]

I think there was one time in the spring that she had her gas turned off and she called me. It was after. It was. It was fall because my mom had already passed away. She called me and she said, she said, you gotta call Grandma. And now I'm gonna go between. Between Grandma. Because I took it upon myself to make sure everything was taken care of with my mom and taken care of with Grandma. Everybody kind of looked at me as the one who would help them if they needed something from grandma. So she asked me, I need money for rent, I need money to fix the car, I need money to get my license back. I need money to, you know, all this stuff. And all I could think was, Jenny, you gotta get clean, you're drinking, you know, I can help you. And grandma goes, I bet you. I didn't give her a lecture. I said, you have to give her a lecture every time, otherwise she doesn't know how you feel. Grandma, I said, this is your fault, you know. And I just. She did have it shut off a couple times, but not to the extent where the girls didn't have anywhere else to go or, you know, couldn't take care of themselves and stuff. And they always had food in the fridge and stuff, stuff like that.

[Narrator]

So unfortunately, food in the fridge is not the only criteria CPS looks for when deciding whether a home is safe for children. It looked like Jenny might actually get a visit from a social worker. And it wouldn't be the first time. CPS had taken her kids before, but she knew that if it happened again, she might not be able to get them back. Lauren didn't want to be at her family's beck and call. She knew Jenny's situation was largely because of her own unwillingness to get help for her alcoholism and whatever else was going on in her drama filled life. Her chief concern were her two nieces. Jenny's eight year old daughter, Alexa. Apologies if I just activated your devices at home. And five Year old daughter Ashley. So Lauren, the family crisis manager that she was, gathered some friends, a guy named Russell and a woman named Jessica. She offered them 10 bucks for their time and drove them over to her sister's house to help her clean it up.

[Lauren Kukla]

So then I went to Al's house to pick her up and she.

[Detective]

You went to whose?

[Lauren Kukla]

Al Vanderboss, which was the man where she was at. He lives in trailer park as well. They're all within a two block radius. So I drove over there after I asked Russell and Jessica. They wanted to make tech bucks. I asked Stacy too, but she said she didn't want to go in the house because she know it's too dirty. She wanted to go upset.

[Detective]

Okay, so you picked up Jenny and the two kids?

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah, no, I picked up Jennifer. The kids stayed there with Al, and I had Russell or Jessica in the car with me.

[Detective]

Okay, so you picked up Jennifer at Al. What's his last name?

[Lauren Kukla]

Vander. Vanderboss. I think it's in the statement. I think Vanderboss. I'm not sure.

[Detective]

Vanderboss. And is that she a boyfriend? Just ex.

[Lauren Kukla]

Boyfriend.

[Detective]

Still friends kind of thing of Jenny, right?

[Investigator]

Yeah.

[Detective]

Okay. Kids. Kids were lost there?

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah. She got in the car, she was acting fine. She just said, you know, let's go right now, get this done. And I said, okay, Jenny, you know, we have a couple hours or whatever. We'll get it done.

[Jennifer Kukla]

She was.

[Lauren Kukla]

She was upset. I remember her saying something. She was upset because she thinks Lisa and Lizzie were going to call.

[Detective]

Where did she get the information?

[Lauren Kukla]

She said that when she was over at Elizabeth's house earlier that day, she was on the phone with Lisa, and Lisa had told her something that triggered a memory of how it's possible that she may have been hypnotized into being a bad person and that like, who was hypnotized? Jennifer. She said that she. Lisa said something that triggered a memory of some kind into her, realizing that she may have been hypnotized during her teenage years.

[Narrator]

Jenny was probably grasping at straws, trying to find reasons why her life turned out as terribly as it did and why she couldn't seem to be a good parent like her little sister Lauren. Gee, I wonder why. Being, you know, hypnotized is an answer that takes the blame off of Jenny herself. It's one of the things that alcoholics do. Just trust me on that. Though she wasn't actually hypnotized, Jenny hadn't had an easy life. Sure. Her situation was a result of her own decisions. But decisions are often influenced by past experiences. And Jenny's life had been rather traumatic.

[Lauren Kukla]

Jenny always had problems. She believed that she was worthless. She believed. I mean, she was raped and everything else. Her mom didn't take care of her. You know, like, our mom was on meds a lot, and she probably thought, you know, for some reason, I'm not being taken care of because, you know, my mom brought this horrible man into her life. You know what I mean? Like, she just. She just kept getting different kinds of thoughts about that. So.

[Detective]

When back to you told me the other day your. Your natural father was convicted of rape of Jennifer at work, at what age? Like how old? I think it was over a long period of time.

[Lauren Kukla]

I think from like 12 to 15.

[Detective]

12 to 15.

[Lauren Kukla]

She was molested from Joseph, her father's brother Robert. He's mentally impaired. And she told me that he molested her as well. Growing up, younger ages, that the neighbor at the residence that I live in now, one of the old neighbors that lived there, like their nephew or something, lost her as well. She was raped. Just, I mean, walking down the street kind of thing. She told me before my other sister, I remember she was raped. She got pulled into a van and raped. They had it pretty rough.

[Narrator]

Even after a childhood full of abuse, Jenny managed to pull something of a life together. She had full custody of her two young daughters, had a place for them to live, and worked as a manager for McDonald's. She wasn't addicted to hard drugs like her sister Lizzie, but alcoholism can be more difficult to beat because it's normalized in society. I mean, try going out, just going out on the weekend. Try to do something and not be around alcohol. It's impossible. Plus, you know, no one gives you a side eye if they see you sipping on a can of beer. How would they know it's your 12th drink? On the other hand, if you have a needle hanging out of your arm like a lot of the residents of Portland, someone might actually call the cops on you. Probably not a democrat, though. Anyways, Lauren, Jenny, and their posse of helpers arrived at the trailer and got to work.

[Detective]

So you guys wanted to get bottles the whole time the kids weren't here?

[Lauren Kukla]

No, the whole time the kids were at Al's house. And Jenny told me, go pick up some more beer from Al's and bring it back before you go to the store. And we went to Al's house, and I grabbed the beers and we had.

[Detective]

How many beers you grabbed?

[Lauren Kukla]

Seven or eight.

[Detective]

Okay. And how many of you guys were having some before that?

[Lauren Kukla]

I didn't have any. They didn't have any.

[Jennifer Kukla]

She.

[Lauren Kukla]

Al had said that she had some before, and I don't really know. And she had some at her house, too. And she drank a couple over cleaning for the first, like, hour and a half or whatnot. We went to return all the bottles that she had. I mean, she had some in her shed. She had them in her sink. She had them all over the house. So we were trying to clear the clutter, make some money for garbage bags, light bulbs, water, because her pipes were frozen, so we could, you know, heat it up or wash, whatever. And so we went to the store, we came back, and we just continued to clean, and we just.

[Detective]

You were still alone when you came back?

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah. Like I said, we had forgotten to bring her that beer. So she was really happy when we got back because she had her beer again. She's like, my mother has to make sure you get something. We brought her some more beer. And at that time, we just finished up cleaning. Jessica was getting lazy playing with the dogs or whatever. And then me and Russell were in the girls bedroom finishing out vacuuming and stuff. And then I went and did the bathroom myself and did the. Me and Russell did the back bedroom, and Jenny was doing the kitchen and the dishes and stuff, trying to get everything out of the kitchen.

[Narrator]

At this point, Jenny was becoming more paranoid with each beer. After the others left, Jenny confided in her sister that she feared they, too, would call CPS on her since they had seen the state of the house firsthand.

[Lauren Kukla]

Jessica might know, because I know Jenny was afraid that Jessica was going to call the CPS because of something that she said, which I don't know what she said. I have no idea. She's like. She's like, you know, they're gonna call. They're, you know, they probably think I'm, you know, a horrible mom and all this stuff. And I don't know.

