← Talk Shop with Ariel Okin: A Fenimore Lane Production
Talk Shop with Ariel Okin: A Fenimore Lane Production
Rhiannon & Travis Hageman // A Couple's Journey Scaling a Design/Build Firm in Five Years
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- [00:00]
Arielle Okun
What do you guys think your home says about you?
- [00:03]
Rhiannon
Well, I think that there's stains on all the upholstery. I think it says that we are creative, that we love entertaining and we love people in our home. We also are very relaxed.
- [00:17]
Travis
It's a sense of comfort when you walk in here. It really is a sense of home. Like it? It feels like a home.
- [00:24]
Arielle Okun
Welcome to Talkshop. I'm Arielle Okun, a New York based interior designer, writer and editor looking to bring a little bit of magic into our homes every day. After years as a writer and editor in the interiors world, I founded my own editorial site, Fenimore Lane, in 2020 and the TalkShop interview series was born. Each week I delve into the personal experiences of the top interior designers and tastemakers around the globe. For this week's episode, I'm welcoming our first husband and wife duo, Travis and Ranon Lead Hagman Homes, a residential interior design and custom home building firm located in Oakville, Ontario. The couple's path to design began with a love of traditional architecture, decoration and craftsmanship. What started as a custom home building firm has evolved into a boutique design studio where architectural storytelling and deeply personal interiors come together with beautiful results. Rhiannon's full service interior design approach celebrates the art of layering. From storied antiques and classic textiles to collective pieces that whisper of lives well lived, her spaces feel as though they've been thoughtfully assembled over generations, each room telling its own unique story. Travis brings his expertise in engineering, design and construction management to their practice, ensuring that every detail and architectural element is executed with precision and authenticity. Together, the couple believes that truly great homes should feel lived in and are to be enjoyed. Spaces where memories can be made without worry and where every corner holds something meaningful. Over the last five years together, the Hagemans have built a reputation for creating residences that honor traditional craftsmanship while embracing the way families really live. Their work has garnered attention throughout Canada and the U.S. with features in Veranda and House and Home, where they continue to craft spaces that feel both sophisticated and deeply personal, designed to be cherished for generations to come. So please join me as we welcome Rhiannon and Travis to the podcast. Hi guys. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. I'm so excited.
- [02:24]
Rhiannon
Hi, we're excited too. We're both here.
- [02:28]
Arielle Okun
Well, to kick off the conversation, can each of you describe your styles in three words or less?
- [02:35]
Rhiannon
So I will go first. I was trying to reflect on this and honestly the first thing that came to mind was full of emotion And I think that speaks about, specifically about my design work and, you know, what I want to accomplish with what we're doing. But that's what came to mind. And so I thought, why edit it?
- [02:53]
Arielle Okun
I love that. And you see it in your work. I feel like your work is so personal and homey and such a reflection of the clients and in a really beautiful way. So I love that.
- [03:05]
Rhiannon
Yeah. Thank you.
- [03:07]
Travis
Hi, it's Travis here. And my three words would be. I'm a little bit more direct with the words. It'd be traditional, historical and true.
- [03:16]
Arielle Okun
Yeah. Oh, I like that. And you can definitely see traditional and historical. And we'll get into that a little bit. And so for those listening, can you tell us a little bit about yourselves and where you are at this point in your lives and careers right now? Yeah.
- [03:30]
Rhiannon
So Travis and I are a husband and wife team. We're married. We've been married for 10 years. We live with our two children in Oakville, Ontario, which is about an hour outside of Toronto. And we are sitting in our home, which is also our office. We work from home together, which we love. And we decided on doing that because we have an 8 and 5 year old who we really adore and want to spend a lot of time with. So. So we are five years in on an amazing journey of this design build firm started as sort of a pipe dream of something we would do when we were 50. And it sort of came together a lot quicker than what we thought it would be. And so, yeah, yeah, I think it was.
- [04:17]
Travis
It's one of those things that I've been in construction right out of school and went to school for architecture and project management, and it's been a passion of mine from a very young age. But as we, when we met each other, we both had a passion for design and construction, and we're always doing things to our own homes over the years. And then again, as Ranon said, it's. It's a pipe dream that we had this, of let's build homes one day when we're older and, and kind of the opportunity presented itself at a couple years ago and we kind of just ran with it.
- [04:50]
Arielle Okun
That's amazing. Also, just the fact that you guys work together is so sweet and adorable. I love it so much.
- [04:57]
Rhiannon
It's a big deal. I think we take it lightly. But so many of our friends or colleagues or people are always like, I could never work with my spouse. And while I always say to them, it's such a gift because you think about what it feels like to create something with your team or when you accomplish something at work, we get to do that together as, you know, friends and lovers and partners. And it's just so incredibly rewarding to work together. And I think it goes back to, you know, Travis and I are very different people.
- [05:30]
Arielle Okun
Yeah. Especially when you're running a company.
- [05:32]
Rhiannon
Oh, totally. And, like, very different in our roles, very different in our personalities, very different in just how we work. And so I think it took a little while off the hop. Travis was coming out of corporate, and I was not coming out of corporate. Not even kind of corporate.
- [05:53]
Arielle Okun
You were an opera singer, right? Yeah.
- [05:55]
Rhiannon
Travis and I. So we'll go, like, back to the beginning a little bit. We met when we were 20. I was 20, Travis was 23. And we were very different and we didn't like each other at first.
- [06:06]
Travis
And then I was looking to get married and she was looking to be 20.
- [06:11]
Arielle Okun
Yeah.
- [06:13]
Rhiannon
And yeah, it was very sweet. We fell in love very quickly and went to my parents and they were like, oh, cool. Well, you guys are 20 and rhiannon just dropped out of theater school and Travis is leaving his job. So maybe you guys need to just like, figure out life a little bit.
- [06:30]
Arielle Okun
Oh, my God, that's so wild.
- [06:32]
Rhiannon
We were, like, young and in love and naive and sort of the best.
- [06:36]
Travis
And fearless.
