← Talk Shop with Ariel Okin: A Fenimore Lane Production
Talk Shop with Ariel Okin: A Fenimore Lane Production
Elizabeth Lawrence // Rising from Intern to Partner with Bunny Williams
00:42:49
Loading summary
Transcript262 lines
- [00:00]
A
Interesting having become a partner. You know, I think a lot about what you said just before this, about how that doesn't really happen. And I really hope we can make that happen more in our industry. You know, you see it at architectural firms, law firms, like, why not reward people for staying and learning and, you know, having a passion for not just design, but the place where they are. So I always say, if I'm successful, this will go on beyond me and there will be other people.
- [00:30]
B
Welcome to Talkshop. I'm Arielle Oken, a New York based interior designer, writer and editor looking to bring a little bit of magic into our homes every day. After years as a writer and editor in the interiors world, I founded my own editorial site, Fenimore Lane, in 2020, and the TalkShop interview series was born. Each week, I delve into the personal experiences of the top interior designers and tastemakers around the globe. A Elizabeth Lawrence's design origin story is one to inspire. Rising from intern to partner at one of the most prestigious interior design firms in the country. Originally hailing from Wilmington, Delaware, the classically trained interior designer attended the University of Richmond and then the New York School of Interior Design. After graduation, a coveted internship at Bunny Williams Interior Design led to a job as a junior designer. And Elizabeth rose through the ranks from senior designer to becoming the firm's first ever partner, a major accomplishment. Together, Elizabeth and Bunny run Williams Lawrence, the interior design firm formerly known as Bunny Williams Interior Design, and the firm's product line, Bunny Williams Home. Elizabeth has been honored by the New York School of Interior Design, and her work has been widely published in media outlets including Architectural Digest, Elle Decor, House Beautiful, Veranda Gallery Milieu, and others, as well as being featured in Bunny's newest interior design course on Create Academy, how to design your dream home. When not at the office reading, visiting museums, or spending time with family, Elizabeth can be found exploring the world with her husband and her daughter. Please join me as I welcome the wonderfully talented Elizabeth Lawrence to the podcast. Elizabeth, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you on.
- [02:10]
A
Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. I'm a big fan.
- [02:13]
B
Oh, my God. When I saw you and you told me you were listening to an episode you made my whole week, I was so happy.
- [02:19]
A
Well, it's really great to, you know, hear all these design icons and you are so great at interviewing, so.
- [02:25]
B
Oh my God, thank you. It's honestly been so fun. I've. I've enjoyed it a lot. Well, you listen to the show, so you Know that when we have everybody on, we kick off the conversation by asking people to describe your style in three words or less.
- [02:42]
A
So I would say classic, thoughtful, and varied. And I think the thoughtful part is really big for me because I really try to listen to what people want and I want to give people it's their home, you know, they live there. And I want to make sure I'm paying attention to that.
- [02:58]
B
So it's a big part that's so important. I feel like one of the biggest things that I've learned just from reading all of the Bunny books over the years is the importance of keeping design personal. Because I love how she always says, I don't want someone to walk in and say, oh, this looks like Bunny did it. I want someone to say, this looks like you. And I think that's so amazing and such a great lesson that everybody could learn.
- [03:21]
A
Yeah, no, it's huge.
- [03:23]
B
So for those listening, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and where you are at this point in your career and sort of how you got there?
- [03:31]
A
Yeah. So I am a partner at Williams Lawrence, which is formerly Bunny Williams Inc. I have been here a long time. I started as an intern when I was at Nice Ed New York School of Interior Design. I finished college and then moved to New York, wanted to do interior design, and was in school for about a year at Nice IT and said, you know what? I think I need an internship. And so I started sending resumes to, you know, some of my favorite designers. And my mom said, well, what about Bunny Williams? And I said, mom, I'm sure Bunny doesn't have interns. Like, and my mom said, well, just so I sent it, and they were the first people to call me and the first interview me, and they offered me a summer internship. So moral of the story, listen to your mother.
- [04:14]
B
Yes, very true.
- [04:16]
A
You know, so I interned for a summer, and then I kept interning. I interned for the fall and the winter and another summer, and so close to two years. And, you know, then I was like, well, I don't know, you know, I. I want to get a full time job or maybe I want to experience a different kind of design. They asked me to kind of stay on in the capacity I was in, and it wasn't really the role I wanted. So I went and worked somewhere else and did a few other things. And then they called me up and they said, would you like to come back and be a junior designer? And I said, yes. So I came back in 2007. I have done kind of Every role here. And I've been a junior designer, a senior designer I've helped coordinate, you know, and then I was thinking about what my future is, and I went in to talk to Bunny about that. I said, you know, I said, I've got to think about this. And she said, well, I've been thinking about it, too. I was very surprised. And she said, you know, I'd like to make you a partner. And that was something that I had never thought was a poss.
- [05:13]
B
Yeah, it's so rare.
- [05:15]
A
It is, for sure. And Bunny had wanted to be a partner at Parish Hadley. So she was very forward thinking about this.
- [05:21]
B
Yeah.
- [05:22]
A
It's funny, because when she said, you know, I want to do this, I took the advice that my father always gives me is says, you know, we'll always say, let me think about it. So I looked at her and I said, okay, well, I have to think about it. Let me. You know, and I thought, what is she thinking? That I told her I had to think about it. You know, that's hysterical. And then she said, okay, come into my apartment. We'll have dinner. And I did. And, you know, we talked more about it. And, you know, I mean, it's been a great opportunity, and I was here for so long. Once I was made a partner, I just really knew so much about the firm and our clients that I wanted more of a role in that. She said, sure.