[Investigator]

Jennifer was afraid Jessica was gonna call.

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah, she was afraid Russell and Jessa were gonna call, too. I said, why would they do that when they were here helping us, you know? And she was afraid they were gonna do something too. So I'm like.

[Investigator]

And they never did. They did either Russell or Jessica.

[Lauren Kukla]

Never.

[Investigator]

Man, what a mess. We better call cps.

[Lauren Kukla]

No. In fact, in the car when we were going to Elle's house, and I told her that she was afraid, she goes, she told me not to tell you guys, but I was like, you're not gonna call cvs, right? And Jessica's like, no, you know, I'm taking away from my mom too. You know, she's like, you know, I got taken away from my mom too, and you know, I would never do that to you. And, you know, I want to help these kids.

[Detective]

This was on the way to Rales.

[Lauren Kukla]

To pick up the girl. She was telling me this stuff. And Jenny had told me right before we left, like they were getting in the car and she was like, just make sure they don't call Lauren. And I think she was really fearful that they would call.

[Investigator]

So you guys left to go get the girls?

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah.

[Investigator]

And brought the girls back.

[Lauren Kukla]

We left to go get the girls and I helped them start getting ready. And all of a sudden, Jenny showed up.

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yeah.

[Investigator]

How'd she get there?

[Lauren Kukla]

She ran. She two streets away and she thought that's kind of weird to me because she thought we left a cell phone there. Which I asked her if that cell phone twice was hers. Cause I knew she lost hers, but I know she had a boost mobile. This was a Motorola. In fact, the phone is in my car right now. But I said, you know, I don't know where that phone came from. And she's like. I was like, I moved it. I put it on the end table like three times. Jenny, I even asked you if it was yours. And she's like, oh, okay. Yeah. But why would she run over there? It's possible I didn't turn it on or anything. It doesn't turn on, but I'm sure it works. But it just seems. It strikes me as odd that she would run all the way over there even though we were taking the kids back there. You know what I'm saying?

[Narrator]

So just to summarize all that, Lauren and the others left Jenny at the trailer while they went to pick up Jenny's two daughters, Alexa and Ashley. Jenny must have been suspicious that they were conspiring against her to help CPS take away the kids and literally ran several blocks to the house the girls were staying at under the guise of returning a cell phone.

[Lauren Kukla]

So I think that she was even fearful at that time that I would try to take the kids and. Which I don't understand, but whatever. So we. Jenny got in the back.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I have a.

[Lauren Kukla]

The third row seating station wagon. She got in the back with Lexa. And the first thing she said when she opened the back and I was already in the car and Ashley was in, I have a. Like a booster seat for her. This was big enough for my daughter and big enough for her. And she's like, lauren, why would you ask Luxa if she does. If she even liked me? I'm like, I didn't say that. And I was like, lexa, did you ask her that? Like, I was being calm with Lexing, like how you talk to kids, you know, and she's like, she's just quiet, you know, she didn't say anything. And then she's like, Jenny goes, are you lying, Alexa? And, you know, not angry. Not angry. She was more concerned for, you know, why she would lie to her. And I said, jenny, I didn't say that. And I said, I talked to him earlier this week when they were at my house. And I said that, you know, mama tries her boss, you know, and that was the end of the conversation. And we drove home, and the kids were just.

[Investigator]

What about? Did Lexa actually ask her?

[Lauren Kukla]

I wasn't. I mean, I got into the.

[Investigator]

There was never an answer to the question. Because you asked her.

[Lauren Kukla]

She never answered the question Jenny asked.

[Investigator]

Her, and Lexa never answered.

[Lauren Kukla]

She never answered the question. But I know she was quiet. And Lexa had tendency to do stuff like that, just kind of tattle or like, say, you know, mix up the words or something. And then Jenny would get not upset, but she would get like. Like, why.

[Jennifer Kukla]

Why you have to.

[Lauren Kukla]

You have to lie to me kind of thing, you know. And so we drove home, everything was fine, and we were, you know, I had the radio on, whatever, but she opened the door and she went in. And then the girls, you know, they went in right ahead of me. I don't know how we got mixed up, but anyway, I was like, no, stop. Because they weren't taking out their shoes and stuff. I was showing the door to take off their shoes and put their coats and stuff, you know, how nice. And they're like, wow. And they're looking around, they're all excited because the house is so much cleaner than it was before. Like, literally 300 times better, right? And I mean, even I probably weren't.

[Investigator]

Used to having a place to hang the coats and shoes.

[Lauren Kukla]

They weren't used to. And they yearn, so I don't want to cry, but they yearn so bad. They have that kind of home, that home. When they were at my house and stuff, they knew. They knew the difference. They were playing with my kids on Thursday night. They loved it. You know, I was teaching her how to wash from top to bottom in the bath kind of thing. You know, you. You have to rinse it all out. I was in there, you know, washing my. Brushing my Teeth and stuff. I was like, you gotta get ready for bed. You have to, you know, I was just thinking to my head, how does she not know this stuff at, you know, almost nine years old and she doesn't know how to take care of her own body.

[Investigator]

I guess we're not gone.

[Lauren Kukla]

Well, I mean that I know of the frozen pipes, but other than that.

[Narrator]

I mean, other than the frozen pipes. The group had successfully gotten the trailer up to par. Lauren thought she'd fixed the problem. Surely Jenny had no reason to be concerned anymore. Lauren went home that night to take care of her own household and planned to check in on Jenny and her kids the very next day, right after her shift at the local family restaurant. She expected to see Jenny lounging around enjoying the day with her girls in their newly cleaned trailer. Lauren certainly hadn't pictured herself dialing 911. 21 year old Lauren Kukler had just cleaned up another family crisis. One of her sisters, Lizzie, had already lost custody of her children. And her oldest sister Jennifer was about to meet the same fate. That was until Lauren rallied a group together to help Jennifer tidy up her house in preparation for a CPS visit. The next day, Sunday, February 4th, Lauren planned to drive over and check in on her sister. But she was wholly unprepared for what she'd find.

[Detective]

She worked. What time was it? 11 or 10.

[Lauren Kukla]

I worked from 10. I was there at 9:50 to all the way to 5:00. 5:15.

[Narrator]

After work, Lauren picked up her kids and drove over to Jenny's trailer to check in. When she got there, the front door was hanging open. This immediately struck Lauren as odd. After all, it was winter in Michigan.

[Lauren Kukla]

I pulled up, I walked up, you know, I called the name because the door was open like it said.

[Investigator]

So you called her name?

[Lauren Kukla]

I called her name and I was on the phone with my friend Jason at the time telling them all about how, you know, how my sister was being annoying or whatever, you know, and how she's pissing me off. So I'm going over there right now to see if she can find her phone in my car or whatever. And he's like, I'm like, okay, hold on one second. Cause the door's open and all the lights are off. He's like, okay. And then I call her name. And then he was, I was like, okay. Anyway, I'll, you know, I'll call you later. I hung out with him. And then Jenny comes to the door dressed like a hobo and like in a skirt, jeans and sweaters. And whatever. I don't know. I don't even know exactly what her tops were, but I know jeans and a khaki skirt were on the bottom. And just thinking that was really weird. And so that's how my mom used to dress sometimes when she was being stupid.

[Narrator]

What Lauren meant by when she was being stupid is that her mother used to layer odd, unmatching pieces of clothing during bad mental health episodes. Increasingly, Jenny was starting to act more and more like her mother. She would ramble on about nonsensical things, have bouts of extreme paranoia, and just, you know, act erratic. Now Lauren could see a visual representation of the transformation that had been taking place for years as Jenny's mental health quietly declined. She had a khaki shirt layered over a pair of jeans. Her hair was disheveled, and like Lauren said, she looked like a homeless person.

[Lauren Kukla]

Anyway, so I go out to the door.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I left the kids in the car.

