Discussion Participant/Interviewer (2:51)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (2:53)

The government is out of options. And that the industrial system that we have grown to basically embrace over the last. Since the 1900s GDP is, we have an inflationary system that is basically heading towards a deflationary system run by AI with a monetary base unit of Bitcoin, which in my opinion is the only monetary asset that can work in a system of deflation. So what we're seeing is these systemic fractures that are happening across society. And you can see it even socially with the cultural wars. I think that they're becoming more frequent, which you can essentially equate back to the vibration that you're discussing about. And it's becoming more noticeable by even the everyday individual.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (3:46)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (3:47)

So I think society as a whole is starting to wake up to the idea that something's wrong. The financial markets certainly are. I mean, correlations are breaking down across the board. Historical norms that have basically been in place for decades, even generations, are no longer holding up. You know, I think we have a potentially real crisis on our hands. And you know, I spend a lot of time thinking, I think you have young kids, I have a three year old. And as a father during this stage, early child development, you start thinking more about what the future is going to hold for your child. So a lot of my work and effort has been basically focused around a transition.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (4:35)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (4:36)

What is the transition going to look like from an inflationary system to, to a deflationary system? How do we avoid all the issues with the fourth turning and what are the issues like the death and destruction entering into another World War II scenario or before that a civil war and before that the revolutionary war. Right, but now we're in a, at a global scale with different types of weapons. Right. That can ultimately end society. So my thought process has been I look at Bitcoin as a tool for self sovereignty, but also a tool to be utilized potentially or designed to help us transition through this system. But to your point, the vibrations are getting more violent and I think they're becoming undeniable by even the average person across the board.

Marilyn Hoddle (5:33)

Yeah, I mean outside of the culture wars and the social incohesion, which seems obvious, I think one sort of anecdotal data point or data points that I've really leaned on over the last two, three years specifically are the selfie videos of people sitting in their cars complaining about a myriad of different things, whether it's the grocery bill, health insurance, car insurance, the inability to afford a house in the first place. I mean those are accelerating. And who knows if they're just sort of attention grabbing things that people are trying to leverage on TikTok to get sympathy or feel like their voice is being heard or get some attention. But I feel like it's very clear that I do think there's signal there in the sense that people are really feeling the burden of the economic pressure and this gap between the rich and the poor accelerating. But in terms of systemic vibrations like within the system, what specifically are you looking at? I mean, you mentioned Mallers earlier this week talking about austerity doesn't work in the context of Argentina. Obviously. The treasury just opened up a swap line with them for $50 billion to sort of lessen the blow the austerity that they've implemented throughout the country over the last few years. What else are you looking at?

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (6:58)

Well, I think you just highlighted the. The micro and the macro.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (7:01)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (7:02)

And you know, again, I go back to what I've been saying is I listen a lot. So. And then I take more of a theoretical approach to being like the system, the money's broken. So the incentive structures are distorted and misaligned across society. You know, I mean, because the money's broken, the average American, it's more difficult also with the regulatory environment to start a new job for the average American. I'm not talking about in the digital economy where individuals that are resourceful can basically whip up a business in a couple days and get network effects. But in the real world, it's difficult. And I see that with family members, I see that with friends and the rest of society. I spend a lot of time focusing on kind of the convergence of AI and Bitcoin, as I indicated. But we have this amazing tool in front of us basically with AI, and I use it a lot. I use it a medium for me that has never really been one that I've utilized, has been writing. But I use AI for my writing. You know, that's. And that's not lost on me, but the importance of that is the fact that I can throw ideas into its system and I can have active conversations with it and then I can start connecting the dots on various things.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (8:35)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (8:36)

But if you look across the fabric of society right now, you know, from my perspective, I'm seeing distortions. I can't really put a finger on exactly those distortions, but you kind of see them day in and day out. It doesn't matter where you look.

Marilyn Hoddle (8:52)

Yeah. And to your earlier point about the federal government, the Fed, treasury being backed into a corner and really having no other option than to send it on Turbo and the base, everything.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (9:06)

Well, I think we're heading to a wartime economy, right. I mean, the Defense Department basically just Change their name to the War Department. Do I think it's going to lead to kinetic warfare? It could, but I think what we're doing is we're creating that sense of patriotic. Luke talked about it a little bit in his macro podcast that he did. But I think we're heading towards more of a bifurcated world.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (9:32)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (9:33)

Nobody's buying our debt. Europe's in a very difficult situation. I think they're technically functionally broke. So in order to kind of solve their economic woes, they're going to have to go to war. And that seems to be where they're heading. And that leaves the US In a pretty interesting predicament. So, of course we have our allies across the world in various countries, and we'll continue to protect them with those alignments. But I think the US Is heading towards. Looks to be heading towards a direction where it's going to. We're going to have bifurcated economic zones where it's going to be Western hemisphere versus Eastern, and we're going to have to work together because we're still going to have trade. But I think the US Is going to potentially stop meddling with other countries geopolitical wise and start focusing on cleaning its own house and its own hemisphere. So that's why I see different things happening. And Panama to Mexico to Canada to Argentina to now Venezuela, you know, we're adding additional pressure to Brazil. I think what we're doing is trying to clean house in the Western Hemisphere. But these are all part of that vibration.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (10:48)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (10:49)

Is basically we're seeing movements that haven't historically happened that are happening now again with more frequency.

Marilyn Hoddle (10:59)

Yeah. And then domestically, look at like the industrial policy that Trump's gone after. I was just pulling it up. Speaking of using AI, just doing some deep research here on the go. But Trump's taken equity positions in semiconductors, energy companies, critical minerals companies, took a golden share quote, unquote, golden share in U.S. steel under its acquisition by Nip and Steel. So it seems like that the push to re industrialize the homeland is. Is there, I guess that's my question is can they actually do it successfully? Like, can the federal government pick the winners and losers in this re industrialization and manifest a good outcome?

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (11:43)

I think, I think if they have a sense of where they need, where we're heading.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (11:47)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (11:47)

If they know that AI is going to be revolutionary, from my perspective, to the degree I think it will be for humanity, I think it's pretty easy. You're just investing up and down the supply chain.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (12:01)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (12:02)

And trying to control those resources. Now, do I think that's ethical or where the government should be? No, but again, it goes back to the whole idea that we're in a wartime economy.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (12:17)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (12:17)

And that war is to be first. The war is basically over monetary base layer and kind of the reconfiguration of that, which is going to be a delicate matter, but it's also around securing resources that we need for not just our economy, domestic economy, but for, also for defense.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (12:39)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (12:39)

And I don't know how much longer we can go with getting materials from China without a solidified kind of trade agreement.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (12:52)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (12:53)

And that seems to be up and down with how the administration basically has been kind of conveying that information to the public for, for several months now.

