← Talk Shop with Ariel Okin: A Fenimore Lane Production
Talk Shop with Ariel Okin: A Fenimore Lane Production
Hannah Weil McKinley and Leah Melby Clinton // On Career Pivots, Entrepreneurship, and Starting a Print Magazine Made By and For Women
00:49:37
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- [00:00]
Hana Weil McKinley
I kind of black out when I'm writing and I almost forget because I have friends who will come up to me in San Francisco and say, or, you know, acquaintances even, and they'll be like, well, I read that thing that you wrote about and I forget that I'm putting it out for other for public consumption. I think sometimes people are maybe surprised or taken aback at the vulnerability, at least people that I know in my close circle. And I think the truth is like, it just, I don't really have a filter when it comes to that. And something about motherhood I think cracked me wide open where it was just like, why aren't more people talking about this? That this is this crazy push pull constantly for the rest of your life. And I couldn't wrap my brain around it. So you write what you know, right?
- [00:44]
Arielle Okin
Welcome to Talkshop. I'm Arielle Okin, a New York based interior designer, writer and editor looking to bring a little bit of magic into our homes every day. After years as a writer and editor in the interiors world, I founded my own editorial site, Fenimore Lane, in 2020 and the TalkShop interview series was born. Each week I delve into the personal experiences of the top interior designers and tastemakers around the globe. For this week's episode, It's a Talk.
- [01:11]
Leah Melby Clinton
Shop first as we welcome a duo, lifelong friends and now co founders, the team behind in kind, Hannah Weil McKinley and Leah Melby Clinton. Hana and Leah first met over a decade ago during their time spent in editorial at popsugar, a pop culture site that covers from fashion to beauty to shopping. After the birth of Hana's first daughter, she felt a seismic shift and began to look for and share more candid stories around motherhood and womanhood across the country. Leah started to kick around an idea of creating a space for community. Then the pandemic hit and the beginnings of In Kind. Took root. Printed twice yearly and available digitally, In Kind is thoughtfully curated and touches on the conversations modern women are having about motherhood, career ambition, personal style, interior design and more. As they say, in kind is a conversation around the things that really matter, focused on capturing, exploring and supporting the questions and dreams that women are having with each other. And I agree as a personal fan. So please join me as we welcome Hana and Leah to the podcast.
- [02:21]
Arielle Okin
Welcome Hana and Leah to the podcast. We're so excited to have you on. This is like a dream guest duo for me today, so I'm so thrilled.
- [02:31]
Leah Melby Clinton
We're excited.
- [02:33]
Arielle Okin
So exciting. But to kick off the conversation, we always ask everyone who comes on the podcast, if both of you could describe your style in three words or less.
- [02:46]
Leah Melby Clinton
Hi, this is Leah. And I would describe my personal style as country aristocrat.
- [02:52]
Arielle Okin
Oh, my God, I love that. And that is so unexpected. It's so good.
- [02:58]
Hana Weil McKinley
It's so good. It's so Leah. Hi, I'm Hana, and I would describe my personal style as boy meets girl. So, like, nothing too precious or, you know, kind of like overly styled or girly. Just always a little bit of something, a little bit of contrast. Tomboy it up a little bit.
- [03:15]
Arielle Okin
I love that. And also not surprising that the editors have the best edited answer for this.
- [03:21]
Leah Melby Clinton
I'm just excited you asked. I feel like I'm always wanting someone to ask because I have the answer and most people aren't normally, like, how would you describe your style? To really succinct away. So I'm like, this is the best. I get to use this somewhere.
- [03:32]
Arielle Okin
I love it. It's a very specific question. So before we get into more about in kind, also, can you guys tell me a little bit individually about your career path? So I'm curious to hear about how you both ended up as editors and was it something you were always interested in?
- [03:49]
Leah Melby Clinton
I always wanted to be a magazine editor. So in that way, it was something like, no anomaly or kind of surprise there I was. Love writing. I've always loved writing. I saved magazines under a box in my bed. I had an AOL zine when I was in middle school. I was just. My high school guidance counselor was kind of like, you need to think about what else you might want to be. And it's like, nope, this is what I want to do. Looking for a college with magazine journalism major. So I was very kind of focused on that. So graduated from school with a my degrees in magazine journalism. This is a random twist, I guess. I studied abroad in Australia and, like, loved it. So I was like, I'm moving to Los Angeles. It's the closest thing to Australia. And if you want to work in magazines, it's just the most stupid. Like, it's a dumb move, but I was, like, very convinced it was possible. I blame a lot of this on, like, Whitney Port and the Hills. Yeah, I went. I sum up an interview with Lisa Love and like, y'all remember from the Hills, where it was like, in that class, I was like, I can do this. Like, I did not get hired. And, like, what would that job have even been? So for like a year, I was in California living my LA dream. I was a manager at Abercrombie, like, just so bizarro. And I was like, this is stupid. Like, I have to go back to New York City.
- [04:57]
Arielle Okin
So funny.
- [04:58]
Leah Melby Clinton
Went back. I got a job at a magazine I was at More, which was for women over 40. Super duper glam. But I think when I look back, I remember feeling, I guess, insecure. You know, it's like, it's not Vogue. It's not Elle. It's like More. But, like, you learn a lot, right? I feel like I wasn't the 20th assistant in the closet. I was doing, you know, still editorial assistant stuff, but was doing more. It was kind of also my first, I think, learning where you're like, gosh, people, it's women over 40 that can buy the expensive handbags that are being advertised in this magazine, not Cosmo or not Vogue. And that was also, I think, my first job where no one wanted to do digital work. You know, it's kind of like, hey, you write fashion stories for the website, Which. Right. I'm 23, writing, like, fashion service stories for women 40 plus.
- [05:43]
Arielle Okin
Right.
- [05:44]
Leah Melby Clinton
But you really. And I think a lot of kind of our contemporaries that were editors, it's like you got forced into digital, really, because print people did not want to do it. It was like the ugly stepchild.
- [05:53]
Arielle Okin
So how the tables have turned.
