← Talkaboutable with Dr. Susan Swick
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- [00:02]
A
Lemonade. I'm Dr. Susan Swick and this is talk about Able. For the final episode of season one, I am sitting down with my sister, the one and only Lauren Jordan. She's not only my sister, though. Lauren is also my dear friend and a parent of two young adult children. We talk all the time about our kids and now we're talking about how our own upbringing has affected our parenting styles. We were in the same home, but our experiences were also very different as kids and we found very different paths to becoming parents. As you'll hear, I love my sister and I also admire her and have learned so much from her. And I wanted to sit down so you could all hear about what has guided and sustained her, raising two amazing children with very different needs and experiences. So we hope you can learn something and of course, we hope that you enjoy our time together. Who lives in your home? Oh, yeah, you know, just who lives in your home?
- [01:24]
B
My home is myself, my husband. Do you want names maybe?
- [01:30]
A
Sure, if you want.
- [01:32]
B
They're famous, they know they're cool. My husband Sean, my oldest is TJ. He is 25. He is autistic and we have a puppy in the home. His name, he is three months and his official name is Samuel Emma Ding Dong, but we call him Sam. And I have a 24 year old daughter who lives in an apartment nearby, drops by for like food sometimes and love.
- [02:04]
A
Yes, yes. My 23 year old drives over, you know, nearly two hours to do laundry and I love it. I love it because it gives us a chance to have meal together. I love that. Yeah, Stay connected.
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B
That's wonderful.
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A
Heaven. And if you were to describe each of your children's special gift or talent, their superpower, what would it be?
- [02:38]
B
Let's see. Oddly enough, I'm gonna say that it's the same for both of them. I think they both have a self assuredness and a good ability to take care of themselves in very different ways, but a good strong connection to who they are. And I'm so happy to say this about Ari, cause it's taken her a lot to get here and she's here and she's like, she's my hero in how much she has fought to get to her place of authenticity and living in her truth and feeling comfortable in her skin. I couldn't be more proud of her and TJ in the same way. Different way. But he also is very confident in his skin and lives his life. They both live unapologetically and I'm so, so proud of both of them. For that. And they've both arrived there in very different ways.
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A
I love that. So both are really comfortable in their skin and true to themselves.
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B
True to themselves. And they both had to go through it to get there, I think.
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A
Do you. Do you want to say a little. Do you want to say a little more? Sure.
- [03:49]
B
Ari is. My daughter is trans, and she's just turned 24 and has been living as a trans woman for two years now. Three. Something like that. And I just. I. I think back all the time of the different steps, all starting in middle school, the steps that she's taken to get here, and how just going there bit by bit, was the way she needed to do it and figuring things out a little bit at a time for herself. And to say she is flourishing and blossoming and just. You can see it in her face. Just every time I look at her, she's so content and at peace. And it's different. When I look back at old pictures of her, I see a big difference in her face, just in how the old pictures look a little forced somehow. And now I don't see that. There's no trace of that.
- [04:52]
A
Was there a time where you were more worried or uncertain or it was.
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B
Difficult about her identity? Yeah, I don't think so. I kind of took it as she gave it to me. She said, in middle school, if you don't mind, I'll tell a little because.
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A
It emerged a little later.
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B
Right.
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A
It wasn't. It wasn't a childhood. No. From. From the age of four. Always the same thing. It was a little later.
- [05:24]
B
It was later. She seemed to be needing to find something. I mean, I always felt like she just couldn't find her place. She'd try sports, she'd try drums, she'd try this, she'd try that, she'd try music. Different parts of it. Just never felt she couldn't really find her groove. And in middle school, I was driving her to school, and she was in the backseat, and she said, mom, I think I'm bi. And I said, okay, keep me posted. I got you. We support you. We love you no matter what. And then in high school, she. She, you know, she dated a girl in high school, and.
- [06:08]
A
She was still identifying male. And.
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B
Yes. And then in high school, she would say, mom, I think I'm gay. And I'd say, okay, cool. What can we do to support you? No one better be mean to you, because I'll get them, you know, staunch. Mom, I got your back. And dad, too. We were like, we. We're so happy you're figuring things out. We love you. And you were here for that Thanksgiving a few years ago when she said to us privately, in a house full of 25 people, she kind of took us aside and said, I'd like to change my name to Ari, and I would like to change my pronouns to she, they. And that one was a little harder for me.
