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Tax Smart Real Estate Investors Podcast
353. The Mega Backdoor Roth 401(k): What High-Income Earners Should Know with Alex Savage
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In this episode of the Tax Smart REI Podcast, Tho…
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You're now listening to the Tax Smart REI podcast, the number one tax podcast for real estate investors.
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Your source for.
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All things real estate accounting and tax. Here we reveal our secrets that can save you thousands in taxes, streamline your accounting process and help grow your business. Stay tuned to hear insightful interviews with industry experts, successful real estate investors and current clients on what strategies they use to grow their business and how they steer clear of Uncle Sam.
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Hey everyone, thanks for tuning into this week's episode of the Tax Smart REI Podcast. Today I'm joined with Nathan Sosa and Alex Savage and we're going to be discussing the mega backdoor Roth IRA and when it makes sense and when it doesn't. So I know that we have a lot of listeners here on the show. Some people love retirement accounts, other people do not like retirement accounts. They prefer to keep their capital free for private investments. So we'll be breaking down everything, including when this is makes sense and when it doesn't. So if you're a high income earner, this strategy might surprise you. There might be some surprising tax benefits in there for you. So without further ado, we'll get started after a quick word from our sponsor. It's that time of the year again. The New Year's right around the corner. If you've been listening to the podcast all year thinking I really need to get proactive about my tax strategy, then this is your moment. Because the truth is, you probably don't even know how much money you're leaving on the table. At whole cpa, our team helps real estate investors and business owners save thousands of dollars through proactive year round tax planning. Whether you're looking to optimize cost segregation, leverage the real estate professional status or short term rentals, or structure your investments for maximum tax efficiency, then we've got you covered. But here's the deal. Spots for new clients are limited as we approach year end. So if you want to lock in your strategy before tax filing hits, don't wait. Check out the link in the show notes to request a consultation and start working with our team before you miss another opportunity to keep more of what you earn. All right, so thanks again guys for joining us here on the show today. Let's just maybe get started, right? Retirement account strategies for people who may not be in the loop. Like just what's the difference between a traditional retirement account and a Roth retirement account? Let's just start with the foundation there.
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Yeah, yeah, great question. Thanks for having me on here again. The traditional retirement account is going to be A pre tax account, whether it's 3 or 401k, whether it's through an IRA, is going to come in there, right? Pre tax going to give you that, that tax deduction is going to come out right post tax. So you're going to get taxed on that, right. At a future date. The Roth, right, on the other hand, is after tax. So it is going to be taxed today, hopefully. Right. We get tax free growth. And when you take it out, whenever that may be, in retirement or never, it's going to be tax free.
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A
Okay. So basically the Roth ira, you put the money in today, you don't receive a tax, excuse me, the Roth in general, not just an ira, you put the money in today, you don't see a tax deduction, but later on when you take it out, you're not being taxed, which can be advantageous.
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B
Correct?
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Correct.
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I'm going to start here with the importance of why Roth and the massive amount of benefit that this can have in retirement compared to going the traditional route here. So obviously we just talked about the tax free growth and the withdrawals there and we have access to our contributions because they are post tax already at any time during that play in life. So even before 59 and a half, when we may run into those 10% withdrawal penalties, that's not going to apply to your Roth contributions. Again, you can access those anytime. You also don't have to worry about the dreaded RMDs, the required minimum distribution. So with traditional qualified money bringing that pre tax, the IRS wants their share, right? The government wants their share. And so they actually require you to take out distributions from those types of accounts so you can realize the income, recognize the income. Right. And get taxed on that and pay your taxes with Roth qualified accounts. No RMDs. Roths also are going to give you security in terms of what happens with future tax rates, as we all are aware, right, our government has a pretty sizable debt load. And I don't know, I wish I had a crystal ball in terms of where tax rates are going to go. But the consensus is higher because they need to raise revenues. Right. To service the debt. So that's going to shield you from doing so. Having Roth qualified money there. You also have better coordination with Social Security. So because Roths are again tax free, essentially they're not going to appear, they're not going to increase your AGI, for example. Right. So we're not going to show up in terms of our tax return and increase our AGI. And that Also then has downstream effects. If we are taking Social Security it may allow us to keep more of that meaning we don't have to give it right back to the government through taxation. Another benefit here related to that is we have more control over Medicare in terms of those income related monthly adjustments and keeping our income down. Basically controlling our income through retirement through tax free distributions from the Roth. You also have estate planning. You probably talk all day about estate Planning and Roth IRAs, but essentially our heirs are going to receive these tax free as well as they may have to take those out over a 10 year period, but they are going to be tax free distributions. And we are real estate obviously oriented, podcast and firm. So I have to tie this into real estate. Having Roth qualified distributions again especially in retirement could definitely qualify you to take advantage of the passive activity loss allowance. I know we don't talk about that very much. We're very real estate professional status short term rental. But there is that passive TV loss allowance that allows you to take up to $25,000 from passive rentals assuming we actively participate and meet those requirements there. But we could play games then in terms of what is our AGI with the Roth distributions there and maybe if we do have some cash flowing rentals in retirement still be able to shelter that and take those losses from that rental portfolio to even further again downstream impacts, saving tax on Social Security, etc.