[Lauren Kukla]

You know, I'm planning on just stopping at the door saying, you know, let's go out to eat or whatever. I did pretty good at work. I was going to say, let's find your phone and do whatever we got to do. Today I noticed first thing that the dogs didn't run up to me or run outside or where the hell were the dogs? I know. I know the door was open, but usually they're within visual. You know, I don't know where they are. So I didn't hear any barking. And I go, where are the girls? Because usually they at least have a TV on or something with the radio on.

[Investigator]

She said, you ear out it.

[Lauren Kukla]

I was in the door, literally in the doorway.

[Jennifer Kukla]

And so you stood in the door.

[Investigator]

You didn't actually go in? Yeah, I stood kind of like leaning in, maybe.

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah. And then she said, can I have a cigarette? And that's when I took my first step into the door, you know, into the actual house.

[Investigator]

You give her a cigarette.

[Lauren Kukla]

You asked for a cigarette. And then I noticed it was too quiet. I said, where I kids? And she said, she's standing back towards the kitchen table where we were sitting the night before there in the corner. And she said, I killed him. And I said, no. She said, I'm going to the. All I said was no, pretty much. I mean, I don't remember if I said anything else, but I just said, no. And not like, no, like no, you know, like, it was like, no, you know, and she said, I'm going to the deep ends of hell. And she said, it's all over now, and it's done. And that was. She wasn't looking at me. She was looking at the ground. And it was clay's face again. And it was monotone voice, too. And it is done like that. Like, it is done. And she goes, I'm going. And she looked up, and she goes, you have to call the police on me, Lauren. And I said, okay. I said, but show me how you tried to kill yourself. And soon as she showed me the wrist, I had already backed up enough to where I was almost out the door at the doorway again. And she showed it to me. And I was on the porch by that. Like, I took another step back, and I was on the porch or the deck or whatever, and I was starting to go, okay, Jen, you stay here. Keep calm. And that's when. I mean, I was like, you know, it never won. Yeah.

[Narrator]

Before her police interview, investigators hoped that allowing Lauren to listen to her own 911 call over again would jog her memory and help them piece together what was going through Jenny's mind.

[Lauren Kukla]

I mean, if you could listen to it right now. I was really calm in the beginning because I still. Outside of the car when I called, and Jenny was like, are you calling? And I said I wanted to say no, because I didn't know. I was fearful for my kids in the car and for myself. But I was walking around to get the address from the car.

[Investigator]

Were you, like, in the driveway or down the street?

[Lauren Kukla]

I walked around the back of the car because I'm thinking, I'm looking in the car after, because she showed me a wrist. I'm looking in the car for anything that I could grab out. You know what I'm saying? If she comes after me, I don't know. And then I walk up, she anything in her hands?

[Investigator]

No knife or nothing like that.

[Lauren Kukla]

I think she may have been smoking a cigarette because I gave her one, but I gave her the lighter to use, and she gave it back to me. But I'm walking around the back of the car, standing behind the station wagon, thinking, that's the safest place if I have to run, because I know my car is locked and I have the keys in my pocket. So I'm standing back there, and I'm saying, yes, Jennifer, I'm calling, you know, whatever. I started on a dispatch. I told them, you know, I don't know what's going on. I know. And then they're like, ma'am, you have to. You know, I have to tell us. And I'm thinking, you know, what is there to tell us? I couldn't even fathom what am I supposed to say, you know? And I remember telling them that, yeah, she harmed herself and she said that she killed her kids.

[Narrator]

When police arrived at the scene and entered the trailer, they found Jenny pacing around, ready to be taken to the, quote, depths of hell. Their eyes were quickly drawn to the first bloody scene. Three dead dogs piled up inside a crate. Jenny hadn't stopped there. She even stabbed the pet mouse inside its cage. As officers made their way to the back bedroom, they could see that tragically, Jenny was telling the truth about her kids. 8 year old Alexa laid motionless on a makeshift bed next to her five year old sister, Ashley. Their throats had been cut.

[Investigator]

Jennifer, you know Mark, right? Been talking to him. Like I said, I'm Dave. We both work here for the sheriff's office. Okay? We want to talk to you about what's going on. Okay? Before we do that, can you look at me while we're talking, pull your hair out of your face so I can see it. There you go. Look at me.

[Lauren Kukla]

There you go.

[Investigator]

Before we do that, hey, maintain eye contact with me, okay? Before we do that, we have to read you your rights, okay? You know what those are? You've heard about them, you've seen them on tv, all right? I'm gonna read them to you, okay? Exactly as they are on the list here, all right? And then we're done. I'd like you to sign them, okay? And then we can talk. We can't talk until we do that, all right? Are you cold?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't wanna talk about it.

[Investigator]

Are you just nervous?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't wanna talk about it. I don't wanna think about it.

[Investigator]

Okay? Let me just read you your rights here, okay? You have the right to remain silent. First of all, Jennifer, okay? Take a deep breath, okay? Get a hold of yourself, all right? Get a hold of yourself right now. You're upset and you have every right to be, okay? We have to go through this, all right? Okay. You understand all those.

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yes.

[Investigator]

Okay, and then the last question is.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I want to talk about it.

[Investigator]

Oh, babe, let me finish this. Sir, I really. Statements of my rights. I understand what my rights are. I'm willing to make a statement, answer questions. I do not want a lawyer at this time. I understand and know what I'm doing. No promises or threats been made to me. No pressure or coercion of any kind of been used against me, okay? Do you understand that? Okay. All that. Knowing all that, you want to talk to us right now?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to think about it.

[Investigator]

Okay? Okay.

[Detective]

Jennifer, is it because you want to talk to an attorney or is it.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't even want to think about it.

[Detective]

We just want to get a couple things straight to make sure we got everything. We got everything right? Okay? So we don't want to get anything wrong.

[Lauren Kukla]

Okay?

[Detective]

If you want to talk to an attorney, that's one thing. But if you just. If you're just a little nervous about it, maybe you can work that out. You were very cooperative during the forensic exam, which we really appreciate. Nurses were very pleased with that.

[Investigator]

Are you cold?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Well, I just don't want to talk about it.

[Investigator]

You want a blanket?

[Lauren Kukla]

No.

[Detective]

Get you a blanket or, you know, make a circle. Froze.

[Lauren Kukla]

Okay.

[Jennifer Kukla]

You erase my brain, if you erase my memory, then I'll definitely love you for that one.

[Investigator]

Okay, sit tight here for a minute.

[Narrator]

In case you couldn't understand her at the end, she said, erase my brain, erase my memory. And I'd love you for that one. We can only imagine what's in there.

[Detective]

Do you understand what we're trying to do here? You know, like I said, if you want an attorney or something like that, I can understand. But just try to settle down. I'm just talking to you. We just want to make sure we got things right. We want to make sure we get them understood. We don't want to make any mistakes. That's why we want to talk to you. I don't want to coerce you. I don't want to talk you into talking. If you. If you want to talk to attorney. But if you're just a little nervous, we can wait. We can get you some water. You know, just have you relax a little bit. Okay. Get your blanket. It is cold in there. I'm even cold in there.

[Narrator]

It's clear that these guys were getting nervous that Jenny May decide not to talk. So they started to employ a little bit of good cop, bad cop. Just before the one detective was able to follow through on his promise of some water and a blanket, the other came bursting back into the room.

[Detective]

What do you think about that? Wanna sit and think about it with a little bit of water and a blanket?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Maybe some water.

[Detective]

Okay, well, I'll get you some water.

[Investigator]

All right? You don't wanna talk to us? Is that right? Do you not wanna talk to us?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't wanna really talk about it.

[Lauren Kukla]

You can ask something.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I can see if I can answer it with.

[Lauren Kukla]

I don't. I can't promise.

[Investigator]

Okay, Stand up then.

[Narrator]

They took her back to her cell and planned to try again the next day.