- [05:55]
Leah Melby Clinton
Totally. So kind of just fell into digital that way, like what you said. I think most of us in editorial world, you kind of bounce around when there's a job opening or a boss moves to a different publication. So I bounced from publication to publication. Just same sort of job, just different places. The kind of end of my editorial career was what you had mentioned. A good friend I was with at Glamour went to Elle and said, oh, there's a job opening up doing branded content. And it was kind of like, gosh, is that will I be leaving editorial life and do I want to do that, or. It felt like it was maybe a new frontier. And so just kind of the opportunity was there, and you're like, I'm going to do it. I really, really liked it. It was a good intersection of marketing and sales and editorial that I learned a lot. That's been instrumental for. In kind. It's been instrumental for my paid day job now. And it also was cool to see. For me, it was my first thing of being like, this is kind of one of my superpowers. I do really well working cross functionally. I do really well. Like the marketer like me and the salesperson like me and my editors like me. So I, you Know, just naturally. It's just something that I was good at, naturally. And not a lot of editors are not good at that. Right. Like, they're very prickly when you get involved with, like, sales people telling them they have to write about thing. Like, it doesn't. Doesn't work well for lots of people. So that was great. And then I, when I was pregnant and kind of my current job, I work for Margot and had chatted with them. I met them through work as a fashion editor and loved the women there, loved the brand and kind of, they were like, we're growing. Like, would you want to come on board? And it's the same thing. You're like, did I manifest this? Like, I wasn't. It wasn't a job description that you were applying for, but it just felt like the universe is telling me this is the right thing and it's, you know, so you just do it kind of jump. When there's a moment where I think it's really nice how you said that, it's almost like it's not luck. It's just there's a moment and if you're just brave enough or willing to accept it and know that you could always. You can always change anything. You could always go back. You could move and take the new job and not like it. And then you're job hunting again.
- [07:45]
Arielle Okin
You know, that's such an important point too. I mean, my mom has always been big on saying that to me. Like, you're not stuck anywhere and it's important to try things, and if you don't like it, you can leave. And I think people kind of get career paralysis sometimes because they're like, what if it's not a good move? And what if I. You know. But then you're not growing and if you're not learning and you hit that ceiling, then you're not growing anymore. And then what is that? You know, does it. Are you then stagnant in where you are? So I think that's a really crucial point too, because I think a lot of people are afraid to make these types of moves.
- [08:19]
Leah Melby Clinton
Absolutely.
- [08:20]
Hana Weil McKinley
I mean, to be totally candid, I think I was one of them. I'm. My career path is different in that I found PopSugar as a 23 year old and it was like at my first. An internship in PR before, which I really didn't like, and it wasn't a good fit. And San Francisco is hard in terms of fashion. And like Leah, I think I always knew I wanted to do, you know, I wanted to be in fashion. I wallpapered my bedroom in editorials when I was, you know, in high school.
- [08:47]
Arielle Okin
And thought, oh, my God, I did that too.
- [08:50]
Hana Weil McKinley
It was the dream. I just do this all day. And I also love to write. I loved, you know, writing. I wrote for my college paper. My fourth grade teacher said, you're gonna write a book, which hasn't happened, but I'm. We'll see.
- [09:02]
Arielle Okin
I'm manifesting it for you. I feel it for both of you. I really do.
- [09:06]
Hana Weil McKinley
That would be cool. You know, I moved to San Francisco, actually. My husband and I met in college and he's from here. So I moved out. And I was just like, where are the fashion jobs? What am I going to do? And I ended up not to date myself, but finding a Popsugar job. Ad in Craigslist.
- [09:24]
Arielle Okin
Oh, my God, I love it.
- [09:26]
Hana Weil McKinley
In editorial assistant position. And it just meant assisting across the department. So I got in and I was like, sort of doing any number of things for every site. And at that point, their verticals were broken up by. I don't know if you remember this, but it was like Popsugar, Buzz Sugar, Fab Sugar was the fashion one. The mom vertical, which I ended up like, this is way pre kids. I was making like meal murals in my kitchen and photographing them. And then, you know, I stayed at popsugar for 12 years. I moved to New York. I worked in the New York office for five years, which is where I met Leah. And we overlapped for a year and a half or so. I think Leah, before you jumped. But I just. In the back of my mind, I was like, I am going to move back to San Francisco and there is going to be no other job. Like, I will. I want to be at a place where I can continue to do this and where will I do that? And I think that the part also that kept me there was that there was just so much change and growth constantly. Like Popsugar. When I joined, I think I was one of, I don't know, under 20 editors, you know, in the whole editorial department is 2009. And they were just growing so fast. And they were doing video and we were doing experiential, and we were, you know, at Fashion Week and doing activations. And everything just seemed to be growing in all directions. So there was no lack of kind of newness or no lack of things to try and get your hands on.
- [10:47]
Arielle Okin
And that was kind of like ahead of its time for then too.
- [10:51]
Hana Weil McKinley
Yeah. I think Brian and Lisa, who founded the company, are Both really, you know, like, they're. Brian is such a tech guy that he was really ahead of so much of the content and commerce initiative. So, you know, just kind of always thinking of what was. What was next, where media was going to go, and it always felt very exciting. I mean, Leah, you remember, like, in the New York office, we were always filming live segments in the middle of, you know, and like, we were market editors and going to appointments and sourcing product to then put on camera and host the segment. So it was like you were touching so many pieces of it.
- [11:25]
Arielle Okin
Yeah, it's like an education unto itself.
- [11:27]
Hana Weil McKinley
It was huge. It was a really, really huge learning opportunity. And by the time I left, I was managing the fashion team remotely from San Francisco and also running the shop team, which was the first content and commerce team. And then I went to the editorialist for a little bit and was the editorial director there, heading up. You know, they're mostly luxury fashion, so it was a little bit of a change, but still great to be in the fashion world. And then, you know, stayed there for a little less than a year. And I feel like I learned a lot of great things from both places. And now it feels like media is just kind of a circus. And I'm happy to sort of bow out of the search game and celebrity game and really kind of use the skills to do brand consulting, which has been part of what I'm doing on the side with. With in kind. And just also, you know, there's. There's so much to do with in kind as well, so.
- [12:17]
Arielle Okin
Well, let's talk about in kind, because, I mean, I am so inspired. Obviously, this is an interior design podcast, and you guys cover interiors in the magazine beautifully, but you also cover things like the intersection of career and motherhood, personal style, sort of all the contours of a modern woman's life. And I think you guys do it so beautifully. I'm. I am always just struck by the way your content is smart, it's edited. It touches me at the point of life that I'm in right now. And I feel like a lot of our listeners are sort of also in that point in their lives. And so tell me of how you guys sort of came together to start the magazine and where you see it going.
- [12:58]
Leah Melby Clinton
I think, too, Ariel, you've been so lovely to us since the beginning. So I went to on air say thank you.
