How Do I Raise Emotionally Intelligent & Responsible Men?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Talkaboutable with Dr. Susan Swick

Episode: "How Do I Raise Emotionally Intelligent & Responsible Men?"
Release Date: November 4, 2025
Host: Dr. Susan Swick
Guest: Single father of 21-year-old twin sons

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the challenges of parenting young adult men, especially through the transitional period between adolescence and full adulthood. Dr. Susan Swick talks with a single father raising 21-year-old identical twin sons, exploring issues around fostering emotional intelligence, responsibility, and the delicate balance between stepping in and letting go as children become adults. The conversation candidly covers anxiety, mental health, family hardship, intergenerational dynamics, and the unique experiences—both messy and joyous—of parenting sons into manhood.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Family Dynamics and Background

• The guest is a single father; his 21-year-old twin sons and elderly parents live together in California.
• The boys work and study together, attending the same community college and having part-time jobs at the same restaurant (host and to-go orders).
• The household also includes the father's parents, who have health issues: his father is a stubborn kidney transplant recipient prone to denying illness, and his mother is recently retired and struggling with back problems and medication adjustments.
  Timestamp: 01:34–04:16

The Twins’ Strengths and Individual Journey

• Older brother: Loyal, goal-oriented, and determined, particularly with academics and career. He makes sacrifices for long-term success—traits the father admires, noting, “That’s something I don’t think I did at his age.” (04:06)
• Younger brother: Diagnosed with Tourette’s in middle school, he experienced dark times but developed resilience, coping skills, and deep empathy. He is emotionally healthy and seeks help when needed.
• The boys have learned from their challenges, and their strengths were described as “incredible superpowers” by Dr. Swick.
  Timestamp: 04:16–05:52

Navigating Young Adulthood: Letting Go vs. Stepping In

• The father describes the challenge of the “gray area” as his sons are no longer children but aren’t fully adults:
  • “Trying to parent in this large gray area has been really hard for me…when to pull back and let them make their own decisions or when to step in.” (06:10)
• Examples given include managing appointments (therapy, dentist), with the father struggling to let natural consequences (like incurring fees for missed appointments) teach lessons rather than micromanaging.
  • Now he has them pay back missed-appointment fees: “I make them pay me back…It’s a consequence in real time.” (08:02)
• Dr. Swick reflects on how parents shift from “management to consulting”:
  • “You’ve gone from management to consulting…Now they may depend on you for some financial resources, but you kind of wait for them to come to you…It’s just a time of growing worry.” (10:06)
    Timestamp: 06:10–10:06

Parenting Sons: Emotional Openness & Mental Health

• Discussion on societal expectations for boys to suppress emotions:
  • Dr. Swick notes: “Sometimes boys have a harder time coming with a problem that may be about self doubt or feelings…they may not have that common language of chatting about it with their friends.” (14:15)
• Father's sons are more emotionally open than some peers, partly due to their experiences with anxiety and therapy.
• Older son: Severe anxiety, particularly before new semesters, obsessively researching professors and seeking reassurance:
  • "He'll spend hours going on ratemyprofessor.com…He’ll read to me all the comments about a teacher that he has, but it’s for an hour and the next day it’s the same comments.” (15:17)
  • The boy eventually agreed to therapy after a long period of resistance, but the father had to set up and initiate everything.
• Parenting response: The father struggles between providing reassurance and feeling frustrated with repeated anxious behaviors.
  • “Sometimes I get angry, sometimes I get frustrated…sometimes I said, ‘Hey, stop. Knock it off.’ And then I know I acted out of impulse and anger, and that was wrong. And I go back and apologize.” (20:03)
    Timestamp: 14:15–21:29

The Cost of Caring: Parental Anxiety, Guilt, and Growth

• The father shares the emotional toll of supporting a child with special needs and feeling overwhelmed:
  • “There’s times when… I would just lock myself in my room and cry…tears of what’s his life going to be like, what’s going to happen at school tomorrow…this sound is really annoying me… I’m embarrassed to say that, but you know, it’s really human.” (20:58)
• Dr. Swick reassures: “As parents, I sometimes say that it’s like getting a PhD in anxiety—you care so much about them…”
• The importance of letting kids struggle safely:
  • “You have to watch them fall and fail and struggle and suffer…and that’s so hard to do.” (23:14)

Timestamp: 20:58–23:14

Coparent Relationship and Family Identity

• The twin boys' parents were never married and split up before their birth. The boys primarily live with their dad; their mother has “her own demons” and other children, but relations are civil. The father values presenting a unified front:
  • "It was important to me…we’re still your parents and we’re a unified front, so there’s no splitting, no manipulating.” (24:27)
• A memorable text from the boys’ mother:
  • “Every day I thank God that you raised the boys instead of me.” (25:14)
• Dr. Swick affirms the father's achievements, emphasizing the unique challenges of raising twins. Timestamp: 23:22–27:35