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A
It makes a lot of sense. It sounds like overall Roth is a pretty tax efficient vehicle overall, especially later on in life when you start to take this money money out or you're getting to estate planning. I know this is like a lot of people who listen to this show, a wide range of individuals. Some people are real estate purists who love all things real estate and won't touch retirement accounts. And then we have high income earners who love retirement accounts who listen to the show. So who is this for? Who should be considering this strategy?
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B
Yeah, yeah, great question. This, this mega backdoor Roth 401k strategy in particular is definitely going to be for the higher income earners or the super savers really either one. But definitely the high income earners who, who maybe already max out the employee elective deferral piece and want to put more into these qualified accounts and they have some surplus cash to do so. Solopreneurs. So whether that's you know, truly a schedule C filer or if you have an S corporation you paying yourself a W2 if you don't have really any employees, a Solo 401K is definitely going to be an option there for you to maximize this. It is really hard to do this. Who's it not for? It's really hard to do this. If you do have like a small business with employees, there's certain testing rules. We're not going to dive into those today, but there are certain testing rules where your plan has to be able to qualify to be able to do this. And with employees it makes it very hard to be able to maximize this as like the business owner, for example. And that's why you know, a lot of tech, right. W2s, a lot of, a lot of Dr. Pilot W2s where they have. Right. A lot of employees or big businesses, they're able to do this because those testing limits are going to be met and satisfied, essentially.
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Right.
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To allow them to do this. Or if you're a solo 401k, for example, you don't have any employees, you're not gonna have to worry about that as well.
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Makes a lot of sense. So this is a mega strategy, right? So mega often means better than just normal. So what makes this mega, right, versus just your typical 401k that many are familiar with.
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Yeah, great question. So the normal backdoor Roth IRA are. Right. That IRA contribution is always limited to 7,000 plus a $1,000 catch up if you're 50, 50 or older. And so really we're not talking about massive, massive dollars. Maybe husband, husband, wife or spouse is right. You know, Maybe we're talking 14, 15 grand a year here. We're talking about maybe getting potentially 30, 40 plus thousand into after tax Roth qualified account. So we are, you know, taking that potential small IRA contribution and making it mega, right? Making it mega. Making it a bigger contribution there.
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D
Okay, thank you for that explanation. Fantastic. So I guess who, who can utilize this? Who's it for? Like, like sometimes I, I've seen it my, like when I worked with clients, I know you worked with hundreds who can really benefit from this. Like would a high executive employee at a tech company, would they benefit from this? And if so, why?
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B
Yeah, yeah, great question. Absolutely. So this is one of my favorite conversations to have with those high, again those high income earning W2 employees. And, and maybe I didn't specify the, the exact ma. The max you could contribute to a 401k. So let me give you the, the example here. So, so we all know that 23,500 employee elective deferral piece, right? That's a pretax amount. We can take a tax deduction up to 23,500. We may get an employer match in there as well. Every company is a little different in terms of what that is, if they, if they have a match, etc. But the max we can actually contribute to a 401k plan, assuming that the plan allows for this, is $70,000. So we have, right, $70,000 cap, less what we've put in, less what our employer puts in. And we can make that up with an after tax contribution. And that's where the mega backdoor Roth 401k comes in is we're able to take that after tax contribution and put it into our own Roth qualified account there, whether it's with the 401k or if we're able to do an in service distribution actually out of the plan into our own Roth ira. So we're able to again size our after tax essentially Roth contributions. Let me give you an example. So let's say we make the regular 401k. We go up to that 23,500 pre tax, right. We take that, we're high income, we want to get that tax deduction. Our employer puts in 10,000. Okay, nice round number. That's what their match is. We'll do that for sake of math here. So we've put in, right, 33,500. Now I just mentioned our cap is 70,000. So we have $34,500 there of a spread between the two that we can make as an after tax contribution. And again what would happen is we can in service that right into our own Roth qualified plan in the 401k. Or we can in service distribution out into our actually own Roth IRA if the plan allows for you to do that.