- [06:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is hard.
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B
And as always, I said, whatever. You got it. I love you. I love you. But with alone, I was just like, ooh, that one's. I want to do right by her. And I feel a tug in my heart. It's hard.
- [07:15]
A
That one's harder. It's a loss. I think it's. Sometimes the politics get ahead of the science, and sometimes the politics or the love suggest to us that two things can't be true, but they can both.
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B
Be true at the same time.
- [07:33]
A
You were right there to support Ari with their journey and whether that was the end of the journey or still just one stop on a long journey, because you couldn't have known that in middle school when they said they were by. I get very. Where I'm like, if we're in the past, do you use the past pronoun? Or I use she.
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B
And I say, when Ari was little. I know. And you know what? Here's what's awesome.
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A
If we mess up, just use the name no.
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B
And if we mess up, Ari's cool with it. Like Ari says, it takes people time to catch up, especially people who have known her since she was born. That's tricky. And she's okay with it as long as you make the genuine effort to just support her. She knows you love her.
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A
Yeah, that's love.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Well, and I remind. I remind young people and older people that pronouns originally were developed to help us cut corners cognitively. And older people need to cut corners cognitively. And so just be patient, show compassion.
- [08:42]
B
Mom can't do it. Mom is struck. Glenn and Ari's just kind of like, you know, Ari. Ari does her best to understand, but mom's mom can't do it. And that's okay. It is what it is.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
It may be cognitive, and it may be something else, but I love the idea. I mean, I think it's really worth saying out loud that two things can be true. That you are unconditionally loving your child and there to support their journey. And. And.
- [09:17]
B
And it was.
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A
You feel what you feel. Yeah, you feel what you feel.
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B
That's the good part. She was along that part with Us. And she understood. And I would say the wrong name, I would say the wrong pronoun. And now she's strictly going by she pronouns.
- [09:32]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I just. You know, for. I just think it's so important to say out loud that wherever you. Or wherever Sean or wherever her brother TJ might have been, or wherever we are, our mother, wherever Grandma is, also is okay. We can be loving and compassionate towards ourselves and towards the other people that are in the orbit of this young person who's on their odyssey of figuring out how to live and flourish within the skin they have. And it's a different journey for each person. And it's okay to feel grief, to feel frustration, or. I mean, whatever it is you feel. Even the ugliest, most uncomfortable emotions are understandable. And the key is that you don't have to talk about them necessarily with art.
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B
That's right.
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A
It can be with me or with Sean or with a friend that they deserve to be honored, shared, honored, validated, supported.
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B
And I feel like, for me in particular, I have to feel them. Not to get over them, but I have to go through them. It's a part of what I've got. And to put. When I get in trouble, when I push away and ignore it and say, oh, that's not allowed. Like, that's not good for me. So I don't think that's good for anybody. But I've had to come to accept the fact that, you know, even the ugly feelings are valid and can be addressed and need to be addressed and processed and sorted to go through.
- [11:14]
A
And I think it's. I often think there's this saying in Sweden of, maybe it's Norway. They'll be really mad in Norway if I give credit to Sweden, but maybe it's Finland. Okay? Somewhere in Scandinavia, there's a saying that there's no bad weather, only bad clothes. Like, you have the wrong clothes for the weather. And I think similarly, there's no bad feelings. There's no bad feelings. Feelings happen. Feelings are feelings, and you just need to create space to kind of meet them, shake hands with them, identify them. And if you are telling your child that whoever you are, I love you, you be your authentic self, then it's just as important to honor your authentic self. And whatever feelings move through you, pass through you as you are loving your child, and it has to be. It has to also be genuine. It cannot be a source of shame to feel whatever you feel. And I think that's one thing that can get families tangled up, that they Feel like there are right feelings and wrong feelings, good feelings and bad feelings. I have to tell you, we find.
- [12:37]
B
This all the time in the autism community. My oldest, TJ, 25, is autistic. And when he was diagnosed, he was diagnosed at 2 years, 4 months. And when he was diagnosed, it was the same kind of grief that we had to process just until we found our groove, you know, or accept this new road. There's a very famous story. Welcome to Holland.