- [06:37]
Rhiannon
Yeah, pretty. Like, pretty fearless. And so we got married. I was a mom to our son Henry, and incredibly grateful for that. And that season of life is something I look very fondly upon because I was a stay at home mom at that time. And Travis had a really lovely, you know, nine to five in corporate construction and never worked past five. And it was a beautiful season of our lives. But, you know, it was after that. And this is like, pretty tender, but we had two miscarriages after Henry, and it was a real. Just like a beautiful time of our lives for reflection. You know, obviously motherhood had been this goal and I had had Henry, and I absolutely loved being a mother, but there was this creative side of me that was, like, desperate for an outlet. And so Travis and I sort of started this conversation and he said, why don't you just try to even do like a really basic certificate in interior design and see if you like that and get your feet wet. And it was really special because it was the first time I'd ever finished something post high school. And even though it was just like a 12 module certificate, it was so valuable to me. It gave me confidence to go and finish something and kind of just decide that they were Was something post, you know, high school, post motherhood that I could put some weight into.
- [07:57]
Arielle Okun
That's really empowering.
- [07:58]
Rhiannon
It was incredibly empowering. It was a really, like, really exciting time. And again we were, you know, we thought, okay, we have Henry. He's a healthy, beautiful child. And we were just so grateful for that and really believed that the Lord had blessed us with him. And so we were like, okay, what next? And that was kind of when, you know, you weren't loving corporate construction.
- [08:20]
Travis
And my career was definitely on trending upwards. And again, coming from corporate construction, it was very commercial, institutional, large projects which were fantastic and gave a great base to, I would say, my career, as it is today, of just some of those processes and things that I needed to have first before doing something like this on my own. But yeah, it was always like, as a little kid, I always wanted to be an architect. And I never went forward with it. Never felt that I had the grades or the schooling to do it.
- [08:53]
Rhiannon
So the love of math.
- [08:54]
Travis
Yeah, the love of math and the things that were required. And so I always kind of took a different route and, and went into construction and. But still was always like, I really want to get involved in design more and there's only so much I could do. And. And that's where the conversations just kind of started. And with our first house, we gutted it ourselves back to the studs and did everything ourselves. I'd say about 75% of the work we did.
- [09:19]
Rhiannon
Yeah, it was like, that'll test your first year of marriage. We were like, it was like this really charming single, like this great little house in Toronto in a beautiful neighborhood. And we loved the process and similar to, you know, how so many people say, people came through and complimented us on all the selections and that was like, oh, you know, this is really neat. I really, I like this. And I'd never thought about interior design as a career or, you know, I never really had had any thoughts about what a career would look like. And so, And I don't think I.
- [09:50]
Travis
Really looked at it as, oh, this would be like, let's build homes or let's get in. Like for myself to get into design, I kind of just looked at it as, this is fun. I like doing it on the side and. But I was always being drawn back to design.
- [10:04]
Rhiannon
And I think pre construction and pre.
- [10:06]
Travis
Construction, that was the world I kind of lived in as. So I worked as an estimator and so I worked on the pre construction side of the projects. And that always interested me getting the Opportunity to work with architects and engineers and help develop a project. And that was the part that I really enjoyed.
- [10:23]
Arielle Okun
And that builds such a foundation for you, too, because it's almost like a finishing school in the sense that you learn all of the 101 basics that you need in order to do what you guys do today.
- [10:36]
Rhiannon
And I think there's no better construction manager or builder than someone who understands true estimation. The most important thing in a project is timeline, quality, and budget.
- [10:47]
Arielle Okun
Yeah, that's what keeps you on track.
- [10:49]
Rhiannon
And just keeps the client happy. I mean, I am so grateful for Travis's education and all of his knowledge. I think we are, like, together as a team, you've got complete intuition, which is me, and you've got, you know, education and processes and everything on that side. And together, obviously, it makes a really neat team because you need both, and both are so valuable. And one on itself doesn't necessarily equal success, but together, it's really interesting. So, long story short, then we start these conversations and we decide that we're going to start a design firm. I think one of the first things that we did actually, was we hired an amazing brand team called Malone Agency. And I just said to Travis and to my investor, my parents, that we needed to do this. And I just really have always believed that you really get sort of one chance out of the gate. I just thought that we needed to present ourselves how we wanted to be viewed and what was important to us. And it's a saturated market of home builders, and we knew that what we wanted to do was different. We didn't want to just put bare bones things into the house. I mean, besides the fact that it was a portfolio piece, I think one of the foundational things that has always been so important to Travis and I is that the homes that we build need to be built to the utmost possible standards. And we want to be able to walk by these homes in 20 years and see them standing as they were built. And that we knew that, you know, as a first go, this wasn't going to be cash in our pocket. We were going to probably, you know, either lose money or maybe break even on the project. But that was not the plan to run out of this thing with cash. We wanted to build the foundation of a company that we would hopefully be able to, you know, continue working towards building for many years to come.
- [12:41]
Arielle Okun
Yeah, it's an investment. And I think in the beginning, it's a really good point for any, you know, designers out there listening who are just starting their firms, you Know, I similarly, I started my firm on the side. I started doing it for fun. I kept my day job, I photographed my apartment that I was living in New York and that was sort of the basis for my portfolio. And when I take career calls, I always tell people, you know, shoot what you have and hire the best photographer that you can at the price point that you can and the best stylist and make it, you know, like you said, the utmost quality that it can be. Because really that first push out of the gate is what gets you the next, you know, year to two of work. And work begets work.
- [13:24]
Rhiannon
Yeah. We wanted to present ourselves with something that we would be proud of. And so, and we built this house and it was, it was amazing. I mean, it was such an incredible experience. I had no idea what I was doing and I was so incredibly hungry to learn. I was so excited about what we were doing. I'm the type of person where if I'm in on something, I'm in, there is no stopping me. We are forward moving.
- [13:54]
Travis
We're both like that on different ways I'm in, like, if it's something I don't know, I need to research it until I absolutely understand it at 2:00am.
- [14:03]
Arielle Okun
Yeah, that's like the engineering background.
- [14:06]
Travis
You're a bit like, you just want to like, you just have the passion and the.