[Detective]

Let me just reiterate. Yesterday you said you didn't want to talk to us because you just weren't up to us. Today you want to talk to us.

[Jennifer Kukla]

Jennifer.

[Detective]

Today you do want to talk to us without a lawyer present?

[Investigator]

Yes.

[Detective]

Married, you say? It doesn't matter. That means you want to talk to us. Okay.

[Jennifer Kukla]

Gave me the broken pair.

[Investigator]

Yeah.

[Detective]

This one come off? Try this one first.

[Investigator]

Jennifer, do you take any kind of medication normally?

[Jennifer Kukla]

No.

[Lauren Kukla]

At all?

[Investigator]

Nothing?

[Jennifer Kukla]

No.

[Investigator]

Okay. Nothing for any type of psychiatric or nothing for any type of physical?

[Lauren Kukla]

No.

[Narrator]

Once Jennifer really starts to open up to detectives in this interview, it's clear that she absolutely needed to be on psychiatric medicine. It's not often that we gain access to police interviews of defendants suffering from severe mental illness, but Jennifer's case is unique. We'll get back to that later.

[Detective]

Well, what do you want to know?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't know.

[Investigator]

Well, we know why we're here, right?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yeah.

[Investigator]

Okay. We know what happened. You know what happened, Right? The big question is why? And that's why.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't know. I. I really don't know. It's like the night before or two nights before that, or whatever, I just stayed all night long. I kept it. Every time I close my eyes, I keep having these, like, bad dreams or, like, dead people or whatever and blah, blah. And I'm like, well, what the hell? This is just weird.

[Investigator]

So.

[Jennifer Kukla]

So I didn't even think about that.

[Investigator]

Does this happen to you frequently? That you dream about dead people or.

[Jennifer Kukla]

No, never. I watch freaking scary movies. None of that shit scares me.

[Investigator]

First time you've ever had this type of thing? Okay.

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yeah. I mean, hell, my kid, we used to watch the sci fi all the time. But anyway, so I was up all night for that. No big deal. Woke up next day, no big deal, no problems, nothing.

[Investigator]

Would that have been. What day would that have been?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't remember. I don't even know what day it is right now.

[Investigator]

Today's Monday.

[Jennifer Kukla]

When did I get here?

[Investigator]

Yesterday was Sunday.

[Jennifer Kukla]

Okay. So this would have been Saturday morning. Everything was fine. And then all of a sudden, my sister was there. My sister Lauren, she's the one who called you guys, right? She was at my house, and all of a sudden I just. It was like. I just kept freaking hearing this, like, voice in my head telling me all this. She's like, jenny, stop talking to. Stop listening to the voice or whatever the hell you're doing. Stop doing it.

[Investigator]

How did she know you were listening the voice?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I was telling her what it was saying. Is it?

[Investigator]

No, it was Saturday morning.

[Jennifer Kukla]

No, if I got here Sunday, it would have been Saturday afternoon.

[Narrator]

Now keep in mind, the average person would probably freak out upon hearing their sibling talking to themselves as if they're having a conversation. But for Lauren, this was nothing new. She was no stranger to brushing off the nonsensical ramblings. She even said to Jenny, stop talking to those voices or whatever it is that you're doing. In Lauren's sane mind, addressing her older sister's mental illness was at the bottom of the list of priorities. When Jenny's pipes froze and the trailer descended into chaos, Lauren's first concern was the safety of her nieces. Basically, she thought, okay, Jenny isn't a danger to herself or them. She's made it this far in life. Let's just deal with the issues that we can fix right now. Which, you know, makes a lot of sense.

[Investigator]

And what did you guys do? Were you guys picking things up around the house?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yeah, they were helping me clean up.

[Lauren Kukla]

My house and shit.

[Jennifer Kukla]

Okay, I'll admit I've been drinking way too much in my house with a sag.

[Detective]

What were you guys cleaning it for?

[Jennifer Kukla]

She said, I was afraid she was gonna get called, I was gonna lose my kids. The house was that bad. I mean, it had to be cleaned up. So they came over to help me clean it up and friggin I was gonna. My sister paid them 10 bucks a piece to help me that day and I was gonna pay her back the money, so I was broke.

[Investigator]

Were you drinking when they were there?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I had a couple of beers when they were there.

[Investigator]

How often do you drink? You said you've been drinking a lot lately and how much?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Like every day, maybe about like a 12 pack a day. But I was cutting, I was trying. No, between a six to a 12 pack, that okay. Usually by natural iced beer or whatever, but shoot, they were helping. They came over and they were helping out. That and I just started freaking out. And then after they left is when freaking I started actually.

[Investigator]

Do you hear voices when you drink?

[Jennifer Kukla]

No. I don't think I've ever had that happen to me ever in my entire life. It was just like somebody's freaking right in my head and it wasn't even like hearing, hearing voices. I could hear it and it was like I was reading it at the same time, if that makes any sense. It wasn't weird. Go to this part of the house, go to that part of the house. Go to this part of the house, go to that part of the house. It was like all nice and sweet at first and then freaking it started getting freaking weird and then it just freaking got evil. It freaking, it's even telling me. And then I freaking started listening to it, I guess because then I freaking started taking the. It started saying something about freaking people being outside ready to come in and kill us and all this weird and that. Freaking I'd have to do this or that if I don't want my kids to die, do this or that. Then freaking after like probably about half an hour, hour of that, finally freaking it told me to get my kids all ready and take them down the street to their friend's house so that they wouldn't die that night. And then halfway there and said take them back home because they are, they're already killed at that house.

[Investigator]

Did you actually take them down the street?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yeah, I did.

[Narrator]

All of what Jenny is recounting to police that happened after her sister Lauren left that night.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I'm still confused. I'm still just like figuring this out. It was like, what the hell man? What did I do? I actually freaking did that. Oh, it gets weirder. This gets really weirder. Friggin that all that happens and then okay, fine, get back in the house. I'm like, well what the hell? You know, this is just.

[Detective]

Why did you turn back?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Kids voices told me to whatever boys told me to and friggin not to go down there because they were already dead, blah blah blah. They told me to go back to the house and said, well shake in the morning because then you'll find out they're not dead. But don't go over there now. And then blah blah. And back and forth and back and forth and kept saying stuff about how people would come over in there and kill me and I'd never know it when they finally broke in the house.

[Investigator]

So you return to the house with the girls because the voice tells you.

[Jennifer Kukla]

And it went back and forth and then it got nicer again and it was like, well, you have to do this and you have to do that. You know this for your girls, to make them nice and happy, you gotta take care of your kids and blah blah blah. And then it started getting evil again.

[Investigator]

Were you gonna put the girls to bed?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yes, I did.

[Investigator]

Were they sleeping on the floor?

[Jennifer Kukla]

So we were gonna all sleep together on the bed. Cause it was like, well whatever, whatever. And this voice is telling me all this weird shit. So we're. Cause we haven't done this in years. Because I usually sleep by the couch. Then we were gonna freaking sleep on the bed. So freaking we made up the bed on the floor in the girls room. And freaking we were gonna lay down. I actually lay down in the middle of them. Lexa was on this side of me and I had my arm around her and I was rubbing her head and Ashlyn was on this side. And that was the same thing with her. And we were going to sleep like that. We were all like, oh, I love you, have good dreams, blah blah blah, and blah blah blah. And it was all good like that. And then freaking I got up and the boys started talking to me again and freaking telling me, were the girls.

[Investigator]

Asleep at that point when you got up?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yeah.

[Investigator]

Okay.

[Jennifer Kukla]

And friggin I actually went in the fire and I had the butcher knife up to my neck. And I didn't do that. And then friggin the voice is telling me to do this and that. And then it's telling me to go kill my kid before the people break into my house to kill them and hurt him even worse than what they were going, what would have happened? Or whatever. Just kill them so that it doesn't happen. And I wasn't gonna do that. I was just sitting there going, listening with the freaking knife in my hand going, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. If anybody walks in here, fuck. Motherfucker.