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A
Have you heard that we're doing a lot of European?
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B
I know, but I didn't write this. So welcome to Holland is you're on a plane. You planned forever for this trip to Italy. You saved all your money. You've plotted every day. You're so excited, you've thought your whole life, I'm going to Italy. And then you're on a plane and you're going to Italy and you're so excited. That plane lands in Holland. You expected to go to Italy, but you're in Holland. So you get off the plane and you're like, okay, this isn't what I expected. But look at those tulips. They're beautiful. And there's so much here to learn that I hadn't planned on learning and I hadn't planned on seeing and I hadn't planned on experiencing. But I'm in it. So let's learn and let's experience it. And that's.
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A
Did you did. Wait, can you maybe say a little? Because I know tj, but maybe so that we're sharing this with people, say a little more about TJ's autism, what it has meant for him, for you. Just so people, because autism is a big, huge spectrum.
- [14:05]
B
Yes, TJ is autistic. I don't know. I think there are new levels now, like level one, two and three. I looked and I tried to determine, we were not diagnosed at level one, two, three time. Because he's 25, I'm guessing he's around level two. He's kind of middle of the road. He's medium supports. He needs medium supports.
- [14:27]
A
He's verbal.
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B
He's verbal. He has a part time job and he lives in an apartment that we've built in our basement. We've looked at independent living facilities and he's not ready. It's just not a match yet. Maybe someday, but for now he's safe being in our living in an apartment in the basement. Full apartment, full kitchen, where we're teaching him how to cook and teaching him how to clean his bathroom and teaching him, you know, how to Take care of your own apartment. And he has a part time job and he works every weekday 9 to 1 at TJ Maxx in the backs. And he's doing such a great job there and getting so much work done. They love him.
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A
Incredible. Would you say that helping TJ learn. I'm just trying to paint a picture, helping TJ learn to communicate effectively, that he always had speech, but that it was hard for him to communicate about feelings or communicate.
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B
We still have some bumps with that. More grown up bumps. Foot bumps.
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A
Did it take up a lot of space and time at home when both kids were little?
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B
Yes.
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A
Do you know what I mean? Can you describe.
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B
So there's a lot of negotiating between siblings. I feel like it's amplified in our. It was amplified in our family with autism and helping Ari understand TJ's strengths and maybe not so strengths in terms of communicating or sharing or stubborn and vice versa, quite frankly. You know, like I remember saying so many times, fair does not mean equal. Equal is not fair to both of them. Something I can think of, quite frankly, is food. TJ and his sensory issues. You remember a lot of this?
- [16:26]
A
Oh, yes.
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B
And TJ has very specific. He simply could not eat certain things that I would make Ari and we'd make the rest of the kids eat when we'd all be sitting down together. And they didn't understand why TJ would have a different plate. And it didn't make sense. And we had to talk about, you know, it doesn't look fair. You're right, and it stinks. And I'm sorry, but fair is not. Here's a great example. Like, we could happily put a plate of peas in front of Ari, but if we were introducing peas to TJ, we had to start with one, and then the next day we'd give him two, and then the next day we'D give him three. And then the next day we'd give him four. And that's how he learned to eat peas, you know, but that's what it took. And sometimes he would put up such a strong barrier and say no that the food would just be removed from his repertoire.
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A
Did you talk about autism with Ari and tj? Did you use that word?
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B
Yes, we did from the very beginning because we didn't want it to be a word. There's no shame in the word. It just is simply a difference. It's.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Not for everyone. Simply a difference. For us, it was simply a difference.
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A
Right, right. But it takes work to get there. Because still, like, you're right, Holland has windmills and tulips and that's lovely. But sometimes when you first get off the plane, where am I? You. You look around, you're like. It's flat. And there's. What language are people speaking? And what is this food?
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B
It's crazy. It was very disorienting in the very beginning. But one thing we decided immediately is autism is not a dirty word. So we wanted it. It's just simply a part of who he is. So we were. Always said it in front of our kids, in front of your kids, in front of everybody. It's just the way it is. And we would happily explain if we'd go out to playground, he's autistic, so please be a little more patient. We'd say that to the other kids, you know, that's just the way it is.