Health Crisis: Modeling Vulnerability

• The father recounts a major health scare (heart failure requiring surgery):
  • His family shielded the boys from the immediacy and severity of the situation until a follow-up appointment where a surgeon remarked, “He almost died, right?”—the first time one son realized the full gravity.
  • The father struggles with whether to share his health issues or anxiety with his sons, “I don’t want them to worry. You know, it’s like, ‘Hey, you have the world on your shoulders. You don’t need…’” (31:07)
• Lessons in vulnerability: The father shares how he once explained his fear of driving (possibly related to medical issues) to his sons to cancel a trip:
  • "Their response was, 'Whatever. We don’t go. Don’t worry about it. It’s fine.' Of course I started crying…I try to always be Superman, but guess what? I do have my kryptonite.” (35:27)
  • Dr. Swick: “It actually takes enormous bravery to…tell people you love something true about yourself…and your boys are lucky to have a dad who can model that.” (36:39)
    Timestamp: 29:25–39:46

Role Modeling & Building Support Networks

• Dr. Swick encourages the father to make space for his own support, observing both how he cares for his parents and how sons may soon want to care for him.
• Importance of open communication:
  • “If there’s anything going on with my health, I’m going to let you know… If you ever see something or you’re worried about me, ask me. And I promise that if I need something from you, I’ll let you know. Right? It’s a two-way street.” (42:57)
• The journey continues as the family transitions, with the boys approaching true independence and the father acknowledging he needs and deserves care and support, too.
  Timestamp: 40:27–44:39

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On parenting adult sons:
  • “Trying to parent in this large gray area has been really hard for me, and it’s, you know, when to pull back and let them make their own decisions or when to step in.” — Father (06:10)
• On letting natural consequences teach:
  • “I make them pay me back…It’s a consequence in real time. And I remember when I was their age making money, if I had to give up a hundred bucks, I would have lost it.” — Father (08:02)
• On male emotional openness:
  • “Sometimes boys have a harder time coming with a problem that may be about self doubt or about feelings…it can be harder because they may not have sort of that common language.” — Dr. Swick (14:15)
• On anxiety in ambitious kids:
  • “For ambitious kids, anxiety is their constant companion. They’re always evaluating: how am I doing? Am I gonna be good enough?” — Dr. Swick (15:31)
• Parenting through imperfection:
  • “I try to always be Superman, but guess what? I do have my kryptonite.” — Father (35:27)
• On family mutual care:
  • “This close family…We make the good stuff better, and we make the tough stuff bearable, and we can meet tough moments together.” — Dr. Swick (31:55)
• Modeling asking for help:
  • “Strength is sometimes doing things that have to be done, even when they're uncomfortable. And strength is also knowing when and who to ask for an assist when you need it.” — Dr. Swick (36:39)
• Transition to adulthood:
  • “18 as adult is an illusion. It’s just the law. It’s not real…they’re not really fully adult until their mid-20s. They’re still renovating, they’re still doing lots of work. But they are becoming men.” — Dr. Swick (41:37)
• Acknowledgment & closure:
  • “I do so much talking and I do so much, but I feel listened to today, and that means a lot.” — Father (44:58)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Family background and sons’ strengths: 01:34–05:52
• Parenting through transition (the “gray area”): 06:10–10:06
• Gender, emotion, and mental health: 14:15–21:29
• Single parenthood and coparenting: 23:22–27:35
• Father’s health crisis and modeling vulnerability: 29:25–39:46
• Role modeling support, self-care and communication: 40:27–44:39

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Takeaways

• Parenting adult children requires a shift from control to guidance—parents become “consultants” rather than managers.
• Emotional intelligence and asking for help are learned through both adversity and parental modeling.
• Vulnerability as a parent—showing imperfections and struggles—is a powerful teaching tool for sons learning to become emotionally responsible men.
• Open communication within the family, including about health and mental health, deepens trust and connection.
• Recognition of the need for parents themselves to find support, and model mutual care, is crucial to healthy family dynamics.

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Tone & Language: Candid, compassionate, insightful—balancing vulnerability and strength, as modeled by both Dr. Swick and her guest. The episode offers both practical reflections and heartfelt moments, making it resonate for any parent navigating the transition from raising boys to raising men.

Transcript

[A]

Lemonade.

[B]

I would say the hardest thing I'm struggling with right now, and I've had this conversation with friends, people I work with, is that it's. They're at a really transitional age, you know, that they're not kids anymore. Trying to parent in this large gray area has been really hard for me. Foreign.

[A]

I'm Dr. Susan Swick, and this is talk about able. Today I'm talking to a single father of two adult sons, Twin Sons. They're 21 years old, and they are right in that in between spot, between youth and full adulthood. It's a gray area, and it's giving this father some worry. He has his sons under his wing and under his roof in their home in California, but there are still parts of their lives that he worries they aren't quite getting right, and he isn't helping them to get right. So this is a conversation about figuring out when to step back and when to step in. It's particularly a conversation about dads and sons and things from our past that we sometimes bring into thinking about our children's futures. I do like to ask first, who lives at home with you?