Marilyn Hoddle (13:03)

Yeah, yeah, it's very positive because I mean, particularly juxtaposed to China, if you look at the head start that they have at the base layer, I would even put this below money or actually, no, it's right above money, which is energy. Like that's, that's where I could see.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (13:19)

The.

Marilyn Hoddle (13:21)

The big hurdles coming is in the energy sector in terms of just simply not having the grid infrastructure, the transmission infrastructure in place, actually manifest the, the scalable artificial intelligence boom in the United States.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (13:37)

Agreed.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (13:37)

I mean, I think it was worked with AI on it. Eric Grace commented on it the other day. I said it was going to be about $2 trillion for my research in public infrastructure investment. It's going to have to happen on behalf of the government. So he corrected me and basically said actually if you run the numbers from a different vantage point, it's going to be close to $3 trillion just to.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (14:04)

Get.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (14:07)

The grid up to where it needs to be without sacrificing kind of the domestic residential side. So we're talking some really big numbers.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (14:16)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (14:18)

And we're also talking about having to do it at a very high paced speed, which I don't know if our economy is tooled to do so at this point.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (14:30)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (14:30)

Again, it kind of plays into the wartime economy.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (14:34)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (14:35)

I think there will end up being mandates that basically say this is the direction in the country we have to go and it's about survival, we have to win this race. So I'm not too much of a geopolitical, this is just armchair. But I certainly have some thoughts. But I think it's a global AI race and we have to win. And I think what we're seeing is the US government basically getting us ready to secure the Western hemisphere and kind of retool our economy so that we we can do that.

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Marilyn Hoddle (15:57)

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Marilyn Hoddle (16:54)

Yeah, I guess this is a good segue into the monetary aspect of it. I mean transitioning from industrial sort of industrial policy in terms of Making sure that we have the physical critical infrastructure in place. Obviously the US Dollar has been the reserve currency of the world. We've used that to our advantage over the last 50 years, specifically 54 years since we ripped the dollar off the gold Standard officially in 1971. And obviously the veracity of the US dollars, the Reserve currency, is coming into question as we've gone into 37, almost $38 trillion of debt. I think I saw yesterday that we added 60 billion in a couple of days earlier this week to the deficit. And there's sort of two things that play. You have that physical industrial policy, then it seems very clear if you have more than two brain cells, just looking at what the priorities were the first nine months of this administration, that really rejiggering the monetary protocol and monetary system that we've leveraged for years is a very high priority.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (18:11)

It's actively breaking down.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (18:12)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (18:12)

And we can see that in the bond offerings. We can see it by them moving duration from the long end to the front end.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (18:20)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (18:20)

And coming in and essentially continuing Yellen's strategy.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (18:28)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (18:28)

And I think it's because they're out of, they're out of options. On top of that, you can see it from Jay Powell, right? His, the market's reaction to his 50 basis point increase last year. Whether you agree with it or not, the bond market moved in the, the wrong direction.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (18:47)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (18:48)

His most recent cut bond market, basically it's kind of been flat over the last year, but it basically again moved in the wrong direction.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (18:57)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (18:57)

So I think the, the Fed has essentially been, in my opinion, my framework has been neutralized. It's not functional anymore to the way that it historically should be. And I'm sure there could be professional economics that would argue differently. But at least from my framework, the, again, going back to this, correlations breaking down, you know, and the systemic vibrations that we're starting to see that Luke was alluding to with being like a kind of a bond revolt and potentially sacrificing the bond market at expense of kind of saving the system or pivoting to a new system, I think that's essentially the gender direction we have to go. We have to come up with other solutions. And I think that we're starting to, to get. I tend to try to read the tea leaves, at least through my framework with some of the ideas I'm throwing out there and not only try to make them logical, but also have them fit in what I'm viewing in the news or through the administration or through ideas that Individuals such as yourself or Jack are basically putting out there and kind of how I started coming up with some of the theories I'm putting out there now.

Marilyn Hoddle (20:15)

Yeah, and I'm just pulling up this Porter Stansberry thread from yesterday. I thought he made a really good point to your point about the system breaking down and pulling the Fed into it. Specifically I think that the fact that many of decisions that are made at the Federal Reserve and the treasury are based off of completely manipulated economic data, particularly inflation, is really what has backed him into a corner and makes them unable to actually implement policy that could turn things around. If you're setting the fed funds rate using the Taylor rule above what CPI is telling you inflation is like you're, you're using the wrong metric to base that that rate off of.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (20:57)

It's getting tough to be a traditional economist.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (21:00)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (21:01)

Like you can't make the arguments like you used to like, I mean, who. Somebody came out yesterday and commented.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (21:11)

His.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (21:11)

Name'S gonna escape me. It's. He's on CNBC a lot. Emir.

Marilyn Hoddle (21:17)

Do you know Amir?

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (21:20)

Yeah. Well, here's the mustache. He looks like he's maybe Turkish.

Marilyn Hoddle (21:25)

Oh, you mean Mohamed El Aryan.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (21:28)

Correct. And you know he put a post out there as just reforming or strengthening the argument that J.P. morgan put out, basically calling Bitcoin the deflation trade or the debasement trade.

Marilyn Hoddle (21:41)

Debasement trade, yeah.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (21:43)

But he's been a historically very strong traditional tradfi type of economist and even he's starting to change his tune.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (21:55)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (21:57)

So yeah, it's again going back to the vibrations. People can't ignore it anymore.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (22:04)

Yeah.

Marilyn Hoddle (22:04)

I'm just going to pull up this Porter thread because I thought it was really good. I read this on my flight back yesterday, but diving into this, he does some great work.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (22:14)

Yeah.

Marilyn Hoddle (22:15)

And to your point on Muhammad El Iran, he's been a bitcoin hater and it's funny, he was referencing a JP Morgan like analyst report. I guess they, they polled their customers at JP Morgan like why are you allocating the bitcoin? And they were relaying that information and both JP Morgan and Muhammad Ella Iran, who have both been pretty bearish on bitcoin for well over a decade, sort of had to admit like people are, we may not deem it to be the perfect alternative, but many others, our clients see it that way. And to the point about this is exactly why it's because whether it's the fact that people explicitly understand this or just intuitively feel it, which I feel like the latter is the Case for most people, they just intuit it. But I think this point here about the Fed not being able to make good decisions in plain English, he just explained the Taylor Rule. It's 2% plus the current inflation rate. Using official CPI, the Taylor Rule prescribes the current 4.75% fed fund rate. However, if you use actual inflation, the Taylor Rule would set short term rates at 17.5%. So you just have this complete mispricing of risk and money.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (23:38)

Risk and money. Correct. Well, I mean, if you want it, take it from a bitcoin lens. I mean, if you look at what Saylor's doing, he's developing a bitcoin yield curve and right now he's currently trying to figure out in price where his stretch product is right now. Granted you have some nuances with the fact that the market doesn't yet completely understand what he's trying to do or value the collateral appropriately. So there's some perception issues, but he's currently at what, ten and a quarter, 10.5% on the stretch product. And I think that ultimately is kind of establishing a bitcoin yield curve where he's establishing the cost of money right where it ultimately should be within the economic framework of where we might be heading to. And that plays right into the, the Taylor Rule with truflation being, you know, upwards of 15%. Yeah.

