Transcript

George Saunders (0:02)

Tetragrammaton. Actually, honestly, the last few years, my whole intake has changed. I don't know if it's. Takes more time to do my work. I feel a little more delicate outside of it. Like, I'm a little more protective about what I'm listening. So I think when I was younger I was like, I got to hear everything, I got to read everything. And the last few years I'm like, eh, maybe you don't. Maybe, you know, can kind of be a little quieter. And I'm doing this, the substack, which is we do a story every two weeks. So that means pretty much I'm reading that story for two weeks, which shuts out a lot of stuff.

Interviewer (0:50)

How did the substack start?

George Saunders (0:52)

I wrote that book about the Russian short story. And then I just kind of enjoyed that there was a different modality.

Interviewer (0:58)

Swim in the Pond. I love that book.

George Saunders (0:59)

Yeah. Thank you. I'd been teaching all those years, you know, that Syracuse. And I came back from a tour and I had my first class and it was like the kids left and it's just like the chalk dust in the air. I'm like, I love this. I didn't. I always knew I liked it, you know, but I had this notebook that was like an accumulation of all the notes I'd taken and teaching those Russian stories over 20 years and nobody else could make any sense of it. It's just scroll. But I thought, you know, if I kick it right now, all that goes away. And it wasn't only me. It was all those generations of students that were giving me feedback. And so. So anyway, I wrote that Russian book and then really missed it when I was done and somebody said, would you like to do a substack? And I thought, yeah, I could do. Do it on story craft. Like, what is like always going back to, okay, forget everything, you know, what's a story really? And especially experientially, what is it? You know, so the whole idea of kind of which you explore in your book, like, what is the mind on art actually doing? And at some point when you watch what the mind on art is doing, it's what the mind is always doing. And so that opened the door for me as a kind of a working class person. So I had a real anxiety about art. Like that's the thing that everyone else can do, but I. I'm not smart enough. And somehow think of it this way, it's like, well, you. You can perceive. You can perceive your perceptions, you can adjust. You're an artist, you Know, like that.

Interviewer (2:21)

Is that the way you find out what you think through? Do you surprise yourself when you're speaking and come to understand your worldview?

George Saunders (2:29)

Summary

Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin

Episode: George Saunders
Date: February 4, 2026

Episode Overview

In this illuminating and profoundly honest conversation, Rick Rubin sits down with celebrated writer George Saunders to dive into the art and psyche of storytelling. The episode traverses Saunders’ evolution as a writer, his approach to creativity and teaching, struggles with anxiety and perfectionism, spirituality, and the roots and rhythms of his process. Expect deep craft insights, vulnerability, and plenty of laughter, as Saunders shares how meaning, authenticity, and presence emerge line by line, revision by revision.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Changing Creative Intake & Substack

On Intake and Selectivity:
- Saunders describes becoming more protective of his attention as he’s gotten older, reading less widely and valuing quiet—largely because of the demands of his Substack, where he analyzes one story every two weeks.
  
  “The last few years I’m like, eh, maybe you don’t...can kind of be a little quieter.” (00:17)
Genesis of Substack and Teaching:
- Inspired by his teaching, especially from A Swim in a Pond in the Rain, Saunders saw Substack as an extension of sharing his accumulated teaching and craft notes.
  
  “I had this notebook that was like an accumulation of all the notes...If I kick it right now, all that goes away...So anyway, I wrote that Russian book and then really missed it when I was done and somebody said, would you like to do a Substack?” (01:11)

The Nature of Creative Process & Revision

Stories Emerge From Reaction, Not Plans:
- Saunders emphasizes that the best writing comes from micro-choices and reaction, not from executing a preset worldview.
  
  “If I had to boil down creativity, I’d say it’s reaction.” (05:09)
  “The great idea is the one that allows you to grow it, you know, and it becomes a different idea.” (22:21)
- He likens creation to a “seed crystal”: small lines or images that spontaneously accrete into a story.
  
  “You put the seed crystal down and it kind of just spontaneously accretes outward. That’s the best case.” (07:40)
Anxiety & Permission in Art:
- Saunders openly discusses his chronic anxiety, particularly around artistic identity and permission to follow his instincts rather than literary models.
  
  “When I was younger I had that terrible lockup of like, which artist am I going to be?... Now I can kind of say, well, all that deciding is in the realm of conceptual thought, which can be helpful, but it can also kill you.” (06:14)
Editing as Part of Creation:
- He blurs the line between editor and writer; for him, writing is one long series of reactions and tweaks, not two separate parts.
  
  “At this point, I don’t really make much separation...Creativity actually happens...when I react to it with a pencil in my hand.” (05:09)
On Roadblocks and Avoidance Moments:
- Blocks in a draft are clues, not failures. He now looks at story “roadblocks” as the subconscious guiding him to deeper problems rather than just errors to fix.
  
  “If you fix one, it throws light on the other two...the subconscious is giving me a higher place to go on the mountain.” (27:28)

Teaching Creative Writing

Specificity and Trust:
- Both Rubin and Saunders stress the value of precise, non-prescriptive feedback.
  
  Rick Rubin: "The solutions turn out to be much better when I'm not suggesting them." (10:47)
- Saunders on editing:
  
  “A lot of the editing is...let’s pretend that my reader is actually 12% smarter than me, make cuts on that basis.” (11:17)
Wisdom Through Listening:
- For Saunders, wisdom as a teacher comes from listening and guiding, not dictating, and from learning over decades about the psychological states and avoidance patterns students bring.
  