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A
And 23 years ago, I think that it was better than it was in the 70s.
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B
Oh, yes.
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A
But it was. It's much different today than it was 23 years ago.
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B
Yes.
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A
So was there ever. Did you meet resistance or meet different approaches or. Were there. Are there. Did you. Did you come by that easily? Like.
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B
There wasn't coming by anything to me, you know? When TJ was first diagnosed, Sean and I decided to join a support group. We found a support group of other autistic parents. Not autistic parents. Parents of autistic children. And I say autistic because TJ has chosen autistic. We offered. Do you like us to call you autistic or with autism? Because they're different and different people prefer different ways. So for our family, TJ Prefers autistic. So that's why I say autistic.
- [19:25]
A
Oh, I love that. You do. With both. With both children, you've created space for them to identify their.
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B
Absolutely. It's not pronouns. It's their world. How would you like us to address it? That's just. That's very important to us and always has been. And if he changes his mind, then we'll change our verbiage. But for now, it's autistic. So we joined a support group and we would go around. Our first day there, we'd go around and talk about our children. And after the meeting, a lot of people came up to us and said, you, kid is barely autistic. You don't belong here.
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A
What?
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B
And that was.
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A
What does that mean?
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B
I guess they had more intense struggles than we had. I mean, I don't. We just started. We didn't even know we were in Holland. We just got off the plane in Holland. So he cannot live independently. He doesn't drive. He needs to be prompted to get out of his apartment. Like he would stay down there on his iPad all day.
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A
Yes.
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B
I'm still actively pulling him upstairs.
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A
Yeah, it takes active management.
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B
Yeah. His first sentence came when he was three and he walked down the stairs after working with a therapist up in his room and the teacher said, TJ has something to say to you. And I said, hi, buddy. And he goes, hi, Mom. And that was just the first sentence he ever said. I know, I know.
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A
You and I both. This will be the podcast of tears.
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B
I know. I have tissues. I wish I could share them with you.
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A
No, I have a napkin. Never appropriately prepare.
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B
It's abrasive to the nose. Yeah.
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A
Yeah, it is. It is. I have a soft napkin. It's not bad.
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B
Okay, that's good. I'm concerned for your nose.
- [21:19]
A
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B
Equal does not mean fair. Yeah.
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A
And maybe it's a moment for us to talk a little bit about being siblings, too.
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B
Yes. Boy, that kind of sums up our childhood a little bit, doesn't it?
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A
Yeah, it was really. I was just. It made me think about how we. Of course, we're different people. We're different human beings, but we're sisters. We're only 18 months apart. We are probably more alike than different. Although we were raised being told maybe that we were very different. Maybe a little bit.
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B
Maybe a little bit smidge.
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A
And we had, we had, we had. I mean, of course, we had mostly shared experiences, but also very distinct experiences.
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B
I think what's really interesting is we had shared experiences from different seats, so.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So tell me more about that. Tell me what you're thinking.
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B
Well, just. Just the way we navigated the world and how we were spoken to by our mom, who. Just for the record for your listeners, our mom is profoundly mentally ill, which.
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A
We didn't know until we were adults. Yeah. Until she was like in her 50s and we were approaching 30.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Maybe approaching our 30s.
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B
Yes. And I don't know what the correct verbiage is, but when I was young, she. Yeah, she kind of needs a project. She needed someone to save. So for. It started off with you. You were the one to save for a week, and she put you.
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A
Well, I'm older. Yeah, I'm older. You like, she, yeah, she tried.
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B
She put you in the hospital for a week, and the doctor is like, there's nothing wrong with her. She can go home.
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A
Yeah. And then back in the day. Back in the day, where you could put people in the hospital.
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B
I'm dying to know what she said to them to get you hospitalized for a week.
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A
Apparently. She said that I was having serious headaches. She called them migraines, which I don't know how you can tell if a 5 year old is having migraines, but she said I was having migraines and changes in my reflexes, physical changes. So that's enough to get admitted to a children's hospital.
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B
Didn't they do a spinal tap or something? Horrible.
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A
Yeah, they did the whole thing. I had everything. Eeg. Spinal.
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B
Oh, I had EEG in college. I can tell you about that.