[B]

So it's me and my sons and my parents live with us.

[A]

Ah, wow. It's a full house.

[B]

It is.

[A]

And tell me, your sons. Spoiler alert. They're twins, but, yes, identical twins. And how old are they?

[B]

So they are 21. And they'll argue to the ends of the earth about who's older. So I, you know, I kind of defer to the. I do have an older twin, a younger twin. One was born 30 seconds sooner.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

So he likes to say he's the big brother, but the other brother will say, yeah, but I was breathing first. You weren't breathing when you were born, so.

[A]

Ah. Oh, I see. Everything is a little bit of a competition.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, 100%. Ever since they came out of the womb.

[A]

Okay. And your parents, are they in good health? How are they mobile? Just to have a sense of what it's like at home.

[B]

Not the best health. My father, he had a kidney transplant. He can be very stubborn when he's sick. We can see it coming. He doesn't. He said, I'm fine. I don't have any issues. I'm healthy. And then the next day, he has a fever and he's falling up and down and he has sepsis.

[A]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

You know, and with my mom, she just retired. She's 76, and she's had some struggles with medication regarding her back. She's trying to Find her way in the world right now is, you know, working since she was 14 and now it ends.

[A]

Wow. Okay. And your boys are 21, 21.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Are they in school or working?

[B]

So they are both enrolled at the local community college and they both work part time at a restaurant. One's a host, one does to go order. So they even work together, they go to school together, they live together.

[A]

Whoa, whoa. Okay. If you could describe their special gifts, their superpowers elaborate on them. When you think about what their special gift that they're bringing into the world is, what comes to mind.

[B]

I'm going to start with my older son. His loyalty to his friends. His ability to, you know, associate with people who are kind, goal oriented. He makes great choices. He's dedicated to his education. He's dedicated to looking into the future and making sure that he's set career wise. And he's determined and he'll make the sacrifices now for the successes later. And that's something I don't think I did at his age.

[A]

Okay, and how about his little brother?

[B]

So his little brother, they're gonna be.

[A]

Mad at me if they know I said that. Yeah.

[B]

You know, he was born with a neurological disorder. He had diagnosed with Tourette syndrome in middle school. So he has had a really tough life. You know, he made comments in the past about how he has the only. He would call it a disease that people hate me for. And middle school was so hard for him and he sometimes he wouldn't leave his room, you know, he wouldn't go anywhere. He, at that time, he started therapy. He had an amazing, amazing therapist who just moved mountains to make sure he was provided the support necessary. When he started getting into high school, you kind of started to see a lot of these, you know, symptoms just disappear and kind of fade away. And now if you met him, you wouldn't even know. No. No medication needed. But I think he went through some of the darkest times in his life. So he has developed amazing coping skills. He is very emotionally healthy. If he needs help, he's not afraid to ask for it. And he has empathy like I've never seen on anyone before. And he can really put himself in other people's shoes and understand what they're going through is difficult. And, you know, he's kind and he has a big heart and he'll help anyone. He'll give people the shirt off his back. He doesn't care.

[A]

Those are incredible superpowers. It sounds like they both have gifts and skills. They both absolutely earned. Earned their superpowers so what is there. Is there something right now that gives you particular heartburn or worry about the boys?

[B]

You know, I would say the hardest thing I'm struggling with right now, and I've had this conversation with friends, people I work with, is that it's. They're at a really transitional age, you know, that they're not kids anymore. Trying to parent in this large gray area has been really hard for me, and it's, you know, when to pull back and let them make their own decisions or when to step in. Because, hey, you can miss your dentist appointment. You're going to be charged $100 if you miss your appointment. You know, and. And it's hard, and sometimes I just don't want to relinquish control, and I know that's wrong.

[A]

Are you thinking of a particular story besides the dentist?

[B]

Oh, no. I would say it's appointments. I think that's such a huge thing that both of them knew enough to ask for help. And so they have therapists now. And, you know, but they're different therapists, different organizations, different times. Sometimes it's on zoom, sometimes it's in person, and they miss appointments. I forgot, dad. Oh, my God. I forgot. I didn't know this. I didn't know that. Or I slept in and I get frustrated. I said, are you kidding me? Like, you have one appointment this week. How do you forget the one appointment you have? You know? And so, you know, when I help them set up their accounts for these therapy sessions, and then. So I'll get the notifications, and I'm texting in the morning, hey, you have therapy in one hour.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Don't miss it. Hey, you have therapy in 10 minutes. Are you awake? They don't text me back. I'm calling them, hey, are you awake? And I'm at work, putting my work aside while I follow up.

[A]

Right. You know, do they have any natural consequences? Like, does it come out of their earnings? How does that go?

