Liz Eichholz and Lindsey Johnson // The Story Of Weezie Towels And Entrepreneurship In The Design World

Summary

Podcast Summary: Talk Shop with Ariel Okin – Episode Featuring Liz Eichols and Lindsey Johnson

Episode Title: Liz Eichols and Lindsey Johnson // The Story Of Wheezy Towels And Entrepreneurship In The Design World
Release Date: December 11, 2024

In this enlightening episode of Talk Shop with Ariel Okin, host Ariel Okin sits down with Liz Eichols and Lindsey Johnson, the dynamic duo behind Wheezy Towels. Launched in 2018, Wheezy Towels has rapidly become a beloved brand in the luxury direct-to-consumer market, renowned for its beautifully designed, high-quality towels. Liz and Lindsey share their inspiring journey of entrepreneurship, the challenges of building a brand from the ground up, and the delicate balance of managing a growing business alongside a bustling family life.

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1. Introduction and Background

Ariel Okin introduces Liz Eichols and Lindsey Johnson, highlighting their complementary backgrounds—Liz’s expertise in graphic design and creative direction, and Lindsey’s strong foundation in finance and business management. Both have been friends for over fifteen years and have seamlessly merged their skills to create a successful brand.

Ariel Okin: "Liz and Lindsey, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you guys on today."
(00:51)

2. Origin Story of Wheezy Towels

Liz recounts the inception of Wheezy Towels, sparked by her frustration with the cumbersome process of purchasing and customizing embroidered towels for her wedding. The lack of a streamlined, consumer-friendly option inspired her to collaborate with Lindsey to fill this gap in the market.

Lindsey Johnson: "Liz was getting married and found the consumer shopping experience for towels to be pretty overwhelming and archaic, especially when it came to getting them embroidered."
(07:33)

After recognizing the pain points, Liz and Lindsey dedicated a year and a half to developing a solution that combined softness, absorbency, and aesthetic appeal—ultimately leading to the birth of Wheezy Towels.

3. Building the Company with a Friend

Ariel delves into the dynamics of starting a business with a long-time friend. Liz and Lindsey discuss how their strong friendship and complementary skill sets have been pivotal to their success.

Lindsey Johnson: "Liz and I often joke that we're actually married to each other and not our husbands because we spend so much time together. But in our case, it's our competitive advantage."
(12:05)

Their mutual respect, clear communication, and shared vision have allowed them to navigate the challenges of entrepreneurship collaboratively and effectively.

4. Balancing Entrepreneurship and Parenthood

With six children between them, Liz and Lindsey explore the complexities of managing a thriving business while raising a family. They emphasize the importance of robust support systems, including nannies and family assistance, as well as building strong, reliable teams.

Liz Eichols: "We try to focus on work when we're working and focus on our kids when we're at home. There's no perfect balance, but we make it work."
(14:00)

They share anecdotes from their early days, highlighting the disbelief and late nights that come with launching a startup, yet express pride in how far they've come.

5. Design Philosophy and Inspirations

The conversation shifts to their design philosophies. Liz describes her style as "layered, colorful, and mixed," blending masculine and feminine elements with varied prints and colors. Lindsey characterizes her style as "approachable, casual, and evolving," reflecting her openness to incorporating trends and classics alike.

Liz Eichols: "Having an idea and bringing it to life is something I never grow tired of. It's a privilege."
(15:34)

They discuss the influence of their upbringing and previous environments on their aesthetics—Liz’s Austin roots bringing a laid-back vibe, and Lindsey’s diverse geographical upbringing fostering an eclectic taste.

6. Shopping Habits and Design Influences

Liz and Lindsey delve into their favorite places to shop and sources of inspiration. They highlight direct-to-consumer brands like Coley Home and Society Social, as well as local antique stores and platforms like Etsy for unique finds.

Liz Eichols: "We're really loving Coley Home and Society Social. Savannah is also filled with great antique stores, and Etsy has been a treasure trove for us."
(28:47)

They also mention vintage coffee table books and recommend specific resources for design enthusiasts seeking inspiration.

7. Rapid Fire Questions (Take 10)

In the fun-filled Take 10 segment, Liz and Lindsey answer quick-fire questions, revealing personal preferences and quirks that give listeners a glimpse into their personalities:

• Favorite Food:
  Liz: Pizza
  Lindsey: Bread and cheese
  (33:24)

• Favorite Drink:
  Liz: Dirty martini
  Lindsey: Martini
  (33:35)

• Favorite Film:
  Liz: You've Got Mail
  Lindsey: Films with shocking plot twists like The Departed or Gone Girl
  (33:40)

• Favorite Hotel:
  Liz: Playa Grande in the Dominican
  Lindsey: The Cyranoes in Positano or the Ô Chev d'Or in France
  (34:07)

• Favorite City:
  Liz: Paris
  Lindsey: New York
  (35:21)

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8. Future Projects and Upcoming Collections

Looking ahead, Liz and Lindsey share exciting plans for Wheezy Towels, including a new bra line and a Valentine’s Day collection. They also announce the upcoming Wheezy Basics line, offering luxury towels at a sharper price point without additional design elements, making them perfect for practical uses or second homes.

Lindsey Johnson: "Our new bra collection is one of our largest yet, and the Valentine’s Day collection is always fun because it's so on-theme."
(41:33)

Liz Eichols: "The Wheezy Basics line will maintain our luxury quality while being more accessible and versatile."
(42:06)

9. Advice for Aspiring Designers and Entrepreneurs

In the concluding segment, Liz and Lindsey offer valuable advice for those looking to define their own interior styles or embark on entrepreneurial ventures:

Liz Eichols: "Be patient and take your time. Notice what makes your heart skip a beat and remember that your home is personal, not a portfolio."
(42:34)

Lindsey Johnson: "Embrace the evolution of your style. Don’t be afraid to make mistakes and learn from them. Your home can live many lives in terms of design."
(43:13)

They emphasize the importance of trusting in one’s vision, being open to change, and leveraging mentorship and community support.

10. Closing Remarks and Discount Announcement

As the episode wraps up, Liz and Lindsey provide listeners with information on where to find more about Wheezy Towels and extend a special discount code.

