← TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast
TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast
#684: Bringing Bitcoin to Every Square Seller in America with Miles Suter
01:13:49
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- [00:07]
A
You've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free. If you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts. So it's all acting like safe haven.
- [00:19]
B
I believe that in a world where.
- [00:21]
A
Central bankers are tripping over themselves to.
- [00:23]
B
Devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.
- [00:29]
A
I mean, that's part of the bull case for bitcoin.
- [00:32]
B
If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.
- [00:34]
A
Probably should be.
- [00:35]
B
Probably should be, like, as you said, eight years in the making.
- [00:40]
A
It's a pleasure to be here, Marty. And, yeah, it's a real long time coming.
- [00:44]
B
Well, the pleasure is mine. It's hard to treat you like you're a guest because you're such a good friend. I've often referred to you and I truly mean this. And I think it stays true to this day that you are the most underrated man in bitcoin because of all the work that you've been doing behind the scenes. First at Cash App and now at Block more broadly. We're here today at Cash App Releases, the event announcing everything that the Cash App team is working on releasing. And I don't want any spoilers. This will come out after it. But it's pretty sick what you guys are launching, but not only a Cash App. I was at the proto release party in Georgia in August. That was incredible. I think the bitcoin mining community and industry is very excited for you guys getting into the hardware business there. And obviously, over the last week, Square Point of Sale terminals have released bitcoin functionalities to all Square sellers across the country. So you guys have been shipping like crazy this year.
- [01:43]
A
It's been a wild couple weeks. A couple days, Couple weeks and even months. But it's a core principle of Block Inc. The parent company of all these bitcoin initiatives. But it's a core principle to show, not tell. And so, yeah, it kind of blows my mind as well that this is kind of my first real podcast that I've done. But I couldn't. I wouldn't have done it with anybody else just because of our long history together and just like our deep, deep friendship since the early days of bitcoin, trying to will this thing into existence.
- [02:20]
B
Well, we were just talking about it. I think we need to tell some more stories because I think many people got into bitcoin, particularly post 2020, don't understand how hard it was being a bitcoiner. And from the 2013 to 2019 era, I would say. I think when Saylor came in, when stimulus checks started hitting post Covid, people really began to realize the profundity of bitcoin and why they should hold it as an asset and use it as money. But before then, it was like we were wandering in the desert trying to convince people that this is something worth paying attention to.
- [02:58]
A
It was a very lonely endeavor. Totally. And Twitter was often the place. Twitter is where I met you. And for many years, it felt like kind of screaming out into the void. None of my friends really cared to listen to me or were convinced enough. I was the crazy bitcoin friend for many, many years. And I think there's something about bitcoiners, especially early bitcoiners, where they have the tenacity within them to stick with their beliefs. I feel like we've always known in the back of our heads, are we a little crazy? But no, no, no. This really makes sense. But it was a lonely process for a long time. And I remember a lot of those early days on Twitter feeling so relieved, where there's people like you that understand the intellectual journey that I've similarly been on, can understand the social isolation, in many cases, of not being able to talk to your family or your friends, your college professors or people that you think are smart that should have groked this thing. But it's a very solitary mission. But I think it's made us all really strong in the long run. But, yeah, I look back fondly of the days of Twitter, of feeling it's like, oh, Marty Bent, my first real bitcoin friend, or Matt O', Dell, or Jack Mallers. Mr. Hodl. These are the first people that I relate to and feel like deep, deep connection intellectually, but also sort of like spiritually as we hopped on this mission together.
- [04:40]
B
Yeah. And as you're describing that journey, it's very. I don't know if ironic the correct word, but the fact that we all met on Twitter, which was founded by Jack Dorsey, and then we're here discussing, you guys are building a block, which was also founded by Jack Dorsey, is incredibly poetic in a way, because, similarly, I was in this city. I lived in New York at the time. I'd been into bitcoin since college. I was in Chicago, but I came here, and I was just by myself on the Internet, obsessed with bitcoin, looking for others. And obviously there was public Twitter conversations. But sometimes the best conversations happen in DMs, where it's like, okay, what do we need to do? And I think you're an incredible example, someone who saw the big vision and is using your knowledge and your expertise and your ability to build things to join a large company like Block and basically imbue it with bitcoin. Obviously, Jack is all on board and this is part of the DNA of the Block family of businesses. And I think for people who haven't or aren't familiar with the sort of timeline of the integration of bitcoin across Blocks companies, maybe it's a good time to just describe what the early days of Cash app were like and why you guys decided to lean into bitcoin.
- [06:03]
A
Sure. And I just want to start with saying I don't think there's any company in the world doing more for bitcoin than Block Inc. And I appreciate you recognizing the way we've approached this. And we've always tried to do it with a ton of principle and with the long run in mind for us, for me, for Jack, for everybody working on bitcoin at the company. The mission is so much more important than the money. And we try to keep that core to what we're doing at all times. And I mean like the gains when I say the money, because we believe that bitcoin's ultimate destiny is to become what Satoshi wanted, peer to peer, electronic cash. And so one of our overarching company missions is to make bitcoin everyday money. And we've taken really intentional steps over the eight years that I've been at the company to really push forward that evolution sequentially. And it started in 2017 when I joined CashApp. Jack and Danji, our current CTO, were doing a hack week project. Jack had asked him, can you integrate bitcoin into Cash app? And Cash app was really small at this time. It was email to email based system that was just kind of piloted internally for moving money around and was kind of at the very early stages, maybe a bit more, a bit beyond that. But that's how it started a couple years before and I knew someone on the Cash app side and for years I'd wanted to work in bitcoin. And as I said to many of my friends from college, I was the crazy bitcoin friend that they wanted to shut up talking about it as the night got later, on the weekends or at the bar eventually. I think you and many listeners can relate is that once you get the mind virus, it's like everything ultimately comes back to bitcoin and you just want and you want to share it with everybody. So I annoyed all of my friends For a long time. But at least that reputation stuck in because when they wanted to productionize bringing Bitcoin to Cash App to actual customers, there wasn't a ton of DNA on the team. And so my friend introduced me to Jack, introduced me to the leadership team at Cash App and I joined in June and helped productionize that and bring it to market as the first public company to support to support bitcoin, period.