- [14:10]
Rhiannon
Once a fire struck, it's really hard to put it out. And so we went forward. We broke ground on that project a week after we had Helen. So.
- [14:19]
Arielle Okun
Wow.
- [14:20]
Rhiannon
It was, it was nuts. It was really incredibly challenging at times. I mean, I was on site every single day. And I will say to anyone listening who's thinking about a career in design, like having enough humility to ask the question has moved us forward. Especially me just coming, being self taught and learning and coming from a background of knowing nothing about the industry, I cannot tell you how generous people have been with their time. I mean, down to the H vac gentlemen and every single. And trade. You know, if I walked in and I didn't know, I asked and I went home and studied and learned and tried to teach myself and brought it to Travis and he frustratingly tried to explain it to me that this is how it works. But you know, I just, I had never worked with a cabinet maker before and so I remember the meeting, they're still our cabinet maker. We have loyalty to these people and they are incredibly important to our business. But I walked in there with Henry on my hip and a set of drawings and people had said, oh, they're the best cabinet maker in town. And so that was what we wanted, was the best that we could afford and the best possible trades and craftsmen. So.
- [15:32]
Arielle Okun
And it's a really good point because when you're first starting out and you're self taught like I am also, you have to sort of just be a sponge and always be open to learning and asking questions and just sort of taking in as much as you can because there is so much to learn in the industry and you're constantly learning new things. But since that first project, you guys have seen your business grow exponentially. What has that trajectory looked like and how have you seen the business evolve?
- [16:02]
Rhiannon
What's really incredible and kind of what had happened next was another incredible opportunity. So we finished that project. We thought we would do it again, actually. We have to think through. We thought we would do it again. And so we bought another piece of land and invested with my dad again. And this piece of land got purchased in pre construction. And so we actually sold the project to the most incredible clients. And it was the first time that we got to work for clients. It's our Allen project for anyone who's been on our Instagram or seen it in House and Home. When it was published in the spring, it was so pretty, just unbelievable and such a huge opportunity. I had worked with a mentor ahead of starting this project and she would always say, like, you don't understand. People don't get projects like this as their second project because essentially we earned their trust. And it was almost like a show house. We built the house from the ground up. Travis built the most beautiful, just Georgian style home down by the water here in Oakville. And they brought their clothes and their banker's boxes and otherwise we did absolutely everything.
- [17:11]
Arielle Okun
That's crazy.
- [17:12]
Travis
Well, again, we started it with the intention of selling it. And so it was, we bought the land, we designed the home, worked through it together. And at the time, like I wasn't licensed to design here, so we still worked with an architect, but we kind of showed up with, here's the plans, here's what we want it to look like. And it was our kind of our baby that we wanted to work with. And we knew we wanted to build something that was, it's in a heritage district in Oakville and we wanted it to feel like it had been there for 100 years already and not stand out from the rest of the homes, but feel like it fits in, which is kind of a foreign concept to the area we're in where most people, when it's new. They want it to look new and different.
- [17:50]
Arielle Okun
Yeah.
- [17:51]
Travis
Where. Here we go. Kind of with the mindset of I want the home to feel like it fits in with the neighborhood.
- [17:57]
Arielle Okun
Yeah. Well, it's a sense of place which I think is so important.
- [18:00]
Rhiannon
And so we sort of embarked on this incredible discovery journey again. In the first project, we hadn't done any furniture because we were selling it on spec. And now all of a sudden we were going to furnish, you know, a 4,000 square foot home from scratch. And so I am incredibly grateful. I have a mentor named Cynthia Ferguson. She's a Toronto design and we have different aesthetics, but she has been an unbelievable gift to our business. I am so grateful for her. I call her my fairy godmother. And we hired her to consult for us and to teach us right after we finished that, the first project. And she was incredible. I mean, again, I'd never worked with a workroom before. I had never paper backed fabric. I had never.
- [18:43]
Arielle Okun
Yeah, you were like just starting. You kind of had to. You dove headfirst in.
- [18:48]
Rhiannon
And Travis said, you know, we knew what we loved. I think that's what's really special about both of us, is that we both have a strong sense of what we love and we are really quick and confident to honor that and to stick with it. And so I think while there was a lot of edits on that project, we just went forward confidently with what we were excited about. And again, I knew this would be a big piece and a big opportunity for us. And so they really allowed us to run wild and just anything that I dreamed of, they were excited about. We used Gracie wallpaper and, you know, paperback venison for her room. And all the millwork was custom. Travis brought up flooring from baba in North Carolina. 200-year-old oak, like just truly things that you would dream of working with.
- [19:35]
Travis
I think the key thing about that project was we had clients who believed in the vision that we had for the home.
- [19:41]
Rhiannon
Yeah.
- [19:42]
Travis
And that was key. They didn't want it to be fussy, over the top or it is like we want it to be quality. And so if you guys are so passionate about these products or building it this way, then we're behind you on that. And that was the gift with that project. Again, having clients who understood the vision that we had for the project.
- [20:04]
Arielle Okun
Yeah. I think what's so interesting to me is that you guys, you do interior design, but you also build homes from the ground up. And so that's a really unique.
- [20:14]
Rhiannon
There's A lot there. And, you know, I think it's really interesting because it's an extremely rare find that someone is involved strictly from design all the way to actually doing construction management. And I think what we have learned, and I think going back to your question of how have things evolved as the business is sort of shifting, and especially for you, as Travis really realizes his passion for architecture, you know, he now has the ability to stamp drawings in Ontario. And so I think it's shifting a little bit, and I think it's going to be really interesting. And we're really excited for what the next sort of season chapter brings for the business, because I think what we originally started with as a design build firm has shifted so much into a design firm. And I think, as Travis has seen me just grow in such a deep love and passion for interiors and for what the work that I get to do, I think he's really realized that perhaps he wants to be more involved in the design side of the business. So I think, yeah, I think that's been really interesting to. Just as our minds have opened up and we've learned how much goes into design and how important it is, and learning from all these different people and listening and just adoring your podcast and so many other ways that we've just heard people speak about it, I think the world has felt like a bit of our oyster in terms of what the business can be on the design side. And so what I do think is incredible, though, and I'm always grateful for, is that because Travis has built homes and understands that side of things, it allows him to consult and to speak to our clients and encourage them in such a different way. Because he's like, not only am I going to design this for you, I know how it's going to go together. I know the things that are going to be used to build, and it.