Liz Eichols: "Use the discount code TalkShop15 for 15% off your entire order at wheezytowels.com."
(45:19)

Ariel Okin expresses her admiration for their journey and thanks them for sharing their insights, encouraging listeners to explore Wheezy Towels’ offerings and stay tuned for future episodes.

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Key Takeaways:

• Wheezy Towels emerged from a personal need for a better towel purchasing and customization experience.
• Friendship and complementary skills are central to Liz and Lindsey’s business success.
• Balancing entrepreneurship and family life requires robust support systems and clear boundaries.
• Their design philosophy blends creativity with practicality, influenced by their diverse backgrounds.
• Community and mentorship play a significant role in their growth and approach to business.
• Future projects indicate ongoing innovation and expansion within the brand.
• Advice for aspiring individuals emphasizes patience, personal connection, and adaptability.

This episode is a treasure trove of insights for entrepreneurs in the design world, offering a genuine look into the challenges and triumphs of building a beloved brand from friendship and shared passion.

Notable Quotes:

• Liz Eichols: "Having an idea and bringing it to life is something I never grow tired of. It's a privilege."
  (15:34)

• Lindsey Johnson: "Liz and I often joke that we're actually married to each other and not our husbands because we spend so much time together. But in our case, it's our competitive advantage."
  (12:05)

• Ariel Okin: "You guys really should be so proud of yourselves. You have grown it into such a huge operation."
  (13:23)

• Lindsey Johnson: "It’s the only way you learn, too. Like, this was the first time I ever... I definitely made some mistakes, but I learned so much in the process."
  (44:01)

Listeners are encouraged to visit wheezytowels.com and follow Liz and Lindsey on social media to stay updated on their latest collections and insights into the world of design entrepreneurship.

Transcript

[Lindsey Johnson]

When we first started, it was literally the two of us and an embroiderer and we like physically had to receive the inventory, ship the product out, embroider the product. And so many times we looked at each other being like, what on earth are we doing? How did we get here? You know, those late nights and I still feel like we have these moments of disbelief. Is this our company? You know?

[Arielle Okun]

Welcome to Talkshop. I'm Arielle Okun, a New York based interior designer, writer and editor looking to bring a little bit of magic into our homes every day. After years as a writer and editor in the interiors world, I founded my own editorial site, Fenimore Lane in 2020 and the Talk Shop interview series was born. Each week I delve into the personal experiences of the top interior designers and tastemakers around the globe. This week, I'm joined by the duo behind Wheezy Towels, Liz Eichols and Lindsey Johnson. Launched in 2018, Wheezy Towels is not only our favorite towel brand for gorgeous towels, but also a true embodiment of a modern luxury direct to consumer brand with a big heart. Weezy's origin story is the stuff of lore. Newly married, Liz had a lackluster experience looking for embroidered towels. She approached her longtime friend Lindsey and the two agreed that there was a gap in the market. They hit the ground running to modernize this niche space and eventually introduced the world to Weezy. Liz, Weezy's creative director, was born and raised in Austin, Texas. After receiving a BFA in Graphic Design from the University of Georgia, she she spent five years in New York working in creative, including at Uncommon Goods and Bustle before moving to Savannah, Georgia with her husband and three children managing the business side. CEO Lindsey spent her childhood with stops around the US before attending Vanderbilt for undergrad and then Columbia Business School. Lindsay spent almost a decade in New York City before planting roots in Atlanta with her husband and three children. With 15 years of friendship and over five years at Wheezy, plus six kids between the two of them, Liz and Lindsey constantly inspire me. And I can't wait for you to hear our conversation about entrepreneurship in the design world. So please join me as we welcome Liz and Lindsay to the podcast. Liz and Lindsay, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you guys on today.

[Liz Eichols]

We're so excited to be here. Thank you for having us.

[Arielle Okun]

Of course.

[Liz Eichols]

Been a long time coming.

[Arielle Okun]

I know. I've been really looking forward to this one. I always love getting to chat with you guys. Well, to kick off the conversation, you know, we Always ask everyone, can you each describe your style in three words or less?

[Liz Eichols]

This is Liz. These type of questions are always so hard for me because I am the least concise person on the planet. But I went with layered, colorful, and mixed. Mixed. I feel like. I don't know if it's the right word. I'm curious how you would describe this, but I love, like, masculine and feminine. A mix of a scale of prints, color, and something understated.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah. It's like the playful tension between things that makes it interesting. And I feel like in your house, you can see that too. Your house is so beautiful.

[Liz Eichols]

Well, thank you.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah.

[Lindsey Johnson]

And this is Lindsay. And I would describe my style as approachable, casual, and evolving. And similarly, I would say I'm. My style is constantly changing. Like, I'm just now starting to mix in some trends, but also playing into the classics. And so I feel like I'm definitely figuring out my styles now. You know, Liz and I both have three children, so it's like sometimes what I want to wear is not the most practical thing to wear.

[Arielle Okun]

It's like the story of my life. Yeah.

[Lindsey Johnson]

So I would say it's definitely. Yes, definitely evolving, for sure.

[Arielle Okun]

I love that. And it's such a good point, too, that especially at this point in our lives where we have young kids and our houses need to be a jack of all trades for us, I feel like it is so common for our styles to evolve and sort of jump when we're in this phase of our life. Well, for those listening, I know there are a lot of wheezy hype girls out there who are listening to this conversation. Can you tell us a little bit about yourselves and where you are at this point in your lives and your careers?

[Liz Eichols]

Yes, would love to. So I am the chief creative officer at Wheezy, and I came from a creative background, so I went to the University of Georgia and studied graphic design and then moved to New York, where I was on the in house creative team at Uncommon Goods. And then from there was a creative director at BDG Media and launched Bustle and Romper, among other publications. During that time, I kind of dipped my foot into entrepreneurship and had a silk sleep mask company called Tempe Row. The Instagram actually still exists for it. And if you want a true full circle moment, I forced Lindsay to be one of my models.

[Arielle Okun]

Oh, my God. That's amazing.

[Liz Eichols]

I didn't know that, but I left New York and got engaged. And during that time, the idea for Wheezy was born. So that was seven Eight years ago. And the rest is kind of history. Lindsay, what about you?

