What if optimizing for AI output is actually slowing your company down? When code becomes nearly free to produce, the organizations still measuring productivity by output are solving the wrong problem.

In this episode, Mik Kersten, author of “Project to Product” and the forthcoming “Output to Outcome,” shares why the real challenge of the AI era isn’t generating more code — it’s building organizations that can turn that output into customer and business value. Drawing on Carlota Perez’s model of technological revolutions and the theory of constraints, Mik explains how AI has removed the output bottleneck that software organizations were built around, and where the new constraints now live.

He introduces three core models from the book — the outcome loop, the product operating model, and the outcome tree — as a framework for adapting how organizations plan, fund, and deliver value. Mik also addresses one of the most pressing decisions leaders face today: whether to cut headcount based on AI productivity gains, and why doing so without outcome visibility is a dangerous bet. The conversation covers how organizational structure, decision-making accountability, and leadership roles all need to shift — not just development practices.

Timestamps:

(00:00:00) Trailer & Intro
(00:02:40) What Makes Output to Outcome Different From Project to Product?
(00:05:02) Why Did Mik Write Every Word of This Book Without AI?
(00:08:18) How Do the AI Prompts at the End of Each Chapter Work?
(00:11:53) What Happens to Organizations When AI Makes Software Output 10 to 100 Times Cheaper?
(00:15:03) How Do Past Technological Revolutions Help Us Understand the AI Era?
(00:19:25) Is the Traditional Software Developer Role Gone for Good?
(00:23:30) Why Do Some Companies Experience an AI Productivity Paradox?
(00:27:47) What Does “Outcome” Mean in Outcome Management?
(00:31:50) Has the Product Operating Model Finally Become the Industry Norm?
(00:34:24) How Do You Apply the Cynefin Framework to Your Organization?
(00:37:18) Why Should AI Augment Human Decision Making in Complex Domains?
(00:40:52) Why Are AI-Driven Layoffs a Risky Bet Without Outcome Visibility?
(00:43:32) How Can Leaders Increase the Feedback Loop for Strategy and Budgeting?
(00:46:07) What Is the Optimal Organizational Structure for an Outcome Management Model?
(00:49:50) How Can We Apply Architectural Modularity to Organizational Design?
(00:53:17) What Are the Seven Shifts in the Output to Outcome Model?
(00:55:10) Will AI Make Middle Management Obsolete?
(01:00:55) 3 Tech Lead Wisdom

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Mik Kersten’s Bio
Dr. Mik Kersten is an independent technology strategist and creator of the Flow Framework, best known for his bestselling book Project to Product. He founded Tasktop and led it as CEO until its acquisition by Planview in 2022.
Mik began his career at Xerox PARC, where his team created the first aspect-oriented programming language. He then earned his PhD in Computer Science at UBC, pioneering the integration of software development and collaboration tools — work that laid the foundation for Tasktop and the field of Value Stream Management.
Today, he helps leaders shift from output-driven to outcome-driven operating models, enabling organizations to harness AI in a human-centric way.

Follow Mik:

LinkedIn – linkedin.com/in/mikkersten
Substack – mikkersten.substack.com
Preorder Output to Outcome - https://a.co/d/0aPlI2IF
Book’s Website – outputtooutcome.org

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