- [08:52]
B
And why do you think it was important for a company like Cash App at the time to do that, having been in Bitcoin for many years at that point?
- [09:03]
A
Well, for me it was just an amazing opportunity. I'd wanted to work in bitcoin for years, but there weren't a lot of jobs available. I had applied to Coinbase in 2013, but it was mostly engineering and they were small and the future super uncertain. I just started another job as well. And so it's hard to look back or for people that are newer, it's hard to understand how uncertain things felt way back in the day. And I think we owe a lot of that certainty and conviction and stability now to a lot of the early moves of companies like Cash App and the many, many other contributors that helped get us to this point. But I mean, there were unbelievable hurdles to jump through as the first public company, not only regulatory wise, not just with the government, but even internally within Square. It was just Square at the time. Square sq was what had IPO'd, what everybody knew was the big brand. And Cashapp was the little brother within the company and was actually losing a ton of money. It was actually potentially disastrous for the entire company if they didn't find a sustainable business model. But right around that same time on Cash App, things started to click. And I wouldn't credit it all to Bitcoin or even most of it to Bitcoin. Bitcoin certainly provided a nice boost there and brought a lot of attention to it, to the broader sort of market and audience. But right around that time we clicked and found a sustainable growth model as well. And it really coincided that we took on exponential growth at that point. So almost from the day I started it was kind of strap your seatbelt in and get going. And ultimately we're now at the point we scaled like crazy over the last six, eight, I mean four, it's like good. Throughout my entire time we've been scaling like crazy. And I remember talking with Owen, who's now head of business across all of Block Inc. But we looked at each other in 2017 or 2018 and Apple had just come out with their wallet. Venmo was so far ahead of us in terms of people knowing where they were and actual user counts and volume and all of that. And we looked at each other and was like, if we do this, if we actually catch these guys, this is going to be crazy. This is going to be some sort of movie looking back on it. And at this point, we're at 58 million monthly users. We're one of the biggest debit card programs in all of the US and so it's been an incredible journey integrating Bitcoin into this ecosystem, but also growing that broader ecosystem as well.
- [12:01]
B
Yeah, the stat I just saw downstairs, you've helped 24 million customers get on board to Bitcoin as well. Some of it may be small, but some of it's certainly large.
- [12:11]
A
Well, that's actually one of the things I'm most proud about in terms of who does Cash app serve and who are its customers. It's not people on Wall street for the most part. It's not people that have a lot of financial privilege. It's more. It's Americans from a hugely diverse set of backgrounds, whether geographically, socioeconomically, and for me, that's what Bitcoin has always been about. Getting better money into the hands of the people, not the, not the corporations, not the, the government or the hedge funds. It's a. Like, Bitcoin is for the people. And that's kind of always been core to my ethos in this space.
- [12:54]
B
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- [16:20]
A
So the point I left a little unfinished before when talking about cash being a small part of square at that time was that we faced a lot of internal opposition. Even bitcoin's boiling in the ocean. It's bitcoin is X, bitcoin is Y. And getting alignment at a big company can be difficult. But over those eight years, we've done a lot of internal education, we've brought in new people that are really excited about bitcoin. And so I think there's a lot more unity and commitment to the cause. And I think that starts with Jack at the top. And I think it. We recently had a. We flew all 10,000 people from the company out for a. A company birthday party. Essentially it was our 16th birthday. It's a square number. Everybody was in Oakland and we did like, essentially like a very high production, two day conference inside the Oakland arena. And the talk of the town leaving that was bitcoin. About how bitcoin showed up the biggest at that conference and how so many people left with the impression like, oh my God, I finally understand bitcoin now. Because I think one of the most impactful panels that we had there was Jack interviewed a number of human rights activists from around the world that are using bitcoin in amazing circumstances, circumstances of extreme difficulty and resilience. And I think that really resonated with so much of the company that maybe is further away from the work and helped us understand as Americans or people in first world countries, just how much financial privilege we have and that bitcoin is for everyone. And then there were other sessions on bitcoin as well. But just a little sidetrack that like it's been a long process. Just like orange peeling the world or your family is a process. I think the same process has happened internally. So I think that's really good and that's really important. About a year ago we also shifted to a functional model within the company that has allowed us to be a lot more intentional and deliberate with our bitcoin products, what we're shipping and what is the overall vision. How do these different things come together? And like you mentioned, there's been so many announcements and launches in the last few months in particular. And I think, I mean this week was so exciting for me because the square payments thing was something of really great importance for our company. But for bitcoin as a whole, I think even when I started in 2017, people were asking me, like, when square, when lightning. So like finally be able to do it is a huge, huge milestone. And I think a number of the features that you saw previewed today at Cash releases, I think pair into that really well for what the evolution of bitcoin can continue to look like and what it can mean for a major financial firm to be increasingly leaning into these primitives and the capabilities behind them.
- [19:44]
B
Yeah. And since we're releasing this on Monday and we're not going to break any embargo, we can talk about it. I mean, the pay a bitcoin invoice with a cash balance from Cash app was something you were just telling me before we hit record. There's some lore behind that particular application.
- [20:01]
A
Yeah. So this feature is something that was the core primitive for how Strike was actually started. And it's a brilliant model because it allows lightning invoices to be paid with dollars, which avoids any sort of taxable, taxable event for the sender, which has been like one of the limiting factors that people talk about when why bitcoin payments won't exist or won't take off, especially before some de minimis exception comes out. But the deep, deep lore is I pulled out an email from. As I mentioned earlier, Jack and I go way back. We're great friends. And that's the beauty of bitcoin is like he has an app that is essentially, I would call it like a bitcoin native version of Cash app. And they've been doing tremendously well and successful and fine, awesome to see their success because as one part of the network grows, the other benefits as well. And that's something we share in conviction, is how the open network wins. And it's really unique about our industry where we can cheer for our competition.
- [21:15]
B
I had this experience downstairs where I paid an invoice from the Square POS terminal and I pulled up Primal app, which is using Strike on the back end, paid and boom, Strike to Cash app interoperable.