- [13:04]
Arielle Okin
But also, I think, no, it's genuine. I just really. I think it's like, excellent content.
- [13:09]
Leah Melby Clinton
Thank you. But. And I mean, a lot of I think Hannah and I talk about this frequently. It's like you meet people who are so kind and generous, and it just. I mean, it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, but it's also made so such the difference kind of when you're trying to grow something from absolutely nothing, feeling like you have a cheerleader who sees that thing. And you. I mean, I think you were in, like, issue three, right? And we've just grown and gotten, like, a little glossier and a little more polished and pulled together than, like, those early issues. It's like you do. You did it and said yes when we weren't, you know, even as glossy as we've gotten. So. And I think it's like what you said, it's almost for, you know, the three of us on this chat, I think our readers are kind of probably communities on our own. The Venn diagram of your life just feels like those circles have got smushed together for our generation this time of life, you know, and it's, I think, partly why we started that as Hannah and I saw that with ourselves. It's like all these different parts of you that are still, you know, the. The core of who you are. It's like that you are a mother, you're a professional, you're a, you know, a wife, you're a daughter, you're a friend. There are all these things that could kind of live in their own vertical, like, in website parlance, right? It's all the same. I'm still me. At the end of the day, you guys are still you. And so wanting to figure out a way that could speak to it, and even the interior is part of it. It felt like, you know, for a Han and I to not be in that world professionally. As you age, those still, you suddenly, you have a home or you have a bigger apartment, you have some money to spend on stuff, you suddenly care. And if you love style, you realize you do care about wallpaper or, like, what's hanging on the wall in a way that I just. That was never my thing. And I think a lot of our, you know, we all kind of age into it. It's something new to shop for, which is always exciting. So anyways, I think that was kind of our shared ethos. And, you know, Hannah, like, she. Hana's a beautiful writer, and so I think that zine, like, truly, she's amazing, right? And, like, I'm a good writer, and I. So when. Well, but so if I think someone's a good writer, you know, I'm like, Hannah, there's no one that I think writes as well as Hana.
- [15:00]
Arielle Okin
And so Hana's essays have made me cry, just for the record. So I think if you haven't read her writing, it is so beautiful and really captures the essence of motherhood, like, in a way that I haven't found.
- [15:12]
Leah Melby Clinton
She's a crier maker.
- [15:14]
Arielle Okin
She makes a crier maker.
- [15:16]
Leah Melby Clinton
It's not nice, Hannah.
- [15:18]
Hana Weil McKinley
It's just it. I kind of black out when I'm writing and I almost forget because I have friends who will come up to me in San Francisco and say. Or, you know, acquaintances even, and they'll be like, well, I read that thing that you wrote about, and I forget that I'm putting it out for other. For public consumption.
- [15:33]
Arielle Okin
Yeah.
- [15:34]
Hana Weil McKinley
I think sometimes people are maybe surprised or taken aback at the vulnerability, at least people that I know in my close circle. And I think the truth is, like, it just. It just kind of. I don't really have a filter when it comes to that. And something about motherhood, I think, cracked me wide open where it was just like, why aren't more people talking about this? That this is this crazy push pull constantly for the rest of your life? And I couldn't wrap my brain around it. So I think a lot of that, you know, comes from that place of like, just, I don't know, you write what you know. Right.
- [16:10]
Leah Melby Clinton
Well, and. And like, we're not.
- [16:11]
Arielle Okin
We're.
- [16:12]
Leah Melby Clinton
Sometimes we're asked kind of if it's like, it's for, you know, only for mothers or whatnot. And it's not. And I think we try to make sure there's content that's not just about motherhood, but, like, to Hannah's point, it's such a big part of your every day in your life and what you're thinking and wondering about and scared of. It's just like, it can't help but be. And I think the very beginning of in kind. And so that first zine was what Hana just said, right. Of being like, why is no one writing about this? It felt like it was either stuff for, like, stay at home moms who wanted crafts and like, you know, very, like, servicey kind of educational stuff.
- [16:41]
Hana Weil McKinley
Or like, mom with a glass.
- [16:43]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yeah. Like the bad mom stuff. And you're like, but where are the moms like us that are very sincere about all of this stuff?
- [16:49]
Arielle Okin
And where are the Taipei moms?
- [16:50]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yeah. So, I mean, I think that's kind of how it started. And then it was really that feeling of why I think we came together, that a that zine. Knowing Hana was such a beautiful writer was like, could you write something to just be in the zine that I have no proper plan for? And then the idea of seeing there being some sort of legs, it just felt like there's no one in the world who I respect as much as a writer and as a simpatico to me, like, as Hana, which we saw for all those wine dates. Right. Like coming from coast to coast, where we're different people in so many ways. But really it's so interesting when you find someone. It's not like it's your best friend necessarily. It's just someone you're like. We see things very similarly. And I think it's been really fascinating for us. I think. Right. In total candor, it's like, if you look back, I think Hannah and I have very. We have really similar skill sets. So, like, in trying to build a business, neither of us are like the operational whiz or the finance person. Like, I'll chat with people for the magazine. And a lot of founding duos, they're very clearly that Person A is good at abc, you know, Person B at.
- [17:47]
Arielle Okin
Xyz, that's like Laura, who's our operations director, and we've been working together for 10 years. I mean, we started the company together. She is like the math, logistics, operations whiz. And I'm like the creative side, but similar to you two. We met while we were at home. Polish. Just realized we were kindred spirits, finished each other's sentences and had kids at the same time. Like, we're very much on the same life path in that sense. And it's like a really beautiful thing when you find that.
- [18:15]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yeah. You know, and it means. I think it's like there are parts we've had to figure out as we try to grow the business of. What do you do when somebody's not the natural, like, numbers cruncher. But I think looking back, it's kind of that, you know, there's something so magical when you find someone who sees content or sees the world or see. Or wants to have conversations like you do. It's worth kind of figuring out those tricky bits of building a business because there's something really special and magical about that, I think.
- [18:40]
Arielle Okin
Absolutely. And how amazing that you both. I mean, I think it's very rare, especially in the editorial world, to be completely on the same page about everything and to have this one united vision about what it is that you're growing. So I think that's harder to find than someone who can crunch numbers. I think it's really beautiful. I also think, just in general, the way that you put the content into the magazine is stunning. I mean, the magazine itself is visually beautiful.
- [19:06]
Hana Weil McKinley
Well, that's. Yeah, a thousand percent.
- [19:09]
Arielle Okin
It's beautiful.