- [05:57]
B
Wow.
- [05:57]
A
She's been totally on board about it from day one. And, you know, and then so I became a partner, and we talked about, you know, the name of the firm. And she said, I'm open to having the firm be named whatever you think. Which I thought, well, that's crazy. You know, it's Williams. This is Bunny Williams. And so we left it as it was. You know, I always say Bunny is. She's like Madonna. She needs one name, you know, she's like Beyonce. Like, really, you say Bunny. You know, everyone knows, you know, and there's a lot of power in that name. Recently, about a little bit more than a year ago, you know, we started having this conversation about how it was probably important to have my name on the door. And Bunny completely agreed. She said, do it. And so we did it.
- [06:39]
B
It's my favorite story in the whole design canon, honestly, because it's so amazing that, first of all, turnover rates are so high. This just doesn't happen. And so it's so much about an amazing relationship that you have with her, which we'll get into. And that's, like, so much about mentorship and letting somebody have the space to grow within a firm and all of those amazing things that I think are harder to find now. And also not being afraid to ask for the internship when you were like, oh, she definitely doesn't take interns. And then look where that got. You know, my mom always says, like, the worst thing that someone could say to you is no.
- [07:19]
A
Right.
- [07:19]
B
And that's so true.
- [07:22]
A
And, you know, really holding out for the position I wanted. They said, stay on. You can be a shopper. You can do cad. And so I held out, and they called me back. And so that was big, too. And that was big. I think, also as a woman, you know, this is a business. We run businesses. And yes, it's creative, and there's wonderful things about it, but it's sometimes hard, as especially a young woman, to learn to stand up for what you want and what you think you deserve. And it's something I talk to everyone in the office about a lot. You know, people will come to me and say, can I talk to you about something? And they'll start out by apologizing. And I always say, no, no, we don't apologize. And so that was a really big learning thing for me, to say what I wanted and to take a step away from something that was a great offer.
- [08:02]
B
Yeah.
- [08:03]
A
And say, you know, I really want to be a junior designer. That's where I want to come. And so I think that helped me have that conversation with Bunny about my future, because, you know, these become stepping stones, and as women running businesses, you constantly be building ourselves up and thinking about that.
- [08:18]
B
That story is so inspiring to me. I mean, both of your stories are so inspiring to me, because it's hard to build a successful design firm in today's time. Like, there's so much noise. Everybody has an Instagram account. Anybody can become a designer. And to create that lasting legacy and to do it smartly and graciously and kindly is just an amazing thing. So I always love hearing you guys tell your stories, because it's just. I think it's so fantastic.
- [08:49]
A
Thank you. I mean, it's. It's been a great journey, and it's, you know, one we. We do every day, so.
- [08:54]
B
Yeah. Well, walk us through the beginning. And what drew you to design? Did you always know you wanted to be in design?
- [09:02]
A
You know, I didn't, but I think, like so many people I talk to in this industry, so much of it leads back to either our mothers or something in our childhood, right? Yes. So my mother is an artist and she did all of our houses. I mean, she was slipcovering chairs and faux painting walls and, you know, so it was there. And I was doing that with my dollhouses and my own room. But I think I just never really thought it was something you could do as a job.
- [09:28]
B
Yeah.
- [09:28]
A
And when I came out of college, I was going to be a photographer is what I had thought.
- [09:33]
B
Oh, wow.
- [09:34]
A
Yeah, I was really into photography. I kind of did. It wasn't a major where I went to school, but kind of it started to pick it up and I said, you know, I really love photography. So I said, let's do this. So I started teaching photography to high school kids.
- [09:46]
B
That's amazing.
- [09:47]
A
Yeah. And then where I went to high school, so that was like I was freshly out of college and, you know, teaching high school kids, that's such a.
- [09:54]
B
Great, like, cozy first job out of college also.
- [09:57]
A
Yeah. And while I did that, I took some photography classes. And then I just realized what I really loved about what I was doing with photography was being in the dark room and the like hands on developing of the film. And I wasn't so much into the digital, which is what I knew I needed to get to.
- [10:14]
B
Yeah.
- [10:15]
A
So I was living at home, I was talking to my mom about this and she said, well, what about interior design? Why don't you take a class? So I took a class and I said, oh, okay. Yes. And then I came to New York and I applied to Nice IT and started interning for Bunny.
- [10:30]
B
So I mean, the moral really is, always listen to your mom.
- [10:33]
A
It really is. I mean, she does say, though now she says, you know, she shows me something for her own house. And I'll say, well, that's not quite right.
- [10:40]
B
The student has surpassed the master.
- [10:43]
A
Yeah. And she says, oh, I've created a monster. You know, I'm like, oh, no, that's amazing. But, you know, it's interesting having become a partner. You know, I think a lot about what you said just before this, about how that doesn't really happen. And I really hope we can make that happen more in our industry. You know, you see it at architectural firms, law firms.
- [11:03]
B
Yeah.
- [11:04]
A
Like, why not reward people for staying and learning and, you know, having a passion for not just design, but the place where they are. So I always say, if I'm successful, this will go on beyond me and there will be other people.
- [11:18]
B
It's true. And I feel like as a designer, when you're running a firm, there's no greater value than someone who can read your mind. Just allows you to operate at such a higher level.
- [11:27]
A
Those people are hard to find, too. So when you find them, like, it's like, hold on to them.