[Lindsey Johnson]

Yeah, so my background is very different from Liz's, which I think is one of the reasons why our partnership works so well. So Liz came from a creative background. I came from more of a traditional finance background. So I went to Vanderbilt undergrad and then worked in finance in New York City right out of school for five years in a variety of different functions and companies of BlackRock and a hedge fund called Anchorage. And then I went to Columbia Business School with the idea that I would go into early stage venture capital. So I was looking at investing in consumer businesses. I had started to sort of do it on my own as an angel, and really got interested in sort of mirroring my interest in consumer and retail with investing. Once I got to school, Liz really was the person who approached me with the idea for what became Wheezy. And while I did not end up going into consumer investing, I think Wheezy is sort of the perfect marriage of those interests. So I'm definitely more on the business side, but it's really awesome to be able to do, you know, business and finance and a sector like retail and consumer.

[Arielle Okun]

I love that. And I always love talking to you guys about this because I feel like you guys really do have such a yin and yang of the creative side and the finance side. And for any entrepreneur in the design business, I feel like sometimes you have to be both of those in one person. So I feel like I always learn a lot when I talk to you guys. So before starting the brand, you guys had been friends for a decade. You met through a mutual friend. How did the story of Wheezy come together?

[Lindsey Johnson]

Yeah, as I mentioned, Liz was really the person who experienced the pain point. I think any good business, you know, really comes from a consumer need and something that you experience yourself, and then you can kind of approach it, figure out a way to solve it. So Liz, as she mentioned, she was getting married. She was registering for bath towels for her wedding and went through the process where, you know, she was at a department store and there's a million different options and brands and jargon and price points, and found the consumer shopping experience to be pretty overwhelming and quite archaic, especially when it came to getting that product embroidered. So not only was the actual towel purchasing experience difficult, but then getting them embroidered was offline, you know, like working with a woman in a binder of options, having to pay for the towels, pick them up, you know, like six to eight weeks later. It's just. It's kind of crazy.

[Arielle Okun]

So true.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Especially in today's world where I think everything is online. So I think, you know, it started with that consumer pain point. And then Liz and I were friends for first and texting a bunch of friends saying, like, hey, what towels do y'all have? I'm looking for a recommendation. And her finding that there wasn't one clear winner in the space, like, there was a lot of different brands. Most people didn't even know who made their towels or when they last bought their towels. And, you know, I think that conversation really snowballed. So it became very. I'll be honest, Liz is an optimist. I'm a pessimist. So when she first was like, hey, I think there's something here, I want to start a towel company, I was like, no way. Yeah, this is a horrible idea. And the reason I thought that was because I hadn't personally been through what she had just experienced. But once I started to sort of dig into that, and I was in business school at the time, looking at early stage businesses and talking to friends about the same question she was asking me, when did you buy your towels? How much did you spend? Who made them? Do you love them? Finding that she was totally onto something with there being a hole and an opportunity in the market. I think that the next part is probably the more interesting part, which was the next year and a half of us trying to actually solve the problem. And so it's one thing to, I think, recognize there's a hole here, there's an opportunity, but are we the two right people to solve that problem and that and really create a new product? I think the products that were on the market at the time either were super soft or not absorbent or very absorbent, but not soft. Or they might be absorbent and soft, but they're not beautiful. And so I think really trying to narrow down what it was that we were trying to solve and then can we actually solve that problem was what we spent the next year and a half working on before launching.

[Liz Eichols]

And Ariel, I feel like similar to us, you were also in New York during this time when it was like such a direct to consumer boom. Yeah, there was Casper and Warby Parker and Glossier and all of these brands that we had such strong connections to and we loved ordering from. And. And so I was such a junkie for those brands. So to then get to this purchase and feel like I didn't have a brand that I really connected with and I was super excited to order from, that really convinced me that There was a hole.

[Arielle Okun]

I mean, that was such an era. And I think you guys have done such a beautiful job of creating a serious brand engagement. You know, I think before Wheezy, I don't think anybody would say, I am so excited to go look at the new towel drop. But now you've created kind of a culture around what it is that you guys are doing, and you've expanded to other product lines, and, you know, it's just become so much bigger than where. Where did you get your towels, and when was the last time you got them?

[Liz Eichols]

I mean, I think that was also something we were nervous about in a challenge in the beginning. Like, can we make this commodity, what's viewed as a commodity, something more exciting and put a real brand behind it and get people to look at it as more than just a commodity in their home, but a design fixture and something that they're excited to purchase and talk about?

[Arielle Okun]

I think you guys have done such an amazing job also about engaging with designers on it too.

[Liz Eichols]

We love our designers.

[Arielle Okun]

Yes. Well, we love you. And just the imagery, you know, showing what the Wheezy product looks like in a beautifully designed home and how it can fit in as sort of like an accessory to the bathroom. You guys do such a great job at that.

[Liz Eichols]

Thank you.

[Arielle Okun]

Can you talk a little bit about what it's been like building the company and going into business with a friend? Especially? You guys went through major life transitions. You got engaged and married and had kids. Now you each have three kids. That is a huge amount of growth, both personally and professionally, since 2018.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Yeah. Liz and I often joke that we're actually married to each other and not our husband because we spend so much time together. It's funny. Everyone says, don't mix business with friends, and I feel like that probably is the right advice for most people, but in Liz and I's case, I think for us, it's really our competitive advantage. And because we were friends first, there is, like, a mutual respect and understanding and trust between us, and that really carries over to how we work with each other. And I think we also. We're so fortunate we get to do it together, because it just makes it so much more fun as, you know, starting a business is so hard and not without its challenges. And I think it's just so great to have not only a business partner, but a best friend. And back to the beginning of the conversation, we actually have complementary skill sets, which I think really helps balance each other out.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, it's so important. Lara, who is our Operations director who's been with me since the beginning is like my left brain, right hand. Like, we can't. I can't do it without her. And it's so important, I think, to be able to fill each other's holes.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah. And we've always been in different places, so I think the fact that we were friends and the right two friends with the right two skill sets, I would still think about going into business with a friend in the future the same way. Like, you need to have complementary skill sets. You need to be able to communicate really clearly with each other. And it's really helped with the fact that we've been in different places the whole time.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, that's such a good point. Are there any really good stories to share from those early startup days?