- [21:28]
A
Yep. And so just the more people using bitcoin, the stronger the overall network is and the more successful my company is going to be and the more successful every bitcoin company is going to be. And so, yeah, side quest there. But the funny part is the foundational idea for Strike was actually emailed to me from Jack on November 1, 2019, because we were talking about doing it for a Cash App internal hack week and so it's like what a. That brought like a swell to my heart looking at that, like, oh man, simple days back then and made me super proud to see the growth of the industry, the growth of my friends in the industry and how far things have come from that day since. Yeah.
- [22:13]
B
And it's been very obvious the last six months particularly that bitcoin is everyday money is a core focus. It seems like over the last few years, many in the bitcoin space, if you're not paying attention to what's happening on the ground in terms of payments innovation, whether it's cashew mints, Ark protocol, the maturation of lightning, many people become convinced that bitcoin is simply digital gold that you're supposed to buy, hold, never sell, never spend, try to speculative attack the credit system to get more bitcoin. But like you mentioned earlier, the goal at Block is to make sure that bitcoin is everyday money. And what would you say to people? Let's say it's not wise to go after that medium of exchange use case right now.
- [23:01]
A
Yeah. So we have a three part sort of approach for how we've served the bitcoin community and ecosystem to get to that end goal that I'll circle back to at some point. But we believe with conviction that in order for bitcoin to maintain the attributes that make it so unique, namely censorship, resistance, it requires velocity. Storing it in ETFs or on corporate treasuries and just having it sit idle there, it's. It loses the very thing that attracted people like you and me to it originally. And so we believe that in order for bitcoin to truly succeed, for it to become the native currency of the Internet, we want it to be used every day. And we think that we are uniquely positioned to help push this. And so just like I mentioned earlier that when we launched Cash App, a lot of on Cash App, a lot of people are like, you guys are a little crazy and you're a little early and not many people know, even before that, in 2013, kind of like that Bull Run Square actually debuted on chain acceptance through a third party before rolling it back after. Not a lot of people accepted. I remember walking to the coffee shop around the corner from me in San Francisco in Knop Hill, and it was clunky and the barista didn't know how to use it. And you'd see this at all the kind of attempts at introducing payments to the mainstream to date is that there was always a sidecar, or the training was difficult, or the Bitcoin person isn't in right now. You can't pay in bitcoin. And so I think the seamlessness of what we've launched on Square recently is going to be a huge part of why the odds of this clicking and growing and progressing to where we hope it to get to be is different this time. And you asked me earlier, what's changed or why is now the right time? Today is the right time to do it. Tomorrow would be the right time to do it. If not us, then who? It feels like it's reaching a point where we need to. It's almost like, which way, Western man? We feel strongly that this is the direction bitcoin should go and people should vote with their feet, vote with their sats. And to see the response from the community. The last few days on Twitter has been truly unbelievable. I just, I've always loved. Occasionally they make me crazy. But seeing like the community engagement and how inspired people have been to deputize themselves to go sign up their local Square merchants to tell them to turn on bitcoin because they want to pay them in bitcoin because they want this virtuous cycle to flow. It's like there's so many beautiful people in this space and so many people that are so mission driven that it's an honor to be a part of it so frequently.
- [26:26]
B
And there's massive benefits to the sellers for incorporating it. Both if you do cash and you put a portion of that in the bitcoin right away. But on the payment side, from a fee perspective, it makes a lot of sense to enable bitcoin payments.
- [26:41]
A
The merchants understand it right away, even normie merchants. And I think what's really unique about what we've launched, Jack had a great tweet, but our merchants can now accept payments in four different ways, Bitcoin to bitcoin. So customer sending bitcoin, merchant receiving bitcoin, holding it as bitcoin, you can go BTC to fiat. So that means automatically converting it into dollars. For, like these normie sellers that I was talking about, they want to save 3%, but they don't want to hold bitcoin. They'll do that any day. You. You know, it's like, I don't even have to think about the bitcoin. Yeah, sure, sign me up. Turn it on. If people want to pay me that way, great. The flip side of what we've also built is what we. It's called our conversions product. And so that is where daily card sales come through. People are tapping as they buy their coffees, you set a percentage that you want converted and DCA'd into Bitcoin on a daily basis. And I actually think that's the product that's going to take off more immediately than payments. That's kind of the equivalent of what I like, the parallel to cash app that really we saw Buy Sell and increasing accessibility as the first step of people's journey into Bitcoin. I think that's where people can start really small, get a little bit of exposure, see how it affects their cash flows and then observe it over time that yes, this thing's volatile, but it trends towards trends only in one direction on a long enough time frame. And so I really love that daily conversions feature. And then you can still take fiat to fiat payments as well. But we built a fully native Bitcoin banking stack for the 4 million merchants across the US and it's really a first in, in the world integration that it's not just bolted on, it's truly deeply integrated into the tools that you already know and love within Square. So that means your loyalty still works and your gift cards still work. There's just being part of the ecosystem. I think Bitcoin is an incredible new part of the Square experience and we're seeing great excitement out the gates. And I think we're still just like cash. I think we're early on the payment stuff. We very well may be early, but we have a history of taking principled early bets. And from this foundation I think the genie is out of the bottle and it'll just grow and grow as more merchants come to appreciate that there's no fees for accepting Bitcoin, there's no chargebacks and you don't have to wait at all to get access to your funds. And in an increasingly digital world, those are three very important attributes for people trying to make a for hard working Americans trying to make a living running their business.
