Dr. Susan Swick (3:00)

Oh, yeah, that's great. He sounds like such an amazing kid and what a wonderful description of him and all his colors. So I also learned that you have been through a very difficult few years.

Single Mom (3:16)

Yeah.

Dr. Susan Swick (3:17)

You had an array of really serious challenges come all at once. When your son was three years old, you and your husband separated. And then soon after, your mom, who had been managing cancer, passed away. And then you yourself were diagnosed with lymphoma. You have really been through it.

Single Mom (3:41)

Yeah. We separated less than a year after we'd moved from California to New York City. So it was just. Everything changed. And in the moment, it was so hard, especially when I was going through my chemo. And at that point, my son was with me five or six nights a week. He was almost always with me. And I was coming home with a. I had a metaport. I was coming home with the bag of chemo, running while I was doing my day to day and working full time and all this. So in the moment, it was awful.

Dr. Susan Swick (4:14)

Oh, that sounds so hard. It sounds like you were really swimming in the deep end of the pool of difficulty hard on you and so hard on a small child. And then to take care of a small child, just triply hard. So of all the things that you've been through, what are you most worried about when it comes to your son now? What's the current challenge you'd like to talk about?

Single Mom (4:43)

He has a very insecure attachment with me, and I feel terrible about that. I thought before I got sick, before all of this happened, I knew it was a completely different developmental period for him that he was always very secure. There will be things like he'll be like, recently we were at the park and he was having a really rough day and he was so angry with me. Just everything was like, I don't want to play. I don't want you to be around me. You're the worst mommy in the world. He'll say, like, horrible things to me. Like, he said to me once, I wish you were dead. All these things that are just like, awful. And so I'll try to reason with him. Sometimes I'll be stern, sometimes I'll be kind. Sometimes I'll use positive reinforcement, I'll use negative reinforcement. It's like, I've tried a lot of things over the We've been struggling with this for quite some time. And. And then sometimes I'll say, like, in this instance, I was like, listen, nothing was working. He was just throwing this crazy tantrum. And so I said, look, I gotta. I'm gonna take a little walk. Like, I'm just gonna give you some space. I'm gonna give you a break. And then I'm gonna come back. And then when I'll say that, he'll, no, no, no, don't leave. And he'll desperately cling to me like, please, please, please, Mommy, no, don't leave. And it's like we see this sort of same pattern over and over again that he'll. And I think it's. You know, he'll push me away, push me away to see if I'll stay. And then, you know, he gets desperate for me to stay, and it's like. And I feel terrible because I really do think it's a direct result of him having seen me be sick and also having seen my mother be sick. And, you know, our cancer, the type of cancer we had was very different, but the treatment looked the same. Like, you saw us both go through chemo. I actually, I look very much like my mother. We both lost our hair. We had a lot. Like, we looked the same. And so he saw that happen to my mother and knows that she's no longer with us. And then he saw that happen to me. And I think there's this terrifying, lingering fear, even though we've read all the books and done all the play therapy and all the occupational therapy and all the things of, I'm healthy now. And, you know, even sometimes I'll cough just because I'm clearing my throat. And he'll say, are you gonna die? Don't cough on me. You're gonna get me sick. Like, he'll say, he still seems to think that I am sick, even with all the reassurance.

Dr. Susan Swick (7:17)

Well, and it does sound like you might now be at a phase where he's having big feelings and it actually does feel safe for him to show them to you. You know, he's getting to an age where he's just beginning to really understand logic and cause and effect. It's a marvelous moment, right, where kids are just beginning to get all the tools of their adult brains. But it's a tough moment because they're still emotionally so. So young and keeping him company as he reckons with the things that he worries about. And he's had quite a few events in his young life. And that's just what it is. That's just what it is. We can't protect our children from the world, but we can make families make the good stuff better and the bad stuff bearable. And he's so blessed to have your company, your quiet, attentive place and honest company. Did you use the word cancer when your mom was sick or when you got diagnosed with cancer?