[Liz Eichols]

Oh, man, so many.

[Lindsey Johnson]

When we first started, it was literally the two of us and an embroiderer, like the day we launched and we like physically had to, you know, receive the inventory, ship the product out, embroider the product. And so many times we looked at each other being like, what on earth are we doing? Like, how did we get, how did we get here? You know, those late nights and I still feel like we have these moments of disbelief. Is this our company?

[Arielle Okun]

It's so amazing. I mean, you guys really should be so proud of yourselves. You have grown it into such a huge operation and it's just so cool to see, especially because I feel like I've known you guys since you started basically, and I just have like been such a fan on the sidelines cheering for you. I just, I'm so. I love it.

[Liz Eichols]

Thank you. I mean, you know how it is. Like the first six years, I feel like we've just been drinking out of a fire hose too. And you don't have a lot of time to stop and pause and assess like, what just happened.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah.

[Liz Eichols]

What just happened over the last six years? Like when we started Wheezy, I was pregnant with my first and now there's six kids between us. So that alone.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, I mean, that alone is absolutely mind boggling and insane. How do you guys function on a day to day with six kids between you? Like, how do you. How do you. Let's talk a little bit about that because I'm always curious about that.

[Liz Eichols]

A lot of venting.

[Arielle Okun]

Yes. And work life balance, which is not a real thing. I want to hear how you structure your days.

[Liz Eichols]

I mean, we both have really incredible support systems, AK nannies and families that we wouldn't be able to function without. And really incredible Teams. And I'll say it's probably taken me six years to feel like I have at least, like, a good system going.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, well, because it's so much trial and error, and by the time you have a second kid, then you're, like, a little bit more comfortable because you're like, okay, I know what the routine is. And then you can, like, get comfortable with changing it a little bit.

[Liz Eichols]

Right. And I mean, every year and every age presents different challenges. So I think reminding yourself that everything's a phase. Yeah.

[Arielle Okun]

Yes.

[Liz Eichols]

And you can always improve your system and don't panic. And, you know, when we're working, we try to focus on work. When we're at home, we try to focus on our kids. And just knowing that there's no, like, perfect balance. Every family is so different.

[Arielle Okun]

I need that, like, written on a. Post it on my mirror. I know. So I want to jump into the design questions a little bit, because I think the elevated aspect of design is what makes Wheezy such a standout to me and makes it so special. Honestly, what is each of your favorite things about working within the design world?

[Liz Eichols]

For me, it's really just having an idea and having the privilege to bring it to life is something that I never grow tired of.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah.

[Liz Eichols]

I always remember so distinctly my first job at Uncommon Goods. Like, my first week of work out of college, I was designing an email, and I did this illustration of a fall tree, and I finished, and the creative director gave me great feedback and I was done. And I just went home and called my parents and was like, I cannot believe I'm getting paid for this. Like, I feel like I needed the system.

[Arielle Okun]

Isn't that the best feeling?

[Liz Eichols]

It's the best feeling, and I still feel that way. I. I've always been creative, and for this to be my career just feels like such a gift.

[Arielle Okun]

So I feel the same way. It really is.

[Liz Eichols]

And honestly, working with someone like Lindsay, who I know she's going to be like, I'm not a creative. I'm on the other side of the business. But she's my editor, and I love. I'm. I can be very indecisive and have lots of ideas. And it's so nice for me to work with someone who, A, I trust so much, but B, is so decisive and whose taste I really trust. She always laughs when I say that.

[Arielle Okun]

But, like, yeah, you know, it's important.

[Liz Eichols]

Though, she makes in her home. I love the clothes that she picks out. So she is my editor. I love having one person that I'M coming to and I'm presenting designs whose reactions I can really trust.

[Arielle Okun]

That's also fascinating because you guys are both so entrenched in different ways in the brand DNA that it's almost like you're getting both sides and opinions when you're, you know, whether you're, like, trialing a new product or something. And then you can feel really confident when it's a yes from both of you that you know it's going to do well.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Yeah, that's the thing. I think we're both. We look at design with, like, different lenses. Like, of course there's, you know, subjective taste and what you like versus don't. But I think also I'm. I think about design of, you know, I'm thinking about the logistics of it and can we get this product to market? How much is it going to cost us, how much can we charge for it, you know, how is it going to fit within the existing, you know, category or etc. So I think having that different lens, like, for me, I've always appreciated design and I am interested in it and love it. Like, I could redesign my house every single year if I had the luxury of the time and the money. But it's not something like, I'm definitely more of the business side. So for me, I think I get to kind of marry that. The business interest and skill set with being able to do that around a product that I love and think is beautiful is so fun.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah. I feel like you guys both get best of both worlds because whatever you would be missing in a traditional career in finance, let's say, or a graphic design career, you're kind of like getting with what you do because you get both sides. And I think that's one of the amazing things about being a founder is that you kind of do have to put your foot into everything and it lets you kind of experience elements that you wouldn't otherwise in that particular category.

[Liz Eichols]

Right. It's so true.

[Arielle Okun]

What design rule do you always follow? Or do you think there's one that's made to be broken?

[Liz Eichols]

I feel like because I'm not an interior designer, I had to think about this one.

[Arielle Okun]

Yes. And it could apply to how you. How you guys think about product design, too.

[Liz Eichols]

Yes, that's true. Well, I've had the luck of working with two great interior designers for my house, Robin Roberts and now Ginny Crosby. And I trust both of them so much, and I think I've learned so much about scale and layout from them. I think, you know, I'M in a design enthusiast, but not a classically trained designer. And scale and layout is so hard for me. Like, it does not come naturally in a room. And I really have learned the importance of nailing that first from both of them, I would say. That is a rule that I follow and then made to be broken. I feel like the two of them have also been really good about not, like, imposing rules on me and making it more about, like, my life and my family and the fact that I have kids and a dog and letting that kind of inform, like, where we're going to invest versus not, you know, like, our yellow lab sits on our front couch and looks out the window. So we're not going to do a white linen couch right there.