- [19:11]
Hana Weil McKinley
That's the collaging and the vision. I think, you know, when Leah asked me to be a part of In Kind, she really already had a vision for the aesthetic, which is so beautiful. And I think the collages just to have given it such a life.
- [19:28]
Arielle Okin
Yeah, I think it's such a big part of the brand, I think.
- [19:31]
Leah Melby Clinton
Well, I wonder if, like, interior people maybe know this the most. If it's like your things are born out of necessity or whatever the phrase is kind of where like, that the. I mean, the zine. And then especially those first issues, we, like, we don't do original photography. We don't have, you know, so you're like, I'm gonna collage things. Like, what's better than a mood board? So it kind of was, like, just born out of being like, okay, what can I do for free? I love that. That I think, has become something we both really love. And. And I think a lot of credit, too. We work with our, like, creative director is this amazing woman named Natalia, who helps a lot with some of the more polished aesthetic. Again, if you went from the zine to issue two, I did in. In design and, like, passed off to her for some help. And I remember I sent her that first zine. I remember being so sheepish about it, like, when she was. You know, when you're a graphic designer, being like, you must look at this and want to, like, cringe at how bad it is. And I was like, it'd be so dreamy if, like, one day you could help, like, lay this out and design it, thinking that that was insane. You know what I mean? Like, I. How would I ever afford this woman's fees to help us?
- [20:34]
Arielle Okin
That makes me so happy, though, because, you know, a lot of our listeners are people who are doing something on the side from a day job or are people who hope to one day be an entrepreneur and, like, have those thoughts. And just knowing your story and how you guys made this happen and knowing that, like, it's still kind of a side project.
- [20:53]
Hana Weil McKinley
Yeah.
- [20:53]
Arielle Okin
For you guys, like, it's fascinating to me because it feels so big, and it has grown so much and has grown such name recognition. You guys should both be really proud of yourselves. It's amazing.
- [21:04]
Leah Melby Clinton
Thank you.
- [21:05]
Hana Weil McKinley
I think, like, anything, you know, at the very beginning, it is crazy. I think when Leah was like, would Natalia ever do this for us? And we're about to publish number nine, which feels huge, I think. Right? Like you look back.
- [21:17]
Arielle Okin
Yeah, well, because it's biannual for those who don't know, it's biannual. So it's, you know, that's spanning years, but it's consistency.
- [21:24]
Leah Melby Clinton
Right.
- [21:24]
Hana Weil McKinley
And it's kind of like it's just that one foot in front of the other. Even when it feels like, why am I doing this? What's the purpose? Who's listening? I feel like I woke up this morning and saw like on Julia Borrolsheimer's thing that she had posted like 3000 blogs and it was like she's like, I've been doing this for however long. And I was just like, wow. Like I remember growing up with her being a blogger and you kind of. I don't know, I don't think we see how much everyone else is trying and how much everyone else is working.
- [21:52]
Arielle Okin
In the background behind the scenes.
- [21:55]
Hana Weil McKinley
That's one of the things I love from our. So many of the conversations we have are other women, you know, female founders or entrepreneurs or women with, you know, full time gigs trying to do something on the side. And it's been like, I feel like the biggest lesson is just like consistency, continuing to show up for that thing that you want to build even when it feels like there's no audience for it or you don't know where it's going to go. I don't know. That's the. I think that's been the biggest lesson.
- [22:22]
Arielle Okin
What's that saying, build the house and they will come. I think I messed that up, but it's true. Well, let's talk a little bit about design also, because you do cover design really beautifully. You feature some really gorgeous interior spaces in the magazine. What is your favorite thing about working with designers, writing about design, covering it in the magazine?
- [22:42]
Leah Melby Clinton
My favorite is probably actually like the story side of the people. I feel like we've featured some women recently who it's like this is their second career, you know, like they had.
- [22:51]
Arielle Okin
It's like me were.
- [22:53]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yeah. People. The last issue we featured Hema Prasad, who was like a big time lawyer kind of, you know, and then she's now a designer. And I would have no idea. I don't know what I'm looking at, but like it looks like someone who's been doing this forever and it's the only thing she could ever think of doing in number nine, which is going to Be here. This October, we featured Mandy Chang. She was a set designer, I think, and kind of her. She was like, I was just tired of my sets getting struck. And so, you know, someone kind of said about the luck thing. Someone asked you to do a design project and it works or whatever. So I think that I've actually loved that of seeing how many people there was this creative germ in them, you know, like a little seed. And kind of whether it was kind of there in their day job or for, like, Hema, it wasn't at all. And just, like, the things happened. Yeah. And I just think that's fascinating and why there's so many of them in the. In the, like, design world.
- [23:42]
Arielle Okin
There are a lot of women. I don't. It's fascinating. I mean, I. I mean, I went and got my master's in public affairs and then pivoted. You know, I was doing this on the side because friends would ask me for help, you know, when we moved to the city. And it just. It's amazing how things can come to you in your personal life that you can get so lit up by that they then become your professional life. And it feels like such a gift.
- [24:09]
Leah Melby Clinton
Another thing that's a favorite for me is I think I love reading, like, shelter magazines are be. You know, they're beautiful, and I feel like I'm tearing pages out. So inspired. But I also feel like I read them and you're like, where are the real people? And, like, where the heck are the children? And, like, who is this for real? And I think you've. When we've done some of your stories, I think we've talked a little bit about designing for children. We did a piece with Becky Melson on when she did her own, like, nursery, and it's so nice.
- [24:33]
Arielle Okin
Which was such a beautiful piece about postpartum, too, and how that tied in.
- [24:38]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yes, yes, yes. I think it's like, all of our content, really, you want to kind of be honest and share this with, like, each other of, like, people. Life is hard or, you know, these things. It's not all pretty, like, icing on the surface or whatever. And the interior stuff, I just find it so interesting and relatable when pros are able to say, like, yeah, but if people really have kids that are destructive, you know, like, that doesn't. Some people's kids can, like, respectful of that upholstery, and other people cannot. So this is what we do.
- [25:06]
Arielle Okin
Most kids cannot. You know, they're kids, and that's why they're kids. And you know, 99% of our clients are young families. So it's something that we're always, always, always taking into consideration when we're sourcing and putting design boards together. Because you have to design for using the good stuff, but also making it practical so that no one is afraid to go in any room. Like every room should be used and every room should be filled with day to day activity. But it shouldn't be where it feels so precious, like you said, even with your wardrobe, where you're just too afraid to use it. Yeah, kids are messy 100%. Do you guys have any design rules that you follow or ones that you think are mean to be broken? And that can apply to style too, because I know you guys are more on that side also.