[B]

I will say in the past, I would have just absorbed it all, which I know was wrong. But now, since it's my, like, my year Flex benefit FSA card that's on file for both places, I make them pay me back. So I send them the email saying, this is what I was charged, so you can go ahead and venmo me or sell me the money. And I think that's. It's a consequence in real time. And I remember when I was their age making money, if I had to give up a hundred bucks, I would have lost it.

[A]

No that's right. That's a great natural consequence. And I love your observation that this is a really tough transition, because it is, I would agree, like the early 20s, I think, is a real transition. It doesn't get recognized as much sort of in the world or in the community. Everyone's like, oh, they're going to be ready to launch. Good job. What are you going to start doing with all your time or with those bedrooms or whatever it is. And it's actually, I think, one of the most treacherous transitions for parents. It was for me with my kids. I have two that are already there and two that are fast approaching it because they, as you said, they are not kids, but they're not fully adult yet. They are legally adults. They are functioning in the world independently and they are really building out a lot of adult skills by practicing them.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And they practice them without a net, meaning you're not there with them. Right. You get to know about the net that you have provided. So if your insurance card is activated when they miss an appointment and you find out about it, you're a bit of a net. But you also, this is a natural stage to be really worried about them. Like, how are they going to get home safe when they're out with their friends.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And even when they live at home and you have more opportunities to connect with them, them, you know, you've gone from management to consulting. Right. You used to be in charge of all the rules, the funding, the quarterly reports, all of that came from you. And now they may depend on you for some financial resources, but you kind of wait for them to come to you. Right, Right. With a question, either looking for guidance, looking for help. And so it's just a time of growing worry. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll hear more of this father's story. It's November, which nowadays means holiday shopping is already in full swing. I mean, we all saw Christmas decorations were on shelves in September. Right. Fortunately, Uncommon Goods takes the stress out of gifting. With thousands of unique, high quality finds you won't see anywhere else. Uncommon Goods has something for everyone. From book lovers to die hard football fans, mixologists, to history buffs, everyone can delight in a gift from Uncommon Goods. Plus, when you shop at Uncommon Goods, you're supporting artists and small independent businesses. I'm a little obsessed with the Junior Chain Reaction Construction set. It's a kit of wooden and metal pieces for kids to use to make their own contraption. Rube Goldberg like. And it looks like Endless fun for experimenting and creativity. So don't wait. Cross those names off your list before the rush. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com talkaboutable that's uncommongoods.com Talkaboutable for 15% off Uncommon Goods were all out of the ordinary. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. As our kids get older, a lot of parts of parenting change, some actually get easier. One of my favorite changes has been getting to have more complex conversations with my kids. What's yours? Some things might feel like they never get easier though, like teaching your kids about money. Fortunately, that's where Greenlight comes in. Greenlight is a debit card and money app made for families. Parents can send money to their kids and keep an eye on their spending and saving. All kids and teens grow confident and build lifelong financial literacy skills. Games teach money skills in a fun, accessible way so kids can learn how to save, invest and spend wisely. And there are app features like a chore calendar, so kids might also work on goal setting and completion and get to see the rewards. That kind of consistency is so powerful for reinforcing the connection between effort and outcome. I wish I had Greenlight around when I was raising my children. Greenlight is the easy, convenient way for parents to raise financially smart kids and families to navigate life together. Maybe that's why millions of parents trust and kids love learning about money on Greenlight, the number one family finance and safety app. Don't wait to teach your kids real world money skills. Start your risk free Greenlight trial [e-mail] talkaboutable that's greenlight.com talkaboutable to get started greenlight.com talkaboutable not to paint with too broad a brush, but sometimes boys have a harder time coming with a problem that may be about self doubt or about feelings. It can be harder because they may not have sort of that common language of chatting about with their friends.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Is that, is that the case with your boys or does it feel like they have some of that language?

[B]

So I think they do have some of that language. I don't think all their friends do. You know, I think they've been through some tough times in their life. They both have had anxiety and stress and you know, and it like for my older son, it manifests in different ways. Yeah, his anxiety got, it got really bad lately where it was almost a point where we're shutting him down. So. But I don't know if that, I don't even know if I answered your question, right?

[A]

No, you did. And actually it's, you know, I, I would imagine that is part of what would keep you up at night, if, if right now. Because for your older son, who's so ambitious, right. As you describe him, that he's hardworking, he's determined, he's ambitious. But often for ambitious kids, anxiety is their constant companion. They're always evaluating. How am I doing? Am I gonna be good enough? Am I gonna be able to get there?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And it can be so hard as a parent, cause you wanna be a cheerleader. But it has to feel real, it has to feel substantial. After a point, your kids are like, ye, you think I'm going to get there?

[B]

Your dad, of course you have to say that, dad.

[A]

Exactly, exactly.