  “The minute the student comes in...you think you're not good enough. Let's find out what flavor you think you're not good enough." (94:21–94:51)

The Role of Spirituality

Catholicism and Buddhism:
- Saunders’ spiritual journey moves from a “seriously beautiful Catholic experience” in Chicago to Tibetan Buddhism, seeing overlaps in ritual and empathy.
  
  “I practice Tibetan Buddhism...but...I’d already been a Buddhist before I knew what it was just from writing.” (13:02)
- On approaching characters with compassion:
  
  “Jesus was sort of a novelist in that sense, because he could approach this person that other people didn’t like...by contemplating them through revision I can find a way in.” (14:09)

Craft Principles and Literary Wisdom

Reaction as Creative Principle:
- Saunders and Rubin both relate writing (and music production) as a process of reacting: sentence-to-sentence for writing, move-to-move in music.
On Fiction vs. Nonfiction:
- Saunders finds fiction allows more honesty, complexity, and darkness than nonfiction, where he is loath to hurt real people’s feelings.
  
  “With fiction, I don’t feel that compunction...I can let the darkness and the kind of negative valences come in.” (34:25)
Presence, Rhythm, and Authenticity:
- Both agree that the best work (in any medium) has rhythm and presence that is felt, not strategized or fabricated.
  
  Rick Rubin: “Presence is someone truly inhabiting...almost as if who they are is no longer around and just this thing is appearing. I would call presence. Like God steps in.” (79:13)
On Causation and Plot:
- Causation in story is simply giving the reader information and responding to how it changes them.
  
  “Causality really is just the parts of the story being in alert communication with each other. That this part of this story has done something...” (101:44)
- He warns against overemphasizing plot or intellectual systems when writing.
  
  “Don’t worry about plot. That is a word that gives people a lot of conniptions.” (64:21)

Memory, Upbringing, and Humility

Upbringing:
- Shares comic and affectionate stories about his working-class family and experiences delivering chicken, seeing everyday diversity in the suburbs.
  
  “One of the things is, as a delivery guy, you got to stand in somebody’s house for a couple minutes...you were kind of told that the suburbs were homogeneous. But then...oh wow, this is a really...It’s a city, you know.” (47:26)
Critical Moments in Life:
- Tells stories of formative feedback early in his music and academic experiences that directed him toward humility and writing.
  
  “He leaned away and he said, I’m going to tell you something. He said, if you don’t change the way you’re living, you’re going to be a very unhappy adult...” (51:01)
Teaching Philosophy & Empathy:
- His current teaching lauds emotional honesty and encourages students not to fear sentiment or imperfection.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Story/Creation

“I crank out some crap this morning, doesn't matter what, tomorrow I look at it and I react to it with a pencil in my hand. That seems to me where creativity actually happens.” (05:09, George Saunders)
“If you revise enough, I mean, what are you revising from your own stuff? So I think a lot of young writers, and I certainly did, get locked up on this idea of what's my great idea. I need a great idea. And you won't get one because there's no such thing.” (21:57, George Saunders)
“I love that God steps in. And, like, in writing terms, there is a corollary because if...I'm present as a person...the idea and the sentence and boom, they're just there.” (79:13, George Saunders)

On Teaching

“If I go on tour and I get a bad review, I'm flinchy. If I get a good review, I'm confident. So sometimes I even will be a little overconfident just so...lure them [students] out a little bit.” (97:00, George Saunders)
“You think you're not good enough...Let's find out what flavor you think you're not good enough. And then I'm gonna do some judo and I'm gonna show you that the thing you aren't good at is actually a unity with the thing you're good at.” (94:21–94:51, George Saunders)

On Revision and Rhythm

“It's everything. So like, sometimes there'll be a sentence, they'll go like, da, da, da, da, da, da. Like, yech. That last part. Lop that off...the correct rhythm will present and then words will come in to fill that.” (41:56, George Saunders)

Timestamps for Important Segments

01:11: On how Saunders’ Substack came to be, transition from teaching.
05:09: Creativity as reaction; anxiety and the role of revision.
10:42: Specificity and trust in teaching and feedback.
13:02: Saunders’ spiritual practice and its link to writing.
21:53: The myth of the ‘great idea’; generative vs. prescriptive writing.
27:10: Roadblocks in writing as positive signals.
34:29: Fiction as a more truthful medium than nonfiction (for Saunders).
41:56: The importance of rhythm in prose.
79:13: Presence and “God steps in” in creative moments.
94:21–94:51: Insecurities of young writers and the central lesson of craft instruction.

Episode Tone & Flow

This episode is marked by generosity, warmth, and candor—Saunders’ humility and self-awareness are matched by Rick Rubin’s thoughtful, gently probing questions. Their rapport toggles between quiet meditative moments and exuberant laughter. Whether you’re a writer, artist, or an aficionado of creative process, Saunders offers hard-won wisdom on navigating doubt, teaching and being taught, and the mystery at the heart of storytelling.

Further Resources

A Swim in a Pond in the Rain (Saunders’ craft book on Russian short stories)
George Saunders’s Substack (for in-depth story analyses)
Tetragrammaton Podcast archives

For anyone seeking to understand the hidden mechanics of great stories—and why they move us—this conversation is a masterclass in process, intuition, and human connection.