[Narrator]

So the voices in Jennifer's head were apparently telling her that if she didn't kill her kids, people would break into her house, take them away from her, and they'd suffer a fate far worse than death, whatever that is. At this point, she had long stopped drinking beers, hoping sobriety would make all of this go away. But it wasn't working. At first, Jennifer refused to give in to the voices and follow through with the murders. Instead, she put the butcher knife she grabbed from the kitchen up to her own throat and considered killing herself. After deciding against that, she went and sat in the front room, still clutching the knife and waited for people to arrive. If the voices were right and someone did break in, she'd be ready to defend her family. Some time passed and obviously nothing happened. The voices were gone too. So thinking the whole ordeal was over, she went back and laid in bed with her girls, eventually falling asleep until morning.

[Detective]

Yeah, go Back to at 7:30, you woke them up, put their coat and shoes on.

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yeah, then we were gonna go leave and freaking go somewhere. They're like, no, freaking, we can't leave or whatever. Blah, blah blah.

[Lauren Kukla]

Where are you gonna go?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Do you Think across the street to the payphone to call my dad for some reason.

[Investigator]

Okay.

[Jennifer Kukla]

To try to have him come pick us up. Cause I was like freaking so scared. And then we. I don't even know if we even went outside. I don't remember before we turned back in and freaking didn't. And then it was like nothing was happening. Then all of a sudden I just freaking grabbed a knife and did it.

[Investigator]

All right, when that happened, where did you get the knife from?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I think it was in the kitchen.

[Investigator]

And how did the girls get back in the bedroom? Did you tell them to go back?

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah.

[Investigator]

And they went back in the bedroom.

[Jennifer Kukla]

And they were scared.

[Investigator]

I know. And who, who, who, who went first?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Alexa, Your younger one.

[Lauren Kukla]

And what bigger one?

[Investigator]

The bigger one.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I'm sorry, I had to chase Ashley. I follow Ashley. I thought.

[Lauren Kukla]

Freaking.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I could have sweared. I thought I was like, telling Lex, I love you, you know, you'll never be hurt, blah, blah, blah, won't let that happen to you. And then she's like, can Ashley? And I was like, okay. And then I walked out of the freaking bedroom. And I can't even believe Lexa said that. I don't believe actually said it. Yeah, I. I don't believe that. I. I must have heard that in my fucking head.

[Lauren Kukla]

There's no.

[Investigator]

Did we actually run from the room?

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Kukla]

She was in the sleep, hiding under the kitchen table.

[Narrator]

This was clearly difficult for Jennifer, talking about what she did to her own two little girls. You can hear in the audio that she seems to show some remorse, but her train of thought keeps getting redirected away from the worst parts of that morning.

[Investigator]

Did you bring Ashley back in the bedroom next to Alexa?

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah.

[Investigator]

Is that where she died? Is that where it happened?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I think. Yeah. I don't think Ashley died until the bedroom.

[Investigator]

Did you?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Because it was in the kitchen interior.

[Investigator]

Back in the bedroom?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yes, but she was. I thought she was there in the kitchen, but I don't think she was. I. I don't think she died. So she got back in the bedroom.

[Investigator]

Did you actually stab her in the kitchen?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yes.

[Investigator]

And, and how did you stab her? Where was she at? Was she on the floor? On the ground? On her back? Was she standing up?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't remember.

[Investigator]

Did you stab.

[Jennifer Kukla]

Maybe I didn't do it in the kitchen then. I don't know.

[Investigator]

Okay, but did you. You took her back to the bedroom at some point? Was she fighting you?

[Jennifer Kukla]

No. I don't know. I don't think so. She probably was. I would have been fucked.

[Investigator]

You Laid her next to Alexa.

[Lauren Kukla]

Mm.

[Detective]

Was Alexa already dead at this point?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yeah.

[Investigator]

And when you laid Ashley, was she dead when you laid her next to Alexa, or did you lay her down then?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I lay her down. I think I made sure she was dead. I don't know.

[Detective]

When you say you made sure she was dead, what did you do?

[Jennifer Kukla]

See if there's pulse.

[Investigator]

Can you show me how. Can you put the cup down for a second? Show me what hand you held the knife in and show me how you actually. What motion you did.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't know. Just like that, I think.

[Lauren Kukla]

I don't.

[Investigator]

So you're holding your hand up like this and coming down with a knife. You hold the knife like this or like this?

[Narrator]

In the footage, the detective shows two different stabbing motions. The first one he demonstrates is an overhead downward motion while the other is an underhanded swiping upwards.

[Investigator]

Were the voices still talking to you when you were doing this?

[Jennifer Kukla]

We were doing this all day long. I wouldn't freaking leave my house after I did it. I actually thought I saved them. And then I started looking around the house and freaking everything the voices told me the night before. And the voices were actually even telling me, I think, that freaking they were gonna drive me crazy. So I killed my kids by the morning time. And I was like, no. At one point, I think, all right, so I don't remember everything sometimes.

[Investigator]

It was sometime shortly after 7:30 yesterday morning. When the girls died, right?

[Lauren Kukla]

Yep.

[Investigator]

Okay.

[Lauren Kukla]

And then.

[Investigator]

And then how long after that did the dogs die, you recall?

[Lauren Kukla]

Not long.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I was walking around the house and I kept thinking about freaking weird shit about I was going to go burn in hell now and demons were gonna come pick me up from the front of my house in a freaking red car with fingers and toenails and freaking seat covers and shit.

[Lauren Kukla]

I don't know.

[Jennifer Kukla]

It was freaky. And all of a sudden I was like, the dogs are still alive. Freaking I'm tortured to death when they drive me down into hell. I gotta kill the animals.

[Detective]

Kill the animals. How'd you do that? Water for you too.

[Jennifer Kukla]

They stuck the knife in it and just went down and make sure they were dead.

[Detective]

Were they on the ground? Were you holding them?

[Jennifer Kukla]

They were in the green blanket. But angel, the big mop, actually got away and ran into the kitchen. I had to chase her down a free bed. And I told them it was for their own good.

[Detective]

And you put on a blanket?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I threw them in the cage.

[Detective]

Okay. And then what are the little ones called?

[Jennifer Kukla]

The puppies. They were Jasmine and what was the other one? Sam.

[Detective]

And they were the offspring of Angel. That was their mom. What kind of dogs are they?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't know. She was full Pomeranian and I don't know what dad was. She just got pregnant.

[Detective]

Okay. And then what about that mouse in the fat mouse?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I had to kill the mouse too.

[Detective]

How did you do that?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I think I broke it's neck or something.

[Detective]

Did you try to stab it?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Probably.

[Narrator]

Jennifer had killed every living being in her small trailer. Her two defenseless girls, three tiny Pomeranians, two of them puppies, and even the pet mouse. And it wasn't just the dog she had to chase down to finish the job. Despite their youngest age, her two daughters knew exactly what was going to happen and they tried to get away. There's nothing I can say to prepare you for this next part. It is absolutely heartbreaking.

[Investigator]

Just to go back, just so I can clarify. Alexa was killed in her bedroom. Was she killed right where we found her? On the floor on that little makeshift bed that you guys were sleeping on. Okay. And then when, while Alexa was being killed, Ashley ran out of the room and she ran into the kitchen under.

[Jennifer Kukla]

The table, and she was hiding her on the table, and I pulled her out.

[Investigator]

And did you. Did you stab her under the table at all?

[Lauren Kukla]

Did you try to like, like say.

[Investigator]

Come out, come out or. Or how did you get her out from under the table?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Just grabbed her arm and pulled her out.

[Investigator]

I think you grabbed her arm and pulled her out because there's a little bit of blood under the table. So we're wondering, did she get stabbed or there at all?