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Okay, Alex, so let's think about the flow. So you mentioned like where the one might go. So essentially money goes into, it's an after tax contribution, right. Goes into the 401k, then goes from the 401k to a Roth IRA or another plan. Like I just want to make sure that like everyone understands where the flow of money is coming from. Right. Is that correct? Or how else would you break that down?
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Yeah, yeah. So the after tax contribution would stay in the plan and. Right. And it'd basically be recategorized to Roth inside of your existing 401k plan. That is one option. That's the in plan conversion. Now you do have that in service distribution option potentially if the plan allows, which would allow you to actually take that out of the plan and allow it to go put into your Roth IRA or You may want to, you know, self direct that. You may want to go put that into real estate, do whatever you want to do with it. That would be ideal. Not all plans are going to allow that, but that's how the flow of money is going to happen there.
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Nice. Okay, cool. I just want to break that down. And so why do we kind of care about that much money going to a Roth ira, right? I mean these people are making lots of money already, lots of high tech or business owners. Why do they want to shove more money into a Roth account? What's the benefit for them? I mean we talked about some of that earlier, but like for them specifically, why does, why would it apply? Help them out.
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Yeah. So as I mentioned, right, we're not going to get the tax deduction today. That is the after tax feature of the contribution itself. But it is going to give you a lot more flexibility down the road in terms of playing games with your income, in terms of maximizing your Social Security benefits and not having your Social Security go straight back to the government. Right. It is going to allow you to tax efficiently, pass on wealthier heirs rather than being traditional pre tax where they're going to get hit with a tax hit there as well that they may not expect. So there are all sorts of benefits downstream from having a sizable Roth account in your back pocket. Now again, this is not for everybody. Meaning if you are in aggressive rental portfolio growth mode, and that is how you're going to obviously realize tax benefits today, but obviously be tax efficient as you do it and expand that way, you know, your liquidity might want to go into rental real estate, which we do obviously advise pretty heavily on. If you're in a lower tax bracket, maybe you're a super saver. It still might not make sense to maybe put as much as you can into a Roth qualified account because you might actually be able to take advantage of just a normal brokerage account, meaning you're in a 0% long term capital gains rate bracket, your qualified dividends wouldn't be taxed.
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D
Right.
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So there's benefits there. If you're pursuing early, you know, that fire movement, if you will, pursuing, you know, financial freedom early, this probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense for you. So again, if you have excess liquidity, you know, if you want flexibility in retirement, if you want to pass on very tax efficient wealth to your heirs, or maybe if you just can't realize tax benefits right now from your real estate portfolio, these would all be right reasons to really maximize this option Here.
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Now that we understand the benefits of the Mega BackDoor 401k, why this all makes sense. So we went through like how it works for standard W2. How does this work for somebody who's maybe self employed, Maybe they have a 1099 or maybe they're in a partnership. What does that look like?