Single Mom (8:37)

Definitely for me, with my mom he was still only two.

Dr. Susan Swick (8:43)

He was so little.

Single Mom (8:44)

Yeah, yeah. I guess he had just turned three when she passed. So he. We probably did just because I don't know what else we would have called it, but. And my parents were always very. My dad was in pharmaceutical research and so they were always very like we use the words like that was part of.

Dr. Susan Swick (9:06)

No euphemisms. No, that actually is great for kids being clear and direct, using the same language they might overhear directly with them is really protective. So that if they don't understand something, they'll ask you rather than come to their own conclusions. How was kindergarten for him?

Single Mom (9:28)

Kindergarten was rough. His teachers were not warm at all. And I actually worry that one of his teachers was pretty damaging to his self esteem. The school is very strange. It's a big public school and I understand they have rules, but you are not allowed to step foot in the building at all. As a parent, I didn't even know what it classroom looked like. I was allowed to drop him off on day one and then never allowed in the classroom again until graduation. So that was very strange. And when I did go in for graduation, I noticed all the students had artwork up on the walls except for my child. And I asked the teacher, where's his art? And she said, oh, he never finished in time. And so. And there were other things throughout the year that like sometimes he would cry at drop off because he is very sensitive and we do have these attachment issues that we're trying to work through. And sometimes he would cry at drop off. And the school safety officer was always really kind and understanding. But the teacher, sometimes she would come out and grab him and then later she would scold me like, you know, you're really babying him. He's manipulating you and you just need to push him in that door and leave. And I tried to explain to her, well, you know, we have real things going on here and I understand that, you know, I need to drop him off and I'm not gonna let him manipulate me into not bringing him to school. If he's upset, you know, we are going to go to school, but sometimes I'm gonna Say that it's okay for him to have an emotion that is not just angry or happy, and that happens. But she was very, very, very not. She's very old school, very not understanding of emotions. And he's very big. He's like maybe the biggest kid in his class. And so I think some teachers will see, oh, here's a very. Here's a big kid. Be a certain way. And so I think kindergarten was really challenging, and I'm really hoping that he has a kinder, warmer, more aware teacher next year.

Dr. Susan Swick (11:44)

Yeah, kindergarten is such a huge transition for kids, and it's challenging for them and for parents. I want to say, as I hear this story, first, I really want to commend you for being so aware of who your son is, all the things that are going on, and what challenges he's managing day to day. Showing up with your child is 90% of parenting, regardless of the outcome. So I just want to commend how admirable that is. I'm curious, did he make any good friends in kindergarten?

Single Mom (12:24)

I think so. He gets invited to play. And, you know, now that I've been. Now that we've been at the school for two years, I have parents that I am friendly with that will connect and go to the park or have play dates. But one of the things that breaks my heart is that sometimes when he has these breakdowns where he gets really upset, one of the first things he says is, I have no friends and everybody hates me. And I'll go through, what about so and so? What about so and so? And he'll sort of say, well, a little bit, but, no, they're not my friend. And so that's something that I, as a parent, you know, you hate to hear that because especially when it's like, we literally just came from their house. I don't know. But then I really don't know what the dynamics are like at school. So I worry about him in that way. And we also had a really horrible breakdown recently. I took him to a little local festival, which in the past he's had a lot of fun at. We go on the Ferris wheel, we do the rides. But this year it was very overwhelming and he had a huge meltdown, like, saying things again, like, I don't have any friends, I'm a loser. Like, all these horrible things.