Marilyn Hoddle (24:42)

And as we're speaking, Bitcoin's running towards 122.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (24:46)

And.

Marilyn Hoddle (24:49)

I guess let's get into like this, this, this two part series that you've written so far on stablecoins, bit bonds, bitcoin and sort of this, the silent coup that is going on behind the scenes.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (25:02)

Yeah.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (25:03)

And I respect a lot of the work that you and your team do. And I've also give a shout out to burn the Fed because he also has a similar type of approach. I love the storytelling aspect that you guys do and how it hits not only educational, but it hits from an emotional standpoint to people. So what I look to do is kind of replicate that in the writing that I'm doing, which I set in the parameters to keep it kind of stoic, but I want to make it almost storytelling, but trying to tell how we got there. So that's why I started with the Prelude and then moved into part one and then part two. I'll be issuing something over the next two weeks, specifically on bitbonds, at least from my framework and how I look at it because I think everybody looks at it a little differently. I really started to kind of Connect the idea. When Andrew Owens talked about it in D.C. in December or January this past year, I really started kind of diving into what the implications of this new product was. And as I started, I took the white paper that they developed with Matt Pines and threw it into AI started having a bunch of conversations about it and then I just of sat on.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (26:27)

It for a little bit.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (26:29)

We moved into kind of the, the May time frame and I kind of picked it up and started revisiting it again. And then I heard some rumblings about 21 coming out and I was like, all right, well, if I'm the US Government, I'm not going to be able to essentially issue big bonds out of the treasury because we're going to have political issues. So I kind of connected the dots of being, well, you have 21, you have Kenneth Fitzgerald, who's a primary, and then you have Softbank and Tether. It seems like a pretty interesting union. And I kind of started diving a little deeper into my thoughts and frameworks around that. And I'm like, this seems like this would be the perfect entity to essentially do like a bitbond pilot and kind of bypass any political issues with Congress. And from that I kind of put out a short tweet and Dark and Puncher kind of jumped on it. And basically that's where I started the framework of exploring more in depth what the significance of bit bonds would be, not necessarily through a 21 angle, but more from what could it be if the treasury houses it inside at some point, ultimately, what would that structure look like? Started kind of playing around with the idea of a sovereign monetary flywheel or sovereign flywheel throughout the summer. And that's when certain interviews came out, like Tucker Carlson with Richard Werner, that added a whole nother layer. Then we had the stablecoin bill come out, right? And we started getting more insights into what that structure was going to look like that they were going to be investable for. I think inside 93 day T bills, right? You start overlaying what the set's looking to do by basically moving duration to the front end, and you still see that we have fiscal dominance. You also understand that we have this buildup that has to happen. Three to two to three trillion dollars is going to have to happen for AI and you see a lot of demand coming to the front end, right? So at which point that started adding a whole nother layer into formating the kind of sovereign flywheel to which then an idea was populated based off of Richard Werner's work by Dr. Pippa Malgram and she basically positioned the stablecoin act as a workaround by the treasury of the Fed. So in her argument she was stating that effectively by putting issuing a stable coin that's fully reserved, it moves the individual ahead of the banks kind of in the, the latter, the waterfall effect in case something goes wrong, which I thought was a really interesting concept. So that's, that was kind of, I waited a while for that all to kind of start taking shape. And then I think I had a pretty good basis for which I could really start working on this piece and theory and kind of push into the, the sovereign flywheel, mechanical aspect. Because again, going back to what I was saying earlier, I'm trying to spend a lot of time thinking about what the transition could be and what those levers would be. And that's once I had the concept out around stablecoins.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (30:17)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (30:17)

And putting the dollar on digital rails and being able to essentially push it out across the world, you know, from a digital standpoint kind of drive follow the dollars brand. Basically the fact that it's kind of the King Fayette versus all other fiats throughout the geopolitical landscape and the fact that you can get around capital controls essentially because now that you have Starlinks or other systems, it becomes easier. They can stop a good portion of it, but they can't stop it all. Technology will always find a way. I started this whole framework that basically the fact that you have a digital dollar and you have the technology to transport it to every mobile phone in the entire world, you're taking it from a macro to a micro from a liquidity standpoint and there's power in that. And what essentially does that end up supporting? Well, kind of supports the idea of a eurodollar 2.0 almost or a petrodollar 2.0. But what is that skid? It basically oils the skids for a whole digital asset ecosystem.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (31:45)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (31:45)

Because it's, it's, it limits once you have the stablecoin in place.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (31:50)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (31:50)

Basically the friction between stable coins and Bitcoin almost becomes minute. So it's, it's, it's easy to go back and forth. And then I started kind of putting the framework together is if you look at the administration between the SBIR and more importantly around the investments around the Trump family, that's making in, into this ecosystem and some of the actions with the sec, especially around this ecosystem, I think it's not just campaign promises. I think it's strategic in nature.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (32:24)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (32:25)

So at least that's from the Lens I'm looking at it from. So when you start viewing it as the administration's making inroads into this, you have strategic alignments with companies around an innovator like Jack Mahlers, but you have basically Cantor, right? And Cantor itself is highly integrated into this ecosystem. You have Tether, which is basically the base layer right now, liquidity layer for kind of the digital ecosystem. And basically you have SoftBank, which is basically funded our entire technology infrastructure via the carry trade for the last 20 years. And they also have their own systemic kind of demographic and debt issues. You can start formulating an idea of how does it all come together and what could that mechanism be. And that's basically where I threw in the next idea, which was, all right, you have the stablecoins and you have. Which is the liquidity layer, and then you have Bitcoin as the neutral reserve asset. Luke Gorman talks a lot about neutral reserve assets and how important they are. And ultimately that's what the next monetary system is going to be based off of. And you could argue that the east is moving more towards gold, and there's a lot of reasons for that, but it certainly looks like the west is moving more towards a digital sound money to kind of grease the tracks here, per se. So once we got. Once I got that concept together, I then kind of looked for how do we. Because Bitcoin seems to have a lot of positive feedback loops from a monetary perspective. You could also argue it has a lot of ethical feedback loops. But we needed to figure out a way to connect the asset side, the sbir side of the balance sheet to the debt.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (34:35)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (34:36)

And bit bonds were the perfect transition point, basically to help feed that whole system. And then you can start a positive feedback loop, basically using the stable coins as liquidity.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (34:47)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (34:47)

And one of the important framings also was the fact that the idea that at some point they're going to front load the front end. And ultimately it looks like they're heading towards yield curve control. And stable coins are an easy outlet for our method for them to do that. We're a couple months away from, in my opinion, the administration's going to basically kind of neuter the Fed. And when that happens, this transition will be a hell of a lot easier.