[B]

I, you know, anxiety, I think is a big thing I worry about with my older son. Just to kind of give you a quick glimpse on how it manifests before the start of any new semester, any new school year, like the month before. It's just his stress goes into overdrive. He'll spend hours and hours, hours going on ratemyprofessor.com thinking, did he get the right professor? I mean, he'll come in my room and he'll read to me all the comments about a teacher that he has, but it's for an hour and the next day it's the same comments he'll read over and over again, looking for validation, like, did I make the right decision, Dad? I need you to tell me yes. You know, son, that sounds like you made a great decision. I know, but listen to these comments, you know, and so, and then it even goes as far as he wants to control his brother's, you know, choices. He said, no, you can't. That, don't do that, teacher. Look at these comments. And his brother's like, can you let me live my own educational experience? And then even the younger brothers made comments that even around their friends, that's all he'll talk about. Hey, guys. What? You know, are you enrolling for classes? When have you enrolled? You got to do it now. You have to do it by this time. It's very important you do that. And you know, and it's non stop. And he says he gets into this mood where he doesn't want to leave the house. He's, he just, I can't deal with anything. He goes to work, but he's just not in a mood. And so that's when, you know, I've always been a proponent of mental health.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and everyone should have a therapist. And, you know, and I brought that up to him in the past and he never, ever wanted to do it. He said, I don't want to talk to someone doesn't know me. That sounds stupid. That sounds whack. And finally, within, when this anxiety spiral started, he. He reached out and said, you know what? I think I'm ready.

[A]

Yeah. When was that? Was that at the start of the school year or a little?

[B]

I would say it was about three months ago.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, three months ago. But I'm the one that went out and searched for it. I'm the one that made the calls. I'm the one that did it. Because in my mind I'm like, well, if he doesn't, then it's not going to happen and he needs it. Right.

[A]

It sounds like partly handed off and partly sort of, you're holding it alongside him. You are his net. You are his net. Not in a critical way, but that you're trying to let him. If he drops and falls into the net, you know, he's not just going without and never going back to therapy.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Will he come to you and tell you, or do you have to pick up on it that things are a little worse?

[B]

I think he will. I think he usually comes to me. He also wears it on his sleeve, you know, when something's bothering him. I say, hey, buddy, you okay? I'm good. Okay. All right. Okay. Actually, dad, so he, I, you know, I think he's comfortable coming to me and I always wanted to make sure that, you know, this is a safe space, you know, to come talk to me so I can help navigate, you know, what we're going to do next or what you're going to do next, and trying to get them to problem solve some of their own dilemmas.

[A]

Do you think, you know, with anxiety, it is very powerful as a parent to want to kind of solve the problem. Maybe not for, but very actively with it sounds like, like you going shopping for a good therapist for him, which may have just been practical and supportive, but also he may come to you for a lot of reassurance. He does, yeah. How do you handle that? Because sometimes it feels like you give reassurance, but when a child or an adult friend or child of yours has a lot of anxiety driving their checking in, the reassurance doesn't help them kind of get off the merry go round of worry. They stay on it. They just may need more. Has that is. Has that happened?

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, I don't probably haven't told anybody this, but sometimes I get angry, sometimes I get frustrated. And, you know, sometimes I get like, just stop. Like, stop. You gotta stop. And I'm sure a couple times I said, hey, stop. Knock it off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and shut him down. And then I know I acted out of impulse and anger, and that was wrong. And I go back and apologize, you know, that was wrong of me, the way I reacted and just kind of let them know where I was coming from. So, yeah, there's been. Even when my son struggled with his neurological disorder, I mean, I would just lock myself in my room and cry because I. And I would. And I could hear him making auditory sounds. It was dev.

[A]

Ah. It was devastating. Can I ask you were the tears tears of frustration or tears of worry that you couldn't help him, you couldn't fix what he was going through?

[B]

You know, it was tears of what's his life going to be like? It's tears of what's going to happen at school tomorrow. It's tears of this sound is really annoying me. And.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm embarrassed to say that, but, you know, it's really human.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that's my boy. That's. You know. Yeah. It was tears. It was tears for different reasons.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's. You know, as parents, we have. It's. I sometimes say that it's like getting a PhD in anxiety.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Because it's. You care so much about them and they're out in the world even when they're young and in ways that you can't. You can't. You couldn't helicopter or snowplow or whatever the new parenting term is. Enough to. To rest assured that they're going to be happy and they're going to be okay.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's. It. It's so hard, especially as a single parent, because in those moments, we often need, like, our co pilot, whoever that is, to sort of, like, help us just hold that. The fact that we don't get to read ahead to the next chapter that we. We just. We just get to be in it with them. And we. We want to protect them from anything irreversible happening, anything truly dangerous. And we want to be there with them, to help them learn the right lessons when the consequences of choices they make aren't so great and help them pick themselves up. Because we actually. We learn how to manage difficulty by facing it. And it helps if it's smaller at first.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And that we have good cheerleaders and coaches and all those things on the team. But you still have to watch them fall. You have to watch them fall and fail and struggle and. And. And suffer and.