Dr. Susan Swick (13:34)

You know, if you're a little worried that there might be something going on where he's actually being singled out and bullied and left out of group activities in a way that's genuinely making it an uphill climb for him to connect with any kids you can ask. Like make a time to meet with the teacher, not at drop off or pick up when there's lots of kids around or send them an email and just check in. Just say he's describing an experience of feeling really isolated. Is there anything they've noticed so that you have a sense of whether there's anything actually going on that might need a little more on site adult support. But usually when our kids talk about not having any friends or never going to make friends in this class, what they're telling us about is the lowest part of the feelings they're having as they try to put themselves out there and build these new skills of meeting kids, being able to bear what's uncomfortable about that with him and let him know sometimes making those great friendships takes a lot of time. What do you imagine you'll be able to eventually do with your best friends? And think about the things that would be really fun, whether it's giggling or riding bikes or doing amazing jiu jitsu moves or drawing or making up games or playing sports. But help him start to paint a picture of what he hopes to have because that will be fuel in his tank as he gets up and tries again to get to know kids. Yeah, we'll be right back after this break. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. As kids get older, some parts of parenting get easier.

Podcast Host (15:35)

One of my favorite parts has been.

Dr. Susan Swick (15:37)

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Single Mom (17:29)

Maybe something that's helpful to discuss here. I struggle with and some of this comes from me and some of this comes from living in a gossipy neighborhood. But I struggle with being judged as being a single mom and what my behavior is like. So I worry about being too stern with him publicly just because people can be really judgmental. And there's a very gossipy group of women in this neighborhood. And my ex husband, there's one other single mom in the kindergarten class and that happens to be who my ex husband is dating. And she's like a part of this very gossipy circle who you know. Yeah, it's like a, it's one of these things that you don't want to believe still exists, but it does. And so I do worry. I'm always being witnessed in a certain way on the playground. And so sometimes I feel like I don't know if I can be too stern with him. And I will also say there are many wonderful parents in this neighborhood who will be like, oh, I have been there, don't even worry about it, you know, and I have a lot of great community here. But I do worry. And I usually say, you know, I'm one of only a few single moms, but I think there will be more, you know, as we move forward in time. But right now I worry about being too stern with him publicly and how that will be viewed. So usually I'll just try to talk him down. I try to find a quiet place to sit. Like when we were at the fair, I sort of pulled him away from all of this stimulus and I found someone's quiet stoop that we could sit on and kind of tried to talk him down there. It usually does help. Or like if we're at the park, I'll try to get him to a bench or somewhere where we can sit. Sometimes because he is quite big, he can, sometimes he'll hit me in a way that actually hurts and that's difficult to deal with as well. And I think if we are at home, I can be not necessarily more stern with him, but have more sort of structure but be like, look, we know our routine Here. And this is what we're gonna do if this happens, you know, but out in public, it's difficult to navigate. So I think usually I try to find a quiet space, number one. And then that's when I can try to talk to him or let him, like in the instance we're discussing, just let him sort of download and say what he needs to say. And I think sometimes it's that he just needs to be heard.

Dr. Susan Swick (20:15)

So going to a quiet space is actually just right. It's such a smart start because that's going to help you to reestablish a little bit of calm, to quiet your own nervous system down. And calm is contagious. When you get a little calmer, he'll be able to get a little calmer, and the two of you can feel a little contagious, connected. And it will give you the possibility of being curious about what's going on without feeling like. Or actually rewarding sort of bad behavior on his part. And you know what, if these other parents see you being calm, clear, firm, setting limits in very healthy ways, shows them you know what you're doing, you're capable of handling this. You're a wonderful mom. You're a model mom. And I'm curious, how often is he staying at his dad's place?

Single Mom (21:10)

A little bit more often at mine. He's with me four nights a week and he's with dad three nights a week.

Dr. Susan Swick (21:16)

Okay.

