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Episode 303 - Sword and Scale | Wave AI Podcast Notes

Episode 303

Fri Jul 04 2025

Michelle Rogers thought she had found a stable partner in Matthew Terry, a man who seemed fun and dependable when they met in Lansing, Michigan. But as their relationship went on, his real personality began to show: a violent and controlling side that...

Summary

Sword and Scale Episode 303 Summary

Title: Sword and Scale
Host/Author: Sword and Scale
Release Date: July 4, 2025
Description: Sword and Scale delves deep into the darkest corners of true crime, presenting raw and uncensored audio to unravel harrowing stories of murder, abduction, and other heinous crimes. Episode 303 explores the chilling case of Matthew Terry, whose violent actions reveal the horrifying reality that monsters exist within our society.

Introduction and Setting the Stage

The episode opens with a stark warning about the adult themes and violence that listeners will encounter, immediately immersing the audience into the gravity of the forthcoming story.

[00:00] Mike Boudet: "Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised."

Mike Boudet, the host, introduces the episode by highlighting the core mission of Sword and Scale: to uncover the darkest aspects of human nature and the failures within the criminal justice system.

[00:21] Mike Boudet: "Sword and Scale is a human nature podcast. It's a podcast about right and wrong and how we figure out what's what, how we incentivize the good and how we punish the bad."

The Rise of Matthew Terry

Background in Lansing, Michigan

Michelle Rogers, a 35-year-old mechanical engineer from Lansing, Michigan, presents a picture of an average Midwestern life disrupted by a relationship with Matthew Terry.

[06:10] Narrator: "Lansing is a pretty typical Midwest city...most of the houses are modest, nothing too flashy, but comfortable."

Michelle's desire for companionship leads her to a dating site, where she meets Matthew Terry. Their relationship blossoms quickly, with Matthew displaying attentiveness not just to Michelle but also to her young son.

[07:22] 911 Operator: "There's a man. He has a woman pinned on the ground in their driveway. They're fighting."

The First Assault: A Fight Turned Deadly

One evening, a violent altercation erupts between Michelle and Matthew. The situation swiftly escalates from a domestic dispute to a life-threatening attack.

[08:20] Mike Boudet: "It was definitely a fight, and Michelle was determined to survive."

Michelle's attempts to defend herself using her knowledge as a wrestling coach are vividly recounted, portraying the brutality of Matthew's assault.

[09:50] Michelle Rogers: "I remember him coming at me and pushing me into the front door... He was putting me in chokeholds to the point where I was starting to black out." [15:24]

Despite sustaining severe injuries, including seven stab wounds and head trauma, Michelle manages to escape and seek help.

Aftermath and Legal Proceedings

Matthew Terry's Arrest and Trial

Matthew Terry is charged with attempted murder but manages to secure a relatively lenient three-year sentence after pleading guilty to a lesser charge.

[22:20] Mike Boudet: "He was sentenced to three years in prison in the Michigan Department of Corrections, which he did serve three years."

Detective Matthew Krumbach criticizes the judicial outcome, labeling the jury's decision as "wishy washy."

[24:20] Detective Krumbach: "Juries are wishy washy, and I hope every person that sat on that jury is well aware of what Matt Terry did."

The Second Assault: Kay Baker's Tragedy

Upon his release, Matthew Terry relocates to Lithia, Florida, where he befriends Kay Baker, a math teacher and mother of two. Unlike Michelle, Kay becomes his second victim.

[29:35] Matthew Krumback: "He ultimately murdered somebody that he could no longer control..."

Kay's murder mirrors Michelle's attack, with Terry displaying the same violent tendencies. Despite previous red flags, Kay's inherent trust and kindness lead her to unknowingly invite Terry into her life.

[38:14] Mike Boudet: "Kay Baker was...bubbly, compassionate, and fiercely loyal...she wanted to see the best in people, even when it wasn't there."

Failures of the Criminal Justice System

Systemic Issues Highlighted

The episode underscores the systemic failures that allowed Matthew Terry to re-offend after a previous violent offense. Detective Krumbach laments the inadequacies of the justice system in adequately punishing such offenders.

[63:41] Detective Krumbach: "He was finding him guilty of something, but not what he actually did."