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Marilyn Hoddle (36:49)

TFTC I was going to say the because we backed Andrew in Battery Finance from 1031 years ago. And I think the thing where you're talking about like bit bonds and at the macro level, but at the micro level too. It's one thing that we sort of recognized many years ago when we first backed battery is that you have this ability to manufacture the soft landing that Janet Yellen and many others talked about years ago, but via bitcoin in structured credit. And so in the example of battery you have bitcoin sitting in a structure with another asset, typically real estate and sort of de risk that credit structure because you're not as worried about the debasement of the currency and your fixed income not being worth much because it's going to be compensated for in the value creation that bitcoin recognizes over the course and the duration of that loan. So you sort of have the de risking of this private credit product. And I think what you're describing is the mechanisms of how it will work at the federal level.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (38:10)

Yeah. So what happens? The critical point that I came up, I finally ended at was the fact that by putting the neutral reserve asset that's backed by absolute scarcity on the balance sheet and then harnessing the volatility of that asset to help restructure the debt through bit bonds, through volatility harvesting ultimately causes this self reinforcing. Because the important part is when I was going through it with AI and the revolution, what is Saylor's issue? Saylor's issue right now, at least the arguments that were being made was he's basically using the ATM ultimately to basically pay the interest on his preferreds. Whether you call that an issue or not, there's a perception there. I think he gave a great answer two weeks ago as to what his solution was for that. But it got me thinking. Well, what happens, the US government doesn't have that issue because the bit bonds are going to be US denominated.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (39:35)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (39:36)

So ultimately you could essentially print the coupon for the Bitcoin, the monetization of the bitcoin volatility associated with the bit bonds, and basically keep the Bitcoin permanently in the strategic reserve.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (39:57)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (39:57)

And once you do that and you continue to restructure. Now granted, over time the market is probably going to require some sort of bitcoin kind of payout. But until that moment happens, you basically can start this engine that allows you to basically start really ramping up by using the scarcity of the bitcoin on the SVR and basically locking the bitcoin away forever at an infinite duration because you'd never have to monetize. Now, I think there's going to be other structures that come up similar to what you're talking about. I think if the US government would ever single, even if they did it through kind of a 21 as a pilot program, that this is potentially happening. It signals that Bitcoin's essentially pristine collateral.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (40:57)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (40:58)

And once that perception happens, there's going to be a rush to basically structure Bitcoin and harvest its volatility in every conceivable method that Wall street has. Just because you're basically rebasing.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (41:17)

From the.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (41:17)

US government's perspective, you're rebasing its fiat liabilities against absolute scarcity.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (41:23)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (41:24)

While keeping the scarce asset on your balance sheet in a bubble that works well for the U.S. government. But imagine when Wall street with the deepest capital market starts doing the same thing and structuring it into portfolio products, or structuring into corporate debt, or structuring it with real estate, similar to what you've been talking about or what Grant Cardone's talking about. At these increasingly longer durations, it becomes a superpower. That's when we hit essentially a reflexive equilibrium, that second portion of the S curve. And I think it comes with, when the mindset shifts with investors and the general pop or Wall street, that this is a superior collateral, pristine collateral, that the world's ever seen. And I was listening to the Peter Dunbar's talk last night on the what Bitcoin did podcast, and he had a segment in there about bit bonds and he kind of opened it up and I like the framing of it. He's like, the world doesn't have a debt problem, we have a collateral problem. And that point resonates because it makes a lot of sense, Right. Going back to the vibrations and the distortions. It's an inflationary system. It's run by debt. We need to find base layer collateral. And whether that's gold or bitcoin. And ultimately bitcoin will win because it beats gold on every single one of its characteristics.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (43:01)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (43:02)

It's just a matter of time. And in my opinion, Bitcoin's already won. It's just how do we leverage it and use it against this absolute scarcity to kind of realign incentives across society?

Marilyn Hoddle (43:17)

Yeah. To your point about this reflexive tipping point, I think what Saylor's doing, if bit bonds ever get out the door, Obviously you mentioned 21. We're at the very beginning stages. And to your point about, it's very clear, it went from implicit to explicit over the course of this year. The Trump administration basically wants to neuter the Fed and bring everything in house to the Treasury. I think that in and of itself will have well inside a reflexive tipping point. Because you're like, who owns the Fed? The commercial banks? And you're sort of cutting them out of the situation and they're going to have a sink or swim moment where they're almost forced to adopt similar strategies, begin using bitcoin as pristine collateral. I don't think many people are factoring that in.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (44:10)

I don't think many people are ready for that. But if you look from a regulatory perspective, it's certainly where we're heading.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (44:16)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (44:17)

You look at the comments that JP Morgan put out yesterday, the day before. The market's waking up to this. The wave is coming, it's just how fast once it gets here, what's the exponentiality associated with it? And I think we're going to have ups and downs. I do believe the cycle theory is dead. I think that the market, especially if some of these ideas that we're kind of exploring come to fruition, it is the end game for the inflationary monetary system and it has to be because the debt based system can't operate in a deflationary world that's driven by AI.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (45:04)

Right?