- [22:00]
Arielle Okun
Gives you guys a unique opportunity to kind of be mentored. And you can kind of pick and choose, especially when you're building on spec, you can pick and choose sort of what architects you want to learn from. So it's a really fascinating business model that you guys have built, and you should be really proud of that. I mean, to do all of this in five years is really amazing.
- [22:19]
Rhiannon
Yeah, it's been a busy five years. I know both of us are like.
- [22:23]
Travis
The other week we were thinking about, I feel like we have a little bit of an imposter syndrome.
- [22:27]
Arielle Okun
I still feel that way, and I've been doing this for almost 10 years, but it's I think when you are self taught and you pivot careers, there's always a little bit of that. But then as you learning and keep doing it, it kind of fades less and less. But I think it's always there too, you know, And I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. I think it kind of always keeps you hungry and it keeps you always wanting to learn more. Yeah. Which in the end is really not. Not a bad thing.
- [22:57]
Rhiannon
I just feel so incredibly grateful. I know you feel this way too, Arielle, but just this doesn't feel like a job to me.
- [23:04]
Arielle Okun
I. I feel the same way.
- [23:06]
Rhiannon
I couldn't not do this now. It feeds my soul. Like, I love this work. I would be desperate without the opportunity to be creative and to work with our clients and appreciate our craftsmen and the people who, you know, take our designs and bring them to life. Like, it really energizes me, and I absolutely just. It is such a privilege to have a career and a job that has rarely felt like work.
- [23:32]
Arielle Okun
Yeah, it's a big blessing.
- [23:34]
Rhiannon
It's such a blessing. And so I still just pinch myself that this is something that we get to do every single day.
- [23:41]
Arielle Okun
And I. I know. I feel so great. I feel the same way.
- [23:44]
Rhiannon
I know it's a beautiful thing. And not everybody, it really is, has that. And so, you know, I never want to take that for granted. And I never want to forget just how special it is. And I think that's also been a part of Travis and my success is a little bit that each of our clients is really important to us. And it goes back to, again, the business model. There's definitely been opportunities in the last little while, especially to bulk up the firm and grow substantially, to not have to turn down projects that we're excited about. But we've both said from the beginning, we want to be involved. We want our hand on each project. We want to be the ones communicating to clients. And so again, just thinking that we really. We want to be in the weeds with people. And.
- [24:33]
Arielle Okun
Yeah, one of my favorite pieces of advice that I've read was that Albert Hadley told Miles Red to stay small. And I think that that is really helpful when you're thinking about scaling, because ultimately people are coming for you.
- [24:50]
Rhiannon
What's so interesting about being self taught is that while I think, you know, obviously I've learned the skills to execute what comes to my mind, it's. It just comes. So much of what I do and how I design is based off of a feeling and intuition and just a Sense of things. Often, you know, people will say, how do you think come up with this? Like, I love this. I'm like, I have no idea. I don't know. It just came. It just sort of.
- [25:20]
Arielle Okun
Yeah. The beauty of creativity in general is that it can be so innate. And, you know, a lot of the soft skills can't be taught, whereas, like, the hard skills, like CAD and SketchUp and whatnot, of course, can be. But that innateness is something that I think is really there or not. And then it. And. And then it gets honed. Right. Like, your eye travels. You work with mentors, you see it. You know, as you grow, your design evolves and you grow and your style grows. But a lot of that is innate, and I think it's amazing that you were able to recognize that and build that into a business. Is there a favorite element about the design process for you both?
- [26:01]
Travis
For me, I love trying to solve a problem.
- [26:03]
Rhiannon
Yeah, you do.
- [26:04]
Travis
And whether it's designing a new home that you're trying to make look old and have that historical precedent to it, or whether it's taking a beautiful heritage home and trying to redo it and make Bringing in those modern elements while also respecting the past. And I think that's the part I love. The element that's really favorite to me is really trying to solve a problem.
- [26:31]
Rhiannon
And I would say I love the beginning of a design, of the relationship. I would say, yeah, I really love people. I think it's part of what makes me good at my job, too, is that I adore people. I'm an extrovert. I love the puzzle of people I love at the beginning. You know, I think, again, Travis and I really want to design homes and spaces for people. So it's not about what I want in my living room. It's about what the client wants. How do they live? What's important to them? What do their memories look like? What does their future look like? How do they celebrate holidays? I think getting into the weeds with people about who they are and what they love and what they're inspired by, that's always just so special to me to learn about them. And then I'll also say I am incredibly inspired by textiles and fashion fabrics. It's always just my favorite element. It's where I start. You know, sometimes I'll pull all the fabrics before even looking at a floor plan, which is not really responsible, but it just. When it comes, it comes. And obviously, there's always.
- [27:37]
Arielle Okun
I do that too, sometimes.
- [27:38]
Rhiannon
Lots of edits and etc. But again, I love textiles. I'm always inspired and love to continue to learn about antique textiles and so many different fabric companies and houses that we adored working with over the years and are very loyal to, and vice versa. So I love that beginning part of a project where, you know, you start to scheme and start to pull ideas and you figured out the client, you think. And I'm very collaborative as a designer, too. I really spend a lot of time in discovery. Sometimes it's even putting fabrics in front of clients at the beginning and getting their reaction. I always say to them, you know, my ego is not here right now, and I really need you to just react to it. And if it's a negative reaction, that actually helps me, too, because then I'm able to sort of take a wide range of inspiration that you've showed me and start to funnel it down. And I always say that to our clients. Absolutely. It's a funnel, and we start wide, and then we slowly funnel down to what ends up being, you know, a space that will be wonderful for them and their family for what I hope is a long time to come. We really try to design spaces that will be with families for a long time. I think longevity is really important to me.
- [28:46]
Arielle Okun
So, yeah, I think that shows, too. Is there a design rule that you guys always follow or one that you think is made to be broken?