Impact on Victims and Families

Michelle Rogers shares her ongoing trauma and the continuous fear for her safety even after her initial assault.

[65:51] Michelle Rogers: "I feel like if someone just would have listened to me... it wasn't all good."

The emotional and psychological toll on families, particularly on Kay Baker's family and Michelle's, is poignantly depicted, emphasizing the long-lasting effects of such violence.

Conclusion: Lessons and Reflections

Mike Boudet reflects on the stories of Michelle and Kay, drawing broader societal lessons about trust, recognition of red flags, and the importance of taking victims' warnings seriously.

[68:32] Mike Boudet: "It's important to listen. It's important to open up our minds to what could be other than what we think it is."

The episode concludes with a powerful statement on the necessity of balancing optimism with vigilance to prevent such tragedies.

[71:55] Mike Boudet: "Maybe start protecting yourself because you're the only one in charge of that."

Notable Quotes with Attribution and Timestamps

Mike Boudet: "Sword and Scale is a human nature podcast...how we incentivize the good and how we punish the bad." [00:21]
911 Operator: "There's a man. He has a woman pinned on the ground in their driveway. They're fighting." [07:22]
Michelle Rogers: "I remember him coming at me and pushing me into the front door... He was putting me in chokeholds to the point where I was starting to black out." [15:24]
Detective Matthew Krumbach: "Juries are wishy washy, and I hope every person that sat on that jury is well aware of what Matt Terry did." [24:20]
Mike Boudet: "Kay Baker was...bubbly, compassionate, and fiercely loyal...she wanted to see the best in people, even when it wasn't there." [38:14]
Michelle Rogers: "I feel like if someone just would have listened to me... it wasn't all good." [65:51]
Mike Boudet: "Maybe start protecting yourself because you're the only one in charge of that." [68:32]

Key Insights and Conclusions

Cycle of Violence: The episode illustrates how a lack of adequate justice can lead to repeated violence, as seen with Matthew Terry’s ability to re-offend after a lenient sentence.
Systemic Failures: It highlights significant shortcomings within the criminal justice system, particularly regarding the handling of violent offenders and the protection of victims.
Victim Resilience vs. Victim Isolation: Michelle Rogers’ survival showcases personal resilience, while her subsequent isolation underscores the societal neglect of supporting survivors adequately.
Trust and Betrayal: Kay Baker’s story emphasizes the dangers of blind trust and the tragic consequences that can arise when red flags are ignored.
Importance of Listening: A recurring theme is the critical need to heed victims’ warnings and take their pleas for help seriously to prevent further tragedies.

Final Thoughts

Episode 303 of Sword and Scale serves as a harrowing reminder of the real-life monsters that exist among us and the urgent need for systemic change to protect vulnerable individuals. Through the deeply personal stories of Michelle Rogers and Kay Baker, the episode not only recounts acts of violence but also critiques the broader societal and judicial failures that enable such atrocities to recur.

Listeners are left to ponder the balance between trust and vigilance, emphasizing that while kindness and optimism are virtues, they must be tempered with awareness and precaution to safeguard oneself and others from potential harm.

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Transcript

Mike Boudet (0:00)

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

911 Operator (0:14)

Do not come out this door. Gary, Babe, they're struggling. I'm sorry. My children are trying to get out of the house.

Mike Boudet (0:21)