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (45:05)

So yeah, the important part, if you looked at the, the monetary flywheel, the sovereign flywheel is the structure of a bit bond is, you know, I, I think you posted something about negative yielding debt and you know, I think that you posted something yesterday about that and what big bonds do or any type, anytime you want to incorporate Bitcoin, because all you're doing is you're harvesting the volatility of its annual CAGR into a debt structure and you're attaching it to a fiat debt structure, right? And you're trying to realign the incentives. That's all we're doing is in the case of a bit bond, the U.S. government can borrow 1 or 2%, right? And the investor gets basically the principal protection plus their 1 or 2%. And over the life of the duration, whatever that is, say it's a 10 year and you're at a 35% CAGR. Say it's a 2080 split between Fiat and Bitcoin and say that the split with the US government's a 50, 50, you're looking at an incentive of anywhere 15 to 18% tax free back right to the investor at the end. So now you're starting to get real returns back. So the government can basically get its 1 or 2% borrowing rate, but the investor can get its 15 to 18% return. And that's why I think it's important, and Darkside's discussed this a couple times about how the cost of money significantly higher, you alluded to it earlier where it should be from a society standpoint. So I think the way we need to look at this is if you look at Bitbond and Bitcoin as transitionary tools, it's going to help society basically converge to whatever that natural cost of money is over time as Bitcoin's volatility on a CAGR perspective decreases as it gets more integrated into society.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (47:26)

Right? So.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (47:29)

Ultimately I think the cost of money should be 10% right or higher. But how do we get there and how do we ease society into achieving that? Without ripping itself apart.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (47:42)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (47:42)

And I think the mechanisms or ideas behind bit bonds or the, the bitcoin harvest volatility harvesting mechanisms is a great way for us to do that.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (47:55)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (47:55)

Again, rebasing fiat debt against absolute scarcity.

Marilyn Hoddle (48:00)

Well, let's dive into that a bit more from a social cohesion perspective. You think this is one of the only paths to make sure that we get on the other side of this Fourth, turning this inflection point, whatever you want to call it, with relatively, relatively low conflict, kinetic conflict, from my perspective.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (48:21)

Yeah, I do. As to how it plays out into what variations, like how it's introduced into what variations it's like. It doesn't have to be the way I've outlined it.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (48:35)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (48:36)

Various people have various ideas about it, and I think it's generally directionally correct. You know, I received some feedback from Luke Gorman.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (48:52)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (48:52)

And his feedback was, well, how do. How does this work with the rest of the world?

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (48:57)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (48:58)

How do. How does. What stops this process from hyperinflating the dollar against bitcoin? And, you know, my, my thought back, my thought was, well, it's the speed at which you issue the bit bonds. You don't do it all at once.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (49:11)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (49:11)

And then he came back with, how does this work, basically with trade issues.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (49:18)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (49:19)

But between China and, you know, the rest of the world, where we're having deficits and surpluses.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (49:25)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (49:25)

And we're on the wrong side of that, the coin there. And I can't necessarily answer that question. You know, it goes back to some of the thoughts and work that's been done by Ducker, Dr. Pippa Malgram, which talks about the three pillars and her pillars. It's basically controlling the money, having technology and having control of kind of the power. To your point that you said earlier, and this is speculation on my part, but I ultimately think that potentially the US Government has superior military advantage. And I think there's probably stuff that we don't realize that they have. In one of my posts this week, I was kind of feeling feisty and I was joking. You've heard discuss or throwing a toss back to Independence Day. Like, you don't think a toll seat costs $20,000, do you?

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (50:22)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (50:23)

And how many audits do we continue to fail if that's the case? Well, we know nuclear war is not an option because of mutual assured destruction.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (50:35)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (50:36)

But we have to work together from an economic. Because demographics are bad, even with our trading partners, whether it's on the front end of the demographic curve or the back end.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (50:46)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (50:47)

So everybody's kind of in this really crappy economic situation across the world. And people of course will argue with that, but I think there's incentive to work together. But even if there wasn't, and there was an issue with, from a kinetic standpoint, I do think that the US has extra cards in its back pocket that basically could help keep the military or kinetic issues across the world at a minimum. If that's the case, I think the give here is basically going back to the bifurcation of kind of the world, east versus West. I think the US is going to pull back and really focus at home kind of retooling its supply chains here on the western hemisphere and let the east kind of handle itself.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (51:38)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (51:41)

So again, that's kind of where I see it from a geopolitical, economic. But as part of that, we're going to have to figure out how to kind of retool our monetary system and bitcoin. And these volatility harving mechanisms are the only way that we can realign incentives. And I think that having that military might and economic kind of requirement to kind of work together because of demographics, everybody's going to basically play ball. And maybe that's just hopium on my part, but at least that's the framework I've been kind of working with lately.

Marilyn Hoddle (52:29)

No, I completely agree. I like to be. I don't like the doom. I like to be an optimist. Especially when you consider the fact that we have the tools at our fingertips. It just takes the will and the drive to actually pick them up and use them. And if you view it from that perspective, things are actually incredibly optimistic and exciting because you sort of have this opportunity to rewire the global economy and that's a massive opportunity. And I think that's when you position bitcoin. I think it's something I could do better. Everybody could do better is really just painting that incredibly optimistic. We have an opportunity as a generation, as people living on this planet at this particular point in time to really change the trajectory of where our species goes long.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (53:22)

But it's how we realign the incentive structure to help us transition.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (53:25)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (53:25)

And the incentives need to gradually come back to a market rate. And it really comes down to this basically structuring bitcoin into a variety of different products. That's going to get us there.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (53:41)

Yeah.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (53:42)

One being the sovereign debt.

Marilyn Hoddle (53:43)

Well, I guess that's the question. Is it dependent on us doing that or is that almost inevitable? Because more and more people are realizing that bitcoin is just a natural hurdle rate.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (53:56)

And I think it's an acceleration mechanism.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (54:01)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (54:03)

We could use it. Ultimately, Bitcoin is going to win and we're going to end up in that system naturally. Individuals and governments are going to gravitate towards it and it'll fix it over time.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (54:14)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (54:15)

Or we could use a system that I kind of outlined in the paper that basically would help accelerate it.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (54:23)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (54:24)

Question is, what are the fractures? The vibrations are becoming more violent and more frequent. So how much time do we actually have? I mean, how much time do we actually have before the deflationary forces of AI and its impact on labor?

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (54:42)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (54:43)

Not just blue collar, which is still down the road with robotics and the embodiment of AI, but more so with white collar is what we're currently seeing, or college entrance basically getting decimated and not being able to find work because productivity is increasing, kind of the mid to upper level management levels. So they don't need that backfill, I think. Yeah, if we have 20, 30 years, Bitcoin's going to do it. I don't know if we have that much time because of the vibrations. And where AI is going to put us in the next five to 10 years would be my counter argument.