- [29:39]
B
Sup freaks. Have you noticed that governments have become more despotic? They want to surveil more, they want to take more of your data, they want to follow you around the Internet as much as possible so they can control your speeds, control what you do. Imperative in times like this to make sure that you're running a VPN as you're surfing the web, as we used to say back in the 90s. And it's more imperative that you use the right VPN, a VPN that cannot log because of the way that it's designed. And that's why we have partnered with Obscura that is our official VPN here at tftc, built by bitcoiner Carl Dung for bitcoiners focused on privacy. You can pay in Bitcoin over the Lightning. So not only are you private while you're perusing the web with Obscura, but when you actually set up an account, you can acquire that account privately by paying in Bitcoin over the Lightning network. Do not be complacent when it comes to protecting your privacy on the Internet. Go to obscura.net Set up an Obscura account. Use the code TFTC for 25% off. When I say account, you just get a token. It's a string of token. It's not connected to your identity at all. Token sign up pay with Bitcoin completely private Turn on Obscura, Surf the web privately. Obscura.net, use the code TFTC for 25% off. Secure your Bitcoin's future and your family's peace of mind. Too many heirs lose access to Bitcoin because there's no clear inheritance plan. We'll show you how to change that on Wednesday, November 19 at 11am Central join Dhruv Bansal, the Chief Security Officer at Unchained, Jeff Vandru, CFO and Chief Legal Officer at Unchained, and Joshua Preston, the CEO of Gannett Trust, for a live Fireside chat on how to make your Bitcoin legacy secure. Simple and built to last. We'll cover transfer on death beneficiaries, which is a new Unchained feature for designating who inherits your Bitcoin and removes uncertainty for your family connections. Unchained vaults are uniquely built to let you share custody to help your heirs or trusted partners securely recover your Bitcoin when it matters most. Last but not least, estate planning. They'll go over how Ganet Wealth Advisors expert financial guidance integrates with Unchained to protect your keys and your legacy. Bring your questions the this conversation is designed to give you clarity on how to make inheritance seamless with real Bitcoin, not IOUs. Go to unchained.com tftc to sign up. Yeah, well, and to that last point. Hardworking Americans trying to make a living. I know this is something we've talked about over the eight years. Knowing each other, I think we both very much view Bitcoin as a tool to get us closer to a future which more humans are free. That is your Twitter bio. I deeply care about human freedom. I think that's where we really connect. We got into Bitcoin with anti military, industrial complex sort of ethos. And we're both children of the great financial crisis. And I'll just speak for myself. When I saw that and everything that happened in the early 2010s as it relates to WikiLeaks Snowden, it became clear to me there needs to be an alternative. It feels like Bitcoin is that and that's why I've dedicated my life to it. But as times progressed and you look at the political discourse in the country right now and how polarized everything is, and in my view, everybody's wiping up branches when they're missing the core of the problem, which is that the money's broken. And I've written about this many times the last few weeks as you guys have continued to roll out these products. This is massive to me because I think bitcoin is that sly, roundabout way to fix a lot of the social issues which are seeped in economic stress in the United States without having to ask politicians to fix it for us. And so by enabling 4 million square merchants to get onboarded to Bitcoin, whether that's receiving payments, letting their users or their customers paying Bitcoin, or simply sweeping some of their fiat revenues into Bitcoin to sit on their treasury, to me that is more impactful than trying to fix the economic issues that exist in America today by going to D.C. and asking them to fix it for us.
- [33:41]
A
I think that's extremely well said and I resonate a lot with your journey as we've talked about over the many years. But I mean I'm old school. Like I came to bitcoin, I found bitcoin in the zero hedge comment section in 2011, which, I mean if there was ever a spot that Marty Jones would feel right at home at those zero hedge comment sections. But I say I'm old school because for me it was always about constraining the power of the state to act in an unethical manner. I was very red pillowed about the foreign adventurism of the US military and the pain we were causing in the Middle East. And back then there wasn't. It's like pretty mainstream to be like, oh yeah, those wars were a disaster these days. But even in 2011 or 15, back in 2011 or those days, it was not like you're still kind of an outsider if you're doing that. It's been positive to see the way things have changed. But there was a lot tighter grip on cultural consensus back then, I think. And I think that that same Thing is true of money where people are asking what is money? And, and it's kind of culturally understood like, oh yeah, they just print as much of it as. And there's no constraint on it, yada yada yada. But you ask people back then, have you ever thought about what money is? It'd be like, shut up, don't care, things are stable. But I don't. It's not really of concern to me. So I think that is a positive that people do feel more conscious about sort of these macro things. I think there's a lot further to go on a number, in a number of these areas. But as you mentioned to me, like bitcoin has always been. Bitcoin is civil disobedience, is a tweet out. I put, I put out a number of years ago and I believe that it is opting out. It is putting your weight behind building a better, fairer system. And I think that's been core to my journey. And so just to tie it back to what you said about at Block, we want to make Bitcoin everyday money and to get there, we believe we have to make it more accessible, we need to make it more secure and then we need to make it more usable and, and going back to your kind of timeline question, Cash app was all about making it accessible, making it instantly available for millions of people across the U.S. we're doing the same thing now with Square, where people can get their first touches on it, experience it and increase usability and accessibility. So the second sort of bucket of projects that we look at is making it more secure. Like if Bitcoin is going to be around for generations and the future of the entire global financial system, we need it to be secure, we need it to be decentralized. And so that inspired our investments in both bitkey and Prodom. With bitkey, we're making it more secure to hold your own keys, to have it be recoverable and introduce self custody to a whole new audience. This is self custody that my grandma can use. And with Proto, we felt it was really important to offer an American company alternative to kind of like the duopoly within that comes from China and has a mixed bag of reviews from the many people deep in the mining, you know all about it.
- [37:38]
B
As somebody deep in the mining industry, I can speak for a lot of us where it's like, thank God there's a competitor to Bitmain and Micro bt. Just because I would say Bitmain specifically is not as customer forward as somebody like Proto seems to be already we.