- [28:55]
Travis
I think if you would have asked me two years ago after I did the ICA intensive, I would have been like, you have to stick to all the rules of the classical orders. And now, I think after a couple years now of really learning more about it is. And listening to other architects speak about it, it's not about. I think it's. You want to start with that, but I think there's areas that you can move outside of it. I think what I've always said, I want the homes to feel scaled and proportionate.
- [29:25]
Arielle Okun
Yeah.
- [29:26]
Travis
It doesn't matter what type of style you're doing. I think if your scale and proportion is off, it really affects the overall project, whether it's the interior or exterior. And I think once if you have that right, you can really start to play with a lot of different elements.
- [29:39]
Rhiannon
Yeah. I think even on the interior side as well. I would say the same thing.
- [29:43]
Arielle Okun
Mm. I agree.
- [29:44]
Rhiannon
I wouldn't say that there's a lot of rules, and I tend not to focus on sort of trends and those sorts of things. But what I do think is important, and I think one of the hardest things to learn is scale and how, you know, you can get everything right in a room, but if the sofa's too big or the side table's too small or the lampshade, like, I made those errors not on sofas as much, but on lampshades for sure. And thankfully, mostly for my own house. But, you know, little things like that where a few inches make all the difference and from the eye being completely pleased to things sticking out like a sore thumb. So I would say scale as well on my side, and that's taken some time for me as well. I think Travis has been incredibly helpful in teaching me a lot about scale, and I now hand draw all of our floor plans and then send them off to get them into cad. But I didn't know how to use a scale until about, you know, a year and a half ago. And so that's been a big learning curve for me, too. Just being able to now have that as something I can do and not having to lean on Travis for him to do that for me. And so I've loved just sort of continuing to explore that and learn. And I think, again, I think that's something that, you know, it is only year five. There's going to be things that, you know, we don't get perfect, but that I will continue to just hone in on that skill. And I think one of the things that we've always said, too, is when we make a mistake, hopefully it's not a big mistake, and we do lots of things to make sure, especially using supportive mentors. And thankfully, there haven't been too many big things. But if I make something wrong, I make it right. That is my job. At the end of the day, it's the last thing that I install in a home that the client is going to remember, and that's the lasting impression. So if we get a single thing wrong at the end, we got lampshades wrong on a project and we ordered new ones immediately. And obviously I eat the cost of that, and that's just good business sense. And a mentor had said that, too. It's very important. It's important, and people appreciate that. People will not remember, necessarily a small mistake, but they absolutely will remember how you make it up and how you.
- [31:55]
Arielle Okun
Take responsibility and how you made them.
- [31:56]
Rhiannon
Feel and how you've made them feel. And having humility. I think my dad's always said to me, you keep your head, head down and your shoulders back. And I've always taken that to just mean that, you know, you stay focused and your head is down and you keep the humility but that you really do trudge forward and you keep learning and you challenge yourself to grow. And I've always just really loved that we've taken that to heart in all that we try to do.
- [32:20]
Arielle Okun
Speaking of advice, is there what is the best advice for designing interiors that you guys have ever received, and from who?
- [32:27]
Rhiannon
It's not really advice, but growing up in my parents house and being in my grandmother's house, she lived in London, in England, and she had a massive influence on me. It's about how you make people feel. And that is so important to me in every single thing that we do. And I think that it shows in our work. I love things that are beautiful. I love things that are layered and special. And arguably some people might say that they're fancier than others, but it's never with pretension. I want people to feel easy and relaxed and like they can live in their spaces and that things aren't too precious. And so I think, you know, that's been sort of ingrained in me. My parents had a beautiful house, but nothing was ever too special to be enjoyed, you know, down to the silverware and their beautiful living room and all these things. I think just. Just the idea that I. And I try to remind my clients of this, you know, don't hesitate on investing in beautiful things that you love with a fear that they might get ruined, because that is a silly way to lose out on beauty. And that is so important.
- [33:36]
Arielle Okun
Yeah, I say this all the time, but your home really is one of the biggest investments that people make. And, you know, it should be lived in. And you shouldn't be afraid to drink red wine in the living room. You shouldn't be afraid to let your kids play. You know, and there are creative workarounds for making these spaces livable and functional and beautiful at the same time. So I think that's great advice. What do you guys think your home says about you?
- [34:00]
Rhiannon
Well, I think that there's stains on all the upholstery, which speaks to exactly what I just said and the English blood in me. Yeah, I think it says that we are creative, that we love entertaining and we love people in our home. I think, you know, we restored the house that we're in a year ago. It's a really lovely colonial revival house in Oakville here. And I think it says that we care about the details, but that we also are, you know, very relaxed. And.
- [34:32]
Travis
Yeah, I think it's.
- [34:33]
Arielle Okun
Yeah.
- [34:33]
Rhiannon
What do you think?
- [34:34]
Travis
It's a sense of comfort when you walk in here. It really is a sense of home. Like, it feels like a home again. We bought the house from a family that had lived here for. For 50 years.
- [34:46]
Arielle Okun
And oh, that's so sweet.
- [34:48]
Rhiannon
Such a beautiful story.
- [34:49]
Travis
They went, yeah, we wanted to continue that knowing that we're gonna raise our kids here too. Like, we both kind of looked at this house of being like, right now there's no intention to go anywhere. Like, I would love it if, you know, we could be in this house for 50 years.
- [35:03]
Arielle Okun
And yeah, so that's so special.
- [35:05]
Travis
That's how we decorated it. That's how we. Any of the work we did on it, the renovation, everything was with the intention of, of. We want this to be our home and want our kids to feel comfortable here. We want to feel comfortable here again. It's our refuge from work, even though we work from here. But it's also, at the same time, friends always say to us, like, you have a perfect portfolio piece. It's your house when people come into it. And it's that same thing of we want somebody to come in here and feel like, oh, this feels like a house. This feels like a family home. This feels like home. And that's what we want everyone else to feel when they come in here.
- [35:42]
Arielle Okun
Well, at the end of every episode, we always do our take 10, which are rapid fire questions. So I wanted to ask you, what's your favorite food for each of you? Oh, gosh.