Single Mom (21:19)

So I'm not sure how they talk about it with him, but I do know that. And I date as well, but, like, I'm pretty slow. I've never introduced him to anyone that I've dated. And I did talk about it with two different people. One of whom was also raised by a single mom and was extremely understanding, and one of whom was a little bit more pushy about. He had a daughter as well and wanted the kids to meet, but I just wasn't ready. And part of that, I think, is for me, it's been easier to just keep those parts of my life separate at the moment. But part of it was that I saw how difficult it was on my son, being that this is another mom at the school. I think it's been very confusing for him. He and her daughter, they get along, but I don't think they ever would have self selected as friends. I do see now it's been about a year, and I know they spend time together. I know they have sleepovers when my son is over at his dad's, which I also. I was like, really? Do you wanna do that because he lives in a one bedroom apartment. They are in the same room. And I felt kind of strange about that, but also like I can't control what he does and I don't know how he talks to him about things. We do communicate, which I feel grateful for that we are able to communicate. But it's sort of because I make a huge effort for that to happen and I have to let go of a lot of things, which is a good exercise for me, I say. But I know that it upsets my son in a way that his dad chooses not to see.

Dr. Susan Swick (23:10)

Well, it sounds like you have a really clear eyed view of the situation with your ex, but it's hard. I'm kind of wondering when your son does have these big feelings and they're related to your husband, what happens there?

Single Mom (23:28)

So like we were coming back, this was maybe a couple of weeks ago. We were coming back from one of his camps and it had been the best day at camp. He had a great day. We played with his little friend afterward and went to get ice cream. And then his friend's mom gave us a ride home, which was like huge. Cause it either, you know, you can drive home in less than 10 minutes or it's like a 45 minute to an hour long bus walking cycle. So it was just like everything was going our way. We were singing songs in the street. It was this great day. And then we unexpectedly ran into his dad and his girlfriend and my son got really quiet and he like clearly felt upset. And then we, you know, we said hello and then we parted ways. And then immediately my son was just livid with me. You know, like, you're the worst mommy in the world. You're such a poopy mommy. You know, all these things that poopy mommy gets leveraged at me a lot. But he was, you know, he gets angry and it's in ways that I think he can't even quite understand. And he gets angry with me and sometimes he'll even say this like, you know, he'll say things like, why doesn't dada love you anymore? And it's like, oof. It's really hard for me to explain that I'm actually in a much better place not being with his dad. And I don't ever say anything bad about his dad to him, but I know that it upsets him to see them together. And again, I think that's something that's more difficult to touch because I think it's like, it's just confusing and I do wish, I think his dad would maybe talk to him more about it. But I also, for my own self, for my own protection, I have to sort of stay out of certain conversations.

Dr. Susan Swick (25:22)

Yeah. Well, it sounds like there are so many things that you and your family, but your son in particular have been through in the last few years. A lot of changes and a lot of losses. And he may not know that he feels mad after seeing his father because he's frustrated that his dad has made things weird or that he can't talk with his dad about things that are weird. And his, you know, kids of all ages, but especially preschool and early school age kids, are kind of used to being the center of the universe for their parents and grandparents. And when there's complications, when there's illness, when there's separation, divorce, new romance, kids aren't entirely the center of the universe. It's just how it has to be. And that can be confusing and make him ache, you know, for something he misses. Nothing that needs to be fixed or repaired, but in some ways just sort of to be born alongside him so he's not bearing it alone. And maybe just being curious. Was that weird to see dad? Was that a little hard? You don't have to trash talk anybody to be able to, to sort of talk with your child about the big feelings. He's going to keep having these big feelings. He's a kid of feelings. He's a thoughtful, caring, empathic, curious, very smart sounding kid who's had a lot of big situations. And he, it sounds like he craves your, he'd love you to fix it. But we as parents quickly reckon with the fact that, that there's a lot of things we can't fix. Cancer we can't fix, loss of a grandparent, we can't fix. And separation and divorce probably was a good fix for a real issue and a problem.

Single Mom (27:28)

Definitely.