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Yeah, yeah, so, so great questions. And really that last example I was just focusing on, on one spouse, right? If you, if you have two high W2 income earning spouses, right? I mean you're talking about putting 69,000 plus into these rough Roth qualified accounts. What happens if you're a solopreneur? What if you're right? Solo 401k is an option. This is absolutely a heck of a strategy for you to maximize right after tax dollars into one of these plans. Now let me make it a little sweeter. What if you're a W2 employee, high earning, right, and you also run a business on the side? A lot of our clients do this, right? They have a W2, whether it's pilots, doctors, et cetera, right? Tech, tech employees that do consulting on the side. These are not. These two plans that you're going to have in terms of your employer and you being the business owner are not related, they're not a controlled group. And what that means is you're able to maximize both. Okay, so, so as a W2, you can go put them in that 23 5, right? Get pre, get your tax deduction, get the match from your employer and then make the after tax contribution up to 70,000. On the self employed business side of it, the consulting, right. The 1099 side of it, we can only do the employee elective piece once. So that 235 is a one time deal. However, what we have control over as a business owner over here is we can make the profit sharing contribution and then we can still have up to the $70,000 tax limitation or contribution limitation where we can make an after tax contribution up to that amount and we can double dip. So now instead of doing, you know, 34,000, we just more than double that yourself. And now we're doing, you know, 70,000 plus into after tax Roth qualified accounts. And you do that for the next 10, 15 years and let it grow on top of that, right? We haven't even added in the compounding factor of hopefully that money being invested. You are sitting on a sizable tax free nest egg which again, we already covered a lot of those benefits. But that is a substantial amount of money compared to just. Right. The normal backdoor IRA strategy that's often out there.
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Are you ready to unlock hidden tax savings within your real estate or business? As a national leader in specialty tax services for more than 25 years, Engineer Tax Services performed over 75,000 engineering based cost segregation studies, delivering more than $2 billion in measurable tax advantages to their clients. Why does cost segregation make so much sense? Because it's not just about taxes. It's making sure you put more money back to work in your business and fueling your next investment. You'll see increased cash flow, you, you'll see sped up roi. Plus you'll get clear insights into your property and support from an expert team. It's a simple process with big results and the smartest move for serious investors. If you're interested in learning more, you can contact Engineer Tax Services using the link in the show notes. That's it for now. We'll dive right back into today's episode. All right, to sum it up, The Mega BackDoor 401K Roth 401K allows you to do is basically build a substantial portfolio for retirement. Two questions that come to mind. The first one is what are the risks, if any, of doing this? This is a run of foul with anything the irs, if this was, you know, because I'm just thinking about this, right, like this isn't exactly very straightforward and out there for everybody. The IRS isn't advertising this, right? So what does somebody need to know from that angle about this?
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Yeah, yeah. So, so great question. Let's say you have multiple businesses, right? You're the 100% shareholder of multiple businesses or a partner in multiple businesses. You are going to be dealing with control group issues here. Meaning you might. We can't set up different plans for each one of your businesses and go do this exact strategy for each one of your own businesses. They have to be unrelated. They can't be again, in part of that control group. And there's a bunch of rules around those control groups. So even if it's not just you, right, if you have partners, but it's the same partners or whatever it may be. So essentially what, we're going to be limited as a business owner to one plan and then the W2 is going to be the other plan. I also should say, you know, Covid brought a lot of changes about in terms of remote work. Some people have 2, 3, 4, I think I've heard like 8 or 10, you know, W2 jobs. Right. Sitting at home. Right. Not that I'm endorsing that, but again, these are not control Groups, I mean usually they're unrelated entities that you're working for and you can do this for each like an unrelated party. Right. Plan that you're in. We just, if we're in a control group, we cannot write, have separate plans for, for things that we control.
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A
Okay, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. The second question that I have here, follow up is so again, you know, I've said this, I priced it this twice or three times in this episode. So I apologize for everybody who's going to hear me be redundant here. But a lot of people who listen to this show who just are not necessarily anti like retirement accounts per se, but they prefer other routes. What would you say to somebody, why should someone consider this versus just say, you know what, I'm not going to put my after tax dollars in any type of retirement account, whether it be 401k or otherwise. I'm going to take my after tax dollars and invest in real estate that is already tax advantaged. You know, if you've been tuning into this show for a long time, you know, all the tax benefits, what would you say to that person? Why would they consider this or should they even consider this if they are real estate like purist, so to speak?
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B
Yeah, yeah, this is, this is the push, a pull. You know, I'll be honest, you know, we're obviously biased towards real estate. So it's hard for me to be like, hey, don't go buy real estate. And that's usually what our main focus of our conversation is. But I always liken this back to I like tools in the tool belt. Right. There might be a year where rates spike up and it's hard to go find deals. Right. Or maybe we're so heavy into real estate now, it's time to diversify a little bit. So I always love to have tools in the tool belt, you know, to take advantage of, to have the, equipped with the knowledge, equipped with these types of strategies. Yes. Again, I'm very biased towards going in and building that real estate portfolio and get our tax breaks that way. But it doesn't, you know, we're not, we don't live in a perfect world and sometimes we need, you know, good quality backup options, backup strategies to go utilize.