Marilyn Hoddle (55:23)

So what would you tell individuals listening to this? How can they help accelerate or how should they position themselves to prepare for either path, the path where we decide to actually accelerate or we strategically mess up and. Or don't recognize the gravity of the situation and go full bore.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (55:47)

The beauty of this, the beauty is, you know, and I put bitcoin in two distinct categories, right. It's one for the sovereign individual, bring sovereignty back to the individual. So just buy bitcoin. That's all you have to do in either path.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (56:03)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (56:03)

And then the second is potentially my framing, which is it can be used as a tool to kind of transition us into the next system.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (56:13)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (56:15)

So in either situation it's just going to be as an individual, just by bitcoin right now, as to whether I'm hopeful that the US government is, to me, this is the ideas that I have is something that Saylor would have done kind of in his sleep over a weekend, basically playing with AI. He could have figured all this out. And I'm hopeful that maybe the U.S. government has this type of plan or functionality or thought process in play. And if you read the tea leaves, it certainly looks like it could. Not saying it's still highly speculative. But if they don't, you know, they haven't been thinking from this standpoint, it's either this or some variation of this. Notwithstanding any considerations you have to take into the global geo, economic, political, trade type of thought processes that could be leveraged at some point to help again realign incentives across the board. So, you know, one last thing is I was talking at a comic conference call with Jeff Booth just to kind of talk through it at a high level. And at the end of it there was another idea I've been kind of playing with a little bit is what.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (57:32)

If.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (57:35)

Because Jeff's commented multiple times like it's very difficult for humans to look through a paradigm shift and see what it looks like on the other side or be able to understand the changes.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (57:48)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (57:49)

What if Bitcoin, going back to that whole tool idea where it's a tool to help us realign incentives to get through a transition, what if going we talked earlier about Bitcoin having monetary feedback loops and I alluded to that. It also has ethical feedback loops. It's a system built on trust and transparency. What if ultimately Bitcoin was established not only to give us a base layer for the sovereign individual, but to also infiltrate governments and the broken incentive truck structures within our own governments to start bringing trust back to governments and realigning their incentives from serving themselves to serving the people. And ultimately, if governments do use Bitcoin in a method that I've described, they're going to have a large pile of Bitcoin.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (58:48)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (58:49)

So what if once we get through this and we go into kind of an age of abundance where basically all marginal costs are driven to zero because of AI and advancements in AI.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (59:01)

Where.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (59:02)

We value things differently, not from a monetary perspective, but the true value comes in trust. What if Bitcoin realigns reorient society around trust and that's its true value. And when you get to a world of AI, the monetary value is basically there's no need for it anymore. Granted, that's definitely opium and speculation, but I think it's a different framework to start looking at or explore. Is basically the end game. Might not be the monetary value that Bitcoin holds, but the fact that it reinstitutes and re injects trust into society.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (59:41)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (59:42)

So that we can live freely in an age of abundance.

Marilyn Hoddle (59:46)

Yeah, I don't think they're mutually exclusive either.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (59:49)

Right. Yeah.

Marilyn Hoddle (59:52)

Bitcoin has been described as this trust machine.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (59:55)

Right.

Marilyn Hoddle (59:55)

I remember I haven't described it this way in a while, but when I was first getting into Bitcoin and trying to explain it to people going Back to the original form of accounting where people would have to go to town square and somebody would literally have the ledger. And you'd go with your trading partner being like, okay, he's giving me apples. Move money from my point in the ledger to his. You can view bitcoin as just like this massive beam of light that anybody can just anchor into and know that it actually, like you just have complete faith in it and you can trust it because, you know, the consensus rules are open source and the incentives of the system are such that it's really hard to corrupt. And just being able to trust that, that monetary system, which is the most important tool that we use, money, you naturally have those second, third order ripple effects throughout not only the economy, but interpersonal relationships and stuff like that. It's fascinating. That's the frustrating thing. I've been in bitcoin for over a decade now. It's like, how do other people not realize this? And to your point about Jeff based comments about most people not being able to recognize that they're going through a paradigm shift, not only not recognize it, but not understanding how to operate while we're going through it. It's frustrating. Then obviously you have like the culture. Culture war stuff. It seems like the spectrum of political volatility is as wide as it's ever been. It's hitting from all angles. Whether it's. Whether it's like Israel, Palestine, Ukraine, Russia, trans stuff here in the country, guns, rights. Like, it just seems like their racial division. They're hitting it from all angles right now.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (61:57)

Yeah.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (61:57)

And I remain hopeful. I. I know you interviewed Jordy Visser over the summer. Correct. I remember I was up at. I got a date of myself and I went to Gettysburg and I was just kind of walking around listening. And your framing of how you did. Jordy spends a lot of time. I mean, he's a big bitcoin proponent, but he's also very focused on AI and the transition and what that's going to look like. And I loved your framing. And I wrote a piece that basically at the end, it was kind of more of a manuscript for my son and for how I want to kind of raise him and you guys, towards the end of your discussion, we're talking about framing of what it looks like over the next five, 10, 20 years, bringing us from today kind of into the. The age of abundance.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (62:53)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (62:53)

And that, I'd be honest with you, that was kind of a cornerstone for. For why I wrote the piece and got me thinking. So I appreciate that it was Inspirational. And the world's going to change. There's nothing we can do about it and nobody's prepared for it.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (63:13)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (63:16)

If you go out and ask most people what type of system we operate in, being an inflationary one.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (63:22)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (63:23)

Nobody can really explain or realize that there's a counterargument, that there's also deflationary forces.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (63:28)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (63:29)

Everybody's heard a little bit about, you know, the price of a TV goes down over time.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (63:32)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (63:33)

But nobody structurally understands why. And that's. It shows you the degradation of society where we've. We're no longer teaching our kids what's important and how the world actually works. You know, we're sort of stuck on these dopamine hits that are related to our phones or the next TikTok.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (63:53)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (63:54)

And I have a 16 year old as well. And, you know, it's definitely been an eye opening experience and watching her go through her teenage years and see what she values versus what we valued growing up.

Marilyn Hoddle (64:07)

Yeah. No, I mean, it's something. I've got three under six right now.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (64:14)

And.

Marilyn Hoddle (64:16)

It is crazy to think like my oldest is in kindergarten. He's aware, he knows what bitcoin is. He has a bitcoin wallet and he's starting to ask those questions. The last year it's been like, questions in the car. It's like, oh, wow, you're beginning to think about this stuff. How do we approach this? Not only that, but how do we make sure that you don't go insane in this world as you were born? He was a Covid baby. He was born in early 2020. Literally born in the middle. What I would deem to be one of the most massive inflection points and points of awakening. Like Covid, I think was actually the silver lining of COVID was how many people sort of shook awake in the sense of like, hey, something's really wrong here. Did the opposite too. It was the silver lining. It woke up a bunch of people, but it also sent another portion of the population down the road of doubling down on the insanity. And I think it certainly woke me up.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (65:27)

My entry came in 2020 and it was right in the midst of when gold started breaking down, right before bitcoin started rising. I think my orange pill was actually Breedlove's letter to Ray Dalio. He outlined the properties as to why you should invest in bitcoin based upon Dalia's book Principles. And that was the moment I started my journey. And it has not stopped. It just continues to get deeper and deeper. And then you add in the secondary layers of what the convergence of AI means and we're standing in a very interesting moment in history. And I think this is going to be remembered and talked about for generations to come.