[Jennifer Kukla]

She got stabbed in the bedroom first. And Alexa pushed me out, pushed her.

[Investigator]

Out of the way.

[Jennifer Kukla]

And then I did date to la.

[Investigator]

So Ashley.

[Jennifer Kukla]

Ashley was already bleeding.

[Investigator]

Okay, so Ashley was bleeding. That's why there's a bit of water on the table. Okay. So then once you get Ashley from underneath the table, you carry her back to the bedroom and. And you lay. Did she fight more? Did you?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yes.

[Investigator]

Okay. And did you lay her down?

[Lauren Kukla]

Mm.

[Investigator]

Right next to Alexa. And that's where she died?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yes.

[Investigator]

Okay, and did she try to get back up and run again?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yes.

[Lauren Kukla]

Okay. All right.

[Narrator]

Throughout this part of the interview, Jennifer, with a blanket over her shoulders, is using it to cover her face. She's hunched over in her chair, rocking back.

[Investigator]

And fourth, did she say anything to you? Jennifer, I know this is hard. Did you recall her standing there?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Mommy, don't.

[Investigator]

Okay. Was she crying?

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah.

[Investigator]

Was she saying what was she saying?

[Jennifer Kukla]

No, no, Mama, don't Do it, Mama. She was scared as fuck.

[Lauren Kukla]

Okay. All right.

[Investigator]

Okay. And how many times do you think you stabbed her?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I have no idea. I don't want to know.

[Investigator]

Okay. Do you remember how many times you stabbed Ashley?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't know.

[Investigator]

I'm sorry, Alexa.

[Jennifer Kukla]

No, I don't want to know that either.

[Lauren Kukla]

Okay.

[Investigator]

Do you remember when Ashley was stabbed? The first time she ran out of the room, where was she stabbed?

[Jennifer Kukla]

In the neck.

[Investigator]

In the neck? Was it a deep wound or was it just kind of. Did you kind of nick her?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't know.

[Narrator]

Jennifer had used four different large kitchen knives to slay everyone in the trailer that morning. She ended her daughters lives by stabbing them each multiple times in the neck area, effectively severing their windpipes as well as important arteries. Besides the neck wounds though, there were no defensive injuries. These poor little girls couldn't even begin to fight off their mother. All they could do was run and try to find a hiding spot. But even then, Jennifer chased them down.

[Investigator]

Have you used narcotics in the past? Like long in your history, did you use any kind of drugs?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Nothing. Long term abuse of anything.

[Investigator]

Well, what did you use?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I've smoked pot a few times. I've done acid a few times.

[Investigator]

Did acid? How long ago did you do acid?

[Jennifer Kukla]

When I was a teenager.

[Investigator]

Okay, but recently have you been using any kind of street drugs?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Nothing whatsoever.

[Investigator]

Any kind of prescription drugs?

[Lauren Kukla]

No.

[Investigator]

Okay, and have you ever seen anybody about any kind of problems in your head? Ever talk to anybody about it? Go see a doctor or.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I had a couple shrinks when I was a kid, but that's cause I was getting molested and stuff. My mom always stopped taking me and shit.

[Investigator]

Okay.

[Detective]

Did your mom have some problems?

[Lauren Kukla]

My mom.

[Jennifer Kukla]

Oh God. My mom's a paranoid schizophrenic, manic depressant.

[Narrator]

Through interviewing both Jennifer and her sister Lauren, detectives were beginning to put the pieces together. Jennifer had been on a slow path to mental ruin. She had self awareness and she knew she was displaying many of the same odd behaviors her mother had shown as her mental health declined. This wasn't her first rodeo. Jennifer knew how these things eroded. She felt herself losing grip on reality. And she had been desperately trying to hide it. 21 year old Lauren Kukla loved her family. Her biggest concern was making sure all of the children were safe, well fed and loved. To make this kind of life a reality. For her two nieces, 8 year old Alexa and 5 year old Ashley, this often meant cleaning up her sister's messes. Her oldest sister Jennifer was A functioning alcoholic with constant money problems. And so those are the issues Lauren often helped to address. These surface issues paled in comparison to the turmoil happening in Jennifer's mind. The Kukla family was no stranger to mental illness, which somewhat blinded Lauren to her sister's worsening mental state. At the same time, Jennifer was trying to hide her mental illness. She often became nervous after saying what she perceived to be the wrong thing, which was basically anything that might indicate she was losing her mind. Lauren was so concerned with these surface level issues that Jennifer's feeble attempts to hide what was actually going on worked. Things got quietly worse until February 4, 2007, when Jennifer murdered her two little girls. Apparently, Jennifer's paranoia and hallucinations reached a peak that weekend. She told psychiatrists that voices were telling her that if she didn't kill her children, they'd be kidnapped, sexually abused, tortured, murdered, and then eaten. In her distorted mind, Jennifer. Jennifer thought slitting their throats and ending it all quickly was an act of compassion. It was, from her perspective, the only way she could save them.

[Detective]

Have you heard from the voices since this happened?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Well, like, morning after it happened, I stayed in the house and I was like, I couldn't leave. It was like I was sitting there waiting for somebody to come pick me up to take me straight to hell. It was like, no big deal. It was like, it was normal.

[Investigator]

So were you there all day then?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I was there all day.

[Investigator]

Did you leave at any point?

[Jennifer Kukla]

No. So go to my car to get to your butts. I'd go right back in.

[Lauren Kukla]

Out.

[Jennifer Kukla]

That was it.

[Detective]

Was your door left open all day?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Yes. I was afraid to shut it.

[Investigator]

Why?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't know. It was like freaking. If I shut it, then the freaking demons would come faster or some crap.

[Detective]

Did you get cold?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Mm.

[Detective]

Where were you at during the day?

[Jennifer Kukla]

Mostly sitting on the couch, I think.

[Detective]

Did you go back in the bedroom at all and they.

[Jennifer Kukla]

A couple times, but I couldn't stay back there.

[Detective]

What'd you do back there?

[Investigator]

Which bedroom did you go to your bedroom or the girls?

[Lauren Kukla]

Girls.

[Jennifer Kukla]

Oh, and I went back in the bathroom and had to change my clothes and freaking get all cleaned up for some fucked up reason.

[Detective]

How'd you get cleaned up? Was that your water wasn't running, like.

[Jennifer Kukla]

The water, like out of the toilet? You know the tank? Yeah, it was. Fuck, I don't know.

[Detective]

Okay, when you say you got changed, what were you wearing that night and then Warm?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I don't remember. Yeah, that's my sister.

[Narrator]

So after killing her children and all of the pets, Jennifer stayed in the house with their dead bodies all day. She paced around until the voices apparently told her to clean it up with no running water, Though she decided to take the lid off the toilet tank and use the water in there to rinse off before replacing her bloodied clothes with random things scavenged from piles of laundry. When Lauren came upon the carnage and saw her sister dressed like a hobo, she suddenly realized what had been happening this whole time. At that moment, Lauren didn't see her sister. She saw her mother. Jennifer had become the splitting image of her mother.

[Investigator]

So her reactions didn't. That day, that day and that evening didn't surprise me because you'd been. Your mom had acted similar to that.

[Lauren Kukla]

I mean it was, it was surprising, but it was more interesting because when my mom would do. I mean she wouldn't do stuff exactly like that. She never told me. She would just tell me about it happening, right? I mean, because my mom used to say. I remember her telling me, Jenny telling me one time that she. My mom pulled over the car right over on Romeo Plank near Speedway and she said, I'm drowning this in our. In my piss, you know, and she pulled her pants down and she was going to drown herself. And the mom was. Multiple suicide attempts, you know what I'm saying? Not in front of me, but Jenny said, you guys are lucky you never had it as bad as we did. I guess she chased Lizzie around the backyard with a butcher knife one time. And like all this stuff, I don't know, I don't remember. Too young I guess. Or I shut it out. I have no idea. But she would tell me stuff about make Keith Richards and when we lost our house, how Keith Richards was going to buy it and she. She was going to get married to him. She told me about this guy who was like a healer and like, you know, like just work. He lost the house. My grandma was sick of paying for it.