- [25:54]
Hana Weil McKinley
I really, I mean, for me, it's really just nothing too precious. And I really try to follow my instincts. If something, you know, really speaks to me, I try to figure out how to incorporate it, even if it seems a little wild. And I think that's true of style and how I dress. And also home and interior spaces is like, there's a reason why I'm so drawn to this.
- [26:17]
Arielle Okin
Yeah, that's like a big topic right now too. You know, everyone's talking about. Has taste disappeared? Are we all following an algorithm?
- [26:25]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yeah.
- [26:26]
Arielle Okin
And I think it's so important to remain fully intact and in conversation with your personal style.
- [26:32]
Leah Melby Clinton
Well, and. And I think the point of personal style, probably it's wardrobe and interiors or any. Any way of using that term. Right. It's like it should make you happy. I think it should make you feel kind of like, dreamy. We wrote a pair of essays. I forget which issue it was in, where it was like sort of our takes on it. And for me, told you guys, it's Country Aristocrat. It's my personal style. I want to feel like I'm like walking in a grand English home in like my ran suburban Pennsylvania. But so it's like for me, if I can wear a long dress or skirt that sweeps on a stair behind me, walking up, I feel so happy. So, you know, it's like yours in the same way. Like these little things that, you know, don't. But if you see it and you're like, I feel like this is my version of an English country house. It makes me feel really joyous. And I think the thing that we talk a lot about, and probably you can apply it to interiors too, is that idea of like, not saving the good stuff. And I hate dry cleaning. So if it's a dry clean only thing. I feel like I'm kind of getting that out of my closet. But when you. Things that are not directly normally yet are kind of fancy, like wear them for the stupid Tuesday zoom when you're just working. I feel like people in my kids school think I'm like either crazy or like super fashioning because like all the other moms are in like their workout clothes. I'm like, I'm wearing, I'm just wearing clothes. Like if this was New York, it wouldn't be weird.
- [27:43]
Arielle Okin
I agree. I mean, I feel that way about using our china, you know, using our good china, even when it's not a big holiday, you know, those things are meant to be enjoyed. And if it's something that you cherish and hold dear, doesn't it expand your happiness if you're utilizing it on a day to day basis?
- [28:00]
Leah Melby Clinton
And it matters. And beauty matters.
- [28:03]
Hana Weil McKinley
You know, I think the thing I've realized about that too is that having. I think this is my side of that essay that we. Lia and I did these pairs of essays on personal style. And I was someone who kind of lost my way during COVID where I was like, what am I getting dressed for? Like, I do better with a little bit of an audience. Right. And I realized my daughters are paying attention and also I'm paying attention to them. And I love their enthusiasm for fashion. And it gave me more enthusiasm to see how delighted they were by their own closets and their own choices. And also, you know, vice versa, how they reacted when I was like fully dressed and not wearing my leggings or whatever.
- [28:44]
Arielle Okin
Yes, that's so interesting and true. My girls know that, you know, they'll. If I'm getting ready for dinner or something, they know I'm leaving the house. There's such a shift. Like they, they know something's about to happen because they can identify that. Like, oh, they'll be like, why do you, why do you look fancy? Where are you going?
- [29:01]
Hana Weil McKinley
Right? It's funny and. But, but I think the same is true of home. Like you're saying to use the good china and to, you know, do, you know, maybe set the table or use place. And I think kids notice that stuff and it's like everyday stuff that makes it feel. And you don't, you don't have to save it for special occasions. You can make every day feel special if you lean into some of that, you know, just kind of fanfare, even if there's no occasion for it.
- [29:27]
Arielle Okin
Yeah, I love that. What do you think Your homes say about you we have kids, we have.
- [29:34]
Leah Melby Clinton
Dogs and kids in my house.
- [29:36]
Arielle Okin
It's like, me too. I have like a mix of my kids toys and then Charlie's toys on the floor in the family room.
- [29:43]
Hana Weil McKinley
I would say we're a work in progress, but I think we're warm and I think we celebrate each other in our home and we don't. My husband and my nickname for each other, we dated for 10 years before we got married and we're coming up on our 10 year anniversary. So we've been like 20 years and our nickname for each other was always Dino. I don't know where it came from, but we have dinos, like small like figurines. We commissioned an artist to paint like things like that little like dinosaur Easter eggs all around our house. I love homes that feel personal. And I think all my friends homes and the ones I love the most are the places you can tell that like, you know, again, it's just a mark of their personal style and who they are that you go in and you say this feels like you.
- [30:23]
Arielle Okin
Absolutely.
- [30:24]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yeah. I wonder if I would say like creative just because it's a little different. I feel like I'm kind of that personal style thing. You're drawn to what you're drawn to that isn't necessarily a trend or something you feel like you had to put there. We. I just put on my Instagram story the other day. I have like a big cork board that had been propped up in my closet that I was like. I told my husband, I was like, I think I should do a family vision board. I'm very into vision boards. And he was like, okay, so now we have a cork board in our living room. And trying to explain this to my four and a half year old, I was like, you put on photos of things you want more of in your life. And she was like, okay, let me get stuff. So her contributions as of yet have been a photo of her getting her first ever gumball because she wants more gumballs. And like insane like Barbie esque, knee high bow, pink sandals taken from like backstage at a fashion week shoot. She's like, and I want more fancy shoes. I was like, like, okay. Like this is kind of what a vision board is.
- [31:15]
Arielle Okin
Same girl. Me too, Allegra. Me too. That's so cute. That's also like the cutest activity to do with a kid. Like, the answers must be incredible.
- [31:24]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yeah, I mean I'm so. I'm collage by nature, but it's like, I think I'm Hoping when it gets put together, I think it'll look nice. Right. Like, because that's the thing about vision boards. Sometimes I think it's like a nice cork board with stuff. Like, I guess I'm. For me, I think it could also just feel very. Like, that is pure energy coming off of cork, like, hitting your face. Well, if.
- [31:43]
Arielle Okin
If you are one of those people who made those collages growing up, which I was, and I think so many people who are in the creative world were. You know, it's really just a visual representation of what you're drawn to and what's going on in your brain. And so to do one in that way, I think, is actually, like, so sweet because your kids are in it, and it becomes, like, this amalgamation of what everybody is drawn to in the house.