Marilyn Hoddle (66:14)

Yeah, yeah. Maybe we'll even be able to talk about it for generations because we'll be able to live to 250.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (66:22)

Potentially. I mean, there's a thought process that our children might not die.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (66:29)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (66:29)

Like it's medical.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (66:32)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (66:33)

It's physiological. You can solve for that potentially. Now, I don't want to get into the ethical issues around that, but there's a potential that our kids could live as long as they want. You know, God forbid an accident, we might be able to solve for that. Which would be interesting. Which is an interesting theory to have.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (66:52)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (66:55)

It has a whole bunch of other second order effects and issues with that.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (66:59)

But.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (67:01)

But to your point, living the 280, why do you have. Why is it just 280?

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (67:05)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (67:08)

That could be go off of some of the other thought leaders in the space. We're ultimately converged with machines. I don't know if I want to go that far, but not impossible.

Marilyn Hoddle (67:19)

No, I don't want to get the chip either. I don't want to become a Borg, a cyborg.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (67:25)

But I think the community appreciates you just the way you are. I know. I certainly do.

Marilyn Hoddle (67:31)

Thank you. I've said it on the podcast recently too. It's equally unnerving and exhilarating. I think the unknown is greater than it's ever been. But the opportunity, on the flip side of that, the opportunity is greater than it's ever been too. That was the last thing I was going to say. I think part of my focus and goals, because you do have these competing forces, particularly from the political spectrum of people that want to go overt, like democratic socialists. They say, I saw Ramdani was on the vo. He's like, I'm not a communist, I'm a democratic socialist. It's like, you're a communist, you're just a step before communism. And so we have. There's a very large portion of the world that wants to go down that direction and tried that failed experiment once again. And then you have people like us who are like, I think, have appropriately recognized that central authority has corrupted everything and we need to get back to emergent properties and distributed decentralized markets. And I think that can fix it. And I think that's going to be. Speaking of threading the needle with bit bonds and recognizing bitcoin is pristine collateral at the federal level, I think socially too there's going to be a critical decision point or turn at some point in the next five years where it's like no, we're free market, we're going the free market direction, not this democratic socialist, communist direction.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (69:15)

Yeah, no, I agree. And Preston Pitches argued that it needs to be like a bit bonds, needs to be kind of a bottom up approach. And I disagree. Bitcoin's been a bottom up approach.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (69:32)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (69:33)

It's grown from nothing to 123 in 13, 14 years. So I think it's come to the point where in order to Trig and Orsa a system that's been hyper financialized that it's going to take strong leadership to realize what the asset class is. And it has to be a top down approach from my perspective. And once it is a top down approach because you might have some different thoughts on that. I believe the asset as it stands and the network and the protocol is completely capable of taking on immense value basically being added to it. I think it's capable of doing it. Now if you hold that thesis, then Bitcoin's ready for the for prime time. And I think administration or a government that realizes its value prop and understands what the asset is, especially backed by the absolute undeniable transparency and scarcity.

Marilyn Hoddle (70:52)

Will.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (70:52)

Establish it as pristine collateral. And once they do that, it doesn't stop, it's game over.

Marilyn Hoddle (70:59)

Yeah, I have no, my perspective is like it's all good. Do it. Don't wait on any other actor to do it, just do it. So again that's why we back battery. It's like let's not wait for the government to issue bit bombs. They should, but let's get something in the private market so that they can pave the way like hey, this works in the private credit structure. You can apply it to this, you can definitely apply it to a bitbond. And yeah, I think the most important thing is just develop the agency, the will and the drive to do what you can do with what's at your fingertips and hope that you're successful number one. And then number two, that success sort of inspires others to bring it into what they're doing.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (71:50)

Yeah, I completely agree. And with battery or with what Grant Cardone's doing.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (71:57)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (71:57)

I think there's going to be a lot of solid examples that will help provide some guidance to the powers to be to help them feel more comfortable in the coming years to kind of move forward with some of these ideas around Bitbonds.

Marilyn Hoddle (72:15)

Yeah, No, I know that they're very solid bitcoiners, well placed throughout the administration. I've talked to them and to the extent that they have ultimate influence over decisions, I don't think it's. They obviously don't have ultimate say. But I think the seeds are being planted, the right seeds are being planted at least if you.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (72:42)

And maybe it's just pie in the sky, but if you take the concept I had about 21 one of the original thoughts, you kind of play it out. Not only does it. Could it potentially bypass congressional approval and basically establish kind of a pilot program, but it's proof of concept, right? Because if you go out and you do it with 100 billion or $200 billion, which is small in comparison to the US government debt, then ultimately what happens when Congress on either side of the aisle starts to see that hey, we might actually be able to borrow 1, 2%, this could actually solve our debt issues or financing issues. Not only that, this gives us the mechanism to move front end maturities or duration to the long end.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (73:36)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (73:37)

Say there's a hiccup with because there's a lot of people including infra on. I spent a lot of time in spaces in Bitcoin today where it looks like we're heading towards yield curve control. It certainly looks like stablecoins could provide the treasury that mechanism, especially if the Fed has been minimized in its power and scope. Then you know, if you're not doing it with yield curve control, at some point you're going to need to move duration and this is going to give the perfect cover mechanism to basically move it out further in the yield curve from where it's currently standing and But I think it's important that the pilot program itself be established because if it you need to have the pilot in order to get congressional or political buy in from both sides of the aisle. Again, going back to incentive alignment, right? Even this simple concept, when it's put out in the wild and it starts to show how it operates, it aligns incentives even across political aisles. You've done a lot of work and the community has done a lot of work on talking to Congress on both sides to basically state that what this asset is and bring everybody to the center to understand it.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (75:07)

Right.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (75:08)

Well, bit bonds are basically a monetary structural proof as well of that. Ultimately I think again the pilot program with the best 21 or somebody else 12 will give us the, give us the examples and the results that we need.