Yeah. Can you believe Margaret called me a Nazi again? Oh, hi. This is Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. This is episode 303 of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. In case you haven't heard, which would be really weird because we repeat it every single episode. There's a thing called Sword and Scale Television. At sword and scale.com we have have about 16 episodes now of the show True Crime, hour long, each some of the best true crime you'll find. Go check it out. And support independent creators. Hey, how about them? Terrorists? We're not here to talk about terrorism or politics or any of that, but there is a common thread between all those things and what we talk about here, and that's that humanity is at the center of it all. Across the country, over the last, I don't know, couple years, ever since blm, we've seen a ramping up, an escalation, if you will, of descent across college campuses all over the country. And it hasn't just been isolated to college campuses. It's an infection, a virus, if you will, spreading across the young people of today. A need to stand up for those who have been wrongfully oppressed. When you have no understanding of history and you operate strictly on emotion, sometimes you stand up for the wrong person, like, oh, I don't know, a terrorist. Sometimes you just start spewing terrorist propaganda, literally, and prevent other students from getting to their class, other people from getting to work, and contributing to society, the society we're all supposedly trying to build here. Standing up for the wrong person, no matter how good your intentions are, can have disastrous consequences. Gays for Gaza would be a fantastic example of that if you played it out to its inevitable conclusion. But again, we're not here to talk about politics, just pointing out these similarities between the story we're about to tell you and society at large. Because that's what we do here. We tell you stories of real people that have really happened in a way where we try to make it apply to your everyday life. Thornton Scale isn't really a true crime podcast. It's a human nature podcast. It's a podcast about right and wrong and how we figure out what's what, how we incentivize the good and how we punish the Bad. It's about making sense of it all. In a time when making sense of things has become a bit of a challenge. I'm sure 35 year old Michelle Rogers, who lived in Lansing, Michigan in 2015, understood that challenge. She was trying to stand up for the wrong person. Lansing is a pretty typical Midwest city. It's a state capital, so you've got the big government buildings downtown. But most of the city seems a lot more low key. The neighborhoods are quiet and lined with trees. Most of the houses are modest, nothing too flashy, but comfortable. It's the kind of place where people say hi when they pass each other on the street, but everyone you know, mostly keeps to themselves like we do in every major city in America. A lot of scary people out there. As we all know. Anyway, Lansing used to thrive because of the auto industry. A lot of places in Michigan were decimated after the auto industry kind of went overseas. You could still see parts of that history and it is really quite interesting and beautiful. Some of those old buildings are incredible. A symbol of bustling capitalism and growth at its peak. But we're living in a different time and a lot of those factories have closed down. Now it's more about schools, government jobs and local businesses. The few that are left, people tend to stick to their routines. Work, family, maybe catching a ball game or heading to a park on the weekends. Even though the crime rate is a bit higher, so is the community and level of neighborhood vigilance. Michelle was an independent and self sufficient woman with a great career and almost everything she wanted in life. She had everything except for one thing. Someone to go out to dinner or dancing with. One day, feeling the need for adult company, she signed up to a dating site. She wasn't looking for anything serious, especially with a young son to care for. Just somebody to hang out with, have a couple dates, have a little fun. No harm, no foul. She swiped left and right through dozens of pictures and profiles, seeing if anyone matched her energy. And then after a couple swipes, she found Matthew Terry's picture. It popped up on her screen and she was interested. At the same time, Matthew was checking out Michelle's profile. He liked her vibe and the fact that they had common interests. He probably just thought she was hot because that's how guys think. But whatever the reason, they hooked up. They started dating. Michelle kept her guard and didn't want to get too serious. But Matthew was so easygoing and they had such a great time together that it just kind of flourished. He was attentive, not just to her but to her son. He took him fishing and sled riding. And even her son liked Matthew. The fact that they were so compatible came as a surprise to Michelle. And she was starting to believe Matthew when he said he thought they were soulmates. It's easy to get caught up in that.

Mike Boudet (18:42)

It was a few months into the relationship and Michelle was a runner preparing for a big race. She'd thought it through and was going to break things off as soon as the race was over. She just didn't want to take on someone who had a potential drinking problem. But as the race came closer, she started to feel ill. She took a test and realized that, oh shit, I'm pregnant. Things continued normally for the next year and a half. Matthew was a good dad and for the most part, a loving partner. There were just times when he took his partying a little too far. And it concerned Michelle even more now that she had a child with him. On St. Patrick's Day of 2017, the couple went out with friends for the day. They stopped for lunch at an Irish pub and had a couple of beers. Then they moved on to another Irish bar where Michelle slowed down, but Matthew did not. By 6pm Michelle was ready to go out, but found Matthew in another bar next door. He was the only one in the place and he was so plastered he couldn't even talk. That's when she decided to just go home alone. I don't blame her. Nobody wants to put up with a drunk. Michelle walked a mile and a half through the snowy cold weather just to get away from her significant other, just to get home exhausted. She then drove to the home of Matt's parents and picked up the kids. And when she got back home, she sank into the couch. Just a couple of hours later, a very different version of Matthew than the man she loved showed up at the screen door, knocking to get in. This seemingly AI representation of the man she loved proceeded to stumble through the kitchen and Started to make himself a sandwich. Michelle sat in the open concept living room where she could watch TV but still keep an eye on him. He was drunk, but things were peaceful. That is, until they weren't. Michelle was in the hospital fighting for her life now. And Matthew was arraigned in the morning after the attack. The lead detective, who coincidentally shares the same first name, remembers what Matthew said from jail.