[Arielle Okun]

Charlie does that, too. There's, like, an outline where he sits.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah, same. I never want anyone to look too closely at that couch because.

[Arielle Okun]

Exactly.

[Liz Eichols]

But so more about, like, them teaching me how important it is to not have strict rules and really lean into how a house is going to function for you and your family, I think has been my biggest.

[Arielle Okun]

Learning through that's so important, too, because that's what makes a house feel like a home and, you know, personal to who lives in it. So I think that's always those two things. Scale and then also having it be personal, I think are some of the best advice that you could give someone.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah. And especially in this day and age of Instagram, where so many homes feel like a portfolio, moving away from that and really thinking about, like, what does my family need out of this home? Do we like to host? Which rooms are our kids going to be in? And, you know, making it more about you and your family in a personal thing than the images and what's going to be shown to the outside world.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, no, it's so true. I tend to lean more. I mean, this is probably not shocking to anyone who is listening, but I lean into that sort of English sensibility of design, which is. It's a little bit more real. It's layered. You can tell somebody lives there. It's okay if something's a bit tattered. You know, you're not supposed to be afraid to go in any rooms, and your kids can have free reign. And I think it's important to have that kind of running in the back of your mind.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah, agree. I feel the same way.

[Arielle Okun]

What's the best advice for designing interiors you guys have ever received?

[Lindsey Johnson]

Anna Wootton Interiors did my house, and she also did our office and our retail space. So we've worked with her several times. And I feel like she has said this to me so many times. And this is the advice that I have heard from many people. I'm sure you've given this advice to your clients, is that it's totally fine to wait for the right piece and to layer over time. I think my personality is like, I want this done. Like, I want to move into my house, have it fully furnished. Like, check it off the list. And I think that was something that I learned the hard way because, you know, sometimes instant gratification is nice to, like, fill a hole in your house, but it really is worth it to wait for the right piece and the right item. And I definitely have, like, started to embrace that idea more and, like, layering and collecting over time.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, it's really. It's really, really true. And also, I think back about when we first moved into our house, we literally had a sofa, and that was it.

[Liz Eichols]

Right.

[Arielle Okun]

You know, now we've been here for five years, and, like, the room is overflowing because I've just become such a magpie. But it happens over time, and then it feels organic.

[Liz Eichols]

In the same vein, my mom gave me the advice to live in our house for a little while before we designed each room.

[Arielle Okun]

That's a great point.

[Liz Eichols]

And, like, Lindsay, I mean, we all moved from New York, so once we finally had this, like, big house and space, I just wanted to fill it with things. And we're doing. We've decided to stay in this house now that we've been there for seven years and we're renovating. And I'm so grateful that we waited to do that because we're being so intentional about every little decision. And down to, like, I know which cabinet I want my vacuum cleaner to go in.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah. Because you know how you live in that house, it's really, really, really helpful to do that.

[Liz Eichols]

So I feel like being patient on all fronts ends up benefiting you for sure. And then if you're going to work with a designer, to trust them, I think that's something. Yeah. Both really good at. Once we hire someone, especially because neither of us have the time. We just really trust them and kind of let them run with decisions. And Anna Wootton is a great example of that. She did Lindsay's house, and like Lindsay mentioned, she also did our store. And I feel like I could let Anna Wooten go run with decisions with very little oversight. And that trust with a designer is so important for them to be able to bring their vision to life.

[Arielle Okun]

Yes. No, it is so true. And that trust is kind of the key anchor of the entire relationship, really. I love the way that you said that you do that because you don't have the time. Being comfortable delegating. If you think about it as if it's any other thing that you're delegating, whether at work or mom stuff, being comfortable to delegate that off to someone that you trust is such a great way of looking at it instead of feeling like you're afraid to give up creative control. Well, looking back through your careers, have you guys had mentors in particular that have helped you guys sort of shape the trajectory of Wheezy or shape your individual trajectories as you've kind of grown into the careers that you've grown?

[Liz Eichols]

I'll say definitely my dad, he is very entrepreneurial. I think one thing he and my mom, too, did really well was never balked at me wanting a creative career.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah.

[Liz Eichols]

Never had an issue with me majoring in graphic design and then wanting to move to New York and go into that for my career. They viewed it as my brother doing finance.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, that's.

[Liz Eichols]

So they really treated it the same way, which, yeah, I think looking back, I just really value that. And then we've just really encountered so many helpful people on this journey, and it's one of the most refreshing parts of it, and I mean, to name a few. The founder of Framebridge, Susan Tynan, and her creative director, Tessa Wolf. We've connected with a ton, and they've been so helpful. The Minnow and the Lake Pajama founders. The Visual Comfort founder, Gail. I feel like I could go on and on, but I think it's just been really nice to encounter all of these supportive female founders, and they're. You know, even though there's products that may be viewed as competitive, there's just been very little gatekeeping. And I feel like anytime we've needed to turn to someone for advice, they've really been honest and open, which has been super refreshing.

[Arielle Okun]

I mean, I feel that way about you guys. I've come to you guys for a gut check a couple times, and I just. I really. I admire your willingness to always sit down and pay it forward and give your advice. And I think it's a special thing when you find people like that in this industry and fellow entrepreneurs that you can kind of gut check with.

[Lindsey Johnson]

No, we wouldn't be where we are today without the dozens and dozens of people that we hit up for advice before we launched and during and last week. I'm thinking about it. I Reached out to probably six people last week to ask some advice on something. And it's just so nice to be able to send those texts or those emails and just hop on the phone with someone who's either been through it or can just help you think through something. And to that end, it's like, I don't really have a clear mentor, but I think we've both been sort of sponges to so many different people, and I think it's really just been amazing. I think that we've been able to find so many people, like Liz said, that are willing to share kind of in this journey with us.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, it is. It is. It really is amazing. Well, let's get into a little bit about the personal side for both of you. What do you think your homes say about you?

[Lindsey Johnson]

I would say mine is definitely approachable, like I mentioned, in terms of. I have three young kids. My oldest is four. So my house is getting, like, basically destroyed every single day.

[Arielle Okun]

I didn't realize you had three under four. That's a wild ride.