- [37:56]
A
Really hope to change that. And then in making Bitcoin more usable, I think it's about showing these opportunities of how and why you should be using Bitcoin every day and ultimately progress it on its path to everyday money. And so we talked about some of the merchant benefits, the no fees, no chargebacks, instant availability. But then how do we make it even simpler from the cash up side of things? And so we talked a little bit about a product that internally we called it Dollars on Lightning for a long time, basically the Strike model. Preserve your stack with while still letting the merchant receive Bitcoin and take advantage of Bitcoin, the network and then perhaps the asset as well, or perhaps fiat. But I think the next sort of step from this product that I think is really, really exciting is so everybody in Strike is like Bitcoin native. Everybody within Cash app using Lightning with the Bitcoin as the foundation is Bitcoin native or like they understand Bitcoin to some extent. But in any given month it's like single digit monthly actives of bitcoin customers. But we have this top of funnel of 58 million monthly actives and so that's 50 plus million people active on the app each month that we can introduce the Lightning network too. Without even knowing what Bitcoin is or what Lightning is. By letting them use that US dollar balance that they all have. I think it's a step into a step towards onboarding the next tens of millions of people onto Bitcoin without even requiring them to know what it is. And so I think that's a big part in sort of connecting the ecosystem. And I think it's all going to be driven by economic incentives. I think when merchants are saving money on processing fees, they can pass that back to customers who are increasingly conscious of the fading value of their dollar, that their salary is not keeping up with inflation, that their taxes keep rising, that it's hard to be an American. It's hard to be. I have a lot of empathy for people in America that are struggling. I think far too often we don't call those people out or they're ignored. But I also want to recognize that I'm super passionate about people in the developing world who have it much, much harder as well, which is why I paused. But at least on the cash up side of things, things are harder. And so I think meaningful getting 1% back in Bitcoin from the merchant because you, you scan this QR code instead of swiping your card, I think that's meaningful. And that's something that we want to lean a lot into. The other feature that we launched this week at Cash releases is what we're calling bitcoin maps. And so a lot of what we love to do things that are good for our company but good for the community as well. And we love open source is like core to the Block Inc. DNA. Going back to our little timeline before in 2019 we started a wing of the company called Spiral that's led by Steve lee. We have 10 full time people where all they do is work on bitcoin and Jack can't tell Steve or that team what to work on. They're just like completely independent, just funded by Block Inc. We've probably given 100 grants to people on every continent around the world. And so they're doing really important work growing the open source ecosystem. And that's just open source bitcoin. Block has, we have a head of open source within the company. Our AI initiative Goose is all about open source as well. And so open source is really core to what we're doing and we do a lot at the company. Obviously I'm focusing only on bitcoin, but there's a lot of cool stuff going on across the company that I encourage everybody to look into. But back to the map, we used an Open Source Framework, btcmap.org and this was just like a volunteer based thing where people are tagging stores that accept bitcoin and it works across the entire globe. And it's actually really fun to zoom out, zoom in and kind of like see where's all the action. But with the square integration, we made it so every merchant that turns on payment is given a pop up, a quick yes or no, like do you want to be added to the bitcoin map to get free advertising to this rabid bunch of people that are part of this movement that want to kick off the flywheel of bitcoin payment adoption. And so it's really cool to have both sides of the network where these merchants are popping up on the map and then our engaged consumers on this side can use the map as a hub to go find these consumer incentives to go chase these deals and support this protocol, support this protocol like Johnny Appleseed with bitcoin at these new places. But also we can point the normies in here too if we're getting, getting meaningful rewards back in some of these places from the savings of processing. And so we're calling those quests, we're going to be able to send people on quest to go find Merchants that are doing a promotion or want to accept bitcoin and get things back within cash app. And the second part of what we're launching in the next version of the map is what we're calling quests. And this is what I mentioned earlier and what I've been I put out a video tweet for the first time in my life being like, hey guys. But it was actually super fun and amazing reaction of engaged bitcoiners around the country going to their local coffee shop that uses square, convincing them to turn turn on bitcoin payments and then doing a payment. And I said, hey, I'll pay out a bounty to anybody that'll do this. We'll automate this process. Yesterday was just a scrappy version, but I was blown away with the response and definitely something we're going to productionize and automate to happen automatically. But I just, I pretty caught up in the moment. Just wanted to keep all the excitement and energy going yesterday. So I think that was a big success.
- [44:24]
B
I saw our friend Paul Keating was really putting up numbers yesterday.
- [44:28]
A
I think he put up six merchants on the island of Kauai. Can't be that many merchants. We'll get them all pretty soon.
- [44:35]
B
To any merchants who are new to this podcast and listening in because Miles is on, just go look at Steak n Shake. They came out with some financials. They saw a 15% uplift in revenue when they announced bitcoin store over store.
- [44:48]
A
Sales or what metrics called it was.
- [44:50]
B
Material gross in there and the revenue and like the bitcoiners are sort of a rabid consumer base that is looking to Johnny Appleseed bitcoin adoption and so they will treat you well. And I think this gets to another thing like moving forward not only for block but for bitcoin. Like what do you think is most critical as we move further into sort of this inflection point of human history for turning whatever you want to call it.
- [45:21]
A
So I think we have a lot of pieces in place for bitcoin and you know, through all the cycles, I'm constantly shocked by the surprises that come through and like the brief heart attacks or not so brief heart attacks as things inevitably go wrong. But I'm always shocked by the resilience and the people and I think we have a lot of the right things in place and ultimately we're doing everything we can as a company to make sure bitcoin is resilient, decentralized, secure, accessible and used by people all around. But it takes more than us and it Takes the community. But I think what we've seen in the past is even when we're early, we see others follow. And so I hope that as I mentioned, Open Network, the more point of sales companies accepting bitcoin, the better. Please go copy the products and turn on, get even more merchants converting their daily sales each and every day. To me, these blue collar and high end, high end places as well, using square. To me, these are like the real bitcoin treasury companies, the ones using proof of work every day to put the bitcoin on their balance sheet. And that's sort of like a speculative attack that aligns much more with like sort of my ethos. And what gets me excited.
- [46:50]
B
Yeah, I saw Parker in Sahil down in Austin spending bitcoin at what used to be my favorite local grocer, which is local pastures. Well, the best you have Sam Moffatt, who's been on the show before, he runs Shirt Tail Creek Farms. They have the best eggs I've ever had in my life. Incredible ground beef.
- [47:08]
A
They were an early beta tester that we got on board and Sam came.
- [47:12]
B
On the show and I think after he was on the show, Parker and I were like, hey, this guy wants to get in. But at the time, this was a year, year and a half ago, like he was curious but didn't have the tools to do it. And it seems like you guys have made that really easy. And I remember what I wanted to ask earlier when we were on this thread of seller adoption. I remember a couple weeks ago when I sent a tweet out when you guys announced something related to the square pos. Somebody responded. They've been in a beta test for two years. And their comment was, I'm extremely excited for all other square sellers to get access to this because it's been incredibly beneficial for me and my business. Is there any sort of data or KPIs from that beta test that you can put point too?