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Yeah, okay, that makes sense. That makes sense. So this has been my philosophy for the longest time too. It's like there's nothing wrong with real estate, but sometimes you have to look just above and beyond real estate. Right. Sometimes there are reasons to have exposure to equities Right. And if you look at the people who went through Nvidia, for example, right. And invested in Nvidia and they got rich off Nvidia, you can't just ignore the equity side of the conversation. I think that's, that's, that's the first thing that someone who's a real estate purist would need to, that's like the first, the first thing you have to break. First you have to see, okay, do I even want to be in equities? Right. Do I want to be in these other, in the traditional asset classes? Right. And if you say yes, then we know that investing in retirement accounts is one of the most tax efficient ways to invest in equities and traditional assets. And then this way, this strategy is a way to really turbocharge that. That's why it's called mega, and really put that on fire, so to speak, like rocket fuel. Am I missing anything here?
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B
You know, that, that was well said and you know, we obviously don't give investment advice and we can't do that. But that, you know, these accounts, especially if you have again, the net worth that a lot of people do, especially if they're building like a real estate portfolio and this is the backup. Let's, let's say you can afford again, please consult a financial advisor for this piece. But you, you could be fairly aggressive in there to your point, right? Putting equities in there. I think the founder of PayPal put his PayPal stock in there and it's worth like multi, multi millions now. It might be worth billions. And he's got it in Roth account, right? You can invest in equities in there for the long term because again, these are great to pass on to heirs. They're going to greatly appreciate it if they inherit tax free, right. Qualified money rather than, you know, pre tax where, where you know, they're, they are going to get tax hits on that and might even push them up to higher tax brackets, etc. So if that's your one takeaway is like, how can I tax efficiently pass on money to my heirs because I have some excess liquidity here. This is again a great, a great backup, great option here for you.
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D
So someone that's listening to the podcast is listening so far we're getting pretty close to the end of the year. What rules and limitations are there for them to set this up? Do they need to do it right now? Could they wait till April 15th? What are those rules and limitations for them to think. Those who are thinking about executing the strategy.
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B
Yeah, yeah, so, so great question. So, so I always start with does your plan allow for this? Right. That, that's literally number one is can we make this after tax contribution Again, there's testing limits. I always start with let's reach out to hr, let's reach out to your plan sponsor. Let's figure out is this possible and if it's yes. Typically this time of year right towards year end is bonus, is bonus season. So we may need to utilize that bonus to make that after tax contribution so it comes out of your payroll that way. Now it does need to be made. To your point, a great question doesn't mean made in this year. You know, if we want to maximize it this year, it doesn't be made in this tax year. That is different from just like your IRA contribution. Right. That's due come tax time, you know, April 15th.
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D
Right.
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B
We have some time there. This does need to made this tax year. And so again if you're at year end, you have some excess liquidity, you know, real estate, short term rental, whatever it may be, might be hard, hard pressed to do this time of year. We want to get some money into that ROTH qualified account. Let's call your plan sponsor, let's get on the phone with them, let's email them, let's make sure it's possible. Let's figure out what that contribution is and how we're going to get that money right into that, into that qualified account.
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D
What about the business owners, Alex? What can they do?
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B
Yeah, yeah, so great question. Business owners, they will be slightly different. You have up until you file your tax return to make the after tax contribution to your plan. Right, the profit sharing contribution, et cetera. So business owners, solo 401k ers, you guys actually do have more time to make these contributions. But I would still argue let's not take too long, let's not wait up until, you know, extension deadline here to figure this out. Let's plan ahead and make sure we, we're on the ball here, making sure we know where our liquidity is going to go and make sure we're, you know, utilizing the capital to the best of our ability. Right. Whatever that may mean for you.
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A
So, so what I'm hearing here, Alex, if I'm, if, if I understand correctly, is that there's a lot of things that you need to consider if you're going to use a strategy. First you need to consider whether or not retirement accounts are free. Right. Then you need to consider, am I going to want to do the mega, the mega 401k or is it ready the 401k enough. If I'm going to do the mega, I need to understand control groups, I need to understand contribution limits, I understand timing and when all this makes sense. And then there's, you know, a few other factors you need to consider. Is this something that you would recommend someone, you know, figure out how to do on their own, or is this something that somebody should be working with, like a qualified tax professional to be able to kind of piece together the puzzle to see if this makes sense and if so, how to properly execute it so everything's done correctly and that they're not jeopardizing their tax savings or running afoul of any other rules of the irs.