- [11:32]
B
Yes. It's like a needle in a haystack. And it's like, like dating, really. I mean, it's like finding somebody that can. That can, you know, speak the same language as you can think the same way as you, both creatively and business wise. I mean, that's really hard. You should cherish those people in your firms and not let ego get in the way. And I think it's such an amazing precedent that you guys have set. When you first started working there, what was it like as an intern? And then how did it change? Feeling wise, you know, as you gained more experience?
- [12:02]
A
I was really quiet as an intern. I just. I just did the work. I was like, so, like, oh, my gosh, this world I am in. You know, there were a lot of designers here who had been at, you know, really great firms before, and it was, you know, it was intimidating.
- [12:17]
B
Of course. Yeah.
- [12:18]
A
You know, I did whatever they asked me to, which I think is so key. You know, that's the thing. It's like. And we've had all different kinds of interns, but the interns who end up, like, being the most successful are the ones who just do whatever they are.
- [12:30]
B
Asked and, yeah, team player mentality, so.
- [12:34]
A
Crucially important, you know, and like, that's. It's something Bunny always says too, you know, like someone who's just willing to clean the toilets. And. Yeah, so I did it all and. But I was quiet and I just went about and did my work. You know, when I came back full time as a junior designer, I just said, I just want to learn. I just want to make sure I am learning every day. And the thing about me was I was on the quieter side, but I knew I wanted to be a senior designer. Yeah, I knew I wanted to move up. So I knew I was going to do everything I could to make that happen. And I. One big thing was that learning component of take it all in. In every meeting and, you know, every opportunity.
- [13:09]
B
Yeah. I mean, absorbing as much as you can, especially at a place like that where you have access to so much information and different types of projects all over the world. I feel like there's just no greater education than being.
- [13:21]
A
No, no, there isn't. And so I really. I think I took advantage of that for sure.
- [13:27]
B
It's amazing. I always say, like, my biggest regret is not going to go intern at a place like that. So that I could learn. Because you also, when you go out on your own and you don't know anything, you make so many mistakes. You just have no idea what you're doing in the beginning.
- [13:41]
A
Oh, my gosh. You make so many mistakes no matter where you are. You know, it's like, so easy to make a mistake.
- [13:47]
B
And I always think that makes me feel better.
- [13:50]
A
I'm so lucky. I walk to work, I live close to the office, and every morning when I walk to work, I think in my head, okay, what's going to be waiting for me when I get there? Right. Like what, problem solving.
- [13:59]
B
Yeah.
- [14:00]
A
I mean, we are interior designers. We are problem solvers. So I do think it was great that I've been able to make those mistakes under someone at an office that is established that can help figure those mistakes out. And so there is a benefit to that.
- [14:16]
B
Yeah.
- [14:16]
A
You know, and I've heard Bunny tell stories about when she was starting out at Parrish Hadley and the mistakes she would make. We all do it. And it's such, you know, I always say it's like that game of telephone you play as a child where you start out, the one kid says something, and by the end it's like something totally different.
- [14:30]
B
Yes.
- [14:30]
A
That's how an order is. And if your baby's not reading your order and all of a sudden it'.
- [14:35]
B
Oh, my God, I love that. That's so true.
- [14:37]
A
You know, you have to. And I. That's why I tell everybody. I'm like, you have to constantly be checking everything.
- [14:41]
B
Yeah. No, I mean, it's all logistics and being on top of everything as much as you possibly can because there's just so many ways that things can go sideways, unfortunately.
- [14:50]
A
Exactly. It's, you know, so you're. You're right to that point. But I do think it's just. It's a lot of trial and error, for sure.
- [14:57]
B
Well, you and Bunny work together now, running the company. What's the day to day like? And how do you two work together?
- [15:03]
A
So when I was made a partner, that was the one thing I said. I said, you know, I want in the day to day running and, like, overseeing, you know, everyone who's here. And she was like, take it. Do whatever you would like. And I thought, well, she was pretty easy on giving.
- [15:16]
B
Yeah.
- [15:17]
A
And then I, you know, sometimes be careful what you wish for.
- [15:19]
B
But it's hard.
- [15:21]
A
It is. And, you know, this industry is a people industry. Right. It's the people in your office, it's the vendors, it's the clients it's just people stuff all the time.
- [15:29]
B
Yeah.
- [15:30]
A
And in life, people stuff is the hardest. You know, you're, you're dealing with all that, but it's also some of the most rewarding. I mean, I think it's why I got into this business. Like, I love people and I, I, I think you do as well. I mean, that definitely shows, you know, in your podcast and the way you talk to people, you know, So I took over kind of more of that, but I pass everything by. Bunny.
- [15:49]
B
Yeah.
- [15:50]
A
I go in and I say, listen, we're dealing with this thing X, Y and Z. This is what I think we should do. What do you think? And she usually goes, yep, great, fine. You know, and then there's, there's bigger issues we'll sit and we'll talk about as far as design wise. You know, Bunny has some clients of her own, I have some clients of my own, and then we have things we work on together.
- [16:07]
B
Interesting. I love that.
- [16:09]
A
Yeah. And too, because sometimes I'm, you know, I've been so used to working with her through the years, and now I, you know, have so many projects on my own that it's nice when we get to work on something together again.
- [16:19]
B
I bet. I know. I've heard you guys both talk about how you guys are doing like multi generational now, where, you know, the parents who are now grandparents did the first project with Bunny and now their children who have young children are coming back and you're doing those projects. I mean, it's just an amazing continuity of the work and it's really beautiful.
- [16:39]
A
Well, you know, that's so wonderful because I do think so much of what also we do is about educating the client. Right?
- [16:47]
B
Yep.