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A
Oh, my God. Well, we. We will. We will.
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B
All right.
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A
Okay. Yes. So, yes, a modest attempt to. And I will say this, that she was genuinely worried that something was wrong and trying to find a way to get. Get what?
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B
She.
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A
To get it taken seriously. Get it diagnosed and treated. That there was a vigorous, protective.
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B
Vigorous is a good word.
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A
That was. And my. My guess, I don't remember it at all. But my guess is that I don't. I don't remember having headaches. I was gonna say maybe I had a little headache. Maybe I had a headache. I mean, clearly something. But that's the illness based on nothing. Correct.
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B
It starts in. It's rooted in the smallest of truths and then blown up into something that doesn't exist.
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A
And so.
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B
So after you were cured then.
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A
I was not cured. They decided it was an allergy to chocolate.
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B
Oh.
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A
So this time of year, we're right around. Halloween was always a very sad time of year for me because I would go trick or treating and then had to turn in all my chocolate and trade it for licorice, starburst, and Smarties and the dreaded Necco wafers, which just. Don't. Don't even get me started.
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B
Smarties aren't bad, but, you know, they're no Snickers.
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A
Yeah, they. They decided I was allergic to chocolate, which, by the way, I'm not allergic to it.
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B
Yeah, that didn't last very long, though, because.
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A
No. Well, secretly I ate chocolate. I just didn't.
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B
And then I got. Then I was allergic to everything. So then after that, my. I became mom's project and she decided I was allergic to chicken, corn, and everything with corn in it, including corn syrup, a la gum, or could not have gum, all dairy. I feel like there was something else, but I can't I'm sure there was something else. Who knows?
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A
Wheat. What? No, not wheat. Chicken. Corn. Chicken corn. Milk.
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B
All dairy. Yeah, all dairy.
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A
Okay. Yeah, yeah. No, I remember. That was like.
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B
And that was years.
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A
That was the rule for our house.
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B
That was years into middle school. So I was. That was forever. So when I would go to sleepovers, I'd have to bring my own food. And when I remember middle school trips to New Hampshire, like you did a week camping trip with your class. I had to go with a giant cooler filled with meals which people apparently were jealous of, because mom's home cooking was not chicken a la king from the school. It was better. But who wants to be different at that age?
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A
No. Nobody. It is the worst. It was the worst. Chicken a la king is much better than.
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B
I wanted the chicken a la king, even though it was gross. But.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So I was raised thinking, there's something wrong with me. And I remember that mom used to take me to doctor after doctor after doctor and hospital, blood draw, blood draw, blood draw. And then I heard them say to mom, there is nothing wrong with her, but there might be something wrong with you. And then we. Then it would be her screaming in the car about, those doctors, don't know anything, and let's find another one. So it was. And then she decided she knew best, so she'd start giving me all this medicine and all these different vitamins and all this crap.
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A
So I know.
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B
So that's.
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A
That was.
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B
That was how we were when we were little. I thought something was wrong with me and you were the rock star of the house.
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A
Yeah, I was. No, there was definitely the story at home was that mom was a great advocate for you, for both of us. Loved us. And she was, in some ways the most incredible mom. Like, she made mouse houses for us for. I mean, she was, like, generous and creative and would. I mean, she was a early childhood education.
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B
And a lot of our favorite memories were sitting at the table making puppets. We used to make gifts for our teachers for the end of year.
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A
We made these. Oh, my God. Do you remember the lollipops?
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B
Lollipops, yes. We take dough and make shapes and then crunch up hard candy and melt them in the dough and they'd be like stained glass lollipops for our teacher stuff.
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A
Lollipops. Remember the year we tried to make their faces? We made portraits of each kid and.
- [31:41]
B
It didn't go well. So I ended up making Ernie and Bert and giving them Ernie and. Because that was a much weighted thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [31:51]
A
But really, like, child focused.
- [31:55]
B
Absolutely. And in the worst way.
- [31:58]
A
Really troubled. Troubled way, where the underlying sort of story was that there was something wrong with you and she had figured it out and was making it work, but it was allergies and you needed special vitamins. I needed her and you needed her. And that I was. I was not. That I, I. That she had figured my issue out and now I.
- [32:27]
B
You're free to be free to go. Yes. That's right.