Marilyn Hoddle (75:32)

Yeah, I completely agree. It was like it's all happening Right now, all going according to the plan. We're running towards 124 right now, 23, 720. And it's funny, I think this year was interesting. I was actually talking about it this week at the 1031 retreat that we're on. This year reminds me a lot of like 2015, 2016, where people were completely unable to recognize. I'm just looking at the chart now. We hit a low of 76,000 in April during the tariff tantrum. But we've been hovering in the 100 to 115 range for like six months now. And it's like, if you would have told me that in 2017, that in 2025 where we'd be hanging out, I'd be like, oh, good, Bitcoin succeeding.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (76:25)

Many people feels like we're being dragged through the mud and tortured in the same time.

Marilyn Hoddle (76:33)

That's one thing too. Like bitcoin is. She will humble you because that's the way it works. She'll bore you to death and then she'll rip like she is today. And then people can't stomach the boring periods. And it makes sense because once you see it, you understand like, oh, this should be a 200, 300, $500 trillion market. It's only at 2 1/2 trillion right now. Why isn't this priced in? And I think just the nature of just human nature. People move at their own pace.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (77:08)

It's. Yeah, I put out something quick earlier this week, just talking about being bitcoin based, what that represents. And it plays on the terms humility, right? Because it forces you. Bitcoin forces you. Not only is it a lens to look at the world and actually call it bullshit for what it is, right? And actually say this is real, this is not. When you understand what bitcoin is and the incentive alignment, the bitcoin, the ethical feedback loops. But then when you look at the rest of the world through that lens, you can see how distorted the broken money system has created it. Created. Whether that's politics or Wall street, there are ongoings. That whole process of looking at the world through a bitcoin lens is a processing humility, right? You really have to question everything you've been told your entire life and take a step back and realize that not necessarily a lie, it's just how society's been misaligned, right? With a certain belief system. And to see that belief system break down and to swallow your pride, first off, to explore what this asset is. But then once you start to really dive deep into seeing how it can change things. Yeah, it's a humiliated, It's a lesson, humiliation. But it also, like a phoenix, allows you to kind of to rise up and think clearly. And it reestablishes the thought of Jordy Visser talks about it, you know, sense of childish curiosity, but also fosters critical thinking.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (78:58)

Right.

Marilyn Hoddle (78:59)

Yeah, no, it is. I mean, another phrasing me is creative destruction. Like, creative destruction is like a concept we learn in business school that you're supposed to embrace. And many people, most people don't start businesses. And so I guess you can argue that most people don't recognize that or intuit it. But no, I think that's the hardest part for most people. Luckily, I was very young and impressionable and somewhat radicalized by the great financial crisis when I found bitcoin. So I was almost immediately receptive to it. But most people have a very hard time admitting that they were duped by the authority figures in their lives in many different contexts and aspects. And it's, it's. Everybody likes to think that they are sitting on solid. Standing on solid ground and have the ability to perceive the world in reality in a way that gives them some degree of certainty. And once you find bitcoin and begin recognizing everywhere throughout the system where things are corrupted and you've been lied to, it's hard to hold your hand up and say, yeah, I've been duped for decades. To your point, like, humility is the most critical attribute to have when sitting down and looking at bitcoin.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (80:30)

I think we need more of it.

Marilyn Hoddle (80:31)

Yeah, certainly do.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (80:34)

I think society is going to get its dose of it in short order, but hopefully it's an easier pill to swallow than it could be. Because it could.

Marilyn Hoddle (80:44)

And the quicker you get to that point, the better off your life's going to be in the long run. So anybody out there is skeptical and thinking that we're completely insane talking about not only bitcoin, but the integration of bitcoin into bond issuance. Maybe just eat a slice of humble pie. That's the other thing we were talking about this week on this retreat. How many times does bitcoin have to completely prove you wrong for you to reckon like, we're at 124,000 almost. It's not dead. Yes, had very volatile periods, but it's been up into the right consistently for 16, almost 17 years now. It's the best performing asset of the last 17 years. And how long is that going to continue to happen before people wake up and say, ah, maybe I was Wrong.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (81:40)

It's tough to look in the mirror for a lot of people. And that's part of the humiliation. The humiliation process. Right. But a lot of people do not adjust. They adjust when they're told. Yeah.

Marilyn Hoddle (81:58)

It's been awesome. Marilyn, thank you for doing this. I know it's.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (82:02)

Thanks, Marty. Sorry. I kind of ramble sometimes. So I get lost in thought. But I think you get the drift of my direction and points to what I'm trying to articulate.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (82:12)

Yeah.

Marilyn Hoddle (82:12)

For all the government officials listening out there, consider it. We need to accelerate. I know there are many of you out there. There are dozens of you out there that listen to the show. So light a fire under Scott Bessen's ass and the Trump administration. Tell them to focus. Focus in on this. Because again, I think if you're thinking about manufacturing a soft landing that results in as little social turbulence. If you want to minimize social turbulence over the next five, 10 years. Need to trade a way to manufacture a soft landing. People access an exposure to the most pristine collateral, the best asset that's ever existed.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (83:02)

Yeah. And it's important that we stop duct taping. And to your point, we actually start providing real solutions for the people and following through. So start thinking outside the box. And that's one thing we're good as a community is thinking outside the box.

Marilyn Hoddle (83:23)

Creative destruction. Government participating in creative destruction of the monetary and debt system that they've erected.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (83:35)

The only way out.

Marilyn Hoddle (83:39)

This is awesome. Where should we send people who are interested to learn more about your thoughts and what you're writing about? See the subs.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (83:49)

I'm pretty active on. On X. So you can. You can find me there under Maryland. Hoddle or Maryland or Hoddle. Maryland, I think is actually the. The surname. But and then there in my bio, there'll be a link to my substack. I pretty much put things out on both platforms. So you just follow me.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (84:10)

You'll.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (84:11)

You'll see the information.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (84:12)

All right.

Marilyn Hoddle (84:13)

We will link both of those in the show notes. I hope you have a great weekend.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (84:17)

Hopefully you too, sir.

Marilyn Hoddle (84:19)

We can do this at some point in the future as things progress. Yeah, absolutely.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (84:23)

Look forward to it. Again, I just want to say thank you for all of your efforts and contributions to the community. You've certainly been instrumental kind of in developing my foundation over the last couple years as I've really dipped into the space so well.

Marilyn Hoddle (84:40)

We're all in it together.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (84:41)

Thanks. Through a common bond.

Marilyn Hoddle (84:45)

Yes.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (84:46)

Truth.

Marilyn Hoddle (84:47)

We're gonna win.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (84:48)

We're gonna win.

Marilyn Hoddle (84:49)

As we'd like to.

Bitcoin Analyst/Strategist (84:50)

Yes. We will.

Discussion Participant/Interviewer (84:51)

All right.

Marilyn Hoddle (84:52)

Peace of Love Freaks.

Podcast Host/Advertiser (84:53)

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