- [16:47]
A
So when the children of Bunny clients come to me, they have, they've been educated. You know, they grew up around this, so they get it. Also, it's really fun because they'll say, you know, those chairs my parents have, well, they're not using them anymore. And I know exactly what they are. I have a reference of them. I know what the measurements are, I know what fabric they're in.
- [17:05]
B
That's amazing.
- [17:06]
A
And you know, I just, I also love this whole part of like, the sustainability of it because they're reusing things and they're passing things down, and I think that's something we're starting to lose a little bit. You know, not everybody wants their parents or their grandparents things, but there's a history there and a richness and so that's really fun to work with that.
- [17:24]
B
Yeah. Those pieces have memories attached to them, I always say, because sometimes we'll get inquiries, and people are like, oh, will you work with us if we keep, you know, some existing pieces? And I'm like, of course. Those are part of your family history, and it's special to incorporate those in different ways.
- [17:41]
A
Yeah. And it's funny for me, too. When Bunny sees the photos from my project, she'll go, oh, I remember those. I remember that. You know, so I'm like, yeah, that's amazing.
- [17:49]
B
And amazing that you remember. As though not surprising.
- [17:51]
A
Oh, no.
- [17:52]
B
I've been watching the Create Academy course, which is fantastic. It's so good. And I love watching you guys interact together, because it's just you guys have, like, a special chemistry, and it's. It's just amazing.
- [18:03]
A
I talk a lot about my own mother, but, you know, in a way, Bunny's my design mother. You know, I mean, I was so raised by this. There's so much of her that is part of me now.
- [18:13]
B
Yeah. I mean, you were like a young kid when you started there. It's an amazing thing. Is there a favorite element about the design process for you?
- [18:21]
A
I love scheming.
- [18:23]
B
Yeah, I love it.
- [18:24]
A
I love finding a great rug. I love the fabrics. I am so tactile. I want to touch it all. I want to feel it. I want to sit in it. I think I've always been like that. You know, when I was little, I'd go touch everything in the store. That part I love. I mean, I just remember when I was a junior designer, and I would be taske with, you know, shopping, and then they'd say, okay, well, start to put together some schemes. And I. And I would do it. I would put together, like, 20 when they needed. Maybe, like, three would come in and be like, this is a lot. You got to edit. You know, it's amazing. And editing is a skill you have to learn over time as well.
- [18:57]
B
Over time, yeah.
- [18:58]
A
Yeah, that's. That's one of my favorite things. I mean, I also really love working with architects and. But that's something that has come through working with Bunny and, you know, really learning more about architecture and seeing how she responds to it. So that's also. I love that first phase of the. When the house doesn't really exist and you start to conceptualize what it looks like.
- [19:17]
B
Yeah, I feel like flow mode kicks in. It's just like, there's so many possibilities, and you're dreaming of, you know, what is this environment going to look like for these people? And how can we customize it for them so that it reflects them. Also, just, like, going and doing a really big pull and then putting everything out on the table and, like, mixing things together. So much fun.
- [19:38]
A
I mean, it's the best. I mean, this is also why I love to say at my table at home, because it's like a. I always say it's like a mini design project. I'm like, oh, this tablecloth and these napkins and these dishes.
- [19:47]
B
And yes. It's like, just the mixing and the matching and the playing, which I feel like my next question leads into what design rule do you always follow? And do you think that there are some that are made to be broken?
- [19:59]
A
So I really think scale is the one thing that you can get wrong. So much of what we do is subjective. Like. Like, your favorite color may be blue, and mine might be green, but that doesn't mean you're right, I'm wrong. And all those things are subjective. But scale, if things are not scaled properly to the room, if the seating groups aren't right, you can feel that. Clients can feel that. And they may not necessarily, like, be able to put their finger on it, but they know something's off. And so that's why it's like, you really have to study that and measure things out and look at things. You know, when I first started out, the thing Bunny says to everyone is, have you scaled it in? You scaled it in, you know, or have you seen it? Have you sat in it? Have you. You know, have you tasted it? Have you touched it? Like, all these things?
- [20:38]
B
I mean, that leads me where we're going next. But I always ask about mentors, and obviously, Bunny is a huge mentor in your career. How do you think she has shaped just your approach to design and your trajectory?
- [20:52]
A
I mean, in so many ways, you know, I just. I mean, there it's. It's countless. The other thing about Bunny is she's not afraid to say what she thinks. Yeah, that's amazing, you know, because I just. I don't mean to go back to this again, but it's, you know, as women, that's sometimes, like, a thing, right?
- [21:10]
B
No, absolutely. And also with clients, I feel like sometimes it's hard to say, but they actually end up appreciating it more because then they trust you more.
- [21:18]
A
Oh, they really do. I mean, I have been in so many meetings with Bunny where she just goes, wait, this house is too big. Do you realize what size house you're building? And they're like, no, no. And, like, they don't understand it. And, you know, the house has been drawn and it's so. And. And all of a sudden, you know, we cut the house down. And I mean, this is the magic of her. I've seen her give her opinion, and all of a sudden, the client is fully in, and then they don't want to make any decision without her because she's right about the things she's saying. Right? She knows.
- [21:52]
B
Yeah.
- [21:52]
A
And she says it with conviction. Like, she's not apologetic about it. She's just. And she explains why. And I think that's such a great lesson. That's huge to know. To have the strength in your conviction about what you are saying and what you're trying to convey to the client, because ultimately it's their home and they should get what they want. But they've hired you for your expertise. And she gives that. And I have seen. I have seen a room turn, and the client's like, okay, you need to be in every meeting. You need to be with the landscape architect. And this one and this one and this one. And. And that's. That's kind of magical.