[B]

And that's so hard to do.

[A]

It's brutal. It's brutal. You're divorced from their mom, is that right?

[B]

So we've never been married. We were actually. We split up before they were born, and I've. Ever. Since they were about three or four, they've primarily lived with me, so, you know, my home is home. You know, they're. You know, I've never. They've never. I mean, they would stay with mom, but, you know, I'm the primary parent. But we. We communicate, their mom and I, you know, I try to help her whenever I can.

[A]

So does she. Does she need your assistance sometimes? Yeah.

[B]

She has her own personal struggles and demons, so. And I try when I can, but it's a fine line because. Trying to help their mom versus protecting my sons.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I'm always gonna protect them first if they see something or hear something or witness something. My job is to. My priorities. Them, not her.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Yes. Do they. Do they have a sort of open, connected relationship with her, or is it more limited?

[B]

It's, you know, they. They don't see her that often, but they do make. You know, they make attempts to try to plan stuff together. You know, like last year, one of them said, hey, we should do Easter together. And I'm like, abs, of course. Absolutely. You know, because it was important to me that, you know, your parents aren't together, but we're still your parents, and we're a unified front, and so there's no splitting, there's no manipulating. If something happens at school, I'll call her and tell her, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

Wow. So you've been a single dad since your twin sons were three years old.

[B]

Probably three or four. Yeah.

[A]

You've done an incredible job. You are a single dad of two boys starting at the age of three, whose mom sounds like you have a civil relationship with. But. But. But she could not, and maybe you can correct me here, but that she was managing her own demons, as you.

[B]

Say, and she has. She has three other kids. Yeah. So, you know, and I would say one of the. I'll never forget, I have this text in my phone. I saved it. She. My kid's mother sent this to me years ago and said every day I. I thank God that you raised the boys instead of me. Oh, I know that took a lot for her to say, because she's a very proud woman. We're Both raised drastically differently. So. And she's think she has more of this tough exterior skin than I do. And so for her to say that. I know, I mean, I'm sure that was hard for her, but I'll always treasure that text.

[A]

Yes. Yes. Well, it sounds like she's right. I was gonna say she is right that the boys are so lucky that they have you as their dad. Twin boys are a lot. That's a lot. Twin girls are a lot too. Just twins. Having two kids is more than twice the work of one kid. And having them at the exact same time. Yep. At the exact same time. Where they're at the same development stage at every step. That's like, it's like child cubed child. You know, it's not just doubled, it's like squared cubed. It's, it's algorithmically more, logarithmically more. My math is so bad. But to keep showing up. And it's clear the way you describe them as young men that you have been able to provide them with both order and with support with those sort of critical things, rules and routines, as well as love, compassion, caring and joy.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

We will be right back after this break.

[B]

Foreign.

[C]

Hi everybody, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus from the Wiser Than Me podcast. And I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill. It could be enriching our soil or feeding our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly, way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. But it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true. I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and it's fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and it's engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you have to kind of live with mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive Offer.

[B]

So I, I had a health scare in 2022. And, and how I understand it is that my parents, sister, they made a choice not to share everything at that moment. The gravity of the situation.

[A]

It was serious. You were. It was not just a health scare.

[B]

It was a. Yeah, it was heart failure. Yeah.

[A]

Oh my goodness. Yeah.

[B]

So. And I now I have a really nice foot long scar on my chest. But. And so they knew I had to have surgery, but they didn't know that. It was like, we don't know if he's gonna make it, but we're gonna just do our best and try. And it wasn't until later when actually it's a quick story. I went to my follow up with my surgeon and it's me, my sister and my younger son. And then he's, he's talking, you know, saying, God, you look great, your numbers are excellent. This is, you know, he looks over my son, he said, huh, did I do a good job with your dad? Look, he almost died, right? And then I think that's the first time my son heard that. He looked at me. And then we're like, oh, yeah, you know. And then after we left, my son said, did you really almost die? I'm all, well, you know, it was close, but you know, and of course I immediately tried to sugarcoat it. I'm like, yeah, they said that, but you know, look it, I'm here. But I know he'll never forget that because the look on his face was something I've never seen before.

[A]

Yeah, he clocked it. He's. He KNEW he was 18. He was 18 or 17.

[B]

Yeah, there were still, there's juniors in high school, so.

[A]

17. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do they talk to you about worrying about you?

[B]

No, they don't. And I, I guess sometimes I don't tell them a lot because I don't want them to worry because I know, not that I have anything to worry about right now, but, you know, I want, you know, it's like, hey, you have the world on your shoulders. You don't need. I'm not gonna, I don't want to add to that, but is that the right thing or I, you know, that's, you know, something I struggle with or my own anxiety and, you know, you know, do I tell them? Do I not? But you know, they know more now than they did before, and I think it was for the best and they responded very favorably and supportive.