[Detective]

When did your, your dad go to prison?

[Lauren Kukla]

I was seven, 14 years ago.

[Detective]

He's still in prison for that?

[Investigator]

No.

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah, three years.

[Investigator]

That was your natural father.

[Detective]

Well, I'm. I thought you said the other day that he was still in prison.

[Lauren Kukla]

I wish.

[Detective]

When's the last time you had contact with him?

[Lauren Kukla]

He called me that night, Sunday night after he heard. He lives, right. Me and my husband are separated, like I said. And he lives three condos away from my husband's mom.

[Detective]

My mother in law.

[Narrator]

Looking back at all the strange things Jennifer had said and done made so much more sense when compared to her mother's decline. But hindsight is 20 20. Let's rewind back to when Jennifer became paranoid that the two people who helped clean up her trailer were going to call CPS and turn her in.

[Lauren Kukla]

She said, I mean all she was. She talked, I guess briefly to this Jessica girl about how she liked Dean Coombs books and stuff like that. Different kinds of like horrors, suspense, stuff like that. And she said that later in the night she said that she. She didn't. She wishes she didn't say that because she probably. Those girls probably think. Or that guy. That girl probably thinks that she's nuts for liking those kinds of books. I mean that's. I don't know if that means anything, but she just said she's like, tell them that, you know, I just like to read those kind of books, you know, they interest me, blah, blah. And then she said to me that she's starting not to remember, but starting to understand why she was drinking, why she would have had a drinking problem.

[Detective]

She told you that?

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah, she said she understands why she has a drinking problem.

[Narrator]

For us, the people on the outside, it's not at all surprising that Jennifer suffered from addiction. But in Jennifer's mind, this all stemmed from her hypnosis as a teenager.

[Lauren Kukla]

But it's in some way hell of high, in some way connected to the hypnotism.

[Detective]

What does she think? Hypnotism?

[Lauren Kukla]

She didn't disclose that information to me. She said that she told Al that she knew biker crews with like vigilantes or something, you know. She didn't say vigilantes, but that's the only name of biker crew I've ever heard in her life. So by stuff like that that she was affiliating with them. She said that Jim Reel, which I know was a boss at Dijinko and was also the owner or part owner of TJ's where she worked at a golf course for a couple years, summer and stuff like that. She said that he. She wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if she. If she would go there and if she was actually doing the work that, you know, that they. She told me she was like a bartender and a cook and stuff like that. She doesn't remember actually doing it. She's thinking that she was brainwashed, thinking she was doing that kind of work when really she was doing something else. She says that that was like a lapse in her brain. She doesn't understand what happened at that time in her life. She asked me if I remembered her.

[Detective]

This was All Saturday night.

[Investigator]

Okay?

[Lauren Kukla]

She said, I think, Lauren, that I used to kill people. And I said. I literally wrote it off as her just being either drunk or me not recognizing it as an issue. Like, she was saying it almost. Not in a joking manner, but not to where it's like, lauren, I think I used to kill people. You need to, you know, help me or something. You know, I think I used to kill people. I'm like, jenny, you know, what are you. Where are you getting this from? And she's like, I don't know. I just. I. She's like, I don't understand. I don't remember. I don't remember. And then she said. She said, like, I don't remember that, like, three times, you know, in a row. And then she said, I think I ate them. And I said, jenny, you know, And I remember growing up, like, she used to have, like. I know it sounds stupid, but she used to do, like, candle things in her room. And, like, she'd walk around the can, like. You know what I'm saying? Like, weird shit like that.

[Investigator]

Like, seance almost type things.

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah, like a seance or like a demonic something or other. But, I mean, she. At that time, I know that she had had some experiences with drugs. I don't know what. Cause I was nine years younger, but I know. I mean, my mom busted pot in the house. She found plants and she threw them against the wall because they were all in the basement. The kids, me and my older. My Lizzie shared a room upstairs for a while. And then when my dad started raping the kids, like right before Jenny turned, like 10 or something. 12, I don't know. He made the bedrooms downstairs for them, so it was almost like their whole, like. I mean, they were. They weren't finished. There was tile on the floor, but it was like they were drywall and stuff like that. They had separate rooms. And Lizzie was in this room. Joey was in the middle. And then Jenny was at the far end. And she used to come and sneak boys in and stuff like that. And they do. I mean, Matt Vestage, the one that Lizzie is Lizzie's fiance now. I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever. I didn't know. And I wouldn't tell my mom because they would tell me to shut up. And they tell me not to come downstairs all the time because there was. There was stuff under. I think they were trying to keep me away from whatever they were doing. There was stuff under the stairs. There was big spiders. There was ghosts, whatever. You know what I'm saying. And I literally. I really believe that they. Even if they weren't brainwashed, that they had done something to themselves, you know what I mean? To where they thought that this was real, you know, or at least maybe she lived with that. She used to cut. Like, she. I remember one time she cut Slayer into her arm. And I was like, is that a band? She was into heavy metal. And she's like, no. And she was like, I didn't even do this, you know? And I can remember her not that time, but I can remember her cutting her legs and cutting her arms and stuff like that. And my mom would send her to the counselor, but because my mom was emotionally disturbed as well, and she had her own bipolar schizophrenia or whatever, she would take them out because in her mind, counselors and stuff like that were bad. You know, police were bad. Always police were bad. But counselors were bad. Teachers were bad. They didn't know what they were teaching you. They didn't know what they. You know, all this stuff. And she would say that they're gathering information on us. They want us, they want us, they want us. She would say like, we're like Christ's bloodline. She knew Christ's descendants. We're, you know, all this stuff. And that's what I had to go up around. I mean, I got past it. I'm working. I mean, I worked through it. I understand that she had an illness, but I know it sounds really bad on my part, but growing up with my mom the way that she was.

[Investigator]

Were used to that kind of thing.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I was used to it.

[Lauren Kukla]

And I never thought that she would hurt anybody because my mom never threatened.

[Investigator]

It didn't alarm you because you've been exposed.

[Lauren Kukla]

Right? Right. It didn't at all. And I. I mean, I've been working through that, but at the same time, I. I mean, my foster was like, how would you know that. That she was gonna, you know, hurt anybody? And she's like. She said that anything that Jenny could have said, I mean, it would roll right off my back at the state that I am in right now. So it did. You know what I'm saying? And then she started saying, you know, it's hard for me to get past my past with my mom. Hard for me to even say that. I can't believe what she was telling me about knowing Keith Richards and the Beatles and whatever, because that was my mom. And I was conditioned my entire life to believe that she was telling me the truth. Sure. That's my mom, you know. So when Jenny tells Me, this stuff, I think, what if. Mom. I know I don't want to say that I'm. I don't want to feel like you or you guys think that I'm crazy, but what if, you know, maybe this is, you know, my mom, not my mom telling her this stuff, but like, maybe something my mom said was true. Maybe, you know, we are. She was special or Jenny is special. That's why she tried to protect her before, you know, and that's why my mom had to be put on meds, was because she knew something. And then she knew Jenny would know the same thing or be able to do the same thing or whatever. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? And I thought it was some kind of religious belief that they both shared or something. I don't know. I can probably. But it's in some way hella high, in some way connected to the hypnotism.

[Detective]

What does she think? Hypnotism?