- [22:25]
B
That's amazing. I mean, that's also just great life advice in general, even for people that aren't. Don't work in design. As a working woman in this world, just having the. The strength in your conviction to saying and feel good about it, I feel like is half the battle sometimes.
- [22:41]
A
Yeah. I mean, and that's something I've really worked on through my career is, you know, not doing the apology or the, you know, just. But just really. And I know what I know, so. Okay, then let's convey that.
- [22:53]
B
Yeah, I love that. What do you think some of the best advice for designing interiors you've ever received is?
- [23:01]
A
You know, I think drawing things out and just trying as. Because a lot of times these homes don't exist. So don't be afraid. I mean, I am not a great artist. You know, I can't do a great rendering of a room, but knowing how to sketch something out and even so I can visualize it, and then I can, you know, convey that to the client, because the clients really can't visualize a lot of the time, you know. I mean.
- [23:26]
B
Yeah, no, not at all.
- [23:28]
A
You do get some clients who have. Have that skill, but, you know, so you have to be able to convey your ideas, and you shouldn't be afraid to put the pencil to the paper and try to convey that in whatever simple form. And. And the more you do that and the more you sketch the floor Plans and sketch on the elevations. The, you know, better. You get at it.
- [23:48]
B
Yeah.
- [23:49]
A
You know, I just remember we would. You would do a project, and I would think, okay, this is great. We have all the things. And then, you know, we'd be getting closer to the end of. Bunny would go, well, let's look at the elevations.
- [23:58]
B
Yeah.
- [23:58]
A
And, you know, she'd sketch in the console, but she'd be like, well, what is. You know, do we need a mirror? Do we need a piece of art? What do we have on the console? You know? Yeah. All these details, which is what makes the work we do in this firm. You know, that layered, kind of detailed in the accessories.
- [24:12]
B
Yeah.
- [24:12]
A
It's a big part of it. But you, you know, that doesn't just happen. That, you know, is thought out and planned.
- [24:17]
B
Yeah. I mean, and that also comes from years of. Of doing it and knowing that's what makes the magic too. And, like, that's why the spaces feel so filled in and lived in and layered and collected over time and not like they were just, you know, put there yesterday. Well, let's get into a little bit about you, specifically. What do you think your home says about you?
- [24:39]
A
I think my home portrays my love of color because I. I do love color. You know, I love. I have some clear colors. I love muted tones. I love them all. And also just comfort. And I like to have people in my home. You know, I want people to come over. I want to set the table. I live in a New York apartment. It's not. Not a large, you know, house.
- [24:59]
B
Yeah.
- [24:59]
A
I'm limited on storage space, which, if I could have more storage space for my tabletop addiction, that would be great, you know, so I want people to feel comfortable. I don't want people. You know, I do have friends who come over who are, like, worried they're gonna spill something, but I'm like, it's just stuff, you know, it's just stuff.
- [25:16]
B
Yeah.
- [25:16]
A
I've got shot wipes right nearby, which are my favorite thing. I'm like, everything can be cleaned. Like, I want people to come into my home and feel like they can be there and they. They can be comfortable and they're not worried about things. And so I hope my home portrays that. I mean, now we have an 18 month old, so there's.
- [25:31]
B
I know. I love when you post. It's so cute.
- [25:34]
A
I have to say, it's one of the best things I've ever done, for sure. And, you know, but I also want our house to. I want her to be comfortable in It. I want the toys places. I want to be able to have a place to put the toys away, you know, but I want all of that as well, so.
- [25:47]
B
Yeah. What are some of your favorite places to shop for home?
- [25:50]
A
Well, I'm so fortunate that the building our office is in has so many great things, and so many, you know, great things have come. The building recently, too. You know, the James showroom.
- [26:01]
B
So gorgeous in there.
- [26:02]
A
Yeah. I mean, Luca has come back. That whole floor is great. I've shopped at BK Antiques and Balsamo for years. I mean, so lucky to have Doris Leslie Blau as well. You know, we do a lot of rugs with them, of course. Then there's also, you know, 60th street and David Duncan and Carlos de la Puente. So, like, I'm so lucky, the area we're in and, you know, to have all of those things and. But also, we love to go to Atlanta and shop. We do that a bunch. And definitely the antique and artisan center. Whenever we're in Connecticut, there's always a stop by there. Marianne gets such great things, and she has such a great eye.
- [26:38]
B
Yeah, it's an amazing place, but you have to travel.
- [26:41]
A
You have to go outside. We have to get out of the building of here sometimes, too, and we have to make sure we're doing that.
- [26:47]
B
I mean, it's hard to get out of that building. There's so much good stuff in there. Where do you find inspiration? Is it travel? Is it. I mean, I feel like it's all of the above.
- [26:55]
A
I mean, it is all of the above. I mean, I love to travel. I have to say, since we've had our daughter, we have done a lot less of that, and we are hoping to get back to doing that.
- [27:04]
B
It definitely hampers. It hampers the traveling experience for a few years.
- [27:08]
A
Yeah. I mean, I just. I think we're. I think we're ready. I think it just. It took me a little. It's. My husband's been ready, but I. It just took me a little longer to get my sea legs and.
- [27:17]
B
No, it's hard. It's a lot of logistics. Traveling with a. With a baby.
- [27:20]
A
Yeah. So, I mean. Yeah, travel. I. I love to travel, and I think that is really where I get most of my inspiration. You know, seeing someplace new. I mean, of course, books. And I also just love to go hear other people in the industry speak. You know, architects, other designers.
- [27:36]
B
Yeah.