- [32:31]
A
Yes.
- [32:32]
B
Yeah. That's a lot for both of us.
- [32:35]
A
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
- [32:37]
B
But the way she treated me did give me the opportunity to learn my worth and learn my own value, so that I would find little pockets along the way of my life where I felt amazing and I would find places where I was flourishing. And I was like, oh, I love how this feels. I'm going to find. Once I felt it once, then I could find it again. And so I always say, there are five times I saved my own life, and those are the times where I found those different places where I felt great.
- [33:09]
A
Do you think anything about our childhood is in your mind when you're raising your children? Consciously, Intentionally, I mean. I think it was for you. I think it's always unconscious. Absolutely. So tell me. Tell me more about it.
- [33:25]
B
I wanted to make sure that I was a more consistent parent than I was parented. Does that. That's fair?
- [33:37]
A
It seems. I mean, because what I hear, and I don't think we've actually talked about this, but I'm so impressed that you have made such an effort. You have taken pains to make sure that whatever you might be feeling or needing in a moment does not color your children feeling special, important, and loved.
- [34:08]
B
Right.
- [34:10]
A
You don't at the same time, but you didn't sugarcoat things. Like, you didn't put, you know, you didn't, I don't know, avoid the reality of TJ's diagnosis. You didn't refuse to use the word or to pursue the treatment. You were right in it. You met that. You met that eyes wide open. But that whatever you might have been feeling, you've taken great care to not.
- [34:39]
B
Have it influence them be.
- [34:42]
A
I mean, how can it not. But to not have it be the dominant like that it's not about you, that you matter, and that it's about them.
- [34:51]
B
That's right.
- [34:51]
A
That both things can be true.
- [34:52]
B
Well, that's what I wanted more than anything, because I felt like my childhood was not about my childhood. It was about doing what I needed to do to make sure mom was okay. I felt this Huge responsibility. Even after like years, well into middle school, when I was eating whatever I wanted, when I wasn't under mom's watchful eye. And I didn't have any negative effects, but I still had to coddle her in many ways. So I did just. And that was just like for survival's sake, I think. I don't know. But I never wanted my kids to feel that way. Ever.
- [35:27]
A
Yeah. Yep.
- [35:29]
B
And I think I've done that. I think I'm a really good mom. And I'm almost grateful for the experience I had because it shaped me into the strong mom that I am in a lot of ways.
- [35:44]
A
We will be right back after this break.
- [35:48]
B
Foreign.
- [35:55]
C
Well, hi everybody. It's Julia Louis Dreyfus from the Wiser Than Me podcast. And I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill. It could be enriching our soil or feeding our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly, way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. But it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true. I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and it's fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and it's engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you have to kind of live with mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mil.com wiser for an exclusive offer.
- [37:31]
A
How would someone else, not me, how would someone that knows you describe your style as a parent?
- [37:38]
B
Oh, that's a good question. Hmm. Solid.
- [37:43]
A
That's what I'm here for, I think.
- [37:44]
B
Solid. Yeah. Consistent. Solid and strong and reliable. I just think I'm very. I think that my friends know me as a parent who will support my kids through tough times without blinders and without favoritism. I'm a very solid parent. I will look at them and say, honey, you messed up. I'll be the first One to say, you might be a little in the wrong here. Let's look. Let's look at this entire thing. I just feel like I have good perspective and good enough relationships with both of them that we can talk things through.
- [38:40]
A
I would go even farther and say that you are protective, but in the healthy sense, in the healthiest sense, that you always show up, that you're there for. And you actually are that way as a friend, too. You are always there for the people that are connected to you. And it's interesting because I think that's what our. Our mother was. It just. It was distorted a little bit. It was not as fully connected, you know, to reality you get scared of as a parent, meaning anything that. Where you're like, I didn't. I wanted to never do that. Is there?
- [39:23]
B
Yes.
- [39:23]
A
So what's that like?
- [39:26]
B
I think even up until. Maybe up until the past few years, my nervous system was just on all the time. And I've done a lot of work to just, like, mellow it. The pample mousse out. It is. You know what I mean? And I've never really lived where it wasn't just. I did so here. When I was at camp, when I was at boarding school, when I was at college, my nervous system was regulated. But then when I would go home. So it's easily triggered. And I never wanted it triggered so much that I would yell at them in such an uncontrolled way that my mother yelled at me.