[Lauren Kukla]

She didn't disclose that information to me. She said that she told Al that she knew biker crews, like vigilantes or something. She didn't say vigilantes, but that's the only name of biker crew I've ever heard in my life. So. But stuff like that, that she was affiliating with them. She said that Jim Real, which I know was a boss at Dijinko and was also the owner or part owner of TJ's, where she worked at a golf course for a couple years and stuff like that. She said that he. She wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if she. If she would go there and if she was actually doing the work that, you know, that they. She told me she was like a bartender and a cook and stuff like that. But she. She doesn't remember actually doing it. She's thinking that she was brainwashed into thinking she was doing that kind of work when really she was doing something else. She says that that was like a lapse in her brain. She doesn't understand what happened at that time in her life. She asked me if I remembered her.

[Detective]

This was all Saturday night.

[Investigator]

Okay.

[Lauren Kukla]

She said, I think, Lauren, that I used to kill people. And I said I literally wrote it off as her just being either drunk or me not recognizing it as an issue. Like she was saying it almost. Not in a joking manner, but not to where it's like, lauren, I think I used to kill people. You need to, you know, help me or something. You know, I think I used to kill people. I'm like, jenny, you Know. What are you. Where are you getting this from? She's like, I don't know. I just. I. She's like, I don't understand. I don't remember. I don't remember. And then she said. She said, like, I don't remember that, like, three times, you know, when it broke. And then she said, I think I ate them. And I said, jenny, you know, And I remember growing up, like, she used to have, like. I know it sounds stupid, but she used to do, like, candle things in her room. And, like, she'd walk around the can, like. You know what I'm saying? Like, weird shit like that.

[Investigator]

Like, seance almost type things.

[Lauren Kukla]

Yeah, like a seance or like a demonic something or other. But, I mean, she. At that time, I know that she had had some experiences with drugs. I don't know what, because I was nine years younger, but I know. I mean, my mom bought some pot in the house. She found plants, and she threw them against the wall because they were all in the basement. The kids, me and my old. My Lizzie shared a room upstairs for a while. And then when my dad started raping the kids, like, right before Jenny turned, like, 10 or something, 12, I don't know. He made the bedrooms downstairs for them. So it was almost like their whole, like. I mean, they were. They weren't finished. There was tile on the floor, but it was like they were drywall and stuff like that. They had separate rooms, and Lizzie was in this room, Joey was in the middle, and then Jenny was at the far end. And she used to come and sneak boys in and stuff like that. And they do. I mean, Matt Vesage, the one that Lizzie is, Lizzie's fiance now. And, like, I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever. I didn't know. And I wouldn't tell my mom because they would tell me to shut up. And they'd tell me not to come downstairs all the time because there was. There was stuff under the. I think they were trying to keep me away from whatever they were doing. There was stuff under the stairs. There was big spiders. There was ghosts, whatever, you know what I'm saying? And I literally. I really believe that they. Even if they weren't brainwashed, that they had done something to themselves, you know what I mean? To where they thought that this was real, you know, or at least maybe she lived with that. She used to cut. Like, I remember one time she cut Slayer into her arm. And I was like, is that me? Out of a band? She was into heavy metal and she's like, no. And she was like, I didn't even do this, you know, And I can remember her not that time, but I can remember her cutting her legs and cutting her arms and stuff like that. And my mom would send her to the counselor, but because my mom was emotionally disturbed as well, and she had her own bipolar, schizophrenia or whatever, she would take them out because in her mind, counselors and stuff like that were bad. You know, police were good. Always. Police were good, but counselors were bad. Teachers were bad. They didn't know what they were teaching you. They didn't know what they. You know, all this stuff. And she would say that they're gathering information on us. They want. They want us. They want us, they want us. She would say, like, we're like Christ's bloodline. She knew Christ's descendants were, you know, all this stuff. And that's what I had to go around. I mean, I got past it. I'm working. I mean, I worked through it. I understand that she had an illness, but I know it sounds really bad on my part, but growing up with my mom the way that she was.

[Investigator]

Were used to that kind of thing.

[Jennifer Kukla]

I was used to it.

[Lauren Kukla]

And I never thought that she would hurt anybody because my mom never threatened.

[Investigator]

It didn't alarm you because you've been exposed, Right?

[Lauren Kukla]

Right. It didn't at all. And I. I mean, I've been working through that, but at the same time, I. I mean, my foster was like, how would you know that. That she was gonna, you know, hurt anybody? And she's like. She said that anything that Jenny could have said, I mean, it would roll right off my back at the state that I am in right now. So it did. You know what I'm saying? And then she started saying, you know, it's hard for me to get past my past with my mom. Hard for me to even say that. I can't believe what she was telling me about knowing Keith Richards and the Beatles and whatever, because that was my mom. And I was conditioned my entire life to believe that she was telling me the truth. That's my mom, you know. So when Jenny tells me this stuff, I think, what if Mom. I know. I don't want to say that I'm. I don't want to feel like you or you guys think that I'm crazy, But what if, you know, maybe this is, you know, my mom, not my mom, telling her this stuff, but, like, maybe something my mom said was true. Maybe, you know, we are. She was special or Jenny is special. That's why she tried to protect her before, you know, and that's why my mom had to be put on meds, was because she knew something. And then she knew Jenny would know the same thing or be able to do the same thing or whatever. I don't know, you know what I'm saying? And I thought it was some kind of religious belief that they both shared or something. I don't know.

[Narrator]

Their mother's unchecked mental illness had set the stage. Jennifer's life was a perfect storm and she knew it.

[Jennifer Kukla]

What else do you need to know?

[Detective]

Anything else you can think of about this whole incident?

[Jennifer Kukla]

I never should have had kids. Should have looked at my mom and said, well, she's psycho. Make sure I can do it to nobody else. Don't have kids.

[Narrator]

And there it is. Hearing these final words is haunting her admission. I should have never had kids. It's not just a regret. It's the very moment of Jennifer's realization about the generational cycle of trauma and mental illness. She saw and experienced the fallout of her own mother's struggle, lived through it, and yet found herself walking down a similar path. Trapped by the very symptoms she once feared. Jennifer was raised by someone incapable of loving, protecting, and caring for her in the way every child deserves. This was a parent who not only failed to protect, but often directly exposed them to traumatic experiences. After living through that trauma, this same parent deterred her children from seeking mental health services. Perhaps Jennifer was set up to fail from the very start. In September of 2007, about seven months after the tragic murders, 30 year old Jennifer Kukla went to trial for two counts of first degree murder. Three separate psychologists testified on her behalf, stating that she was legally insane at the time of the killings and therefore not criminally responsible. They felt she should be found guilty by reason of insanity and placed in a psychiatric facility. The jury, though, didn't buy it. They cited the feeble attempt at suicide, the inconsistencies in Jennifer's police interview compared to her psych interviews, and even witnessed testimony from her employer who remembered Jennifer saying she could just kill her kids during a conversation about being late for work because of them. To top it off, even if Jennifer had been suffering an acute psychotic episode that day, under Michigan law, if that episode is triggered by drinking alcohol, it's not a defense. The jury rendered a guilty verdict while also acknowledging the obvious mental illness. She was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, but with the promise that she would receive at least some mental health care. The police officers who responded to the gruesome scene will never get the image out of their heads. Jennifer asked for her brain to be erased, and I'm sure those officers wish for the very same thing. They remember seeing the two little girls laying side by side in their small bedroom, surrounded by their toys, their books, their artwork, and even photos of them smiling with their mom. One deputy said this you can only imagine their lifestyle. You could see that they didn't have much, but what they did have, they seemed to appreciate. They seemed like they were happy, cute girls. You have to try hard not to think about it rationally. It was an irrational act. You never let it go. All right, I'll tell you what. One little thing. The show that's coming up is called this Doesn't Happen to People Like Me. I know, it's a very long title. Anyway, go find it on Apple and Spotify and subscribe. Do it now. I will say one more thing because I know how you people operate. Yes, the show will be available on plus commercial free of course. And it's going to be on every tier as well. So no more mix ups. But you do help us out tremendously still by subscribing on Apple and Spotify.