- [27:36]
A
Talking to someone recently who said, oh, you know, our industry is one of those industries where we all just like to Applaud each other and go listen to each other speak and stuff. And I was like, it's true, but I like it.
- [27:46]
B
But it's so amazing. Like, how many other industries can you say that about?
- [27:49]
A
You know, I know, and I learned so much.
- [27:52]
B
Yes. And I mean, that's like. Honestly, the thing that I love the most about doing this show is that I feel like I learn every single time I speak to someone at least three new things that I can apply in my life. And it's just fascinating to hear people's stories and how they got to where they got and how they operate on a day to day basis. And it's amazing. It's. It's a really rich industry, like, textured with so many different people who have so many different experiences. Because it's not. I mean, now it's more of like a traditional career path, but it really, like, wasn't in the, you know, years prior.
- [28:24]
A
Yeah, no, for sure. And actually it was Richard Keith Langham who said that to me. His husband, his husband said it to him, said, oh, you, you people, you all you interior designers just want to go, you know, applaud each other and give each other awards and, you know, listen to each other some. Something to that effect.
- [28:38]
B
That's hysterical.
- [28:39]
A
But there again, like, Richard Keith Langham, like, I recently spent time with him and I was like, yeah, I love him. You know, it's so, it's. And, And I learned from him and hearing his stories.
- [28:49]
B
So, yeah, it's so true. What do you think have been the three biggest influences on your aesthetic in your life?
- [28:57]
A
So my mother, the home I grew up in, you know, there's lots of chintz and color. And my mother also took my sister and I antiquing as children. And oh my gosh, I mean, I at the time didn't always love it.
- [29:10]
B
Yeah.
- [29:11]
A
You know, I wanted to be outside. And we have family in England and we would go to England and she'd take me through old homes. But my gosh, that just, it all just sunk in, you know, I mean, and that was just such a huge part of it. And, you know, I now look at my daughter, who I'm putting in the smock dresses and the bows and her hair, and I'm thinking, oh, okay, yeah, history repeats itself.
- [29:31]
B
I know. I do the same thing. My mom used to take me to antiquing flea markets everywhere with her. And I'm an only. So my mom took me everywhere with her. And still, I mean, still we're like, attached at the hip and it leaves such a lasting impact on you, and you don't even realize it at the time. But looking back, I'm like, so much of who I am is informed by those experiences. It's just so formative.
- [29:54]
A
It's so true. It's like you just don't know. And my mom used to give what my sister and I would call the linen lectures, and she would talk about how you had to have nice linens for your table, and, you know, and. And she taught us how to iron them and all these things. And I just remember being like, who I am ever gonna have. What are you talking about? Yeah.
- [30:13]
B
Okay. And now fast forward.
- [30:15]
A
Yeah. When my daughter was born and she came to stay with us for a while, she was like, that's a lot of tablecloths in that closet. And I thought, oh, you're like, well.
- [30:22]
B
Where did I get it from?
- [30:24]
A
I know, I know.
- [30:25]
B
That's amazing.
- [30:26]
A
For sure. Yeah.
- [30:28]
B
Who are some of your style icons?
- [30:31]
A
I mean, I have friends who are style icons, for sure. You know, it's so easy to have, you know, people in the entertainment industry and, you know, in the public eye, and I think nowadays, too, there's just so many people to follow on Instagram that you're just like, well, this is great. And my gosh, I feel like, I don't know. Do you know Nan Philip? But every time she posts something about a product, I'm like, oh, well, now I'm buying this product, man. Thank you.
- [30:55]
B
Nan is the best. Nan and I are friends. She's, like, the sweetest person on the planet, and she has excellent taste.
- [31:01]
A
She does. So I'm like, oh, I need that moisturizer. Yes. I'm like, this is now a problem. And then she's like, I need a shop lesson. I'm like, yeah, because you're making me shot, you know?
- [31:10]
B
Yes. It's so dangerous. I know. I feel like I've gone down such a rabbit hole lately. Like, I got really into substack in the past year, and now I follow all these fashion raiders on substack, and I'm like, I don't need a pair of patent black tall boots. I'm not going to wear them.
- [31:27]
A
Yeah. No, but it's true. And I agree. I've gotten into substack. I Now you know all these fashion people. I. And I read them, and I'm like, oh, well, this skirt's on sale. Let me check out what that looks like, you know? And Bunny's always like, where did you get that? And I'm Like, I don't know this thing. I saw this, you know, this random.
- [31:42]
B
Newsletter that I subscribe to.
- [31:45]
A
I have become really big on the real real lately. I have seen searches and Bunny's like, where did you get. I'm like, the real real. And she's like, how did you. And I'm like, it takes time. You know, it's like shopping for antiques on first dibs. You gotta have time.
- [31:59]
B
It is. It's so dangerous. Like, the real real is just as exciting as finding something at auction. That's incredible. I mean, it's. It's for sure so fun. And I know you're a jewelry girl.
- [32:09]
A
Yes, I am a jewelry girl. And like, like. But I get that again from my mother, you know, And I love following jewelry accounts and. Oh, I love Brent. Neil. Of course.
- [32:18]
B
Same.
- [32:18]
A
There's so many. Yeah, it. It's tough. Instagram just, like, leads you down a dark hole sometimes.
- [32:24]
B
No, it really does. It's so dangerous. I mean, it's a. It's amazing because you can find so many, even vendors, small textile manufacturers, like, things that you would never find otherwise because they're not in print or they're not in a magazine, but you're finding all this incredible stuff.
- [32:41]
A
You know, we all want to say how bad Instagram is, but there's so many of these, like, what you're saying. So much good of, like, you find people that you would never found before.