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B
Yeah, yeah, so great question, great point. I would absolutely recommend, you know, consulting a tax advisor. Consulting a financial advisor. Right. We want to bring your team together and figure out what is the best use of your dollars that you have. Everybody has limitations on their capital and we're trying to figure out what is the best use of that. Obviously, we're biased towards tax savings. Right. But we have other considerations at play in terms of, you know, overall returns, estate planning. You know, there's other things to consider besides just tax planning. But bring the whole team together and let's make sure we get you right to the best place possible.
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A
You're saying that I shouldn't just go on ChatGPT, ask if Mega BackDoor, Roth 401K makes sense, and then just take its instructions and just go willy nilly with it? Is that what you're saying?
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B
That is, that is correct. That is correct.
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A
Okay. Okay. I'm just, just making sure. Just making sure. You know, this isn't, this is like many tax strategies, you don't want to just do it hastily, Right. You want to make sure it's done properly, all the T's are crossed or the eyes are dotted because there could be significant tax advantages here if done correctly and planned correctly. Like Alex mentioned in the beginning of the episode, between estate planning and managing your modified just across income and retirement, Social Security and all that, you want to make sure all this is kind of in sync and the puzzle is pieced together in a way that is strategic and makes sense. Right. And like Alex said too, while we are biased towards tax savings, tax savings is not the only part of this equation. When you're dealing with retirement accounts, you're dealing with family planning. Right. Because if you're going to contribute to retirement accounts, you need to understand what am I giving up by contributing these retirement accounts, you understand opportunity cost. Right. And investment allocation. Am I going to be. If I'm putting money in my 401k, then I'm not putting money in real estate unless I'm self directing that for 1K.
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D
Right.
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A
And does that even make sense? That's another whole nother question. So the point I'm trying to make here is that this is something that's a strategic tool belt's point and you want to make sure you have the right people on your team to help you navigate the situation. And it's not something you just want to listen to a podcast and go and just flat out execute. All right, so before we wrap this episode up here, are we missing anything on this strategy? What else do we need to consider or any key takeaways you want to highlight?
- [24:50]
B
No, I always, always appreciate having me on. It's always, it's always a blast being on here. Again, this is a, it is a niche, you know, topic here. It's kind of outside of real estate a little bit, but it is again, just is more tools in the tool belt. Right. The more dangerous you can be and just making sure. Right. We are. We're figuring out the whole picture and again, getting you to the best spot. Right. What's your future goals there? Making sure we achieve those.
- [25:10]
A
No, absolutely. And thanks for joining us today. This is an episode in an effort to bring you all the task strategies you could potentially use so you can go have a more informed conversation with your advisors and if and how this applies to your situation. So if you're not already have a cpa, on your team, I invite you to check the link in the show notes and book a discovery call with our team. We'd love to learn more about your situation and how we can help. So that'll be linked up in the show as well. And of course, Alex is on our team here at Hull cpa, so he's always advising clients on strategies just like this. So thanks again for joining us, Alex, Nate, any final words before we call this one a wrap?
- [25:44]
D
No. Alex, thanks so much for coming on and talking about this topic with everyone. I really think it's an opportunity like, like, like you guys all emphasized a bunch of times is it's all about what options can we provide ourselves and what is everyone's specific situation. And so that's a really fantastic way to present that. And so hey, if you want to work with Alex, it's a great way to do it.
- [26:03]
A
The techsmont Real Estate Investors podcast is for general information purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied upon for tax, legal or accounting advice. Information on the Podcast may not constitute the most up to date legal or other information. No reader, user or listener of this podcast should act or refrain from acting on the basis of the information on this Podcast without first seeking legal and tax advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction. Use of an access to this podcast or any of the links or resources contained or mentioned within the podcast show or show Notes do not create a relationship between the reader, user, or listener of the Podcast and the host, contributors or guests. Any mention of third party vendors, products or services does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation. You should conduct your own due diligence before engaging any vendor. For more information, reference the show notes or description of this episode.
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C
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