- [32:09]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yeah. I mean, I just love a vision board. I feel like it's. I have an old one. I'm, like, looking at it. It's so fascinating, like, years later, to look at it and be like, oh, these things came true, you know?
- [32:20]
Arielle Okin
I know. I found one that I was in high school. My mom kept all of our stuff. When my parents sold our house outside of Philly, they put everything in storage for, like, 10 years. And then I found a vision board that I had made for, like, a school project when I was a senior in high school. And it had pictures of New York, it had the Vogue logo. It had interiors photos. It had everything I didn't even realize that I wanted at 18. And so much of it is where I went. And it was fascinating to look at 15, 16 years later. I was like, you just don't really realize that there's so much innate intuition inside of you and that if you just sort of quiet yourself down and listen to it, you kind of know where you want to go sometimes.
- [33:04]
Hana Weil McKinley
I feel like so much of being an adult is like, getting back to the instincts you had as a child and just listen to that more.
- [33:11]
Arielle Okin
Yes. You know, it's so fascinating. I learned how to do transcendental meditation last year. I love it, and it totally transformed so much for me. But one of the most fascinating things that I think about the practice is they kind of encourage you to approach each meditation as if you're, you know, approaching it with, like, a childlike sense of wonder. And that's so fascinating for creative people. I think it really helps you unlock that well of inspiration and creativity that you kind of lose as you become an adult and, like, you know, the real world seeps in.
- [33:42]
Hana Weil McKinley
So true. I'm Also a transcendental meditator. I need to do it more. But my dad has been meditating his whole life, basically since law school. And when we were I two older siblings and when each of us were in our senior year in high school, my dad, as a gift before we went to college, got each of us TM certified.
- [34:01]
Arielle Okin
That's incredible.
- [34:02]
Hana Weil McKinley
Yeah. He was like, you're about to go to college. You need to have this as a tool. It's the greatest gift. And I did not fully appreciate it, I think until I was very much post college and into adulthood, maybe even after I had my kids. I was like, oh, gosh, this is such a gift.
- [34:17]
Arielle Okin
Yeah, no, it is. I mean it's really what a tool to have in your life. Toolbox.
- [34:22]
Hana Weil McKinley
Yeah.
- [34:23]
Arielle Okin
Do you have any favorite places to shop for home? I know you guys both have previous market editor experience.
- [34:30]
Leah Melby Clinton
I love ebay, period. And I love like antiquey stuff, but not in like a not the chic way. My father in law is an auctioneer.
- [34:39]
Arielle Okin
I love auctions.
- [34:40]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yeah. And like not a posh fancy auction, like really a Pennsylvania country auction. So I just love.
- [34:46]
Arielle Okin
And by the way, the fancy auction people find the good stuff.
- [34:49]
Leah Melby Clinton
They're there. Yeah, they're there with me at like the random. Random firehouse in Pennsylvania. But yeah, I just, I. Hanna, I'm curious what you're going to say. I think when you love shopping, it's like that thrill of the hunt kind of thing. Like at home it just feels like the most exciting too. You go into random places and you could find nothing and then you're like, that's the thing I've been looking for.
- [35:06]
Hana Weil McKinley
No, totally. Gosh, I am a big one Kings Lane fan. I feel like we could just be on that site scrolling through pages.
- [35:13]
Arielle Okin
They do a good job of editing.
- [35:15]
Hana Weil McKinley
They really do. I mean, we live in San Francisco and I like sort of like a little bit of a laid back. I like Serena and Lily for some stuff. Our wallpaper in our dining room is Serena and Lily. I feel like I love their sort of just like easy, very livable vibe.
- [35:29]
Arielle Okin
Yeah. We're big Serena and Lily fans at aoi. We use it in like every project.
- [35:34]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yeah.
- [35:34]
Hana Weil McKinley
And then I mean, you know, I love finding eclectic things from secondhand or just combing the Internet. I actually will say I really like Zara Home for some stuff.
- [35:44]
Arielle Okin
They have great stuff.
- [35:45]
Hana Weil McKinley
I feel like they've gotten really good. Like I will just find like baskets there that I like and like.
- [35:50]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yeah.
- [35:50]
Hana Weil McKinley
Like tabletop stuff, all kinds of ladders. Randomly.
- [35:54]
Arielle Okin
We use it a lot for shoots when we style. There's such great stuff from Zara home.
- [35:59]
Hana Weil McKinley
Yeah. I will be looking, like, on Zara for myself for whatever clothes that I'm throwing in my cart.
- [36:07]
Arielle Okin
And I know Zara is so good. It's like, once I start, I try not to scratch the edge. And then once I get on there, I'm like, oh, my God, I have to stop. It's so bad.
- [36:14]
Hana Weil McKinley
I really tried to give it up. And then I've been shopping for my girls from Zara.
- [36:18]
Arielle Okin
Yeah, well, they have the best kids clothes.
- [36:20]
Hana Weil McKinley
This is so good. So then I'll randomly find something for myself and be like, okay, fine, I will going to do this, but I will.
- [36:26]
Leah Melby Clinton
I know.
- [36:26]
Arielle Okin
It's like a guilty pleasure.
- [36:27]
Hana Weil McKinley
Yeah.
- [36:28]
Arielle Okin
For both of you. What do you think the three biggest influences on your aesthetic in your life have been?
- [36:33]
Hana Weil McKinley
It's a really good question. I mean, I grew up spending a lot of time in Maine. That's where my family has a summer house and pretty much where my family is full time now. And I think even though I'm really drawn to trends, because I think just the fashion editor in me is always excited about what's going to be on the Runway, what there is how to incorporate something new with, like, the classic stuff. I still have such a soft spot for that, like, just kind of like coastal classic aesthetic, at least when it comes to fashion. And then I really want to say, oddly, Jenna Lyons, Like, I just feel like watching her when I was fashion editor and she was at Jew, like, yeah. I just think the way she mixed high and low and really kind of pioneered that just, like, downtown cool with like, the sort of, you know, bits of tulle or whatever. She was. She just was so creative. So cool. I feel like she has such a lasting influence in my head. Like, those images of her on the red carpet or, you know, sitting in her apartment. I think when her first apartment was photographed, like, that just, like, lives in my brain.
- [37:42]
Arielle Okin
That bathroom is, like, one of the most iconic.
- [37:44]
Hana Weil McKinley
Yes.