Dr. Susan Swick (27:29)

Yeah. And his sadness about that is also normal and it will soften over time. And a kid with a big heart and very perceptive eyes and heart needs, needs your company in feeling those feelings together. It does sound like with you it's safest to share the bigness of these feelings. He lets you have it, right? He even said he lets you have the howitzer of I wish you were dead and he's lost people, you guys have lost people. And of course that's not what he wishes, but he wishes things were different in a moment when he has a big feeling and being able to have your company, it won't take the feelings away. Feelings Keep happening. They're like weather. It's like you still get storms and clouds and high humidity days, but as he gets older and has your companionship like that, you can bear a big feeling with him now. A big feeling doesn't mean he can do whatever he wants to do when he has it right.

Single Mom (28:41)

Yeah, he still has to go to school.

Dr. Susan Swick (28:42)

Yeah, he has to go to school. He can't. And he can't punch you. He can't bite. We don't want him thinking that a big feeling is an excuse. And yet being able to say, what do you need to do to calm down? Let this storm pass. It's a storm. It's real. What should we do? Do we need to go sit on the bench? Do we need to. But you come up with your playlist. But again, it doesn't have to fix it. But maybe giving him a little more explicit permission to be in the feeling and talk about the feeling without looking for a quick punishment or a quick solution.

Single Mom (29:24)

I would ask. That's a question that I have. It definitely goes better. Even though it can be heartbreaking, it definitely goes better the times that he's willing to talk with me.

Dr. Susan Swick (29:34)

Yes.

Single Mom (29:35)

Like, after we ran into his dad, we went and sat at the park, and then they passed by again and just waved. And my son said, I wish that, you know, I asked. I think I did ask something like, was that weird? Or how do you feel? You know? And he was like, I thought they were gonna come and play with us. And then they just left, you know, and it's like, oh, well, honey, you know, tonight is a mommy. It's our night together. And I don't know what I said. We talked about it, and then when he was very upset at the festival, he was willing to talk with me, which feels, yes, again, really difficult to hear, but so much better. I'm glad that he's talking. But then, yes, the moments that do become very challenging are when he punches me, he bites me. He does these things that. I mean, it's wonderful to have conversations about them later or before, but in the moment, yeah, in the moment, there's really nothing I can do. And he actually is at the point where he can hurt me. And that's something that I know he doesn't ever intend to do, but he doesn't really know how strong he is. And those are also the moments that it's like, I hate for that to be witnessed in public because it's not a great look for us. And I know that he does not behave that way with his father. So I think externally, I mean, if you know the whole story, you can say how wonderful that he's able to express emotionally with you in a way that he doesn't do with his dad. But externally it looks like, gee, what a bad mother. And look at how he hits her and look at how they're having all this conflict. But then with his father, he's just an a kid all the time. That's something that I have a hard time navigating. And in those moments, I really, I really don't know what I can do until I can get him to a quiet space.

Dr. Susan Swick (31:27)

Okay, I really feel your pain. It is so hard to manage aggression. And six year olds are very impulsive still, especially when they are distressed. It comes right out of their mouths, their fingers, their feet. That said, it's going to be really important for you to feel ready to have a quick, decisive response to him. This is going to really require that first you start by trying to have a conversation with him during a quieter time. You might say, here are the ground rules. You can't punch, hit, and you can include any of the things you want on this list. And you say, when you're getting upset, I'm going to ask, are you getting upset right now? What do we need to calm down? But if you punch or hit, I'm going to tell you, you only have three strikes. Six year olds understand three strikes. And if you're doing something fun in the moment, like you're at a park or at an ice cream shop, you're going to have to leave and he's not going to get his ice cream or he's not going to get to stay and play. And you say, hopefully we don't ever have to leave an ice cream shop or go to timeout. But as we're learning how to manage ourselves, sometimes we end up in timeout. That's just how it's going to go. When you and I have scripts with our kids for when they're most upset, it helps us to stay calm and clear, to not end up screaming or pleading. And the first time that you use may feel a little messy. He may get extra upset that he is going to time out or losing something he's used to getting. But by the second or third time, you won't get to three anymore. He is clearly a smart boy. He's able to keep it together in school, so he's going to be able to learn to nip it in the bud when he gets this calm, clear response. From you. And knowing what your script is for those moments will really help you stay calm, not have that rush, that long script running in your head. I know I've had it run in my head of like, oh, how can we be doing this again? And in this public place? And didn't we just talk about this? And can't I get a break today? All those things are going through your head. You don't have to say them or have them inform what you say. When you know, all you have to say is, that's one. We're strike one. And give it a, give it a try. It can be very helpful.