[Lindsey Johnson]

It is pretty crazy. So my house is not fussy. There's, like, really nothing you can totally mess up, you know, that can't get messed up, which is nice. Like you were saying. And I'm similar to kind of what Liz was saying earlier about unexpected mix. I'm definitely not afraid of mixing pattern on pattern. I love textiles. I think that's something that comes through for both Liz and I through our work and in our homes. Just like, not being afraid of pattern on pattern and text, different textures and things like that.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah, mine is similar. I mean, I think you walk into my home and it's very clear family lives there. I have six, four and two, so the kids kind of rule the roost right now. But so, I mean, I love pictures. Like, Lindsay laughs at how often I have a family photo shoot because I'm picture obsessed.

[Arielle Okun]

We do it once a year or two. It's so special to do that.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Liz does it, like, four times a year.

[Liz Eichols]

I really. It is kind of out of control, but every time a baby's in a new stage, I'm like, wait, I have to photograph that? Like, roll. She's losing.

[Arielle Okun]

No, it's so true. And it goes so fast, and I feel like you don't realize how fast it goes until, like, you have, you know, a second one or a third one, because then you know that because you've experienced it with the oldest one, that it. You just blink and, like, they're in kindergarten.

[Liz Eichols]

So, yeah, definitely that a family lives there. There's family photos everywhere. And then like Lindsay said, no room is too precious. So we live in every square inch of our house. Our my brother and sister in law used to make fun of us for our formal living room. And I'm like, we're literally in there every day now. We have a card table in there. So we're doing Uno and slapjack and I'm negotiating with my kids do they want to play cards or read a nighttime book? So I love that.

[Arielle Okun]

That's how it should be.

[Liz Eichols]

We really do use every square inch.

[Arielle Okun]

What are some of your favorite places to shop for home?

[Liz Eichols]

I joked with my designer earlier, whatever Ginny Crosby shows me because I mean.

[Arielle Okun]

That'S the best compliment that a client could give truthfully.

[Liz Eichols]

But I think we've really connected with and loved so many of the direct to consumer options that have come up since we've launched like Coley Home and Society Social. I love what both of them have done. And then of course Instagram showing me all of the dreamy stores that are not in Savannah like Get the Gusto and Sewn and krb. I feel like I have so many crushes there. But Savannah is just filled with so many good antique stores so I love popping into those and you know, love a good Facebook market find. Or I keep. I've been going to Etsy more and more.

[Arielle Okun]

I am a total Etsy junkie.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah. I feel like once you know what to search for on there, it's such a treasure trove.

[Arielle Okun]

Yes. You need to have your keywords and then you could like literally be set loose forever. And it's a never ending search. I mean cherish too. Cherish. And first dibs do such a good job of like doing those edits, the designer edits which are so great. But yeah, Etsy. Etsy's dangerous.

[Liz Eichols]

I know. Very.

[Arielle Okun]

Do you have any favorite places to follow for inspiration? Not just on social media, but it could be anywhere. It could be books, it could be traveling.

[Liz Eichols]

I've been going down rabbit holes on vintage coffee table books. I got some like old English coffee table books. I don't even remember where from, maybe ebay. And have been digging into the pages there and loving it.

[Arielle Okun]

It is my most favorite pastime. There's a really great seller on Etsy actually called Cape Fear Books.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Okay.

[Liz Eichols]

So good to know.

[Arielle Okun]

Yes. And he is a former house beautiful editor and he finds all of these great old interior design books and he has the best at it. So I highly recommend.

[Liz Eichols]

That sounds very dangerous.

[Arielle Okun]

Yes, it is. It is, but he has such good stuff. What do you think some of the biggest aesthetic influences have been for each of you?

[Lindsey Johnson]

I grew up really all over the country. The longest I've ever lived anywhere actually was New York after college.

[Arielle Okun]

So I lived there for 10 years.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Yeah, it's really crazy. So I went to seven schools before college, so I think I lived, was constantly moving. And I feel like that really is true in my. The aesthetics of my life. Like, I think my parents are both from the south, so there's definitely some Southern roots in terms of like color and pattern. But then having lived in New York for as long as I did, I definitely love like an all black monochrome moment as well. So I feel like it's very much all over the place, which I think is. It's, you know, more. Eclectic's not the right word, but I think just like drawing from multiple different geographies.

[Arielle Okun]

Mm. So interesting.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah. It's funny how the cities we grew up in are having such an effect on both of us because for me, I think it's growing up in Austin, Texas, which is such a laid back city and a laid back vibe. And I just feel like that's instilled in me in the way that I dress. And also in my home, it like really comes through and everything.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, when Gil was on also, we were talking with Gil Schaefer about psychology behind a Sense of police and how that can track travel with you and how it influences the way you design and think about things.

[Liz Eichols]

It's so true.

[Arielle Okun]

It's really beautiful how it can kind of subtly impact the way your aesthetics are kind of molded from an early age.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah, I love that. So true. And I think there's interiors and the way we dress, but because I'm a graphic designer, I'm always thinking about brand. And like I said, living in New York during that direct consumer boom, like, really had an effect on me in the way I think about brand because I got to see all of these OG direct to consumer brands be brought to life and really give you this like, sense of belonging. So that has really had an effect on the way I think about graphic design and Wheezy's brand in particular.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, that's such a good point. I mean, that was such a distinct era and I feel like direct to consumer just kind of changed after that. Everything became. It became about the community that you were building and like, relationship that you're building with your consumer and how they buy into the world that you've built, which I think you guys have done so, so well and so beautifully well at the end, I'm sure you guys know we do our take 10, which are our rapid fire questions, but I love asking them. So what is your favorite food?

[Liz Eichols]

Pizza.

[Lindsey Johnson]

I want to say bread and cheese.

[Arielle Okun]

Nice. There's the yin and yang. It's like same same, but a little different. Favorite drink?

[Liz Eichols]

Dirty martini.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Yeah. Martini.

[Arielle Okun]

Yes. Good choice. Favorite film?

[Liz Eichols]

You've Got Mail.

[Arielle Okun]

Oh, it's such a good one.

[Lindsey Johnson]

I, like, don't have a great answer for this. I'm someone who. I love a twist. I love, like a shocking plot twist. Like a Departed or like Gone Girl.