- [40:05]
A
Right.
- [40:05]
B
And I did.
- [40:07]
A
Of course you did. Because that's human. It's human to sometimes lose your temper. But I can imagine that the aftermath of losing your temper would be worse for you where you might have felt shame.
- [40:19]
B
Oh, God, huge. And I beat the crap out of myself. And, like, I think I feel like I just did this recently where I yelled at TJ and I went to him and I said, I am. I'm so sorry. I am having a bad, bad day. I am so sorry I took it out on you. You did not deserve that.
- [40:39]
A
Well, and maybe he's because. Because TJ is who he is. He can't say maybe what he was feeling. But I will say to you that what is real is also to give yourself grace.
- [40:54]
B
That's what he. He said. It's okay. He said, no, no, Mom. Yeah, it's all right. He's so sweet.
- [41:00]
A
And it is that shame. You can feel a little regret or embarrassment and feel deep compassion for yourself that it's not because their mom was right and something was wrong with you. It's because it was Thursday and, like, 17 things had already happened and the final nerve got fried. And we're human. And I think. And you. Yeah.
- [41:23]
B
Part of parenting, too, is important for me to be honest with my kids and say, you know what? This is real. It's okay to lose it sometimes. It's also okay to talk about it when you're feeling better, recognize what you did wrong, and apologize. Because life is messy.
- [41:40]
A
In fact, that is where the, you know, kind of the magic happens where you get to model for your kids. That, of course, you. It's not that being mature is easy and happens as you enter adulthood just automatically. It's that we mature with effort. You know, some of it is time and growth, but a lot of it is facing something difficult, figuring out how to manage it, how you manage it. And we fall short. We fall short a lot. We fall short by losing our temper or by missing moment where empathy was called for.
- [42:26]
B
And we just couldn't pull it off.
- [42:28]
A
We just couldn't pull it off. Or we were busy in our own heads. And that hap. That is. And yet when our kids see us fall short, even in ways that are a little scary or repellent or all those things, that for us to not punish ourselves and suggest that it's shameful, but instead to say, I'm so sorry I fell short. And that happens. It actually models for them that it's okay to fall short sometimes. And the best we can do is to own it and to repair with the person. If you disappointed a person, you just offer a repair. And we give grace the same as we give grace to ourselves.
- [43:15]
B
I think giving permission for myself to mess up sometimes has been a big thing, and I'm just huge. It's a big thing for sure.
- [43:25]
A
Because I would imagine you have friends and followers, and I will say followers, not because you're a cult leader, but just for those listening. You also have been writing for 20 years almost.
- [43:41]
B
I've been writing about Ari and about TJ and about our family. And I've been published in some different websites and newspapers. And I think because of that, now TJ and I like to make some videos about autism and about our family and autism, and we put them on TikTok, which is fun.
- [44:05]
A
Oh, my God. You're like a modern human.
- [44:07]
B
Well, I mean, I don't know how half of it works, but I know how to make a video. And it's fun and. And it's wonderful. TJ feels so great when we do it, and it's. It's just. It's a fun thing he and I can do together, so. And it really is empowering. He's educating the world. He's sharing what his autism looks like with the world.
- [44:30]
A
Yep, yep. It's. It's a. It's wonderful.
- [44:33]
B
And I want everyone to know that I don't claim to be a perfectionist or an expert on autism, but I am an expert on TJ's autism.
- [44:44]
A
That's right.
- [44:45]
B
So that's what we do. It's not for everybody, but that's so.
- [44:52]
A
Lovely because what you're also saying to people is that being a parent is about leaning into your expertise about your child.
- [45:04]
B
Yeah, that's true. I never said it that way. That's great.
- [45:08]
A
You just lean into that while also always being open to what's ahead. Like, to letting them teach you about what they're learning about themselves, about what they're interested in, what they're getting, what they're struggling with, what they're getting good at, that it's being fully present with them as they figure things out.
- [45:30]
B
And with TJ, even into he's 25, and he's still figuring things out. And so am I, of course. We all are.
- [45:38]
A
Yeah.