- [35:51]
Rhiannon
Mine's probably any sort of Italian food. Like anything that is high with cheese and pasta and carbs and bread.
- [36:00]
Arielle Okun
Me too.
- [36:01]
Rhiannon
Anything cozy that the Italians make, I'll probably.
- [36:04]
Arielle Okun
Me too.
- [36:05]
Travis
I would say I would be very much in line with that and a good steak.
- [36:09]
Rhiannon
Yeah, sure.
- [36:11]
Arielle Okun
Yep. My husband is addicted to Instagram videos of making steak. He like, loves to cook. He's like such a foodie and he loves to cook. We have a smoker. He likes brisket. Oh, yeah, yeah, he loves it.
- [36:24]
Rhiannon
Don't get any ideas.
- [36:27]
Arielle Okun
Favorite drink.
- [36:28]
Rhiannon
Mine would be a diet Coke with lime.
- [36:31]
Travis
Mine would be an old fashioned.
- [36:32]
Arielle Okun
Favorite film.
- [36:33]
Rhiannon
Oh, honestly, I'm not a movie person.
- [36:37]
Arielle Okun
That's okay.
- [36:38]
Rhiannon
I love. I'm not. I love all sorts of old movies. And, you know, interiors are obviously really special to me, but I don't have one. That's my honest answer.
- [36:49]
Travis
I'm the opposite. I love all movies. I will watch movies that most people will go, well, how are you watching that? I was like, I just love the enjoyment of watching a movie.
- [36:59]
Rhiannon
Do you have a favorite?
- [36:59]
Travis
But I would trend towards biographies, real life stories. And especially history pieces. Anything that is back in a period of time, I definitely am more drawn to.
- [37:11]
Rhiannon
Cool.
- [37:11]
Arielle Okun
I feel like there's the classicist architect coming out of you. Yeah, exactly. Favorite hotel.
- [37:18]
Rhiannon
My family has a home on Nevis, which is a tiny island in the Caribbean, and there's a hotel called Montpellier Inn, and we've gone there for years as a family, and they are. It's just beautiful. It's quiet. Princess Diana used to take her boys.
- [37:34]
Arielle Okun
Beautiful.
- [37:35]
Rhiannon
Oh, Nevis is, like, absolutely magical. It feels like you've stepped back in time. So I would say Montpellier. We've had lots of beautiful memories there as a family. Yeah.
- [37:43]
Travis
I would say the same thing again. It's partly. It's the people. Like, we go there all the time, and it's just such a wonderful opportunity to see these people every year.
- [37:53]
Arielle Okun
One of my best friends from college actually grew up going there every winter.
- [37:56]
Rhiannon
Oh, no way. It's a smaller place. Not a lot of people know of it, but it's beautiful.
- [38:01]
Arielle Okun
Yeah, there's, like a small. I feel like there's, like, a small. Small community of people that, like, all kind of know each other because they've grown up going there every winter.
- [38:07]
Rhiannon
Yeah, there is. My parents have a whole amazing group of friends, and we love being with them. Like, they're expats or people from all over the US and, yeah, it's been great. We go down and. Exactly. Like Travis. The island is 30 square kilometers. It's tiny.
- [38:20]
Arielle Okun
I know. It's so small.
- [38:22]
Rhiannon
It's so tiny. But it is magic. And every time that we're there, we don't want to leave. And that just is a really special feeling. There's not many places. Places in the world where I genuinely could always stay an extra week, and Nevis is that for us.
- [38:35]
Travis
So I always. I always. That's when you know it's a good trip, when you. When you go somewhere and you never want to leave.
- [38:40]
Rhiannon
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [38:41]
Arielle Okun
100%. What is your favorite city?
- [38:46]
Rhiannon
I would say London.
- [38:47]
Travis
Yeah, we both.
- [38:48]
Rhiannon
You, too.
- [38:48]
Travis
We're the same.
- [38:49]
Rhiannon
Oh, gosh.
- [38:50]
Arielle Okun
I can sense a bit of, like, an Anglophile aesthetic, too, with you guys and your work, so I feel like that makes sense.
- [38:57]
Rhiannon
My dad is an only child, and his family is all back in London and Wales. And so every year growing up as a little girl, we would go over and visit his family and travel all over London and Wales and then all over Europe as we got older, they would add a week somewhere, and I just have such fond memories of being in My grandmother's homes and just loving how special they were. And I've always just loved the way the English design and how they're placed places feel and all the shops. It's just a beautiful city. So I would say London. And you too?
- [39:27]
Travis
I would say London too. Again, there's both. From the aesthetics to the time that we've spent there. I would say one other city that comes to mind is Rome. And that's just, for me, just the pure. I'm a big history buff. Yeah. And so there's just so much history there and it's just fascinating.
- [39:46]
Arielle Okun
What about bedding? I know designers are so particular about their bedding.
- [39:49]
Rhiannon
You want to go first? He's like, what do you like?
- [39:53]
Travis
What?
- [39:55]
Rhiannon
Well, I am very careful to suggest porto because obviously it comes at a really special price point. But I invest in those pieces. I love them. They are special. I love what they add to a room. But I also like the Land's End bedding that Annie suggests that everyone loves. It's on our kids beds under their Corso bed.
- [40:14]
Arielle Okun
I have it on my bed. It's amazing.
- [40:17]
Rhiannon
Why did you buy us expensive sheets? Why didn't you just get us those? So you know, I like a high, low mix. That's what I would say. I collect the one and then we love the other for just every day replacement.
- [40:29]
Arielle Okun
That's my approach too.
- [40:30]
Rhiannon
Yeah. It works well.
- [40:32]
Arielle Okun
Tea or coffee? And how do you take it?
- [40:35]
Travis
Coffee.
- [40:35]
Rhiannon
Yeah. You're a coffee and I'm not really a coffee. I don't really drink coffee or alcohol. Just based off of pure choice. Not for any other reason. The odd time I'll drink half a cappuccino, meaning that I'll order a cappuccino and then only drink half of it.