[Arielle Okun]

That's like the polar opposite of youf've Got Mail. Although I guess there is kind of a plot twist. And you've got Mail. Yeah.

[Liz Eichols]

Our answers will either be the exact same or the exact opposite.

[Arielle Okun]

Favorite hotel.

[Liz Eichols]

Ooh, so many.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Maybe the Cyranoes in Positano or the O chev d'Or in as France.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah. Those are both gorgeous.

[Liz Eichols]

Oh, Playa Grande.

[Arielle Okun]

Oh, in the Dominican.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah. Hotels is also, like the number one place I get inspiration. So I feel like this would be picking a favorite child. But we'll do recency bias and say that one. Because every inch of it was divine.

[Arielle Okun]

I mean, celery is just so crazy talented.

[Liz Eichols]

So good.

[Arielle Okun]

Every inch of the Mayflower every time I'm there. And I'm there all the time because we're there for the summit all the time. And planning, like, I feel like I find a new detail every time I'm there.

[Liz Eichols]

She's just so good. That's how I felt about Playa Ground, too.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah. I've been dying to go there. It looks so gorgeous.

[Liz Eichols]

It's so dreamy. We had a rainy day, and I was so grateful because we just got to sit in the living room and I was, like, drooling over every single detail.

[Arielle Okun]

That is, like, the ultimate compliment. I feel like you're on vacation in a place where you're going for the weather and you're, like, so happy that there's a bad weather day so that you can experience the hotel.

[Lindsey Johnson]

That.

[Arielle Okun]

That's so amazing.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah.

[Arielle Okun]

Favorite city?

[Lindsey Johnson]

New York.

[Liz Eichols]

I was going to say New York, too. So I'll go with Paris.

[Arielle Okun]

I feel like you guys really are New Yorkers at heart. Like, even though you are not there anymore, you're still kind of there. Favorite bedding.

[Liz Eichols]

Ooh.

[Arielle Okun]

Ooh.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Okay, I'll just answer what I have because this is actually. I feel like this is because we Sell towels. This is like, something we talk about and think about a lot because people are always asking us, we all launch sheets, we launch bedding, and our answer is always, we don't have a competitive advantage in bedding. Like, we really have figured out the secret sauce with towels. So bedding is not something we're interested in, but it is so related to what we sell that it's something we think about a lot. So I feel like in terms of beautiful design and luxury quality, like, Deporteau is obviously like the OG here, and I think we both love their stuff. But I like on my bed right now is Bowen Branch, which is actually another founder who's become somewhat of a mentor and helpful to us over the past few years as well.

[Arielle Okun]

Those are so soft. And I love that they're organic cotton, too.

[Liz Eichols]

They're so good.

[Lindsey Johnson]

And I guess my coverlet is matuk.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah. I have a mix of Matouk. And then I love the Serena and Lily beach club. I think it is sheet set.

[Arielle Okun]

Oh, yeah, that's a good one. They have such good bedding options, too.

[Liz Eichols]

My new thing, though, in our renovation, we'll have a new primary bed, and I want, like, no pillows. I don't know if you're seeing this.

[Arielle Okun]

Yes. Like, where the COVID where, like, the quilt is kind of like, over it.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah. Like, I don't want to spend the time putting my pillows back in the morning. And I'm like, we have no time for this. I want them.

[Arielle Okun]

I feel like it's a very European way to style a bed. It's very chic. It's very. It's very pretty.

[Liz Eichols]

I know. As long as I don't have to iron them.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, exactly.

[Liz Eichols]

Jenny Crosby, my designer, about this, and I was like, wait, but can we get these actually made out of something where I do not have to iron them? Because nobody's going to be doing that.

[Arielle Okun]

No, no one has time for that. Tea or coffee. And how do you take it?

[Liz Eichols]

Coffee all day long and iced all year round.

[Lindsey Johnson]

I drink those La Colomb oat milk draft lattes every single solitary day.

[Arielle Okun]

Those are so good. I love La Colombe.

[Liz Eichols]

Favorite playlist right now, Taylor Swift, because I'm taking my oldest to Toronto this weekend.

[Arielle Okun]

That's so exciting.

[Liz Eichols]

I'm so excited. So. And we just launched in Canada, so I joked that I'm gonna deliver our first wheezy order, so I had to.

[Arielle Okun]

Go, oh, my God, that's amazing. I hope you're hand delivering it.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah. So we're listening on repeat.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Yeah. My kids totally dominate my radio selections.

[Arielle Okun]

Like, there's. I know. Playlist. Unfortunately, my husband was making fun of me the other day. I was driving, and he was putting something the girls were, like, playing DJ requesting in the backseat, and he went to my Spotify and he was like, this is such a mom Spotify. It was like Cocomelon, Sabrina Carpenter, Taylor Swift. Like, yeah.

[Liz Eichols]

Mike has just discovered descendants. So I think all of my Spotify is descendants one through four.

[Arielle Okun]

Oh, my God. That's so funny. No, it's like they take over every inch of the car, including the radio.

[Liz Eichols]

I know.

[Arielle Okun]

Favorite weekend activity.

[Lindsey Johnson]

This is horrible because it doesn't involve my children.

[Arielle Okun]

That is not horrible.

[Lindsey Johnson]

My instinct was tennis or mahjong or, like, my two new hobbies I've been really into.

[Liz Eichols]

Of course, I was going to say the same, but right now, again, our weekends are so dominated by, like, kids sports.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah.

[Liz Eichols]

8Am soccer and basketball. But we have a standing Saturday night sitter. So once that sitter gives us freedom. And I know I'm headed towards our favorite restaurant in Savannah's common thread, and once I'm headed towards that common thread, Martini and meeting another couple, I feel like it's the definition of peace.

[Arielle Okun]

Well, my last question is always my favorite one to ask everyone, because, everybody, this is where I've kind of amassed a library from. What is your favorite design book?

[Lindsey Johnson]

Oh, speaking of deporteau, I have their coffee table book. I can't remember what it's called.

[Arielle Okun]

That's a good one and an underrated one. It's really good.