[A]

So, yeah, I imagine if there's something that could affect them, certainly something that they could see, they probably do Want to hear about it from you.

[B]

Yeah. No, you're right. You're right.

[A]

Same as. And they see you taking care probably of your mom and dad a lot. In a way. You're not asking them to take care of you, but you're modeling for them that when something serious is going on, you tell the people you're closest to the truth about it. Right. We can handle the truth that this. This close family makes. We make the good stuff better, and we make the tough stuff bearable, and we can meet tough moments together.

[B]

But I think that was always hard for me, you know, being to a point where I could say, you know, here's the stuff that's going on with me. Because I don't want them to look at me like, oh, my God, now what if something happens to him? And I don't want them to worry, you know? You know, because I've had anxiety for years and years and years, but mine manifested itself with driving. I became. I was terrified to drive in. City was fine, I was fine. But if I went on the highway, like, overpasses stuff, I felt like my rapid breathing, my palms got sweaty, I felt dizzy. And so, like, if I wanted to go to Monterey, I would, you know, maybe just take 68 and try to take off road so I could avoid the highway, even though it might take an extra half hour. But they were younger, so they didn't really. They weren't paying attention. They're like, oh, whatever.

[A]

Yeah. Was. It was. Did something frightening happen at some time in the past or do you anticipate? Are you.

[B]

Nothing that I know of.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

So. And my doctor actually. Because, you know, it'll happen rarely, but then it just goes away.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But my doctor also said, too, that it could have been related to my heart.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not pumping blood in stressful situations because it couldn't, you know, I had a valve that was ripping off. And so, you know, when I stress out, your heart beats faster, but there's no blood coming out of it like it should. So. But yeah, it was, you know, this winter of 2021, we had tickets to go see a concert concert in San Francisco. And we were, I mean, so excited, but I know I couldn't drive. And so I said, hey, you know, we can't go. And then at that moment, I told them why. And I was so scared to tell them.

[A]

How'd you tell them?

[B]

Okay, so, you know, I even talked to my sister. She knew this conversation was coming. She came over just to hang out for dinner and be present because I was really struggling with this. You know, how are they going to take it?

[A]

How?

[B]

You know, what, Are they going to be mad? Are they going to be embarrassed? Like, are you kidding me?

[A]

Which.

[B]

And I know they wouldn't do that, but, you know, it's. It's always in the back of your mind. And so I remember sitting down telling him about the concert. Say, guys, you know, I don't think we can go because I have this fear of driving right now. And I explained to him the feelings I get, and I, you know, and I'm. Their response was then, whatever. We don't go. Don't worry about it. It's fine. And, oh, of course I started crying. I'm an emotional guy, so I start crying. They're like, dad, it's not a big deal. We'll go to a dis. Who cares? I'm. Oh, God, I love you. I'm so lucky to have you. And.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Snot coming out of my nose and. But, you know, that was the one time that I felt like that was hard for me to do, like, hey, your dad's human. You know, like, I try to always be Superman, but guess what? I do have my kryptonite. And there's things that hurt me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. That's the release of getting to. Of summoning the courage to tell them the truth and having it be not a huge deal for them. Yeah, sounds so.

[B]

But it was hard for me.

[A]

Oh, of course, of course. I just mean. I mean, I'm picturing the waterworks and the snot because that's what happens when you're really charged up and you're so worried that you're going to dash their hopes or their excitement for this concert, and you're shining a light on the fact that their Superman dad is not always Superman, and to realize that. But it didn't make a difference because.

[B]

I would encourage them to do the same thing if they're struggling to talk to me. Talk to someone.

[A]

I mean, it actually it takes enormous bravery to sort of get grounded and tell people you love something true about yourself. And your boys are. Are lucky to have a dad who can model. Who can model that. Who can model. You know, strength takes many forms. Strength is raising your twin boys alone and not. And, you know, not complaining about it every day. And strength is sometimes doing things that have to be done, even when they're uncomfortable. And strength is also knowing when and who to ask for an assist when you need it. It's not just being able to bench, you know, 500 pounds or it's knowing when you need someone to spot you. And your boys are so lucky. You didn't just tell them to make good choices. You, you show them, right? And you get to say, and it's really good. Like you should have a. You deserve to have a long list of people that you can turn to for different kinds of concerns or problems. That when you want an assist of different kinds, that you know who you can trust, right? And you say, I'm always, I'm always on that list for you. I won't be hurt if you start with a therapist or you start with your aunt or an uncle or a best friend's parent or with your brother.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But highlighting, even being curious, be like, are there other people on your list besides therapist, besides people living in this house and finding out who they are and getting to say, I'm so glad you have that many people. And even being able to, to remind him, you know, say, remember that you could tell him about the time when you guys had to give up the concert that was too long a drive away and be like, remember that? Do you remember that? And how emotional I got after? And you say, that was really hard for me. And I really felt like I was letting you down, both because of the concert and because I wasn't. I wasn't who I wanted you to think I was. I wasn't Superman. I wasn't like, I wasn't perfect, perfectly fortified that this thing that also you'd be like, maybe it didn't even make sense to me. Why am I so worried about this? I'm a good driver, right? Being able to actually just use that as an intro. It's a wonderful example and one that he'll probably viscerally remember, you know, I'll.