- [47:54]
A
So I think actually the most interesting way to answer this is to go through the timeline of how this all came to be. As I mentioned, there's a lot more internal alignment within the last year. A lot more. I have a lot more mandate to make things happen across cache, square and bity. And there's just been a lot of things shifting that have put us in a good position to execute really quickly and ship things. But the test that we're talking about, we did a hack week project over two years ago, maybe three years ago. We had nobody on the square side. Square was doing its own Thing, we were all on the Cash app side, but on nights and weekends, we hacked together a hack week that let a very small percentage of merchants convert some daily sales into bitcoin within Cash app. And so nothing was really built natively within Square. We did that for one hack week. The next year we did another hack week. We kind of like took it a step further, but it really wasn't until January of this year that we're like, hey guys, can we. I mean, we wanted to launch it for real, but in January was the first time, like, all right, got people, you got a plan, go do this. And so it started with, I think it was January. I emailed Michael Markle from BTC Inc. Who kind of like he runs all the payments for the bitcoin conference. And I was like, hey dude, what if we tried to do the payments at the bitcoin conference? And we'd do it as a big surprise, people would see it and we would announce it at the conference that this is coming at that time. And so we did that. But the, the kind of lore that we didn't really talk about is the product that we just launched was not built at all in April. It wasn't. We had just kind of kicked off that work and we're figuring out how can we even get this done in 2025 at all, period, Even though we're going to announce it finished by the end of the year. But what we launched and actually used at the bitcoin conference, we launched it non custodially. So each Square terminal had its own non custodial wallet in there. We had the LSP that's opening just in time channels to them and managing liquidity across this. And it was like doing bitcoin payments acceptance on expert mode before we'd even done the hand holding. Yeah, Novice mode. And so that felt like so crazy that we decided to do it. But we'd had a couple engineers building this on the side just for fun. Well, not for fun. I think they hoped to get it out at some point, but we had to tighten this thing up in about a month or two. Going into it, the night before, I was like, I don't know, I'm 80% sure this is going to work. This is going to go super well. And the team works so hard and we were so diligent, like 15 of us behind the merch booth, which we were powering, just grinding as a team, really closely together to make sure that this was a success and then announce this vision of what we were Going to build and then to have the team follow through in such a short timeline was the best engineering effort that I've seen in my career. And so this week has been kind of a culmination of that. I. I was pretty emotional on Monday, sending a video to the entire team because it's something we've been building towards for many years. And it all came together with the bitcoin payments launch on Monday. I think it's now Wednesday. And we're launching a few of these features on the Cash app side to really connect the ecosystem and make it even more powerful. I think this overall narrative and ability to actually will this thing into existence is a lot more real. After we announced it at the bitcoin conference, I remember thinking like, ah, this is so good. Jackson would be super happy to me. And one of the press releases said, like, coming out in 2026, like, da, da, da, da, da. With all these kind of caveats. And Jack was, he was like, no, it's like, this needs to come out this year and we need to figure out how to do it. And I basically thought it was impossible. But November 10 was the date and we're really proud to hit that. That was with like 100% of our focus pointed on square for the last nine months. And then there's like. And by the way, we're doing this cash releases event too. And so we've had to figure out how to get these three other compelling products to market this same week as well. So I'm really looking forward to the team being able to breathe a little bit. But deadlines create urgency and deadlines. I think that's been a big change that's been really positive for this year. We're doing these twice annual Square releases, twice annual cache releases. And I think it drives a lot of urgency that's led to a lot of really amazing shipping recently.
- [53:02]
B
I did not know that, Lore. We set it a Guinness Book, a world record.
- [53:06]
A
Yeah, we did. We did.
- [53:07]
B
As the official witness of the record. I can say we set the record.
- [53:12]
A
It's getting a little hairy there at the end, but we got it. We got it over the mark at the end. Thanks to Rockstar Dev.
- [53:18]
B
Yeah, it's what's like fast shipping. I mean, I texted you, what was it a month ago when you guys announced it? November 10th, it'd be rolled out. I was like. Because during your presentation you did say 2026 and the PR. 2026, it's like, oh, we got it two months early. And this is another thing Maybe not directly related to the bitcoin products, maybe it is, but we've been talking about this. I mean I think we've both gotten into vibe coding, AI and obviously with what Owen just announced downstairs, looks like Cash app has an AI agent in the app Moneybot.
- [53:55]
A
Yeah.
- [53:55]
B
And you're mentioning Goose earlier. Open source sort of agentic framework or MCP framework. And how has that helped you guys build, especially like in a large organization?
- [54:07]
A
Jack loves the phrase give time back. That's ultimately what we can do for our customers. What we can do for our merchants is automate a lot of the mindless bullshit that comes with a day to day job or running a business or running your financial life. The more we can create wonderful experiences that give time back to customers, the more time they have for real creative endeavors or meaningful endeavors. That's a core vision for what we want to serve to our customers, but also how we operate internally. And so the number one company priority for the last 12 months has been to automate block and we're increasingly moving like our entire operating system and the tools we use into Goose and a few other sort of versions of that for internal tools. But I think what's, I think what's been really interesting to see over the last year especially is how it feels like a golden age for very high agency people to bust through walls and accomplish things that they previously couldn't do or they had to wait for permission or alignment from this team and that team, big company stuff. It really gives people the autonomy to do things on their own. And again, show, not tell. I think especially from the product perspective, I think the new prd, the product requirements doc, it's like this is not like a slide deck anymore, bro. It's like show me a working prototype, put your vision into pixels so that the rest of the team can experience it. I think what's gotten, what's worked really well for our team this year is rather than getting alignment across the four big areas of the company or waiting for some sort of review to check this off and get the designs pixel perfect or the comprehensive narrative on how this is going to fit into the other things we're doing, it's like, no go spike it. Let's make this work in production. Let's turn it on for what we call inner core. Like the 10 most senior people at the company, if they like it, it's like, yeah, then we'll have mandate to see it all the way to production and to the broader audiences versus I've just found that's been a great way to interface with engineers. I think they love spiking things. I personally love feeling it in production versus seeing it in designs or in hypotheticals. I think it to see your actual bitcoin flowing in and out or to see your hitting the traditional financial system in some other way based on all the sort of primitives that we have within the company, to me, that's super fun and exciting. And I think we're also seeing kind of like the blurring of different roles as a result. It's like designers can now code and product, people can now spin up Figma super easily and imagine things. And I've found that our team in particular has been operating super, super well by being super fungible, caring less about job title and which department are you in? It's like, dude, we're all bitcoin. We're all on this mission, we have these deadlines. And it's like I'm pulling in my data scientist to do some product work that's unaccounted for at the moment. I'm leaning in on my finance and strategy guy to do the groundwork to understand this new product that we want to do. So it's taken a village to do all this stuff at once, but I think my team's never been so tired, but I think they've never been so fulfilled as well. And that's what it's all about. That's proof of work.