Single Mom (34:17)

Yeah.

Dr. Susan Swick (34:20)

With that, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Do you think that your son worries about losing you?

Single Mom (34:40)

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think that's why when I cough, he gets worried that I'm sick and I'm gonna die. Or like if I cough, he thinks I'm gonna get him sick. And he has a lot of anxieties that I think are really founded in his reality. And I feel sad about that. And I wonder, you know, I think that whereas the, all of the things have been difficult, I feel like when he gets older, I think I've been told by other divorced parents, like, when they get older, they will be able to see things differently.

Dr. Susan Swick (35:16)

Yes, that's true.

Single Mom (35:18)

Even if you don't say anything bad about your ex ever, like, when he gets older, he may see some of the behaviors, you know, and that is that. But the illness and the fear around illness, I feel like that's gonna be just founded in his psyche forever. And I worry about that because it was such a formative time for him.

Dr. Susan Swick (35:43)

Do you talk to him about it?

Single Mom (35:46)

Yeah.

Dr. Susan Swick (35:47)

I mean, he lost people, you know, he lost his grandma and I'll take a chance here, but you're probably his most important person and maybe he's afraid.

Single Mom (35:59)

Yeah, oh, definitely. And I mean, we talk about it absolutely. When he says these things like, oh, are you sick? Are you gonna die? I remind him, no, honey, I'm healthy now. I'm safe. I'm not gonna die. I usually try to say it. I'm not gonna die anytime soon. We're gonna live so many, so many, so many years. And you know, you're gonna, you're gonna be a grown up and like, you have so much time and whatever. I try to, I try not to say I'm never going to die because that's not totally real. Even though I think that would make sense to him in A certain way, but we always talk about it. And again, I appreciate that he will talk with me about these things, but it doesn't make it any easier. And after, during the process that I was sick and maybe for about six months after we read a bunch of books about mommy is a cancer fighting superhero and things like that, we also read a bunch of books about having a grandparent who dies. Like, we read all these books, but then there came a time where I was like, you know, I feel like reading all these books constantly is just making it heavier for him. So we had that cycle and then we sort of stepped out of that cycle because I felt like it was important to give him a little bit more space.

Dr. Susan Swick (37:22)

Yeah, no, it's nice to go back to comic books when you can. But I wonder if, in a way, when he does ask, are you gonna die? Being able to say, sweetie, what's got you worried about that? And see if he can sort of play you his movie. Sometimes the things we're worried about, you may want to be able to talk to him about, I don't know, five year survival rates with the lymphoma and how good the outcomes are, all this stuff. And he may be worried about a child's eye view of what happens if he's just losing people. And he may be thinking, oh, gosh, if I lose mom, where am I going to live? Do I have to live with dad and the girlfriend in one bedroom? Or who else is there for me? Who would take care of me?

Single Mom (38:20)

He does literally ask that sometimes. Yeah, he does. I mean, he really, this kid, he's so smart. He really goes there. He'll say, would I live with my aunt and uncle? With. He asked about my sister and her husband. And I do say, I mean, probably that would actually be the plan. But it's not gonna happen, honey. You know, like, it's not gonna happen. I'm here, I'm healthy, it's gonna be okay, and you're gonna stay with me. I did have this thought. We're going to visit a friend of mine who he and his wife are both medical professionals. And I had this idea with my therapist that maybe they could do like a pretend exam in front of him on me and say, like, oh, mommy's totally healthy again, or something like that to see if that would, you know, bring him some sort of comfort. But I just think it's such a lingering fear for him that it continues to come up.