- [37:45]
Leah Melby Clinton
I think I would say ballet. I studied ballet pretty seriously all through, like, my childhood, you know, teen years and stuff. So I think that that feeling of some drama and, like, very feminine and kind of that idea of, like, full skirts and, like, there, I feel like in kind of classic ballet, when you're younger, it's like they have those, like, pretty little elastic bands that go right at the natural waist. Like, just that kind of, like, femininity and the straight back and a beautiful neck. Just like, that kind of Feeling, I think probably weds itself through a lot of my, like the sort of dresses I love and then probably with apparel and home. I think maybe just as a nerdy kind of kid, like reading those books with like the English country houses sort of things, like just that idea of if I could snap my fingers, you know, and live anywhere, it would be in a big old like country pile somewhere. When I think back to like my senior year prom dress had like a bustle. Like I was this nerdy kid who didn't. I feel like all the cool kids are in like, you know, sequins and like bright colors and I love that. Somewhat sexy. I was like, just so weird. But like, even still today I think if you let me wear a bustle, I'd be like, okay, like a hoop skirt.
- [38:57]
Arielle Okin
But there's something so beautiful in that because that is confidence and like self assuredness in your own personal style and taste. And that makes me so happy. Like I love that story. I'm like smiling thinking about that. It's so cute.
- [39:14]
Hana Weil McKinley
I am too, because it's so Leah.
- [39:16]
Arielle Okin
I love it. Well, we always end the podcast with our rapid fire questions, which have nothing to do with design, but, well, some sort of do. But I always like to ask them because I feel like you get a little insight into the people that we're talking to. So I'm going to ask both of you and you can just rapid fire back. What is your favorite food?
- [39:36]
Leah Melby Clinton
Pizza or saltines.
- [39:37]
Arielle Okin
Saltines. I love that.
- [39:40]
Hana Weil McKinley
A really good New York bagel with like chive, cream cheese, onion, nova, like, the works.
- [39:47]
Arielle Okin
Whenever I hear saltines, I immediately think of that episode of Sex and the City where she's like stacking them with jelly and eating them.
- [39:53]
Hana Weil McKinley
Yes.
- [39:54]
Leah Melby Clinton
I don't, I don't know if I've ever seen that one, but I need to.
- [39:57]
Arielle Okin
Oh, I'm going to send it to you.
- [39:58]
Leah Melby Clinton
Saltines are just so good.
- [39:59]
Arielle Okin
They're so good. They were also like my pregnancy comfort food. Like I had them in every handbag. They, they were like, the crumbs were like strewn everywhere in my clothes. They were like my, they were my.
- [40:11]
Hana Weil McKinley
Security blanket all over my nightstand. All I can think I was just.
- [40:15]
Arielle Okin
Like in my sheets because I had them. Like, you know, I was eating, waking up at 3am and like eating saltines. Favorite drink?
- [40:23]
Leah Melby Clinton
A white wine spritzer.
- [40:25]
Arielle Okin
Oh, so crisp and delicious.
- [40:29]
Hana Weil McKinley
An aperol spritz or a very, very, very dirty martini.
- [40:32]
Arielle Okin
I like all three of those. So I'm with you on all of that. Favorite film Daddy's Home, too. I'm dying. That's amazing.
- [40:44]
Hana Weil McKinley
I have so many for so many reasons, but the one that I could watch on repeat forever, I think is Only you with Robert Downey Jr. And Marissa Tomei.
- [40:52]
Leah Melby Clinton
It's like the.
- [40:53]
Hana Weil McKinley
If you haven't seen it, you have to see it. It takes place in Italy, and it's just like, the best kind of, like, late 90s.
- [41:00]
Arielle Okin
Oh, my God. I have to look it up. I haven't seen it.
- [41:02]
Hana Weil McKinley
You have to. Her wardrobe is also. I think that was very influential in my own personal style develop. She's just perfect in that movie.
- [41:11]
Arielle Okin
Oh, my God. I have to see it.
- [41:13]
Leah Melby Clinton
You also have to watch Daddy's Home too, but it's a Christmasy movie.
- [41:15]
Arielle Okin
Oh, my God.
- [41:16]
Leah Melby Clinton
So save it for Christmas.
- [41:17]
Arielle Okin
I love a holiday movie more than anything. And also, whenever I hear Marisa Tomei, I immediately think Seinfeld. Favorite hotel.
- [41:25]
Hana Weil McKinley
I have such wonderful memories. My husband and I went on a trip right before we decided we were gonna start trying to have a baby. It was like, the last, like, big trip we took together, and we went to Japan and then to Thailand, just, like, the best trip ever. But we stayed only two nights in Kyoto, but we stayed at the Ritz there. And it is the. It is just, like, the most stunning place in the most stunning place. Like, Kyoto is incredible. And then on top of it to be there, they just. They have this incredible, like, tempura bar downstairs that has, like, tempura that will ruin you for any other once you're back in the state, like, and the rooms are, like, beautiful and kind of traditional. But also, I mean, it was just. It was absolute heaven.
- [42:11]
Arielle Okin
Going on. That last trip before you know you're going to start a family is one of the most special trips. We went to Napa, and I just always, like, think of it. It's just such a special time in life before it's like you're in limbo, and it's like. It's just a special time. Favorite city.
- [42:29]
Leah Melby Clinton
New York.
- [42:30]
Hana Weil McKinley
San Francisco.
- [42:33]
Arielle Okin
Diametrically opposed. Favorite bedding.
- [42:37]
Hana Weil McKinley
I guess Parachute.
- [42:39]
Leah Melby Clinton
I think maybe Brooklyn. In.
- [42:41]
Arielle Okin
They're both great. Tea or coffee. And how do you take it?
- [42:45]
Leah Melby Clinton
Coffee. Half and half.
- [42:46]
Hana Weil McKinley
Mm. I have been now a really for, like, the last 10 years. I switched to matcha lattes, and in the last two months, I'm back to coffee, and I'm drinking it just like that.
- [43:00]
Arielle Okin
Wow. What is your favorite playlist?
- [43:05]
Leah Melby Clinton
I like 70s yacht music.
- [43:08]
Arielle Okin
Yes. I'm here for that.
- [43:11]
Hana Weil McKinley
For you. I don't know I'm like a Paul Simon, James Taylor, like, middle of the day kind of thing. If that's, like, if I'm working or driving.
- [43:23]
Arielle Okin
Yeah. Favorite weekend activity, Sonoma, with my kids.
- [43:27]
Hana Weil McKinley
We go up to my husband's family place, and we're like. Like, in the pool or at the garden.
- [43:32]
Arielle Okin
It's so nice.