Matthew Krumback (40:14)

She sent her pictures. She's like, don't let this happen to you. And she just kind of blew her off. And Kay's friends down in Florida, they believed Matt Terry. They believed, you know, his explanation for why he was in prison. They believed that he was wrongly convicted. You know, they believed his story because he's that good of a liar. And now they're all like, oh, my God, you know, now our friend is dead. We shouldn't have believed him. We should have believed Michelle. And, like, well, maybe you or your children or somebody in your life will be saved because you were touched by this. So who knows? And that goes to tell you what a excellent con man Matt Terry is. He is a self absorbed, narcissistic SOB is what he is. And he's damn good at what he does. He can make anyone believe the lie that he is telling them. And of course, you know his, you know his father is going to stick up for him for the utmost and his brothers stuck up for him and his family. They came to court, they tried to victim shame Michelle, they tried to intimidate her. In fact, even after the fact, the homicide in Florida, when we were down in Florida testifying, you know, we were asked to come down on a couple of occasions and testify in that case. And even then, you know, Mr. Terry made comments to the Tampa Journal that in the case involving Michelle that if he really wanted to have harmed or killed Michelle, he would have thinking to myself, were you not in the same trial I was? Have you not seen the mountain of evidence? Have you not seen the seven stab wounds, you know, the broken molars, the black eyes? Have you not seen the bite marks on her face? And you're telling me that that's self defense, but that goes to tell you what kind of a twisted individual his dad, Mark Terry is. He made those statements after he had murdered a woman in Florida. And it was just, it's just outrageous. In fact, he even got caught when he was testifying on behalf of his son during the portion of the death penalty where he had gotten caught once again on a jail call to his son the night before, referring to Michelle in a derogatory term. And the prosecutor brought it to his attention and of course that stopped everything right there because there was an objection and oh, you didn't bring this up. But yet it was very clear that Matt Terry's father Mark was talking to his son on the phone after he had been found guilty of first degree murder. And we were testifying in the penalty phase of a possible death penalty that he was still blaming Michelle Rogers for all his problems. And I just thought you are a piece of work and you're also a piece of something else. But that goes to tell you where Matt Terry comes from. That's how he was raised.

Mike Boudet (52:39)

Initially, the state attorney chose not to pursue the death penalty against Matthew. Kaye's family wanted life in prison for Matthew because they didn't want the drama and prolonged process associated with the death penalty. But on August 4, 2022, Governor Ron DeSantis suspended the current state attorney and appointed a new one. The following day, the previous decision was reversed and a notice was filed to seek the death penalty against him, citing the especially heinous nature of the crime and his history of violent behavior. The trial was a dark reminder of how the justice system sometimes gets it wrong and leaves grieving families feeling even more empty. Once again, Matthew Terry would claim self defense. But this time, there was no victim to speak for herself. This would again fall on Michelle Rogers. In the aftermath of Kay Baker's 2022 murder in Lithia, Florida, grief turned into outrage. Her family, still reeling from the loss of, faced an unimaginable task of having to explain to her two young sons that their mother was gone forever. Kay's friends and colleagues were shattered. The joy of the last school day turned into disbelief as the news spread. How could this have happened to someone so full of life, someone with so much to give? But this wasn't just a tragedy. It was a failure. Matthew Terry had already shown the world who he was, and we just ignored it and thought maybe he'll be better. In Michigan, he'd stabbed his ex girlfriend, Michelle Rogers, in a drunken frenzy. She had survived by sheer will, and yet the justice system handed him only three years. Because somehow we're trying to normalize this behavior. Maybe because it happens in certain communities that we want to lift up or something, I don't know. But why don't we just punish the things that are wrong and let everything else sort itself out? Jesus fucking Christ, am I the only sane person on earth anyway? Now Matthew had taken Kay's life and once again pleaded not guilty. Michelle and Detective Krumbach were about to relive their 2017 nightmare.