[Lindsey Johnson]

It's really interesting because you can, like, see back. I mean, that's just. It's the stuff that we're thinking about all the time is just how to create, you know, beautiful prints and pattern but keep luxury quality. And it's very interesting for us specifically, but also just has a lot of beautiful history.

[Liz Eichols]

My most recent was the Cabana magazine, A Year in the French style. Mostly because I wanted.

[Arielle Okun]

That's a pretty one. I just ordered the Cabana Anthology, which is, like, all 10 years in one book.

[Liz Eichols]

Ooh.

[Arielle Okun]

Oh, wow. Yeah, it's. I'm pretty sure it's with Rizzoli. I just ordered that the other day. I haven't gotten it yet, but it looked amazing. And anything Martina does is insanely gorgeous.

[Liz Eichols]

So good.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah.

[Liz Eichols]

Another one I just ordered is the Rizzoli New York Parties, which I can't wait to get.

[Arielle Okun]

That's in our gift guide this year. I love that. Yes. It's on our gift guide for the Hostess. I feel like it's such a great book.

[Liz Eichols]

I'm so excited to get it.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, that Porto book is literally called Porto the Book.

[Lindsey Johnson]

No wonder I couldn't remember the name.

[Arielle Okun]

It's on their website as Porto the Book and then the Art of Luxury Linens. But it is a beautiful book and the photography is gorgeous and the forward is by Amy Astley.

[Liz Eichols]

I mean, shameless Plug. Put that with the wheezy new aprons and you have the perfect hostess gift.

[Arielle Okun]

Yes. The wheezy aprons are also on our gift card. Just going to say. Oh, yeah, they're really, really beautiful. And the tea towels are so cute, too.

[Liz Eichols]

They were so fun to make. All of the adjacent products, like, you know, our. Our bread and butter and our shining star will always be the bath towels. But all the adjacent products have been so fun to make.

[Arielle Okun]

Well, a final few words. What are you guys working on right now? Are there any new projects you can talk about?

[Liz Eichols]

So many. Yeah.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Like, we mentioned my bra already, but that one is coming in the new year, which is. It's going to be super exciting. It's. I would say it's one of our largest collections we've done with.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah, it's a big one.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Really exciting.

[Arielle Okun]

Wow. Oh, my God. I can't wait.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Yeah, I'm so excited about that. And then we also have an amazing Valentine's Day collection as well.

[Arielle Okun]

Fun. That's so cute. I can't wait to see.

[Liz Eichols]

Yeah, the Valentine's Day is always a fun one because it's so themy.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah.

[Liz Eichols]

But also, I think your design enthusiasts will love to hear we're coming out with a wheezy basics line.

[Arielle Okun]

Ooh.

[Liz Eichols]

So it's the same amazing luxury, Terry, for a sharper price point, because it's going to be without piping or the rounded corners. So some of the stuff that can add cost. It's great for your kids or your second home, so it'll be fun to see how that does.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, I love that. That's amazing. Well, the last question we ask everyone is always, what is your advice for someone who is looking to define their own interior style?

[Liz Eichols]

I think what I said earlier, just not being so focused on others, be patient and take your time. Read a lot of books and magazines. And I think we're so inundated with so much visual inspiration right now. And especially for me as a creative, I can see something and say, like, I understand what they were going for. I really like that. But there's a difference between that and when I look at a room, and my heart, like, skips a beat, and I feel like, oh, my God, I want that. I want to live in that room. Like, I want every inch of that. So really taking time to notice, like, what makes your heart skip a beat and being patient with defining your own style and remembering that it just for you.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Yeah. I think back to mine as something very similar. Just, like, being okay with it sort of evolving. Like, I think my style is changing all the time, and I think I'm not afraid to take risks. And honestly, I regret some of the things I did in my house, and I feel okay with that because it's like, I'm okay to make a decision, live with it, and then kind of evolve it over time. I think that's, like, one of the reasons why it's so fun to own a home is because it can live many lives in terms of design. So I think just being okay with evolving and, you know, making some mistakes and changing your style over time.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, I love that. It also. It helps people make decisions, too, because I think a lot of people get decision paralysis. And if you're okay with just pushing forward and accepting the fact that sometimes you're not going to hit it out of the park, you'll be able to make decisions more.

[Lindsey Johnson]

And I think it's the only way you learn, too. Like, this was the first time I ever. I mean, I was a renter for 10 years in New York before buying this house, and I definitely made some mistakes, but I learned so much in the process. You know, like, I picked things that, you know, in retrospect, I wish I hadn't, But I think it's, like, created now, like a muscle that you can kind of continue to flex as you grow older and, you know, buy another home or whatever it is.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, I love that. I think that's really great advice.

[Liz Eichols]

I remember once I was fretting over a design decision and felt like I had wasted all this money and yada, yada. And my mom said, on Nobody's Tomb, does it say she had a really nice house? Like, it's not that.

[Arielle Okun]

I love that. That's the perfect place to come to a close. I love that so much. Well, guys, where can listeners find more about you both and about Wheezy.

[Liz Eichols]

All things wheezy on wheezy towels.com and at wheezy Towels. And then you can find both of us at Liz Underscore Wheezy, and mine.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Is Lindsey Underscore Wheezy. We're super original.

[Liz Eichols]

Easy for y'all. And we have a discount code for your listeners.

[Arielle Okun]

Yes, tell us about the discount code. I think people will really be appreciative of that.

[Liz Eichols]

The discount code is Talk Shop15, and it is 15 off your entire order. You want to order ASAP. With the holidays coming, we'll have cut offs and all of that.

[Arielle Okun]

So I love it. Get your guest bathrooms ready and all of your gifts going because now is the time and you get 15% off. Well, Liz and Lindsay, thank you so much for coming on. This was so much fun. I always love getting to chat with you guys. You're like my, some of my favorite people in the industry.

[Liz Eichols]

Oh, thank you. Thank you for having us.

[Arielle Okun]

Yeah, of course. Thank you for coming on.

[Lindsey Johnson]

Thanks so much. It was so fun.

[Arielle Okun]

That's a wrap for this week's episode of Talkshop. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week with more thoughtful discussions and amazing guests. Follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify and YouTube, so you never miss an episode. And of course, follow me at arielokun. See you next week.