- [45:38]
B
And I think giving each other the leeway to do so is such a precious gift.
- [45:44]
A
Do you think you took anything from our own parents?
- [45:52]
B
There were a lot of times when we had a lot of fun. We were goofy sometimes. I remember we would get dressed up. We went to Rocky Horror Picture Show. Susan. For one of your birthday parties. And we all wore rain suits, like, head to toe.
- [46:07]
A
I mean, and let's be clear with the listeners, it was not. We were not in high school. We were young.
- [46:15]
B
It was your 13th birthday party, and they got parental permission from all the kids attending. And everyone wore, like, rain suits. And we put on crazy makeup, and we got up and did the time warp.
- [46:32]
A
Time warp? Yes. And you were 11?
- [46:35]
B
I was 11.
- [46:37]
A
Did you get to bring friends?
- [46:38]
B
No, I sat with mom and dad. But mom and dad were in full rain gear, by the way. Oh, my God.
- [46:44]
A
And it was a midnight movie. Yes.
- [46:46]
B
And they threw stuff.
- [46:48]
A
Like.
- [46:48]
B
We had some fun.
- [46:49]
A
Both of our parents delighted in play.
- [46:52]
B
I think so.
- [46:52]
A
Well, in very different ways. And they were curious about us in that way. Like, they let us play, like, with each other. And even with maybe the different challenges that our parents faced from the world and internal challenges that there was. And it was authentic.
- [47:17]
B
We had a lot of joy. There was. For as much struggle as there was, there was a lot of Joy as well.
- [47:24]
A
There was. There was. I think that. And it's so incredible that. But when I've had people ask if we talk about where mom had such a serious illness and people are like, well, how are you functioning? And I just think that it's such a wonderfully humbling reminder that as long as there's love, one, I don't think that it was complicated, but it was love. We were very loved by both our parents. We were. And when there's room for play, there's delight. And there was joy. Like, it's incredible, but there was a lot of joy and play. And that is how we were connected with each other, because we did not have too many. You were athletic and musical, and I was not. I was not those things. When we were little. I was.
- [48:21]
B
You went to the acting camp, remember?
- [48:24]
A
I did go to an acting camp. Oh, my gosh, Yes, I went to acting camp. And we just were very, very different people. And yet when we were together and it was the. Those were the days where we didn't have screens to occupy us. Like, we had each other.
- [48:38]
B
We made up plays. We put on plays every holiday with. With our cousins. We did plays and musicals and dances.
- [48:46]
A
And.
- [48:49]
B
We. We were very. There was imagination all over the place. And it was wonderful. It was really wonderful.
- [48:57]
A
I love that. I am going to thank you for sharing your wonderful self with more than just me, with others that get to listen, being so generous. It's not a shock to me, but you are generous in all your relationships and clearly it comes back to you, but it's. Thank you for joining and sharing this story with such authenticity.
- [49:25]
B
Well, I want to thank you for sharing yourself and your knowledge base and your wisdom with the world, because I've listened to your episodes and the way you help so many people, Susan, with so many different things is just really a beautiful thing to witness. And I'm so proud of you and I'm so honored to be your sister. And I just appreciate you and what you're doing so much. And now in a different way, I'm just so proud of you. And I love you.
- [49:54]
A
I love you, too. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now is the perfect time you can listen to talk about Able completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive content like a special meditation from me that'll help you find peace through some of your biggest parenting challenges. Just tap the subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonade premium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. Talk About Able is produced by Lemonada Media in partnership with the Ohana center for Child and Family Mental Health at Montage Health and made possible through funding from the Montage Health Foundation. Together we are committed to helping families talk about the issue issues that children, teens and young adults are facing today. We believe that when these conversations happen at home, even the most challenging subjects, children build the skills they need to flourish. Because when families are connected, the hard moments become more bearable, the good moments become even better, and it all becomes Talk About Able. This show is produced by Aria Bracci, mixing and sound design by Brian Castilla, Kristen Lepore is Senior Director of New Content and Jackie Danziger is Vice President of Narrative and Production. Maggie Croucher is our Managing Director of Partnerships. Executive producers include Myself, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles. Wax and a very special thanks to Kelsey Talley and Maya Smith. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Thanks. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you next week.