- [32:50]
B
Do you collect anything?
- [32:52]
A
Tabletop, you know, and I mean, I do love silver. I don't love polishing it, but I love finding unique silver things. You know, salt, pepper shakers.
- [33:02]
B
Yeah, it's great. I love that. Well, now we're gonna get into our take 10, which are our rapid fire questions at the end. What is your favorite food?
- [33:13]
A
Sushi.
- [33:14]
B
You and my husband. My husband's so excited because my. My older one now will eat a cucumber avocado.
- [33:19]
A
That's good.
- [33:20]
B
And he's like, oh, this is the best because I don't eat fish. And he wants someone to eat it with.
- [33:26]
A
That's good.
- [33:27]
B
Favorite drink.
- [33:29]
A
So a Grey Goose and soda with extra lime. Time.
- [33:32]
B
Very refreshing.
- [33:33]
A
Yes.
- [33:34]
B
Favorite film.
- [33:35]
A
Now, this is a tough one, but I would say Auntie Mame. And I also love a room with a view.
- [33:41]
B
Both incredible. I remember seeing Auntie Mame for the first time. I was young and it left such an impression. I mean, just the sets, the costumes, like, everything about it is just.
- [33:50]
A
I'm sorry, but you get the interior design and the fashion, like.
- [33:53]
B
Yes. And the personality. I Mean, she's like, unbelievable. It's. It's such a good movie.
- [33:59]
A
It's so good.
- [34:00]
B
Favorite hotel?
- [34:01]
A
Ballyfin in Ireland.
- [34:03]
B
Dying to go there. I've never been to Ireland, and I want to go so badly. All of the old castles are just incredible.
- [34:09]
A
Yeah. I mean, my husband and I went, and he didn't know what he was getting into. I just was like, I really want to stay here. Like, I've heard so many people talk about it. He's like, okay. And we go and we pull up, and when you. I mean, the service, the. The people who work there are so lovely. Everything in, like, the rooms, everything is just like. And we pull up, everyone comes out to greet you, and we're the only people arriving. And my husband goes, are we at Downton Abbey? And I was like, basically. Basically, this is where we are. So, yeah.
- [34:33]
B
Oh, my God. Sold. That sounds incredible. Favorite city.
- [34:38]
A
So, I mean, I could name a lot of cities, but in my heart of hearts, New York City. I mean, this is my home. I never thought I would live here as long as I have, and I love when I come back. I was away this weekend, and I came back and I was like, oh, yeah, yeah.
- [34:53]
B
Because it feels like home.
- [34:54]
A
Yeah. It's not always easy, and I sometimes get annoyed with it. It's like, you know, it's like a family member, but it's. It. It's home. And, you know, and I love Paris, and I love London, and I love Rome, but I know there's something always about coming back to New York or even that, flying into New York and seeing it. I don't know.
- [35:10]
B
Also, you know, you're a true New Yorker when you say you feel that way when you come back to the city.
- [35:15]
A
Yeah, I know. I know. It's. It's. I never thought I would live in New York. I mean, I grew up in the country. I was always like, nope, I'm not living in a city. And I've lived here longer than I've lived anywhere else. And.
- [35:25]
B
Well, you and Bunny. I mean, Bunny also grew up in the country. There's, like, so many parallels.
- [35:29]
A
Yep. Yep.
- [35:31]
B
Favorite bedding.
- [35:33]
A
So, I love a percale sheet, and there's so many bedding companies. There's so many great options. But we also work a lot with a small company called Casa del Bianco, which is owned by Lupe and Fabrizio, which are the just the most lovely people on the planet and can do anything custom. And it's just always so such a delight to go in there and see.
- [35:53]
B
Them, and I love that. And you guys have such gorgeous, like, betting programs. Like, they're all just so elegant and crisp and look like something you want to dive into.
- [36:02]
A
Well, we call it the bunny bed.
- [36:04]
B
It is. It's a real thing. Like, it's. It's. It's very real. Favorite tea or coffee. And how do you take it?
- [36:10]
A
I do not drink either.
- [36:11]
B
Wow.
- [36:12]
A
Yeah. I have no caffeine, and every once in a while, I'll have a tea if I'm really cold.
- [36:17]
B
Yeah.
- [36:17]
A
But I don't. I love water. I never got into it, and I know if I did, I then want it every day. And I. It was. I already have too many other things that.
- [36:25]
B
Yes. So it's an unnecessary bias. Yeah. Favorite playlist or music to listen to.
- [36:31]
A
So my husband is. He's the one who runs the playlist in the house, and he. He loves everything. And I. It's always so fun because he introduces me to new things when we entertain. I do love something like an Italian dinner party mix, you know, kind of jazzy, but some vocals mixed in here. And there's. But I love music, and we see a lot of live music together and. But he definitely. He runs the. You know, the Sonos.
- [36:54]
B
That's really cute.
- [36:56]
A
Favorite weekend activity time with my husband and daughter. Yeah, we go to Central Park a lot. We're members of the Met Museum. We go there a lot. It's just nice to have that time and not be rushing around. So it's great.
- [37:08]
B
Honestly, the best thing about being in the city with a young kid is just. You can throw them in the stroller. You can go anywhere. They're young enough where you can take them to a museum and they won't complain about it.
- [37:20]
A
Exactly.
- [37:20]
B
Okay. This is the last one, and I think it's the hardest. What is your favorite design book?
- [37:26]
A
Yeah. So I've listened to the podcast, and I was like, oh, how do I even answer this one? So I'm gonna disappoint you. And I'm not really gonna answer it.