- [40:50]
Arielle Okun
But that's so funny. I do that too, because I feel like I can never. It's like by the time it gets cold, you're halfway through and then I. It. I can't drink it if it's lukewarm.
- [40:59]
Rhiannon
Anyone who comes into our house knows that if I've been in a room, there's a half drink. Drink.
- [41:03]
Arielle Okun
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:05]
Travis
Cups everywhere.
- [41:06]
Arielle Okun
So funny. My husband makes fun of me because I always have like 12 cups next to my side of the bed. He's like, bring them downstairs, everywhere. Favorite playlist or music to listen to.
- [41:18]
Rhiannon
We listen to a lot of just jazz. All sorts of jazz. Yeah. I always try to have jazz playing in the house when we're working. I find it also settles the kids. Yeah.
- [41:29]
Arielle Okun
Yeah.
- [41:30]
Rhiannon
We just always have all sorts of music playing. Like Nancy Meyer's Kitchen sort of stuff. Anything like that. That's easy listening. I love Etta and old classics, so just we have a random assortment of jazz that just sort of plays at all times. I don't know, it just sort of is on in the house. I've never really looked at who's on there, but anything that just is. No lyrics, just quiet. Feels really good. And we're both inspired by that. Although you really like really loud, weird music. What's that that you like to listen to on the odd time?
- [42:00]
Travis
I'll listen to when you're studying. When you're studying electronic music. Just like, again, it's that music with no vocals to it.
- [42:08]
Rhiannon
Just makes no sense.
- [42:10]
Travis
Makes no sense.
- [42:11]
Arielle Okun
I feel like when you're zoned in on something, that kind of music can be helpful because it's like. Like you're just kind of zoning in.
- [42:17]
Rhiannon
Stuff going on in my mind that I can't listen to it, but I do always laugh. We'll get into the car and like, Armin Van Buren will play and the kids will love it because Travis clearly was like deep in a drawing and.
- [42:28]
Arielle Okun
I'm just like, it's so funny. My husband loves that stuff too. We'll like drive into the city and like, whatever, like EDM he had on, like, oh, okay, I'm changing this now.
- [42:38]
Rhiannon
Back to the jazz, if you don't mind.
- [42:41]
Arielle Okun
Yeah, that's so funny.
- [42:42]
Rhiannon
But whatever you need to be creative, you do it.
- [42:45]
Arielle Okun
Exactly. Favorite weekend activity.
- [42:48]
Rhiannon
Oh, I would just say time with our family, with our children. Yeah.
- [42:53]
Travis
Again, this is. We're just like, come. Well, fall and Christmas is like our favorite.
- [42:58]
Rhiannon
Yeah.
- [42:58]
Travis
Periods of the year. And I would say a good, like just being outside. There's a place around the corner that we love to go for a walk that all the time it's just kind of out by the lake and go down by the water, skip rocks. Like, it's just, just. It's such a fun activity, I'd say.
- [43:14]
Rhiannon
Yeah. I think time together as a family, time with friends. We're so grateful for just the people in our lives. My parents live six houses down from us, so we spend.
- [43:23]
Arielle Okun
That's so nice.
- [43:24]
Rhiannon
It's amazing. It's so special. So we spend a ton of time with them on the weekends.
- [43:28]
Travis
And I'd say the cottage, that's our go to place for summer and winter.
- [43:34]
Rhiannon
Yeah. We ski in the winters. On the weekend we drive up north two hours from the house, ski with the kids, and that's a beautiful time to get away again. It's hard. I think probably you can relate to this too. It's hard to shut off a designer's mind. Yeah, it's always, you know, I'm always inspired by something, excited by something in deep on something, trying to figure out, you know, a hem on something, whatever it might be.
- [43:58]
Arielle Okun
So I know I work often, like when the kids nap, pick back up for a little bit. And one of the benefits of working from home when you have kids is that you get to see them. But it's also hard because sometimes they'll run in or, you know, it's harder to blur the line between like, okay, I'm doing, you know, just work right now, or, you know, so it can make the day. Not 100% work sometimes. And that makes it harder. And then you have to pick back up at like, you know, eight or nine o'clock at night for a couple hours.
- [44:25]
Rhiannon
Yeah, that's how we work. We drop the kids at school together, we work till three or four, one of us picks them up or we pick them up together. We parent joyfully until bedtime, and then we usually are back to work.
- [44:38]
Arielle Okun
My last question, which is my favorite question for everyone, and it's always really tricky, is what is your favorite design book?
- [44:45]
Rhiannon
Yeah, I would say I opened Mario Broado's book that Emily Erdmans did a lot lately I'm so inspired by.
- [44:53]
Arielle Okun
She has two.
- [44:55]
Rhiannon
Oh, and it's the one with the blue cover. That is.
- [44:57]
Arielle Okun
Yeah. The most recent one. It's great.
- [45:00]
Rhiannon
It's beautiful. I love, you know, what he did and how inspiring he was and how his rooms, especially on floor plans and layouts and drapery and window dressings, I'm just continually inspired. So I would say that for me, lately it shifts all the time, but that's what I've been looking at. And what do you think?
- [45:17]
Travis
For me, one of the books that I'm always going to is get your house right.
- [45:23]
Rhiannon
Yeah.
- [45:24]
Arielle Okun
Yeah, that's a good one. Oh, it's amazing.
- [45:26]
Travis
It's fantastic. And again, I think it's just because it's so practical.
- [45:30]
Rhiannon
Yeah.
- [45:30]
Travis
To what we're doing of. If I'm ever contemplating or questioning something, I start with this. And then from there it usually stems off into either older books on very. On the classical orders or I'm looking at inspiration. And the books that we have, all three books from Gil Schafer are just phenomenal.
- [45:51]
Arielle Okun
I love diving into my holy trinity.
- [45:53]
Rhiannon
Yeah, it's hard not to.
- [45:57]
Travis
Rhiannon's just collected, I would say every week there's a new book that's coming here, and there's just so much inspiration from them.
- [46:05]
Arielle Okun
Just a lot of you can learn.
- [46:06]
Travis
So much designers that you follow and.
- [46:09]
Rhiannon
Yeah.