[B]

Always remember it for sure.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You hold yourself to a very high standard, it sounds like, of showing up for the people that depend on you and yet recognizing that when you can also illuminate for your boys that sometimes, sometimes fixing it means leaning on others a little bit, biding your time. Some things we can't fix, we can't fix or we can't fix them right away. Who do you get your support from? Does it come. Who fixes things for you?

[B]

I don't know if I have, I don't think, I mean, like I said, I have my therapist who I've been seeing for a couple years, which I really like him, he's great. But outside of that, I mean, I don't know, no one's ever asked me that, yeah.

[A]

I'm thinking about how you take such good care of your dad and your mom and how your boys will someday want to take good care of you. Not to get ahead of our skis, but being able to model that connection means sometimes asking for help out loud. Sounds like your dad doesn't like to ask for help out loud. And then all of a sudden he's septic and you're like, oh, gosh.

[B]

And then he doesn't ask for help. At that moment we know.

[A]

No, but in fact, it gives you more work to do.

[B]

It'd be easier if he asks for help, you know. And I said, you know, you not being honest about what you're feeling, you avoiding going to the doctor makes it worse because then you have to go to the hospital, which you hate. And we hate having you go to the hospital.

[A]

That's right. That's right. Well, and you maybe your boys right now are 21, so they are 18 as adult is an illusion. It's just the law. It's not real. Like they're not really fully adult until they're in their mid-20s. They're still renovating, they're still doing lots of work. But they are becoming men. They are young men. And being able, you know, at some point, maybe when it comes up, if they ever show a little worry about you being able to say, hey, look, if there's anything going on with my health, I'm going to let you know. I bet if I was a betting woman, I'd put a little money on the idea that they might worry a little bit about your health, given. I agree. Health scare.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And that they probably talk about it with each other and being able to say, guys, if you ever see something or you're worried about me, ask me. And I'm working on being, being straight up and telling you the truth. And, and I promise that if I need something from you, I'll let you know. Right.

[B]

It's a two way street. Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. Getting to start that although they're not worried about it now, but they still depend on you. You are one person. And for you to also, for you to also make space for having what you deserve in your adult relationships that you can be really, you can enjoy the connection back from them. They're, they're young adults, so they're not gonna, they're not gonna fully take care of you right now, but you get to model that like adult relationships involve give and take because I bet, I bet they, they worry about you.

[B]

Yeah, they probably do. They, they're, they don't tell me. But like you said, maybe they talk to each other more. Maybe it's something they share with their therapist.

[A]

Well, and they may even worry about you, where they think, well, what's going to happen when we do move out? And he's just taking care of grandma?

[B]

And that's a whole other podcast.

[A]

But you deserve to have a rich and full life without, without the boys living at home where you, you know, you've. You've taken beautiful, beautiful care of two amazing young men. They're almost ready to launch. And making sure that there's space in your life for you to get taken care of a little bit, too. Not out of your comfort zone, but just in the way we would deserve in our relationships, whether it's friendships and beyond. But I bet your boys care about that, too.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure they do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure they do. That means a lot to me, what you're saying. So thank you.

[A]

Well, that's true. And I appreciate you sharing it, being generous with me and with anyone who might be listening to connect over the airwaves with what you've experienced and what you've learned.

[B]

Thank you for talking to me. Thank you for. Yeah, just thank you for listening. It feels, you know, I, I do so much talking and I do so much, but I feel listened to today, and that means a lot. Thank you.

[A]

If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now is the perfect time. You can listen to Talk about Able completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive content like a special meditation from me that'll help you find peace through some of your biggest parenting challenges. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. Talk about able is produced by Lemonada Media in partnership with the Ohana center for Child and Family Mental Health at Montaj Health and made possible through funding from the Montaj Health Foundation. Together, we are committed to helping families talk about the issues that children, teens and young adults are facing today. We believe that when these conversations happen at home, even the most challenging subjects, children build the skills they need to flourish. Because when families are connected, the hard moments become more bearable, the good moments become even better, and it all becomes Talk About Able. This show is produced by Aria Bracci. Mixing and sound design by Brian Castilla. Kristin Lepore is senior director of new content and Jackie Danziger is vice president of narrative and production. Maggie Crowshaw is our managing director of partnerships. Executive producers include myself, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles. Wax and a very special thanks to Kelsey Talley and Maya Smith. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Thanks. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you next week.