- [37:33]
B
Because that's totally fine. I don't think Ben Pentreath answered it either, because it's just impossible.
- [37:39]
A
Well, he did, but he gave some. He gave a few, but they were good answers. And I was like, how do you top any of these people? But not that it's about topping anyone, but I was just like. I. Everyone's, like, mentioned so many good ones. No, it's hard, I have to say. And this is just, like, I'm just so grateful that I work in an office where we have this amazing library that Bunny has collected over time, and there's things that are out of print, you know, so really, when we need inspiration, you just go in there and you just look at the wall and say. And pull something down and. Yeah, that's such a luxury. And I'm always discovering something new. I would think I would.
- [38:10]
B
I've.
- [38:10]
A
I've seen all of them, but there's always something I haven't seen and always something being added. And I think, you know, for young designers coming up, I would say, like, find the books you love. Collect them. I know it's not cheap, but over time, build that library because it's your reference library, and it's. It's what you will go to when you need inspiration or you need a, you know, something to refer to or show a client. It's huge. So I'm so lucky that I have access to that. That.
- [38:38]
B
Yeah, it's amazing. And it's how you learn. I mean, that was how I learned. I, I. Because I didn't go to school, I. I just. Thriftbooks is my best friend. Yeah.
- [38:47]
A
Yeah. No, it's great.
- [38:48]
B
Well, this was literally the most fun ever. I'm so happy that you came on, and I was so excited after I saw you. I've been looking forward to this. A final few words. What are you working on right now? Are there any new projects you can talk about?
- [39:02]
A
Yeah, so I'm working on a really great house with a young client in Connecticut, and she is so stylish and has, like, such a great art collection and is, you know, an art consultant herself. That's really fun because, you know, the art world is something unto itself. Like, if we tried to, you know, educate our clients about art, it's just, you can't keep up with it and do interior design. And so I have such an appreciation for that. And I love when she shows me something new. And so it's this back and forth, but she's got a great eye, and it's been really fun, and so that's great. Great. You know, Bunny and I are working on a hotel project together, and I didn't know that.
- [39:39]
B
That's so exciting.
- [39:40]
A
Yeah. We haven't really started talking about it much, but we're excited about it. And. Yeah. You know, and some apartments in the city and, you know, things. Something in Atlanta and, you know, kind of all over the place, but those are the top two at the moment that are really in the thick of it.
- [39:55]
B
So it's so Fun. I always love following you on Instagram and seeing you. You post the greatest, like, behind the scenes day in the life of an interior designer. I love it.
- [40:04]
A
Well, thank you. I mean, I try. I. It's my. It's also my love of photography. I'm always like, yeah, I just want to take a picture.
- [40:10]
B
You know, I just.
- [40:11]
A
So many pictures, so.
- [40:13]
B
Well, the last question that we always ask everyone, what advice do you have for someone looking to define their own interior style?
- [40:20]
A
You know, just look. Just go and look. Find the things you like. You can even start by, like, what do you wear? You know, what do you. What are you attracted to in clothing? Because that often translates, you know, right over into your interiors. Right.
- [40:34]
B
It does.
- [40:35]
A
You could start looking there and say, and explore what you like. You know, what do you. What are you responding to? And go to museums and, you know, go everywhere. See it. See as much as you can.
- [40:46]
B
Yeah.
- [40:46]
A
And that really helps to, you know, and don't be embarrassed or apologetic about what you like, because it's. There's. There's no wrong answer.
- [40:54]
B
Yes. I think in today's time, people are so afraid to be outside the norms of what they see in an algorithm.
- [41:01]
A
Yeah.
- [41:01]
B
And I feel like the best spaces are the ones that are just completely out of the box of whatever that white beige algorithm is feeding you. And they're. They're unique, they're personal.
- [41:13]
A
Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like you can get stuck in that, like, that fear, that Instagram fear of, like, I don't know, is anyone gonna like this? Like, doesn't matter, you know? Do you like it?
- [41:23]
B
Yes. 100. I love that. That's such good advice. Well, Elizabeth, thank you so much. This was so much fun.
- [41:30]
A
This was very fun.
- [41:31]
B
Where can listeners find you and. And follow you?
- [41:34]
A
So, Elizabeth M. Lawrence on Instagram, and we have the Williams Lawrence Instagram, which I'm on that as well. I don't do it, but I'm involved and, you know, that's where we are.
- [41:45]
B
And I'm going to make a plug for the Create Academy course because it's excellent and I've been watching it myself, and it's so good. And Elizabeth and Bunny are both in it.
- [41:52]
A
It was very fun to do. I mean, it's very much. I mean, Bunny is amazing. I'm. I'm just on the portion of the office side, but that was very fun. And it is a great watch. And Bunny's a great teacher.
- [42:03]
B
It's so. So it's like when after I have a long day and I have no plans and my kids are asleep. I watch it for, like, 40 minutes before bed. It's just so peaceful and, like, nice to watch. I love it.
- [42:14]
A
Okay, I'm gonna tell Bunny. She'll love doing that.
- [42:17]
B
Well, thank you so much for coming on. This was such a delight.
- [42:20]
A
Well, thank you for having me. I'm such a fan.
- [42:23]
B
Likewise, Big time fan. And I hope I get to see you soon.
- [42:26]
A
Yeah, I hope so.
- [42:28]
B
Thanks, Elizabeth.
- [42:29]
A
Thank you.
- [42:30]
B
That's a wrap for this week's episode of Talk Show Shop. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week with more thoughtful discussions and amazing guests. Follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify and YouTube, so you never miss an episode. And of course, follow me at arielokun. See you next week.