- [46:09]
Arielle Okun
Well, a final few words. This has been so fun.
- [46:13]
Rhiannon
It's been really special to be reflective. It's been a busy couple years and excited. We're really looking forward to the next chapter and the next. Hopefully, many more years to come.
- [46:24]
Arielle Okun
Yeah. What are you guys working on right now? Are there any new projects you can talk about?
- [46:28]
Rhiannon
I have a lot of decorating projects all over the US and here that are kind of going to come together. It's funny, I remember you saying you go through years where you're not photographing a lot and you're not installing a lot, and you're back on the boards and designing a lot, and then the next year, it sort of all, you know, comes together. So I'm really looking forward to seeing a lot of projects come together next year. I think that'll be really rewarding. And then.
- [46:52]
Travis
Yeah, I think right now I'm working on a project locally here, doing a covered porch addition that's going to be really spectacular. It's on a beautiful heritage house in the area, and we're adding on this beautiful covered porch that, again, looks like it's been there for a while. And I think it's just really going to add such a great element to this home.
- [47:13]
Rhiannon
Well, it's Travis's first project, doing the entire architectural plan as well, which is really exciting for you.
- [47:19]
Arielle Okun
It's so exciting. It is the first.
- [47:22]
Travis
First one for not since being licensed, and it's. Yeah, it's going to be exciting to kind of go through it from start to finish again.
- [47:29]
Rhiannon
They're incredible clients and so trusting of us, which is just such a privilege. So. Yeah, otherwise, we're excited. Lots of. Lots of new stuff coming up in terms of projects. I think it'll be really neat to just see a lot of this work come together that we've been working on. I feel like both of us have really found where we want to be in terms of our own aesthetic. And so I think it'll be really special to see some of these projects come together in the next little while that really speak to what we want to bring and what we want to show people.
- [48:00]
Travis
Yeah. And I think also the growth of just from all over North America now that that's really been an interesting. Over the last.
- [48:08]
Rhiannon
Yeah, we're working all over, so that's really really neat. Big challenges and big, exciting opportunities, and we're just grateful to be learning how to do that.
- [48:18]
Arielle Okun
That's amazing. And you should be so proud of yourselves or expanding so quickly. I mean, it's really. What you guys have built in five years is really impressive.
- [48:27]
Rhiannon
I really appreciate that. I've been always so grateful for your, you know, encouragement, and just this podcast has been another huge learning curve. I love hearing. Oh, good.
- [48:37]
Arielle Okun
I'm so glad.
- [48:38]
Rhiannon
The winding. So happy, everyone. It's just so beautiful to see. You know, I. I love it because very rarely is someone like, well, I wanted to be an interior designer, and so I went to school, and now I'm here.
- [48:48]
Arielle Okun
I feel like in the past, like, you know, 10, 15 years younger students are able to have that path, but like, a lot of people, it just wasn't an option or it wasn't a reality, or there weren't the programs.
- [49:00]
Rhiannon
As someone with a bit of a windy story into the industry, it's just always really been exciting and encouraging for me. So I've loved that.
- [49:07]
Arielle Okun
Yeah, the career pivot stories are always my favorite.
- [49:10]
Rhiannon
It's so special, I know. Especially when you can see that people just absolutely love it. And it's sort of like, I remember I went up to my mom's interior designer, and this was just as we were starting, and I said, vicki, I'm gonna. I think I want to be an interior designer. And she was like, honey, of course you are. You were picking wallpaper in your bedroom at three.
- [49:30]
Arielle Okun
That's amazing. Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes it's just so innate, and you don't even realize it until you're leader in life.
- [49:37]
Rhiannon
Yeah. Yeah. And then here we are, and it feels like, yeah, I can't imagine doing anything else. And it really is so special to be doing it together. I think it is very special. What we have is really unique, and we don't take it for granted, and we protect it very closely. And, yeah, I'm excited. I'm really looking forward to what's next.
- [49:55]
Arielle Okun
Beautiful. Well, our last question that we ask everyone, any advice that you have for someone looking to define their own interior style?
- [50:03]
Rhiannon
I think just the more that you can look at and the more that you can try to understand about this business and, you know, what makes a space, what makes a room. Just really trying to funnel that down is so helpful. Just explore, I think, you know, pop into shops and talk to people and have the humility to ask the question and travel and open books and watch movies and really just expose yourself to as much as you possibly can. And then from there, not being afraid to confidently say what you love. I mean, you know, it's about your own personal life and aesthetic and home. And that's what I was going to.
- [50:44]
Travis
Say is really kind of honing in on what you love. Like, obviously, you have the opportunity to design for other people and what they love, but if you. If you don't love what you're designing, I would say that becomes challenging. I would say stick with what you love. If you have an aesthetic that you love, then stick with that and really jump into it and dive into it.
- [51:05]
Rhiannon
You know, we dove in headfirst, and it shows and it's been wonderful.
- [51:11]
Arielle Okun
And look where it got you. It's amazing.
- [51:13]
Rhiannon
Yeah, jump in.
- [51:15]
Arielle Okun
Fantastic. Well, where can listeners find more about you and your brand?
- [51:20]
Rhiannon
Well, you can Google us at Hageman Homes and Interiors or our Instagram is where we share a lot about sort of daily projects and our family a little bit and our life and our work, and that is Hageman Homes Interiors.
- [51:34]
Arielle Okun
Well, both of you, thank you so much for joining me today. This was such a delight. This was really love hearing your story, and it's just so inspiring. So I really am so grateful that you guys came on today.
- [51:46]
Rhiannon
Oh, thank you. We've loved it. It's really special to reflect. I'm so grateful. Yeah, thank you. Okay, well, we'll talk to you soon.
- [51:53]
Arielle Okun
Next time you're in New York, let me know. And I would love to meet you guys.
- [51:56]
Rhiannon
Oh, we'd love that, too. We'll see you soon.
- [52:00]
Arielle Okun
That's a wrap for this week's episode of Talk Shop. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week with more thoughtful discussions and amazing guests. Follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify and YouTube, so you never miss an episode. And of course, follow me at arielokun. See you next week.