- [57:53]
B
Yeah, I noticed you laughed a bit when Owen was introduced with his title because you're just like, ah, titles.
- [58:03]
A
I think there's a certain irreverence within bitcoin and within bitcoiners, period, and throughout the industry. But I think especially within our team, within Block as well, it's kind of like, oh, those guys never fully play by the rules or they just do what they got to do to get it done.
- [58:21]
B
Yeah, no, it's important. And I think taking a step back and really coming back to Block's involvement with bitcoin and making a bold stance, we want to make bitcoin everyday money. There's a lot of people in the traditional financial system in Washington D.C. that may see that somewhat aggressive, but it's incredibly refreshing to me because as I said, radicalized by the great financial crisis, WikiLeaks, Edward Snowden leaks, whatever it may be, made it clear to me there's a lot of corruption and we need to fix the system. And the fact that Block is willing to take a bold stance, like, hey, we're going to lean into bitcoin we want to make it everyday money. It's something that the United States and corporate culture is desperately missing and has been missing for some time. As people plant the flag down, say, we're going to be bold, we're going to go after this. We think there needs to be change. We're going to be the change we want to see in the world and hopefully it inspires other people. And you're saying other companies incorporating and like SoFi just announced they'll have buy sell capabilities. They're also using Spark in the back end to do some international remittance. I think it's certainly gotten to the point where in corporate boardrooms across the country, particularly with fintech and banking, the executives are bending the knee and saying, okay, this isn't going away. We need to figure out a way to incorporate it into that sense. Not that you need to give away any trade secrets to potential competitors, but what are some of the learnings, the hard learnings that your teams have had building on bitcoin that you think a lot of others may run into?
- [60:12]
A
Bitcoin is not easy to build on at all, period. And I think if we weren't so principled, if we didn't think that the immaculate conception and the lack of foundation and venture capitalists and coercion, that bitcoin's just free of all of that. It's the most neutral shipping. A lot of these features that I think we'd want to get to customers would be a lot easier if we just used X, Y or Z chain or if we just wanted to make a lot of money, we could turn on meme coins and all that.
- [60:49]
B
You know, I'm trying to.
- [60:51]
A
And so, like, it's been. It's painful sometimes to be principled. It's been. There's definitely been, like, times where people are, like, some people are pulling this way, some people are pulling that way. And I think it requires a really strong, principled, visionary leader like Jack. And I cannot tell you the amount of times that I've seen Jack had to have to, like, sit, do, say the hard thing and take the principled stand. Even when it's like, I'm like, really? But he's just so the man. And I'm like, eternally grateful for the way that he sets the tone for the company, that it makes it very easy to. To try my best in every situation to try to do the same. And so if there's one takeaway for people from this podcast is that Block Inc. Is here for the right reasons. We're always trying to do the right thing for Bitcoin and we're taking that bigger picture vision into it.
- [61:53]
B
Well, it may seem counterintuitive or it may seem like Block or any other company that's not incorporating anything outside of Bitcoin is leaving money on the table. But I mean at 10:31 we Yep, thank you venture capitalists. We do venture investing and we invest in companies focused on Bitcoin. And our thesis, our strategy is like, hey, this is a low time preference play. By focusing and dedicating our energy and time on Bitcoin, it may not be obvious to many people right now, but in the long run that's going to be the right strategic move. If you're able to focus, be hyper focused and not get distracted by the bells whistles and alarms of other distractions, as I was, I would define them in the industry. You're going to have a better product, a better business and be positioned better in the future.
- [62:48]
A
You know one thing I was reminded of by pavlonex this week as we rolled out payments was that in 2019 we were the at Spiral. We were the first donation ever to the BTCPay server team that like there's obviously good history behind that that most of your listeners know, but it's like a free and open source version of Bitpay and we decided to sponsor them even though they're like a direct competitor to like our payments business. But because we believe in the long term mission of Bitcoin, because we believe that a rising tide lifts all boats and that by being close to this project, by this project existing, by being able to learn from this project, I think the thesis back then was we'll be in so much better of a position to learn alongside them and then act when the time is right. And, and I think we're seeing that play out to some extent this week.
- [63:52]
B
Yeah, I mean another example from Spiral is LDK like the Lightning development kit built in Rust. I think that's another incredible example of hey, we're going to fund these open source developers to work on this development kit for this Lightning implementation and we're going to be able to leverage that. Not only is anybody going to be able to leverage that, but we'll also be able to leverage it to make our product better. To your point. And that's something that I think most people, particularly in Tradfi, Fintech when they're looking at bitcoin don't understand. Your point of a rising tide lifts all boats. The interoperability of Bitcoin, one company's innovation, like Square, you guys open sourced your cold storage, your sort of security model.
- [64:41]
A
Sub zero.
- [64:41]
B
Sub zero in the early days, like anybody could use that, including your competitors. But at the end of the day, if it's truly secure and robust, that's better for bitcoin at the end of the day because you don't have exchanges getting hacked or whatever it may be.