Dr. Susan Swick (39:23)

And the other thing is, it sounds like it's a lingering fear and he Wants to manage his fears with you. He wants to be able to come to you and figure out, what do I do? How do we make this better? And I'm thinking about him as a, as a storyteller. But letting him maybe play you a movie, play out a movie, even if it's scary. Often when we're fearful or anxious, being told everything is okay can be a quick bit of relief, but it leaves us feeling like we're still in trouble. Whereas having a chance, being curious, letting him actually tell the story. What would it be like to live with your aunt and uncle? Who else is there? Like, just sort of get into it, let him sort of tell a big story, weave a yarn for you about what it would be like to live with one person or another person or another person. And you'll get to hear about what actually matters to him, what he's afraid of and what he's afraid of losing. And the fact that you can bear it and listen to this will reassure him, one, that it's not going to happen. I mean, it could, but if it was untalkaboutable, if it was like really terrifying, you'd probably be like, nope. And it's, we're not talking about it. Whereas being able to let him sort of, sort of play it all out, weave you a yarn, tell the story of all, what could he imagine? And then being able to say, you know, that's really, it's helpful to know. I think maybe it would be best with your aunt and uncle. You say, but I don't plan on going anywhere. Like, I'm not, I'm not. I have a lot to do and I want to see what happens in Taekwondo this year and being able to do both. But. So he has your company in playing out his, his worst case scenarios, which I think may be a bit of what he's doing. And that you can bear the big feelings that come with also suggests that you'll, you're going to stay connected, you're going to keep talking to him. If something should happen, he'll know about it so that you don't have to maybe do a fake medical exam, which I love that idea. It's great. Yeah. And you could do that too, and see what he thinks about it. But being able to just say whatever you're thinking about or worried about, I want to hear, I want to hear about it.

Single Mom (42:06)

I like that that's something that we have not. So that's something we can do. And I feel like, especially if he's having these thoughts or discussions at night when he's calmer. I think he will sort of. And even if he doesn't, if it's during the day, then it's something I would bring up in that time and space because that is when he's most open to talking.

Dr. Susan Swick (42:28)

Yeah, I'm so impressed with despite everything you have been through in the last, I mean, just piled up in one year. But, but in the last few years that you've cultivated such a beautiful relationship with him in a civil relationship with your ex and friendships, it's really extraordinary. I'm very hopeful that just creating a little space with your son will help him start to feel like, oh, these big feelings are manageable. I really appreciate you spending time with us and sharing your story and you and your son's story.

Single Mom (43:12)

Thank you. It was great to be here. Thank you for talking with me.

Dr. Susan Swick (43:19)

If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now is the perfect time.

Podcast Host (43:24)

You can listen to Talk About Able completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive content like a special meditation from me that'll help you find peace through some of your biggest parenting challenges. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple podcasts, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app, or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. Talk About Able is produced by Lemonada Media in partnership with the Ohana center for Child and Families Family Mental Health at Montage Health and made possible through funding from the Montage Health Foundation. Together, we are committed to helping families talk about the issues that children, teens and young adults are facing today. We believe that when these conversations happen at home, even the most challenging subjects, children build the skills they need to flourish. Because when families are connected, the hard moments become more bearable, the the good moments become even better, and it all becomes Talk About Able. This show is produced by Aria Bracci, mixing and sound design by Brian Castillo, Kristin Lepore is Senior Director of New Content and Jackie Danziger is Vice President of Narrative and Production. Maggie Crowshaw is our Managing Director of Partnerships. Executive producers include myself, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Steven Stephanie Whittles Wax and a very special thanks to Kelsey Talley and Maya Smith. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Thanks so much for listening.

Dr. Susan Swick (44:59)

Talk to you next week.