- [43:33]
Hana Weil McKinley
Like, take the little gator thing out around the property and go. There's, like a horse down the street that we go feed. And it's like, it's the best escape from the city. Like, when you're in the city and this just feels like you're, you know, not even an hour from San Francisco, but you might as well be like, yeah, another world. Yeah, it's great.
- [43:51]
Arielle Okin
Yeah, Sonoma's amazing.
- [43:54]
Leah Melby Clinton
I would say walking around HomeGoods and then, like, maybe having a glass of wine. Daytime wine.
- [43:59]
Hana Weil McKinley
I love it.
- [44:02]
Arielle Okin
I love going to HomeGoods, especially. My mom and I will go together, and it's just so fun. It's the best. Again, it's the thrill of the hunt. Yeah. It doesn't matter where you are. You could be in, like, the nicest store or Facebook Marketplace or HomeGoods. But it's like, the thrill of finding that great thing. The last one is tricky for most people to answer. What is your favorite design book?
- [44:24]
Leah Melby Clinton
I love I went through before I had my. My kids. I feel like my. On the, Like, a weekend morning, I would love waking up and having coffee and read, like, a coffee table kind of design book. So I, like, went to stories I feel like I hunted on ebay. I won't say her name right either, but the Madeline. And I feel like that that was just so interesting and different and almost like that kind of being projected, like, into the past. Like, I like those. Or I think actually one about the, like, Dior's flower garden that the perfumery house brought back. Right. And you can't go unless you're, like, a value. Cause I was immediately like, can I go on vacation and visit this beautiful place? You have to be, like, a value Dior couture customer or something. I was like, okay. I thought that actually, I think Dior as a person was so fascinating that, like, I like those with stories.
- [45:05]
Arielle Okin
I think I love that it ties back to how you operate in kind in general.
- [45:11]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yeah.
- [45:12]
Arielle Okin
Well, a final few words. What are you guys working on right now? Are there any new issues or projects you can talk about?
- [45:19]
Leah Melby Clinton
Yeah, we are just finishing up our design work on issue number nine of the magazine. So when this comes out, it should be shipping to subscribers and with our fantastic printers in Rhode Island. So we're kind of done. It's with the amazing Natalia we mentioned. So we're editing that, making sure everything is perfect before it gets printed. And then we'll be working on our reader retreat in Sonoma next spring.
- [45:44]
Arielle Okin
Oh, my God. That's so fun. That'll be amazing.
- [45:47]
Hana Weil McKinley
Yeah, we're excited. Coming March or April, we'll send out. We'll have dates to share soon, but really excited to do probably an overnight, a couple nights for a small group, and then for the first time, we'll do day passes for a bigger group.
- [46:03]
Arielle Okin
I think it's so smart that you're doing that. I mean, the summit for us, it's just amazing to get to see your community in real life and see people interact together. It's just so fulfilling. And I know you guys had an amazing experience last year with your summit, and it's just. It's such a cool thing to do.
- [46:22]
Hana Weil McKinley
That's awesome. It is. Like, it makes it all. Just, like, it crystallizes it, right? People in front of you, and you're like, oh, my gosh, we're having the conversations I wanted to have.
- [46:32]
Arielle Okin
No, it's amazing. Final question that we ask everyone is, what is your advice for someone looking to define their own style?
- [46:39]
Leah Melby Clinton
You know, someone told me this at one point. I think it makes. It's, like, very practical, kind of, but it makes sense. Figure out whose style you like and, like, make a Pinterest board, go to their Instagram page. Like, it helps to really, I think, clarify what it is, you know, and so, like, giving that burst of who the, like. My best friend. Hers was Erin Lauder. And so it was just so easy. Like, look at her personal style and, like, take inspiration or think, like, well, would she wear this thing? Would she buy this thing? And I think if you're trying to, like, refine a real look, it's helpful to have, like, somebody who is in your mind of, like, that's what the world is in play there.
- [47:11]
Arielle Okin
Yeah. Paloma Contreras had good. You know, similarly, she said, for interiors, like, pull imagery from all of the spaces that you love and then highlight what it is that you like about each image. And then you'll start to see a trend of, like, okay, I'm gra. I gravitate toward, you know, neutral rooms with pops of, you know, black iron or xyz. But when you start to pull imagery as reference material, and then you look for the thread between all of it, it really Helps you figure out what it is that you're actually drawn to.
- [47:42]
Leah Melby Clinton
The stylist Kate Young said the same kind of thing, but with clothing where it was like, she said when she works with her clients, they pull images, and it's like, why did you like that? Is it because you felt powerful? Is it because you felt. Felt good about your body? Is it because you felt romantic and, you know, dreamy? And so then you're right. You kind of, like, have a lesson or a takeaway, which I think is really, really smart, whether it's interiors or fashion.
- [47:58]
Hana Weil McKinley
Yeah, no, I would. I would agree. I think that that's, like, a really good, practical starting point. And then I think the other thing is just, like, get out of your own way. And like, I. Again, this is like a lesson coming out of COVID when I was, like, worried, not worried, but I was so preoccupied with, like, why am I getting dressed if I'm not going to the office and I'm not dressing for other people? And it's like, just ask yourself, like, what do you want to wear? What do you want to wear today? If there were. If there were no occasion to dress for nothing to do. And I, like, I started to just sort of think of it the way, like, Carrie Bradshaw just, like, freaking gets in that closet and gets dressed and, like, she's going on a coffee run in a full skirt and a bra top. Like, I think it's like, what are you waiting for? Just get dressed for yourself. Just wear.
- [48:41]
Arielle Okin
Well, guys, thank you so much for coming on. This was such a delight. I always love when I get to chat with you two. Where can listeners find more about you? And in kind.
- [48:51]
Leah Melby Clinton
We are in kind magazine.com is the best spot to subscribe or order an issue. And then we're on Instagram at In Kind Mag at In Kind Mag.
- [49:03]
Arielle Okin
I love it. Well, thank you guys so, so much for coming on. This was such a treat, and I can't wait for everybody to hear this episode.
- [49:10]
Hana Weil McKinley
Yay.
- [49:11]
Leah Melby Clinton
Thank you so much, Ariel. Thank you for everything. All the time since the beginning. The best.
- [49:15]
Arielle Okin
And likewise, that's a wrap for this week's episode of Talkshop. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week with more thoughtful discussions and amazing guests. Follow us on Apple, podcasts, Spotify and YouTube, so you never miss an episode. And of course, follow me. Arielokun. See you next week.