- [64:54]
A
Yep. And we ultimately think we need to bring the entire company in this direction, this more decentralized, this more open direction that's personified or epitomized by Bitcoin. But I think within the company on our bitcoin team, just last week, we actually open sourced some of our withdrawal, like the code that processes our withdrawals from cold storage. We open source that so that people could view that. And I think as far as I know, that's some of the first stuff we've done on Cash App. But we want our customers to have even more visibility into our internal systems so that they can know they can trust us as a company. We want to get to a place where our entire roadmap is open and viewable and commentable perhaps to the broader world, the broader bitcoin world. And so I think building in public is something we've really embraced at Block Inc. I think we can do an even better job. It's something that in the last few weeks in particular, we've been trying to do across the bitcoin projects for cash square, bitkey, etc. But my main focus now that we're obviously going to stay focused and deliver new things and enhancements on the Square work as well. We're going to be really focused on powering this flywheel of consumer awareness, adoption and compensation and incentives. But for me, going into next year, revitalizing Cash App, bitcoin in particular is going to be my top priority. I think our features have atrophied over the last couple years and we've, to be honest, we've on the cash up side, after years of tremendous, tremendous growth where we're just holding on for dear life, we've had to take things slower and patch some things up. And I think it's reflected in some of the care that we've given to our bitcoin customers. And I deeply regret some of that. And so looking to next year, it's going to be a total priority to bring back our best customers, to offer the best fees, the best experience, and bring in some new features that aren't available anywhere else. So for anybody watching Here that's been maybe used to use Cash App. Used to love Cash App and has maybe moved to somewhere else. This is my promise to you right now that this is top of mind. And bringing everybody back into the block ecosystem via Cash App is a huge, huge priority for me. That's my baby. And it was really fun to see people engaging and seeing a lot of excitement again from the map feature. So I think there's a ton of opportunity there and a ton of opportunity to show the benefits of the entire ecosystem. I also want to make Sure I plug BitKey's security upgrade last week.
- [67:57]
B
Oh yeah, Chaincode delegation.
- [68:00]
A
Yep.
- [68:01]
B
This is a big. I'll let you. I mean your company released it. I'm very excited about the products. I'll let you explain it.
- [68:09]
A
Well, without getting too deep in the details, basically, in most collaborative custody setups, you're trusting the company you're contracting with to be able to view your transactions. And with this, we introduce privacy from ourselves to give our customers more confidence that they can use their bitcoin without a private company and maybe as. As proxy, like the government or anybody else as well. It introduces real privacy without compromising the recovery guarantees that are so important to the whole bitkey ethos and mission. And there's a BIP that was put out, but we built this for ourselves and then again we want to give it back out to the community so that other setups can similarly benefit from it.
- [69:04]
B
Yeah, that's massive. I mean, I've talked to Michael Flaxman who's had this idea of sort of a blinded key path in a collaborative custody setup for years. And the fact that you guys launch it is massive. So two or three setup, as long as I have two of the three keys and I can move the bitcoin by myself, if I'm using BitKey block, cannot see that I'm receiving or sending Bitcoin fallback option, losing one of the keys. Need you guys to sign a transaction. Yes, you'll know what's included in that transaction, but the ability to maintain and preserve privacy up until that fail safe moment is a massive boon. And thank you guys for that for sure. And I know we're repressed for time in this office, but just what would you say, not only to the bitcoiners out there, but anybody who's within the block ecosystem, whether that's a cash app user, a square seller, those two particularly, who are unfamiliar with bitcoin, like, what would your pitch to them be to get more involved in the products around Bitcoin that you guys are launching.
- [70:13]
A
I mean, my favorite thing when talking to sellers, even if they're not like, they're like normies, they don't love bitcoin, but you talk to them about their current financial and treasury strategy, and you go like, wait, you're 100% dollars right now in this political climate? And you kind of like things click for people so much more than they did many years ago. People are feeling that instability in our economy, in our political system, in our institutions. And that was always kind of like the Bitcoin thesis 8, 10, 12 years ago. And for so many people, it's like, we're the world's greatest superpower. These institutions are forever. But I think a lot more people are feeling the fourth turning, like you said, or the changing of the guard, or the whispers of a new era kind of appearing. And I think starting small, get. It's like, okay, yeah, maybe 1% Bitcoin on my. On my treasury. Maybe it is good to hedge in this way. Maybe I should be diversified. Maybe I should be looking more deeply into this thing I keep hearing about and with the recent news, clearly is becoming foundational infrastructure of the entire economy. So I'd put it at that.
- [71:39]
B
Yeah, maybe we won't wait eight years to record the next podcast. But I'm really interested to see is like, the curiosity gap that's crossed just because you have this bitcoin brand touch in the square seller terminal. Just as a. As a seller, it's like, oh, there's this bitcoin thing here. Don't really care about it now. You come back to it, it's like, the bitcoin thing's still there. Like, how many nagging sort of seed reminders do before they're like, all right, I'll turn that on just a little bit. Just mess around with it.
- [72:07]
A
There's so much opportunity to tap into from this foundation and really, really, really pleased and honored to get to share this moment with you, Marty, after all these years. Because to me, this has been one of the best weeks of my life. Finally achieving this thing that we set out to do eight years ago of connecting the ecosystem with both the consumer and the merchant side.
- [72:35]
B
Most underrated man in bitcoin. Ladies and gentlemen, Miles. Thank you for your time. Thank you for all that you're doing. It is an honor and a privilege to call you a friend, sir.
- [72:44]
A
Thank you so much, Marty.
- [72:45]
B
Peace and love, freaks.
- [72:46]
A
Love you, bro.
- [72:47]
B
Love you, too. Thank you for listening to this episode of tftc. If you've made it this far. I imagine you got some value out of the episode. If so, please share it far and wide with your friends and family. We're looking to get the word out there. Also, wherever you're listening, whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify, make sure you like and subscribe to the show. And if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms, that goes a long way. Last but not least, if you want to get these episodes a day early and ad free, make sure you download the Fountain podcasting app. You can go to Fountain FM to find that $5 a month get you every episode a day early ad free helps. The show gives you incredible value, so please consider subscribing via Fountain as well. Thank you for your time and until next time.